February 25, 2025 • 44 mins
This week, we take a look into a rather divisive issue: school cell phone bans. With more and more states introducing legislature to ban mobile devices in schools, we take a look at the cases for and against the restrictions. Our guests today are Sabine Polak from the Phone-Free Schools Movement and Keri Rodrigues from the National Parents Union.
For more, including links to some of the research cited in this episode, visit our website.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours
by actually doing the research. On today's episode, why can't
kids just use the school phone like I used to?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
There's no no such thing, no such thing.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Such, thank.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Thank thank.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
A few years ago, my fiance Julie and I got
into a disagreement about whether or not our future kids
should have cell phones. My view at the time was, well,
I made it through high school and most of college
without a smartphone. You can do what I did and
just use the office phone if you need to reach
me or in your mouth to talk to people.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, ask one of your friends who has a phone, Yeah,
because they have nice parents. Her view was that times
have changed. I was in high school, you know, let's
say fifteen years ago.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
Yeah, yeah, like that, So I see you sad to
hear that, and our phoneless child would be an outlier,
a loser, maybe a pariah, and they'd be left out
of things if they don't have a phone.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
More and more states and school districts have been introducing
cell phone restriction policies. California Governor Gavin Newsom putting out
the call to all school districts to restrict cell phones
in the classroom.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
Governor Kevin Stitt once phones out of Oklahoma classrooms. Governor
Glenn Youngkin issued a executive order requiring the state's Department
of Education come up with policies to restrict or ban
cell phones for all grade levels.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
At least sixteen states have introduced legislation to restrict or
banned phones in schools. It's kind of hard to keep
up with as legislation is kind of in different stages.
Here in New York, our Governor Kathy Hochel just unveiled
a new plan to go into effect this fall.
Speaker 7 (01:51):
That a bell to bell ban warning until the day
is over, is not going to hurt your kids. It's
going to help them emerge with stronger mental health and resiliency.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
And that's broadly speaking. Teachers are in support of a bank.
According to a p report, seventy two percent of high
school teachers say phone distraction is a major issue, and
a survey by the National Parents Union said that seventy
percent of parents agree that cell phone you should be
banned during class, but more than half think that students
should be allowed to use them at other times outside
of the classroom, so launch reesas between classes, et cetera.
(02:23):
On both sides, a lot of this boils down to
safety concerns, so parents want to be able to reach
their kid during an emergency, whether that's a school shooting
or a mental health crisis. But on the other hand,
many pro banned parents cite the harms of social media
and cyber bullying and just playing distraction. So, having said
all that, and a disclaimer that none of us have kids,
but we have all gone to school and we all
also own cell phones, what do you guys think?
Speaker 8 (02:46):
Many?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, I don't mean to come off of the top
rope here, but I think please, I just think like,
if anyone's arguing that, like they need the phones in school,
the easiest thing to point to is that we've done
it before without the phones. As you said, times have
changed and there might be new reasons that you know,
new kind of factors at play today then when I
(03:08):
was in school, that that might make you need a phone,
But I just don't see it.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, Devin, Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to argue that
kids and need their phones in school. A phone from
bell to bell, So you don't need it during this Why.
Speaker 8 (03:24):
Do you need at lunch?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think I lean towards that you're both banned. Well,
I'm barely even allowing my kid to have a phone.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, but yeah, I'm just interested to know what the
real arguments are because I I've seen this debate a
lot online, but I haven't really been that plugged into it,
so in my head, I don't know. I'm not necessarily
pro band, but I'm definitely anti this idea that kids
absolutely need phones in school. Now, I also don't mind
(03:57):
like all right, classes over, whip your phone out, tech
your friends or whatever until the next class or at
recess or at lunch or whatever. Like I had a
I did have a phone my senior year of high school,
and it obviously wasn't a smartphone. It could only text
people or T nine. Yeah, I had T nine texting,
and I think I had like a really shitty deal
(04:18):
or no deal game on there. But it just wasn't
a piece of technology that I ever thought about killing
time with.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, obviously, the smartphone thing is so different than even
if you were like a texting addict. It's like that
just pales in comparison to a smartphone where you have
TikTok or Instagram or whatever. Ye like, even if your
text all the time, you can only do so much,
you know, because.
Speaker 8 (04:43):
It requires someone else.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I mean, just like taking the schools and kids
out of it. It's like we're all addicted to our phones. Yeah, yeah,
because of these things too. It's like, I think that's
what makes it difficult too, is I think there are
a lot of adults who can't reckon with the fact
that maybe they also have an issue with the phones,
and maybe that colors how they treat the children. Like
you said, we're largely unaffected by the school specific issue,
(05:07):
but I can see there being a great argument for
kids needing a place to not be on their phones,
Like at some point during the day.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
It's not like we're sending your kid off in the
woods and saying they can't have a phone and there's
no way to contact them.
Speaker 8 (05:21):
They're at a school, you.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
Know, the tough thing Like you're saying, it is like,
all right, the US schools are in asafe as we
want them to be. But I just think that you
got to think of the trade offs, and I think
having the phones and what that does to the kids
is worth the off chance of something bad happening and
you not being able to contact them immediately.
Speaker 8 (05:42):
But I also don't have kids.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I also think there's this kind of strain where it's
like people kind of want to treat kids the same
as adults. Yes, which I get out of, you know, respect,
these are humans, Yeah, they have rights. At the same time,
it's like kids not be trusted to make the best
decisions for them since course, like it's why we don't
let twelve year olds drive cars. Yeah, yeah, you know,
(06:06):
or like yeah there, I mean time their brains aren't developed.
It's like they're learning how to be a human still. Yeah,
so it's like, yeah, like they might not like that
we're taking the phone away, but I mean, in my opinion,
they'll probably be better off if they can, at least
for five hours of their life not have the phone.
You think about like.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
The you know, we've we've heard so much in the
past few years, even in Congress, about like the harms
of social media. So you think about like if you
if you can imagine hearing a good argument for why
kids should have phones at all, then you're like, Okay, yeah,
maybe it's it's a lot easier to see that these
five or six hours at school, they shouldn't have them.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So next, I want to talk to people on all
sides of the issue. Let's hear them out, and I
want to see how these policies actually work in practice.
All of that after the break, All right, we're back.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I'm Manny, I'm Noah.
Speaker 8 (07:05):
This is Devin.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So I want to start with the case for banning phones,
since that's where the momentum is heading nationally. I spoke
with the co founder of an organization pushing for phone
free schools. It's aptly named the Phone Free Schools Movement.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I'm Sabina Pollack, and I'm co founder of the Phone
Free School's Movement.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Sabina has a very personal backstory that got her involved
in this issue.
Speaker 9 (07:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So, unfortunately, it all started with a phone call out
of the blue from my daughter's school counselor saying that
she was suicidal, which completely floored me.
Speaker 9 (07:44):
I had no idea she was struggling.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Turns out, the main aggravator to that mental health challenges
that she was facing with social media and her social
media use. Long story short, she ended up spending six
weeks in a partial hospitalization program. I did a deep
dive into the applications she was using. Was pretty horrified
at what I was finding. Social media had pretty much
(08:08):
turned her from a thriving young person with aspirations goals
for the future, to someone that was unrecognizable, had no
aspirations anymore, had given up on herself. So when we
finally sent her back to school, our school had a
(08:29):
cell phone policy on paper, had trust that we were
sending her back to a school where they kind of
had her back taking the right steps. We found out
pretty much at the end of that semester that her
grades were falling, and we spoke to all her teachers
(08:51):
and said, is she using her cell phone? And unanimously
they all said, yep, she sits on her cell phone
all day during class. So here, not only did we
think that we were sending our daughter back to this safe,
healthy environment, but it was the complete opposite. No one
was going to tell us that these problems were going on.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Sabina told me she met with the school administration, who
said that they were aware of the issues with phones
and students, but were hesitant to really do anything about
it out of fear of reprisal from the community and
In Sabina's view, this issue couldn't be solved individually because
she tried to take her daughter's phone away but only
alienated her daughter further from her peers and made the
problem even worse. So I asked what she recommends.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
We did the boots on the ground research to try
to figure out, like what was making certain policies effective
and what was making other policies fail. And what we
found out was that it really needs to be an
all day bell to belle policy, so that means it's
not in their backpack, it's not in a personal locker.
(09:56):
It has to be you know, stored away from the
person or in a in something like a lockable pouch.
And especially with the classroom time only bands, were really
putting the burden completely on the teachers to have to
enforce that type of a ban. Some teachers are going
to enforce it at a higher level than others, and
then you have this inconsistency which leads to pushback from
(10:19):
students and even the teachers that are heavily trying to
enforce the policies. After a couple of weeks, they end
up kind of giving up on the policy, and by.
Speaker 9 (10:29):
The end of the school year. No one's really enforcing
it anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Like, not even ten minutes ago, I was saying how
I could see, like your phone gets banned in specific classes.
But now now hearing her, I can easily see why
all day makes a little bit more sense. Like teachers
are already so burdened, and I like all these factors.
