Living On The Edge with Foreign News Correspondent Jessica Golloher

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jessica Golloher (00:05):
I am not like the average individual.
I love being in a conflict zone.
I love that sort of work.
Most people wouldn't exactly dothat for a living.
Russia had decided to hit Kievsix times and all of the hits
were within less than akilometer from me.

(00:26):
I'm in the elevator one day andthere's all these guys with
machine guns and it wasbasically a place where
pro-Russian separatists wouldstay.
It was like a hotbed.
I don't know how I got thislucky, but all of these Russians
were there with very Muscoviteaccents, and before I can reach

(00:49):
for the buttons on the elevator,the guy says in Russian oh, the
American journalist, seventhfloor.
And I was like, oh well, thankyou.
If they really wanted to messyou around and screw you up,
they could.
It's just a way to harass.
Yes, you have to be careful,but what are you going to do?
I was freelance for a lot ofdifferent networks.

(01:12):
They don't.
You know what?
If you're freelance, they don'towe you anything.
That's the beauty of afreelancer who, you know, speaks
the language.
Sure, we'll sponsor you.
Sure, you know what you'redoing.
Sure, you're a great reporter,but we are not responsible for
you, missy, and that's part ofthe beauty of it on their end.
Of course, they don't wantanything to happen to you.
If you're a woman withliterally no security and you're

(01:40):
not getting the amount of workthat you're getting, it's
probably not a good idea tostick around.
And you're not getting theamount of work that you're
getting, it's probably not agood idea to stick around.
And you know, the one-yearanniversary of Russia invading
Ukraine is coming up and I am soangry that I'm not there and
I'm so like I have FOMO, fear ofmissing out, and it's like I
can't even watch what's going onbecause it upsets me so much.

Larry Samuels (02:03):
Hello and welcome to no Wrong Choices.
I'm Larry Samuels and I'll bejoined in just a moment by
Tushar Saxena and Larry Shea.
Today's episode features theforeign correspondent, jessica
Gallaher.
Jessica has reported from someof the world's most dangerous
conflict zones, includingUkraine, for major media outlets
like Fox News, npr and the BBC.

(02:25):
This incredible conversationthat it sometimes feels like an
action movie was recorded alittle ways back.
We needed to hold it until now,but it still feels as current
as ever.
Before we kick off, please besure to like, follow and
subscribe to our show.
Here's Tushar Saxena to lead usin.

Tushar Saxena (02:44):
Hey, golly, it's Tush and you know just to, for
full disclosure here, I've hadthe pleasure of working with
Jessica Golliher for I don'tknow, at some point on and off
for about 10 years in anotherlocation.
We worked together at Fox.
She was the Moscow reporter andI got to know Golly personally
for many years over there.

(03:04):
Golly, I want to know this.
I mean, I never got to reallyask a lot about your backstory
when we were working together.
Being a foreign correspondent,has that always been what you've
wanted to do?

Yeah, absolutely.
I can remember being like, ohgosh, like 10 or 11, and
standing in front of mybrother's mirror in his bedroom
because he had this giant mirrorand talking to the mirror
pretending like I was a foreigncorrespondent, and it used to
drive him crazy because he'slike can't you do this in your

(03:34):
own room?
I'm like not now, I am verybusy.

Which country are you broadcasting from?

I'm actually in the Estados Unidos right now.

No, no, I mean like when you were a kid oh
correspondent in front of themirror.
Where were you broadcastingfrom at that point?

You know what, some days it would be Sweden,
some days it would beSwitzerland, because I liked to
ask countries back then.
But yeah, it just varieddepending on my mood.

Larry Shea (04:02):
And it sounds like you prefer to be in the field
out getting that story asopposed to behind a desk or
something like that anchoring.
You much prefer to be out theregetting your hands dirty a
little bit.

Absolutely.
I think it really has to dowith I like talking to people
and that sounds so stupid and sobanal, but I like to be on the
ground and listening to people'sstories, because that's what
it's all about.
I mean, you can sit behind adesk in New York or wherever you
are and anchor and talk aboutwhat's happening in Beijing,

(04:40):
moscow or wherever, but it'smore important, I think, to be
with people, find out howthey're feeling, and that's
really the main story Because,quite frankly, you can get
information from news servicesand just do the bullet points
and the facts, but that's notthe real story.

(05:02):
You need to find out what'shappening on the ground and
that's much what I prefer to do.
I don't mind anchoring.
I love anchoring.
A lot of people hate my voice,but that's fine and it's just.
I prefer to be out of theoffice, if you will.

For sure.
So, jessica, this is LarrySamuels, by the way, thank you
so much for joining us again.
Take us back to the beginning.
You know you jump forward frombeing in your room looking at a
mirror having a conversationthat was driving your brother
crazy, like how did you go aboutbecoming a foreign
correspondent school, et cetera,et cetera.

That's a really good question.
It was not a direct path.
I graduated from SouthernMethodist University in Dallas
with a degree in German andRussian, and my mom and her then
husband had both been in thebroadcast business.

(06:00):
My mom was a producer for along time and my stepfather had
been an anchor and they alwayssaid don't do it.
You can't make a lot of moneyuntil you hit a certain level.
It's just not worth it.
You know communications atschool is kind of a joke.
It's like a belly button.
Everyone's got one.
You know you need somethingthat's going to set yourself

(06:23):
apart from other people, and I'dalways really, really liked
languages.
I had gone to school in Swedenas an exchange student and I'd
learned Swedish.
So I thought you know what, whynot just try some languages and
see if that won't help things?
So I graduated and went to workfor a German film producer in
Los Angeles and he was just anawful individual.

(06:45):
I mean, I just wanted to be areporter.
He was an arrogant jerk thatmade fun of my German and I
thought this is not going to getme anywhere.
So what I did is I took adelivering the news on camera
class at UCLA Extension and Iloved it.
And I met this girl there whowas reporting in Santa Ana

(07:06):
California and she's like, hey,listen, why don't you go down
and talk to them and we'll seeif we can't use you?
And I was like fantastic, andthey were really nice.
I did television there.
It was like cable access and soI got my reel started there.
And then I had to move backhome to Oklahoma for a little
bit due to some family issuesand I was like you know, I

(07:31):
really want to continue with thereporting and I saw an ad in
the paper for a traffic reporterand the only experience I had
was doing these little rinkydink stories out of Santa Ana
California and magically I gothired.
The guy was really nice, he wasone of the main guys that was

(07:52):
doing traffic reporting and waskind of like a legend.
They called him Hawkeye and forwhatever reason, yeah.
I mean, he's amazing and he hadbeen doing it for like 8,000
years at that point.
So for whatever reason, he tookpity on me, I don't care.
So he gave me the job and Ireally liked the traffic

(08:12):
reporting.
They refused to let me use mylast name, which is Gallagher
kind of hard to pronounce, so myname was Jessica Lane, as in
like changing the car lane, ohlook at that.
That was pretty awesome.

Hawkeye was a genius.

He was, and he's actually still doing what
he was doing 85,000 years ago,which is pretty amazing.
That's longevity for thisindustry anyway.
And so while I was there, Ialso got to work at one of the
oldies stations, which was inthe same complex, and I was

(08:46):
terrible at that I'm going to bethe first person to admit it
because it was like I had noidea about oldies music and
people would call in and they'relike you're mispronouncing the
songs, what?

