April 21, 2025 • 42 mins
What does it take to turn a childhood dream of flying into a 30-year aviation career?
In this first part of our two-part conversation, we explore the incredible journey of Captain Ken Petschauer, a veteran JetBlue pilot with over 16,000 flight hours. From soloing a plane at age 17 before he could legally drive, to navigating the cockpit of some of the most iconic commercial aircraft, Ken’s story is one of passion, perseverance, and precision.
Raised in New York City with a deep love for aviation, Ken shares how early mentorship, academic focus, and relentless curiosity helped him build a life in the skies. Along the way, we learn about the complex path to becoming an airline pilot, the real-world experience behind flight simulators, and what it’s like to live out your dream at 35,000 feet.
Whether you're fascinated by aviation or inspired by people who relentlessly pursue their goals, Ken’s journey delivers career insights that soar.
Episode Highlights:
- Getting his first pilot license before a driver’s license
- Overcoming early career roadblocks and economic turbulence
- The real path to becoming a commercial airline pilot
- Favorite aircraft, simulator secrets, and life as a JetBlue captain
- Balancing adventure, family, and flying
Don’t miss this engaging episode that explores what it truly takes to chase your passion and land your dream job in the skies. Tune in next week for Part 2, where Ken shares how he handles high-stakes decision-making, airline culture, and lessons from a life in the air.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ken Petschauer (00:03):
At 16, I probably took my first flying
lesson.
I soloed at 17.
It's just always been my dream.
Fortunate enough to live mydream for sure, the fear goes
away because when you're inthere in the cockpit it's like
home.
You're used to the sounds andeverything.
I became a graduate researchassistant.
(00:24):
I had some pretty good mentorsthen because they grabbed me by
the throat and said don't throwthis away.
And I'm glad I didn't becauseit really helped me in my career
.
When you get into the crazystuff, when they make us do
these recoveries from 65 degreebanks and all that other stuff,
you have to basically turn themotion off because you'll either
make yourself sick or damagethe simulator because it can't
(00:46):
you know it can't give you G'sbut you swear you're
accelerating or decelerating inthat simulator.
Larry Samuels (00:54):
Hello and welcome to the Career Journey Podcast
No Wrong Choices.
I'm Larry Samuels and I'll soonbe joined by Tushar Saxena and
Larry Shea.
Our guest today is Captain KenPetschauer of JetBlue Airways.
Before we bring him in, pleasebe sure to like, follow and
subscribe to the show whereveryou're listening.
Your support enables us to keepbringing these great stories to
(01:17):
life.
Now let's get started Now.
Joining no Wrong Choices isCaptain Ken Petschauer of
JetBlue Airways.
Ken is a pilot who's been inthe air for more than 30 years
and logged more than 16,000flight hours.
I can't begin to imagine howmany miles that is and,
interestingly, he is also a skipatroller for the National Ski
(01:41):
Patrol.
Ken, thank you so much forjoining us.
Thanks, guys, glad to be here.
Been looking forward to it aswe look at you.
Tushar Saxena (01:49):
You say that now yeah right.
Larry Samuels (01:52):
I feel like I need to ask this question going
in.
Are you actually talking to usfrom an airplane hangar?
Ken Petschauer (01:58):
I actually am talking to you from my hangar
right behind my house, thecredibility is off the charts,
yeah.
from my hangar right behind myhouse.
Larry Samuels (02:07):
The credibility is off the charts, yeah.
So, ken, we like to set up ourconversations by giving our
guests the opportunity to tellus who they are and what they do
.
I can run through a list, butit is nothing more than a list
of bullet points.
You know you better thananybody else, so please set the
stage for us.
Who is Captain Ken Petchour andwhat do you do?
Ken Petschauer (02:26):
So I guess first you know the personal stuff.
I'm married to a beautiful wifeof 12 years.
Her name's Alicia.
She's very patient and amazing.
You can yeah, you can imagine,and we have probably the best
beagle hound ever created.
He's eight years old andactually he's two, but they say
that's a good thing.
(02:47):
That is a good thing.
Yeah, he's pretty neat.
We're fortunate.
We live a great lifestyle, veryactive.
You know, I'm always outside.
I don't actually sit still verywell, which is kind of weird
because my job kind of requiresthat, but for some reason that's
different.
So it always seems like we'reout doing something.
I'm always running or skiing inthe winter or hiking.
(03:12):
I've been lucky to have greatadventures in my life.
I've done long distancesailboat racing and small boats
and adventure racing andhelicopter skiing and all kinds
of stuff.
So always looking for anotherchallenge or something that's
new or different, kind of likethis.
And I'm also like the computergeek around here.
It seems like I'm forever goingto somebody's house to fix
(03:35):
their Wi-Fi or build them acomputer or fix something for
them.
I'm always tinkering withgadgets and electronics and 3D
printing and things like that,always tinkering with gadgets
and electronics and 3D printingand things like that.
We also really like you know,new adventures.
So we'll take the plane totowns and cities that we haven't
been to before.
My wife's big into history, sowe like to go to historic towns
(03:57):
and do stuff like that, and wealso spend a lot of time up in
North Carolina.
That's where we do most of theskiing.
I have a little cabin up therein the mountains, so that's
pretty much what we do withoutgetting too detailed Excellent.
And then, professionally, I ama pilot for JetBlue.
I've been with them now for 22years and have before that I was
(04:18):
with TWA.
I don't know if you guysremember that airline.
Larry Samuels (04:21):
Sure, of course.
What was that movie with theguy who was the great scam
artist?
Ken Petschauer (04:25):
who uh, oh, uh, catch me if you can
catch me if you can, right, oh,I got all kinds of history about
that, because that building,all wing building, that the jet
blue hangar is behind I workedout of that building when I
first got hired.
Oh wow.
So I got to fly some of thejurassic jets we call them, you
know the 727s and the DC ninesand stuff.
So so I did that for a while.
(04:52):
So I have like 28 years beingan airline pilot and 38 years,
pretty much flying airplanesVery cool it's.
It leads into my my personallife too, because we do like dog
rescues in our airplane andthings like that.
It's just part of our life.
Larry Shea (05:03):
Hey, ken, so good to meet you.
This is Larry Shea.
I get the fun part bringing youback to the beginning and the
dream.
Let's dig into it.
Do you remember the first timeyou were in a plane and did that
oh God, absolutely Did thatbecome the dream Like at that
moment you're like this is thebest thing ever.
Ken Petschauer (05:25):
This is what I'm going to do for the rest of my
life.
So my dad was a pilot but hehad been out of actually flying
airplanes for many years beforeI was born.
He has a very unique storywhere he came over from Europe
and went back and came back andso he was out of flying when I
was born and he was in thetravel business but for some
reason and he didn't talk aboutit that much.
We would always talk about itonce in a while.
But at about eight years old Ijust always loved airplanes.
(05:46):
You know, if he had to go tothe airport to drop off tickets
or something, I'd always want togo Just smell the jet fuel and
look at the airplanes at Kennedyand LaGuardia.
I always liked Kennedy betterbecause I had the bigger
airplanes and the foreigncarriers.
He just always wanted to do itand then when he saw that I was
(06:13):
getting this interest, then Iwas fortunate, you know,
supported me and I startedflying like as soon as I was
able.
Yeah, I think at 16, I probablytook my first flying lesson.
I soloed at 17.
It's just always been my dream.
Yeah, fortunate enough to livemy dream for sure.
Tushar Saxena (06:22):
So what was that first plan?
And, by the way, this is aTushar speaking there, ken.
What was that first plan?
And, by the way, this is a twoshots being there, ken.
What was that first plan thatyou ever got your hands on?
that you were able to beginyour flying lessons in.
Ken Petschauer (06:31):
So yeah, the first time I ever was in a small
plane it was years, I wasprobably only 12 or so my uncle
actually took us up in a planefor like a discovery flight.
They just put us all in a planeand we flew around and at that
point already I was very muchinto airplanes and I was running
a flight simulator on the oldApple IIe computer.
You know, every five seconds itwould kind of turn a little bit
(06:53):
, you know, and had beenstudying the books from my dad's
old books and the new books andlearning about everything.
So the pilot was like, oh myGod, you know about all these
things already and I'm like ohyeah, you know this is what I
want to do.
But the first real, like when Ifirst started taking flying
lessons was, you know, right atabout 17 when I started actually
taking lessons.
And that airplane I'll neverforget it.
(07:15):
It's a Cherokee 140, a PiperCherokee 140.
And I can still remember whatit looks like.
I remember the end number on it, it was 7597, Romeo.
I even tried to find it.
Oh wow there are people who have, you know, found the airplane.
They sold it and actuallybought it, and I was thinking
about doing that or somethinglike that, but it's gone.
It's you know.
I don't know what happened toit, but it's no longer
(07:36):
registered.
Tushar Saxena (07:37):
So All right.
So I can only imagine that,obviously, when you're taking
lessons at 16, you don't evenhave your driver's license yet
Correct.
So what was it like, or whatwas that feeling like, when you
know you're going to school,you're growing up and you're
telling your friends, yeah, I'mgoing to go up and solo on a
plane, and they're looking atyou cross-eyed like you can't
(07:57):
even drive a car, but people areputting you behind the wheel of
a plane.
Ken Petschauer (08:00):
That was, you know, unique.
I grew up in New York city,right, so you couldn't even
drive till you were, I think youcouldn't get your license till
you were 19.
And you didn't.
You didn't start driving atlike 15 or 16.
Even, I think, at 18, I coulddo it, cause I went to, like I
did it, in high school, you know.
So I did driver's ed so I couldget it to license at 18.
But, um, but yeah, when I firststarted flying, my brother or
(08:23):
my dad would drive me out toLong Island.
I get an airplane.
You know, once I had a fewhours and it had soloed and was
flying by myself, I'd fly theairplane myself over to
Connecticut and back, you know,at 17.
And I, and then they'd have towait because I couldn't drive
the car.
Tushar Saxena (08:38):
All right, I also .
I've also got to ask you didyou ever give flying lessons
when you were still not allowedto drive at that point?
No, no, no, no, because I havean odd story.
On my 45th birthday I went toget flying lessons for the first
time.
I said I'm going to try, trysomething never tried before,
want to fly a plane.
We flew a cessna, but the kidand a mean kid in a very literal
(08:59):
sense did not have his driver'slicense and is teaching me how
to fly a plane.
I want to know if this is like,if I am unique, or if this is
kind of across the industry andif it is.
That's frightening.
No, you have to be.
Ken Petschauer (09:12):
It would take longer to get your CFI.
The CFI, the certified flightinstructor certificate.
It's like one of the.
It's one of the hardest ones toget.
