March 24, 2025 • 52 mins
How do life’s biggest challenges shape the work we do?
For Andrew Chiodo, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and Therapist, the path to helping others started with understanding himself. Growing up gay in a traditional Brooklyn neighborhood, he had to navigate a world that didn’t always accept him. Then, as the AIDS crisis devastated his community, he found himself on the frontlines—advocating, fighting, and supporting friends through unthinkable loss.
But through it all, Andrew discovered something powerful: his struggles weren’t just obstacles—they were shaping his purpose. His journey from activism to social work led him to a career of helping others find clarity, resilience, and healing.
In this episode of No Wrong Choices, we explore how Andrew turned personal adversity into a lifelong mission, what it takes to thrive as a therapist, and the lessons we can all take from his path.
If you’ve ever wondered how to turn life’s challenges into something meaningful, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.
Key Highlights:
- Navigating identity while growing up in a traditional Brooklyn family.
- The impact of the AIDS crisis and his role in LGBTQ+ advocacy.
- How activism led him to a career in mental health and social work.
- The mindset therapists use to support others while managing their own emotions.
- Practical advice for anyone considering a career in therapy or social work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larry Samuels (00:02):
Some struggles shape us, others define our
purpose.
Those are the themes we explorein this episode of no Wrong
Choices, featuring the licensedclinical social worker and
therapist, andrew Chiodo.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I'm Larry Samuel, soon to bejoined by my collaborators
Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea.
(00:23):
Before we kick off, please besure to support us by liking,
following or subscribing to theshow, wherever you get your
podcasts.
Now let's get started, andrew.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Andrew Chiodo (00:35):
Pleasure, larry.
It's a delight to be here withyou and I'm happy to share the
stories and the arc of thecareer.
Larry Samuels (00:43):
Why don't you set the stage for us and just tell
us you know, in your own words,who is Andrew Chiodo and what do
you do?
Andrew Chiodo (00:51):
So, as of today and since 08, 2008, I'm a
psychotherapist, licensedclinical social worker in
private practice in the FlatironDistrict, wherein I treat
individuals, couples, familiesand adolescents for a variety of
(01:12):
psychiatric disorders, rangingfrom depression and anxiety to
ADHD, bulimia, gamblingaddictions and some alcohol and
drug addictions.
Um, that's been an outgrowth ofmany years of being in
(01:34):
hospitals and what preceded that, which got me into the work, is
a is a whole other story, um,which we can get to, but that's
been the primary practice for 17years privately.
Tushar Saxena (01:51):
Got it All right, so let's begin at the beginning
.
You know, were you always a kidwho wanted to help people?
Did you feel that you werebuilt to do do?
Were you built to be acaretaker, so to speak?
Andrew Chiodo (02:21):
Well, I grew up in a sliver of Brooklyn called
Diker Heights, which was, forbetter or worse in those days in
the late 60s, early 70s, veryprotected by the mafia and very
intense, and so it was veryCatholic.
(02:42):
We went to church every Sunday.
It was very Catholic, we wentto church every Sunday, and in
my household the drill was therewas Jesus Christ there was the
Pope and there was Frank Sinatra, Not necessarily in that order.
That was it.
Tushar Saxena (03:03):
Like you know, you genuflected at.
Andrew Chiodo (03:04):
Francis, albert and you were good.
So, but from a very early age Iwould say six or seven I
understood that I was different,and by that I mean I understood
that I had an attraction to men, but I couldn't, you know, it's
not something you verbalize,it's unconscious.
And so, as a result of that,you one, I started to sort of
(03:24):
pull back because I understoodit was dangerous.
I don't know how I understoodit, but I did, and I calibrated
my movements, my behavior, tothe environment, and so I was
very sensitive.
I was a really sensitive kid,but perceptive, and understood
that if I make a wrong move orif I'm to something, I could get
(03:48):
my ass kicked.
And that happened on occasion,as it did to many other kids in
the neighborhood.
And so I understood how tonavigate a neighborhood that was
very complicated and very kindof intense, because our parents
were raised by immigrants andthey had one foot in the old
(04:13):
world and one foot in the newworld.
They wanted us to assimilate,and so going to Catholic school
from grades one through eightwas intense and hard, and I
understood that.
When it came time to go to highschool, my parents said do you
want to go to Catholic schooland I said no.
So they put me in New UtrechtHigh School in Bensonhurst,
(04:36):
brooklyn, where I quicklygravitated to the school's
literary magazine and became theeditor and started to dabble
with writing and words.
And I was a kid who was alwayshad his head in a book or his
face in a book, or I'd go to thebleaker street cinema in those
days and watch foreign movies.
And I wanted to meet guys at 15or 16.
(04:59):
And I knew it wasn't going tohappen in Bay Ridge, brooklyn or
Diker Heights, and so Iventured in.
Beginning sophomore, junioryear of high school, I was in
the city every weekend, I was atmuseums and I wound up working
(05:20):
in Red Hook in those days, whichwas very rough, and at a paper
company, and met a fellow ofmine, a friend, and he was about
six years older.
And soon enough in my lateadolescence, like 16, 17, 18, I
found myself in the.
You know it was post stonewall,it was hedonistic, it was fluid
(05:40):
, and I found myself atunderground gay discos and
studio 54.
And I was doing all sorts ofstuff that was I shouldn't have
been doing, but I did it and itwas an education and it was a
lot of fun.
Larry Shea (05:56):
I want to ask you just real quick I need to
interject because that's such ahuge part of the layers of the
onion that are you basically,how did that affect you, kind of
hiding that aspect of your lifefor your entire childhood and
only letting it out in certainareas?
I mean that must have had aprofound effect on you in terms
of how you navigated the world.
Andrew Chiodo (06:17):
I learned how to compartmentalize very quickly
and to show parts of myself tosome people and not to others,
how to read a room very quickly,how to deflect with humor, how
to please people so that theywould not get too close to me,
so that they would know.
(06:37):
Now that was there.
When I got to New York andstarted to really develop a
community, I busted out and was,you know, ready, and so I met
my first partner in 1983.
And we were fortunate to have.
We had a great setup on PerryStreet in the village and we had
(07:01):
a floor through brownstone andit was a good relationship and
we we both were writers and Istarted writing fiction.
Um, I wrote for a literarymagazine called Christopher
Street, which at that time wasthe literary magazine of the day
for gay people, and also forthe New York Native, which was a
(07:21):
newspaper, and I did restaurantreviews and theater reviews.
But at the same time that thatwas happening, there started to
become rumors in the communitythat this strange gay cancer was
happening and nobody knewanything.
And Ronald Reagan had just beenushered into the White House
along with the religious rightand all of a sudden everything
(07:44):
went from a big party to a bighangover and all of a sudden we
found ourselves at the sides ofour friends at hospital beds, at
clinics.
I was giving eulogies, and thisis not an exaggeration.
(08:05):
I think I was giving eulogies,and this is not an exaggeration.
I think I was giving eulogiesevery quarter for somebody.
So, like you know, four, five,six a year, and so all our
friends, virtually all ourfriends, passed and, wow, we
couldn't fathom what washappening.
(08:26):
So we um mobilized and joinedact up, which at that time was
run by larry kramer of, whofounded the gay men's health
crisis.
And so we did dyans and we didall sorts of stunts with the
stock exchange, and we went towashington and we marched and we
laid down in streets and Idealt with families who were
(08:48):
throwing their kids out of theirhouses, and these kids didn't
have men, didn't have anythinganywhere to go, and we watched
robust, healthy, 20-somethingand 30-something men architects,
lawyers, doctors, designersrobust guys in the prime of
their life shrink to what lookslike sort of what you see in the
(09:10):
sorrow and the pity inconcentration camps.
And so it was a profound.
The 80s were transformative inthat way, and we were doing
social work without knowing wewere doing social work.
You know, we just did it.
We rolled up our sleeves, menand women, and got to work and
(09:30):
by 1989, I decided you know I'mdoing this and you know my
writing wasn't making money andI figured I got it Meaning being
an advocate and being a voicefor being a voice, being an
advocate.
An advocate, you know,advocating for people in
hospitals so that their partnerscould be at their sides.
And the doctors were, some weregreat, some were not um, so we
(09:54):
were doing a lot of social workand I decided I should just go
do this.
And so I went and got acceptedinto hunter college school of
social work on 77th street andthat was a great fit because it
was very community organized.
Um, it wasn't so clinical as itwas grassroots, yeah, in its in
(10:14):
terms of the program that youentered into.
Yeah, the school program interms and, and the school was
very like.
You couldn't say at hunter thatyou wanted to do private
practice and I didn't want to doit at the time.
But you couldn't say at Hunterthat you wanted to do private
practice and I didn't want to doit at the time.
But you couldn't say thatbecause then you would be like I
don't know, looked not so wellupon.
Tushar Saxena (10:33):
So if you're ostracized, really yeah, not
ostracized.
Andrew Chiodo (10:36):
But if you wanted to do community organizing and
you want to do advocacy, it wasvery sort of strike oriented and
very right up my alley, whereasNYU and Fordham were very
clinical and great, but clinical, so graduated in 92 and found
and then got a job at, luckily aplum job at Mount Sinai.
Larry Samuels (11:01):
Before we explore that, I'm curious.
You went into the program and,with everything that you had
gone through up until that point, what was your vision?
Like you knew, you wanted tofocus and do something, I guess
more structured around what youwere already doing, but did you
have a vision for how you weregoing to make an impact on the
(11:23):
other side of school for how youwere going to make an impact on
the other side of school.
Andrew Chiodo (11:27):
It's an interesting question.
I don't know if at the time Ihad a strong vision, but I saw
myself as advocating for themarginalized and the downtrodden
I don't know what the rightword is for people who didn't
(11:50):
have a voice and felt verystrongly and committed to this
population.