Larry Shea (08:57):
are you talking about?

You sound like Lisa Simpson, how old are you?
But I really liked it and so Iwas done there in Tulsa, decided
if I wanted to get like Iwanted to get obviously get to a
bigger market, no offense, noone wants to stay in Tulsa,
oklahoma.
I mean, I'm from there, I loveit, but that ain't exactly the
big time.
So I decided to go to gradschool in Boston for journalism,

(09:22):
even though my parents had saidno, that's really stupid.
But I thought you know, I needsomething that's going to help
me and I really think I'm goingto make some contacts there and
I did.
I met this kid in my class inmy graduate class who was
working at the NPR affiliate inBoston, and so he brought me on

(09:42):
there and I did producing anddirecting for their newscast
unit.
They refused to let me?

What year was that?
Are you going to date me?
I mean, this is going to makeme seem like.

I'm 75 years old now.
That's a good question.
That was I graduated gradschool in 2000.

Okay so, this is 2000.
Oh my gosh 23, you were farfrom very grown up if it was in
2000 that is not a terribleanswer by any stretch of the
imagination I'm happy to be like1965 in 1937 I was in baston.

And then I know and I'm sorry this is
taking so long, but it literallywas not an easy trajectory for
me.
So anyway, I'm in Boston.
I did that for like two yearsand they refused to let me
report and I was gettingfrustrated because I was the
lead producer.
I was, you know, like doingreally well in the newscast unit

(10:46):
, but it seemed like everyperson that came in after me
which was pretty much every Tom,Dick and Harry was allowed to
to go on air and I wasn't.
So I talked to a colleague andI was like, listen, I want to go
back to anchoring, Can you helpme out?
And so he suggested um, itwasn't Metro, yeah, it was Metro

(11:07):
Networks.
So I was, I got a job there andthey were really great to me.
So I would anchor for variousstations throughout
Massachusetts and I really likedto anchor.
It was fun, but obviously Idon't sound like I'm from
Massachusetts and those peopleare really like they're born,
bred, go to school there andthey stay there.

(11:28):
So it was like anything west ofWorcester was like complete,
like they didn't understand me.
So it was like I gotta get outof here.
I did traffic reporting theretoo, and that was for serious,
like nationwide, and I thought,okay, this is great, but I don't
want to stay here.
And a colleague from NPR inBoston had moved down to DC and

(11:51):
she was working at the NPRaffiliate in Washington and so I
ended up on as the reporter,the lead reporter for Washington
DC.
So I was basically covering themayor at that time, who was

(12:15):
Adrian Fenty, and I loved it.
It was great.
I mean, it really was a fun job, a good market.
Another friend of mine whoworked at the station was
anchoring at NPR on the weekendsand so I went over there and
bugged them and they decided tolet me produce for the newscast
unit and then report fromWashington DC.

(12:36):
So I'm getting to the good,exciting part now.
When I was sitting editing oneday in the newscast unit, I was
talking to one of thecorrespondents that would file
for the newscast unit who livedin Toronto.
He was like Gala, are youthinking you're going to stay
there?
And I was like well, you know,I'm always looking.
And I was like I want to use mylanguage skills.
And he's like well, what arethose?
And I told him German andRussian.

(12:56):
He's like you're.
And I was like, hell, yeah,sign me up.
So I mean, that's just how ithappened One Saturday night at
2am, Gallaher, you want to go?
And I was like yes, and I linedup some other strings and I
went and sort of.
The rest is history.

So that was what year.

Now that's a good question.
That was 2003.

So from 2000 to 2003, you're essentially just
I'm not saying spinning yourwheels, but you're building.
No, no, you weren't.
I mean, you were kind ofbuilding your reputation.
Obviously, you're going throughthe NPR ranks, you're doing the
producing thing, but you'reobviously building a reputation.
At that point till, finally,you're able to kind of land that

(13:45):
, land that one, that oneconversation which says, yes,
now I can make that one move.
So you've now, you're nowsaying, okay, I'm going to make
that move to moscow for the cbc.
So what's that moment like?

it was great, but I have to correct you I I
lied, it was 2008.
I was five years off.

Okay, oh, wow Okay.

So I spin my wheels for another five years.
It was great.
I mean, they were very, youknow, it was almost like I was a
little shocked at how easy itwas, because the reporter who
put me in touch with the CBCInternational desk I had known
him for like the two years thatI'd been working for NPR and he

(14:27):
was like, you know, you need tocontact and just sort out the
details.
And I thought it was going tobe one of these things where,
like, okay, we'll use you onceor twice or whatever.
But I got on the horn with himand he's like, hey, do we still
have an apartment there?
And he was yelling out to thepeople in the bullpen of the
newsroom and they're like, no,we got rid of it.
Oh well, that's too bad, wecould have given you a flat.

(14:48):
And I was like, oh my gosh, Iit was.
It was unexpected, it was great.
And they used me.
I mean, I was their person inMoscow and the former CIS
countries for nearly a decadefor television and radio and
they were so great and so kindand it was a wonderful
opportunity.

(15:08):
You know, at first I was justlike, well, it's not going to be
that much, but they were.
They meant business, you know,and I appreciated that.

So I guess I guess that would be my question
like making that jump from theUS and then saying, yes, I'll
take this job in Moscow.
So like what is that cultureshock like?
Because you know, obviouslyit's just I'll stuff everything
in the bag, grab my passport andgo.
But like what is that cultureshock like?

You know, for me it wasn't.
I mean, russia is a veryspectacularly strange place and
I like that.
I like weird.
I'm not exactly normal.
I think I had experience withjust sort of moving around.
I went to like boarding schoolwhen I was a kid.
I never really spent a lot oftime at home.

(15:54):
I always kind of did my ownthing, so that part was easier
for me, I think, than mostpeople.
I literally packed two giantsuitcases and I told my friend
before I left, I'm like how am Igoing to carry this?
And she's like that's the leastof your worries, my dear.
And I'm like what do you?
mean I'm worried about you, know, but I got there literally with
two suitcases and I had alreadybeen to Moscow before because I

(16:18):
spent a semester there when Iwas in college at Moscow State
University, so I knew the lay ofthe land.
College at Moscow StateUniversity, so I knew the lay of
the land.
But we're talking like thedifference between 1995, when
they're selling meat on thestreet and Levi's jeans, and you
know, going back in 2008 iscompletely different.
So I was a little nervousbecause I thought, well, I don't

(16:39):
know anybody here.
And I just got really lucky.
I found a flat with wait for it, two girls from Texas how
strange is that?
Yeah, I mean, it was amazingand one of them now she became
the first female director at theBolshoi.
I mean, just I, it was kismet.
I got so lucky and theybasically took care of me.

