May 6, 2025 • 34 mins
Our whole lives, we’ve been told the pullout or withdrawal method is not a legitimate form of birth control and a fast-track way to becoming a parent. Some have even referred to it as the pull-and-pray method.
But reproductive health researcher Andréa Becker makes the argument that the pullout method “is not the enemy of public health it’s been made out to be” if done correctly.
Pre-order Andréa’s book Get It Out: On the Politics of Hysterectomy.
For more, check out our newsletter at www.nosuchthing.show, and if you have an argument you want us to settle, email us at mannynoahdevan@gmail.com.
Like this episode? Check out Episode 3: Why are slurs making a comeback?
Original music for this episode produced by Zeno Pittarelli.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Manny and this is Devin, and this is no
such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments
in yours by actually doing the research. Today we're talking
about sex ad birth control in the case for pulling out.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,
but nobody wants to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Thank thank all Right, fellas, this is gonna be an
interesting one. Uh scared. We we as a friend group,
do not do a lot of locker room talk like
our like our president. So we'll try to keep this
(00:48):
a little PG. Thirteen. Yes, if you're listening with young children,
I'm glad they're a fan of the show. But maybe
they should skip this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Or maybe they should keep listen where they.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Can listen to it. And then at the end we'll
they actually should have skipped it.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's too late now, so.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Let's start the conversation here. Have either of you had
the talk? No, no, this is crazy, not from parents,
So neither of you had the talk with your parents. No, no,
didn't come up.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, don't worry about this ship. Yeah, your parents were like,
you're not gonna have to worry.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I did have the conversation with my dad. I had
to be I was young. I had to be like ten,
nine or ten. It was you know, it was a
very top level conversation. Did so growing up? What was
the conversation around like birth control contraceptive did you guys?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Was it just through school?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Dude?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Your parents weren't like, hey, make sure you stay safe? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
It was mostly through school, and we we were in
one in a neighborhood that school, like public school systems
were like, we really got to beat it out of
these kids specifically, so we had that kind of sex
said that was like everyone, get a ring. You are
now a little bit. It was all like abstinence. They
sent us home with the baby dolls that yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
You know they do that on Love Island.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Come on Beautiful Baby Boy, Cry maybe you and they're
like twenty something and that show. Yeah, yeah, I was,
I must have been thirteen or something.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
How was that experience for you?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I remember it, like, you know, I don't think it
works as nearly as well as the programs think it does,
because you know, it's not real. It's a fake doll.
I like hit it under some pillows and like cover
so I didn't hear it crying. It really was like,
I know, mean girls has a scene like this, but
then they're parioding the kind of sex at that I got,
which is like, if you even touch someone, you're gonna die.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I guess we'll never know what I missed on that
first day of health class.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And uh yeah, it was not very effective because in
my seventh grade uh school trip to d c to
the kids were going off in the back of the
bus on the bus and she got pregnant. Wait they
were wait going off Okay, but anyway, like that was
(03:43):
one of the schools I think where they went hard
on like sex heads.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Because they were about teenage pregnancies.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, and it just kind of backfires, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I mean, you know, it was all abstinence based though
there wasn't any talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
It wasn't like if you're gonna have sex, do this
and this and this. It was all like, don't even
touch each other.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Look at it.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Yeah, Okay, I really I remember doing like health class.
I really don't remember any sex said except for like
we watched a baby being born video.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, but like I don't.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I really don't remember anything. It certainly wasn't like abstinence education.
I don't remember anything about like like you see in
movies or whatever, like they're putting a condom on a banana.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Abstinence wasn't something that stressed. I don't remember. In school,
sex head was very sort of like anatomy based. A
lot of the conversation was around anatomy, right, So it
wasn't really like real world here's what's gonna happen, here's
what you should do, but it was like a big
fear of like pregnancy, like you know, both in school
(04:43):
and outside of school, was just like, yeah, you're too
young to be having sex, but if you are going
to be having sex, make sure you're using protection.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yeah, because you not want it's too pronged. Yes, you
shouldn't do it, but if you are, yes, here's what
you should be doing.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
I kind of what I remember is more just learning
about how someone becomes pregnant, like as far as like
looking at diagrams and like parts, more than like like
reproductive yeah more yeah, just like more reproductive health than
like education on like how to, yeah, how to do
how to or how not to.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
As we hear from Manny he had friends at a
young age that were sexually active. What was the sentiment
amongst your friends when you were kids around sex and protection, Like,
were people talking about using condoms, already talking about not
using condoms, already talking about other methods of birth control? Like,
for example, I remember in high school the kids who
(05:41):
were in sort of like long term relationships talking about
how their girlfriends were on the pale so they did
not use condoms.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Yeah, I remember, I remember stuff like that. I don't
remember much like anti condom sentiment. I think there wasn't
enough in my circles going on for it to be
like cool to not like it's like all right, if
you're going to do it, then you'd use this and
that's that's great.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I think there were I remember certainly, you know a
few people who like wanted to seem cool or whatever
edge you're talking about how, oh my god, it's way
better without a.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Condom or whatever.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That went on throughout high school, yeah, and even college.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Okay, so this brings us to the topic that we're
going to talk about for today's episode, the pullout method.
Do you remember anything specifically about the pullout method? As
a kid, I guess I'll start. I remember hearing as
a kid, don't do that. It's bad. Yeah. Yeah, pull
(06:45):
out method is is not safe. Even before you finish.
There may be some things that come out that could
think perhaps pre yes, it just.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Takes one second, just takes one second.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah. And it's also like, hey, you don't know when
it's gonna happen, do you don't have It was a
lot of like, you can't trust yourself to do this. Yep,
don't put yourself in a situation where you have to
do that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Essentially, I remember in part of the abstinence program that
they had us do uh talking about how pulling out
is not going like you think you're safe, but you're not.
So don't think that this is a you know, a
way you can get out of it. Get around them.
You're still gonna have a baby that's gonna be crying
all night and your parents won't help you.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And yeah, you're gonna have to drop out of school.
Your life is gonna be ruined. You're not gonna go
to college, not to be successful, You're gonna be poor.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah yeah, and I and I remember them saying it.