And that's where I segued intoSinai, where I worked with
severely and persistentlymentally ill patients who were
underprivileged and very ill,and in that setting.
(12:14):
I learned because it's a medicalmodel setting in the hospital.
We attended rounds, there wasmedication groups, there was a
lot of you know.
We dealt with very sickschizophrenics, bipolar patients
, personality disorderedpatients every day, and so it
was trial by fire in thetrenches.
(12:36):
I didn't know I was going toland there.
When I was in school I had noidea I'd wind up in a psych
program.
But I did and I took to it andI learned a lot and I had a
great mentor who was this woman.
This woman, elaine Hobson washer name and she was all of five
(12:56):
foot two and had hair down toher ankles and was bottomlessly
compassionate and terrifyinglystrong.
And I wanted that.
I wanted to inhabit that world,and so it was a great
experience from 94 to 2000.
Tushar Saxena (13:20):
I want to step back just a little bit and talk
to you about and ask you aboutyour career, getting into it, as
to how your family reacted toit.
And then I mean, maybe doesthat maybe coincide a bit with
when did you come out to yourparents about, about, about
being gay?
And then when you obviously youare treating those, as you say,
(13:43):
who are on the marginalized, onthe, on the, on the outs, not
the, but the fringes of society,so to speak, at that point how
did they accept your careerchoice?
Andrew Chiodo (13:55):
Well, they were really good, actually, about the
writing as well as the as thesocial work.
As the social work, they werehigh school graduates, middle
class people who worked veryhard to put their kids through
school.
They were it's a funny story.
When I came out to my parents,they were confused and befuddled
(14:20):
and the only thing they knewhow to do was go to a priest and
say you know, my son just cameout to me and I don't know what
to do.
And I, they must've gotten agay priest, because the priest
said you know, do you love yourson?
And my mother and father saidof course we love our son.
And they said well then, that'sall you need to know.
Tushar Saxena (14:41):
Yep, that's a great answer.
How old were?
How old yeah?
Andrew Chiodo (14:43):
I was uh 22 okay and you were in school.
Tushar Saxena (14:48):
You were in school at this point.
Andrew Chiodo (14:49):
I was in school at this point I was dating women
, but not dating women.
I had beards, I didn't havebeards.
Um, it was, it was again.
It was all fluid but they insix months they were great, like
they were.
They were great and I was veryfortunate because I watched kids
(15:10):
come out in Brooklyn and theygot the crap beat out of them by
their parents.
Tushar Saxena (15:16):
I mean I can imagine growing up in such an
insular community hardcoreCatholic as you say for them to
be very cool about it is great.
Andrew Chiodo (15:26):
Yeah, I was very lucky and they were very
impressed, if I can use thatword, with my choice of career
and what I was doing, becausethey were FDR Democrats and they
believed in, you know, helpingothers and being there for
people and they were Christian.
You know they others and uh,being there for people, um, and
(15:46):
they were Christian.
You know, they were reallyChristian people in the best
sense of that word.
Um, so they were verysupportive.
Um, I have one older brotherwho was also very supportive, so
fortunately, no complaintsthere and they were very
welcoming of my partners and youknow, and very just very humane
(16:09):
about the whole thing.
So I was very fortunate and thatallowed me, I think, to feel
good about what I was doing.
Larry Shea (16:21):
So you know that's not always the case that a
family supports, especiallyduring that era and where you
come from the background, etc.
So that is a good thing.
So you're at Hunter College forsocial work, and how long a
program is that?
How long are you going to bethere?
So were you thinking aboutprivate practice at that time?
(16:43):
At that time you said youdidn't really say that out loud,
but is it in the back of yourmind that you want to do private
practice, or are you still justall about the community?
And I'm just going to fall inline here for a minute.
Andrew Chiodo (16:55):
So it's a two-year program at Hunter
College and you have two days ofclasswork and three days of
internship and what I was doingwas doing that and then I was
supporting myself through fromfive to 12.
I'd go to school five to 12.
I was word processing, if yourecall that term.
Larry Shea (17:20):
I had a brother.
Larry Samuels (17:23):
I vividly remember that.
Andrew Chiodo (17:26):
I was working with high-end attorneys at law
firms and just you know, sort ofproofreading, word processing,
getting out at midnight, goinghome or sometimes going to the
Odeon for a burger and doing thesame thing for two years.
And so it was in the back of mymind that I wanted to do
(17:47):
private practice.
But I also knew that that wasway down the line, because I
knew I needed to get realtraining, because I really
didn't know what I was doing.
I knew how to, I knew how tocare for people, I knew how to
be empathic, but I didn't havetools in my toolkit yet.
And it was only at Sinai when Ilearned how to do what we call
(18:11):
psychodynamic therapy, cognitivebehavioral therapy, dialectical
behavioral therapy excuse methat.
I started to feel like I couldstart to really treat people in
a real way, and Sinai gave thatto me in spades, like they were
(18:33):
great.
And still in 19,.
In 2000, I was recruited byCabrini Medical Center to run
their psychiatric day treatmentprogram.
Ironically, it's the hospitalwhere my father was born, so I
had a certain affinity for it.
(18:54):
Um, it was called ChristopherColumbus Hospital in the
twenties, um, and so I ran thatprogram and during that time.
That was very interestingbecause 9-11 happened.
And you know I can tell you ananecdote that's funny and not
funny about 9-11, because I wasat that time I was supervising
(19:19):
psychiatry residents, socialwork interns, non-clinical staff
and clinical staff, because Iwas wearing a clinical hat and
an administrative hat.
I was responsible for all theclinicians as well as the audits
from regulatory agencies thatgave us our accreditation.
So I sort of learned how to bea half a lawyer and a full-time
(19:42):
clinician and I was supervisinga social work intern on the
morning of 9-11, at about 8.45,before anything had happened,
and I didn't know.
You know, in those days, right,we only got our news from radio
or TV, and so I'm talking to thesocial work intern and reading
(20:04):
her notes and we're talking andthe policy at Cabrini was if a
patient was going to be absent,they had to call me and they had
to tell me why.
Because I had to assess, youknow, somebody's suicidal, is
somebody not feeling well, blah,blah, blah.
So a patient calls me and says,andrew, I'm not coming into
work today because a plane hashit the World Trade Center.
(20:24):
Says, andrew, I'm not cominginto work today because a plane
has hit the World Trade Centerand I said OK, I'm going to call
you back because I was in themiddle of something.
And I said are you OK?
And she said yeah, I'm OK.
I said OK, fine.
So I turned to the intern and Isay, and I relate what I just
heard, and I say so you know,this is somebody who's not
necessarily medication compliantand sometimes they can lapse
(20:48):
into psychosis and sound like apsychotic episode.
Yeah, the phone rings threeminutes later.
It's my boss and he says get uphere right now we got a problem
, right, yeah, bingo.
So now we have to sort ofcontain 30 psych patients who
(21:11):
are we're all traumatized right,all of us are traumatized and
manage them, manage us, managethe staff and and figure out
what to do, because we're allwaiting for people to come in
and sort of all hands on deck,nobody's coming in to the ER or
anybody, as we know, right, youknow.
(21:31):
So that was kind of a moment atCabrini that was very intense,
a bookend to that which is nicer.
Is that one of the things wedid at Cabrini, wherein we had
very many talented patients?
They did artwork which we hadframed and we turned the whole
(21:53):
center into a gallery oh nice,it was really great and invited
the hospital to come in andpurchase and there was beautiful
artwork and so people purchased.
It was great PR for our programand I think the patients
donated the monies to a 9-11fund.
Tushar Saxena (22:11):
Obviously, as you said, you wore two hats
administrative and clinical.
Was there ever a point in yourcareer where you said I want to
go one way or the other BecauseI mean these?
You know, as a social worker, Ithink and you correct me if I'm
wrong these really are onlykind of the two paths you can go
, and so many go theadministrative route.
What is the biggest difference?
(22:33):
And then, in your case, whatmade you want to go one way or
the other?
Andrew Chiodo (22:49):
Well, I liked both ways, because the clinical
allowed me to be with people andto train and to be in the human
section of it, and theadministrative piece satisfied
my closet OCD, which you knowyou have to dot your I's, cross
your T's, make sure your chartnotes are right, get your
performance improvement numbersup, and so I was very I'm wired
(23:11):
for that and so I really it wasa welcome relief for me to step
away from clinical stuff andfocus in on charts.
I know that sounds really dry.
That's okay, it's you.
It was really dry.
Larry Samuels (23:23):
That's okay, it's you.
I'm the exact opposite.
Detail does not exist in myuniverse.
Andrew Chiodo (23:34):
So it was a way I I guess it was a way I coped,
but I felt I could master it,like I could get my arms around
it.
You can't always get your armsaround people and their
pathology, but you could arounda chart note and we always got
like the top not to toot my ownhorn, but we always got the top
(23:58):
accreditation.
We always came in with flyingcolors.
My staff was always great andthey were wonderful.
So it was a really good toanswer the question a really
good combination that workedboth from a human place and a I
don't know paperwork place andkept me sane a little bit.
But it meant going in onweekends and looking at charts
(24:22):
and you know it was a lot ofwork.
Tushar Saxena (24:24):
All right, so what is the biggest difference,
then, between an administrativesocial worker and a clinical
social worker, outside of thepaperwork portion of it?
Andrew Chiodo (24:37):
So that's a good question, because in the
hospital system, especially atNorth General, they wanted
numbers.
They wanted us to get patientsin.
They would double book patients.
I didn't agree with this, but Idid it.
They would double book patients.
They were all about getting the, getting the funds and the
(24:58):
clinic.