They're probably so stressed out, they're underpaid. It does seem
(10:53):
unfair to put like one more thing on them.
Speaker 8 (10:55):
Now, just like kids.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, it's hard enough obviously to be a teacher. So
another common thing you'll hear against bens is what if
my kid needs to reach me. Here's what Sabina had
to say to that.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So we're hearing from mental health professionals that you really
need to equip these kids, even the ones that have anxiety,
with other type of coping mechanisms. Even in the real world,
they're going to have to have several different types of
coping methods to be able to navigate a job and
so forth. Kids having twenty four access to their parents
(11:30):
can sometimes fuel anxiety. Schools were typically the safe spaces,
you know, It's the first place that they were independent
from their parents and kind of could experiment through trial
and are with navigating that independence.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
When you look at the surveys, parents say they want
the kids to have cell phones in schools in case
there's an emergency. So obviously the most extreme and kind
of top of mind one often is school shootings. Do
you have a response to that line of argument.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, I mean, as a parent, I have to say,
I get it right, Like, that's a hugely emotional thing
that's on the top of all of our minds, but
we have to kind of make sure that we're separating
the emotions from the facts. So we know that phones
make kids much less safe in emergency situation, and that
(12:26):
comes from, you know, the fact that the phone could
alert an intruder of the hiding location of students, tying
up communication lines to first responders. And I have to
remind myself that the number one important thing is that
they're safe and that these teachers are highly trained in
(12:47):
these situations and to kind of rely on them and
their expertise to handle the situation. There's simple solutions that
schools can take, you know, that are cost effective, whether
it's installing panic buttons in each classrooms that allowed the
direct line to emergency response I don't think that arming
(13:12):
kids with cell phones and replacing one harm with another
is the solution.
Speaker 9 (13:18):
There's got to be something else.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Social Media obviously is a huge, probably the biggest kind
of catalyst in this whole debate. So obviously school is
only part of the day, you know, from whatever seven
thirty to two thirty. So I asked if focusing on
social media regulation might be a better thing to focus
on than getting phones out of schools.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Fixing the problems with social media definitely, you know, it
has to happen. We're obviously huge supporters of KOSA and
bills like that. Unfortunately, those things aren't going to happen
fast enough where our kids need it to happen. We
need to find other solutions in the meantime. Number One,
(14:03):
we are by no means suggesting that phone free schools
are the only solution, but we do really feel like
it's an important for at step and changing a community
norm around phone use. We do have to realize that
these kids are addicted, and so giving them the seven
plus hours a day to collectively experience life as a group,
(14:26):
as a community without social media is really some of
the best digital literacy that we can provide.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So Sabina mentioned KOSA. That's the Kids Online Safety Act.
It's a bipartisan bill that was passed by the Senate
in July twenty twenty four, but Congress hasn't voted on
it yet.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
Young people will take back control over their on law lives.
Parents will have tools to safeguard those young people. They
will be able to disconnect from the addictive features and
opt out of those black box algorithms that drive at
them relentlessly, be eating disorders, bullying, fentanyl, sex exploitation, self harm,
(15:07):
and all too often suicide and bullying.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That Senator Richard Blumenthal one of the co sponsors of
the bill. I don't want to get too far into
the weeds here, but it's garnered a bit of controversy.
Groups like the ACLU argue that it's a First Amendment violation,
and they say it could be used to sensor info
on things like sexual health and gender identity or getting
help with eating disorders. Basically, what Constitute says harmful needs
to be more specific. We're not going to debate KOSA,
(15:36):
but generally so like, that's not the point here. Yeah,
do you guys agree that cutting social media use during
school might help overall with maybe addiction outside of see.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
Yeah, if you're not using your phone for seven hours
straught today, it's going to make it easier for you
to not be on your phone when you're not at school.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And lastly, I asked if being had any insight on
how students actually are reacting to these bands, like how
do they feel.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I don't know that we've heard from any schools that
have really had an issue when it comes to students
kind of adjusting to these policies and in many instances
actually being very thankful that these policies were put in place.
Speaker 9 (16:22):
I think school's biggest fear is they.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Think we're going to have pushback from students, and we're
seeing very little of that. But for the most part,
we're hearing positive things. I mean, if you think about it,
just kind of going to a school worrying that you
might drop your lunch tray and you might be videotaped
and all of a sudden, it's you know, all over
the internet. But it's just a lot of pressure and
(16:45):
when you remove that, they're all kind of breathing a
sigh of relief. I think one of my pet peeves
is when people say, well, my child has a right
to have a phone, and going through this experience, you know,
to me, I feel like my child and every child
has a right to a distraction free education, a right
(17:07):
to choose to go to school without a phone or
put their phone away and not feel isolated from everyone
around them.
Speaker 9 (17:16):
Kids have a right to that. They have a right
to a healthy school day.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
I had a visceral reaction to my kids have a
right to have a phone. I'm sorry, it's so I
get why you want your kids to have a phone.
Speaker 8 (17:33):
My kid has a right to have a phone.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Obviously, she wants to she wants to implement these policies.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
So I wonder like she's.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Broke if all of the kids were so positive about it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I think one issue is obviously kids it's harder to
survey the same way you can adults. Yeah, so there's
just wayless data on what students think about these things.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
So a lot of this stuff is both fore and against.
It's pretty anecdotal, you know. So you'll see story about
school that put this in and there'll be one quote
from some kid who said, yeah it's cool, you know,
or I don't want this, you know, and it's like, well,
all right, well that's what Matt from this town.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
It's like, okay, Well, if I was, you know, not neutral,
I was leaning towards restrictions at the beginning of this episode.
Listening to her made me go a little bit further
towards that direction. So I'm interested to hear the people
on the other side of the argument. After the break,
we'll hear from a parent on the other side. But first,
some friends of the show shared their perspectives.
Speaker 8 (18:38):
Do you think school should ban phones?
Speaker 11 (18:41):
I think they should mainly because it used to be
like people participate in you got your side conversations.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
Now when you.
Speaker 11 (18:49):
Walk through the hallway just scrolling on TikTok Instagram reels,
it's like the hype is going about school, Like the
only fun part of school is like getting died down.
It's like nobody's even like talking in class, so you
don't even get the social activities anymore.
Speaker 8 (19:06):
So it's just a school, school, school, work, work work.
Speaker 11 (19:11):
It's not like I'm not that person I can discross
for I need things to do, you know.
Speaker 8 (19:16):
Yeah, and especially a.
Speaker 11 (19:18):
School when you have all these people around you, all
these friends or people that could be your friends, and
then you're just on your phone. It just defeasts the
purpose of a school.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
You know, as someone who has worked in a middle
school in New York City for the past seven years,
I have seen the benefit of rules against students having
their cell phones. We collect our student cell phones first
thing every morning. We don't entirely know the long term
effects that this generation will have and their access to
social media or the remote years of school due to COVID.
(19:49):
I love being in a school in classrooms where you
don't have to worry about kids being distracted by their phones,
and see it as a unique opportunity. It's so beneficial
to provide kids a sacred time and space away from
the outside world social media and just focus on their
education and building relationships with people in person.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And we're back.
Speaker 8 (20:14):
I'm Anny Noah Devin.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
So now that we've heard from the phone free school's movement,
it's time to turn to the other side. Fifty six
percent of parents say students should sometimes be allowed to
use their cell phones during the school day, and this
is according to a survey by the National Parents Union.
So I wanted to hear that a union. That was
my first question. Yeah, so that was My first question
(20:39):
is what is the National Parents Union.
Speaker 12 (20:42):
My name is Carrie Rodriguez, and I am Matthew Miles
and David's mom, and I am the president of the
National Parents Union. The National Parents Union is the united
independent voice of modern American families. So what we seek
to do is to bring together pockets of parents power.
We've got about eighteen hundred of them in all fifty states,
(21:04):
DC and Puerto Rico, with about one point seven million
members and reaching between eighteen to twenty million families every
single month through our infrastructure, where we seek to bring
together parents who want to make sure that the priorities
of American families are actually at the center of our
policy building, our legislation, and our politics. The majority of
(21:29):
American families actually do not want to ban cell phones,
which you know, may sound crazy when you think about it,
but it's actually pretty logical because what we have found
in our research is that parents view cell phones as
communications devices and really value the ability that we have
to have that direct line of communication with our kids
(21:51):
because in modern American life, whether it's the fact that
you know, half of families are divorced and we've got
folks sharing child custos, and you know, we no longer
have this nineteen fifties model where mom is waiting at
home or mom is going to the school and pick
like kids are by themselves, they're on public transportation. Having
(22:12):
that line of communication where we can track our kids,
know where they are, make sure that we are there
for them is something that is a part of modern
life and modern American culture.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Like Sabina, Carrie brings up the mental health crisis among children,
exacerbated by social media, but her argument is that because
of this, kids rely on direct lines of communication for
needed support.
Speaker 12 (22:33):
My youngest is a sixth grader. I've gotten calls from
the bathroom from a kid who's on a five four plan.
