January 14, 2025 • 28 mins
Letterboxd is a great tool for keeping track of movies and seeing what your friends and others are watching. But does constant logging, rating, and reviewing actually help us enjoy films? To find out, we spoke to Dr. Ruud Jacobs, who actually researched the impact of consumer movie reviews, and professional movie critic Tasha Robinson.
Dr. Jacobs' research can be found here, and you can hear Tasha on her own podcast, The Next Picture Show.
For more, visit www.nosuchthing.show
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
The show where we answer our dumb questions and yours
by actually doing the research. Today we're talking about letterboxed
and how it's changed the ways we watch movies, possibly
for the worst.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The part that freaks people out is.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
That, uh, maybe it's for people who are like staring
at TikTok or something.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
My god, everyone is so hot in this very.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
True that creeps me out.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
There's no no such thing, such thing, such thing.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
All right, so we all love movies, that's right.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, yes, accurate, and letterbox has many great uses. But
my concern is that turning movie watching into social media
data logging might hinder our.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
Engagement with the movies themselves.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So on this episode, I want to dig into how
we use letterboxed and try to find out what, if
any impact this has on our movie watching experience. Do
we like movies more or less by committing to this
cataloging and rating system. But first, let's back up in
case you have no idea what we're talking about. Letterbox
is a social media app for logging movies. It was
started by a couple of red designers in New Zealand.
(01:14):
Back in twenty eleven, but it saw a massive boost
in popularity during COVID, going from about one point eight
million users in March twenty twenty to roughly thirteen million today.
Over a billion movies have been logged on the app.
Users SKW younger, the largest age group on the app
being eighteen to twenty four, followed by the coveted twenty
five to.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
Thirty five set, of which we're proud members.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Still In twenty twenty three, when a majority stake was
sold to a Canadian company called Tiny, Letterbox was valued
at over fifty million dollars. The reputation Letterbox carries is
that ski is a little bit more indie or art
house versus something that's kind of more.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Broad like IMDb.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Our former colleague Graham was the inspiration for this episode
because his ratings are insane insane.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
They kind of lean.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
He leans pretty heavily on like the five are rating
versus something a little more modest.
Speaker 6 (02:03):
Yes, I love movies. I love to watch them. I'm
happy when I'm watching them. Sometimes, yes, they're disappointing, but thankfully,
for the most part of the movies that I choose
to watch usually make me very happy. And I'm sorry
if that offends people, but thank you so much for
having me and good luck, good luck.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Thank you Graham. Yeah, thank you Graham.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So to start off, how do you guys each use letterbox?
Speaker 7 (02:30):
I have some sympathy for Graham because I also have
a rating system that people think is crazy. I'm pretty
much grading the movie on how well it was made,
like the production quality of it, and also screenplay, apply
all that stuff. But then it does mean that like
a movie I didn't like that much will get a
high rating because I thought that they did they had
(02:52):
a vision.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, so you're not rating on your personal enjoyment as
much as the technical side. Yeah, Like I can acknowledge
that a movie was good without liking it, without having.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
To like it, But that's what your rating system is
based on.
Speaker 7 (03:04):
Yeah, Because then the part that freaks people out is
that that means some of my favorite movies end up
being like two.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
Star three stars.
Speaker 7 (03:13):
An example one of my favorite movies ever is the
second rush Hour movie Rush Hour Too.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
I don't even know why the hell.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
I mean, I ain't need chiny.
Speaker 7 (03:22):
I think it's hilarious, it's got good action sequences, But
you want me to grade the screenplay on that one's
like not good, it's like so that. So I'm like,
all right, as a movie, this movie's whatever. It's fine,
it's a two or three star.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
But so in your letterbox, you're giving your favorite movie
a two, two or three stars.
Speaker 7 (03:39):
In this instance, it would probably be like a three
star movie, two and a half three stars. It's not
a five star like bet one of the best movies
ever produced.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Okay, so I have I have the opposite rating system,
which is this is my letterbox. If we just rating
the quality of the movie, that's when you go read
the New York Times or some shit. I am not
rating the movie based on how beautiful it is or
what the sound makes is, or only in so far
(04:10):
as it connects with you exactly, because there's movies that
do all that stuff really well that I do not
find entertaining, and I actually think those movies are worse
than something that has tons of flaws or like that
plotline doesn't really make sense or whatever. But like I
don't know, connects emotionally for me. My rating system is
based on how much did I enjoy this movie? Yeah,
(04:30):
but there's two extremes to that too, right, I gave
Trapped five stars. I had a really good time this
whole concept to Trap, watching all the exits, checking everyone
that leaves. There's no way to get out of here.
It is not a five star movie. There are a
lot of issues with that movie. I also saw Cuckoo.
(04:52):
It was a horrible movie, and I was annoyed in
not having a good time, so that got like star
and a half. You could have a bad movie, like
the media movies. I'm giving those fives. That is the
most fun our twenty minutes I've had.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You know, in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
And then there's.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Stuff that is just really bad that you're like, oh
my god, what is just gonna be finished? At the
end of the year, I may have four or five
movies at the top level that I've given fives to.
Most of the movies I see are not getting fives.
But I also think most of the movies that I'm
seeing are just not three.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
I think when I look at ratings, maybe this is
because I'm a good citizen. I feel like my rating
system is in service of other people. Perhaps your review,
your five star review is Trap does not help me
at all. But that's okay. I don't think it needs
to do that. But that's what I try to do
with my ratings. But I'm not a critic on.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Read my ring because if you see me give Trap
five stars, you got to click in and Rew, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, but I know.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yeah, so what did you write for this?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
My first line is, and there's a heart on this one?
Speaker 7 (06:02):
Is a heart?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Do you do hearts? I don't do hearts. I don't
know what they are.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Really hearts will actually be helpful for you? Yeah, I
wrote this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. No notes.
Then I talk about specifics from the movie that don't
actually make sense. But yeah, it's very dumb.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
My system is I don't put a number rating on things.
I'll just heart something. There's no point in that. I
keep a watch list, which helps me if I just
want to throw a movie on.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
That's mainly how I use it.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I don't look at other people's things so much, except
for like what pops up when I open it. If
I see Devin's reviewed something or I've had after I've
seen something, I'm curious, like, oh, I wonder you know
if my friends have seen this, or what they think
or that sort of thing.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Aside from what I'm just.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Curious, like what the worst reviews of something?