I had to really balance theclinicians because the
clinicians were like, why arethey double booking us?
And inevitably when you doublebook somebody, the truth is only
one person shows you right.
You book one person, you don'tget a client, you don't get
money and so you don't makeincome, you don't make revenue
that way.
And so that's the biggestdifference was trying to bridge
(25:23):
the understanding that we neededto get financing and revenue
and provide good clinical careand those things can be at odds
with each other.
And that was hard becausesometimes two people would show
up and somebody would have towait.
The clinician would be stressedWere they doing their best work
(25:45):
, knowing they had somebodyright outside waiting to come in
.
It was hard.
That would be the biggestdifference and hospitals have to
do that and for better or worseand I'm not proud of this, but
Cabrini and North General bothand St Vincent's all went under
no longer hospitals in New YorkCity and they went under because
(26:08):
they were not administrativelymanaged well.
Larry Samuels (26:11):
So, Andrew, can you tell us when you made the
decision that you were ready togo out on your own, so to speak,
and start your own practice?
And start your own practice.
Andrew Chiodo (26:23):
Sure, it was that was 08, 18 years after having
worked in three hospitals, thatI felt confident enough to pull
the plug on institutions andplug in the plug on private
therapy.
Larry Samuels (26:43):
And how do you do that?
Do you hang a shingle?
Do you place an ad?
How do you get started?
Andrew Chiodo (26:48):
Well, it helped me that my boss quit.
My boss at North General quitand I didn't want to work for
anybody else, so I thought I'mout and I was already starting a
private practice part-time inthe evenings.
And then I used my network fromSinai Cabrini, north General.
(27:10):
I had a lot of psychiatristfriends, a lot of social worker
friends, and I used that word ofmouth and my network to build a
practice which took me a goodseven years.
Before I was at 45 patients aweek and now I'm at about 35,
(27:33):
and that's a good number for me.
Larry Shea (27:35):
So this question kind of goes without saying that
everybody, this field isn't foreverybody, right?
It takes a very, I think,special person to be a therapist
.
But I have to ask this question, jokingly but not really
jokingly how sick do you get oflistening to people's problems
all day long?
Because that's not foreverybody, right?
(27:56):
It takes, like you said, somereal empathy and some real care
and some real understanding to,day after day, you have your own
problems.
You're dealing with somebodyelse's, that's that's a lot.
Andrew Chiodo (28:06):
Yeah, you know, I think in the beginning it's
really, really, really hardbecause you're not, it's an
untrained muscle.
So if you think of it likegoing to the gym and working a
certain muscle that getsstronger and stronger and
stronger over the years, I cansit down now, now and um, and
(28:31):
it's the rare occasion that Iget a really boring patient,
although I've had them and uhwhat qualifies as a boring
question.
Larry Shea (28:44):
Problems are rudimentary.
Andrew Chiodo (28:45):
Good question.
People who are I have to do, Ihave to be delicate here, people
who are repetitive and sort ofbring in the same problem every
week, every week, every week,without really listening, and
you have to know when tointervene, really listen, and
(29:07):
you have to know when tointervene so I can, someone can
come into the office at a firstmeeting and usually nowadays I
can see what the path is forthem.
But I'm not, I'm not going tosay that I have to wait and I
have to be patient and I have toknow when to when are they?
ready to hear this?
You know, know, when are theyready to hear that they're
acting like their mother, whothey complained to me about for
(29:28):
the last six months?
I'd assume that's what, to methat that seems like the essence
of the boring patient you know,and so it just requires and I
think this is where karate andmeditation helped me be very
patient.
It's the work, it's likeanything.
(29:49):
It's like you go to work andyou're a lawyer.
There are things about doing,being a lawyer that are not so
interesting, but you have to dothem and you learn how to do
them.
And how does one?
How does a therapist separatehis problems right?
Because I've gone throughparental deaths, deaths of
(30:09):
friends, my own sort of personalchallenges.
How do I do that while I'msitting in front of somebody
who's also, you know, telling metheir stuff, you know telling
(30:32):
me their stuff.
In a way, it's kind of easierto listen to somebody else and
shelve your own problems andthen come back to them later in
the day.
It really does prevent you fromruminating about your own
worries because you have to payattention, and so that was
always harder in the first halfof my career and much less hard
(30:53):
in the second half.
Larry Samuels (30:55):
You know I'm wondering about the first part
of your career as a youngtherapist.
How do you get comfortable,meaning I imagine there's a lot
of pressure on you to learn yourcraft.
I mean, if you screw up, I meanI can't imagine what those
consequences could potentiallybe Like.
(31:16):
How do you get comfortable andwhat are those emotions early on
?
Andrew Chiodo (31:23):
And what are those emotions early on?
You have to be able to toleratea lot, a lot, a lot of
discomfort in the work.
It's essential you can't takethings personally and you have
to be okay with screwing up andyou have to own it.
And I've screwed up and I'vesaid to patients I'm sorry, that
(31:52):
was the wrong thing to say, soI apologize.
And if you do that, you're homefree, because patients always
know it's my experience at least, and especially with very sick
patients they always know whenyou're lying or not telling them
.
They always know.
Tushar Saxena (32:01):
Obviously, your clients unburden themselves with
problems to you and you workthrough it.
That's got to be a lot for anytherapist, for you, for anybody
else.
So who do you speak to?
Do therapists need therapists?
Andrew Chiodo (32:17):
In the beginning absolutely In the beginning I
was seeing you have a number ofdifferent things.
A I was blessed with a verygood supervisor who I met weekly
.
B we had group supervision.
C I had an outside group.
I would meet with a therapistto talk about cases um, and I
(32:38):
had my own um.
I would journal or keep a trackrecord of my notes.
But you have to have peoplearound to talk to.
You can't do this work inisolation.
It's a mistake.
You have to be able to talkabout what's being evoked in you
(33:01):
by clients.
Larry Shea (33:08):
Because clients evoke a lot of feelings.
How should a patient go aboutchoosing a therapist that will
work for?
Andrew Chiodo (33:11):
them a.
They should interview at leastthree.
First and foremost, you're aconsumer.
You're looking for a therapist.
You should interview people.
Um, you should assess theenergy in the room itself and
feel like it's this personreally listening to me.
(33:32):
They do.
Are they getting me?
Um, I had a patient recentlycome in and said to me my wife
thinks I should be in therapy.
I said, all right, why?
And he said, well, I haveproblems communicating.
And after I went to AI to lookfor interventions, I thought I'd
(33:57):
come to you, wow.
And I said, well, how did AIhelp?
And they said, well, wow.
And uh, I said, well, how didai help?
And they said, well, you knowai, and we can segue into this
for a second.
Ai was very pragmatic andcognitive, behaviorally oriented
.
I said so, why are you here?
He said, well, I think I need ahuman touch.
I said, okay, we can work withthat.
(34:18):
You know?
Uh, he said I've interviewedthree other people.
And uh, he said I think I'mgoing to pick you.
I said, well, lucky me.
Larry Samuels (34:29):
You over AI, you over the machine.
Andrew Chiodo (34:32):
I want to check with AI once more and so we're
working together and he's agreat guy.
But like that's how you do itright, like you have your
consumer, you shouldn't just buyinto anybody, because there are
a lot of coops out there allright.
Tushar Saxena (34:48):
So I I want to kind of touch on this word that
you've used a lot about workingtogether, right?
Um, obviously, as a therapist,your idea is to listen to your
patient and then, uh, you know,give them feedback.
How much of how much of thework is on the onus of the
patient themselves to workthrough their problem?
(35:08):
What does that mean for apatient to have to work on their
issues?
Andrew Chiodo (35:13):
So it's always a collaboration between therapist
and patient, because the patientdoes it with the assistance of
the therapist, but it isultimately the patient's will
and motivation to change that isessential for a successful
outcome.
You use will and motivation.
(35:51):
Is there any notion, if I cansay, like I do, hold people's
feet to the fire about what theysay they're going to do and
what they don't do?
And what they don't do, youknow, for people with real
mental illness now I'm nottalking about, like I had a
fight with my girlfriend or myboss yelled at me and I'm, you
know, I can't deal with itPeople with real, serious mental
(36:14):
illness I'll often say, listen,this isn't your fault, but it's
your responsibility, it's notyour fault that you have bipolar
disorder, that you have severeclinical depression, but it is
your responsibility to manage it.
Larry Samuels (36:33):
I'm curious and this is where I was going to
head next how has your practice,how has your approach changed?
I mean, you've been at this forrespectfully, for a while.
You're a very experienced guyand you've seen the world flip
upside down in the time thatyou've been practicing.
(36:54):
With the introduction, in someways, of the internet and then
social media and mobile phonesand everything else, how has
that impacted how you treatpatients and your day-to-day?
Andrew Chiodo (37:06):
It has impacted it greatly, Like young men and
women in their 20s and 30s whoare trying to date and are using
dating apps.
When they talk to me about howthey use dating apps, it sounds
like they're shopping for patiofurniture Wow like they're
(37:30):
shopping for patio furniture.
Wow, oh, harvard, no, I don'twant, I don't want the harvard.
No, no, no.
Columbia, no, you know, I want,I want state schools.
I'm like what?
Like it's.
It's surreal, it's like it's a,it's a whole new, and this is
where I sound older.
It is a whole new and this iswhere I sound older.
It is a whole new field ofpathology, because now you have
parents who want to check it.
(37:52):
You know parents who wereraised, who were in their 30s,
raised with phones.
They want to check out too.
So now they're not parenting inthe way they ought to be
parenting and they're givingtheir kids screens to babysit
them.
And so now the whole householdis dysregulated, because not
(38:13):
only are people gettingdifferent information, but
they're also they're livingvirtually versus living
presently, presently.