You know it's way down the road.
You have a bunch of time beforeyou become a CFI.
So I doubt he was that young.
I don't know how old.
He might not have driver'slicense and could have been, you
know, whatever age.
Tushar Saxena (09:28):
Well, that's even , that's even worse to say if he
was of age to get a license andhad it suspended, but he's
flying around.
Larry Shea (09:34):
That's worse.
I want to get into the process.
I want to get into the theprocess of of you know what it
takes to get your license Justbefore we do that.
Do you ever have any troublewith heights in general?
Because, like, I'm afraid ofheights when I'm in an airplane
I'm like, oh boy, I'm like thewhite knuckler.
Ken Petschauer (09:51):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's not about heights.
I don't like heights either.
Like you know, pilots andladders are not a good mix.
Okay, because we tend to falloff.
God.
It's just ironic how manystories you hear about I was
trimming my trees or I wascleaning out my gutters and you
know I'm in the guys off for sixweeks or six months and all he
breaks fixes his back.
But um, I don't like heightseither.
(10:14):
If I'm, I did a lot of sailboatracing and they would send me
up the mast.
Okay, when you're on the mastof the sailboat and it's tipping
on a 44 foot boat, you canimagine how high the mass is.
That thing is swaying back andforth Even though I'm strapped
in.
I did not like that as far asheight.
So when you're flying, for somereason, it's just, it's not the
same.
It may be for other people, butthat's not like if I'm standing
(10:35):
on the edge of a building I'dbe like oh God you know.
But in the plane I, and I thinkthat's the same for a lot of
people, but I'm not sure.
I'm sure some other people haveacrophobia in every phase.
Larry Samuels (10:48):
I want to get to the journey, but before we do
that, I have to ask thisquestion when you talk about
climbing up a mast, so were youalways like the adventurous kid?
You're taking flying lessons,you're on a boat, you're
climbing a mast.
Who were you as a kid?
Were you always doing stufflike that?
Ken Petschauer (11:05):
It's funny, I guess inside I always was and I
guess to me flying is just whatall I've ever known and all I've
ever done, so to me to do it.
It wasn't like he asked earlierabout.
You know what did you tell yourfriends in high school when
you're going?
Well, my friends just knew Ikind of did it and I didn't
really talk it up much.
You know, the parents likedon't brag about it.
You know what I mean, don't?
So, I just that's just what Idid.
(11:27):
Everybody I knew I kind of didit.
So I guess that in itself isvery adventurous to me.
It wasn't that's all I wantedto do.
It's all I was going to do andit didn't seem adventurous.
But, and as I got older, then Istarted doing these other crazy
things, like these longdistance races and working on
sailboats and crossing the Gulfand everything in a 40 foot boat
and, you know, being sent up toVasquez.
(11:48):
I was the light guy.
They didn't want to crank theheavy guy, the BG.
They call him the big guy, youknow, and anyone crank him up?
Larry Samuels (11:57):
So let's, let's focus the journey a little bit.
You're young, you're you'reflying.
A little bit You're young,you're flying.
Was the vision at the age of 16or 17 to learn how to fly, or
was it to become a pilot and forthat to be your career, going
forward?
Ken Petschauer (12:14):
It was always to be a pilot.
Okay, just always wanted to bea pilot, you know, and
specifically an airline pilot.
Military would always be fun.
Hey, you could do a militarycareer, fly, you know a fighter
jet, you know who didn't want todo that as a?
And then go on to a militarycareer, just as my career
progressed.
The timing of it.
There were no flying slots.
After Vietnam, the governmentdownsized things.
(12:35):
There were very few flyingspots, so a military career in
aviation wasn't as available, ifthat makes sense.
Tushar Saxena (12:43):
What kind of schooling does that require?
In high school are you able tokind of build that skill set?
Obviously you're doing your ownprivate lessons at that point.
But like, if you're going toget a degree in I guess in
aviation, if that's what you did, or avionics for that sense,
what does that schooling looklike?
Ken Petschauer (13:01):
Back when I was going to go through and get
hired.
By the time I would be of ageand have the experience to get
hired, you needed a four-yeardegree and it could be in
anything.
Tushar Saxena (13:11):
It didn't have to be in aviation.
That was going to be our nextquestion, so you could have a
degree in English and stillbecome a pilot.
Ken Petschauer (13:16):
Correct, but you had to have some four-year
degree.
Now that's even changed becauseof supply and demand.
But the path I decided to takebecause I knew it was going to
be a very competitiveenvironment by the time I would
be ready and I was always justinterested in aeronautics,
aviation itself.
I went to Henry RiddleAeronautical University, which
(13:37):
is, you know, they call it theHarvard of the skies or whatever
, but that was like the schoolto go to.
There's several other onesPurdue has an excellent aviation
program, among others but thatwas one of the schools to go to
if you wanted to be an airlinepilot and that would give you
the advantage that when you dogo to get hired you can show hey
, listen, my whole life has beendedicated to this.
(13:58):
So if it's you.
Compared to someone else,they're going to go well.
This guy's dedicated his wholelife and education to this
specific goal.
Hopefully, we would rather hirehim.
Larry Shea (14:07):
So that's the schooling aspect to the
four-year degree part of it.
I didn't know that.
That's fascinating.
And again, you said supply anddemand.
It doesn't really happen today.
What is the actual process,though, to get the pilot's
license?
Is it a certain amount of hours, obviously, taking off and
landing, or critical?
What is the process like?
Lead us through that a littlebit.
Ken Petschauer (14:27):
There are several levels of licenses that
you can get.
There's like the lowest one.
Right now they have what theycall like a sport pilot license,
but really if you're going togo into flying as a career or
even private, they call it.
The first level of certificateis called a private pilot
certificate and that has its ownspecific value of flight hours
(14:48):
you're required to have at aminimum.
Most people take a little bitmore because if you fly every
day you can do it maybe in theminimum.
If you fly once a week, you dolose some skills over the week
that you haven't done it or thetiming you have to do it.
So, but basically there's acertain amount of time of flying
the airplane, doing work in thepattern take off, some landings
(15:10):
and stalls and steep turns andall these other maneuvers you
have to be proficient at.
And then you have to do whatthey call cross countries.
So you actually have to go andfly to different airports that
are a certain distance away allby yourself to prove that you
can do it.
And you do several of those, ofcourse at different distances,
and then you know, you get backwith your instructor, you
(15:31):
practice up your maneuvers andthen you can take your checkride
, but there's a specific minimumnumbers hours, and that's
changed a little bit too.
And if you go through a programthough, like Emory Riddle or
some of these other flightschools, they have very specific
programs where you're going tostart at the private pilot level
, let's say, and progress allthe way through up to, like,
(15:55):
your certified flight instructorrating.
Since it's a very, verystructured school, they have
some waivers that you canactually have a little bit less
flight time Right, it's verystructured, as opposed to just
going down to Joe's flightschool on the corner and taking
lessons from that kind of person.
So there are several levels.
You have to first get yourprivate pilot and then
instrument rating, and then acommercial pilot, and then
(16:18):
eventually, probably, flightinstructor and eventually, once
you get your 1500 hours andflight journaling, you have to
be what they call an ATP or anairline transport pilot.
Larry Shea (16:28):
OK, so set the levels aside for a second and
answer this question for me Trueor false?
Ultimately, flying a planeisn't much harder than driving a
car once you've had all thatproper training.
Correct, really.
Ken Petschauer (16:42):
Yeah, shocking answer.
Flying is not.
You know, it's not rocketscience, it's a skill?
Tushar Saxena (16:47):
Well, it sort of is, isn't it?
Ken Petschauer (16:47):
Yeah, Flying is not.
You know, it's not rocketscience.
It's a skill.
Well, it sort of is, isn't it?
Yeah, well, it seems like itwhen you add all that stuff in.
You know I also did mention inall of these too, there's lots
of ground school.
With all of this too, theground school books are enormous
and there's lots involved withthat, and typically you try to
get your written tests donebefore the practical test or you
have to before you take thepractical test to get your
license.
But there's a lot to it anddepending on what level you're
(17:10):
in, you don't have to learn itat all those levels.
Flying itself isn't difficult,it's just the consequences for
mistakes are much greater.
Yes, of course the takeoff andthe landing.
Larry Shea (17:21):
those are the hard parts.
Ken Petschauer (17:22):
The staying in the air not that hard yeah
everybody thinks that landing isthe hardest or whatever it can
be.
It just makes it so challengingbecause it's different every
time.
You can't just go okay, do this, hold this for three seconds,
pull back this much, hold thisfor three seconds.
And it works, because theatmosphere is constantly
changing.
It's never exactly the same.
(17:44):
I tell people go, take your car, put two cones out and parallel
park it 20 times and be oneinch from the curb, or three
inches from the curb, or sixinches, and do that 20 times and
see how much times you getexactly right.
And then add, you know, ice orsomething.
Larry Samuels (18:02):
Can you tell us about the first time you landed
an airplane?
How old were you and what werethose emotions?
Ken Petschauer (18:08):
Oh man, well, I was 17 years old and you kind of
know that solo is coming.
You know it's the instructorspreparing you for it.
We took off out of Farmingdalethat's where I was doing my
lessons from and flew over toBridgeport, connecticut, and I
did like two landings and hesaid, pull over there on that
ramp.
(18:28):
And he just got out and I waslike oh, wow.
Yeah, I remember vividly.
I remember what I was wearing,I remember the runway.
I remember all of it becauseit's just, it's an amazing
feeling and accomplishment andthe fear goes away because when
(18:49):
you're in there in the cockpitit's like home.
You're used to the sounds andeverything.
The funny thing everybody tellsabout their first solo is the
instructor gets out and says hey, just so you know, you're going
to be in this airplane alonefor the first time.
My 180 pounds is not going tobe in it.
So on takeoff it's going toclimb much better than you're
used to, you know, and stufflike that.
Right, and you're like, oh geez, give me something else to
(19:10):
think about.
Tushar Saxena (19:11):
After you got out of your aviation school, what
was that first move for you?
Career wise after that.
Ken Petschauer (19:16):
So it was a little different for me than in
some maybe.
I graduated with my four yeardegree and it was a terrible
time.
Tushar Saxena (19:26):
Where were you?
What was your rank in yourclass?
Ken Petschauer (19:28):
You don't really know, honestly, you know, how
that all works.
Tushar Saxena (19:31):
I mean famously.
The late Senator John McCainwas, I think, last in his class
at the Naval Academy.
It turned out it was a terrificflyer as well.
Ken Petschauer (19:45):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know, and it's likethey said we're going to call
the guy who graduates last frommedical school doctor.
Right, I like that, but just myluck.
It was a terrible time.