(17:00):
They showed me how to negotiatebribes, they showed me how to
get my passport registered,because as a foreigner you have
to do that and a lot of you know, like landlords won't do it.
It was a culture shock.
But I was immensely, immenselyhelped by these people who had
already been there for yearsworking, and their Russian was

(17:24):
8,000 times better than mine.
But you know, once you get usedto how things work and you can
get yourself settled legally ifthat makes sense like worrying
about the Russian bureaucracy,which is by far worse than the
French bureaucracy.
You know you can worry aboutthe other stuff later, and then

(17:44):
I was very lucky with work.
But you know Russia is not aneasy place to live.
People are cranky, you know.
Nobody smiles at you on thestreet and they have this great
saying that it's like if you'resmiling it means you're an idiot
, like there's something wrongwith you.
What?

do you have to be happy about you know?

Larry Shea (18:01):
what I mean Sounds like New York City.

You know what kind of happy about.
You know what I mean Soundslike New York City.
You know what kind of is itprepared me for that.
I think the most unfriendlyplace I've ever been is Boston,
quite frankly.
But you know, that's why theycall them mass holes.

Larry Shea (18:16):
you know, Excuse my French.

But I was okay once I got the bureaucracy
settled and the rest came intoplay, because I had the support.

Larry Shea (18:29):
Yes, it was difficult, but I knew the
language and I had the support.
That's exactly my question.
You knew the language, but wereyou shocked at how good the
communication was with thepeople around you?
Were you immediately terrified?
Oh my God, my Russian has toget a lot better quickly.
How did that go in terms of thecommunication aspect of things?

You know that's a great question.
I will give you this perfectexample.
I think the first week that Imoved into this flat with these
girls, the landlady decided tocome over to meet the new
American and she looks at me andshe says something and I had no
idea.
I looked at my friends and theywere like she said what's your

(19:09):
name?
I was so like such a there's aterm for it like even though you
speak the language, you're justnot.
I was in shock.
I guess I didn't you know.

Larry Shea (19:23):
You weren't fluent with the conversational aspect
of it, maybe.

Yeah, but I mean, even though I had passed
all the tests and I had a degreein Russian, I was just sort of
like a false beginner.
I guess is what they say.

Right.

And so I was like holy guacamole, what a
goober I am.
But then within like a coupleof weeks, I'm fine, I'm doing
interviews in Russian, but thatjust tells you like you have to
immerse yourself.
You know what I mean.
Here's the goofball that has adegree in Russian who doesn't
even know what your name is.
I think I was just, you know,out to lunch and I had just

(19:57):
gotten there and I was like, ohmy God.
But then you know, I mean, myRussian is fine, I do interviews
, but people really have adifficulty with my accent
Ukrainians specifically.
I was interviewing a guy on thestreet one day and he goes, hey
, let me ask you something.
And I was like yeah.
And he's like, are you animmigrant?
And I'm like, well, yeah, kindof like I'm from America.

(20:20):
America, oh my God, I thoughtyou were from Bulgaria.
What kind of Russian is that?
And it was just like they don't.
You know, they think I'm fromlike Bulgaria or Moldova, which
I take as a massive compliment.

That's better than Oklahoma in this regard.
Right, Come on Closer.

I think it's a huge compliment.
You know where'd you learn thatRussian?
And I was like you know.
Of course I have to be snarky.
I'm like at your veryprestigious Moscow State
University, sir.
You know, I mean Go polar bears.

So, jessica, as you're there, you're getting
established, you're learning thelanguage, You're learning the
ropes, you're developing anetwork.
But, like, let's move forwardfrom there a little bit to.
You know the news coverage, youknow what was the political
climate.
Like, you know, how did youdevelop a network of contacts?
And you know, was there a pointever that that you began to

(21:15):
feel like you were suddenly onthe radar screen of others?
Like, like, sir, let's dig intothat and the bribes.

Larry Shea (21:21):
We want to hear about the bribes, yeah.

Oh yeah, well, there's a saying that there is
an etiquette to the bribe inRussia.
I, you know.
There are certain places youknow you can go for a quote,
like the Carnegie Centerexcellence.
There were a couple other thinktanks that hadn't been thrown

(21:44):
out at that point.
That didn't come for yearslater, maybe about five or six
years later.
So you knew that you could goto those people for good
information, solid information,because you're always going to
need that for a story, and thatwas an easy thing to do.
But editors would getfrustrated.
They're like, oh my God, isn'tthere somebody besides Masha

(22:07):
Gessen that you can talk to?
Or the other people that youkeep using?
Well, yeah, I could, but theywon't talk to me, and a lot of
other reporters had the same.
We all use the same people.
That's just how it was.
I ended up cultivating friendswho were in Russia at that time

(22:28):
on various fellowships.
They were professors, assistantprofessors, and so they also
had insight.
That was excellent.
So I could use my friends thatwere coming from London, that
were university professors there, which is also really good, or
other friends who were diplomats, and you can get information
that way.

(22:48):
But it has to do with, like youknow, sure, you can get your
basic quote from the CarnegieCenter, but you also want to
cultivate that and I think youknow having these two girls who
really helped me from Texas meeteverybody and meet all of my
friends that's how I gotinformation was through meeting
people and, if you know, maybeif I would have rented a flat on

(23:09):
a Thursday instead of a Fridayit would have been a completely
different career trajectory.
So I was very, very lucky withthat.
And to answer your questionabout being on radar, you know
that didn't take very long to beon.
I'm assuming you're meaninglike Moscow's radar.

You know, like if you were covering politics and
news and hard news like when didthey start to sort of monitor
your behavior?
If at all.

Well, I mean they still do.
I mean I have a lot of weird.
We can get into that later, butthat started relatively quickly
.
Weird, we can get into thatlater, but that started
relatively quickly as soon as,because you have to be
accredited with the foreignministry in order to report
there.
So I was sponsored.
They have all of yourinformation, they know where you
live.

(23:58):
The first or the set no, it wasthe second Christmas that I'd
stayed there to work because,you know, obviously a lot of
correspondents go home andthere's more work.
So I was like, yeah, I'll justtake everybody else's work.
And I had gone to the store andbefore I left the apartment I
would, you know, always close mycomputer, obviously lock the
door.
Nobody was home and I came backfrom the store and, I don't

(24:22):
know, something was just off.
I just felt really weird.
It's going to make me soundlike a crazy lady, but I was
like something is not right andI leaned against the door to put
my bags down and the dooropened and I was like ew, I know
.
I locked it.
You know, like I'm one of thesepeople, safety first, you know,
even though I spend half of mytime in war zones.
So I went to my office where Iwas working and my computer was

(24:46):
up and my Gmail was open and Iwas like, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
I do.
I did everything through Gmail,all of my scripts, everything.
So that's just a friendlyreminder, you know it's how
early did that happen?
That was within the first yearthat I was there.
But all of our phones aretapped.

(25:08):
You can hear it Like you know.
You're on the phone and youhear someone tap in twice right.
So you're talking and it's likeclick, click.

Then they can listen to your… Literal tap in.
Yeah, literal tap in.

Yeah, it's a tap in and I guess that's why
it's called the phone tap, sothey tap in and then they can
listen to see what you'recomplaining about, what you're
doing, are you reportingwhatever, and then, if it's
boring, vladimir has somethingelse to do They'll tap, you'll
hear another click and they'llbe gone.
So that would happen all thetime, or?
I think one of my favorites wasand the CBC got really

(25:45):
frustrated, understandably,during the mass demonstrations
in 2011,.
I'd be sitting there waitingfor my live hits and we did all
phoners at that time.
So we're talking like 20,000people in these mass
demonstrations against VladimirPutin and they're like all right
, gallagher is out in thestreets amongst the protesters,
what's happening now?