Tushar Saxena (38:23):
Thank you yeah yeah, they're living virtually.
Andrew Chiodo (38:26):
That's a big change one that is a, has been
now has been a little dauntingfor me because I have a a very
modest I think healthyrelationship to the phone.
It's a, it's an instrument tobe used for for you know, for
(38:50):
practical reasons for me, but Idon't engage so much in social
media.
But I truly feel for the kidsgrowing up that this is going to
be, that this is the tip of theepidemic right now.
But we're headed into somethingvery isolationist where kids
(39:16):
are in their bedroom with thedoor closed doing God knows what
on their phone.
Larry Shea (39:22):
Let's try something fun doing God knows what on
their phone.
Let's try something fun.
I was trying to think of somegood movies that had therapists
in them, like a Dr Melfi withthe Sopranos or maybe you see
yourself in one of these peopleor Richard Dreyfuss in what
About Bob right, one of myfavorites or Stutz, but bigger
than that.
There's a lot of documentariesand things on HBO, things of
(39:44):
that nature that are likeliterally open sessions, like in
treatment and couples therapy,and you see it so open now on TV
and in entertainment.
I'm wondering if there's anybenefit to that.
Could you watch something likethat and take something from it?
Oh, I do a little bit of that.
Or do you look at it and saythis is opening a can of worms?
(40:06):
That?
Andrew Chiodo (40:06):
I'm not sure should be open.
I think it's a mixed bag.
I'll tell you, in the 90s weused the Sopranos I taught
family therapy vis-a-vis theSopranos, because it was so
brilliantly written, so spot onand so hilarious, and as an
Italian American, I could relateto it in tenfold, and so it was
(40:30):
hilarious and smart.
That said, I've watchedShrinking with Harrison Ford.
That's great, adorable andcompletely unrealistic.
And there's a couples's therapyshow I'm not sure the name of
it where they right, I thinkmight even be called couple's
(40:51):
therapy, I think for people whoare thinking about therapy as a
possibility.
I don't think they can do.
You know it's okay.
I think they can do it.
It can be helpful.
I've yet to see, apart maybefrom dr malfi, um, a truly maybe
(41:11):
gabriel burn in in treatment.
He was pretty good, he waspretty good.
Um, I have to give barbarastreisand a thumbs down for the
Prince of Tides.
Love her voice, not the case,and I never saw what About Bob,
so I can't.
Larry Samuels (41:32):
Oh, I love that.
Tushar Saxena (41:33):
Gotta see that movie you gotta see that movie
you gotta see that.
Larry Shea (41:38):
Also interesting Stutz with Jonah Hill.
Jonah Hill has gone through alot of mental issues and he put
his whole process on displaywith this therapist in like an
hour and a half documentary.
I mean, what do you think aboutsomething like that?
I mean, I got a lot out of itbut I haven't seen it and I will
see it now after thisconversation.
Andrew Chiodo (41:58):
The movie that I saw most recently, while it
didn't have a psychiatrist in itbut was loaded with psychiatric
and psychological overtones,was a movie called All of Us
Strangers with the Irish actorthey're both Irish Andrew Scott
(42:18):
and Paul Mescal.
Scott and Paul Mescal, if youhave an opportunity.
It's a beautiful rendering of aman who tries to reckon with
his past and goes back in timeand has imaginary conversations
with his parents.
That, if you're not a mess,after that 90 minutes there's
(42:42):
something wrong with you Right.
Seek therapy right.
Tushar Saxena (42:48):
What about a film like Silver Linings Playbook?
I don't want to have you reviewevery movie that's involving
therapy or therapy.
Andrew Chiodo (42:56):
Bradley Cooper did a great job of portraying a
bipolar patient.
He was terrific.
Larry Samuels (43:01):
I fell asleep in it twice.
Really, I never got through it.
I saw it once in the theater.
Tushar Saxena (43:07):
That's a good movie.
Larry Shea (43:07):
I like to sleep.
I loved it.
Andrew Chiodo (43:10):
It's kind of my go-to feel-good movie when I'm a
little down, yeah.
You know I thought it was okay,but that's just a personal
opinion.
Streisand also did a filmcalled Nuts.
Just a personal opinion.
Um, streisand also did a filmcalled nuts, which was also
terrible.
She should strike out on thatfront.
But I guess the earliest onewas like now I'm dating myself.
(43:34):
One flew over the cuckoo's nestoh well classical classics
absolutely, of course nicholson,which was pretty, pretty good.
Larry Shea (43:42):
Of course.
Tushar Saxena (43:42):
Of course, of course.
Andrew Chiodo (43:44):
Of course, of course, of course, of course, of
course, of course, of course,of course, of course, of course,
of course, of course, of course, of course, of course, of
course, of course, of course, ofcourse, of course, of course,
of course, of course.
Larry Samuels (43:58):
So, andrew, as we move towards the end, we always
ask our guests for advice.
So somebody who would like tofollow in your footsteps and
become a therapist.
What advice do you have forthem as they get started on this
career path?
Andrew Chiodo (44:19):
You know why they're doing it, this career
path, you know why they're doingit.
You often hear people say youknow I went into therapy to.
They won't say it, but you cansurmise that people go into
therapy to fix their ownproblems.
That's not a reason to be atherapist.
You should know oneself and youshould know why you want to do
(44:41):
this.
You should know yourself in away.
Well in the old days, in thenew days, I would just say you
should have a good course oftreatment yourself before you
entertain the idea of becoming atherapist.
That's great advice.
You know, you should reallyunderstand why you want to do
(45:02):
this, because somebody's puttingtheir mental health in your
hands.
Larry Samuels (45:06):
You better really take it seriously, andrew.
This has really been wonderful.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
So that was Andrew Chiodo, withan incredibly powerful story
about purpose and really findingyour purpose.
Larry Shea, what are yourtakeaways?
Larry Shea (45:28):
Yeah, this is not a profession for the faint of
heart.
I would say you really have toenjoy helping people and really
love to dig into the nittygritty of what makes people tick
.
You know we all have problems.
We all need people like this towork out those problems.
But it takes a special person,I think, to really dig into it
(45:49):
and so you could feel that lovewhen he's talking about his
profession.
You know I took so much out ofit.
You know, know why you're doingit, know oneself and have a
good course of treatment foryourself.
You know T, I think you askeddo therapists need therapists?
You know like it's a validthing.
You know you could really tellhow his younger life kind of
(46:10):
shaped his career journey.
You know, and he talked aboutit as well.
He said you know he appreciatesthat he found a career path
that fit who he was and that'ssomething to remember.
With whatever career pathyou're taking, you know, make
sure that it fits yourpersonality, make sure it fits
who you are.
And there was also aninteresting thing that he talked
about with he needed thedetail-oriented work of the
(46:33):
administrative side because itkind of handled his closet OCD
which I found interesting.
And then the clinical stuffallowed him to be with people
and train, because you couldtell what by the way he talks.
He needs people.
He's a people person, so I tookso much out of this.
Tushar Saxena (46:48):
It was a really insightful discussion you know,
the one thing I took a fewthings I took away from this is
that my, my mother, uh, is aretired psychologist and yes, uh
, absolutely uh.
The one thing he said much,much went to today going to this
profession with your eyes open.
But I think the other part ofthat was understand what it is.
(47:09):
You want to get out of thisprofession as well.
Right, you're not going to gointo it with an idea that I'm
going to heal myself through mypatients.
That's not going to happen andthat's not your job either.
Right, as you said, shay, isthat this is not a job for
everyone.
Not everyone should be doingthis.
But I think the one thing thatI really took away from this was
you know, when everyone goes tothe doctor at some point in
(47:30):
their life, right, whether it beyou know, your uh, your your
internist, your uh, your yourorthopedist or whatever.
But in a lot of cases, you know, it's a kind of a clumsy, it's
kind of a clumsy example, butit's like going to a mechanic.
You say, hey, when I raise myarm like this, this hurts, or
I'm coughing and have thisproblem and can you fix it?
(47:53):
Now, for the most part, thosedoctors say, okay, take this
pill or we have to do this X-rayand they can find a problem.
That's not always the case inthis profession.
You are responsible for puttingin a lot of the work that is
going to make you well and itcould take a long time, right,
yeah, we can go to physicaltherapy and work out.
You know aches and pains, butfor the most part, we know
(48:16):
what's going to happen at theend of that journey.
This is not always the case.
We hope that we find areasonable end to whatever the
problem is, but the reality isthat you know it is a real
process and you are responsiblefor making yourself well, as
well as the person who istreating you.
That was a really, reallytelling statement and you know,
(48:37):
it gave me greater insight intowhat my own mother did for so
many years, and that's what Ireally took away from speaking.
Speaking with andrew.
He's a great guy and heobviously loves his patients and
you know what he goes out ofhis way to try and make his
patients better, which is a keyfor any for any health caregiver
absolutely, and I I think forme, what what I'll walk away
(49:01):
with aside from all of that isis kind of how he wound up where
he is.
Larry Samuels (49:20):
You know, he's somebody who spent a lot of time
exploring his own world and hisowns and the impact that that
had upon him.
To find a way to turn all ofthat around and to focus his
passions and to really make adifference and to create a life
around his love for others madea huge impact upon me and I'm so
(49:42):
glad that we had theopportunity to talk to Andrew
today.
I took away so much from thatconversation.
Andrew, thank you so much forjoining us today.
For anybody out there who'dlike to learn more about Andrew,
you can visit his website atandrewciottocom.
Once again, he is a licensedclinical social worker and
therapist based here in New YorkCity.
(50:04):
We also thank you for joiningus.
If this episode made you thinkof someone who could be a great
guest, please send us a notethrough the contact page of our
website at norongchoicescom.