My youngest son saying to me like, Mom, can you
come get me? My teacher's not here. They don't know,
they don't know how to calm me down. I'm having
a panic attack. What can I do? I hop on
FaceTime with him to help him.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
To de escalate.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
What's interesting is there's already even just in this there's
so much that she does agree with the other side,
especially on social media and mental health and these things.
It's more like, do we go after the phones or
do we go after the apps? Yeah, because if you
both again, it sounds like if they got rid of
the apps and the phone was kind of like our
(23:16):
phones in school and it was just the dumb phone
where Okay, I can call my mom if I really
need to. Yeah, that might solve most of the issues.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
For that's a good distinction that it's not really like
banned phones. It's like ban the distractions on the phones.
Speaker 8 (23:30):
Maybe.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
I think where I disagree with her, and I think
she had a lot of valid points right about, like, yeah,
should this be more of a conversation. One point that
really stuck with me is her saying, you know, I
understand these I don't know what it's like to go
to school or be at a young age and go
through COVID. I know a lot of people had a
tough time with that, even our age, so I can't
(23:52):
imagine being a kid and losing that development time.
Speaker 8 (23:56):
I think.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
I just don't see a world in which it is
is good that your child is reaching out to you
throughout the day as a crutch.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
If you have a situation that severe, you know, then
there should be something else, YESD like yes, okay, I
need to go to the bathroom and call my mom.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Yeah, like you should get a note, you should get
a doctor's serious.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And yes, like there should be other things in play.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
It shouldn't be the norm, it should be an exception.
At a certain point, they're not going to be able
to call you when they're in a tough situation, so
they're going to have to learn that skill. And yeah,
you would want to ease them into that, But I
don't think the response should be, well, I should just
always be available to my kid. It's like, yeah, when
we were growing up, we couldn't talk to our parents
(24:42):
during the day unless it was an emergency, right, Like,
you have to just figure it out.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So I asked Carrie what an ideal policy would look like.
Her emphasis, again was on including parents and students in
the policy making and underlining the reality that we we
do live in the cell phone age, for better or worse.
Speaker 12 (25:01):
An ideal policy incorporates the concerns that teachers have around
distraction disruption, but also takes into the account the fact
that we are pushing our kids into a digital society
where they're going to have to be competitive in a
global economy where these devices are going to be a
part of everyday life. And it's also our obligation to
(25:23):
teach our children the behavioral management skills to have a
healthy relationship with technology. Now we can ban things, you know,
we try this with a lot of stuff, like maybe
abstinence education. The best way not to have pregnant teenagers
right is just to tell them don't have sex, right,
don't do drugs like that's always our go to is
(25:44):
to be like, well, just tell them not to do it.
That doesn't work. Well, you know, it's never been an
effective strategy. I also see the antiquated classrooms that our
kids are spending hours a day, and with the idea
if you know, they're never going to have access to
this technology to help them with their everyday skills that
(26:06):
they're going to utilize, it just seems like a missed opportunity.
Speaker 6 (26:12):
The abstinence thing doesn't make sense because we're saying, basically,
during this period of time, don't do the thing.
Speaker 8 (26:16):
Yeah, we're not saying don't be on your phone. Period.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
We're saying, during this period of time, we're not going
to ask you not to be on your phone.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And to be slightly fair to her, I think like
the analogy about abstinence and drug use, Like wasn't the
best analogy, but I do understand the point of like,
instead of banning something, you know from the ground up,
you can be you could, I don't know, focus more
education about it and like help kids understand what the
(26:45):
problems are and.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
Who, like who's responsible for that now in this scenario
where the kids are having the phones, who's responsible for
teaching the kids how to have that balance?
Speaker 8 (26:55):
Now?
Speaker 6 (26:56):
The teachers are Now that's the current situation wherein and
it's not working right. Yeah, So the parents are on
doing a good job of teaching their kids when to
not use their phones, and the teachers are struggling with it.
Like we're not at this point because it's not a
problem and someone just decided.
Speaker 8 (27:13):
Yea great, Oh actually it's just take the phones away.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
Yeah, there is a problem and that parents are not
doing a good job of it and the teachers are
struggling with it.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah. So kind of last on this, she again really
stresses wanting her voice to be heard, and she understands
the difficulty of enforcing some of these policies in practice.
Speaker 12 (27:32):
You can put whatever policy you want, I will tell
you that, Like, even when I do a TikTok about
this issue. The comments that I get from American families
are like, great, have your little policy. Let me tell
you about what's going to happen with my child, because
if you think I trust you like that in a
day and age where it is a standing possibility that
they could be shot to death and murdered in a classroom,
(27:54):
you're out of your mind. I will send my kid
with a burner phone. I don't care about your little policy.
We have made a decision in this country that we
are not going to do anything about gun violence. So
if all you got for me is thoughts and prayers,
all I got for you is my kid's going to
have a cell phone hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Like.
Speaker 12 (28:12):
The argument will be, well, those are those are so rare,
which again I don't buy because you've had more than
two hundred and fifty instances of gun violence and we're
only in January. Friend. Oftentimes policies like this they come
to me after the cake is baked. I want to
be asked, are you hungry?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Do you want cake?
Speaker 12 (28:30):
Do you want a hamburger? Like That's the part of
the process that we need to be brought into so
that we can actually bring up these points about like
what we're concerned about, but unfortunately, you know, you bring
us in afterwards. What ends up happening is again the
concerns that I have, which are real and valid, around
(28:50):
kids being hurt, being unsafe, Like if you're not considering
like instances like that our special education community, frankly communities
of color and families that unfortunately have these policies more
directly implemented down upon them and unfairly subject their kids
(29:11):
to school discipline because there's just a bigger crackdown in
communities of color, Like these are very real things that
need to be considered.
Speaker 6 (29:18):
A really good point I think about who's going to
get in trouble for having these phones? You know, we
already know black and brown kids are disproportionately punished for
doing the same things as white kids. Is just just
another excuse to be like, hey, Dayshan, why.
Speaker 8 (29:35):
Are you always on your phone?
Speaker 6 (29:36):
Meanwhile, Billy's doing the same exact thing, but Dashawn's getting
suspended for it and Billy if not.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Maybe this just makes me feel like restrictions but flat
like blanket once they need to be stressed, because if
they're not blanket, then you do run into all these
issues area she's talking about, who's going to get in trouble,
our parents, going to give people second phones, that kind
of stuff. Now, maybe I'm just sliding slightly more to
or to the bell to bell versus class to class.
Speaker 12 (30:06):
I will tell you anecdotally from what I have seen
in focus groups, what is so compelling to me is
the lack of understanding around why we are allowing them
to be victim to the algorithm. And that is why
the National Parents Union and me personally, I am such
an advocate for KOSA, the Kids Online Safety Act, because
(30:29):
the real problem that we face is the lack of
regulation around social media and the lack of protection for
our kids and what they are allowed to be influenced by.
And frankly, every minute that we waste kind of having
this convoluted conversation is it the device or is it
the app? Like I'll tell you, it's the app we
(30:50):
actually have as parents, cell phone device management software that
we utilize many of us utilize at home. And this
is where it gets kind of crazy, right because again,
as I said, the very real concerns that folks bring
up about distraction, like there are ways that we can
innovate our way out of this. I know in my house,
(31:11):
I use an app called Aura. It's literally like I
have control over my kids devices. I can control when
they're on the Wi Fi. I can control exactly what
apps they use. I can track their text to make
sure that there's no like there are keywords, so that
if there are issues that they're dealing with that they
get flagged. For me, why aren't we doing that? It
(31:31):
would be so smart and so easy to be able
to create that bubble over schools, or have folks register
these numbers so that they could be restricted during the
school day while at the same time giving parents the
access to their kids and having that open line of communication.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Let's break this up first on. She talks about having
these apps like Aura that can really kind of control
everything on the phone. To me, the way she lays
at that sounds like a pretty good solution that doesn't
seem impossible for a school to implement.
Speaker 8 (32:04):
I don't know how it would work. I am skeptical
of that.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Do you think kids would be able to get around it?
Speaker 8 (32:09):
Kids?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Did you have like yeah, like face like the school
computers that wouldn't let you on Facebook?
Speaker 6 (32:17):
Yeah, we had specific stuff like I The issue is
the kids know more about the stuff than the parents.
To do whatever solution you're going to have to implement,
you have to be able to implement with everybody. And
I can see that working in some schools, right or
some classrooms where everyone is down. But what if three
(32:38):
or four of the kids' parents are like, actually, I
don't want that installed. The issue is like whatever you
put into place, they are going to people who don't
want to do it.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
The technology doesn't seem that complicated, like if on my
sports gambling app, for example, if I'm in a certain state,
it's just as bloop, you can't use it here. Yeah,
so that seems easy if they do implement some kind
of like bubble over these schools that like don't let
you use.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
I'm just sorry, we can't get like schools books. We're
gonna be implementing bubbles Like this is the thing with
these apps and stuff. It's like, yeah, it's gonna work
at like private schools or schools that already have a
lot of resources. The schools that really need this the
most are not gonna be able to implement this stuff.