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Or I'm not reading other random people's reviews really, so yeah,
I'll throw a heart on something if I like and
then otherwise I just if I didn't love it, then
there's no heart.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
And that's all.
Speaker 7 (06:57):
Here's a fun experiment because many of the movie we
log on letterbox, the three of us have seen together.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, I'm seeing the Killer here.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
If I'm effective, it's because of one simple fact.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
I don't give.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
What are your guys's reviews are rankings of the Killer?
I think we all had. We all came out thinking
pretty much the same thing, so it'd be interesting to
see how the reviews vary. I'm pretty sure that that
was a no heart from me because my immediate reaction
was low, but certain friends had such positive reactions. And
then afterwards I haven't rewatched it, but I then softened
(07:40):
on it in my mind.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
At least.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, I gave it a higher reviewed than I remember.
I gave it three stars.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
One issue I had was just the way the viewing
experience of seeing this movie.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You saw the para theater, horrible theater. Everyone's big ass head.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, It's like I didn't even notice was still a thing.
You go to movie theater and if you have to
be worried about the person sitting in front.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
Because you can't see.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
That's to say I gave it a higher rating because
I was like, part of the reason why I was
frustrated by this movie is just the way I was
watching it. But I thought it was like, Okay, yeah,
not probably not something I'm gonna watch again or even
really think about.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Our reviews weren't that far off. You had three.
Speaker 7 (08:17):
I had two and a half, and my review was
that it was really well made and underscores the value
of simplicity, but it didn't leave much of an emotional impression. Yeah,
the first twenty minutes or so would have been an
incredible short film.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeap, Yeah, that's fair enough.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
With these things in mind, do you think it changes
how you watch movies knowing you're gonna put a number
or a star rating on it.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (08:44):
I think the letterbox has become such a staple in
social media that like, when I go into a movie,
maybe subconsciously I am thinking about what I would say
in a letterbox review. I think that's been a change
in the past couple of years, especially when I was
watching Challengers, all the Challengers reviews, and I was like, Okay,
what am I going to say when I get.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Done with this spee? It's like reacting to the hype.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, Yeah, I definitely think about it. I think I
use it as a gauge for how much I'm liking
the movie. Especially when I don't like a movie, I
feel like I think about it more.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
I'm like, this is like and like during the movie.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, I think that's kind of part of what inspired
me to stop doing the Stars, because it was like,
why am I thinking about this at all?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Well, it only happens in movies where yeah, that's good
because otherwise you're just engrossed in the movie. But it's
usually when I'm like, okay, this is gone from the
two to one and a half, We're going to lose
another star if it keeps going for another twenty minutes. Yeah,
And especially like these last couple of bad movies I've seen,
I've like actively been like, all right, what star rating
(09:49):
are we at? And what did we just lose? Based
on how bad that scene? A constant yes, or like
sometimes I'm like, oh, you know what that was? Actually
pretty interesting. Wait, we had two and a half. Now
I don't love that. I do that, but it only
happens in movies where I'm not fully in a movie.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, even if you're thinking about it during it, do
you think it helps you engage with the work knowing
that you're going to do that versus Okay, you're not
going to raid anything. You're not going to do anything,
are you actually then just coming to terms on it
on its own, because I think part of what I
don't like is you end up automatically. Then you're doing
a comparison system where it's like, oh, well that's a
five star, so I guess this has to be a
five star, or then if not, and you don't care,
(10:28):
then it just looks ridiculous sometimes because it's.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Like, well, why is that five and this is three?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Even though this is great, And then I'm not actually
I'm just thinking about numbers and I'm turning a piece
of art into data basically instead of just like, oh, like,
this was very evocative of some feeling for me as
an actual thing, and it's like, why does it make
me feel that way?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Xyz whatever?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That's why?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
To me, it's like thinking and talking about it. That's
where the review part writing can help put that into words.
And even just like okay, whoever you saw the movie
with talking with.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Them out of bar afterwards.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
That's what I love when you can have the fun
where we're just picking it apart and plot holes or whatever,
and maybe my friend or someone has some idea and
so I didn't think about that, but I actually agree
or yeah, yeah, and so I think that that's kind
of more helpful for actually like engaging than like, well
that's three, you know, which is so reductive. But you
(11:24):
can easily do that and then deduce the number afterwards.
And I don't think it necessary. I don't think it
necessarily has to degrade the piece, but I think ultimately
turning everything into a ranking or a list is pretty harmful.
All right, So next I want to talk to a
researcher about how movie reviews and ratings might impact our
experience of a movie. And then I want to talk
(11:45):
to a movie critic about how they approach writing reviews,
assigning ratings, and.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
How they feel about letterboxed.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And for me, I want to start assigning some star
ratings some movies I've watched. Finally writing some reviews and
seeing how I feel about it.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Welcome to the dark side, Yeah, wish me to like.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
So I talked to a researcher from the Netherlands. His
name is Rude Jacobs. His master's thesis from twenty twelve
is titled Everybody's a Critic Influenceability of Motion Picture of
Valuations from expert and consumer reviews. Of course this was
a bit before Letterbox became so prominent, but his paper
looks at a few of the things that we were
talking about, as far as just how reviews and ratings
can impact your experience.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Here's how he explains it.
Speaker 8 (12:27):
So the paper was from quite a long time ago.
It was my master thesis back in the day actually,
and it's since been published. The paper was about trying
to understand if movie reviews create a more or less
interest in people to actually see those movies, and also
to change whether or not people are enjoying the movies
as they're seeing them. So I was trying to see
(12:49):
if if you read a movie review beforehand and then
you watch the movie, if you have a worse or
better time because of it. That was the main goal.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So the experiment went like this, five groups of people
or assigned to read either a professional positive review, a
professional negative review, a consumer positive review, or a consumer
negative review. And in this case, a consumer review is
the equivalent to a letterbox review. It's written by a
normal person, not a professional critic or something. Or they
were given no review at all. They were just given
(13:17):
some very basic information about the film without any evaluative statements.
Speaker 8 (13:21):
And we designed those reviews based on a short content
analysis of reviews that we found online, both on the
consumer side and on the professional critic side. So there
they took elements from reviews of that movie, and they
were kind of matched together in a way that fit
(13:42):
our manipulation, so that they are identical except for the evaluation,
and they're identical except for the tone professional or consumer.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So they were watching this short Spike Jones film I'm here,
great movie?
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Do you mean?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Recondryclusey can make it up? Says like it's kind of
an issue because the movie's just good. So it kind
of skews the results almost like they need to find
something maybe more middle of the road.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
But yeah, college staple.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So that's how they did the experiment, and these are
the results they found.