(26:05):
And they cut the line rightbefore I was getting.
Yeah, and this happened likegazillions of times, and they
were getting upset with me andI'm like I can't control it, and
they're like we're hearingtapping on the other end.
I'm like, well, welcome toRussia.
What do you want, you know?
What do you want me to do aboutit?
So those sort of things wouldhappen.
But it's, you know, it's not.

(26:26):
It's annoying, it's nefariousto a point, but it's only just
to let you know that they'rethere.
If they really wanted to dosomething to you, they would
have.
You know what I mean?
It's just, it's a way to gentlyharass, if you will.

Okay, so then how do you protect yourself from
that?
Obviously, you've got thenetwork which is going to try
and protect you.
You've got the consulate whichis going to try and protect you.
But how do you then protectyourself from obvious, covert,
overt harassment like that?
You?

can't, you can't.
And to answer your question,the network, listen.
I mean, I was freelance for alot of different networks.
You know what, if you'refreelance, they don't owe you
anything.
That's the beauty of afreelancer who speaks the
language.
Sure, we'll sponsor you.
Sure, you know what you'redoing.
Sure, you're a great reporter.
But we are not responsible foryou, missy.

(27:21):
That's part of the beauty of it.
On their end, of course, theydon't want anything to happen to
you.
But at the same time you'regetting all the good stories and
you're standing out there in acrowd of 20,000 people and
they're getting great sound.
And you know, sorry if you getbumped around, if they break
your arm, too bad.

(27:41):
You know, nobody wants it tohappen, but that's part of the
job.

Larry Shea (27:44):
We were half joking about whatever room you go into,
you're sweeping for bugs andstuff, but it sounds like, since
we're in this territory, weneed to talk about it.
I mean, everywhere you go, areyou checking for surveillance?
Are you looking for bugs?
Did you have a method to howyou would I don't know make sure
a room was not touched, or didyou just understand that

(28:07):
whatever you said was going?

I understood because, first of all, I mean
I'm not going to lie.
I did Google like what does abug look like If there, if
there's a teddy bear randomly inmy hotel room, I would turn it
around and see if there's like acamera in it.
I'm not going to lie.
I did little stuff like thatbecause that did happen?

Larry Shea (28:29):
If you found one, what would you do?
Like would you try that I'dtake it out, or wave, or
whatever?

you know but.
I mean, I'm not stupid to thinkthat, you know, I can do
anything about it.
I mean, it was, for instance,when I was in Donetsk in 2014,.
I was there on the ground whenRussia had started their little
operation and I was doing a lotof tweeting and I was just

(28:57):
basically tweeting the facts andthere was this one guy who kept
like coming back to me anddisputing everything I said.
And I'm looking at his name andI'm like God, why does his name
sound familiar?
And so I look him up.
I'm like, oh whoops, that's thehead of the pro-Russian
separatists.
I should probably I mean like ohmy, you know that like, and I

(29:20):
was just like, oh golly, youmight want to pay a little bit
of attention.
You know, it was weird stufflike that.
Or I took a vacation in 2014,like after, you know, crimea was
annexed, and all of a sudden,I'm getting like check-ins from
Donetsk.
You know like, I'm apparentlyin Donetsk on Facebook and I'm,

(29:41):
you know, I mean stuff like that.
It was just like, well, firstof all, I love Donetsk,
especially in the spring.
It was beautiful, but I am notthere.
I mean, it was.
It was weird stuff like thatand it's just something that you
have to be prepared for.
And, like I said, if theyreally wanted to mess you around
and screw you up, they could.
It's just a way to harass.

(30:03):
Yes, you have to be careful,but what are you going to do?
You know that's part and parcelfor the job.

Did any of that stuff ever influence how you
covered a story or hold you backfrom doing?

anything.
September I was in.
I mean, it necessarily wasn'tthe harassment, but it was just

(30:39):
the whole like journalismindustry in general for me.
I was in Kyiv in September andthis was my third trip in.
I was there when the warstarted.
I mean, I spent pretty much allof 2000, um, all of last year
in in Ukraine in various parts,and it was right after Ukraine,

(31:01):
um blew up the Kerch bridge,which is the bridge from the
mainland to um, to Crimea.
I mean, of course they say theydidn't do it, but yes, okay.
So, um, I had been filing a lotfor this one network and I had
made a lot of money for them andI really loved it.
But this time that I went, thelast time, I wasn't being used

(31:22):
very much.
I was like what's going on?
I used to be on televisionevery single hour.
I was making buku bucks, what'shappening here?
And I was just like, well,maybe it's a money issue or
whatever.
And this was one random morning.
I'm sleeping on the sofa,couldn't use the bedroom, but
that's a whole other story.
And I hear like one explosionand I'm thinking, okay, maybe

(31:45):
it's like a power outage.
And then another, and thenanother, and they're like
massive, massive explosions.
And I'm in this Stalin buildingright and I'm like holy crap,
what's going on?
Are they bombing the city again?
Because they hadn't really donethat since the beginning of the
war when they had to retreatback in March.
And the first thing I dostupidly, I mean not is run

(32:09):
downstairs to the bomb shelter.
I grab my phone and I look outthe window and I see other
people like hanging out thewindow taking pictures.
Um, there were just explosionseverywhere and smoke and Russia
had decided to hit Kiev sixtimes and all of the hits were
within less than a kilometerfrom me.
And, yeah, and the guydownstairs from me, sparkle Joel

(32:34):
, appreciate this screamed,which is like not a very nice
thing to say.

Larry Shea (32:39):
Like you, know, I mean like we're literally being
bombed.

And he like gets on the horn.
I can hear everything.
It sounds like he's on like a1949 rotary phone.
I'm not leaving these bastards,you know.
I mean, and I just thought tomyself this is, you know,
galaher, if you were making bukubucks, you should stay.
But literally, like, I wentoutside when I thought it was
all over and I was just likethere's, you know, stuff has

(33:07):
been blown up everywhere and Ijust happened to be in the
middle of it and I was like it'sokay if I'm making a lot of
money, but, you know, but atsome point something's got to
give right.
And I think that was my notnecessarily harassment, but sort
of well, okay, this isdangerous.
I mean, I've been doing it fora long time.

(33:27):
Of course it's dangerous, butif you're a woman with literally
no security and you're notgetting the amount of work, that
you're getting.

It's probably not a good idea to stick around,
okay.
So I kind of want to stick onthat point for just another
minute and and because I was,you know it's good that you hit
on that, because I was I wantedto kind of touch back on crimea,
because you were there duringthe invasion of crimea as well
and did you see a similar typeof danger?
Because I remember speaking toyou at Fox and you talking about
how you know you were harassedby, as you said, by separatists,

(34:02):
by little green men, and howyou felt that intimidation and
danger in the Crimea as well.