Speaker 8 (33:18):
They can't get like Trump is currently.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Trying to Bend a department of education, and we're talking
about getting smartphone apps. We gotta be realistic about what
it's like, what we're going to be able to do.
And I think installing apps on every kid's phone that
goes to that school is the most roundabout way to
(33:41):
just stop kids from using their phone.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
Just take the phones away.
Speaker 7 (33:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
She also before I even had a chance to bring
it up, she had a response to my go to
answer of just go to the front office like I
used to back in the day.
Speaker 12 (33:51):
And the other thing that I just I have to
address because I know our friends are going to say, well,
if you want to contact your kid, they want to
contact you, just go to the go to the phone.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
In the art.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I say, this is my when I first was having
this conversation, this is what I was thinking. So what's
your answer to that?
Speaker 12 (34:09):
Freaking wild I want to be like, do you have
kids in a school, like an actual school. Have you
ever tried to call and get a hold that God
blessed that school secretary. Okay, here in Massachusetts you got
two three thousand kids in a high school trying to
get a hold of your child in that school building
(34:32):
or having them get a hold of you in a
line of kids, and that's that's not again in keeping
with reality, the schools have yet to figure out how
to effectively communicate with parents and families. So there's a
lot of work to be done on the other end
so that schools can earn our trust that they've got it.
Speaker 8 (34:53):
Fair point. I think Jesus one hundred valid.
Speaker 6 (34:56):
I think if you want to take people's phones away,
you should be able to notify the parents. If there's
a drill or a lockdown, you should probably figure that out.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And then lastly, to close out, she told me that
it's not just the phones that are creating this disengagement
in the classrooms, but maybe teaching methods need an update
or a change.
Speaker 12 (35:15):
The issues that we have with cell phones and the
obsession and the amount of engagement we have with this
technology is really a symptom of a greater disease, and
that is the fact that kids are disengaged from our classrooms.
We don't have good classroom management. You know, the little
four year old kid who can't wait to tell you
(35:36):
everything they know about dinosaurs and all the facts and
everything they've learned. That fire is extinguished, that sparkle leaves,
and that's the real problem, is that our teens, their
brains are seeking that engagement. So I think that, like
when we double click on this, like, shouldn't we be
asking the question like why are our kids who are
(35:58):
so hungry for knowledge, who want to learn, why are
they so checked out about what's actually happening in the classroom.
Because where you will see a difference, teachers that have
the ability to engage kids, that have really good practices
around classroom management generally don't have a hard time around
keeping kids off cell phones. And that is really if
(36:21):
we really want to address the issue and get to
the core of it, I mean, you could ban it.
I guess is it really going to address the problem?
I don't think so.
Speaker 6 (36:29):
Talking about like the real world work is boring. A
lot of times, you're going to be bored in places.
Not everything is going to be engaging, And I think
part of learning to be an adult is learning how
to be bored in a way that is productive.
Speaker 8 (36:45):
Yeah, and I think.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
That just because your teacher is boring shouldn't be an
excuse for you to be on your phone.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, I mean, of course not.
Speaker 8 (36:54):
But I do agree that.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
Just getting rid of phones does not mean that kids
are strongly going to be better at learning. You have
to complement that of also engaging them in new ways.
We're not suddenly matching China in terms of education because
we took the phone.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Well, it's a lot easier to believe that, you know,
you know, a kid's not going to excel just because
you take their phone away. But it's a lot easier
to believe that a kid is failing to excel because
their phone is there.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So this leads me to the next
thing I want to look into when we get back
is do these bands even work? Okay, so now we've
heard from Sabina who is for the bands, and then
we heard from Carrie who's against the bands. But I
(37:40):
wanted to find out if we've actually seen any results
as far as academic performance or mental health. Do these
bands even work? So looking into the research, it's pretty
difficult to sort out what's actually effective and what's not.
There's so many different variables across schools, states, countries, not
to mention social media algorithms always changing, COVID, etc. All
(38:02):
of which is a long way to say there's no clear,
conclusive evidence at this point. To say phone bans are
good or phone bands are bad. But there have been
some studies with more to come on the way, So
here's a little bit of what's out there. One study
from twenty sixteen out of England saw schools that had
bands had improved test scores, especially among low performing students.
(38:23):
The researcher said the effect of the bands was roughly
equivalent to an extra hour of schooling per week. A
twenty twenty two study in Spain saw a reduction in
cyber bullying and two regions with cell phone bands and
positive test scores. Question of mental health is a little
murkier and points to some of the issues are experts
discussed earlier in the episode. For example, one study from
the University of Birmingham in the UK compared mental well
(38:44):
being among students with restrictive and permissive school phone policies.
They found no evidence that restrictive policies helped mental health
outcomes in students and ultimately said that these policies need
further development. So now that we've heard all of this,
(39:06):
have you guys changed your minds at all?
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I think after everything we've heard definitely really good points
that I hadn't thought about before on the against band side,
especially with the implementation of the bands or restrictions, I
think I'm still leaning a little bit towards some kind
of restriction, maybe not a flat out band, but hearing
(39:29):
some of the data from Europe where we all note
there are not school shootings happening, and hearing the story
from Sabina, like, I'm just like, there's there's enough information
out there for me to be like, we should at
least try it.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, it's not as clear cut as maybe I wanted
it to be at the.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Start, and I'm certainly you know, there seem to be
people who are like I guess more alarmists about the
phones and schools than we are. Like, I just think
it would be a healthier environment for kids. But I'm
not like going to protest or anything.
Speaker 8 (40:07):
Like don't have kids.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
School.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
They won't let me within ten feet school.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
For another episode, Devin, you were you were pretty.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
Frank, came in flat than Yeah, pro you feel I
still feel that there should be a flat ban bell
to bell before this, I would say we should do
it yesterday. I do think there's some some work needs
to be done way to Yeah, I don't think we
should do it tomorrow, because I do think there's some
(40:41):
valid concerns of like, yeah, I didn't think it, but
you know, I went to a school with like three
hundred people, so I didn't think about the fact that, yeah,
if you have three thousand people and you have one
phone line, even if it's not a school shooting, if
I'm just trying to call my kid because of something
it's busy, yeah, yeah, you may get the busy signal.
Speaker 8 (40:57):
It's like, but we figured It's like, there's there's ways
those things.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
It seems like a couple hundred bucks could fix a
lot of it.
Speaker 8 (41:04):
I think we should.
Speaker 6 (41:05):
Yeah, we should put our efforts into making those things better, right,
Like are notifying parents, making it so that parents can
call the schools and not like hit a busy signal
versus I want to put my efforts into allowing kids
to keep their phones but putting apps on it and
(41:25):
a firewall on the school.
Speaker 8 (41:27):
I'm like, take the phones away.
Speaker 6 (41:29):
Just make it easier for parents to get in contact
with their kids and for kids to get in contact
with their parents. But I just think that kids, I
just there are adults who don't know how to communicate,
and I'm very worried that these you know, like we
call them the iPad kids are going to have a
real tough time in a real world because they're just
(41:49):
using that phone as a crutch day in and day out.
And I think it is so easy to get distracted
in school. We get distracted without phones. So it's like, yeah,
as much of the distractions that we can eliminate, the better.
I don't think it's a magic I guess we were
saying before, like.
Speaker 8 (42:05):
No more phones. Everyone knows is at an OFFICIAD thirty
six on the Act.
Speaker 6 (42:10):
But yeah, but like, let's not have more thing Like
it was hard enough for us to go to school
without phones, and like pay attention. Let's not allow more
distractions in the classroom if we can go back.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
To Yeah, I think taking into account a lot of
the things that I was most surprised by how much
these people did agree on things, especially with social media,
and there are these clear practical solutions that don't seem
they would like they would be particularly difficult to incorporate,
and I think addressing those would help alleviate this the
kind of distrust that exists because of kind of how
(42:44):
chaotic it sounds like it can be to be a
parent in this day and age.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, and I wonder just kind of looking forward. Devin
mentioned earlier like Trump is probably going to sign an
executive order. It might be signed by the time the
episode comes out that basically eliminates the Department of Education.
I do wonder how much that would play a role
into the school bands or keeping the phones in there,
(43:09):
Like if there's even gonna be resources for this, because
we're already so limited. Damn yeah, we might not even
be here. There might not be schools at all.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Thanks for listening to know such thing. This show is
produced by Noah Friedman, Manny Fidel, and Devin Joseph. Our
theme song is by Manny. Our guests today were Sabina
Polac and Carrie Rodriguez. For more, you can subscribe to
our newsletter at www dot no such thing dot show.
I'll be dropping links to our guests, websites and other
information I look that while producing this episode. Let us
know what you think or if you have any rex
(44:03):
for more info. Lastly, please give us a five star
rating and write a nice review wherever you're listening to us.
We really appreciate it. Thanks and talk to you again soon.
God bless, Get off the phones, Oh Pappa on Ring
Speaker 11 (44:19):
Ring, Come Money, weather, ringing, rap, tapping on
I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing.