The industry they had hundredsof pilots, if not thousands of
pilots on furlough.
The economy was bad.
Nobody was hiring.
The supply and demand part ofit was terrible.
There were pilots all over theplace and you couldn't even
(20:06):
really find like flightinstructor jobs or which now are
a dime, a dozen or anything, Imean it was just like very
little flying, so it was verydiscouraging.
I was fortunate I was using mycomputer geekery skills and I
was working at the university intheir airway science simulation
laboratory, working on flightsimulators and I had gotten put
(20:28):
in charge of a project to runtheir air traffic control
training simulator.
And when I went to leave,they're like you can't leave,
you run this whole thing.
And I was like, well, no, I'mgoing to go.
I got to go find a flying job,I'm a pilot.
And they were like no, youcan't go.
And they actually offered me afree master's degree.
Oh wow, to stay.
(20:49):
So I became a graduate researchassistant for them and they
actually offered me a freemaster's degree to stay.
So I became a graduate researchassistant for them and I had
some pretty good mentors thenbecause they grabbed me by the
throat and said don't throw thisaway.
You'll fly on the side.
You continue flying.
You know a lot of people aroundhere will get you know, we'll
get you some flight instructorhours, but don't throw this away
.
And I'm glad I didn't, becauseit really helped me in my career
.
So I stayed and did a master'sdegree about a year and a half
(21:12):
from there.
So got that done and thenthings started looking a little
bit better.
So my first job was basicallyflight instructing, which is
pretty much typical.
I got a flight instructor jobin Orlando and I was also doing
traffic reports, so I was flyingwith radio personalities with
us in the airplane and we weretransmitting live from the
airplane and that was a wholehoot.
(21:35):
I've got all kinds of storiesabout that.
Tushar Saxena (21:37):
What was the station?
It was a TV.
It was like four or fivestations in Orlando and it was
funny, they still had four orfive stations.
Yeah right, exactly.
Ken Petschauer (21:46):
And it was weird because you know know I was
never into the entertainmentindustry or whatever, but I, you
know I'd go check check out theplane, have to get the copy for
them to read, all the you knowoff the fax machine of all their
you know advertisers.
I had to read and the guys, itwas either one reporter or two
reporters, two airplanes to goup at the same time, sky one and
sky two, and they were thetraffic twins on one station and
(22:08):
on the other station.
They each had their ownpersonalities.
They were the traffic twins onone station and on the other
station.
They each had their ownpersonalities.
They were different people.
So it was just pretty unique.
One guy was this, another this,and on that station they were
the traffic twins.
It was pretty interesting.
Larry Shea (22:19):
So is this the first instance where somebody is
actually paying you to fly anairplane?
Ken Petschauer (22:26):
Yes, flight instructing and flying.
The traffic reports my firstreal flying job.
Larry Shea (22:31):
You talk about living the dream.
That's the dream right there,right.
And how old are you at thispoint?
Probably 22.
That's nice, right there,that's nice.
Ken Petschauer (22:41):
Yeah, I mean I graduated in college at 21.
So I was probably 22 or 23because I started this right as
I was finishing my master'sdegree.
Larry Shea (22:49):
Okay, this is as good a place to ask this as any
Favorite airplane to fly, andwhy?
Ken Petschauer (22:56):
757, no doubt.
Larry Shea (22:58):
Okay, why.
Larry Samuels (22:59):
Yeah.
Ken Petschauer (23:00):
I flew it for TWA.
It's just sexy Flew, amazing.
It was before the overautomated what I call jets that
we have today.
Uh, it still had like analoggauges, yet enough computers in
it, like with a flightmanagement system, you know the
moving map and stuff like that,which was relatively new at the
(23:22):
time.
A great mixture of that and itwas just incredibly powerful.
You could go go in and out ofjust about any field, never have
to worry about temperature,heat, weight, anything like that
.
It was just a perfect balance.
It was a great great Boeingairplane.
Very cool.
Larry Shea (23:38):
So you talked about the different levels of license
that you can get and so forth.
How transferable is it fromthis plane to that plane?
To that plane, I assume youhave to be certified for a
specific aircraft.
How much does the knowledgetransfer from one plane to
another?
Ken Petschauer (23:55):
essentially, Quite, honestly, a lot of the
knowledge transfers you can,especially with smaller
airplanes like I have a singleengine airplane.
If you have a twin engineairplane it's a little different
.
You have to have a differentrating.
Of course I have that rating.
If you have a twin engineairplane it's a little different
.
You have to have a differentrating.
Of course I have that rating.
And with small airplanes it'stypically you can fly it.
The biggest restrictions arewhat the insurance company allow
you to do, right, but theregulation wise.
(24:22):
In order to fly from like anAirbus, which I'm flying now, or
go fly to 787, you need whatthey call a type rating.
So if it weighs more than12,500 pounds, which all of
those weigh over that, you needwhat they call a type rating.
So typically how that works isif I'm in an airline that has
multiple different fleets ofairplanes and I want to go fly
the other airplane, I want tobid to fly in the bigger
airplane or the smaller airplaneor whatever.
(24:43):
They just train you on it andyou do it in their simulators
and you get a type rating inthat airplane and now you're
qualified on that airplane.
You can't switch Like I can'tgo fly, even if you were
previously on that airplane.
You can't just switch fleets.
You're only certified on onefleet.
They changed that years ago.
There was a time where youcould do multiple, but it's just
(25:03):
gotten so complicated with allthe electronics and computers
and systems that that's just notpossible anymore how real is
the simulation experience?
it is, it is.
The fidelity is unbelievable.
It's so accurate.
As we're taxiing, I can feelthe turtles.
(25:24):
We call them, you know, youknow, in the runway lights in
the center line they'll have a ataxi.
They're green and they look likea turtle, so we call them kill
a turtle.
Yeah, I'm killing turtles.
As you go over the bump, bump,bump, you feel that as you're
taxiing.
If you're at the gate in thesimulator and it's cold and
windy, you feel the simulatoractually moving with the wind.
Oh, wow, you can see cars onthe road.
(25:46):
You can see cars on the road.
You can see that they haveheadlights on.
You can see everything.
You know buildings have thenames of whatever businesses are
there.
I mean, it's just.
The fidelity is just, isincredible.
And the motion also.
When you get into the crazystuff, when they make us do
these recoveries from 65 degreebanks and all that stuff, you
(26:13):
have to basically turn themotion off because you'll either
make yourself sick or damagethe simulator because it can't
give you Gs.
But you swear you'reaccelerating or decelerating in
that simulator and if you everwatch one from the outside, it's
incredible how much they moveto simulate the stopping, like
when you land and you throw thereverse on and slam onto brakes
and you're in your shoulderharnesses and the problem is it
can't really give you thatrelease of it again.
(26:34):
Yeah, it seemed like that's.
The visuals actually go darkand before they reposition you
because it'll make you instantlysick.
Larry Samuels (26:42):
Wow, yeah, I'm imagining what is the captain
kirk thing?
They the kobayashi maru that hehad so for those who do not
follow star trek, as captainkirk was learning, they threw
like these crazy crises at himthat he had to solve in order to
get approved, and and that'swhat I'm imagining with you as
(27:04):
you're going through thesedifferent simulations are crazy
scenarios getting thrown at youthat you need to handle and get
through in order to getcertified and approved.
There's nothing crazy.
Ken Petschauer (27:17):
They don't want to negative train you either,
right, you don't want to be upthere cowboying it and stuff
like that.
We have very specificprocedures for very specific
incidences.
So you do get a lot of failures, but that's the whole idea.
And every time you go back totraining.
When I used to train, I was acheck pilot for the airline and
when I was a fleet captain I wasactually training check pilots.
(27:38):
So sometimes we would givethose guys a little bit more
than we would give someone elsejust to build confidence.
And I mean you can do all kindsof stuff failing landing gear
and engines falling off and butwe do get quite a bit.
I just went through myrecurrent training and you get
engine fires and hydraulicfailures and all kinds of things
like that, because that's whatwe need to deal with.
(27:58):
That's really why we're there,right?
Tushar Saxena (28:00):
oh, yeah, yeah.
So let's talk a little bit now.
Let's get back on the careerpath a little bit.
So you've been flying around,you've been dabbing into, you
know, you're a local celebrity,flying TV and radio
personalities around.
What would you say is yourfirst real job from that?
I mean, obviously that's a realgig, but I'm saying, like your
first, let's say, real job afterthat?
Ken Petschauer (28:21):
When you get your flight time right.
Oh, you get my flight time.
You have to have so many hoursNowadays it's like 1,500 hours
to get on with the airlines andyou need a lot of what they call
multi-time, right, so twoengine time, they want that.
So you need 1,500 hoursbasically to get hired an
airline.
There are some waivers if youwent to one of those Amity
Riddle schools in a specific andthat makes sense.
Or sometimes the military guys.
(28:42):
They get to get a break becausethey don't get to fly as much,
but they're also in a verystructured program.
It's so much about safety andthreat and error management and
systems and meteorology andeverything else that goes along
with it that the flying isactually a smaller portion of
the full education in aviation?
Tushar Saxena (29:00):
Yeah, I mean that portion.
But, like I said, your firstbig gig after that after yeah.
Ken Petschauer (29:06):
First big gig.
Yeah, this business is verysmall and I had a friend who had
a friend who was a retiredformer TWA pilot who had run a
corporate flight department outin San Jose, california.
So I'm in Orlando and it washey, you know, if you come out
here, I can get you some time.
And they had a Cheyenne 3,which is a turboprop, awesome
(29:28):
airplane, and they also flewanother twin and they're going
to start up like a charteroperation and they need a first
officer and with myqualifications I would actually
qualify to be the first officeron that airplane for them and
said hey, we're going to startthis operation up If you get out
here.
There's no guarantee of a jobor how much money you're going
to make, but I can get you totwin time and the multi-time and
(29:50):
some turbine time also, becausewe also fly part 91 a lot and
we'll get you trained.
And I was like holy cow Ijumped in the car.
You all moved cross country.
Larry Shea (30:00):
You didn't hop on a plane.
Yeah right, Exactly.
Ken Petschauer (30:03):
Yeah, I had no clue where I was going.
I didn't know what exit to getoff.
When I was there it was beforeGoogle Maps and all that stuff.
It turned out to be great.
It started real slow.
I got another flight instructorjob out there, also to
supplement income, and I starteddoing that and that started to
(30:26):
work out pretty well and then,as I was doing well for those
guys again, it's a smallbusiness you know other guys out
there in the San Jose area alot of little charters and stuff
wanted pilots that they couldtrain.
And I got phone calls from himgoing hey, you know, if you've
got time, can you come and flywith me?