Speaker 8 (14:15):
So the only effect that we found was of a
negative consumer review. Those were the ones where the grade
went down from what we found in a control condition
to I think at one point out of ten lower
or something or zero point seven points out of ten lower.
And that was mostly because of the emotional engagement that
people had with the movie after reading the review, because
(14:38):
if they read a negative emotional review, they distanced themselves
from the movie. They did not allow themselves to be
engaged in the movie. And they were quite good at
seeing which of the reviews were kind of emotional and
which weren't. And they were also pretty good at guessing
what the grade was that the reviewer would have given
the movie based on just the narrative review without the
(14:59):
actual grade.
Speaker 7 (15:00):
So there's pretty clear evidence that reading a review paints
what your experience what the movie is going to be
if you read it beforehand.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And as you heard, he says, these negative, more emotional
reviews which are going to skew towards the consumer side,
So letterbox and other things are going to have more
impact than the more distant, sort of straight writing style
from a professional who's not going to probably try to
engage you on that yeah, intense level, as like this sucks,
you're wasting your time and money, Like a newspaper review
(15:29):
probably isn't going to talk about like the money you're
spending right to see a movie or something.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know when he's talking about there. Basically reading a
negative review makes it so that you go into the
movie not like already.
Speaker 9 (15:42):
Not invested, right, Yeah, like standoffish exactly, that you already
create a distance which rings true to me, right, Like
there are movies that if you hear about ahead of
time being particularly bad.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
You go in with the let me see what this
dumb ass movie is going to be, and like you
don't give it a ants to be sucked in.
Speaker 7 (16:01):
Yeah, a recent examples like I heard how people thought
Megalopolis was bad, and then I went to go see
it and I was like, yeah, that was bad.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
It's funny because for me, I feel like it goes
both ways, where in some level I hear something's trash
and then I'm like, oh, it can't be that bad, almost.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
The contrarian thing.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, So like Megalopolis and Joker Too are to both
movies that were totally disparaged by critics and normal people. Yeah,
I was like France for Coppola's a legend he can't
be totally worthless.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
Yeah, and you think one year of medical school entitles
you to plow through the riches of my Amersonian mind.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And then Joker not a movie I was that interested in,
but I saw and also did terribly box office wise
and critically, and I was like, well, this isn't as
horrible as you would think.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Maybe he did.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Mention that reading reviews afterwards can also impact your opinion,
even if you don't think so. So this is about
something called the third person effect.
Speaker 8 (16:58):
One of the things that I see is that people
who read reviews after watching a movie, they tend to
think that those reviews do not change what they thought
of the movie. So they feel like there other people
might be affected these by reading these reviews, but not
they themselves. This is called the third person effect. It's
very broadly found when you're looking at advertising research, that
(17:20):
kind of stuff, but I think it's also there a
lot for reviews. Many people in my friend group as well,
we had long discussions about whether or not people are
impacted by reviews, and they say, maybe the grade, maybe
the rating is what does it for me. But I
think it's actually even if you're reading a review before
or after that you change the way you think about
(17:41):
a movie if the review is compelling or if the
reviews has good arguments. But we are very bad at
admitting for ourselves when that is happening, and we tend
to say, oh, it's always been like that. I actually
always hated that movie, even though it came out of
it thinking that it's a really good movie.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Actually, certainly my feelings on movies have changed after reading
a review or talking to people.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Oh, for sure, have you had the opposite happen?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Do you think you come out of a movie thinking
you really like it and then someone's like, oh, this sucked,
and then you're like, oh, yeah, okay, it wasn't actually
that good.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
Yeah, because I'll be like, I won't fully flip my opinion,
but I'll be like, yeah, I can see how some
people think that's dumb. It's also subjective, yeah, of course,
but definitely it feels like your peers can influence how
you feel about something.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah, which is why I always write my letterbox review
first before I look at other people's reviews.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Oh interesting, you want a peer review?
Speaker 7 (18:35):
Yeah, I read reviews before I write mine. But like,
I don't think I've ever changed my mind, Like I'll
go into it knowing what I want to say, but
I just want I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
We need to do run a study on Manny's reviews.
So I also talked to a movie critic as I
was myself planning on writing some ratings and reviews, so
I talked to it Tasha Robinson. She's written and edited
at a bunch of outlets. Currently, she's the entertainment editor
at Polygon. She and some other critics have a great
(19:07):
movie podcast called The Next Picture Show. I asked as
far as her approach to star ratings. Here's what she
had to say about that.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
The rubric that I've always used and tried to get
other people to use is what was this movie doing,
Does it do it well? And is it worth doing?
And you know, if what the movie was trying to
do is sell toys and sells the toys pretty well,
that's probably a two and a half star review. If
all the movies trying to do is sell toys and
it does it badly, then we're probably looking at.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Like a star.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
If the movie makes you feel not only that you've
wasted your time, but then everybody who touched it in
any way is wasting their time. Then you can go
lower than that, But that kind of well I added
half a star for this and subtracted half a star
for this. That creeps me out. That just sounds like
the kind of person that walks into a restaurant and
puts ten dollars and ones on the table and looks
(20:02):
at the waitress and says, every time you make a mistake,
I'm taking a dollar off your tip. You get whatever's
left over at the end of the night.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Tasha mentioned a similar issue to me as far as
once you're reducing movies to a number grade, you kind
of end up with some weird, unfair comparisons that can
kind of paint you in a corner.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I certainly think a lot in terms of, well if
I if I give this three stars, what are people
immediately going to pull up from my past that I
gave two and a half stars too and say you
think that's just better of them?
Speaker 7 (20:30):
There.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
If somebody made me sit down in a locked room
with every movie rating that I've ever made and told
me to reorder the rankings until I found they were perfect,
I'd probably be in there for ten years and wouldn't
come out any happier than I am right now.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I have definitely had the issue where I've rated something
after watching it immediately, and then a couple days later
look at my letterbox and look at like the last
movies that I've watched, and I'm like, this movie was
definitely better than this movie. Yeah, have the same rating
or house is higher. I hate to admit it, but
I have changed ratings.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
You've edited them, yeah, yes, wow, retroactively.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Retroactively. It's not like I go back six months later.