The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours
by actually doing the research. On today's episode, why can't
kids just use the school phone like I used to?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
There's no no such thing, no such thing.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Such, thank.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Thank thank.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
So.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
A few years ago, my fiance Julie and I got
into a disagreement about whether or not our future kids
should have cell phones. My view at the time was, well,
I made it through high school and most of college
without a smartphone. You can do what I did and
just use the office phone if you need to reach
me or in your mouth to talk to people.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, ask one of your friends who has a phone, Yeah,
because they have nice parents. Her view was that times
have changed. I was in high school, you know, let's
say fifteen years ago.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
Yeah, yeah, like that, So I see you sad to
hear that, and our phoneless child would be an outlier,
a loser, maybe a pariah, and they'd be left out
of things if they don't have a phone.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
More and more states and school districts have been introducing
cell phone restriction policies. California Governor Gavin Newsom putting out
the call to all school districts to restrict cell phones
in the classroom.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
Governor Kevin Stitt once phones out of Oklahoma classrooms. Governor
Glenn Youngkin issued a executive order requiring the state's Department
of Education come up with policies to restrict or ban
cell phones for all grade levels.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
At least sixteen states have introduced legislation to restrict or
banned phones in schools. It's kind of hard to keep
up with as legislation is kind of in different stages.
Here in New York, our Governor Kathy Hochel just unveiled
a new plan to go into effect this fall.
Speaker 7 (01:51):
That a bell to bell ban warning until the day
is over, is not going to hurt your kids. It's
going to help them emerge with stronger mental health and resiliency.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
And that's broadly speaking. Teachers are in support of a bank.
According to a p report, seventy two percent of high
school teachers say phone distraction is a major issue, and
a survey by the National Parents Union said that seventy
percent of parents agree that cell phone you should be
banned during class, but more than half think that students
should be allowed to use them at other times outside
of the classroom, so launch reesas between classes, et cetera.
(02:23):
On both sides, a lot of this boils down to
safety concerns, so parents want to be able to reach
their kid during an emergency, whether that's a school shooting
or a mental health crisis. But on the other hand,
many pro banned parents cite the harms of social media
and cyber bullying and just playing distraction. So, having said
all that, and a disclaimer that none of us have kids,
but we have all gone to school and we all
also own cell phones, what do you guys think?
Speaker 8 (02:46):
Many?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, I don't mean to come off of the top
rope here, but I think please, I just think like,
if anyone's arguing that, like they need the phones in school,
the easiest thing to point to is that we've done
it before without the phones. As you said, times have
changed and there might be new reasons that you know,
new kind of factors at play today then when I
(03:08):
was in school, that that might make you need a phone,
But I just don't see it.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, Devin, Yeah, I think it's ridiculous to argue that
kids and need their phones in school. A phone from
bell to bell, So you don't need it during this Why.
Speaker 8 (03:24):
Do you need at lunch?
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I think I lean towards that you're both banned. Well,
I'm barely even allowing my kid to have a phone.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, but yeah, I'm just interested to know what the
real arguments are because I I've seen this debate a
lot online, but I haven't really been that plugged into it,
so in my head, I don't know. I'm not necessarily
pro band, but I'm definitely anti this idea that kids
absolutely need phones in school. Now, I also don't mind
(03:57):
like all right, classes over, whip your phone out, tech
your friends or whatever until the next class or at
recess or at lunch or whatever. Like I had a
I did have a phone my senior year of high school,
and it obviously wasn't a smartphone. It could only text
people or T nine. Yeah, I had T nine texting,
and I think I had like a really shitty deal
(04:18):
or no deal game on there. But it just wasn't
a piece of technology that I ever thought about killing
time with.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, obviously, the smartphone thing is so different than even
if you were like a texting addict. It's like that
just pales in comparison to a smartphone where you have
TikTok or Instagram or whatever. Ye like, even if your
text all the time, you can only do so much,
you know, because.
Speaker 8 (04:43):
It requires someone else.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah, I mean, just like taking the schools and kids
out of it. It's like we're all addicted to our phones. Yeah, yeah,
because of these things too. It's like, I think that's
what makes it difficult too, is I think there are
a lot of adults who can't reckon with the fact
that maybe they also have an issue with the phones,
and maybe that colors how they treat the children. Like
you said, we're largely unaffected by the school specific issue,
(05:07):
but I can see there being a great argument for
kids needing a place to not be on their phones,
Like at some point during the day.
Speaker 6 (05:16):
It's not like we're sending your kid off in the
woods and saying they can't have a phone and there's
no way to contact them.
Speaker 8 (05:21):
They're at a school, you.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
Know, the tough thing Like you're saying, it is like,
all right, the US schools are in asafe as we
want them to be. But I just think that you
got to think of the trade offs, and I think
having the phones and what that does to the kids
is worth the off chance of something bad happening and
you not being able to contact them immediately.
Speaker 8 (05:42):
But I also don't have kids.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
I also think there's this kind of strain where it's
like people kind of want to treat kids the same
as adults. Yes, which I get out of, you know, respect,
these are humans, Yeah, they have rights. At the same time,
it's like kids not be trusted to make the best
decisions for them since course, like it's why we don't
let twelve year olds drive cars. Yeah, yeah, you know,
(06:06):
or like yeah there, I mean time their brains aren't developed.
It's like they're learning how to be a human still. Yeah,
so it's like, yeah, like they might not like that
we're taking the phone away, but I mean, in my opinion,
they'll probably be better off if they can, at least
for five hours of their life not have the phone.
You think about like.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
The you know, we've we've heard so much in the
past few years, even in Congress, about like the harms
of social media. So you think about like if you
if you can imagine hearing a good argument for why
kids should have phones at all, then you're like, Okay, yeah,
maybe it's it's a lot easier to see that these
five or six hours at school, they shouldn't have them.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So next, I want to talk to people on all
sides of the issue. Let's hear them out, and I
want to see how these policies actually work in practice.
All of that after the break, All right, we're back.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
I'm Manny, I'm Noah.
Speaker 8 (07:05):
This is Devin.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
So I want to start with the case for banning phones,
since that's where the momentum is heading nationally. I spoke
with the co founder of an organization pushing for phone
free schools. It's aptly named the Phone Free Schools Movement.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
I'm Sabina Pollack, and I'm co founder of the Phone
Free School's Movement.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Sabina has a very personal backstory that got her involved
in this issue.
Speaker 9 (07:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
So, unfortunately, it all started with a phone call out
of the blue from my daughter's school counselor saying that
she was suicidal, which completely floored me.
Speaker 9 (07:44):
I had no idea she was struggling.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
Turns out, the main aggravator to that mental health challenges
that she was facing with social media and her social
media use. Long story short, she ended up spending six
weeks in a partial hospitalization program. I did a deep
dive into the applications she was using. Was pretty horrified
at what I was finding. Social media had pretty much
(08:08):
turned her from a thriving young person with aspirations goals
for the future, to someone that was unrecognizable, had no
aspirations anymore, had given up on herself. So when we
finally sent her back to school, our school had a
(08:29):
cell phone policy on paper, had trust that we were
sending her back to a school where they kind of
had her back taking the right steps. We found out
pretty much at the end of that semester that her
grades were falling, and we spoke to all her teachers
(08:51):
and said, is she using her cell phone? And unanimously
they all said, yep, she sits on her cell phone
all day during class. So here, not only did we
think that we were sending our daughter back to this safe,
healthy environment, but it was the complete opposite. No one
was going to tell us that these problems were going on.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Sabina told me she met with the school administration, who
said that they were aware of the issues with phones
and students, but were hesitant to really do anything about
it out of fear of reprisal from the community and
In Sabina's view, this issue couldn't be solved individually because
she tried to take her daughter's phone away but only
alienated her daughter further from her peers and made the
problem even worse. So I asked what she recommends.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
We did the boots on the ground research to try
to figure out, like what was making certain policies effective
and what was making other policies fail. And what we
found out was that it really needs to be an
all day bell to belle policy, so that means it's
not in their backpack, it's not in a personal locker.
(09:56):
It has to be you know, stored away from the
person or in a in something like a lockable pouch.
And especially with the classroom time only bands, were really
putting the burden completely on the teachers to have to
enforce that type of a ban. Some teachers are going
to enforce it at a higher level than others, and
then you have this inconsistency which leads to pushback from
(10:19):
students and even the teachers that are heavily trying to
enforce the policies. After a couple of weeks, they end
up kind of giving up on the policy, and by.
Speaker 9 (10:29):
The end of the school year. No one's really enforcing
it anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Like, not even ten minutes ago, I was saying how
I could see, like your phone gets banned in specific classes.
But now now hearing her, I can easily see why
all day makes a little bit more sense. Like teachers
are already so burdened, and I like all these factors.
They're probably so stressed out, they're underpaid. It does seem
(10:53):
unfair to put like one more thing on them.