But also I was believing it too. Yeah, sense I
was like, damn, yeah, okay, there's some science here that
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Sounds right to me, or I might argue, yeah, yeah,
I'm not going to be the one.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Exactly, I'm not righting the research lab on this.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
No, what if I told you that the pull out method,
according to this article, is as effective as male condoms
when used correctly.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
As effective. I'm very surprised to hear that. I'd I'd
be scared i'd be able to tell you that.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Let me be accurate. The article says about as effective.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Okay, okay, about as effective. That surprises me. I could
you know, I can tell you that it is effective
and based on experience, but I would never argue that
it's about as effective as I always thought. You know,
there's a pretty big risk.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, I guess I.
Speaker 5 (08:48):
I'm curious to hear it out. Am I gonna personally
recommend this to someone asking me for, you know, sex advice,
which happens often.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Not not at.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
This point, but let's hear him out.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So we'll be sitting down with the author of this
Slate article, the Case for pulling Out, Andrea Becker. That's
after the break Hey, do you have a conspiracy theory
that no one in your life can convince you is fake? Well,
(09:24):
send us a voice memo at Manny Noah Devin at
gmail dot com and we may feature you in our
upcoming episode. And by the way, we'll just do this
now so we don't have to do it again in
the credits. But if you're a fan of this show,
go right now. It's it's a break, so you have
time rid us five stars and share it with a
(09:44):
front All right, back to the show. Okay, we're back.
I'm Manny, I'm Noah Devin. And in the studio today
we have Professor Andrea Becker. She is a sexual reproductive
(10:07):
health researcher. She's a professor and most importantly, a friend
of the pod.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
True.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Welcome, Welcome, it's great to have you.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Great to be here.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
And thanks for pretending that this is a studio, not
my living.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
It's a studio to me. These lights, studio lights, it's
right lights.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And you have a.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Book coming out, and I have a book coming out.
It's called Get It Out on the Politics of Hysterectomy.
It's out in July, but available for pre order now.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
So Professor last year for Slate, you wrote an article
titled the Case for pulling Out. First of all, do
you stand by that absolutely? You know, just wanted to
make sure. So what was you know, the inception of
(11:03):
this article. What was the first time you thought about
pulling out.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I've been thinking about pulling out since I was in
high school, I guess. Academically, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, academically awesome.
So I was in an honors anatomy class, and I
guess our teacher was a pretty radical guy, and he
told us about the female reproductive cycle and how there's
(11:34):
only three to five days where you can actually get pregnant.
And I didn't know that, especially compared to the abstinence
only sex education that I had had. This was in
North Carolina. They basically say, don't have sex, and we
won't explain anything further. Our teacher also implied that if
you are even naked in the same room, you could
get pregnant, and she didn't elaborate further, so I didn't
(11:58):
know what she meant for many years.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I got like vibes based intercourse.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
No clue.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Still, I wish I remembered her name so I could
ask her. But yeah, so figuring out that there's only
five days out of the month where you can feasibly
get pregnant, and he said that he himself and his
wife had relied on pulling out and that it worked.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Did he use that phrase specifically?
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I believe so, though I will.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Say that in the research it's referred to as the
withdrawal method or my favorite coitus interruptis is hoitus interrupted?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
That sounds like I'm like a kid made up.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
That's Harry Potters.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. JK. Rowling came out with that one.
So you were told this in high school and then
it was sort of on your mind and you wrote
this article. So you've been thinking about it this entire time?
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Or did this something recently happen that you're like, oh
my god, I'm remembering my high school teacher talking about
pulling out.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
No. Nothing, well, I guess getting into the space of
sexual and reproductive health researchers, I noticed that there was
a big divide among researchers and providers about withdrawal. So
some are very adamant that it's part of like sexual
and general autonomy, that you should be able to learn
(13:18):
about this method, that you should be taught the right ways.
And then there are a lot of providers and researchers
who say that it's not a form of birth control,
that it's really irresponsible to even talk about it. There's
a lot of really stigmatizing language around it.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
So some people still.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Call it the pull and prey method, as if you
need to use it in conjunction with religious practice, that
God needs to intervene in order for it to.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Work, okay, because it's so unreliable.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Most recently, someone that I really admire, a professor, said
something like, oh, you know what we call people who
pull out parents m So even researchers.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
With this is I hate to say, but that's a
bar It is a bar line. They're wrong, but it's
a great line.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
So okay, that's the like you're saying, that's researchers. What
has been the vibe with just like your friends and associates?
Is that a simil Because we were talking about earlier.
I think it's a similar sentiment of just like pulling
out like worst case scenario, but like that's not plan A.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,
but nobody wants to talk about it. And so even
within researchers. Interestingly, so the there is a reproductive health
conference that I go to every year. It's like a
really large conference, and one of the researchers who attends
every year did a survey with the various members. I
(14:53):
think she surveyed over three hundred people about the various
contraceptive methods that they use, and around seventy six percent
said they relied on withdrawal.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Why so it's the same people counseling patients to not
use it and writing papers about how everyone needs to
be on the IUD they're they're pulling out. Around sixty
five to sixty six percent of the population rely on withdrawal,
and this is about equal among young people in adolescents
as well. But a lot of people use in conjunction
(15:24):
to other methods, So they're using withdrawal and also using
condoms or using withdrawal and birth control. So there's responsible
ways to use it, and it doesn't mean you're it's
your only method necessarily, So that's okay.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
That makes that number make a little bit more sense
to me. How much So sixty five percent of people
are saying they just use withdrawal period but some combination
OLiS people are using withdrawal and combination with maybe birth
control or condoms.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
But in terms of your primary form of birth control,
the latest data from twenty twenty three, so two thirds
of women have at least at some point relied on
withdrawal as their primary form of birth control.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
So we now know how many people rely on pulling out,
but I want to know how effective it actually is.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Okay, So in a large national study, eighteen percent of
couples who solely rely on withdrawal will have an unplanned pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
That's anonomy. So what we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
The condoms is seventeen percent.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Oh yeah, correctly.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm not doing this anymore. So these numbers that Dray
is referencing actually come from a two thousand and eight
paper published in the journal Contraception. The researchers looked at
a bunch of studies and found that with typical use,
so you know, not getting it perfectly right every single time,
(17:02):
eighteen percent of couples who rely on a pull out
method could expect to get pregnant within a year. With
typical use, seventeen percent of couples who rely on condoms
can expect to get pregnant within a year, and if
you're using these methods perfectly. So let's say with the
pull out method, the person with a penis pulls out
every single time for ejaculating. Only four percent of couples
(17:27):
relying on a withdrawal method can expect a pregnancy within
a year, and with perfect condom use only two percent
of couples can expect a pregnancy within a year.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
What is perfect? U?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah? Yeah, what does that look like? Because I think
we all have an idea in our mind, right, but
you were talking about even days that you can get pregnant.