While you're there, pleasecheck out our blog for a deeper
look into each of our guests andepisodes.
As mentioned at the start.
Don't forget to like and followus on your favorite podcast
(50:25):
platform and to connect with uson social media, you can find us
on LinkedIn, Instagram,Facebook, YouTube, TikTok and X.
Your support helps us to keepbringing these incredible
stories to life.
On behalf of Larry Shea, TusharSaxena and me, Larry Samuels,
thank you again for joining us.
We'll be back next week withanother inspiring episode of no
(50:49):
Wrong Choices.
Some struggles shape us, others define our
purpose.
Those are the themes we explorein this episode of no Wrong
Choices, featuring the licensedclinical social worker and
therapist, andrew Chiodo.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
I'm Larry Samuel, soon to bejoined by my collaborators
Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea.
(00:23):
Before we kick off, please besure to support us by liking,
following or subscribing to theshow, wherever you get your
podcasts.
Now let's get started, andrew.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Andrew Chiodo (00:35):
Pleasure, larry.
It's a delight to be here withyou and I'm happy to share the
stories and the arc of thecareer.
Larry Samuels (00:43):
Why don't you set the stage for us and just tell
us you know, in your own words,who is Andrew Chiodo and what do
you do?
Andrew Chiodo (00:51):
So, as of today and since 08, 2008, I'm a
psychotherapist, licensedclinical social worker in
private practice in the FlatironDistrict, wherein I treat
individuals, couples, familiesand adolescents for a variety of
(01:12):
psychiatric disorders, rangingfrom depression and anxiety to
ADHD, bulimia, gamblingaddictions and some alcohol and
drug addictions.
Um, that's been an outgrowth ofmany years of being in
(01:34):
hospitals and what preceded that, which got me into the work, is
a is a whole other story, um,which we can get to, but that's
been the primary practice for 17years privately.
Tushar Saxena (01:51):
Got it All right, so let's begin at the beginning
.
You know, were you always a kidwho wanted to help people?
Did you feel that you werebuilt to do do?
Were you built to be acaretaker, so to speak?
Andrew Chiodo (02:21):
Well, I grew up in a sliver of Brooklyn called
Diker Heights, which was, forbetter or worse in those days in
the late 60s, early 70s, veryprotected by the mafia and very
intense, and so it was veryCatholic.
(02:42):
We went to church every Sunday.
It was very Catholic, we wentto church every Sunday, and in
my household the drill was therewas Jesus Christ there was the
Pope and there was Frank Sinatra, Not necessarily in that order.
That was it.
Tushar Saxena (03:03):
Like you know, you genuflected at.
Andrew Chiodo (03:04):
Francis, albert and you were good.
So, but from a very early age Iwould say six or seven I
understood that I was different,and by that I mean I understood
that I had an attraction to men, but I couldn't, you know, it's
not something you verbalize,it's unconscious.
And so, as a result of that,you one, I started to sort of
(03:24):
pull back because I understoodit was dangerous.
I don't know how I understoodit, but I did, and I calibrated
my movements, my behavior, tothe environment, and so I was
very sensitive.
I was a really sensitive kid,but perceptive, and understood
that if I make a wrong move orif I'm to something, I could get
(03:48):
my ass kicked.
And that happened on occasion,as it did to many other kids in
the neighborhood.
And so I understood how tonavigate a neighborhood that was
very complicated and very kindof intense, because our parents
were raised by immigrants andthey had one foot in the old
(04:13):
world and one foot in the newworld.
They wanted us to assimilate,and so going to Catholic school
from grades one through eightwas intense and hard, and I
understood that.
When it came time to go to highschool, my parents said do you
want to go to Catholic schooland I said no.
So they put me in New UtrechtHigh School in Bensonhurst,
(04:36):
brooklyn, where I quicklygravitated to the school's
literary magazine and became theeditor and started to dabble
with writing and words.
And I was a kid who was alwayshad his head in a book or his
face in a book, or I'd go to thebleaker street cinema in those
days and watch foreign movies.
And I wanted to meet guys at 15or 16.
(04:59):
And I knew it wasn't going tohappen in Bay Ridge, brooklyn or
Diker Heights, and so Iventured in.
Beginning sophomore, junioryear of high school, I was in
the city every weekend, I was atmuseums and I wound up working
(05:20):
in Red Hook in those days, whichwas very rough, and at a paper
company, and met a fellow ofmine, a friend, and he was about
six years older.
And soon enough in my lateadolescence, like 16, 17, 18, I
found myself in the.
You know it was post stonewall,it was hedonistic, it was fluid
(05:40):
, and I found myself atunderground gay discos and
studio 54.
And I was doing all sorts ofstuff that was I shouldn't have
been doing, but I did it and itwas an education and it was a
lot of fun.
Larry Shea (05:56):
I want to ask you just real quick I need to
interject because that's such ahuge part of the layers of the
onion that are you basically,how did that affect you, kind of
hiding that aspect of your lifefor your entire childhood and
only letting it out in certainareas?
I mean that must have had aprofound effect on you in terms
of how you navigated the world.
Andrew Chiodo (06:17):
I learned how to compartmentalize very quickly
and to show parts of myself tosome people and not to others,
how to read a room very quickly,how to deflect with humor, how
to please people so that theywould not get too close to me,
so that they would know.
(06:37):
Now that was there.
When I got to New York andstarted to really develop a
community, I busted out and was,you know, ready, and so I met
my first partner in 1983.
And we were fortunate to have.
We had a great setup on PerryStreet in the village and we had
(07:01):
a floor through brownstone andit was a good relationship and
we we both were writers and Istarted writing fiction.
Um, I wrote for a literarymagazine called Christopher
Street, which at that time wasthe literary magazine of the day
for gay people, and also forthe New York Native, which was a
(07:21):
newspaper, and I did restaurantreviews and theater reviews.
But at the same time that thatwas happening, there started to
become rumors in the communitythat this strange gay cancer was
happening and nobody knewanything.
And Ronald Reagan had just beenushered into the White House
along with the religious rightand all of a sudden everything
(07:44):
went from a big party to a bighangover and all of a sudden we
found ourselves at the sides ofour friends at hospital beds, at
clinics.
I was giving eulogies, and thisis not an exaggeration.
(08:05):
I think I was giving eulogies,and this is not an exaggeration.
I think I was giving eulogiesevery quarter for somebody.
So, like you know, four, five,six a year, and so all our
friends, virtually all ourfriends, passed and, wow, we
couldn't fathom what washappening.
(08:26):
So we um mobilized and joinedact up, which at that time was
run by larry kramer of, whofounded the gay men's health
crisis.
And so we did dyans and we didall sorts of stunts with the
stock exchange, and we went towashington and we marched and we
laid down in streets and Idealt with families who were
(08:48):
throwing their kids out of theirhouses, and these kids didn't
have men, didn't have anythinganywhere to go, and we watched
robust, healthy, 20-somethingand 30-something men architects,
lawyers, doctors, designersrobust guys in the prime of
their life shrink to what lookslike sort of what you see in the
(09:10):
sorrow and the pity inconcentration camps.
And so it was a profound.
The 80s were transformative inthat way, and we were doing
social work without knowing wewere doing social work.
You know, we just did it.
We rolled up our sleeves, menand women, and got to work and
(09:30):
by 1989, I decided you know I'mdoing this and you know my
writing wasn't making money andI figured I got it Meaning being
an advocate and being a voicefor being a voice, being an
advocate.
An advocate, you know,advocating for people in
hospitals so that their partnerscould be at their sides.
And the doctors were, some weregreat, some were not um, so we
(09:54):
were doing a lot of social workand I decided I should just go
do this.
And so I went and got acceptedinto hunter college school of
social work on 77th street andthat was a great fit because it
was very community organized.
Um, it wasn't so clinical as itwas grassroots, yeah, in its in
(10:14):
terms of the program that youentered into.
Yeah, the school program interms and, and the school was
very like.
You couldn't say at hunter thatyou wanted to do private
practice and I didn't want to doit at the time.
But you couldn't say at Hunterthat you wanted to do private
practice and I didn't want to doit at the time.
But you couldn't say thatbecause then you would be like I
don't know, looked not so wellupon.
Tushar Saxena (10:33):
So if you're ostracized, really yeah, not
ostracized.
Andrew Chiodo (10:36):
But if you wanted to do community organizing and
you want to do advocacy, it wasvery sort of strike oriented and
very right up my alley, whereasNYU and Fordham were very
clinical and great, but clinical, so graduated in 92 and found
and then got a job at, luckily aplum job at Mount Sinai.
Larry Samuels (11:01):
Before we explore that, I'm curious.
You went into the program and,with everything that you had
gone through up until that point, what was your vision?
Like you knew, you wanted tofocus and do something, I guess
more structured around what youwere already doing, but did you
have a vision for how you weregoing to make an impact on the
(11:23):
other side of school for how youwere going to make an impact on
the other side of school.
Andrew Chiodo (11:27):
It's an interesting question.
I don't know if at the time Ihad a strong vision, but I saw
myself as advocating for themarginalized and the downtrodden
I don't know what the rightword is for people who didn't
(11:50):
have a voice and felt verystrongly and committed to this
population.
And that's where I segued intoSinai, where I worked with
severely and persistentlymentally ill patients who were
underprivileged and very ill,and in that setting.
(12:14):
I learned because it's a medicalmodel setting in the hospital.
We attended rounds, there wasmedication groups, there was a
lot of you know.
We dealt with very sickschizophrenics, bipolar patients
, personality disorderedpatients every day, and so it
was trial by fire in thetrenches.
(12:36):
I didn't know I was going toland there.
When I was in school I had noidea I'd wind up in a psych
program.