Speaker 8 (10:55):
Now, just like kids.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, it's hard enough obviously to be a teacher. So
another common thing you'll hear against bens is what if
my kid needs to reach me. Here's what Sabina had
to say to that.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So we're hearing from mental health professionals that you really
need to equip these kids, even the ones that have anxiety,
with other type of coping mechanisms. Even in the real world,
they're going to have to have several different types of
coping methods to be able to navigate a job and
so forth. Kids having twenty four access to their parents
(11:30):
can sometimes fuel anxiety. Schools were typically the safe spaces,
you know, It's the first place that they were independent
from their parents and kind of could experiment through trial
and are with navigating that independence.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
When you look at the surveys, parents say they want
the kids to have cell phones in schools in case
there's an emergency. So obviously the most extreme and kind
of top of mind one often is school shootings. Do
you have a response to that line of argument.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, I mean, as a parent, I have to say,
I get it right, Like, that's a hugely emotional thing
that's on the top of all of our minds, but
we have to kind of make sure that we're separating
the emotions from the facts. So we know that phones
make kids much less safe in emergency situation, and that
(12:26):
comes from, you know, the fact that the phone could
alert an intruder of the hiding location of students, tying
up communication lines to first responders. And I have to
remind myself that the number one important thing is that
they're safe and that these teachers are highly trained in
(12:47):
these situations and to kind of rely on them and
their expertise to handle the situation. There's simple solutions that
schools can take, you know, that are cost effective, whether
it's installing panic buttons in each classrooms that allowed the
direct line to emergency response I don't think that arming
(13:12):
kids with cell phones and replacing one harm with another
is the solution.
Speaker 9 (13:18):
There's got to be something else.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Social Media obviously is a huge, probably the biggest kind
of catalyst in this whole debate. So obviously school is
only part of the day, you know, from whatever seven
thirty to two thirty. So I asked if focusing on
social media regulation might be a better thing to focus
on than getting phones out of schools.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Fixing the problems with social media definitely, you know, it
has to happen. We're obviously huge supporters of KOSA and
bills like that. Unfortunately, those things aren't going to happen
fast enough where our kids need it to happen. We
need to find other solutions in the meantime. Number One,
(14:03):
we are by no means suggesting that phone free schools
are the only solution, but we do really feel like
it's an important for at step and changing a community
norm around phone use. We do have to realize that
these kids are addicted, and so giving them the seven
plus hours a day to collectively experience life as a group,
(14:26):
as a community without social media is really some of
the best digital literacy that we can provide.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So Sabina mentioned KOSA. That's the Kids Online Safety Act.
It's a bipartisan bill that was passed by the Senate
in July twenty twenty four, but Congress hasn't voted on
it yet.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
Young people will take back control over their on law lives.
Parents will have tools to safeguard those young people. They
will be able to disconnect from the addictive features and
opt out of those black box algorithms that drive at
them relentlessly, be eating disorders, bullying, fentanyl, sex exploitation, self harm,
(15:07):
and all too often suicide and bullying.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That Senator Richard Blumenthal one of the co sponsors of
the bill. I don't want to get too far into
the weeds here, but it's garnered a bit of controversy.
Groups like the ACLU argue that it's a First Amendment violation,
and they say it could be used to sensor info
on things like sexual health and gender identity or getting
help with eating disorders. Basically, what Constitute says harmful needs
to be more specific. We're not going to debate KOSA,
(15:36):
but generally so like, that's not the point here. Yeah,
do you guys agree that cutting social media use during
school might help overall with maybe addiction outside of see.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
Yeah, if you're not using your phone for seven hours
straught today, it's going to make it easier for you
to not be on your phone when you're not at school.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And lastly, I asked if being had any insight on
how students actually are reacting to these bands, like how
do they feel.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
I don't know that we've heard from any schools that
have really had an issue when it comes to students
kind of adjusting to these policies and in many instances
actually being very thankful that these policies were put in place.
Speaker 9 (16:22):
I think school's biggest fear is they.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Think we're going to have pushback from students, and we're
seeing very little of that. But for the most part,
we're hearing positive things. I mean, if you think about it,
just kind of going to a school worrying that you
might drop your lunch tray and you might be videotaped
and all of a sudden, it's you know, all over
the internet. But it's just a lot of pressure and
(16:45):
when you remove that, they're all kind of breathing a
sigh of relief. I think one of my pet peeves
is when people say, well, my child has a right
to have a phone, and going through this experience, you know,
to me, I feel like my child and every child
has a right to a distraction free education, a right
(17:07):
to choose to go to school without a phone or
put their phone away and not feel isolated from everyone
around them.
Speaker 9 (17:16):
Kids have a right to that. They have a right
to a healthy school day.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
I had a visceral reaction to my kids have a
right to have a phone. I'm sorry, it's so I
get why you want your kids to have a phone.
Speaker 8 (17:33):
My kid has a right to have a phone.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Obviously, she wants to she wants to implement these policies.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
So I wonder like she's.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Broke if all of the kids were so positive about it.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I think one issue is obviously kids it's harder to
survey the same way you can adults. Yeah, so there's
just wayless data on what students think about these things.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
So a lot of this stuff is both fore and against.
It's pretty anecdotal, you know. So you'll see story about
school that put this in and there'll be one quote
from some kid who said, yeah it's cool, you know,
or I don't want this, you know, and it's like, well,
all right, well that's what Matt from this town.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
It's like, okay, Well, if I was, you know, not neutral,
I was leaning towards restrictions at the beginning of this episode.
Listening to her made me go a little bit further
towards that direction. So I'm interested to hear the people
on the other side of the argument. After the break,
we'll hear from a parent on the other side. But first,
some friends of the show shared their perspectives.
Speaker 8 (18:38):
Do you think school should ban phones?
Speaker 11 (18:41):
I think they should mainly because it used to be
like people participate in you got your side conversations.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
Now when you.
Speaker 11 (18:49):
Walk through the hallway just scrolling on TikTok Instagram reels,
it's like the hype is going about school, Like the
only fun part of school is like getting died down.
It's like nobody's even like talking in class, so you
don't even get the social activities anymore.
Speaker 8 (19:06):
So it's just a school, school, school, work, work work.
Speaker 11 (19:11):
It's not like I'm not that person I can discross
for I need things to do, you know.
Speaker 8 (19:16):
Yeah, and especially a.
Speaker 11 (19:18):
School when you have all these people around you, all
these friends or people that could be your friends, and
then you're just on your phone. It just defeasts the
purpose of a school.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
You know, as someone who has worked in a middle
school in New York City for the past seven years,
I have seen the benefit of rules against students having
their cell phones. We collect our student cell phones first
thing every morning. We don't entirely know the long term
effects that this generation will have and their access to
social media or the remote years of school due to COVID.
(19:49):
I love being in a school in classrooms where you
don't have to worry about kids being distracted by their phones,
and see it as a unique opportunity. It's so beneficial
to provide kids a sacred time and space away from
the outside world social media and just focus on their
education and building relationships with people in person.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And we're back.
Speaker 8 (20:14):
I'm Anny Noah Devin.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
So now that we've heard from the phone free school's movement,
it's time to turn to the other side. Fifty six
percent of parents say students should sometimes be allowed to
use their cell phones during the school day, and this
is according to a survey by the National Parents Union.
So I wanted to hear that a union. That was
my first question. Yeah, so that was My first question
(20:39):
is what is the National Parents Union.
Speaker 12 (20:42):
My name is Carrie Rodriguez, and I am Matthew Miles
and David's mom, and I am the president of the
National Parents Union. The National Parents Union is the united
independent voice of modern American families. So what we seek
to do is to bring together pockets of parents power.
We've got about eighteen hundred of them in all fifty states,
(21:04):
DC and Puerto Rico, with about one point seven million
members and reaching between eighteen to twenty million families every
single month through our infrastructure, where we seek to bring
together parents who want to make sure that the priorities
of American families are actually at the center of our
policy building, our legislation, and our politics. The majority of
(21:29):
American families actually do not want to ban cell phones,
which you know, may sound crazy when you think about it,
but it's actually pretty logical because what we have found
in our research is that parents view cell phones as
communications devices and really value the ability that we have
to have that direct line of communication with our kids
(21:51):
because in modern American life, whether it's the fact that
you know, half of families are divorced and we've got
folks sharing child custos, and you know, we no longer
have this nineteen fifties model where mom is waiting at
home or mom is going to the school and pick
like kids are by themselves, they're on public transportation. Having
(22:12):
that line of communication where we can track our kids,
know where they are, make sure that we are there
for them is something that is a part of modern
life and modern American culture.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Like Sabina, Carrie brings up the mental health crisis among children,
exacerbated by social media, but her argument is that because
of this, kids rely on direct lines of communication for
needed support.
Speaker 12 (22:33):
My youngest is a sixth grader. I've gotten calls from
the bathroom from a kid who's on a five four plan.
My youngest son saying to me like, Mom, can you
come get me? My teacher's not here. They don't know,
they don't know how to calm me down. I'm having
a panic attack. What can I do? I hop on
FaceTime with him to help him.