It has to be within the same week for me. Yeah,
and after that it is what it is. Yeah, I'm
not like changing the older rating, I'm adjusting the new one.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I think a pro for consumer or letterbox reviews is
you're not in this promotional bind, even if you, as
a professional critic, don't want to be. It's like you
don't want to be punished quote unquote by studios or
whoever who are getting access to previews or other things.
Like there's obviously like a political element to how a
major website or publisher reviews things.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah, but I think there is also just the weight
to studio pressure aside, like there's a weight to writing something.
Don't at the end of the day's it's all art,
and if you're writing a review that could actively stop
people from experiencing this piece of like she says, art
for yourself. There's a lot of weight to that. Yeah,
(22:03):
there are obviously movies that we all seen that are
just like this is just despicable from beginning to end,
Like everyone involved should be ashamed. I think a lot
of people are putting in a good faith effort to
make something good and sometimes it just doesn't work out.
So it's like, like dunking on a movie could really
have a negative effect on something in a way that
(22:24):
us writing about it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So after taking in all this research and talking to
professional critic, I wanted to kind of do some reflection
on the movies I've seen recently.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I work without caring what happens to either of us.
So go back to the club, bear it all, and
stock the kind of people that you.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Enjoy Megalopolis, I found, is probably the movie I've wrestled
with the most as far as thinking about it, probably
because of all the lore I know he's been working
on this in different form since the eighties. I really
wanted to love it, but I for a movie that's
about grand ideas. I found it didn't really have many
great ones to back it up with. And there's some
really cool expressionistic stuff and some cool visuals, but a
(23:09):
lot of it is pretty hideous to me. I hope
to revisit it in a few years and maybe I'll
be able to get something more out of it. But
right now I've got to give it I think a
one point five.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Damn.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, he said a lot of it is pretty hideous
to me. That's crazy.
Speaker 7 (23:23):
I mean some of it was like green screen in
the basement quality, Like really.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
I haven't seen him, boy ad him.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
He's great. I mean, the performances are great.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Everyone's doing what they're asked to do, but it just
doesn't come together to me. Yeah. Yeah, And then when
you add in he's been working on it for fifty years,
it's like, this is this is your masterpick, you know
what I mean? And like then everyone throws out, oh,
it's one hundred and twenty million dollars.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
It's like it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Doesn't look great.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Look like that.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Yeah, let's hear a joker too, because that was one
that a lot of people hated.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So this is for joker. Fully, I'd do my life.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
I feel so alone anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm not a big superhero guy. I thought the first
Joker movie was totally fine. This one I was actually surprised,
based on maybe all the bad reactions. I thought it
was actually pretty thoroughly entertaining and interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I heard it was boring.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
A lot of it is rehashing the first movie and
a core ram sort of thing. And then I think
they underused Lady Gaga, who I think is a great
actor obviously a great singer.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
They don't do as much of the musical stuff as I.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Expected, honestly, and I wish they leaned in even further,
like if you're gonna do it, do it.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Instead it felt like one one foot out sort of thing.
And yeah, they do some bold choice as far as
the arc of Joker and what the Joker means to society.
Speaker 5 (24:40):
Not gonna be one I revisit.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
But I mean I kind of walked out of it like, oh,
that was actually pretty fun.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
I think I'd give it three stars.
Speaker 7 (24:47):
Wow, that's good care Okay, considering the rest of them,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Is that choice as good as Megalopolis? I don't really
know if I can say that, But now I was entertained.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
Interesting, and then it does end up you put a
number on it that you because they're so limited as
five options exactly. Yeah, you have to start thinking about
whether you did think it was twice as good as Meg.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Yeaholis and I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
All right, let's do what I've seen. Let's do Anura.
I am coming you.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
You do not annoy this guy Anora Again. I was
thoroughly engaged throughout. It does a great job of kind
of it moves really fast in the beginning, and then
it kind of traps you in one location for a
long time and then flips some.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Things on you. I thought the performances were great.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
There's some good actors who've never seen before and things,
so that was fun. And it has that good kind
of intensity. So I was kept on my toes in
that way, and I liked it. And I thought it
had a very strong, interesting ending that I wasn't necessarily expecting,
even though looking back it's obvious some of the things
that happened, but in a not in a bad way,
in a to me satisfying way that said, I'm not
dying to watch it.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Again or I'm not really mulling over it so much.
In my head. I guess for that reason.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I'll give it a.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Three as well.
Speaker 7 (26:05):
Now this is where the rating system gets interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, because it's that Joker.
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Too and Noura have the same rating and the Noah
review system.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Four and a half.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Four and a half.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yeah, I know, it's pretty good. Yeah, it was really good.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I think to me, if I think if I had
rated it right when I walked out, it would have
been higher. And I think just in the you know,
two weeks, I'm just not that drawn back to it now.
If I watched it again, I don't know if I
would gain so much more necessarily, Which doesn't mean it's
bad even It's just it's a movie.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Which is fine most movies are.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah. So I mean, after doing all this and writing
these reviews and doing the ratings, I still feel like
I end up painting myself into a corner of making
strange comparisons. But at the same time, it's kind of
like who cares? Is kind of my feeling. It's it's
it is kind of objectively fun to just say, like,
(26:58):
fuck it, that's a one point five, and it does
garner a much more intense reaction than kind of thoughtfully talking.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
Through my feelings on a movie.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
So for that reason, I am maybe leaning towards opening
it up and let a few reviews and ratings spray.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Do I think it's, you know, for the better of
my movie going? Probably not, but it's fine. And I think,
you know, you kind of need to let things go sometimes.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
And just let it rock.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, just let it right.
Speaker 7 (27:25):
And the other thing is like, I'm glad to hear
this because there is a very tiny community of us
who have been wanting to see reviews like we get
them in real life if we want them to see
them on the app more often. So I don't know,
I'm happy to hear this.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
I won't be starving you all anymore. So there's that.
And then we had a few reviews in this.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
If you want to hear a few more reviews, we
talk about the Substance and Manny's controversial Challengers review and
Gladiator two. We're gonna throw those up on our substack.
You already know, but go to www dot No Such
Thing dot show to subscribe and you can check that out.
No Such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman,
and Devin Joseph. The theme song is by Manny and
(28:06):
this song is by nine Inch Nails. Thank you to
our guests Rude Jacobs and Tasha Robinson.
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
The show where we answer our dumb questions and yours
by actually doing the research. Today we're talking about letterboxed
and how it's changed the ways we watch movies, possibly
for the worst.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The part that freaks people out is.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
That, uh, maybe it's for people who are like staring
at TikTok or something.