Yes, you know what, and I wanted to touch base
on that earlier, but Grandmahere forgot.
Yes, yes, you know what, and Iwanted to touch base on that
earlier, but grandma here forgot.
Yes, I was so.
Essentially, I was really luckywhen I was in Crimea.
I stayed at this great BlackSea resort and the people were
really nice to me.
They basically took care of me.
I had made a mistake and I wassupposed to stay in the capital

(34:33):
of Crimea, but I picked adifferent locale and I ended up
in this resort along the BlackSea.
And so I'm in the elevator oneday and there's all these guys
with machine guns and it wasbasically a place where
pro-Russian separatists wouldstay.

(34:55):
It was like a hotbed.
I don't know how I got thislucky, but all of these Russians
were there with very Muscoviteaccents and before I can reach
for the thing to do the buttonson the elevator, the guy says in
Russian oh, the Americanjournalist, seventh floor.
And I was like, oh well, thankyou, hello.

(35:19):
I mean I was like, oh, goodmorning, senor, you know.
I mean it was just like guyswith machine guns were at the
breakfast buffet, right?
I mean it was just like, okay,and it was right, after the
referendum, when Crimeaaquote-unquote or crimeans
quote-unquote um yeah, voted tobe part of yes, I walk in and

(35:43):
there are I don't know, probably200 men with crew cuts in the
lobby and I see my favorite girlwho works behind the front desk
and she's like jessica, and I'mlike and she's like Jessica,
and I'm like yes.
And she's like, okay, so you'rechecking out tomorrow.
And I said no, ma'am, it says Ishould be here for another week
and a half, so you're checkingout tomorrow.

Larry Shea (36:05):
Oh, my goodness.

Right and I said no, what's happening?
So we've got you checked outfor tomorrow.
And then she started lookingaround the room at these
Russians who all had crew cuts.
So she basically saved my arse,this lady.

Yeah, to get the hell out of Dodge.
Right, she did.

And I was like oh yes, I am, thank you very
much.
And then she I mean, she reallyhad this look of like you
better be paying attention to me.
It was all.
It was a mix of fear and hey,goofball, you're not getting it.
You know what I mean?
And I was just like okay, so Ileft.
But another thing I wanted tomention is, right after the

(36:52):
pro-Russian separatists hadtaken over the municipal
building in Donetsk, I went downthere and I'd been down there
before and I'd interviewed thesepro-Russian separatists and
they were like little kids, like18-year-olds with machine guns,
bandanas.
The place looked like.
You know, it didn't look good.
There was barbed wireeverywhere, there were pictures
of Obama and like dogsdefecating on Obama.

(37:15):
It was not a good place to beright.
But that's where you get thegood interviews and I didn't
have a problem when I had firstgotten there and I interviewed
these two guys and it washilarious because one was little
like little.
He looked like he was maybe 18and weighed a buck 05 max, maybe
18 and weighed a buck oh, fivemax.
And this guy that was with himwas a little chubbier, which is

(37:43):
very unusual for Eastern Europe,and I was like so what's going
on here?
Can you tell me everything?
And the little guy was like shehas this accent, I just can't
understand anything.
And so the bigger guy had to bemy translator, and it was really
just like sort of one of thesemoments where it was like, well,
these are nice fellows, youknow, they're interviewing me,
they're translating, this is agood place.
I'll come back here.
So I came back again for thelast time and I was taking

(38:07):
pictures of the Donetsk People'sRepublic flag that had been
raised over the municipalbuilding and all of a sudden,
out of the corner of my eye, Isee like six guys like running
towards me, with machine guns,of course, and they're like what
are you doing?
And I was like, well, I'mtaking a picture of your

(38:27):
beautiful flag.
You know what else am I going?

to say Paid them a compliment, yeah.

I was like, oh God.
And so I didn't think anythingof it because the guys before
that I had interviewed were sonice to me, right I mean, I
seriously thought everything wasgoing to be fine.
And they got closer and theywere like give me your phone.
The leader guy.
And I was like no, I'm notgiving you my phone.
I told you, I'm just taking apicture.

(38:55):
Give me the phone.
And so I handed him the phoneand my phone was in Swedish,
because I like to keep up mylanguage skills and whatever.
And he was like is this?
What language is this?
You're not American, are you?
And thank God, I mean, yeah, Ihave an accent in Russian, but
they don't know the differencebetween Swedish or American.
And I said I'm Swedish.
And he's like show me thepictures, open the phone.
So I opened the phone and he'slike I want you to delete these

(39:19):
right now.
And I'm like I'm not going todelete the pictures, I'm not
because, you know, my thoughtwas they're not going to do
anything.
They had just kidnapped a guy,an American guy, but they
weren't gonna like mess aroundwith a lady in the middle of a
meeting.

They're not going to do anything.
They just kidnapped somebody.

No but I mean, you know what I mean.
Maybe that was stupid, right,but I'm in the middle of a
square, a public square.
We got grandmas to the left, atank, other reporters were using
this place to report because ithad great views, and I said no,
and then they got closer andstarted like manhandling me,

(39:59):
like pushing me and stuff, and Iwas like, okay, like I didn't
expect that.
I mean, I call me stupid,whatever, and it was actually my
birthday that day and Iscreamed at the both of them and
both of them.
I screamed at all of them and Isaid, listen, today is my
birthday.
I am a lady, I am alone, myfamily is not near me.

(40:22):
I want to have a good day.
And shame on you.
Your grandmothers would be sodisappointed and they literally
gave me back my phone, wished mehappy birthday and left me on
my way.
Now that's a way to get like arussian man shame a russian man.
To tell them that theirbabushka would be disappointed.
And that's how I got out.

(40:43):
I was like, oh my god, I meangolly oh, my god, it was not.

Larry Shea (40:48):
I can't you know?
People are listening to thisand um, I would have for the
airport, I don't know aboutanybody else.

They had blown the airport up at that point,
oh great.

Larry Shea (40:57):
Yeah, but let's talk about what you're feeling Like
it sounds like you weren'tscared.
It sounds like you were moreemboldened by this and I really
want to touch on because youmentioned it being a woman.
It sounds like you felt almostempowered that they wouldn't do
anything to a woman.
I would feel that in a placelike Russia, that would be a
point of vulnerability becauseof how they treat women.

You know what.
You make a very good point.
There is a fine line.
To give you an example, thereis a phrase in Russian that says
To beat means to love.
It's not unusual for a man tosmack his wife or smack his
girlfriend, but it's also verycommon for a Russian man to

(41:40):
carry a woman's purse.
You see it all the time.
They bring women flowers.
They respect women.
They do not shake a woman'shand Like when you meet them,
and a lot of times they will noteven address you.
You know that could be seen asa sign of disrespect, but
there's also a line of respectthat's there and I guess I'm

(42:00):
just stupid.
God protects babies and fools.
I didn't think it was going tobe an issue.
I didn't think I was going toget roughed up.
But I also have to point outwhen I walked away I didn't run
because I thought that would belike a bad sign.

Larry Shea (42:13):
You know what I mean .
Like they could have chased medown.

I, stupidly, was wearing a mini skirt in a
war zone with a backpack on.
I mean, I guess I'm just amoron.
But there were these guys thatwere foreign correspondents,
that were there with theirsecurity, that watched the whole
thing, and so I then screamedat them.
I was like what the is wrongwith you?
Didn't you see what they weredoing?