And I flew with a bunch ofother guys and turboprops and
stuff like that to build all myflight time so I could get hired
(30:47):
with TWA.
Larry Shea (30:48):
Let's talk about moving to TWA.
How do you get that gigspecifically?
And then, how big of a learningcurve is it?
How different is it to work fora larger airline compared to a
smaller company?
That's a charter or a flightschool or something of that
nature.
What was the learning curve?
How different was it?
Ken Petschauer (31:09):
Yeah, I mean it was tectonically different.
When they hire pilots, it's aseniority-based system and when
they hire you, they still hadthe 727 and the L-1011 and the
747, which all had flightengineers.
I don't know if you guysremember that was a third pilot
up there and you're a pilot andyou're hired as a pilot, but you
don't have the seniority tohold that yet, so you'd be a
(31:29):
flight engineer, and this iswhere, like my education, was
just made the right decisionbecause, even though I didn't
have the amount of flight timethat their average pilot that
they were hiring had, becausethe hiring floodgates had opened
, I got hired in February of 96.
The hiring floodgates all of asudden opened again in mid to
(31:52):
late 95.
So in 96, they still had a lotof pilots that they could hire
that had a lot of experience.
I met their minimumrequirements but I wasn't what
you would call normally would becompetitive, just with flight
time.
But my background was uniqueand different and because I had
like a bunch of this turbinetime now of my time because I
(32:12):
was flying with this guy and myeducational background.
So when I was sitting in theinterview the first question she
asked me is like you know,you've got, you know, a master's
degree.
It wasn't common to have anaeronautics master's degree.
You know, you've got you know amaster's degree.
It wasn't common to have anaeronautics master's degree.
You know, back then andespecially my young age she was
like 22 or 24, whatever I wasand you've got this kind of
(32:32):
flight time which is lower thanwhat we normally see when you
meet our minimums.
But you know, you're sittinghere because you're different.
Tell me about that, because inmy resume and stuff.
I showed how I had gotten this.
You know what worked on this,these projects so that helped me
get get hired.
So I was very different.
I also was working on theflight simulator.
They actually gave me my flighttest in and I was showing the
guy giving me my flight test formy interview how to work oh,
(32:56):
that's great I had what theycall dynamic control loading.
That would like feel like you'reflying, and he couldn't get it
working.
I'm like like oh, here, we'regoing here.
And he's like how do you knowthat?
I said I helped build that.
Larry Samuels (33:06):
And he's like okay, then.
Ken Petschauer (33:09):
And also the guy I was flying for was a former
TVA pilot, so I knew all theircall outs, all their procedures.
So it you know it went well.
And then getting hired withthat was very different because
I had never been a flightengineer before.
But again, going through everyriddle, I had taken a class on
being a flight engineer in the727.
(33:30):
The education choice was theright choice, so it was not that
big of a deal, but it was hugeand a big advantage because, as
opposed to sitting in a pilotseat and all of a sudden going
eight miles a minute, you knowyou got to spend a little bit of
time in the engineer seat andgetting used to the airline
environment and how it worked.
So it made it a lot easier whenI transitioned to first officer
(33:51):
.
Larry Samuels (33:52):
And what does that mean?
You're in the flight engineerseat, I'm thinking about the
steps.
So you're a flight engineer,then you're a co-pilot, I
imagine, and then you're thepilot.
So describe the roles in acockpit.
Ken Petschauer (34:06):
The flight engineer basically ran all the
systems.
So there were no real computersrunning everything.
You were responsible forbalancing the fuel and all the
electricity and it was quitecomplicated.
You had three or fourgenerators, you had six, eight,
10 fuel tanks.
You had to pump the fuel backand forth.
I mean it was very, verycomplicated.
That's why you needed a wholeseparate person just to manage
(34:27):
the systems of the airplane.
Even back in the DC-9 days, whenthey got rid of flight
engineers, a lot of that isautomated, even though it's not
really computerized.
It was relays and stuff likethat that would take care of a
lot of those systems.
So nowadays you have the pilotflying and the pilot monitoring.
You've got the captain, who'sultimately in charge, and then
(34:48):
the first officer, who's secondin command, and basically we
swap roles, like when we I meanthe captain's always the captain
, but we swap flying roles.
So on one leg I'll be the pilotflying and he's the pilot
monitoring, and on the next legwe switch and they do the
landing, unless it's really badweather, an inexperienced first
officer or certain weatherconditions where they require
(35:10):
the captain to land.
Tushar Saxena (35:12):
All right.
So I want to talk a little bitabout the culture aspect of,
because I picture you like whenyou're doing essentially like a
flight, school or charter youessentially are showing up in
like jeans and a bowling shirt.
That's right, but obviously,when you're working in a
corporate environment, theculture has to be considerably
different.
The instrumentation, as youmentioned, is different.
So what's that like when you'reentering that type of a more
(35:35):
structured environment, like aTWA, JetBlue, etc.
Ken Petschauer (35:39):
It's actually easier because everything is so
spilled out exactly how you doeverything.
The manuals are large, theprocedures are detailed and
there's a procedure foreverything.
So it's almost easier than whenyou're with a flight department
that doesn't have quite therigid standards of the airline.
(36:00):
Far Part 121, we call it,that's the regulations that are
underneath standards.
So it doesn't mean that they'reunsafe or anything, it's just
you could be flying withdifferent guys that maybe do
things a little bit differenthere, or checklist use, stuff
like that.
When you fly for the airline,everything is specific to that
airline.
It's actually easier becauseyou know exactly what to study,
(36:22):
exactly what's expected of youand exactly what the other guy
is going to do.
Tushar Saxena (36:27):
And when you say you have a checklist, I mean, do
you have a literal clipboard?
You got to mark stuff off
Ken Petschauer (36:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah, so you don't mark stuffup, but it's a card, it's a
checklist.
Right, this checklist, thatchecklist.
So when you're trained to comeinto the airplane to get it
ready to fly, there's two things.
You have what they call a flow.
So I sit in my seat and I takea flow with my hand.
I go up and down every switchand every panel to make sure
everything's exactly where Iwant it, and then we check it
(36:51):
with a checklist to make sureall the critical items have been
accomplished.
Tushar Saxena (36:57):
You don't think about that part of it when
you're a passenger on anairplane that you know.
Larry Shea (37:02):
I will now.
You do now right, likesomebody's been there for an
hour and a half running throughevery single button and switch
and they're going to be there.
Tushar Saxena (37:10):
And you're going to be there an hour afterwards,
right, doing your post-flightstuff, correct?
Ken Petschauer (37:15):
post-flight's pretty quick.
I mean post-flight, we're off.
I mean we can be off beforesome of the passengers are.
Depending on how you know manypeople are on the plane,
post-flight is not all that much, especially if another crew is
coming in, if they're alreadywaiting in the jetway or
anything.
We shut the engines down, we doour securing checklist and I
like to say goodbye to thepassengers.
I kind of live the airlinepilot life.
(37:36):
But if we have to get to thehotel because we need rest or
something like that, we canleave it.
It's powered up and it's fine.
We are really careful to makesure that if they had done some
maintenance, that everything isexactly where it needs to be
before we go and the checklistis like the final backstop.
The airplane warns you to.
You know it's got warningsystems like your car, but the
(37:58):
checklist is the final backstop.
Larry Shea (37:59):
Very cool.
So, since we're on this part,talk about the lifestyle.
Talk about living in a hotelroom, talk about traveling all
the time, what your days off arelike.
Do you get four in a rowbecause you've been flying for
five in a row?
How does this?
How does it work?
Obviously, it's different witheach airline, but what's the
general lifestyle of a pilot?
Ken Petschauer (38:21):
You'd be surprised.
It's very similar across allthe major airlines.
It's all unionized and we allhave contracts that we know that
we have the same basiccontracts.
Right, there's just some minordifferences in it.
And what's so nice is it's veryflexible in most airlines and
if you live close to base, likeI do, I just drive an hour to
the airport.
It makes it a different life.
(38:42):
It's much easier if you live inbays and don't what they call
commute.
The typical schedule for a linepilot like myself meaning just
flying a regular line of time wecall it is somewhere between 15
to 17 days a month is what youwork, and I typically fly two to
(39:03):
four day trips.
So we have all kinds of tripsone day trips, two day trips,
three day trips, four day trips,five day trips.
The guys that live really closeto the airport, they like the
turns we call like a one daytrip where you just go to the
airport, fly to Kennedy and back, or maybe do three legs that
day, like a triangle orsomething, because they're home
every night.
So you can actually live thislifestyle and actually do that.
Now you got to be pretty senior, probably, and live very close
(39:25):
to the airport.
I prefer since I have to drivean hour each way, it's too much
to do.
Turns to fly three and four daytrips.
Typically you go out, fly twoto three legs a day, lay over,
do the same thing the next dayand the same thing the next day
for three or four days.
We have very flexible schedules.
We can trade with other guysand you can swap trips and you
(39:47):
can do other things.
It's pretty nice to be able tomove my schedule around.
Like when I'm doing the skipatrol stuff in the winter.
I move all my flying to likethe beginning of the month on
one month and then the end ofthe month and the next month, so
I get two weeks off in between.
Larry Samuels (39:59):
Oh, that's great.
Ken Petschauer (40:00):
Right, so it works out really well.
Now there are very strict rules, like you had mentioned.
We can't fly so many over somany hours in a day and that
depends on what time of day youstarted.
If you're flying into the WACL,you know the window of
circadian low for your body.
Then you can't fly as manyhours and you need more hours
rest in between flights.
So it's very complicated, butwe got computers to help us with
(40:22):
that.
to say, okay, yeah this is alegal trip.
That's not a legal trip.
It's usually not a problem,unless we run into delays and
cancellations and all kinds ofstuff, which is a large headache
.
Larry Samuels (40:33):
What is the maximum number of hours you're
allowed to fly in a day?
Ken Petschauer (40:36):
Typically nine.
Larry Samuels (40:39):
Okay.
Ken Petschauer (40:40):
Yeah, it could be eight.
It just depends if you startedlike two in the morning or three
in the morning.
It's typically nine hours andit's also based on how many legs
you fly and the time of day youshowed, but it's typically
about nine hours by the time I'moff duty.
Sometimes it could be 12 to 14hours.
It can be some pretty long dayssometimes, but you get used to
it and you get used to living inhotels.
(41:01):
You had asked me.
It's just a lifestyle and youmake the best of it.
You know, and there are greattimes too, like I can bring my
wife on if I have a long layoverin DC or something.
Well, we're going to go do somemuseums or something right.
Or we're down in the Caribbeanat a nice resort and you can
bring family or friends andstuff like that with you.