Speaker 3 (00:19):
My god, everyone is so hot in this very.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
True that creeps me out.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
There's no no such thing, such thing, such thing.
Speaker 5 (00:39):
All right, so we all love movies, that's right.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, yes, accurate, and letterbox has many great uses. But
my concern is that turning movie watching into social media
data logging might hinder our.
Speaker 5 (00:50):
Engagement with the movies themselves.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
So on this episode, I want to dig into how
we use letterboxed and try to find out what, if
any impact this has on our movie watching experience. Do
we like movies more or less by committing to this
cataloging and rating system. But first, let's back up in
case you have no idea what we're talking about. Letterbox
is a social media app for logging movies. It was
started by a couple of red designers in New Zealand.
(01:14):
Back in twenty eleven, but it saw a massive boost
in popularity during COVID, going from about one point eight
million users in March twenty twenty to roughly thirteen million today.
Over a billion movies have been logged on the app.
Users SKW younger, the largest age group on the app
being eighteen to twenty four, followed by the coveted twenty
five to.
Speaker 5 (01:31):
Thirty five set, of which we're proud members.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Still In twenty twenty three, when a majority stake was
sold to a Canadian company called Tiny, Letterbox was valued
at over fifty million dollars. The reputation Letterbox carries is
that ski is a little bit more indie or art
house versus something that's kind of more.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Broad like IMDb.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Our former colleague Graham was the inspiration for this episode
because his ratings are insane insane.
Speaker 5 (01:57):
They kind of lean.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
He leans pretty heavily on like the five are rating
versus something a little more modest.
Speaker 6 (02:03):
Yes, I love movies. I love to watch them. I'm
happy when I'm watching them. Sometimes, yes, they're disappointing, but thankfully,
for the most part of the movies that I choose
to watch usually make me very happy. And I'm sorry
if that offends people, but thank you so much for
having me and good luck, good luck.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Thank you Graham. Yeah, thank you Graham.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
So to start off, how do you guys each use letterbox?
Speaker 7 (02:30):
I have some sympathy for Graham because I also have
a rating system that people think is crazy. I'm pretty
much grading the movie on how well it was made,
like the production quality of it, and also screenplay, apply
all that stuff. But then it does mean that like
a movie I didn't like that much will get a
high rating because I thought that they did they had
(02:52):
a vision.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, so you're not rating on your personal enjoyment as
much as the technical side. Yeah, Like I can acknowledge
that a movie was good without liking it, without having.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
To like it, But that's what your rating system is
based on.
Speaker 7 (03:04):
Yeah, Because then the part that freaks people out is
that that means some of my favorite movies end up
being like two.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
Star three stars.
Speaker 7 (03:13):
An example one of my favorite movies ever is the
second rush Hour movie Rush Hour Too.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
I don't even know why the hell.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
I mean, I ain't need chiny.
Speaker 7 (03:22):
I think it's hilarious, it's got good action sequences, But
you want me to grade the screenplay on that one's
like not good, it's like so that. So I'm like,
all right, as a movie, this movie's whatever. It's fine,
it's a two or three star.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
But so in your letterbox, you're giving your favorite movie
a two, two or three stars.
Speaker 7 (03:39):
In this instance, it would probably be like a three
star movie, two and a half three stars. It's not
a five star like bet one of the best movies
ever produced.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Okay, so I have I have the opposite rating system,
which is this is my letterbox. If we just rating
the quality of the movie, that's when you go read
the New York Times or some shit. I am not
rating the movie based on how beautiful it is or
what the sound makes is, or only in so far
(04:10):
as it connects with you exactly, because there's movies that
do all that stuff really well that I do not
find entertaining, and I actually think those movies are worse
than something that has tons of flaws or like that
plotline doesn't really make sense or whatever. But like I
don't know, connects emotionally for me. My rating system is
based on how much did I enjoy this movie? Yeah,
(04:30):
but there's two extremes to that too, right, I gave
Trapped five stars. I had a really good time this
whole concept to Trap, watching all the exits, checking everyone
that leaves. There's no way to get out of here.
It is not a five star movie. There are a
lot of issues with that movie. I also saw Cuckoo.
(04:52):
It was a horrible movie, and I was annoyed in
not having a good time, so that got like star
and a half. You could have a bad movie, like
the media movies. I'm giving those fives. That is the
most fun our twenty minutes I've had.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
You know, in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
And then there's.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Stuff that is just really bad that you're like, oh
my god, what is just gonna be finished? At the
end of the year, I may have four or five
movies at the top level that I've given fives to.
Most of the movies I see are not getting fives.
But I also think most of the movies that I'm
seeing are just not three.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
I think when I look at ratings, maybe this is
because I'm a good citizen. I feel like my rating
system is in service of other people. Perhaps your review,
your five star review is Trap does not help me
at all. But that's okay. I don't think it needs
to do that. But that's what I try to do
with my ratings. But I'm not a critic on.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Read my ring because if you see me give Trap
five stars, you got to click in and Rew, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah, but I know.
Speaker 5 (05:56):
Yeah, so what did you write for this?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
My first line is, and there's a heart on this one?
Speaker 7 (06:02):
Is a heart?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Do you do hearts? I don't do hearts. I don't
know what they are.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Really hearts will actually be helpful for you? Yeah, I
wrote this is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. No notes.
Then I talk about specifics from the movie that don't
actually make sense. But yeah, it's very dumb.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
My system is I don't put a number rating on things.
I'll just heart something. There's no point in that. I
keep a watch list, which helps me if I just
want to throw a movie on.
Speaker 5 (06:26):
That's mainly how I use it.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I don't look at other people's things so much, except
for like what pops up when I open it. If
I see Devin's reviewed something or I've had after I've
seen something, I'm curious, like, oh, I wonder you know
if my friends have seen this, or what they think
or that sort of thing.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Aside from what I'm just.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Curious, like what the worst reviews of something?
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Or I'm not reading other random people's reviews really, so yeah,
I'll throw a heart on something if I like and
then otherwise I just if I didn't love it, then
there's no heart.
Speaker 5 (06:50):
And that's all.
Speaker 7 (06:57):
Here's a fun experiment because many of the movie we
log on letterbox, the three of us have seen together.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, I'm seeing the Killer here.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
If I'm effective, it's because of one simple fact.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
I don't give.
Speaker 7 (07:19):
What are your guys's reviews are rankings of the Killer?