(42:36):
And they just were, like,wanted nothing to do with that.
They were more scared.
Do you know what I mean?
Then I was, and I was just likethat was more insulting to me
than the Russians.
I got lucky.
I insulted them, saying thattheir grandmothers would be
ashamed of them and it is mybirthday.

They're very big on birthdays.
You know you played every card.
You knew I did.

I mean I don't know.
It just came to me because Ithought, okay, they're not.
What are they going to do?
Are they going to drag me intothe municipal building?
All of these people arewatching, right.
I mean I really didn't thinkthat they would do anything.
I was more mad about thecorrespondents that were like
standing there, mouths open,watching me get pushed around by
like seven guys with machineguns, you know.

So, Golly, you touched a moment ago about this
notion of, obviously I would say, male counterparts, male
foreign correspondents withtheir security kind of watching
and you being a woman beingroughed up by these Russian guys
.
I want to kind of maybe touchon that a little bit and just
ask this notion of femalereporters in the field, and has

(43:41):
it gotten easier or harder for awoman to be a foreign
correspondent?

um, it's more accepted now.
I think, um, but it it's noteasy.
I think a lot of it as a woman,you know, just in general it's
the same.
Has it ever been easy justgoing from Moscow to Kiev when

(44:17):
they had the Orange Revolution,obviously, crimea and also in
eastern Ukraine?
That was easier, not because Iwas a woman, but because the war
wasn't as bad as it was, ifthat makes any sense.
It's never going to be easy, youknow, I mean I.
For me it's a lot of I hateyour voice.
I mean I get that all the time,like if it's on radio, I
apparently irritate people, butif it's on television and they

(44:39):
can see me, it's a differentstory.
It's never going to be easier.
I hope it gets easier.
But you know, I mean I look atall of my girlfriends who are
foreign correspondents and noneof them have children.
None of them.
None of them are married.
And then you look at the guysand the guys have all of this,

(44:59):
you know, support at home withtheir wife and their children.
It just is an easier road tonavigate for men, if that makes
any sense.
And I'm not saying beingmarried is a better deal, but
you have more support and youhave people to back you up when
you're pissed off, you know, forgetting roughed up for the day,
you know.
I mean, who do you talk to, whodo you call?

(45:21):
And I think that's one of themain things is there seems to be
more of a support system, ifthat makes sense.

Larry Shea (45:31):
This is your spark.
I could hear it in your voicewhen you're telling these
stories that this is what makesyou feel alive.
Almost Did you get homesick atall?
Did you have any?
Like I, just, I, just, I don'twant to be in this environment
anymore.
I want to go home.
Did that ever cross your mind?

You know, no, not until I didn't have a lot of
work this last time.
You know, other than that Ilove it and it's like you know I
think some people need.
Maybe there's something wrongwith me, but I know other people
that are actually.

Golly, that was gonna be a question.
Do you have to be a little bitHonestly, do you have to be a
little mentally unbalanced to dothis, you do, you do, and I'm
the first person like I don't.

I am not like the average individual.
I love being in a conflict zone.
I love that sort of work.
Most people wouldn't exactly dothat for a living.
But I get severely, severelydepressed when I'm not doing
something that I love.
You know, I was going back andforth from Ukraine to my place

(46:38):
in Warsaw and I think I wastalking to Sparkles about this.
I'm like I am so bored.
I mean, what has happened to mylife?
I'm drinking Heineken on mysofa because they don't have Bud
Light here, and I'm watchingLittle House on the Prairie and
Real Housewives with my MiddleEastern street dog, who was a
rescue.
What has happened to me, youknow?
I mean like if I'm not doingwhat I love, it really it

(47:01):
affects me.
You know, and I know otherjournalists that are like this
they have this club called theVulture Club and it's like I
think, maybe kind ofself-explanatory.
People just go from war zone towar zone because they get off
on it.

Larry Shea (47:15):
It's a drug.
It sounds like a drug, right.

Like the adrenaline rush right.

Yes, you get that itch, yeah, yeah.

Do you seek out excitement in other ways?
I do.

I do, I used to.
Like I'm not a person ofnon-extremes.
Like you know, I'm one of thesepeople that I either eat a lot
or I don't eat because I'm tooexcited I'm working.
Or if I go out and have a drink, I'm not going to have one
drink and call it a night, I'mgoing to have like five or six.
Right, I don't have happymediums.

(47:47):
I love to exercise, I love toswim, but you know my drug is
work and if it's not therereadily available, I have to
find ways to self-soothe, ifthat makes sense, and I'm not
good at that.
I'm working on that.
I'm actually like to be honestwith you trying to find a

(48:08):
therapist to say to help me.
Like you know, I mean it's notlike you're 15 anymore, like
you're getting older and sure Icould be 60 in a war zone.
I hope to be.
I really really hope to be.
But what are you going to doafter that?
I have to find ways to be aproductive individual and that
does not include drinkingHeineken on my sofa at three in

(48:31):
the afternoon, watching LittleHouse on the Prairie with my dog
.
Like I have to learn how toself-medicate without, you know
going to war zones, or you knowexercising too much or eating
too much.
I mean, these are very realthings.
I think that people do, youknow.

Okay, so I want to ask you about that.
So what has the physical tollbeen on you being in all these
war zones and we haven't eventouched upon your time in the
middle east?
I mean, we've only reallytouched upon your time
essentially in moscow, but Imean you have spent time in the
middle east as well.
What has the physical toll beenon you at this point?

you know, I don't notice the physical toll
because I love it so much andthat's my.
You know, I would talk tofriends and they would say you
know, Gala, I think maybe youneed a vacation.
What?

do you mean I don't need a?

vacation.
You know, like I'm not very I'mself-aware, but it doesn't, it
doesn't matter to me because Ilove it so much.
So there definitely is a tollwhen you or when I come back
from Ukraine, like the last time.
I mean, getting in and out is ablankety, blank show.
So it's like 20 hours on a bus.

(49:41):
You know, there were severaltimes when I was going in and
out when there were likeexplosions within like two
kilometers.
So it's a lot of stress on yournervous system and your body,
but you don't really notice ituntil you get back.
So my whole point is is you takethese like 20, 20, 20, 26 hour
trips in and out and I would getback and I would sleep for like

(50:06):
I don't know a week, notconsistently, obviously, but
like I would go to bed and thenI'd wake up 23 hours later and
my poor dog hasn't gone out andI would just be out like a light
.
So I think it really takes atoll and most networks
rightfully so only put theirpeople in for three weeks.
But since I mean, with theexception of Fox I've always

(50:29):
been freelance and so I wouldnever listen, you know, I would
always just go and go and go andwhen I wasn't there, I couldn't
decompress.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, even if I was on vacation, I'm still checking the news
over and over again and you know, the one year anniversary of
Russia invading Ukraine iscoming up and I am so angry that

(50:52):
I'm not there and I'm so like,I have FOMO, fear of missing out
, and it's like I can't evenwatch what's going on because it
upsets me so much.
It's difficult for me to relaxwhen I'm not doing that, because
it's like what am I going to?
do you know I mean how Right,right, right.