So yeah, if this is my primary form of a contraception,
what am I doing?
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
So there definitely needs to see some communication between partners
and so generally the semen should come nowhere near the
person's vagina, and then if there are multiple rounds of
sex happening, the person needs to urinate in between because
(18:18):
the person with the penis.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Good question.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think everybody, probably.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Everyone should be after sex.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
As I'm learning from you know, Hannah Horror asks and girls,
it is important to pe after sex.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
It is you can get a U t I if
you don't did yes.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And with men Hannah Horror from Girls.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Made putting the show called Girl Girls.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
A couple of seasons.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
But so after ejaculating, sperm can live in the urethra,
and so urinating can will kill those spurs, like flush
it out.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And push out, So you're gonna clean up eviction p
if you're doing multiple rounds both for UTIs and pregnancy purposes.
Everybody just go pee?
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Yes, everybody just go pee?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Is really good. And then is there a window where
you should be doing this?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You're talking about there's like three or four days where
a woman there's the only window that a woman can
get pregnant. And now that I think about it, I
did know that because when people are trying to get pregnant,
they're like, oh, I'm in my window. We gotta go.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
It's interesting because women and men tend to only learn
about this window when they're trying to get pregnant. We
don't teach people this when they're trying to not get pregnant.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Wow, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So around two weeks after your period, so right in
the middle of your cycle, you ovulate, and so generally
five days before ovulation and the day after you shouldn't
have unprotected sex. With the idea that maybe there's sperm
in the person's pre com.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yes, this is one of the primary reasons why I
have historically been told to not due to pull out method. Right,
it's like whatever, you think, you got it under control,
but you may pre come. Yeah, can a woman actually
get pregnant from pre com?
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Really good question.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So pre com doesn't necessarily have sperm in it, okay,
but some people maybe have a little bit of sperm
in their pre com. So semen is the general fluid
that comes out during ejaculation, okay, and sperm is the
sex cells within there.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
The likelihood is lower, but it only takes.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
One sperm okay. And of course there's really limited research
on this. There's a few studies on it, some of
them they're typically really small numbers of men that they sample.
But we need a huge national longitude survey of pre come.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
If I was the.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
One, if I was setting the agenda for research, I
would be doing that.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
So I guess what is your kind of response to
our middle school teachers who are like, pre come will
do it. I hear you're not necessarily disagreeing with that,
But in terms of pulling out as a contraceptive method.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, I think I understand why public health professionals and
sex and teachers don't want young teenagers to know about
withdrawal as a legitimate form of contraception, because if it
has even higher rates of failure, that's you know, however,
(21:47):
many kids that are getting pregnant they don't want to,
and so on like a national scale, that's a lot
of people getting pregnant when they don't want to. Yeah,
but if you teach people or the proper technique, the
right knowledge about their cycle, so yessch pre com can
get you pregnant, but not if you're not ovulating. So
(22:11):
if you're ovulating, we're a condom.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
So basically they're saying they're wanting to be basically misleading
for our better good. But you're saying, actually, the best
way to do that is be as transparent as possible.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, knowledge is power.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
There's also just like a mistrust that people will use
birth control methods correctly at all. So there's this huge
bias within sex, said within medical practitioners where they want
patients to use the.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Most effective methods.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So they want people to use IUDs because there's very
little room for user error. The doctor places the device
and then that's it. So with a pill, you can
forget to take it, you can take at the wrong time.
With withdrawal, you can accidentally not pull out or do
it the wrong time of the month. And so there's
(23:08):
this huge bias towards just pushing these really high, highly
effective methods even if patients don't want to use it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But I feel like to that point, condoms, there's a
lot of room for error there, and that's always the
like even more than you know, I feel like IDs
are more recently and I feel like even when people
are a bit older, but early on, I feel like
it's just like condoms, condoms, condoms, condoms like the only
form of birth control. Obviously they talk about women being
on the pail, but even still, it's like women on
(23:38):
the pail plus condoms, Right, Like, why is condoms always
the thing that's being talked about as like so effective.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, that's because condoms is the only thing that will
prevent STI transmission. And so that's some pushback I get
about withdrawal that if we say that withdrawal is an
acceptable form of contraception, then STI rates will increase. But
other than condoms, no other birth control prevents SDI transmission.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Okay, so we talked a little bit earlier too about
how we had different experiences in school about education. You know,
many grew up in Ohio, know, in Connecticut, me in
New Jersey. What is like sort of like the state
of sex education in the US, because we all learned
(24:35):
different things.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, so across the country, there's a really wide range
of what is mandated by the state. There's no federal guidelines,
so in some there has to be sex education, and
others there is no mandate on that, and some it
has to be medically accurate, and some they have to
teach about consent or LGBTQ sex.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
But so it really varies across which state you're in.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
It is crazy conversations in school about consent, at least
until you get to college, then they talk a lot
about consent. But in high school there was very little
to no conversations about consent. Consent. I get maybe it's
more of a thing now, but I feel like consent
was not a conversation even amongst friends or like family members,
(25:18):
like yeah, well, pleasure. I guess part of the issue is,
like I feel like so much of the conversations around
sex are about not getting pregnant. And it's not about pleasure.
It's not about like you know, like pleasuring your partner.
It's all about don't get pregnant, try not to do it.