Beats working for a living.
Larry Samuels (41:22):
That concludes part one of this great
conversation with Captain KenPetchour.
We'll pick things up rightwhere we left off next week.
Thank you again for joining us.
If this episode made you thinkof somebody who could be a great
guest, we'd love to hear fromyou.
Please reach out to us throughthe contact page of our website,
which can be found atNoWrongChoicescom.
While you're there, check outthe blog for a deeper look at
(41:46):
our takeaways from each episode.
You can also connect with us onsocial media.
We're on LinkedIn, instagram,facebook, youtube and X.
On behalf of Larry Shape,tushar Saxena and me, larry
Samuels.
Thank you again for listening.
At 16, I probably took my first flying
lesson.
I soloed at 17.
It's just always been my dream.
Fortunate enough to live mydream for sure, the fear goes
away because when you're inthere in the cockpit it's like
home.
You're used to the sounds andeverything.
I became a graduate researchassistant.
(00:24):
I had some pretty good mentorsthen because they grabbed me by
the throat and said don't throwthis away.
And I'm glad I didn't becauseit really helped me in my career
.
When you get into the crazystuff, when they make us do
these recoveries from 65 degreebanks and all that other stuff,
you have to basically turn themotion off because you'll either
make yourself sick or damagethe simulator because it can't
(00:46):
you know it can't give you G'sbut you swear you're
accelerating or decelerating inthat simulator.
Larry Samuels (00:54):
Hello and welcome to the Career Journey Podcast
No Wrong Choices.
I'm Larry Samuels and I'll soonbe joined by Tushar Saxena and
Larry Shea.
Our guest today is Captain KenPetschauer of JetBlue Airways.
Before we bring him in, pleasebe sure to like, follow and
subscribe to the show whereveryou're listening.
Your support enables us to keepbringing these great stories to
(01:17):
life.
Now let's get started Now.
Joining no Wrong Choices isCaptain Ken Petschauer of
JetBlue Airways.
Ken is a pilot who's been inthe air for more than 30 years
and logged more than 16,000flight hours.
I can't begin to imagine howmany miles that is and,
interestingly, he is also a skipatroller for the National Ski
(01:41):
Patrol.
Ken, thank you so much forjoining us.
Thanks, guys, glad to be here.
Been looking forward to it aswe look at you.
Tushar Saxena (01:49):
You say that now yeah right.
Larry Samuels (01:52):
I feel like I need to ask this question going
in.
Are you actually talking to usfrom an airplane hangar?
Ken Petschauer (01:58):
I actually am talking to you from my hangar
right behind my house, thecredibility is off the charts,
yeah.
from my hangar right behind myhouse.
Larry Samuels (02:07):
The credibility is off the charts, yeah.
So, ken, we like to set up ourconversations by giving our
guests the opportunity to tellus who they are and what they do
.
I can run through a list, butit is nothing more than a list
of bullet points.
You know you better thananybody else, so please set the
stage for us.
Who is Captain Ken Petchour andwhat do you do?
Ken Petschauer (02:26):
So I guess first you know the personal stuff.
I'm married to a beautiful wifeof 12 years.
Her name's Alicia.
She's very patient and amazing.
You can yeah, you can imagine,and we have probably the best
beagle hound ever created.
He's eight years old andactually he's two, but they say
that's a good thing.
(02:47):
That is a good thing.
Yeah, he's pretty neat.
We're fortunate.
We live a great lifestyle, veryactive.
You know, I'm always outside.
I don't actually sit still verywell, which is kind of weird
because my job kind of requiresthat, but for some reason that's
different.
So it always seems like we'reout doing something.
I'm always running or skiing inthe winter or hiking.
(03:12):
I've been lucky to have greatadventures in my life.
I've done long distancesailboat racing and small boats
and adventure racing andhelicopter skiing and all kinds
of stuff.
So always looking for anotherchallenge or something that's
new or different, kind of likethis.
And I'm also like the computergeek around here.
It seems like I'm forever goingto somebody's house to fix
(03:35):
their Wi-Fi or build them acomputer or fix something for
them.
I'm always tinkering withgadgets and electronics and 3D
printing and things like that,always tinkering with gadgets
and electronics and 3D printingand things like that.
We also really like you know,new adventures.
So we'll take the plane totowns and cities that we haven't
been to before.
My wife's big into history, sowe like to go to historic towns
(03:57):
and do stuff like that, and wealso spend a lot of time up in
North Carolina.
That's where we do most of theskiing.
I have a little cabin up therein the mountains, so that's
pretty much what we do withoutgetting too detailed Excellent.
And then, professionally, I ama pilot for JetBlue.
I've been with them now for 22years and have before that I was
(04:18):
with TWA.
I don't know if you guysremember that airline.
Larry Samuels (04:21):
Sure, of course.
What was that movie with theguy who was the great scam
artist?
Ken Petschauer (04:25):
who uh, oh, uh, catch me if you can
catch me if you can, right, oh,I got all kinds of history about
that, because that building,all wing building, that the jet
blue hangar is behind I workedout of that building when I
first got hired.
Oh wow.
So I got to fly some of thejurassic jets we call them, you
know the 727s and the DC ninesand stuff.
So so I did that for a while.
(04:52):
So I have like 28 years beingan airline pilot and 38 years,
pretty much flying airplanesVery cool it's.
It leads into my my personallife too, because we do like dog
rescues in our airplane andthings like that.
It's just part of our life.
Larry Shea (05:03):
Hey, ken, so good to meet you.
This is Larry Shea.
I get the fun part bringing youback to the beginning and the
dream.
Let's dig into it.
Do you remember the first timeyou were in a plane and did that
oh God, absolutely Did thatbecome the dream Like at that
moment you're like this is thebest thing ever.
Ken Petschauer (05:25):
This is what I'm going to do for the rest of my
life.
So my dad was a pilot but hehad been out of actually flying
airplanes for many years beforeI was born.
He has a very unique storywhere he came over from Europe
and went back and came back andso he was out of flying when I
was born and he was in thetravel business but for some
reason and he didn't talk aboutit that much.
We would always talk about itonce in a while.
But at about eight years old Ijust always loved airplanes.
(05:46):
You know, if he had to go tothe airport to drop off tickets
or something, I'd always want togo Just smell the jet fuel and
look at the airplanes at Kennedyand LaGuardia.
I always liked Kennedy betterbecause I had the bigger
airplanes and the foreigncarriers.
He just always wanted to do itand then when he saw that I was
(06:13):
getting this interest, then Iwas fortunate, you know,
supported me and I startedflying like as soon as I was
able.
Yeah, I think at 16, I probablytook my first flying lesson.
I soloed at 17.
It's just always been my dream.
Yeah, fortunate enough to livemy dream for sure.
Tushar Saxena (06:22):
So what was that first plan?
And, by the way, this is aTushar speaking there, ken.
What was that first plan?
And, by the way, this is a twoshots being there, ken.
What was that first plan thatyou ever got your hands on?
that you were able to beginyour flying lessons in.
Ken Petschauer (06:31):
So yeah, the first time I ever was in a small
plane it was years, I wasprobably only 12 or so my uncle
actually took us up in a planefor like a discovery flight.
They just put us all in a planeand we flew around and at that
point already I was very muchinto airplanes and I was running
a flight simulator on the oldApple IIe computer.
You know, every five seconds itwould kind of turn a little bit
(06:53):
, you know, and had beenstudying the books from my dad's
old books and the new books andlearning about everything.
So the pilot was like, oh myGod, you know about all these
things already and I'm like ohyeah, you know this is what I
want to do.
But the first real, like when Ifirst started taking flying
lessons was, you know, right atabout 17 when I started actually
taking lessons.
And that airplane I'll neverforget it.
(07:15):
It's a Cherokee 140, a PiperCherokee 140.
And I can still remember whatit looks like.
I remember the end number on it, it was 7597, Romeo.
I even tried to find it.
Oh wow there are people who have, you know, found the airplane.
They sold it and actuallybought it, and I was thinking
about doing that or somethinglike that, but it's gone.
It's you know.
I don't know what happened toit, but it's no longer
(07:36):
registered.
Tushar Saxena (07:37):
So All right.
So I can only imagine that,obviously, when you're taking
lessons at 16, you don't evenhave your driver's license yet
Correct.
So what was it like, or whatwas that feeling like, when you
know you're going to school,you're growing up and you're
telling your friends, yeah, I'mgoing to go up and solo on a
plane, and they're looking atyou cross-eyed like you can't
(07:57):
even drive a car, but people areputting you behind the wheel of
a plane.
Ken Petschauer (08:00):
That was, you know, unique.
I grew up in New York city,right, so you couldn't even
drive till you were, I think youcouldn't get your license till
you were 19.
And you didn't.
You didn't start driving atlike 15 or 16.
Even, I think, at 18, I coulddo it, cause I went to, like I
did it, in high school, you know.
So I did driver's ed so I couldget it to license at 18.
But, um, but yeah, when I firststarted flying, my brother or
(08:23):
my dad would drive me out toLong Island.
I get an airplane.
You know, once I had a fewhours and it had soloed and was
flying by myself, I'd fly theairplane myself over to
Connecticut and back, you know,at 17.
And I, and then they'd have towait because I couldn't drive
the car.
Tushar Saxena (08:38):
All right, I also .
I've also got to ask you didyou ever give flying lessons
when you were still not allowedto drive at that point?
No, no, no, no, because I havean odd story.
On my 45th birthday I went toget flying lessons for the first
time.
I said I'm going to try, trysomething never tried before,
want to fly a plane.
We flew a cessna, but the kidand a mean kid in a very literal
(08:59):
sense did not have his driver'slicense and is teaching me how
to fly a plane.
I want to know if this is like,if I am unique, or if this is
kind of across the industry andif it is.
That's frightening.
No, you have to be.
Ken Petschauer (09:12):
It would take longer to get your CFI.
The CFI, the certified flightinstructor certificate.
It's like one of the.
It's one of the hardest ones toget.
You know it's way down the road.
You have a bunch of time beforeyou become a CFI.
So I doubt he was that young.
I don't know how old.
He might not have driver'slicense and could have been, you
know, whatever age.
Tushar Saxena (09:28):
Well, that's even , that's even worse to say if he
was of age to get a license andhad it suspended, but he's
flying around.
Larry Shea (09:34):
That's worse.
I want to get into the process.
I want to get into the theprocess of of you know what it
takes to get your license Justbefore we do that.
Do you ever have any troublewith heights in general?
Because, like, I'm afraid ofheights when I'm in an airplane
I'm like, oh boy, I'm like thewhite knuckler.
Ken Petschauer (09:51):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's not about heights.