Have you thought of contributing in other ways?
Are there?

You know I'm working.
I wrote a book on Russia a longtime ago.
It was like sort of a memoir,just like funny stories on
Russia, and when I signed acontract with Fox they wouldn't
let me publish it unless theirlegal department had read it.
And I was like no way, I'm not,you know, I'm not doing that.

(51:35):
So the book was on hold andthen, after I got canned from
them, I tried to get itpublished and it was just
rejection after rejection, or Idid get a publisher but then he
ended up having, I think, asubstance abuse problem.
So I stopped working with himand so now I have this book.

(51:58):
That's finished, but I have tochange quite a few things
because of the invasion lastyear.
So, to answer your question, Ihave that book, I'm working on
that, and then I'm working onanother one.
So that really helps, but it'snot.
I'm not going to lie, I'm not.
Unless I'm on a deadline, Ican't function.
So I need to discipline myself,since I'm not filing every

(52:21):
morning, like, let's say, youknow I'm on a deadline, I can't
function.
So I need to discipline myself.
Since I'm not filing everymorning, like, let's say, I'm
not filing all day, every day.
The more I work, the more I do.
So if I was working a lot andfiling a lot, the books would be
finished.
But since I don't have thatdeadline, I'm slow, and so
that's essentially what I'mdoing.
You know, obviously stillfiling for um other networks, um

(52:42):
, mostly in Europe on Ukraine,and that's great, I mean, I've
had longstanding relationshipswith them, um, but it's it's,
it's difficult, and so the booksmake me happy.
I'm doing it because it stillis on the conflict and things
like that, but, um, it ain'teasy.

Do you think that foreign news in general
regardless of whether it's thewar in Ukraine, but foreign news
in general gets enough of theimportance that it needs to here
in the States?

Absolutely not .
No, I think it's a real shame.
I mean, everything is so cookiecutter.
That's why it's easy, you know,for an anchor to sit in New
York and just dole out threepoints from the wires.
You know, I mean, everything isabout big bucks, saving money,
advertising.
It's not about in-depthreporting.

(53:31):
Sure, there's excellentreporting in the New Yorker, the
New York Times, but if we'retalking about, you know,
television or radio, unless it'sa long form podcast, it ain't
there, and I think it's adetriment to the people in the
United States.
And it's not only foreign newsbut even regular, sorry domestic
news in the United States.
You know, I mean, that's why Iremember, when USA Today came

(53:54):
out, people were like, oh,that's just never going to fly,
it's just little tidbits, theyneed more information.
No, I mean, that's basicallywhat's happening is everything
is bullet point, and I reallywish, if wishes were rainbows,
that we could be like Europe.
You know, like, for example,the Süddeutsches Zeitung, which
is a newspaper in Germany.

(54:15):
You know it's left-leaning.
When you pick it up, you knowyou're going to get in-depth
reporting on information andstories, and it's left-leaning.
You know, if you pick upanother newspaper, it's going to
be a little more right-leaningand everything is in-depth, and
it's mostly because journalismisn't private, it's public, it's

(54:42):
like the BBC, the CBC, and it'simportant for people to get
information.
It's not controlled by bigbusiness, and I really wish it
was like that in the States, butit's not, I mean, and thank
goodness it's not because I havework, do you know what I mean?
And because people areinterested in things that are
going on everywhere and peopleare very well read and things
like that.
So, to answer your question,it's really changed and even

(55:06):
within since two, you know, like10 years ago or five years ago,
a lot of networks have pulledtheir foreign correspondence
back and just started everythingout of London, you know, I mean
, and then the reporters have tofight or pitch for a story and
they go wherever the story is,but no longer are there bureaus

(55:29):
everywhere.
You know some networks do it,like NPR, for instance, but the
building that we used inJerusalem was the Jerusalem
Capital Studios.
The AP has gone out of there,at least to my knowledge, and
I'm not sure if even CNN isthere anymore.
I know Fox is there, but somany of the networks have gone

(55:51):
out of the building.
The CBC is gone and it's nolonger the place for the live
shot.
People are working remotely, ifthey still have jobs or if they
haven't been called back toLondon.
So it's really changed.
That venue is not there.
And you know, on one hand Iunderstand business-wise it is
so expensive, so expensive.

(56:11):
But it's a shame, I think, andI think it really doesn't serve
the people.
Well, because if you flipchannels which I've been doing
here, let me tell you, you know,it's the same story, every
channel, doesn't matter whatnetwork you know.
And why is that?
Well, because you don't haveanybody on the ground and you're
all reading the same wire copy.

So golly, I mean, I guess that's a weird way to
kind of wrap, to kind of not saywrap up, but I guess if you had
advice you wanted to give to ayounger journalist out there,
younger female journalist oryounger journalist who wants to
go into becoming a foreigncorrespondent is it still worth
it to be a foreign correspondentand if so, what is the best way
to go about it?

Don't do it.
No, I'm kidding.
I think, I'm a firm believer.
A firm believer If you lovesomething, then you're good at
it.
Maybe I'm an idiot, I don'tknow.
But if you really want to do it, I say, get started early.
You know these.
I don't want to call them kids,but I think that's what they

(57:11):
are.
A lot of the reporters that werein Jerusalem with me were like
I don't know 10 years, 15 yearsyounger, and they were young
kids and it was their first bigposting the Middle East, which I
thought was so odd.
But obviously you're going topay a younger person with less
experience a lot less money,right?
And these kids had been workingfor a while at you know, know,

(57:38):
interning at different networksand what have you, and I think
that was really good.
They had gotten experience.
So if you want to do this, I'dget started early and I'd make
sure, if at all possible, harass, bug anybody to get at a major
network.
Like, do an internship at NBCif you can afford it.
But that's also a double-edgedsword.
Like, if you want to do this,you have to have some sort of

(58:01):
comfort and help, right?
You know who's going to pay foryour rent in New York City.
If you intern and you're notgetting paid.
How is that going to happen,right?
I mean, that's a problem too.
So you know, I mean, is thenews industry an industry of
nepotism and rich kids?
I think in part yes, because howin the world do you get in at

(58:25):
ABC or CBS or NBC or Fox at 22after college?
How did that happen and how didyou afford to stay there?
So my advice is you just got tokeep after it.
I mean, hello, I was in Tulsa,oklahoma, and then ended up
overseas.
And just don't take no for ananswer, because believe you me,

(58:45):
I mean, how many times have Ibeen told no?
I mean I get more discouragednow than I did before, and I
don't know if that has to dowith maybe I'm smarter now or
it's just I've gotten lazy.
But don't take no for an answerand really reach out to
everybody and anybody and peopleare going to be jerks.

(59:07):
I will say that I hope theyaren't and I wish people all of
the best.
But you have to get a thickskin and just because somebody
says you're not good, don'tbelieve them, because if you
believe everything that peopletell you, you're going to be in
trouble.

Golly, how many languages do you?

know, let's see Swedish, German, Russian,
Spanish and English on a goodday, and Ukrainian kind of, but
not very good.

How's your French ?

It's terrible, it's absolutely.
I mean, yeah, I tried to orderFrench fries the other day and
the guy was like quoi, what?