(25:39):
If you are going to do it, try to be
safe about it. And like there's yeah, none of these
other aspects of it. You just sort of like figure
it out.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Yeah, that isn't changed with so in research.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Also, the way that demographers and public health researchers talk
about birth control, you'd think that people have sex to
test the effectiveness of different birth control. Like it's almost
radical to talk about pleasure as part of.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Birth Yeah, like does this feel good? Yeah, because I'm
not going to use it if it doesn't feel good,
because that's why I'm having sex.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
So, Jenny Higgins in Wisconsin is one of the only
researchers I know who is asking people about sexual pleasure
and what birth control they use.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Oh wow, So let me ask you this because you know,
I know you wrote this last year. I would say
within the last couple of years, there's been a lot
of backlash to the pill. You know, I think some
women have complained about the side effects of the Hell,
we know that in a lot of right wing circles.
They've sort of hijacked that movement to be like, no,
(26:41):
no woman should be on the pill. It's horrible for
every single woman. You shouldn't be using this as a
form of birth control. There have been lots of conversations
about will conservatives in this country take away women's ability
to get the pill period as a form of birth control.
So how much of this sort of research urgence of
you know, pulling out is in response to the current
(27:04):
state that we're in, not to even mention, you know,
abortion in this country and how it's so much harder
for people to get abortions now. I could see people saying, Hey,
I don't want to have any risk because if I
live in Texas and I'm using the pull out method
and it goes wrong, I can't just get an abortion pill.
I can't just go, you know, to a planned parenthood
(27:26):
and have an abortion. What's your response to that?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So withdrawal isn't for everyone, So you should only use
it if you are ambivalent about getting pregnant. So if
it would be okay with you to have a pregnancy,
that's great, Or if you have access to terminating a
pregnancy that you wouldn't want to have, then maybe you'll
be comfortable with withdrawal. But if you know, if you
(27:55):
live in Texas, as you said, and you don't want
to be pregnant, it's way. So I'm not saying everyone
should be pulling out. Everyone should be able to have
the choice for what birth control they want. So some
people love their IUD, some people love their birth control pill,
some people love pulling out. And the number one reason
for why someone is satisfied with their birth control method
(28:18):
is sexual satisfaction. And then in terms of the backlash
against hormonal methods, we're seeing us horseshoe theory because for
decades women have been saying no on the left have
been saying we need better hormonal birth control methods, we
need better birth control.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Methods in general.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
There's all of these side effects, and now we're also
seeing right wingers saying hormonal.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Birth control is bad.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, so we're all coming at the same conclusion from
different sides. But it's true that we need a lot
more research and investment into more types of birth control
for women and also for men, which right now we
don't have a single form of male birth control on
the market in the US, besides condoms and vsectomy.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, why can't we take the pill.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
We can't take the pill because the medical industry in
the US one doesn't think men.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Will take it.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
A lot of women don't trust.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I wouldn't trust the god to take no damn pill.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
The people think there's no market for it, and so
rather than letting men make the decision, we just won't
put it on the market. And then when we've had
clinical trials around the male birth control pill in the US,
trial monitors shut it down because.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
They thought the side effects were too extreme side effects.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You know, the side effects were almost identical to the
ones that women deal with, so moodiness, lower libido, depression.
Hormonal birth control does that for women, but no trub
monitor shut that down.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Well, professor, that was very informative. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Thank you so much for having me when a professor,
a doctor and a friend and a friend most important.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
All right, well we'll be back after the break. All right, fellas,
we just learned a lot. Now. I feel like we
just did like ten years of sex ed in about
twenty five minutes.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yeah, I mean that was, I mean, certainly more useful
than my sex ed classes in middle school where we
didn't learn anything. Yeah, yeah, the absence except for that
we shouldn't have sex, don't.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Do it all? Right after hearing from Dre, how are
we feeling about the pull out method?
Speaker 5 (30:52):
In some ways better? But also I wouldn't say worse,
I feel worse about other methods. I suppose, Yeah, like
the that's my The fact that the condoms and the
pull up method were essentially essentially tide makes it seem
makes me definitely change my stance on it as far
as I mean again, if someone's coming to me for advice,
(31:13):
I'll say, do everything you can.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, I remain shocked that, you know, based on what
we heard growing up. Obviously, as you're younger, a big
problem is like, is the guy gonna pull out?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Even though yes, and I would say that's the one
thing that you know, to know, what the point he's saying?
What would I tell you know, let's say our hypothetical children.
You know, if you two decide to have the talk
with your kids, I'm good, there's gonna be a point
(31:48):
being that I'm concerned about. To your point, manny is
I guess put it giving a man uh that much
risk reponsibility. And I know this is this sucks because
I think we do this all the time, which is
like the women have to take all the responsibility when
it comes to sex. But at least I guess if
(32:11):
I were talking to someone who can get pregnant, I
would want them to do everything within their control to
make sure that they do not end up pregnant, which
is like an ied birth control making sure their partner
is wearing in condoms. It's a lot harder to be like, hey, well,
I guess they can also communicate when they're ovulating, but yeah,
(32:34):
then you're putting. I guess it makes more sense to
me to do this with someone who you trust, you're
in a committed relationship with, and not like a casual
partner who you're like, I don't really trust this dude.
I told him to pull out, but like hopefully he, yeah,
does it. And in that case, yeah, I would think
(32:55):
I would feel more comfortable under those conditions.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, clearly the best way, which was reference in the
data that Dre was talking about, is like, yeah, it's
withdrawal method in uh, in addition to other methods, and
that's like the best way to go.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
M Well, I will say this. If you guys, are
you know, since you're not talking to your parents about it,
you're out of school. If you want to learn some
things about sex education, you should actually watch Netflix. Is
Sex Education? Great show? I think it's accurate. Well, well,
we'll call up Drey afterwards and see. But I learned
a lot watching that show.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Are we getting paid for this?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yeah, they cut the check. If you're in the mood
for another spicy episode, check out why are Slurs making
a comeback? Episode three of No Such Thing. We'll link
to that in the show notes. No Such Thing is
produced by Manny Fidel nor Friedman and Me Devin Joseph.