I don't like heights either.
Like you know, pilots andladders are not a good mix.
Okay, because we tend to falloff.
God.
It's just ironic how manystories you hear about I was
trimming my trees or I wascleaning out my gutters and you
know I'm in the guys off for sixweeks or six months and all he
breaks fixes his back.
But um, I don't like heightseither.
(10:14):
If I'm, I did a lot of sailboatracing and they would send me
up the mast.
Okay, when you're on the mastof the sailboat and it's tipping
on a 44 foot boat, you canimagine how high the mass is.
That thing is swaying back andforth Even though I'm strapped
in.
I did not like that as far asheight.
So when you're flying, for somereason, it's just, it's not the
same.
It may be for other people, butthat's not like if I'm standing
(10:35):
on the edge of a building I'dbe like oh God you know.
But in the plane I, and I thinkthat's the same for a lot of
people, but I'm not sure.
I'm sure some other people haveacrophobia in every phase.
Larry Samuels (10:48):
I want to get to the journey, but before we do
that, I have to ask thisquestion when you talk about
climbing up a mast, so were youalways like the adventurous kid?
You're taking flying lessons,you're on a boat, you're
climbing a mast.
Who were you as a kid?
Were you always doing stufflike that?
Ken Petschauer (11:05):
It's funny, I guess inside I always was and I
guess to me flying is just whatall I've ever known and all I've
ever done, so to me to do it.
It wasn't like he asked earlierabout.
You know what did you tell yourfriends in high school when
you're going?
Well, my friends just knew Ikind of did it and I didn't
really talk it up much.
You know, the parents likedon't brag about it.
You know what I mean, don't?
So, I just that's just what Idid.
(11:27):
Everybody I knew I kind of didit.
So I guess that in itself isvery adventurous to me.
It wasn't that's all I wantedto do.
It's all I was going to do andit didn't seem adventurous.
But, and as I got older, then Istarted doing these other crazy
things, like these longdistance races and working on
sailboats and crossing the Gulfand everything in a 40 foot boat
and, you know, being sent up toVasquez.
(11:48):
I was the light guy.
They didn't want to crank theheavy guy, the BG.
They call him the big guy, youknow, and anyone crank him up?
Larry Samuels (11:57):
So let's, let's focus the journey a little bit.
You're young, you're you'reflying.
A little bit You're young,you're flying.
Was the vision at the age of 16or 17 to learn how to fly, or
was it to become a pilot and forthat to be your career, going
forward?
Ken Petschauer (12:14):
It was always to be a pilot.
Okay, just always wanted to bea pilot, you know, and
specifically an airline pilot.
Military would always be fun.
Hey, you could do a militarycareer, fly, you know a fighter
jet, you know who didn't want todo that as a?
And then go on to a militarycareer, just as my career
progressed.
The timing of it.
There were no flying slots.
After Vietnam, the governmentdownsized things.
(12:35):
There were very few flyingspots, so a military career in
aviation wasn't as available, ifthat makes sense.
Tushar Saxena (12:43):
What kind of schooling does that require?
In high school are you able tokind of build that skill set?
Obviously you're doing your ownprivate lessons at that point.
But like, if you're going toget a degree in I guess in
aviation, if that's what you did, or avionics for that sense,
what does that schooling looklike?
Ken Petschauer (13:01):
Back when I was going to go through and get
hired.
By the time I would be of ageand have the experience to get
hired, you needed a four-yeardegree and it could be in
anything.
Tushar Saxena (13:11):
It didn't have to be in aviation.
That was going to be our nextquestion, so you could have a
degree in English and stillbecome a pilot.
Ken Petschauer (13:16):
Correct, but you had to have some four-year
degree.
Now that's even changed becauseof supply and demand.
But the path I decided to takebecause I knew it was going to
be a very competitiveenvironment by the time I would
be ready and I was always justinterested in aeronautics,
aviation itself.
I went to Henry RiddleAeronautical University, which
(13:37):
is, you know, they call it theHarvard of the skies or whatever
, but that was like the schoolto go to.
There's several other onesPurdue has an excellent aviation
program, among others but thatwas one of the schools to go to
if you wanted to be an airlinepilot and that would give you
the advantage that when you dogo to get hired you can show hey
, listen, my whole life has beendedicated to this.
(13:58):
So if it's you.
Compared to someone else,they're going to go well.
This guy's dedicated his wholelife and education to this
specific goal.
Hopefully, we would rather hirehim.
Larry Shea (14:07):
So that's the schooling aspect to the
four-year degree part of it.
I didn't know that.
That's fascinating.
And again, you said supply anddemand.
It doesn't really happen today.
What is the actual process,though, to get the pilot's
license?
Is it a certain amount of hours, obviously, taking off and
landing, or critical?
What is the process like?
Lead us through that a littlebit.
Ken Petschauer (14:27):
There are several levels of licenses that
you can get.
There's like the lowest one.
Right now they have what theycall like a sport pilot license,
but really if you're going togo into flying as a career or
even private, they call it.
The first level of certificateis called a private pilot
certificate and that has its ownspecific value of flight hours
(14:48):
you're required to have at aminimum.
Most people take a little bitmore because if you fly every
day you can do it maybe in theminimum.
If you fly once a week, you dolose some skills over the week
that you haven't done it or thetiming you have to do it.
So, but basically there's acertain amount of time of flying
the airplane, doing work in thepattern take off, some landings
(15:10):
and stalls and steep turns andall these other maneuvers you
have to be proficient at.
And then you have to do whatthey call cross countries.
So you actually have to go andfly to different airports that
are a certain distance away allby yourself to prove that you
can do it.
And you do several of those, ofcourse at different distances,
and then you know, you get backwith your instructor, you
(15:31):
practice up your maneuvers andthen you can take your checkride
, but there's a specific minimumnumbers hours, and that's
changed a little bit too.
And if you go through a programthough, like Emory Riddle or
some of these other flightschools, they have very specific
programs where you're going tostart at the private pilot level
, let's say, and progress allthe way through up to, like,
(15:55):
your certified flight instructorrating.
Since it's a very, verystructured school, they have
some waivers that you canactually have a little bit less
flight time Right, it's verystructured, as opposed to just
going down to Joe's flightschool on the corner and taking
lessons from that kind of person.
So there are several levels.
You have to first get yourprivate pilot and then
instrument rating, and then acommercial pilot, and then
(16:18):
eventually, probably, flightinstructor and eventually, once
you get your 1500 hours andflight journaling, you have to
be what they call an ATP or anairline transport pilot.
Larry Shea (16:28):
OK, so set the levels aside for a second and
answer this question for me Trueor false?
Ultimately, flying a planeisn't much harder than driving a
car once you've had all thatproper training.
Correct, really.
Ken Petschauer (16:42):
Yeah, shocking answer.
Flying is not.
You know, it's not rocketscience, it's a skill?
Tushar Saxena (16:47):
Well, it sort of is, isn't it?
Ken Petschauer (16:47):
Yeah, Flying is not.
You know, it's not rocketscience.
It's a skill.
Well, it sort of is, isn't it?
Yeah, well, it seems like itwhen you add all that stuff in.
You know I also did mention inall of these too, there's lots
of ground school.
With all of this too, theground school books are enormous
and there's lots involved withthat, and typically you try to
get your written tests donebefore the practical test or you
have to before you take thepractical test to get your
license.
But there's a lot to it anddepending on what level you're
(17:10):
in, you don't have to learn itat all those levels.
Flying itself isn't difficult,it's just the consequences for
mistakes are much greater.
Yes, of course the takeoff andthe landing.
Larry Shea (17:21):
those are the hard parts.
Ken Petschauer (17:22):
The staying in the air not that hard yeah
everybody thinks that landing isthe hardest or whatever it can
be.
It just makes it so challengingbecause it's different every
time.
You can't just go okay, do this, hold this for three seconds,
pull back this much, hold thisfor three seconds.
And it works, because theatmosphere is constantly
changing.
It's never exactly the same.
(17:44):
I tell people go, take your car, put two cones out and parallel
park it 20 times and be oneinch from the curb, or three
inches from the curb, or sixinches, and do that 20 times and
see how much times you getexactly right.
And then add, you know, ice orsomething.
Larry Samuels (18:02):
Can you tell us about the first time you landed
an airplane?
How old were you and what werethose emotions?
Ken Petschauer (18:08):
Oh man, well, I was 17 years old and you kind of
know that solo is coming.
You know it's the instructorspreparing you for it.
We took off out of Farmingdalethat's where I was doing my
lessons from and flew over toBridgeport, connecticut, and I
did like two landings and hesaid, pull over there on that
ramp.
(18:28):
And he just got out and I waslike oh, wow.
Yeah, I remember vividly.
I remember what I was wearing,I remember the runway.
I remember all of it becauseit's just, it's an amazing
feeling and accomplishment andthe fear goes away because when
(18:49):
you're in there in the cockpitit's like home.
You're used to the sounds andeverything.
The funny thing everybody tellsabout their first solo is the
instructor gets out and says hey, just so you know, you're going
to be in this airplane alonefor the first time.
My 180 pounds is not going tobe in it.
So on takeoff it's going toclimb much better than you're
used to, you know, and stufflike that.
Right, and you're like, oh geez, give me something else to
(19:10):
think about.
Tushar Saxena (19:11):
After you got out of your aviation school, what
was that first move for you?
Career wise after that.
Ken Petschauer (19:16):
So it was a little different for me than in
some maybe.
I graduated with my four yeardegree and it was a terrible
time.
Tushar Saxena (19:26):
Where were you?
What was your rank in yourclass?
Ken Petschauer (19:28):
You don't really know, honestly, you know, how
that all works.
Tushar Saxena (19:31):
I mean famously.
The late Senator John McCainwas, I think, last in his class
at the Naval Academy.
It turned out it was a terrificflyer as well.
Ken Petschauer (19:45):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know, and it's likethey said we're going to call
the guy who graduates last frommedical school doctor.
Right, I like that, but just myluck.
It was a terrible time.
The industry they had hundredsof pilots, if not thousands of
pilots on furlough.
The economy was bad.
Nobody was hiring.
The supply and demand part ofit was terrible.
There were pilots all over theplace and you couldn't even
(20:06):
really find like flightinstructor jobs or which now are
a dime, a dozen or anything, Imean it was just like very
little flying, so it was verydiscouraging.
I was fortunate I was using mycomputer geekery skills and I
was working at the university intheir airway science simulation
laboratory, working on flightsimulators and I had gotten put
(20:28):
in charge of a project to runtheir air traffic control
training simulator.
And when I went to leave,they're like you can't leave,
you run this whole thing.
And I was like, well, no, I'mgoing to go.