But I did and I took to it andI learned a lot and I had a
great mentor who was this woman.
This woman, elaine Hobson washer name and she was all of five
(12:56):
foot two and had hair down toher ankles and was bottomlessly
compassionate and terrifyinglystrong.
And I wanted that.
I wanted to inhabit that world,and so it was a great
experience from 94 to 2000.
Tushar Saxena (13:20):
I want to step back just a little bit and talk
to you about and ask you aboutyour career, getting into it, as
to how your family reacted toit.
And then I mean, maybe doesthat maybe coincide a bit with
when did you come out to yourparents about, about, about
being gay?
And then when you obviously youare treating those, as you say,
(13:43):
who are on the marginalized, onthe, on the, on the outs, not
the, but the fringes of society,so to speak, at that point how
did they accept your careerchoice?
Andrew Chiodo (13:55):
Well, they were really good, actually, about the
writing as well as the as thesocial work.
As the social work, they werehigh school graduates, middle
class people who worked veryhard to put their kids through
school.
They were it's a funny story.
When I came out to my parents,they were confused and befuddled
(14:20):
and the only thing they knewhow to do was go to a priest and
say you know, my son just cameout to me and I don't know what
to do.
And I, they must've gotten agay priest, because the priest
said you know, do you love yourson?
And my mother and father saidof course we love our son.
And they said well then, that'sall you need to know.
Tushar Saxena (14:41):
Yep, that's a great answer.
How old were?
How old yeah?
Andrew Chiodo (14:43):
I was uh 22 okay and you were in school.
Tushar Saxena (14:48):
You were in school at this point.
Andrew Chiodo (14:49):
I was in school at this point I was dating women
, but not dating women.
I had beards, I didn't havebeards.
Um, it was, it was again.
It was all fluid but they insix months they were great, like
they were.
They were great and I was veryfortunate because I watched kids
(15:10):
come out in Brooklyn and theygot the crap beat out of them by
their parents.
Tushar Saxena (15:16):
I mean I can imagine growing up in such an
insular community hardcoreCatholic as you say for them to
be very cool about it is great.
Andrew Chiodo (15:26):
Yeah, I was very lucky and they were very
impressed, if I can use thatword, with my choice of career
and what I was doing, becausethey were FDR Democrats and they
believed in, you know, helpingothers and being there for
people and they were Christian.
You know they others and uh,being there for people, um, and
(15:46):
they were Christian.
You know, they were reallyChristian people in the best
sense of that word.
Um, so they were verysupportive.
Um, I have one older brotherwho was also very supportive, so
fortunately, no complaintsthere and they were very
welcoming of my partners and youknow, and very just very humane
(16:09):
about the whole thing.
So I was very fortunate and thatallowed me, I think, to feel
good about what I was doing.
Larry Shea (16:21):
So you know that's not always the case that a
family supports, especiallyduring that era and where you
come from the background, etc.
So that is a good thing.
So you're at Hunter College forsocial work, and how long a
program is that?
How long are you going to bethere?
So were you thinking aboutprivate practice at that time?
(16:43):
At that time you said youdidn't really say that out loud,
but is it in the back of yourmind that you want to do private
practice, or are you still justall about the community?
And I'm just going to fall inline here for a minute.
Andrew Chiodo (16:55):
So it's a two-year program at Hunter
College and you have two days ofclasswork and three days of
internship and what I was doingwas doing that and then I was
supporting myself through fromfive to 12.
I'd go to school five to 12.
I was word processing, if yourecall that term.
Larry Shea (17:20):
I had a brother.
Larry Samuels (17:23):
I vividly remember that.
Andrew Chiodo (17:26):
I was working with high-end attorneys at law
firms and just you know, sort ofproofreading, word processing,
getting out at midnight, goinghome or sometimes going to the
Odeon for a burger and doing thesame thing for two years.
And so it was in the back of mymind that I wanted to do
(17:47):
private practice.
But I also knew that that wasway down the line, because I
knew I needed to get realtraining, because I really
didn't know what I was doing.
I knew how to, I knew how tocare for people, I knew how to
be empathic, but I didn't havetools in my toolkit yet.
And it was only at Sinai when Ilearned how to do what we call
(18:11):
psychodynamic therapy, cognitivebehavioral therapy, dialectical
behavioral therapy excuse methat.
I started to feel like I couldstart to really treat people in
a real way, and Sinai gave thatto me in spades, like they were
(18:33):
great.
And still in 19,.
In 2000, I was recruited byCabrini Medical Center to run
their psychiatric day treatmentprogram.
Ironically, it's the hospitalwhere my father was born, so I
had a certain affinity for it.
(18:54):
Um, it was called ChristopherColumbus Hospital in the
twenties, um, and so I ran thatprogram and during that time.
That was very interestingbecause 9-11 happened.
And you know I can tell you ananecdote that's funny and not
funny about 9-11, because I wasat that time I was supervising
(19:19):
psychiatry residents, socialwork interns, non-clinical staff
and clinical staff, because Iwas wearing a clinical hat and
an administrative hat.
I was responsible for all theclinicians as well as the audits
from regulatory agencies thatgave us our accreditation.
So I sort of learned how to bea half a lawyer and a full-time
(19:42):
clinician and I was supervisinga social work intern on the
morning of 9-11, at about 8.45,before anything had happened,
and I didn't know.
You know, in those days, right,we only got our news from radio
or TV, and so I'm talking to thesocial work intern and reading
(20:04):
her notes and we're talking andthe policy at Cabrini was if a
patient was going to be absent,they had to call me and they had
to tell me why.
Because I had to assess, youknow, somebody's suicidal, is
somebody not feeling well, blah,blah, blah.
So a patient calls me and says,andrew, I'm not coming into
work today because a plane hashit the World Trade Center.
(20:24):
Says, andrew, I'm not cominginto work today because a plane
has hit the World Trade Centerand I said OK, I'm going to call
you back because I was in themiddle of something.
And I said are you OK?
And she said yeah, I'm OK.
I said OK, fine.
So I turned to the intern and Isay, and I relate what I just
heard, and I say so you know,this is somebody who's not
necessarily medication compliantand sometimes they can lapse
(20:48):
into psychosis and sound like apsychotic episode.
Yeah, the phone rings threeminutes later.
It's my boss and he says get uphere right now we got a problem
, right, yeah, bingo.
So now we have to sort ofcontain 30 psych patients who
(21:11):
are we're all traumatized right,all of us are traumatized and
manage them, manage us, managethe staff and and figure out
what to do, because we're allwaiting for people to come in
and sort of all hands on deck,nobody's coming in to the ER or
anybody, as we know, right, youknow.
(21:31):
So that was kind of a moment atCabrini that was very intense,
a bookend to that which is nicer.
Is that one of the things wedid at Cabrini, wherein we had
very many talented patients?
They did artwork which we hadframed and we turned the whole
(21:53):
center into a gallery oh nice,it was really great and invited
the hospital to come in andpurchase and there was beautiful
artwork and so people purchased.
It was great PR for our programand I think the patients
donated the monies to a 9-11fund.
Tushar Saxena (22:11):
Obviously, as you said, you wore two hats
administrative and clinical.
Was there ever a point in yourcareer where you said I want to
go one way or the other BecauseI mean these?
You know, as a social worker, Ithink and you correct me if I'm
wrong these really are onlykind of the two paths you can go
, and so many go theadministrative route.
What is the biggest difference?
(22:33):
And then, in your case, whatmade you want to go one way or
the other?
Andrew Chiodo (22:49):
Well, I liked both ways, because the clinical
allowed me to be with people andto train and to be in the human
section of it, and theadministrative piece satisfied
my closet OCD, which you knowyou have to dot your I's, cross
your T's, make sure your chartnotes are right, get your
performance improvement numbersup, and so I was very I'm wired
(23:11):
for that and so I really it wasa welcome relief for me to step
away from clinical stuff andfocus in on charts.
I know that sounds really dry.
That's okay, it's you.
It was really dry.
Larry Samuels (23:23):
That's okay, it's you.
I'm the exact opposite.
Detail does not exist in myuniverse.
Andrew Chiodo (23:34):
So it was a way I I guess it was a way I coped,
but I felt I could master it,like I could get my arms around
it.
You can't always get your armsaround people and their
pathology, but you could arounda chart note and we always got
like the top not to toot my ownhorn, but we always got the top
(23:58):
accreditation.
We always came in with flyingcolors.
My staff was always great andthey were wonderful.
So it was a really good toanswer the question a really
good combination that workedboth from a human place and a I
don't know paperwork place andkept me sane a little bit.
But it meant going in onweekends and looking at charts
(24:22):
and you know it was a lot ofwork.
Tushar Saxena (24:24):
All right, so what is the biggest difference,
then, between an administrativesocial worker and a clinical
social worker, outside of thepaperwork portion of it?
Andrew Chiodo (24:37):
So that's a good question, because in the
hospital system, especially atNorth General, they wanted
numbers.
They wanted us to get patientsin.
They would double book patients.
I didn't agree with this, but Idid it.
They would double book patients.
They were all about getting the, getting the funds and the
(24:58):
clinic.
I had to really balance theclinicians because the
clinicians were like, why arethey double booking us?
And inevitably when you doublebook somebody, the truth is only
one person shows you right.
You book one person, you don'tget a client, you don't get
money and so you don't makeincome, you don't make revenue
that way.
And so that's the biggestdifference was trying to bridge
(25:23):
the understanding that we neededto get financing and revenue
and provide good clinical careand those things can be at odds
with each other.
And that was hard becausesometimes two people would show
up and somebody would have towait.
The clinician would be stressedWere they doing their best work
(25:45):
, knowing they had somebodyright outside waiting to come in
.