I think we all had. We all came out thinking
pretty much the same thing, so it'd be interesting to
see how the reviews vary. I'm pretty sure that that
was a no heart from me because my immediate reaction
was low, but certain friends had such positive reactions. And
then afterwards I haven't rewatched it, but I then softened
(07:40):
on it in my mind.
Speaker 5 (07:40):
At least.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Yeah, I gave it a higher reviewed than I remember.
I gave it three stars.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
One issue I had was just the way the viewing
experience of seeing this movie.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You saw the para theater, horrible theater. Everyone's big ass head.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah, It's like I didn't even notice was still a thing.
You go to movie theater and if you have to
be worried about the person sitting in front.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
Because you can't see.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
That's to say I gave it a higher rating because
I was like, part of the reason why I was
frustrated by this movie is just the way I was
watching it. But I thought it was like, Okay, yeah,
not probably not something I'm gonna watch again or even
really think about.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Our reviews weren't that far off. You had three.
Speaker 7 (08:17):
I had two and a half, and my review was
that it was really well made and underscores the value
of simplicity, but it didn't leave much of an emotional impression. Yeah,
the first twenty minutes or so would have been an
incredible short film.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeap, Yeah, that's fair enough.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
With these things in mind, do you think it changes
how you watch movies knowing you're gonna put a number
or a star rating on it.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (08:44):
I think the letterbox has become such a staple in
social media that like, when I go into a movie,
maybe subconsciously I am thinking about what I would say
in a letterbox review. I think that's been a change
in the past couple of years, especially when I was
watching Challengers, all the Challengers reviews, and I was like, Okay,
what am I going to say when I get.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Done with this spee? It's like reacting to the hype.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, Yeah, I definitely think about it. I think I
use it as a gauge for how much I'm liking
the movie. Especially when I don't like a movie, I
feel like I think about it more.
Speaker 5 (09:17):
I'm like, this is like and like during the movie.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yeah, I think that's kind of part of what inspired
me to stop doing the Stars, because it was like,
why am I thinking about this at all?
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Well, it only happens in movies where yeah, that's good
because otherwise you're just engrossed in the movie. But it's
usually when I'm like, okay, this is gone from the
two to one and a half, We're going to lose
another star if it keeps going for another twenty minutes. Yeah,
And especially like these last couple of bad movies I've seen,
I've like actively been like, all right, what star rating
(09:49):
are we at? And what did we just lose? Based
on how bad that scene? A constant yes, or like
sometimes I'm like, oh, you know what that was? Actually
pretty interesting. Wait, we had two and a half. Now
I don't love that. I do that, but it only
happens in movies where I'm not fully in a movie.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, even if you're thinking about it during it, do
you think it helps you engage with the work knowing
that you're going to do that versus Okay, you're not
going to raid anything. You're not going to do anything,
are you actually then just coming to terms on it
on its own, because I think part of what I
don't like is you end up automatically. Then you're doing
a comparison system where it's like, oh, well that's a
five star, so I guess this has to be a
five star, or then if not, and you don't care,
(10:28):
then it just looks ridiculous sometimes because it's.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Like, well, why is that five and this is three?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Even though this is great, And then I'm not actually
I'm just thinking about numbers and I'm turning a piece
of art into data basically instead of just like, oh, like,
this was very evocative of some feeling for me as
an actual thing, and it's like, why does it make
me feel that way?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Xyz whatever?
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That's why?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
To me, it's like thinking and talking about it. That's
where the review part writing can help put that into words.
And even just like okay, whoever you saw the movie
with talking with.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Them out of bar afterwards.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
That's what I love when you can have the fun
where we're just picking it apart and plot holes or whatever,
and maybe my friend or someone has some idea and
so I didn't think about that, but I actually agree
or yeah, yeah, and so I think that that's kind
of more helpful for actually like engaging than like, well
that's three, you know, which is so reductive. But you
(11:24):
can easily do that and then deduce the number afterwards.
And I don't think it necessary. I don't think it
necessarily has to degrade the piece, but I think ultimately
turning everything into a ranking or a list is pretty harmful.
All right, So next I want to talk to a
researcher about how movie reviews and ratings might impact our
experience of a movie. And then I want to talk
(11:45):
to a movie critic about how they approach writing reviews,
assigning ratings, and.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
How they feel about letterboxed.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And for me, I want to start assigning some star
ratings some movies I've watched. Finally writing some reviews and
seeing how I feel about it.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Welcome to the dark side, Yeah, wish me to like.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
So I talked to a researcher from the Netherlands. His
name is Rude Jacobs. His master's thesis from twenty twelve
is titled Everybody's a Critic Influenceability of Motion Picture of
Valuations from expert and consumer reviews. Of course this was
a bit before Letterbox became so prominent, but his paper
looks at a few of the things that we were
talking about, as far as just how reviews and ratings
can impact your experience.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Here's how he explains it.
Speaker 8 (12:27):
So the paper was from quite a long time ago.
It was my master thesis back in the day actually,
and it's since been published. The paper was about trying
to understand if movie reviews create a more or less
interest in people to actually see those movies, and also
to change whether or not people are enjoying the movies
as they're seeing them. So I was trying to see
(12:49):
if if you read a movie review beforehand and then
you watch the movie, if you have a worse or
better time because of it. That was the main goal.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
So the experiment went like this, five groups of people
or assigned to read either a professional positive review, a
professional negative review, a consumer positive review, or a consumer
negative review. And in this case, a consumer review is
the equivalent to a letterbox review. It's written by a
normal person, not a professional critic or something. Or they
were given no review at all. They were just given
(13:17):
some very basic information about the film without any evaluative statements.
Speaker 8 (13:21):
And we designed those reviews based on a short content
analysis of reviews that we found online, both on the
consumer side and on the professional critic side. So there
they took elements from reviews of that movie, and they
were kind of matched together in a way that fit
(13:42):
our manipulation, so that they are identical except for the evaluation,
and they're identical except for the tone professional or consumer.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
So they were watching this short Spike Jones film I'm here,
great movie?
Speaker 5 (13:55):
Do you mean?
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Recondryclusey can make it up? Says like it's kind of
an issue because the movie's just good. So it kind
of skews the results almost like they need to find
something maybe more middle of the road.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
But yeah, college staple.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
So that's how they did the experiment, and these are
the results they found.
Speaker 8 (14:15):
So the only effect that we found was of a
negative consumer review. Those were the ones where the grade
went down from what we found in a control condition
to I think at one point out of ten lower
or something or zero point seven points out of ten lower.