I got to go find a flying job,I'm a pilot.
And they were like no, youcan't go.
And they actually offered me afree master's degree.
Oh wow, to stay.
(20:49):
So I became a graduate researchassistant for them and they
actually offered me a freemaster's degree to stay.
So I became a graduate researchassistant for them and I had
some pretty good mentors thenbecause they grabbed me by the
throat and said don't throw thisaway.
You'll fly on the side.
You continue flying.
You know a lot of people aroundhere will get you know, we'll
get you some flight instructorhours, but don't throw this away
.
And I'm glad I didn't, becauseit really helped me in my career
.
So I stayed and did a master'sdegree about a year and a half
(21:12):
from there.
So got that done and thenthings started looking a little
bit better.
So my first job was basicallyflight instructing, which is
pretty much typical.
I got a flight instructor jobin Orlando and I was also doing
traffic reports, so I was flyingwith radio personalities with
us in the airplane and we weretransmitting live from the
airplane and that was a wholehoot.
(21:35):
I've got all kinds of storiesabout that.
Tushar Saxena (21:37):
What was the station?
It was a TV.
It was like four or fivestations in Orlando and it was
funny, they still had four orfive stations.
Yeah right, exactly.
Ken Petschauer (21:46):
And it was weird because you know know I was
never into the entertainmentindustry or whatever, but I, you
know I'd go check check out theplane, have to get the copy for
them to read, all the you knowoff the fax machine of all their
you know advertisers.
I had to read and the guys, itwas either one reporter or two
reporters, two airplanes to goup at the same time, sky one and
sky two, and they were thetraffic twins on one station and
(22:08):
on the other station.
They each had their ownpersonalities.
They were the traffic twins onone station and on the other
station.
They each had their ownpersonalities.
They were different people.
So it was just pretty unique.
One guy was this, another this,and on that station they were
the traffic twins.
It was pretty interesting.
Larry Shea (22:19):
So is this the first instance where somebody is
actually paying you to fly anairplane?
Ken Petschauer (22:26):
Yes, flight instructing and flying.
The traffic reports my firstreal flying job.
Larry Shea (22:31):
You talk about living the dream.
That's the dream right there,right.
And how old are you at thispoint?
Probably 22.
That's nice, right there,that's nice.
Ken Petschauer (22:41):
Yeah, I mean I graduated in college at 21.
So I was probably 22 or 23because I started this right as
I was finishing my master'sdegree.
Larry Shea (22:49):
Okay, this is as good a place to ask this as any
Favorite airplane to fly, andwhy?
Ken Petschauer (22:56):
757, no doubt.
Larry Shea (22:58):
Okay, why.
Larry Samuels (22:59):
Yeah.
Ken Petschauer (23:00):
I flew it for TWA.
It's just sexy Flew, amazing.
It was before the overautomated what I call jets that
we have today.
Uh, it still had like analoggauges, yet enough computers in
it, like with a flightmanagement system, you know the
moving map and stuff like that,which was relatively new at the
(23:22):
time.
A great mixture of that and itwas just incredibly powerful.
You could go go in and out ofjust about any field, never have
to worry about temperature,heat, weight, anything like that
.
It was just a perfect balance.
It was a great great Boeingairplane.
Very cool.
Larry Shea (23:38):
So you talked about the different levels of license
that you can get and so forth.
How transferable is it fromthis plane to that plane?
To that plane, I assume youhave to be certified for a
specific aircraft.
How much does the knowledgetransfer from one plane to
another?
Ken Petschauer (23:55):
essentially, Quite, honestly, a lot of the
knowledge transfers you can,especially with smaller
airplanes like I have a singleengine airplane.
If you have a twin engineairplane it's a little different
.
You have to have a differentrating.
Of course I have that rating.
If you have a twin engineairplane it's a little different
.
You have to have a differentrating.
Of course I have that rating.
And with small airplanes it'stypically you can fly it.
The biggest restrictions arewhat the insurance company allow
you to do, right, but theregulation wise.
(24:22):
In order to fly from like anAirbus, which I'm flying now, or
go fly to 787, you need whatthey call a type rating.
So if it weighs more than12,500 pounds, which all of
those weigh over that, you needwhat they call a type rating.
So typically how that works isif I'm in an airline that has
multiple different fleets ofairplanes and I want to go fly
the other airplane, I want tobid to fly in the bigger
airplane or the smaller airplaneor whatever.
(24:43):
They just train you on it andyou do it in their simulators
and you get a type rating inthat airplane and now you're
qualified on that airplane.
You can't switch Like I can'tgo fly, even if you were
previously on that airplane.
You can't just switch fleets.
You're only certified on onefleet.
They changed that years ago.
There was a time where youcould do multiple, but it's just
(25:03):
gotten so complicated with allthe electronics and computers
and systems that that's just notpossible anymore how real is
the simulation experience?
it is, it is.
The fidelity is unbelievable.
It's so accurate.
As we're taxiing, I can feelthe turtles.
(25:24):
We call them, you know, youknow, in the runway lights in
the center line they'll have a ataxi.
They're green and they look likea turtle, so we call them kill
a turtle.
Yeah, I'm killing turtles.
As you go over the bump, bump,bump, you feel that as you're
taxiing.
If you're at the gate in thesimulator and it's cold and
windy, you feel the simulatoractually moving with the wind.
Oh, wow, you can see cars onthe road.
(25:46):
You can see cars on the road.
You can see that they haveheadlights on.
You can see everything.
You know buildings have thenames of whatever businesses are
there.
I mean, it's just.
The fidelity is just, isincredible.
And the motion also.
When you get into the crazystuff, when they make us do
these recoveries from 65 degreebanks and all that stuff, you
(26:13):
have to basically turn themotion off because you'll either
make yourself sick or damagethe simulator because it can't
give you Gs.
But you swear you'reaccelerating or decelerating in
that simulator and if you everwatch one from the outside, it's
incredible how much they moveto simulate the stopping, like
when you land and you throw thereverse on and slam onto brakes
and you're in your shoulderharnesses and the problem is it
can't really give you thatrelease of it again.
(26:34):
Yeah, it seemed like that's.
The visuals actually go darkand before they reposition you
because it'll make you instantlysick.
Larry Samuels (26:42):
Wow, yeah, I'm imagining what is the captain
kirk thing?
They the kobayashi maru that hehad so for those who do not
follow star trek, as captainkirk was learning, they threw
like these crazy crises at himthat he had to solve in order to
get approved, and and that'swhat I'm imagining with you as
(27:04):
you're going through thesedifferent simulations are crazy
scenarios getting thrown at youthat you need to handle and get
through in order to getcertified and approved.
There's nothing crazy.
Ken Petschauer (27:17):
They don't want to negative train you either,
right, you don't want to be upthere cowboying it and stuff
like that.
We have very specificprocedures for very specific
incidences.
So you do get a lot of failures, but that's the whole idea.
And every time you go back totraining.
When I used to train, I was acheck pilot for the airline and
when I was a fleet captain I wasactually training check pilots.
(27:38):
So sometimes we would givethose guys a little bit more
than we would give someone elsejust to build confidence.
And I mean you can do all kindsof stuff failing landing gear
and engines falling off and butwe do get quite a bit.
I just went through myrecurrent training and you get
engine fires and hydraulicfailures and all kinds of things
like that, because that's whatwe need to deal with.
(27:58):
That's really why we're there,right?
Tushar Saxena (28:00):
oh, yeah, yeah.
So let's talk a little bit now.
Let's get back on the careerpath a little bit.
So you've been flying around,you've been dabbing into, you
know, you're a local celebrity,flying TV and radio
personalities around.
What would you say is yourfirst real job from that?
I mean, obviously that's a realgig, but I'm saying, like your
first, let's say, real job afterthat?
Ken Petschauer (28:21):
When you get your flight time right.
Oh, you get my flight time.
You have to have so many hoursNowadays it's like 1,500 hours
to get on with the airlines andyou need a lot of what they call
multi-time, right, so twoengine time, they want that.
So you need 1,500 hoursbasically to get hired an
airline.
There are some waivers if youwent to one of those Amity
Riddle schools in a specific andthat makes sense.
Or sometimes the military guys.
(28:42):
They get to get a break becausethey don't get to fly as much,
but they're also in a verystructured program.
It's so much about safety andthreat and error management and
systems and meteorology andeverything else that goes along
with it that the flying isactually a smaller portion of
the full education in aviation?
Tushar Saxena (29:00):
Yeah, I mean that portion.
But, like I said, your firstbig gig after that after yeah.
Ken Petschauer (29:06):
First big gig.
Yeah, this business is verysmall and I had a friend who had
a friend who was a retiredformer TWA pilot who had run a
corporate flight department outin San Jose, california.
So I'm in Orlando and it washey, you know, if you come out
here, I can get you some time.
And they had a Cheyenne 3,which is a turboprop, awesome
(29:28):
airplane, and they also flewanother twin and they're going
to start up like a charteroperation and they need a first
officer and with myqualifications I would actually
qualify to be the first officeron that airplane for them and
said hey, we're going to startthis operation up If you get out
here.
There's no guarantee of a jobor how much money you're going
to make, but I can get you totwin time and the multi-time and
(29:50):
some turbine time also, becausewe also fly part 91 a lot and
we'll get you trained.
And I was like holy cow Ijumped in the car.
You all moved cross country.
Larry Shea (30:00):
You didn't hop on a plane.
Yeah right, Exactly.
Ken Petschauer (30:03):
Yeah, I had no clue where I was going.
I didn't know what exit to getoff.
When I was there it was beforeGoogle Maps and all that stuff.
It turned out to be great.
It started real slow.
I got another flight instructorjob out there, also to
supplement income, and I starteddoing that and that started to
(30:26):
work out pretty well and then,as I was doing well for those
guys again, it's a smallbusiness you know other guys out
there in the San Jose area alot of little charters and stuff
wanted pilots that they couldtrain.
And I got phone calls from himgoing hey, you know, if you've
got time, can you come and flywith me?
And I flew with a bunch ofother guys and turboprops and
stuff like that to build all myflight time so I could get hired
(30:47):
with TWA.
Larry Shea (30:48):
Let's talk about moving to TWA.
How do you get that gigspecifically?
And then, how big of a learningcurve is it?
How different is it to work fora larger airline compared to a
smaller company?
That's a charter or a flightschool or something of that
nature.
What was the learning curve?
How different was it?
Ken Petschauer (31:09):
Yeah, I mean it was tectonically different.
When they hire pilots, it's aseniority-based system and when
they hire you, they still hadthe 727 and the L-1011 and the
747, which all had flightengineers.