(33:56):
Theme song by Manny, audition of music by Zo. Our
guest this week was Andrea Becker. Her new book, Get
It Out on the politics of hysterectomy, will be out
later this summer, but we'll put a link to the
pre order in the show notes. If you want to
check out some of the references that we talk about
in this episode and see a map of the US
(34:17):
and what is required for each state in terms of
sex said, we're going to drop that at our newsletter
at No Such Thing that show, And if you want
to email us a question, feedback, anything, Hit us up
at Manny noahdevinat gmail dot com. All right, well, we'll
see you guys next week
I'm Manny and this is Devin, and this is no
such thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments
in yours by actually doing the research. Today we're talking
about sex ad birth control in the case for pulling out.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,
but nobody wants to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
There's no no such thing, no such thing, no such.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Thank thank all Right, fellas, this is gonna be an
interesting one. Uh scared. We we as a friend group,
do not do a lot of locker room talk like
our like our president. So we'll try to keep this
(00:48):
a little PG. Thirteen. Yes, if you're listening with young children,
I'm glad they're a fan of the show. But maybe
they should skip this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Or maybe they should keep listen where they.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Can listen to it. And then at the end we'll
they actually should have skipped it.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
It's too late now, so.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Let's start the conversation here. Have either of you had
the talk? No, no, this is crazy, not from parents,
So neither of you had the talk with your parents. No, no,
didn't come up.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, don't worry about this ship. Yeah, your parents were like,
you're not gonna have to worry.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
I did have the conversation with my dad. I had
to be I was young. I had to be like ten,
nine or ten. It was you know, it was a
very top level conversation. Did so growing up? What was
the conversation around like birth control contraceptive did you guys?
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Like?
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Was it just through school?
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Dude?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Your parents weren't like, hey, make sure you stay safe? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
It was mostly through school, and we we were in
one in a neighborhood that school, like public school systems
were like, we really got to beat it out of
these kids specifically, so we had that kind of sex
said that was like everyone, get a ring. You are
now a little bit. It was all like abstinence. They
sent us home with the baby dolls that yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
You know they do that on Love Island.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Come on Beautiful Baby Boy, Cry maybe you and they're
like twenty something and that show. Yeah, yeah, I was,
I must have been thirteen or something.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
How was that experience for you?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
I remember it, like, you know, I don't think it
works as nearly as well as the programs think it does,
because you know, it's not real. It's a fake doll.
I like hit it under some pillows and like cover
so I didn't hear it crying. It really was like,
I know, mean girls has a scene like this, but
then they're parioding the kind of sex at that I got,
which is like, if you even touch someone, you're gonna die.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
I guess we'll never know what I missed on that
first day of health class.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Don't have sex because you will get pregnant and die.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
And uh yeah, it was not very effective because in
my seventh grade uh school trip to d c to
the kids were going off in the back of the
bus on the bus and she got pregnant. Wait they
were wait going off Okay, but anyway, like that was
(03:43):
one of the schools I think where they went hard
on like sex heads.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Because they were about teenage pregnancies.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, and it just kind of backfires, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
I mean, you know, it was all abstinence based though
there wasn't any talk about.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
It wasn't like if you're gonna have sex, do this
and this and this. It was all like, don't even
touch each other.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Look at it.
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Yeah, Okay, I really I remember doing like health class.
I really don't remember any sex said except for like
we watched a baby being born video.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Yeah, but like I don't.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I really don't remember anything. It certainly wasn't like abstinence education.
I don't remember anything about like like you see in
movies or whatever, like they're putting a condom on a banana.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Abstinence wasn't something that stressed. I don't remember. In school,
sex head was very sort of like anatomy based. A
lot of the conversation was around anatomy, right, So it
wasn't really like real world here's what's gonna happen, here's
what you should do, but it was like a big
fear of like pregnancy, like you know, both in school
(04:43):
and outside of school, was just like, yeah, you're too
young to be having sex, but if you are going
to be having sex, make sure you're using protection.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Yeah, because you not want it's too pronged. Yes, you
shouldn't do it, but if you are, yes, here's what
you should be doing.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
I kind of what I remember is more just learning
about how someone becomes pregnant, like as far as like
looking at diagrams and like parts, more than like like
reproductive yeah more yeah, just like more reproductive health than
like education on like how to, yeah, how to do
how to or how not to.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
As we hear from Manny he had friends at a
young age that were sexually active. What was the sentiment
amongst your friends when you were kids around sex and protection, Like,
were people talking about using condoms, already talking about not
using condoms, already talking about other methods of birth control? Like,
for example, I remember in high school the kids who
(05:41):
were in sort of like long term relationships talking about
how their girlfriends were on the pale so they did
not use condoms.
Speaker 5 (05:48):
Yeah, I remember, I remember stuff like that. I don't
remember much like anti condom sentiment. I think there wasn't
enough in my circles going on for it to be
like cool to not like it's like all right, if
you're going to do it, then you'd use this and
that's that's great.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
I think there were I remember certainly, you know a
few people who like wanted to seem cool or whatever
edge you're talking about how, oh my god, it's way
better without a.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Condom or whatever.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
That went on throughout high school, yeah, and even college.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
Okay, so this brings us to the topic that we're
going to talk about for today's episode, the pullout method.
Do you remember anything specifically about the pullout method? As
a kid, I guess I'll start. I remember hearing as
a kid, don't do that. It's bad. Yeah. Yeah, pull
(06:45):
out method is is not safe. Even before you finish.
There may be some things that come out that could
think perhaps pre yes, it just.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Takes one second, just takes one second.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah. And it's also like, hey, you don't know when
it's gonna happen, do you don't have It was a
lot of like, you can't trust yourself to do this. Yep,
don't put yourself in a situation where you have to
do that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Essentially, I remember in part of the abstinence program that
they had us do uh talking about how pulling out
is not going like you think you're safe, but you're not.
So don't think that this is a you know, a
way you can get out of it. Get around them.
You're still gonna have a baby that's gonna be crying
all night and your parents won't help you.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
And yeah, you're gonna have to drop out of school.
Your life is gonna be ruined. You're not gonna go
to college, not to be successful, You're gonna be poor.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
Yeah yeah, and I and I remember them saying it.
But also I was believing it too. Yeah, sense I
was like, damn, yeah, okay, there's some science here that
I don't understand.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Sounds right to me, or I might argue, yeah, yeah,
I'm not going to be the one.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
Exactly, I'm not righting the research lab on this.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
No, what if I told you that the pull out method,
according to this article, is as effective as male condoms
when used correctly.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
As effective. I'm very surprised to hear that. I'd I'd
be scared i'd be able to tell you that.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Let me be accurate. The article says about as effective.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Okay, okay, about as effective. That surprises me. I could
you know, I can tell you that it is effective
and based on experience, but I would never argue that
it's about as effective as I always thought. You know,
there's a pretty big risk.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, I guess I.