And I was like pommes frites.
Well, with that question, I'mtrying to think of creative ways
to say thank you in manydifferent languages.
Only thing is I know Englishand a little bit of Spanish, so
I guess I can say gracias forjoining us today.
I can't really go any furtherthan that.

Jessica Golloher (01:00:03):
De nada.
That is all that's needed.

Larry Samuels (01:00:05):
My pleasure.

I'm happy to give my sage advice, or I'm not
sure if it's sage, but it'sadvice anyway.

It's advice on the line Advice inspiring might
have scared a few people, but alittle bit of everything,
jessica.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.

Oh, it's my pleasure, thank you.

Well, I tried to figure out how to say thank you
in multiple languages.
I'm now trying to figure outhow to say adrenaline, junkie,
crazy and all those other things.
What an unbelievably exciting,scary and over-the-top story.

Larry Shea (01:00:39):
Yeah, we learn a lot from these interviews, and I
think the thing I've learned themost is that I do not want to
be a foreign correspondent.

Here is the one wrong choice for most of us.

No wrong choices, people no.
But you could feel her courage.
I mean we talk about couragewhen it comes to your profession
a lot.
You know leaving a job or oryou know going, going, starting
your business or something ofthat nature.
This takes courage of aproportion that I don't think
we've discussed on this show atthis point, and I have such

(01:01:12):
admiration for what she does andit is like a drug, I think.
I do think there's an adrenalinethat comes with it and she says
she sleeps for a week when shegets home.
I mean I could imagine, becauseyou're so wired and then you
get home and everything mustseem so mundane or or down right
, and then you seek it again.

(01:01:32):
I could see.
I wonder if it ages out at acertain point where you don't
want to be on a battlefield atthe age of 70 trying to corral
kittens.
Like at a certain point youhave to find a different way to
to have this adrenaline feedsomething.
So I just have such admirationfor her story and you could hear
it in her voice when she'stelling these stories how much

(01:01:53):
it means to her and howimportant it is.
I'd have ptsd she's seekingmore of it.

Well, and I would add to your thought, I think
you also have to be in shape,you know, based upon what she
described in terms of runningaround, hustling, moving,
needing to be able to protectherself, and things of that
nature.
I mean, not only do you have tobe street smart, you've got to
be physically adept to be ableto do what she was talking about

(01:02:18):
look, uh, golly's a little bitcrazy uh, plain and simple um,
and I've known her for a longtime and I can't I tell her that
all the time I, you know, Idon't pull any punches with her.

Tushar Saxena (01:02:31):
I was like you know, you've got to be a little
bit nuts to do what you do.
And look, she and I are roughlythe same age.
And you're right, you know it,let's're right, you know, let's
not pull any punches here.
Being in a war zone doesn'tmatter how physically fit you
are.
It takes a physical toll on youand especially if you're in it
for you know, as she said, she'sessentially been in a war zone

(01:02:51):
for the better portion of adecade.
You know that ain't easy onanybody.
You know even warriors have tostep out of that, have to step
out of that arena for a while,but she's essentially been in it
almost consistently for 10 plusyears.
That's not an easy thing to doand it takes a.
It takes a toll on your body,it takes a toll on your mind and
you were said it before.
The notion of PTSD, you knowwhat?

(01:03:12):
Maybe there are elements ofthat in there.
Right, because there have to beelements of that in there,
because you're correct to saythat she's a bit of an
adrenaline junkie in that senseand you know I think about this
notion of, like you know, moviesall the time.
I like to hearken back to moviesand whatnot and think about.
You know, there's a moviethat's out it came out a few
years ago with Rosamund Pike,about a foreign correspondent.

(01:03:35):
The movie is called A PrivateWar and how the journalist there
there it's a very famousjournalist.
I can't remember her name atthe moment, but she was one of
the most famous foreigncorrespondents who ended up
being killed in, uh, in syria.
Uh, she was.
You know, she was caught in abombing by.
She was caught in a bombing byby syrian forces and she felt it

(01:03:57):
was her duty to kind of tellthe stories of what was
happening to people.
And this is what Jessica does,right, she feels it's her
responsibility to relay thosestories and that is a real
burden in some senses.
Right, when you think about itis that you have this
unbelievable responsibility.
You see all this destructionaround you.
You see all these very human,human emotions and human stories

(01:04:21):
around you and it touches youand you feel a real
responsibility to relay that insome way, shape or form.
And she's right, the newsbusiness has changed and I've
seen it right, because I wasthere when we had a Moscow
bureau, we had a Japan bureau,we had a UK bureau, which we
still do but those have beenpared down.
Those have been pared down tojust being one foreign bureau

(01:04:43):
who takes care of basicallyeverything.
At this point, and that's thereal shame of it, that the
foreign correspondent, which hasbeen such a stalwart position
in so many newsrooms for so long, has now it's not becoming a
dinosaur, but it's becoming anafterthought, which is a real,
real shame.

Yeah, the news business has really become about
entertainment and opinion, moreabout transparency and stories,
and she's not making a milliondollars doing this, right.

Like she's out there which is crazy, right,
right, putting her life on theline, risking her life.
She's literally risking herlife.

That's exactly right , and she talked about it
herself.
Like at a certain point,something's got to give.
Because I'm not making amillion dollars out here, I'm
putting my life on the line andI'm making a living, but you're
also subjecting yourself to, asyou said, the physical and
mental wear and tear of being ina war zone in this particular
instance.
So this isn't for everybody,it's not for me, but I just have

(01:05:38):
such admiration for what shedoes and I'm really just, I'm
inspired by her story becauseyou could tell that she just
loves it and needs it, andthat's that's what you want out
of your profession.
It has to be a pure passion foryou to go and chase that dream.
She does not need to write abook.

She should just do it.
She should just do a movie onher life.

Jump right ahead.

She wants to write a book.
No, don't write a book.
You could write a screenplay onyour life.
It would be just as exciting.
Because the simple story shetold us on just to get out of
you know, just a simple story onhow to get out of some
situation in a square in Crimeawhen you're surrounded by seven
guys with machine guns you don'tthink that's harrowing.
That was harrowing when we'rejust listening to it.

That's right.
Why did I just picture theIdiot's Guide to Foreign
Correspondence by?

Jessica by.

Jessica Gahler.
How many times do?

you think they role-played that in her Boston
College graduate class, ExactlyOkay.

there are guys with machine guns all around you
.
Tell them it's your birthdayand Tell them it's your birthday
and tell their grandmothers tobe ashamed.

Right.
Their babushkas should beashamed of themselves.

You'll get out Well with that.
Hopefully, jessica will getback out there and she will
pursue all those things that shewants to be doing.
Jessica, thank you, thank you.
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Thanks again for joining us.
If this episode made you thinkof somebody who could be a great
guest, we'd love to hear fromyou.
Please reach out to us throughthe contact page of our website
at norongchoicescom.

(01:07:06):
While you're there, check outthe blog for a deeper look at
our takeaways from each episode.
You can also connect with us onsocial media.
We're on LinkedIn, instagram,facebook, youtube and X.
On behalf of Larry Shea, tusharSaxena and me, larry Samuels.
Thank you again for listening.
We'll be back next week withanother inspiring conversation.

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