It was hard.
That would be the biggestdifference and hospitals have to
do that and for better or worseand I'm not proud of this, but
Cabrini and North General bothand St Vincent's all went under
no longer hospitals in New YorkCity and they went under because
(26:08):
they were not administrativelymanaged well.
Larry Samuels (26:11):
So, Andrew, can you tell us when you made the
decision that you were ready togo out on your own, so to speak,
and start your own practice?
And start your own practice.
Andrew Chiodo (26:23):
Sure, it was that was 08, 18 years after having
worked in three hospitals, thatI felt confident enough to pull
the plug on institutions andplug in the plug on private
therapy.
Larry Samuels (26:43):
And how do you do that?
Do you hang a shingle?
Do you place an ad?
How do you get started?
Andrew Chiodo (26:48):
Well, it helped me that my boss quit.
My boss at North General quitand I didn't want to work for
anybody else, so I thought I'mout and I was already starting a
private practice part-time inthe evenings.
And then I used my network fromSinai Cabrini, north General.
(27:10):
I had a lot of psychiatristfriends, a lot of social worker
friends, and I used that word ofmouth and my network to build a
practice which took me a goodseven years.
Before I was at 45 patients aweek and now I'm at about 35,
(27:33):
and that's a good number for me.
Larry Shea (27:35):
So this question kind of goes without saying that
everybody, this field isn't foreverybody, right?
It takes a very, I think,special person to be a therapist
.
But I have to ask this question, jokingly but not really
jokingly how sick do you get oflistening to people's problems
all day long?
Because that's not foreverybody, right?
(27:56):
It takes, like you said, somereal empathy and some real care
and some real understanding to,day after day, you have your own
problems.
You're dealing with somebodyelse's, that's that's a lot.
Andrew Chiodo (28:06):
Yeah, you know, I think in the beginning it's
really, really, really hardbecause you're not, it's an
untrained muscle.
So if you think of it likegoing to the gym and working a
certain muscle that getsstronger and stronger and
stronger over the years, I cansit down now, now and um, and
(28:31):
it's the rare occasion that Iget a really boring patient,
although I've had them and uhwhat qualifies as a boring
question.
Larry Shea (28:44):
Problems are rudimentary.
Andrew Chiodo (28:45):
Good question.
People who are I have to do, Ihave to be delicate here, people
who are repetitive and sort ofbring in the same problem every
week, every week, every week,without really listening, and
you have to know when tointervene, really listen, and
(29:07):
you have to know when tointervene so I can, someone can
come into the office at a firstmeeting and usually nowadays I
can see what the path is forthem.
But I'm not, I'm not going tosay that I have to wait and I
have to be patient and I have toknow when to when are they?
ready to hear this?
You know, know, when are theyready to hear that they're
acting like their mother, whothey complained to me about for
(29:28):
the last six months?
I'd assume that's what, to methat that seems like the essence
of the boring patient you know,and so it just requires and I
think this is where karate andmeditation helped me be very
patient.
It's the work, it's likeanything.
(29:49):
It's like you go to work andyou're a lawyer.
There are things about doing,being a lawyer that are not so
interesting, but you have to dothem and you learn how to do
them.
And how does one?
How does a therapist separatehis problems right?
Because I've gone throughparental deaths, deaths of
(30:09):
friends, my own sort of personalchallenges.
How do I do that while I'msitting in front of somebody
who's also, you know, telling metheir stuff, you know telling
(30:32):
me their stuff.
In a way, it's kind of easierto listen to somebody else and
shelve your own problems andthen come back to them later in
the day.
It really does prevent you fromruminating about your own
worries because you have to payattention, and so that was
always harder in the first halfof my career and much less hard
(30:53):
in the second half.
Larry Samuels (30:55):
You know I'm wondering about the first part
of your career as a youngtherapist.
How do you get comfortable,meaning I imagine there's a lot
of pressure on you to learn yourcraft.
I mean, if you screw up, I meanI can't imagine what those
consequences could potentiallybe Like.
(31:16):
How do you get comfortable andwhat are those emotions early on
?
Andrew Chiodo (31:23):
And what are those emotions early on?
You have to be able to toleratea lot, a lot, a lot of
discomfort in the work.
It's essential you can't takethings personally and you have
to be okay with screwing up andyou have to own it.
And I've screwed up and I'vesaid to patients I'm sorry, that
(31:52):
was the wrong thing to say, soI apologize.
And if you do that, you're homefree, because patients always
know it's my experience at least, and especially with very sick
patients they always know whenyou're lying or not telling them
.
They always know.
Tushar Saxena (32:01):
Obviously, your clients unburden themselves with
problems to you and you workthrough it.
That's got to be a lot for anytherapist, for you, for anybody
else.
So who do you speak to?
Do therapists need therapists?
Andrew Chiodo (32:17):
In the beginning absolutely In the beginning I
was seeing you have a number ofdifferent things.
A I was blessed with a verygood supervisor who I met weekly
.
B we had group supervision.
C I had an outside group.
I would meet with a therapistto talk about cases um, and I
(32:38):
had my own um.
I would journal or keep a trackrecord of my notes.
But you have to have peoplearound to talk to.
You can't do this work inisolation.
It's a mistake.
You have to be able to talkabout what's being evoked in you
(33:01):
by clients.
Larry Shea (33:08):
Because clients evoke a lot of feelings.
How should a patient go aboutchoosing a therapist that will
work for?
Andrew Chiodo (33:11):
them a.
They should interview at leastthree.
First and foremost, you're aconsumer.
You're looking for a therapist.
You should interview people.
Um, you should assess theenergy in the room itself and
feel like it's this personreally listening to me.
(33:32):
They do.
Are they getting me?
Um, I had a patient recentlycome in and said to me my wife
thinks I should be in therapy.
I said, all right, why?
And he said, well, I haveproblems communicating.
And after I went to AI to lookfor interventions, I thought I'd
(33:57):
come to you, wow.
And I said, well, how did AIhelp?
And they said, well, wow.
And uh, I said, well, how didai help?
And they said, well, you knowai, and we can segue into this
for a second.
Ai was very pragmatic andcognitive, behaviorally oriented
.
I said so, why are you here?
He said, well, I think I need ahuman touch.
I said, okay, we can work withthat.
(34:18):
You know?
Uh, he said I've interviewedthree other people.
And uh, he said I think I'mgoing to pick you.
I said, well, lucky me.
Larry Samuels (34:29):
You over AI, you over the machine.
Andrew Chiodo (34:32):
I want to check with AI once more and so we're
working together and he's agreat guy.
But like that's how you do itright, like you have your
consumer, you shouldn't just buyinto anybody, because there are
a lot of coops out there allright.
Tushar Saxena (34:48):
So I I want to kind of touch on this word that
you've used a lot about workingtogether, right?
Um, obviously, as a therapist,your idea is to listen to your
patient and then, uh, you know,give them feedback.
How much of how much of thework is on the onus of the
patient themselves to workthrough their problem?
(35:08):
What does that mean for apatient to have to work on their
issues?
Andrew Chiodo (35:13):
So it's always a collaboration between therapist
and patient, because the patientdoes it with the assistance of
the therapist, but it isultimately the patient's will
and motivation to change that isessential for a successful
outcome.
You use will and motivation.
(35:51):
Is there any notion, if I cansay, like I do, hold people's
feet to the fire about what theysay they're going to do and
what they don't do?
And what they don't do, youknow, for people with real
mental illness now I'm nottalking about, like I had a
fight with my girlfriend or myboss yelled at me and I'm, you
know, I can't deal with itPeople with real, serious mental
(36:14):
illness I'll often say, listen,this isn't your fault, but it's
your responsibility, it's notyour fault that you have bipolar
disorder, that you have severeclinical depression, but it is
your responsibility to manage it.
Larry Samuels (36:33):
I'm curious and this is where I was going to
head next how has your practice,how has your approach changed?
I mean, you've been at this forrespectfully, for a while.
You're a very experienced guyand you've seen the world flip
upside down in the time thatyou've been practicing.
(36:54):
With the introduction, in someways, of the internet and then
social media and mobile phonesand everything else, how has
that impacted how you treatpatients and your day-to-day?
Andrew Chiodo (37:06):
It has impacted it greatly, Like young men and
women in their 20s and 30s whoare trying to date and are using
dating apps.
When they talk to me about howthey use dating apps, it sounds
like they're shopping for patiofurniture Wow like they're
(37:30):
shopping for patio furniture.
Wow, oh, harvard, no, I don'twant, I don't want the harvard.
No, no, no.
Columbia, no, you know, I want,I want state schools.
I'm like what?
Like it's.
It's surreal, it's like it's a,it's a whole new, and this is
where I sound older.
It is a whole new and this iswhere I sound older.
It is a whole new field ofpathology, because now you have
parents who want to check it.
(37:52):
You know parents who wereraised, who were in their 30s,
raised with phones.
They want to check out too.
So now they're not parenting inthe way they ought to be
parenting and they're givingtheir kids screens to babysit
them.
And so now the whole householdis dysregulated, because not
(38:13):
only are people gettingdifferent information, but
they're also they're livingvirtually versus living
presently, presently.
Tushar Saxena (38:23):
Thank you yeah yeah, they're living virtually.
Andrew Chiodo (38:26):
That's a big change one that is a, has been
now has been a little dauntingfor me because I have a a very
modest I think healthyrelationship to the phone.
It's a, it's an instrument tobe used for for you know, for
(38:50):
practical reasons for me, but Idon't engage so much in social
media.
But I truly feel for the kidsgrowing up that this is going to
be, that this is the tip of theepidemic right now.
But we're headed into somethingvery isolationist where kids
(39:16):
are in their bedroom with thedoor closed doing God knows what
on their phone.