Speaker 8 (22:54):
To de escalate.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
What's interesting is there's already even just in this there's
so much that she does agree with the other side,
especially on social media and mental health and these things.
It's more like, do we go after the phones or
do we go after the apps? Yeah, because if you
both again, it sounds like if they got rid of
the apps and the phone was kind of like our
(23:16):
phones in school and it was just the dumb phone
where Okay, I can call my mom if I really
need to. Yeah, that might solve most of the issues.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
For that's a good distinction that it's not really like
banned phones. It's like ban the distractions on the phones.
Speaker 8 (23:30):
Maybe.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
I think where I disagree with her, and I think
she had a lot of valid points right about, like, yeah,
should this be more of a conversation. One point that
really stuck with me is her saying, you know, I
understand these I don't know what it's like to go
to school or be at a young age and go
through COVID. I know a lot of people had a
tough time with that, even our age, so I can't
(23:52):
imagine being a kid and losing that development time.
Speaker 8 (23:56):
I think.
Speaker 6 (23:58):
I just don't see a world in which it is
is good that your child is reaching out to you
throughout the day as a crutch.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
If you have a situation that severe, you know, then
there should be something else, YESD like yes, okay, I
need to go to the bathroom and call my mom.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
Yeah, like you should get a note, you should get
a doctor's serious.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And yes, like there should be other things in play.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
It shouldn't be the norm, it should be an exception.
At a certain point, they're not going to be able
to call you when they're in a tough situation, so
they're going to have to learn that skill. And yeah,
you would want to ease them into that, But I
don't think the response should be, well, I should just
always be available to my kid. It's like, yeah, when
we were growing up, we couldn't talk to our parents
(24:42):
during the day unless it was an emergency, right, Like,
you have to just figure it out.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
So I asked Carrie what an ideal policy would look like.
Her emphasis, again was on including parents and students in
the policy making and underlining the reality that we we
do live in the cell phone age, for better or worse.
Speaker 12 (25:01):
An ideal policy incorporates the concerns that teachers have around
distraction disruption, but also takes into the account the fact
that we are pushing our kids into a digital society
where they're going to have to be competitive in a
global economy where these devices are going to be a
part of everyday life. And it's also our obligation to
(25:23):
teach our children the behavioral management skills to have a
healthy relationship with technology. Now we can ban things, you know,
we try this with a lot of stuff, like maybe
abstinence education. The best way not to have pregnant teenagers
right is just to tell them don't have sex, right,
don't do drugs like that's always our go to is
(25:44):
to be like, well, just tell them not to do it.
That doesn't work. Well, you know, it's never been an
effective strategy. I also see the antiquated classrooms that our
kids are spending hours a day, and with the idea
if you know, they're never going to have access to
this technology to help them with their everyday skills that
(26:06):
they're going to utilize, it just seems like a missed opportunity.
Speaker 6 (26:12):
The abstinence thing doesn't make sense because we're saying, basically,
during this period of time, don't do the thing.
Speaker 8 (26:16):
Yeah, we're not saying don't be on your phone. Period.
Speaker 6 (26:20):
We're saying, during this period of time, we're not going
to ask you not to be on your phone.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
And to be slightly fair to her, I think like
the analogy about abstinence and drug use, Like wasn't the
best analogy, but I do understand the point of like,
instead of banning something, you know from the ground up,
you can be you could, I don't know, focus more
education about it and like help kids understand what the
(26:45):
problems are and.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
Who, like who's responsible for that now in this scenario
where the kids are having the phones, who's responsible for
teaching the kids how to have that balance?
Speaker 8 (26:55):
Now?
Speaker 6 (26:56):
The teachers are Now that's the current situation wherein and
it's not working right. Yeah, So the parents are on
doing a good job of teaching their kids when to
not use their phones, and the teachers are struggling with it.
Like we're not at this point because it's not a
problem and someone just decided.
Speaker 8 (27:13):
Yea great, Oh actually it's just take the phones away.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
Yeah, there is a problem and that parents are not
doing a good job of it and the teachers are
struggling with it.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah. So kind of last on this, she again really
stresses wanting her voice to be heard, and she understands
the difficulty of enforcing some of these policies in practice.
Speaker 12 (27:32):
You can put whatever policy you want, I will tell
you that, Like, even when I do a TikTok about
this issue. The comments that I get from American families
are like, great, have your little policy. Let me tell
you about what's going to happen with my child, because
if you think I trust you like that in a
day and age where it is a standing possibility that
they could be shot to death and murdered in a classroom,
(27:54):
you're out of your mind. I will send my kid
with a burner phone. I don't care about your little policy.
We have made a decision in this country that we
are not going to do anything about gun violence. So
if all you got for me is thoughts and prayers,
all I got for you is my kid's going to
have a cell phone hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
Like.
Speaker 12 (28:12):
The argument will be, well, those are those are so rare,
which again I don't buy because you've had more than
two hundred and fifty instances of gun violence and we're
only in January. Friend. Oftentimes policies like this they come
to me after the cake is baked. I want to
be asked, are you hungry?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Do you want cake?
Speaker 12 (28:30):
Do you want a hamburger? Like That's the part of
the process that we need to be brought into so
that we can actually bring up these points about like
what we're concerned about, but unfortunately, you know, you bring
us in afterwards. What ends up happening is again the
concerns that I have, which are real and valid, around
(28:50):
kids being hurt, being unsafe, Like if you're not considering
like instances like that our special education community, frankly communities
of color and families that unfortunately have these policies more
directly implemented down upon them and unfairly subject their kids
(29:11):
to school discipline because there's just a bigger crackdown in
communities of color, Like these are very real things that
need to be considered.
Speaker 6 (29:18):
A really good point I think about who's going to
get in trouble for having these phones? You know, we
already know black and brown kids are disproportionately punished for
doing the same things as white kids. Is just just
another excuse to be like, hey, Dayshan, why.
Speaker 8 (29:35):
Are you always on your phone?
Speaker 6 (29:36):
Meanwhile, Billy's doing the same exact thing, but Dashawn's getting
suspended for it and Billy if not.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Maybe this just makes me feel like restrictions but flat
like blanket once they need to be stressed, because if
they're not blanket, then you do run into all these
issues area she's talking about, who's going to get in trouble,
our parents, going to give people second phones, that kind
of stuff. Now, maybe I'm just sliding slightly more to
or to the bell to bell versus class to class.
Speaker 12 (30:06):
I will tell you anecdotally from what I have seen
in focus groups, what is so compelling to me is
the lack of understanding around why we are allowing them
to be victim to the algorithm. And that is why
the National Parents Union and me personally, I am such
an advocate for KOSA, the Kids Online Safety Act, because
(30:29):
the real problem that we face is the lack of
regulation around social media and the lack of protection for
our kids and what they are allowed to be influenced by.
And frankly, every minute that we waste kind of having
this convoluted conversation is it the device or is it
the app? Like I'll tell you, it's the app we
(30:50):
actually have as parents, cell phone device management software that
we utilize many of us utilize at home. And this
is where it gets kind of crazy, right because again,
as I said, the very real concerns that folks bring
up about distraction, like there are ways that we can
innovate our way out of this. I know in my house,
(31:11):
I use an app called Aura. It's literally like I
have control over my kids devices. I can control when
they're on the Wi Fi. I can control exactly what
apps they use. I can track their text to make
sure that there's no like there are keywords, so that
if there are issues that they're dealing with that they
get flagged. For me, why aren't we doing that? It
(31:31):
would be so smart and so easy to be able
to create that bubble over schools, or have folks register
these numbers so that they could be restricted during the
school day while at the same time giving parents the
access to their kids and having that open line of communication.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Let's break this up first on. She talks about having
these apps like Aura that can really kind of control
everything on the phone. To me, the way she lays
at that sounds like a pretty good solution that doesn't
seem impossible for a school to implement.
Speaker 8 (32:04):
I don't know how it would work. I am skeptical
of that.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Do you think kids would be able to get around it?
Speaker 8 (32:09):
Kids?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
Did you have like yeah, like face like the school
computers that wouldn't let you on Facebook?
Speaker 6 (32:17):
Yeah, we had specific stuff like I The issue is
the kids know more about the stuff than the parents.
To do whatever solution you're going to have to implement,
you have to be able to implement with everybody. And
I can see that working in some schools, right or
some classrooms where everyone is down. But what if three
(32:38):
or four of the kids' parents are like, actually, I
don't want that installed. The issue is like whatever you
put into place, they are going to people who don't
want to do it.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
The technology doesn't seem that complicated, like if on my
sports gambling app, for example, if I'm in a certain state,
it's just as bloop, you can't use it here. Yeah,
so that seems easy if they do implement some kind
of like bubble over these schools that like don't let
you use.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
I'm just sorry, we can't get like schools books. We're
gonna be implementing bubbles Like this is the thing with
these apps and stuff. It's like, yeah, it's gonna work
at like private schools or schools that already have a
lot of resources. The schools that really need this the
most are not gonna be able to implement this stuff.
Speaker 8 (33:18):
They can't get like Trump is currently.