Speaker 5 (08:48):
I'm curious to hear it out. Am I gonna personally
recommend this to someone asking me for, you know, sex advice,
which happens often.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Not not at.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
This point, but let's hear him out.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
So we'll be sitting down with the author of this
Slate article, the Case for pulling Out, Andrea Becker. That's
after the break Hey, do you have a conspiracy theory
that no one in your life can convince you is fake? Well,
(09:24):
send us a voice memo at Manny Noah Devin at
gmail dot com and we may feature you in our
upcoming episode. And by the way, we'll just do this
now so we don't have to do it again in
the credits. But if you're a fan of this show,
go right now. It's it's a break, so you have
time rid us five stars and share it with a
(09:44):
front All right, back to the show. Okay, we're back.
I'm Manny, I'm Noah Devin. And in the studio today
we have Professor Andrea Becker. She is a sexual reproductive
(10:07):
health researcher. She's a professor and most importantly, a friend
of the pod.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
True.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
Welcome, Welcome, it's great to have you.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Great to be here.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
And thanks for pretending that this is a studio, not
my living.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
It's a studio to me. These lights, studio lights, it's
right lights.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
And you have a.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Book coming out, and I have a book coming out.
It's called Get It Out on the Politics of Hysterectomy.
It's out in July, but available for pre order now.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
So Professor last year for Slate, you wrote an article
titled the Case for pulling Out. First of all, do
you stand by that absolutely? You know, just wanted to
make sure. So what was you know, the inception of
(11:03):
this article. What was the first time you thought about
pulling out.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I've been thinking about pulling out since I was in
high school, I guess. Academically, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, academically awesome.
So I was in an honors anatomy class, and I
guess our teacher was a pretty radical guy, and he
told us about the female reproductive cycle and how there's
(11:34):
only three to five days where you can actually get pregnant.
And I didn't know that, especially compared to the abstinence
only sex education that I had had. This was in
North Carolina. They basically say, don't have sex, and we
won't explain anything further. Our teacher also implied that if
you are even naked in the same room, you could
get pregnant, and she didn't elaborate further, so I didn't
(11:58):
know what she meant for many years.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I got like vibes based intercourse.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
No clue.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Still, I wish I remembered her name so I could
ask her. But yeah, so figuring out that there's only
five days out of the month where you can feasibly
get pregnant, and he said that he himself and his
wife had relied on pulling out and that it worked.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Did he use that phrase specifically?
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I believe so, though I will.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Say that in the research it's referred to as the
withdrawal method or my favorite coitus interruptis is hoitus interrupted?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
That sounds like I'm like a kid made up.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
That's Harry Potters.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. JK. Rowling came out with that one.
So you were told this in high school and then
it was sort of on your mind and you wrote
this article. So you've been thinking about it this entire time?
Speaker 4 (12:51):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Or did this something recently happen that you're like, oh
my god, I'm remembering my high school teacher talking about
pulling out.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
No. Nothing, well, I guess getting into the space of
sexual and reproductive health researchers, I noticed that there was
a big divide among researchers and providers about withdrawal. So
some are very adamant that it's part of like sexual
and general autonomy, that you should be able to learn
(13:18):
about this method, that you should be taught the right ways.
And then there are a lot of providers and researchers
who say that it's not a form of birth control,
that it's really irresponsible to even talk about it. There's
a lot of really stigmatizing language around it.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
So some people still.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Call it the pull and prey method, as if you
need to use it in conjunction with religious practice, that
God needs to intervene in order for it to.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Work, okay, because it's so unreliable.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Most recently, someone that I really admire, a professor, said
something like, oh, you know what we call people who
pull out parents m So even researchers.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
With this is I hate to say, but that's a
bar It is a bar line. They're wrong, but it's
a great line.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
So okay, that's the like you're saying, that's researchers. What
has been the vibe with just like your friends and associates?
Is that a simil Because we were talking about earlier.
I think it's a similar sentiment of just like pulling
out like worst case scenario, but like that's not plan A.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I think the general vibe is that everyone does it,
but nobody wants to talk about it. And so even
within researchers. Interestingly, so the there is a reproductive health
conference that I go to every year. It's like a
really large conference, and one of the researchers who attends
every year did a survey with the various members. I
(14:53):
think she surveyed over three hundred people about the various
contraceptive methods that they use, and around seventy six percent
said they relied on withdrawal.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Why so it's the same people counseling patients to not
use it and writing papers about how everyone needs to
be on the IUD they're they're pulling out. Around sixty
five to sixty six percent of the population rely on withdrawal,
and this is about equal among young people in adolescents
as well. But a lot of people use in conjunction
(15:24):
to other methods, So they're using withdrawal and also using
condoms or using withdrawal and birth control. So there's responsible
ways to use it, and it doesn't mean you're it's
your only method necessarily, So that's okay.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
That makes that number make a little bit more sense
to me. How much So sixty five percent of people
are saying they just use withdrawal period but some combination
OLiS people are using withdrawal and combination with maybe birth
control or condoms.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
But in terms of your primary form of birth control,
the latest data from twenty twenty three, so two thirds
of women have at least at some point relied on
withdrawal as their primary form of birth control.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
So we now know how many people rely on pulling out,
but I want to know how effective it actually is.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Okay, So in a large national study, eighteen percent of
couples who solely rely on withdrawal will have an unplanned pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
That's anonomy. So what we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
The condoms is seventeen percent.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Oh yeah, correctly.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
I'm not doing this anymore. So these numbers that Dray
is referencing actually come from a two thousand and eight
paper published in the journal Contraception. The researchers looked at
a bunch of studies and found that with typical use,
so you know, not getting it perfectly right every single time,
(17:02):
eighteen percent of couples who rely on a pull out
method could expect to get pregnant within a year. With
typical use, seventeen percent of couples who rely on condoms
can expect to get pregnant within a year, and if
you're using these methods perfectly. So let's say with the
pull out method, the person with a penis pulls out
every single time for ejaculating. Only four percent of couples
(17:27):
relying on a withdrawal method can expect a pregnancy within
a year, and with perfect condom use only two percent
of couples can expect a pregnancy within a year.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
What is perfect? U?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah? Yeah, what does that look like? Because I think
we all have an idea in our mind, right, but
you were talking about even days that you can get pregnant.