I don't know if you guysremember that was a third pilot
up there and you're a pilot andyou're hired as a pilot, but you
don't have the seniority tohold that yet, so you'd be a
(31:29):
flight engineer, and this iswhere, like my education, was
just made the right decisionbecause, even though I didn't
have the amount of flight timethat their average pilot that
they were hiring had, becausethe hiring floodgates had opened
, I got hired in February of 96.
The hiring floodgates all of asudden opened again in mid to
(31:52):
late 95.
So in 96, they still had a lotof pilots that they could hire
that had a lot of experience.
I met their minimumrequirements but I wasn't what
you would call normally would becompetitive, just with flight
time.
But my background was uniqueand different and because I had
like a bunch of this turbinetime now of my time because I
(32:12):
was flying with this guy and myeducational background.
So when I was sitting in theinterview the first question she
asked me is like you know,you've got, you know, a master's
degree.
It wasn't common to have anaeronautics master's degree.
You know, you've got you know amaster's degree.
It wasn't common to have anaeronautics master's degree.
You know, back then andespecially my young age she was
like 22 or 24, whatever I wasand you've got this kind of
(32:32):
flight time which is lower thanwhat we normally see when you
meet our minimums.
But you know, you're sittinghere because you're different.
Tell me about that, because inmy resume and stuff.
I showed how I had gotten this.
You know what worked on this,these projects so that helped me
get get hired.
So I was very different.
I also was working on theflight simulator.
They actually gave me my flighttest in and I was showing the
guy giving me my flight test formy interview how to work oh,
(32:56):
that's great I had what theycall dynamic control loading.
That would like feel like you'reflying, and he couldn't get it
working.
I'm like like oh, here, we'regoing here.
And he's like how do you knowthat?
I said I helped build that.
Larry Samuels (33:06):
And he's like okay, then.
Ken Petschauer (33:09):
And also the guy I was flying for was a former
TVA pilot, so I knew all theircall outs, all their procedures.
So it you know it went well.
And then getting hired withthat was very different because
I had never been a flightengineer before.
But again, going through everyriddle, I had taken a class on
being a flight engineer in the727.
(33:30):
The education choice was theright choice, so it was not that
big of a deal, but it was hugeand a big advantage because, as
opposed to sitting in a pilotseat and all of a sudden going
eight miles a minute, you knowyou got to spend a little bit of
time in the engineer seat andgetting used to the airline
environment and how it worked.
So it made it a lot easier whenI transitioned to first officer
(33:51):
.
Larry Samuels (33:52):
And what does that mean?
You're in the flight engineerseat, I'm thinking about the
steps.
So you're a flight engineer,then you're a co-pilot, I
imagine, and then you're thepilot.
So describe the roles in acockpit.
Ken Petschauer (34:06):
The flight engineer basically ran all the
systems.
So there were no real computersrunning everything.
You were responsible forbalancing the fuel and all the
electricity and it was quitecomplicated.
You had three or fourgenerators, you had six, eight,
10 fuel tanks.
You had to pump the fuel backand forth.
I mean it was very, verycomplicated.
That's why you needed a wholeseparate person just to manage
(34:27):
the systems of the airplane.
Even back in the DC-9 days, whenthey got rid of flight
engineers, a lot of that isautomated, even though it's not
really computerized.
It was relays and stuff likethat that would take care of a
lot of those systems.
So nowadays you have the pilotflying and the pilot monitoring.
You've got the captain, who'sultimately in charge, and then
(34:48):
the first officer, who's secondin command, and basically we
swap roles, like when we I meanthe captain's always the captain
, but we swap flying roles.
So on one leg I'll be the pilotflying and he's the pilot
monitoring, and on the next legwe switch and they do the
landing, unless it's really badweather, an inexperienced first
officer or certain weatherconditions where they require
(35:10):
the captain to land.
Tushar Saxena (35:12):
All right.
So I want to talk a little bitabout the culture aspect of,
because I picture you like whenyou're doing essentially like a
flight, school or charter youessentially are showing up in
like jeans and a bowling shirt.
That's right, but obviously,when you're working in a
corporate environment, theculture has to be considerably
different.
The instrumentation, as youmentioned, is different.
So what's that like when you'reentering that type of a more
(35:35):
structured environment, like aTWA, JetBlue, etc.
Ken Petschauer (35:39):
It's actually easier because everything is so
spilled out exactly how you doeverything.
The manuals are large, theprocedures are detailed and
there's a procedure foreverything.
So it's almost easier than whenyou're with a flight department
that doesn't have quite therigid standards of the airline.
(36:00):
Far Part 121, we call it,that's the regulations that are
underneath standards.
So it doesn't mean that they'reunsafe or anything, it's just
you could be flying withdifferent guys that maybe do
things a little bit differenthere, or checklist use, stuff
like that.
When you fly for the airline,everything is specific to that
airline.
It's actually easier becauseyou know exactly what to study,
(36:22):
exactly what's expected of youand exactly what the other guy
is going to do.
Tushar Saxena (36:27):
And when you say you have a checklist, I mean, do
you have a literal clipboard?
You got to mark stuff off
Ken Petschauer (36:31):
Absolutely.
Yeah, so you don't mark stuffup, but it's a card, it's a
checklist.
Right, this checklist, thatchecklist.
So when you're trained to comeinto the airplane to get it
ready to fly, there's two things.
You have what they call a flow.
So I sit in my seat and I takea flow with my hand.
I go up and down every switchand every panel to make sure
everything's exactly where Iwant it, and then we check it
(36:51):
with a checklist to make sureall the critical items have been
accomplished.
Tushar Saxena (36:57):
You don't think about that part of it when
you're a passenger on anairplane that you know.
Larry Shea (37:02):
I will now.
You do now right, likesomebody's been there for an
hour and a half running throughevery single button and switch
and they're going to be there.
Tushar Saxena (37:10):
And you're going to be there an hour afterwards,
right, doing your post-flightstuff, correct?
Ken Petschauer (37:15):
post-flight's pretty quick.
I mean post-flight, we're off.
I mean we can be off beforesome of the passengers are.
Depending on how you know manypeople are on the plane,
post-flight is not all that much, especially if another crew is
coming in, if they're alreadywaiting in the jetway or
anything.
We shut the engines down, we doour securing checklist and I
like to say goodbye to thepassengers.
I kind of live the airlinepilot life.
(37:36):
But if we have to get to thehotel because we need rest or
something like that, we canleave it.
It's powered up and it's fine.
We are really careful to makesure that if they had done some
maintenance, that everything isexactly where it needs to be
before we go and the checklistis like the final backstop.
The airplane warns you to.
You know it's got warningsystems like your car, but the
(37:58):
checklist is the final backstop.
Larry Shea (37:59):
Very cool.
So, since we're on this part,talk about the lifestyle.
Talk about living in a hotelroom, talk about traveling all
the time, what your days off arelike.
Do you get four in a rowbecause you've been flying for
five in a row?
How does this?
How does it work?
Obviously, it's different witheach airline, but what's the
general lifestyle of a pilot?
Ken Petschauer (38:21):
You'd be surprised.
It's very similar across allthe major airlines.
It's all unionized and we allhave contracts that we know that
we have the same basiccontracts.
Right, there's just some minordifferences in it.
And what's so nice is it's veryflexible in most airlines and
if you live close to base, likeI do, I just drive an hour to
the airport.
It makes it a different life.
(38:42):
It's much easier if you live inbays and don't what they call
commute.
The typical schedule for a linepilot like myself meaning just
flying a regular line of time wecall it is somewhere between 15
to 17 days a month is what youwork, and I typically fly two to
(39:03):
four day trips.
So we have all kinds of tripsone day trips, two day trips,
three day trips, four day trips,five day trips.
The guys that live really closeto the airport, they like the
turns we call like a one daytrip where you just go to the
airport, fly to Kennedy and back, or maybe do three legs that
day, like a triangle orsomething, because they're home
every night.
So you can actually live thislifestyle and actually do that.
Now you got to be pretty senior, probably, and live very close
(39:25):
to the airport.
I prefer since I have to drivean hour each way, it's too much
to do.
Turns to fly three and four daytrips.
Typically you go out, fly twoto three legs a day, lay over,
do the same thing the next dayand the same thing the next day
for three or four days.
We have very flexible schedules.
We can trade with other guysand you can swap trips and you
(39:47):
can do other things.
It's pretty nice to be able tomove my schedule around.
Like when I'm doing the skipatrol stuff in the winter.
I move all my flying to likethe beginning of the month on
one month and then the end ofthe month and the next month, so
I get two weeks off in between.
Larry Samuels (39:59):
Oh, that's great.
Ken Petschauer (40:00):
Right, so it works out really well.
Now there are very strict rules, like you had mentioned.
We can't fly so many over somany hours in a day and that
depends on what time of day youstarted.
If you're flying into the WACL,you know the window of
circadian low for your body.
Then you can't fly as manyhours and you need more hours
rest in between flights.
So it's very complicated, butwe got computers to help us with
(40:22):
that.
to say, okay, yeah this is alegal trip.
That's not a legal trip.
It's usually not a problem,unless we run into delays and
cancellations and all kinds ofstuff, which is a large headache
.
Larry Samuels (40:33):
What is the maximum number of hours you're
allowed to fly in a day?
Ken Petschauer (40:36):
Typically nine.
Larry Samuels (40:39):
Okay.
Ken Petschauer (40:40):
Yeah, it could be eight.
It just depends if you startedlike two in the morning or three
in the morning.
It's typically nine hours andit's also based on how many legs
you fly and the time of day youshowed, but it's typically
about nine hours by the time I'moff duty.
Sometimes it could be 12 to 14hours.
It can be some pretty long dayssometimes, but you get used to
it and you get used to living inhotels.
(41:01):
You had asked me.
It's just a lifestyle and youmake the best of it.
You know, and there are greattimes too, like I can bring my
wife on if I have a long layoverin DC or something.
Well, we're going to go do somemuseums or something right.
Or we're down in the Caribbeanat a nice resort and you can
bring family or friends andstuff like that with you.
Beats working for a living.
Larry Samuels (41:22):
That concludes part one of this great
conversation with Captain KenPetchour.
We'll pick things up rightwhere we left off next week.
Thank you again for joining us.
If this episode made you thinkof somebody who could be a great
guest, we'd love to hear fromyou.
Please reach out to us throughthe contact page of our website,
which can be found atNoWrongChoicescom.
While you're there, check outthe blog for a deeper look at
(41:46):
our takeaways from each episode.
You can also connect with us onsocial media.
We're on LinkedIn, instagram,facebook, youtube and X.
On behalf of Larry Shape,tushar Saxena and me, larry
Samuels.
Thank you again for listening.
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