Larry Shea (39:22):
Let's try something fun doing God knows what on
their phone.
Let's try something fun.
I was trying to think of somegood movies that had therapists
in them, like a Dr Melfi withthe Sopranos or maybe you see
yourself in one of these peopleor Richard Dreyfuss in what
About Bob right, one of myfavorites or Stutz, but bigger
than that.
There's a lot of documentariesand things on HBO, things of
(39:44):
that nature that are likeliterally open sessions, like in
treatment and couples therapy,and you see it so open now on TV
and in entertainment.
I'm wondering if there's anybenefit to that.
Could you watch something likethat and take something from it?
Oh, I do a little bit of that.
Or do you look at it and saythis is opening a can of worms?
(40:06):
That?
Andrew Chiodo (40:06):
I'm not sure should be open.
I think it's a mixed bag.
I'll tell you, in the 90s weused the Sopranos I taught
family therapy vis-a-vis theSopranos, because it was so
brilliantly written, so spot onand so hilarious, and as an
Italian American, I could relateto it in tenfold, and so it was
(40:30):
hilarious and smart.
That said, I've watchedShrinking with Harrison Ford.
That's great, adorable andcompletely unrealistic.
And there's a couples's therapyshow I'm not sure the name of
it where they right, I thinkmight even be called couple's
(40:51):
therapy, I think for people whoare thinking about therapy as a
possibility.
I don't think they can do.
You know it's okay.
I think they can do it.
It can be helpful.
I've yet to see, apart maybefrom dr malfi, um, a truly maybe
(41:11):
gabriel burn in in treatment.
He was pretty good, he waspretty good.
Um, I have to give barbarastreisand a thumbs down for the
Prince of Tides.
Love her voice, not the case,and I never saw what About Bob,
so I can't.
Larry Samuels (41:32):
Oh, I love that.
Tushar Saxena (41:33):
Gotta see that movie you gotta see that movie
you gotta see that.
Larry Shea (41:38):
Also interesting Stutz with Jonah Hill.
Jonah Hill has gone through alot of mental issues and he put
his whole process on displaywith this therapist in like an
hour and a half documentary.
I mean, what do you think aboutsomething like that?
I mean, I got a lot out of itbut I haven't seen it and I will
see it now after thisconversation.
Andrew Chiodo (41:58):
The movie that I saw most recently, while it
didn't have a psychiatrist in itbut was loaded with psychiatric
and psychological overtones,was a movie called All of Us
Strangers with the Irish actorthey're both Irish Andrew Scott
(42:18):
and Paul Mescal.
Scott and Paul Mescal, if youhave an opportunity.
It's a beautiful rendering of aman who tries to reckon with
his past and goes back in timeand has imaginary conversations
with his parents.
That, if you're not a mess,after that 90 minutes there's
(42:42):
something wrong with you Right.
Seek therapy right.
Tushar Saxena (42:48):
What about a film like Silver Linings Playbook?
I don't want to have you reviewevery movie that's involving
therapy or therapy.
Andrew Chiodo (42:56):
Bradley Cooper did a great job of portraying a
bipolar patient.
He was terrific.
Larry Samuels (43:01):
I fell asleep in it twice.
Really, I never got through it.
I saw it once in the theater.
Tushar Saxena (43:07):
That's a good movie.
Larry Shea (43:07):
I like to sleep.
I loved it.
Andrew Chiodo (43:10):
It's kind of my go-to feel-good movie when I'm a
little down, yeah.
You know I thought it was okay,but that's just a personal
opinion.
Streisand also did a filmcalled Nuts.
Just a personal opinion.
Um, streisand also did a filmcalled nuts, which was also
terrible.
She should strike out on thatfront.
But I guess the earliest onewas like now I'm dating myself.
(43:34):
One flew over the cuckoo's nestoh well classical classics
absolutely, of course nicholson,which was pretty, pretty good.
Larry Shea (43:42):
Of course.
Tushar Saxena (43:42):
Of course, of course.
Andrew Chiodo (43:44):
Of course, of course, of course, of course, of
course, of course, of course,of course, of course, of course,
of course, of course, of course, of course, of course, of
course, of course, of course, ofcourse, of course, of course,
of course, of course.
Larry Samuels (43:58):
So, andrew, as we move towards the end, we always
ask our guests for advice.
So somebody who would like tofollow in your footsteps and
become a therapist.
What advice do you have forthem as they get started on this
career path?
Andrew Chiodo (44:19):
You know why they're doing it, this career
path, you know why they're doingit.
You often hear people say youknow I went into therapy to.
They won't say it, but you cansurmise that people go into
therapy to fix their ownproblems.
That's not a reason to be atherapist.
You should know oneself and youshould know why you want to do
(44:41):
this.
You should know yourself in away.
Well in the old days, in thenew days, I would just say you
should have a good course oftreatment yourself before you
entertain the idea of becoming atherapist.
That's great advice.
You know, you should reallyunderstand why you want to do
(45:02):
this, because somebody's puttingtheir mental health in your
hands.
Larry Samuels (45:06):
You better really take it seriously, andrew.
This has really been wonderful.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
So that was Andrew Chiodo, withan incredibly powerful story
about purpose and really findingyour purpose.
Larry Shea, what are yourtakeaways?
Larry Shea (45:28):
Yeah, this is not a profession for the faint of
heart.
I would say you really have toenjoy helping people and really
love to dig into the nittygritty of what makes people tick
.
You know we all have problems.
We all need people like this towork out those problems.
But it takes a special person,I think, to really dig into it
(45:49):
and so you could feel that lovewhen he's talking about his
profession.
You know I took so much out ofit.
You know, know why you're doingit, know oneself and have a
good course of treatment foryourself.
You know T, I think you askeddo therapists need therapists?
You know like it's a validthing.
You know you could really tellhow his younger life kind of
(46:10):
shaped his career journey.
You know, and he talked aboutit as well.
He said you know he appreciatesthat he found a career path
that fit who he was and that'ssomething to remember.
With whatever career pathyou're taking, you know, make
sure that it fits yourpersonality, make sure it fits
who you are.
And there was also aninteresting thing that he talked
about with he needed thedetail-oriented work of the
(46:33):
administrative side because itkind of handled his closet OCD
which I found interesting.
And then the clinical stuffallowed him to be with people
and train, because you couldtell what by the way he talks.
He needs people.
He's a people person, so I tookso much out of this.
Tushar Saxena (46:48):
It was a really insightful discussion you know,
the one thing I took a fewthings I took away from this is
that my, my mother, uh, is aretired psychologist and yes, uh
, absolutely uh.
The one thing he said much,much went to today going to this
profession with your eyes open.
But I think the other part ofthat was understand what it is.
(47:09):
You want to get out of thisprofession as well.
Right, you're not going to gointo it with an idea that I'm
going to heal myself through mypatients.
That's not going to happen andthat's not your job either.
Right, as you said, shay, isthat this is not a job for
everyone.
Not everyone should be doingthis.
But I think the one thing thatI really took away from this was
you know, when everyone goes tothe doctor at some point in
(47:30):
their life, right, whether it beyou know, your uh, your your
internist, your uh, your yourorthopedist or whatever.
But in a lot of cases, you know, it's a kind of a clumsy, it's
kind of a clumsy example, butit's like going to a mechanic.
You say, hey, when I raise myarm like this, this hurts, or
I'm coughing and have thisproblem and can you fix it?
(47:53):
Now, for the most part, thosedoctors say, okay, take this
pill or we have to do this X-rayand they can find a problem.
That's not always the case inthis profession.
You are responsible for puttingin a lot of the work that is
going to make you well and itcould take a long time, right,
yeah, we can go to physicaltherapy and work out.
You know aches and pains, butfor the most part, we know
(48:16):
what's going to happen at theend of that journey.
This is not always the case.
We hope that we find areasonable end to whatever the
problem is, but the reality isthat you know it is a real
process and you are responsiblefor making yourself well, as
well as the person who istreating you.
That was a really, reallytelling statement and you know,
(48:37):
it gave me greater insight intowhat my own mother did for so
many years, and that's what Ireally took away from speaking.
Speaking with andrew.
He's a great guy and heobviously loves his patients and
you know what he goes out ofhis way to try and make his
patients better, which is a keyfor any for any health caregiver
absolutely, and I I think forme, what what I'll walk away
(49:01):
with aside from all of that isis kind of how he wound up where
he is.
Larry Samuels (49:20):
You know, he's somebody who spent a lot of time
exploring his own world and hisowns and the impact that that
had upon him.
To find a way to turn all ofthat around and to focus his
passions and to really make adifference and to create a life
around his love for others madea huge impact upon me and I'm so
(49:42):
glad that we had theopportunity to talk to Andrew
today.
I took away so much from thatconversation.
Andrew, thank you so much forjoining us today.
For anybody out there who'dlike to learn more about Andrew,
you can visit his website atandrewciottocom.
Once again, he is a licensedclinical social worker and
therapist based here in New YorkCity.
(50:04):
We also thank you for joiningus.
If this episode made you thinkof someone who could be a great
guest, please send us a notethrough the contact page of our
website at norongchoicescom.
While you're there, pleasecheck out our blog for a deeper
look into each of our guests andepisodes.
As mentioned at the start.
Don't forget to like and followus on your favorite podcast
(50:25):
platform and to connect with uson social media, you can find us
on LinkedIn, Instagram,Facebook, YouTube, TikTok and X.
Your support helps us to keepbringing these incredible
stories to life.
On behalf of Larry Shea, TusharSaxena and me, Larry Samuels,
thank you again for joining us.
We'll be back next week withanother inspiring episode of no
(50:49):
Wrong Choices.
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