So yeah, if this is my primary form of a contraception,
what am I doing?
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
So there definitely needs to see some communication between partners
and so generally the semen should come nowhere near the
person's vagina, and then if there are multiple rounds of
sex happening, the person needs to urinate in between because
(18:18):
the person with the penis.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
Good question.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think everybody, probably.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Everyone should be after sex.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
As I'm learning from you know, Hannah Horror asks and girls,
it is important to pe after sex.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
It is you can get a U t I if
you don't did yes.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
And with men Hannah Horror from Girls.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Made putting the show called Girl Girls.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
A couple of seasons.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
But so after ejaculating, sperm can live in the urethra,
and so urinating can will kill those spurs, like flush
it out.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
And push out, So you're gonna clean up eviction p
if you're doing multiple rounds both for UTIs and pregnancy purposes.
Everybody just go pee?
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Yes, everybody just go pee?
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Is really good. And then is there a window where
you should be doing this?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Right?
Speaker 1 (19:20):
You're talking about there's like three or four days where
a woman there's the only window that a woman can
get pregnant. And now that I think about it, I
did know that because when people are trying to get pregnant,
they're like, oh, I'm in my window. We gotta go.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
It's interesting because women and men tend to only learn
about this window when they're trying to get pregnant. We
don't teach people this when they're trying to not get pregnant.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Wow, that's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
So around two weeks after your period, so right in
the middle of your cycle, you ovulate, and so generally
five days before ovulation and the day after you shouldn't
have unprotected sex. With the idea that maybe there's sperm
in the person's pre com.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yes, this is one of the primary reasons why I
have historically been told to not due to pull out method. Right,
it's like whatever, you think, you got it under control,
but you may pre come. Yeah, can a woman actually
get pregnant from pre com?
Speaker 4 (20:22):
Really good question.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
So pre com doesn't necessarily have sperm in it, okay,
but some people maybe have a little bit of sperm
in their pre com. So semen is the general fluid
that comes out during ejaculation, okay, and sperm is the
sex cells within there.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
The likelihood is lower, but it only takes.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
One sperm okay. And of course there's really limited research
on this. There's a few studies on it, some of
them they're typically really small numbers of men that they sample.
But we need a huge national longitude survey of pre come.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
If I was the.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
One, if I was setting the agenda for research, I
would be doing that.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
So I guess what is your kind of response to
our middle school teachers who are like, pre come will
do it. I hear you're not necessarily disagreeing with that,
But in terms of pulling out as a contraceptive method.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, I think I understand why public health professionals and
sex and teachers don't want young teenagers to know about
withdrawal as a legitimate form of contraception, because if it
has even higher rates of failure, that's you know, however,
(21:47):
many kids that are getting pregnant they don't want to,
and so on like a national scale, that's a lot
of people getting pregnant when they don't want to. Yeah,
but if you teach people or the proper technique, the
right knowledge about their cycle, so yessch pre com can
get you pregnant, but not if you're not ovulating. So
(22:11):
if you're ovulating, we're a condom.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
So basically they're saying they're wanting to be basically misleading
for our better good. But you're saying, actually, the best
way to do that is be as transparent as possible.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, knowledge is power.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
There's also just like a mistrust that people will use
birth control methods correctly at all. So there's this huge
bias within sex, said within medical practitioners where they want
patients to use the.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
Most effective methods.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So they want people to use IUDs because there's very
little room for user error. The doctor places the device
and then that's it. So with a pill, you can
forget to take it, you can take at the wrong time.
With withdrawal, you can accidentally not pull out or do
it the wrong time of the month. And so there's
(23:08):
this huge bias towards just pushing these really high, highly
effective methods even if patients don't want to use it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But I feel like to that point, condoms, there's a
lot of room for error there, and that's always the
like even more than you know, I feel like IDs
are more recently and I feel like even when people
are a bit older, but early on, I feel like
it's just like condoms, condoms, condoms, condoms like the only
form of birth control. Obviously they talk about women being
on the pail, but even still, it's like women on
(23:38):
the pail plus condoms, Right, Like, why is condoms always
the thing that's being talked about as like so effective.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, that's because condoms is the only thing that will
prevent STI transmission. And so that's some pushback I get
about withdrawal that if we say that withdrawal is an
acceptable form of contraception, then STI rates will increase. But
other than condoms, no other birth control prevents SDI transmission.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Okay, so we talked a little bit earlier too about
how we had different experiences in school about education. You know,
many grew up in Ohio, know, in Connecticut, me in
New Jersey. What is like sort of like the state
of sex education in the US, because we all learned
(24:35):
different things.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Yeah, so across the country, there's a really wide range
of what is mandated by the state. There's no federal guidelines,
so in some there has to be sex education, and
others there is no mandate on that, and some it
has to be medically accurate, and some they have to
teach about consent or LGBTQ sex.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
But so it really varies across which state you're in.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
It is crazy conversations in school about consent, at least
until you get to college, then they talk a lot
about consent. But in high school there was very little
to no conversations about consent. Consent. I get maybe it's
more of a thing now, but I feel like consent
was not a conversation even amongst friends or like family members,
(25:18):
like yeah, well, pleasure. I guess part of the issue is,
like I feel like so much of the conversations around
sex are about not getting pregnant. And it's not about pleasure.
It's not about like you know, like pleasuring your partner.
It's all about don't get pregnant, try not to do it.
(25:39):
If you are going to do it, try to be
safe about it. And like there's yeah, none of these
other aspects of it. You just sort of like figure
it out.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
Yeah, that isn't changed with so in research.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Also, the way that demographers and public health researchers talk
about birth control, you'd think that people have sex to
test the effectiveness of different birth control. Like it's almost
radical to talk about pleasure as part of.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Birth Yeah, like does this feel good? Yeah, because I'm
not going to use it if it doesn't feel good,
because that's why I'm having sex.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
So, Jenny Higgins in Wisconsin is one of the only
researchers I know who is asking people about sexual pleasure
and what birth control they use.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Oh wow, So let me ask you this because you know,
I know you wrote this last year. I would say
within the last couple of years, there's been a lot
of backlash to the pill. You know, I think some
women have complained about the side effects of the Hell,
we know that in a lot of right wing circles.