Speaker 6 (33:21):
Trying to Bend a department of education, and we're talking
about getting smartphone apps. We gotta be realistic about what
it's like, what we're going to be able to do.
And I think installing apps on every kid's phone that
goes to that school is the most roundabout way to
(33:41):
just stop kids from using their phone.
Speaker 8 (33:43):
Just take the phones away.
Speaker 7 (33:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
She also before I even had a chance to bring
it up, she had a response to my go to
answer of just go to the front office like I
used to back in the day.
Speaker 12 (33:51):
And the other thing that I just I have to
address because I know our friends are going to say, well,
if you want to contact your kid, they want to
contact you, just go to the go to the phone.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
In the art.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I say, this is my when I first was having
this conversation, this is what I was thinking. So what's
your answer to that?
Speaker 12 (34:09):
Freaking wild I want to be like, do you have
kids in a school, like an actual school. Have you
ever tried to call and get a hold that God
blessed that school secretary. Okay, here in Massachusetts you got
two three thousand kids in a high school trying to
get a hold of your child in that school building
(34:32):
or having them get a hold of you in a
line of kids, and that's that's not again in keeping
with reality, the schools have yet to figure out how
to effectively communicate with parents and families. So there's a
lot of work to be done on the other end
so that schools can earn our trust that they've got it.
Speaker 8 (34:53):
Fair point. I think Jesus one hundred valid.
Speaker 6 (34:56):
I think if you want to take people's phones away,
you should be able to notify the parents. If there's
a drill or a lockdown, you should probably figure that out.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And then lastly, to close out, she told me that
it's not just the phones that are creating this disengagement
in the classrooms, but maybe teaching methods need an update
or a change.
Speaker 12 (35:15):
The issues that we have with cell phones and the
obsession and the amount of engagement we have with this
technology is really a symptom of a greater disease, and
that is the fact that kids are disengaged from our classrooms.
We don't have good classroom management. You know, the little
four year old kid who can't wait to tell you
(35:36):
everything they know about dinosaurs and all the facts and
everything they've learned. That fire is extinguished, that sparkle leaves,
and that's the real problem, is that our teens, their
brains are seeking that engagement. So I think that, like
when we double click on this, like, shouldn't we be
asking the question like why are our kids who are
(35:58):
so hungry for knowledge, who want to learn, why are
they so checked out about what's actually happening in the classroom.
Because where you will see a difference, teachers that have
the ability to engage kids, that have really good practices
around classroom management generally don't have a hard time around
keeping kids off cell phones. And that is really if
(36:21):
we really want to address the issue and get to
the core of it, I mean, you could ban it.
I guess is it really going to address the problem?
I don't think so.
Speaker 6 (36:29):
Talking about like the real world work is boring. A
lot of times, you're going to be bored in places.
Not everything is going to be engaging, And I think
part of learning to be an adult is learning how
to be bored in a way that is productive.
Speaker 8 (36:45):
Yeah, and I think.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
That just because your teacher is boring shouldn't be an
excuse for you to be on your phone.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, I mean, of course not.
Speaker 8 (36:54):
But I do agree that.
Speaker 6 (36:57):
Just getting rid of phones does not mean that kids
are strongly going to be better at learning. You have
to complement that of also engaging them in new ways.
We're not suddenly matching China in terms of education because
we took the phone.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Well, it's a lot easier to believe that, you know,
you know, a kid's not going to excel just because
you take their phone away. But it's a lot easier
to believe that a kid is failing to excel because
their phone is there.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So this leads me to the next
thing I want to look into when we get back
is do these bands even work? Okay, so now we've
heard from Sabina who is for the bands, and then
we heard from Carrie who's against the bands. But I
(37:40):
wanted to find out if we've actually seen any results
as far as academic performance or mental health. Do these
bands even work? So looking into the research, it's pretty
difficult to sort out what's actually effective and what's not.
There's so many different variables across schools, states, countries, not
to mention social media algorithms always changing, COVID, etc. All
(38:02):
of which is a long way to say there's no clear,
conclusive evidence at this point. To say phone bans are
good or phone bands are bad. But there have been
some studies with more to come on the way, So
here's a little bit of what's out there. One study
from twenty sixteen out of England saw schools that had
bands had improved test scores, especially among low performing students.
(38:23):
The researcher said the effect of the bands was roughly
equivalent to an extra hour of schooling per week. A
twenty twenty two study in Spain saw a reduction in
cyber bullying and two regions with cell phone bands and
positive test scores. Question of mental health is a little
murkier and points to some of the issues are experts
discussed earlier in the episode. For example, one study from
the University of Birmingham in the UK compared mental well
(38:44):
being among students with restrictive and permissive school phone policies.
They found no evidence that restrictive policies helped mental health
outcomes in students and ultimately said that these policies need
further development. So now that we've heard all of this,
(39:06):
have you guys changed your minds at all?
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I think after everything we've heard definitely really good points
that I hadn't thought about before on the against band side,
especially with the implementation of the bands or restrictions, I
think I'm still leaning a little bit towards some kind
of restriction, maybe not a flat out band, but hearing
(39:29):
some of the data from Europe where we all note
there are not school shootings happening, and hearing the story
from Sabina, like, I'm just like, there's there's enough information
out there for me to be like, we should at
least try it.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, it's not as clear cut as maybe I wanted
it to be at the.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Start, and I'm certainly you know, there seem to be
people who are like I guess more alarmists about the
phones and schools than we are. Like, I just think
it would be a healthier environment for kids. But I'm
not like going to protest or anything.
Speaker 8 (40:07):
Like don't have kids.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
School.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
They won't let me within ten feet school.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
For another episode, Devin, you were you were pretty.
Speaker 6 (40:21):
Frank, came in flat than Yeah, pro you feel I
still feel that there should be a flat ban bell
to bell before this, I would say we should do
it yesterday. I do think there's some some work needs
to be done way to Yeah, I don't think we
should do it tomorrow, because I do think there's some
(40:41):
valid concerns of like, yeah, I didn't think it, but
you know, I went to a school with like three
hundred people, so I didn't think about the fact that, yeah,
if you have three thousand people and you have one
phone line, even if it's not a school shooting, if
I'm just trying to call my kid because of something
it's busy, yeah, yeah, you may get the busy signal.
Speaker 8 (40:57):
It's like, but we figured It's like, there's there's ways
those things.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
It seems like a couple hundred bucks could fix a
lot of it.
Speaker 8 (41:04):
I think we should.
Speaker 6 (41:05):
Yeah, we should put our efforts into making those things better, right,
Like are notifying parents, making it so that parents can
call the schools and not like hit a busy signal
versus I want to put my efforts into allowing kids
to keep their phones but putting apps on it and
(41:25):
a firewall on the school.
Speaker 8 (41:27):
I'm like, take the phones away.
Speaker 6 (41:29):
Just make it easier for parents to get in contact
with their kids and for kids to get in contact
with their parents. But I just think that kids, I
just there are adults who don't know how to communicate,
and I'm very worried that these you know, like we
call them the iPad kids are going to have a
real tough time in a real world because they're just
(41:49):
using that phone as a crutch day in and day out.
And I think it is so easy to get distracted
in school. We get distracted without phones. So it's like, yeah,
as much of the distractions that we can eliminate, the better.
I don't think it's a magic I guess we were
saying before, like.
Speaker 8 (42:05):
No more phones. Everyone knows is at an OFFICIAD thirty
six on the Act.
Speaker 6 (42:10):
But yeah, but like, let's not have more thing Like
it was hard enough for us to go to school
without phones, and like pay attention. Let's not allow more
distractions in the classroom if we can go back.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
To Yeah, I think taking into account a lot of
the things that I was most surprised by how much
these people did agree on things, especially with social media,
and there are these clear practical solutions that don't seem
they would like they would be particularly difficult to incorporate,
and I think addressing those would help alleviate this the
kind of distrust that exists because of kind of how
(42:44):
chaotic it sounds like it can be to be a
parent in this day and age.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Yeah, and I wonder just kind of looking forward. Devin
mentioned earlier like Trump is probably going to sign an
executive order. It might be signed by the time the
episode comes out that basically eliminates the Department of Education.
I do wonder how much that would play a role
into the school bands or keeping the phones in there,
(43:09):
Like if there's even gonna be resources for this, because
we're already so limited. Damn yeah, we might not even
be here. There might not be schools at all.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Thanks for listening to know such thing. This show is
produced by Noah Friedman, Manny Fidel, and Devin Joseph. Our
theme song is by Manny. Our guests today were Sabina
Polac and Carrie Rodriguez. For more, you can subscribe to
our newsletter at www dot no such thing dot show.
I'll be dropping links to our guests, websites and other
information I look that while producing this episode. Let us
know what you think or if you have any rex
(44:03):
for more info. Lastly, please give us a five star
rating and write a nice review wherever you're listening to us.
We really appreciate it. Thanks and talk to you again soon.
God bless, Get off the phones, Oh Pappa on Ring
Speaker 11 (44:19):
Ring, Come Money, weather, ringing, rap, tapping on
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