And that was mostly because of the emotional engagement that
people had with the movie after reading the review, because
(14:38):
if they read a negative emotional review, they distanced themselves
from the movie. They did not allow themselves to be
engaged in the movie. And they were quite good at
seeing which of the reviews were kind of emotional and
which weren't. And they were also pretty good at guessing
what the grade was that the reviewer would have given
the movie based on just the narrative review without the
(14:59):
actual grade.
Speaker 7 (15:00):
So there's pretty clear evidence that reading a review paints
what your experience what the movie is going to be
if you read it beforehand.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And as you heard, he says, these negative, more emotional
reviews which are going to skew towards the consumer side,
So letterbox and other things are going to have more
impact than the more distant, sort of straight writing style
from a professional who's not going to probably try to
engage you on that yeah, intense level, as like this sucks,
you're wasting your time and money, Like a newspaper review
(15:29):
probably isn't going to talk about like the money you're
spending right to see a movie or something.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
You know when he's talking about there. Basically reading a
negative review makes it so that you go into the
movie not like already.
Speaker 9 (15:42):
Not invested, right, Yeah, like standoffish exactly, that you already
create a distance which rings true to me, right, Like
there are movies that if you hear about ahead of
time being particularly bad.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
You go in with the let me see what this
dumb ass movie is going to be, and like you
don't give it a ants to be sucked in.
Speaker 7 (16:01):
Yeah, a recent examples like I heard how people thought
Megalopolis was bad, and then I went to go see
it and I was like, yeah, that was bad.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
It's funny because for me, I feel like it goes
both ways, where in some level I hear something's trash
and then I'm like, oh, it can't be that bad, almost.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
The contrarian thing.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, So like Megalopolis and Joker Too are to both
movies that were totally disparaged by critics and normal people. Yeah,
I was like France for Coppola's a legend he can't
be totally worthless.
Speaker 6 (16:31):
Yeah, and you think one year of medical school entitles
you to plow through the riches of my Amersonian mind.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
And then Joker not a movie I was that interested in,
but I saw and also did terribly box office wise
and critically, and I was like, well, this isn't as
horrible as you would think.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
Maybe he did.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Mention that reading reviews afterwards can also impact your opinion,
even if you don't think so. So this is about
something called the third person effect.
Speaker 8 (16:58):
One of the things that I see is that people
who read reviews after watching a movie, they tend to
think that those reviews do not change what they thought
of the movie. So they feel like there other people
might be affected these by reading these reviews, but not
they themselves. This is called the third person effect. It's
very broadly found when you're looking at advertising research, that
(17:20):
kind of stuff, but I think it's also there a
lot for reviews. Many people in my friend group as well,
we had long discussions about whether or not people are
impacted by reviews, and they say, maybe the grade, maybe
the rating is what does it for me. But I
think it's actually even if you're reading a review before
or after that you change the way you think about
(17:41):
a movie if the review is compelling or if the
reviews has good arguments. But we are very bad at
admitting for ourselves when that is happening, and we tend
to say, oh, it's always been like that. I actually
always hated that movie, even though it came out of
it thinking that it's a really good movie.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Actually, certainly my feelings on movies have changed after reading
a review or talking to people.
Speaker 5 (18:04):
Oh, for sure, have you had the opposite happen?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Do you think you come out of a movie thinking
you really like it and then someone's like, oh, this sucked,
and then you're like, oh, yeah, okay, it wasn't actually
that good.
Speaker 7 (18:14):
Yeah, because I'll be like, I won't fully flip my opinion,
but I'll be like, yeah, I can see how some
people think that's dumb. It's also subjective, yeah, of course,
but definitely it feels like your peers can influence how
you feel about something.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Yeah, which is why I always write my letterbox review
first before I look at other people's reviews.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Oh interesting, you want a peer review?
Speaker 7 (18:35):
Yeah, I read reviews before I write mine. But like,
I don't think I've ever changed my mind, Like I'll
go into it knowing what I want to say, but
I just want I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
We need to do run a study on Manny's reviews.
So I also talked to a movie critic as I
was myself planning on writing some ratings and reviews, so
I talked to it Tasha Robinson. She's written and edited
at a bunch of outlets. Currently, she's the entertainment editor
at Polygon. She and some other critics have a great
(19:07):
movie podcast called The Next Picture Show. I asked as
far as her approach to star ratings. Here's what she
had to say about that.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
The rubric that I've always used and tried to get
other people to use is what was this movie doing,
Does it do it well? And is it worth doing?
And you know, if what the movie was trying to
do is sell toys and sells the toys pretty well,
that's probably a two and a half star review. If
all the movies trying to do is sell toys and
it does it badly, then we're probably looking at.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Like a star.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
If the movie makes you feel not only that you've
wasted your time, but then everybody who touched it in
any way is wasting their time. Then you can go
lower than that, But that kind of well I added
half a star for this and subtracted half a star
for this. That creeps me out. That just sounds like
the kind of person that walks into a restaurant and
puts ten dollars and ones on the table and looks
(20:02):
at the waitress and says, every time you make a mistake,
I'm taking a dollar off your tip. You get whatever's
left over at the end of the night.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Tasha mentioned a similar issue to me as far as
once you're reducing movies to a number grade, you kind
of end up with some weird, unfair comparisons that can
kind of paint you in a corner.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
I certainly think a lot in terms of, well if
I if I give this three stars, what are people
immediately going to pull up from my past that I
gave two and a half stars too and say you
think that's just better of them?
Speaker 7 (20:30):
There.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
If somebody made me sit down in a locked room
with every movie rating that I've ever made and told
me to reorder the rankings until I found they were perfect,
I'd probably be in there for ten years and wouldn't
come out any happier than I am right now.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
I have definitely had the issue where I've rated something
after watching it immediately, and then a couple days later
look at my letterbox and look at like the last
movies that I've watched, and I'm like, this movie was
definitely better than this movie. Yeah, have the same rating
or house is higher. I hate to admit it, but
I have changed ratings.
Speaker 7 (21:05):
You've edited them, yeah, yes, wow, retroactively.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Retroactively. It's not like I go back six months later.
It has to be within the same week for me. Yeah,
and after that it is what it is. Yeah, I'm
not like changing the older rating, I'm adjusting the new one.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
I think a pro for consumer or letterbox reviews is
you're not in this promotional bind, even if you, as
a professional critic, don't want to be. It's like you
don't want to be punished quote unquote by studios or
whoever who are getting access to previews or other things.