They've sort of hijacked that movement to be like, no,
(26:41):
no woman should be on the pill. It's horrible for
every single woman. You shouldn't be using this as a
form of birth control. There have been lots of conversations
about will conservatives in this country take away women's ability
to get the pill period as a form of birth control.
So how much of this sort of research urgence of
you know, pulling out is in response to the current
(27:04):
state that we're in, not to even mention, you know,
abortion in this country and how it's so much harder
for people to get abortions now. I could see people saying, Hey,
I don't want to have any risk because if I
live in Texas and I'm using the pull out method
and it goes wrong, I can't just get an abortion pill.
I can't just go, you know, to a planned parenthood
(27:26):
and have an abortion. What's your response to that?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
So withdrawal isn't for everyone, So you should only use
it if you are ambivalent about getting pregnant. So if
it would be okay with you to have a pregnancy,
that's great, Or if you have access to terminating a
pregnancy that you wouldn't want to have, then maybe you'll
be comfortable with withdrawal. But if you know, if you
(27:55):
live in Texas, as you said, and you don't want
to be pregnant, it's way. So I'm not saying everyone
should be pulling out. Everyone should be able to have
the choice for what birth control they want. So some
people love their IUD, some people love their birth control pill,
some people love pulling out. And the number one reason
for why someone is satisfied with their birth control method
(28:18):
is sexual satisfaction. And then in terms of the backlash
against hormonal methods, we're seeing us horseshoe theory because for
decades women have been saying no on the left have
been saying we need better hormonal birth control methods, we
need better birth control.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Methods in general.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
There's all of these side effects, and now we're also
seeing right wingers saying hormonal.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
Birth control is bad.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, so we're all coming at the same conclusion from
different sides. But it's true that we need a lot
more research and investment into more types of birth control
for women and also for men, which right now we
don't have a single form of male birth control on
the market in the US, besides condoms and vsectomy.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, why can't we take the pill.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
We can't take the pill because the medical industry in
the US one doesn't think men.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Will take it.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
A lot of women don't trust.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
I wouldn't trust the god to take no damn pill.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
The people think there's no market for it, and so
rather than letting men make the decision, we just won't
put it on the market. And then when we've had
clinical trials around the male birth control pill in the US,
trial monitors shut it down because.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
They thought the side effects were too extreme side effects.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You know, the side effects were almost identical to the
ones that women deal with, so moodiness, lower libido, depression.
Hormonal birth control does that for women, but no trub
monitor shut that down.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Well, professor, that was very informative. Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Thank you so much for having me when a professor,
a doctor and a friend and a friend most important.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
All right, well we'll be back after the break. All right, fellas,
we just learned a lot. Now. I feel like we
just did like ten years of sex ed in about
twenty five minutes.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Yeah, I mean that was, I mean, certainly more useful
than my sex ed classes in middle school where we
didn't learn anything. Yeah, yeah, the absence except for that
we shouldn't have sex, don't.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Do it all? Right after hearing from Dre, how are
we feeling about the pull out method?
Speaker 5 (30:52):
In some ways better? But also I wouldn't say worse,
I feel worse about other methods. I suppose, Yeah, like
the that's my The fact that the condoms and the
pull up method were essentially essentially tide makes it seem
makes me definitely change my stance on it as far
as I mean again, if someone's coming to me for advice,
(31:13):
I'll say, do everything you can.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, I remain shocked that, you know, based on what
we heard growing up. Obviously, as you're younger, a big
problem is like, is the guy gonna pull out?
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Even though yes, and I would say that's the one
thing that you know, to know, what the point he's saying?
What would I tell you know, let's say our hypothetical children.
You know, if you two decide to have the talk
with your kids, I'm good, there's gonna be a point
(31:48):
being that I'm concerned about. To your point, manny is
I guess put it giving a man uh that much
risk reponsibility. And I know this is this sucks because
I think we do this all the time, which is
like the women have to take all the responsibility when
it comes to sex. But at least I guess if
(32:11):
I were talking to someone who can get pregnant, I
would want them to do everything within their control to
make sure that they do not end up pregnant, which
is like an ied birth control making sure their partner
is wearing in condoms. It's a lot harder to be like, hey, well,
I guess they can also communicate when they're ovulating, but yeah,
(32:34):
then you're putting. I guess it makes more sense to
me to do this with someone who you trust, you're
in a committed relationship with, and not like a casual
partner who you're like, I don't really trust this dude.
I told him to pull out, but like hopefully he, yeah,
does it. And in that case, yeah, I would think
(32:55):
I would feel more comfortable under those conditions.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Yeah, clearly the best way, which was reference in the
data that Dre was talking about, is like, yeah, it's
withdrawal method in uh, in addition to other methods, and
that's like the best way to go.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
M Well, I will say this. If you guys, are
you know, since you're not talking to your parents about it,
you're out of school. If you want to learn some
things about sex education, you should actually watch Netflix. Is
Sex Education? Great show? I think it's accurate. Well, well,
we'll call up Drey afterwards and see. But I learned
a lot watching that show.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Are we getting paid for this?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yeah, they cut the check. If you're in the mood
for another spicy episode, check out why are Slurs making
a comeback? Episode three of No Such Thing. We'll link
to that in the show notes. No Such Thing is
produced by Manny Fidel nor Friedman and Me Devin Joseph.
(33:56):
Theme song by Manny, audition of music by Zo. Our
guest this week was Andrea Becker. Her new book, Get
It Out on the politics of hysterectomy, will be out
later this summer, but we'll put a link to the
pre order in the show notes. If you want to
check out some of the references that we talk about
in this episode and see a map of the US
(34:17):
and what is required for each state in terms of
sex said, we're going to drop that at our newsletter
at No Such Thing that show, And if you want
to email us a question, feedback, anything, Hit us up
at Manny noahdevinat gmail dot com. All right, well, we'll
see you guys next week
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