Like there's obviously like a political element to how a
major website or publisher reviews things.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Yeah, but I think there is also just the weight
to studio pressure aside, like there's a weight to writing something.
Don't at the end of the day's it's all art,
and if you're writing a review that could actively stop
people from experiencing this piece of like she says, art
for yourself. There's a lot of weight to that. Yeah,
(22:03):
there are obviously movies that we all seen that are
just like this is just despicable from beginning to end,
Like everyone involved should be ashamed. I think a lot
of people are putting in a good faith effort to
make something good and sometimes it just doesn't work out.
So it's like, like dunking on a movie could really
have a negative effect on something in a way that
(22:24):
us writing about it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So after taking in all this research and talking to
professional critic, I wanted to kind of do some reflection
on the movies I've seen recently.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
I work without caring what happens to either of us.
So go back to the club, bear it all, and
stock the kind of people that you.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Enjoy Megalopolis, I found, is probably the movie I've wrestled
with the most as far as thinking about it, probably
because of all the lore I know he's been working
on this in different form since the eighties. I really
wanted to love it, but I for a movie that's
about grand ideas. I found it didn't really have many
great ones to back it up with. And there's some
really cool expressionistic stuff and some cool visuals, but a
(23:09):
lot of it is pretty hideous to me. I hope
to revisit it in a few years and maybe I'll
be able to get something more out of it. But
right now I've got to give it I think a
one point five.
Speaker 5 (23:18):
Damn.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Yeah, he said a lot of it is pretty hideous
to me. That's crazy.
Speaker 7 (23:23):
I mean some of it was like green screen in
the basement quality, Like really.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
I haven't seen him, boy ad him.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
He's great. I mean, the performances are great.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Everyone's doing what they're asked to do, but it just
doesn't come together to me. Yeah. Yeah, And then when
you add in he's been working on it for fifty years,
it's like, this is this is your masterpick, you know
what I mean? And like then everyone throws out, oh,
it's one hundred and twenty million dollars.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
It's like it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Doesn't look great.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
Look like that.
Speaker 7 (23:53):
Yeah, let's hear a joker too, because that was one
that a lot of people hated.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
So this is for joker. Fully, I'd do my life.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
I feel so alone anymore.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm not a big superhero guy. I thought the first
Joker movie was totally fine. This one I was actually surprised,
based on maybe all the bad reactions. I thought it
was actually pretty thoroughly entertaining and interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I heard it was boring.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
A lot of it is rehashing the first movie and
a core ram sort of thing. And then I think
they underused Lady Gaga, who I think is a great
actor obviously a great singer.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
They don't do as much of the musical stuff as I.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Expected, honestly, and I wish they leaned in even further,
like if you're gonna do it, do it.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Instead it felt like one one foot out sort of thing.
And yeah, they do some bold choice as far as
the arc of Joker and what the Joker means to society.
Speaker 5 (24:40):
Not gonna be one I revisit.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
But I mean I kind of walked out of it like, oh,
that was actually pretty fun.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
I think I'd give it three stars.
Speaker 7 (24:47):
Wow, that's good care Okay, considering the rest of them,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Is that choice as good as Megalopolis? I don't really
know if I can say that, But now I was entertained.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
Interesting, and then it does end up you put a
number on it that you because they're so limited as
five options exactly. Yeah, you have to start thinking about
whether you did think it was twice as good as Meg.
Speaker 5 (25:10):
Yeaholis and I don't.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
All right, let's do what I've seen. Let's do Anura.
I am coming you.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
You do not annoy this guy Anora Again. I was
thoroughly engaged throughout. It does a great job of kind
of it moves really fast in the beginning, and then
it kind of traps you in one location for a
long time and then flips some.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Things on you. I thought the performances were great.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
There's some good actors who've never seen before and things,
so that was fun. And it has that good kind
of intensity. So I was kept on my toes in
that way, and I liked it. And I thought it
had a very strong, interesting ending that I wasn't necessarily expecting,
even though looking back it's obvious some of the things
that happened, but in a not in a bad way,
in a to me satisfying way that said, I'm not
dying to watch it.
Speaker 5 (25:55):
Again or I'm not really mulling over it so much.
In my head. I guess for that reason.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I'll give it a.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
Three as well.
Speaker 7 (26:05):
Now this is where the rating system gets interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, because it's that Joker.
Speaker 7 (26:10):
Too and Noura have the same rating and the Noah
review system.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Four and a half.
Speaker 5 (26:15):
Four and a half.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Yeah, I know, it's pretty good. Yeah, it was really good.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I think to me, if I think if I had
rated it right when I walked out, it would have
been higher. And I think just in the you know,
two weeks, I'm just not that drawn back to it now.
If I watched it again, I don't know if I
would gain so much more necessarily, Which doesn't mean it's
bad even It's just it's a movie.
Speaker 5 (26:34):
Which is fine most movies are.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah. So I mean, after doing all this and writing
these reviews and doing the ratings, I still feel like
I end up painting myself into a corner of making
strange comparisons. But at the same time, it's kind of
like who cares? Is kind of my feeling. It's it's
it is kind of objectively fun to just say, like,
(26:58):
fuck it, that's a one point five, and it does
garner a much more intense reaction than kind of thoughtfully talking.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
Through my feelings on a movie.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
So for that reason, I am maybe leaning towards opening
it up and let a few reviews and ratings spray.
Speaker 7 (27:13):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Do I think it's, you know, for the better of
my movie going? Probably not, but it's fine. And I think,
you know, you kind of need to let things go sometimes.
Speaker 5 (27:22):
And just let it rock.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah, just let it right.
Speaker 7 (27:25):
And the other thing is like, I'm glad to hear
this because there is a very tiny community of us
who have been wanting to see reviews like we get
them in real life if we want them to see
them on the app more often. So I don't know,
I'm happy to hear this.
Speaker 5 (27:38):
I won't be starving you all anymore. So there's that.
And then we had a few reviews in this.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
If you want to hear a few more reviews, we
talk about the Substance and Manny's controversial Challengers review and
Gladiator two. We're gonna throw those up on our substack.
You already know, but go to www dot No Such
Thing dot show to subscribe and you can check that out.
No Such Thing as produced by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman,
and Devin Joseph. The theme song is by Manny and
(28:06):
this song is by nine Inch Nails. Thank you to
our guests Rude Jacobs and Tasha Robinson.
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