December 14, 2025 • 17 mins
What happens when your generosity becomes the very thing that threatens your future?
In this 12 Days of Giving episode, I sit down with therapist and member of the NoBS Collective, Rachel Duncan, to unpack a story that honestly describes way too many people: late 50s, single, big heart, strong friend group, steady nonprofit job — and quietly terrified that retirement might not be possible because she gives so much away. Not to institutions. To people. To friends. To every GoFundMe, every “I saw this and thought of you” moment.
Rachel walks us through an amalgam of clients who live this reality: the friend who always picks up the tab, drops off the $50 candle, buys gifts nobody asked for, and then goes home worried about the future. We dig into where that pattern really starts — teenage years, money as social capital, using spending to feel “safe” in relationships — and how it gets locked in when nobody ever talks about money honestly.
We also talk about the shadow side of generosity: people who love to give but damn near refuse to receive. The discomfort of being on the other side of a big gift. The awkward “you didn’t have to do that” text. The pressure, the unspoken expectations, and the reality that a lot of us already have too much stuff and not enough real connection.
Then we flip the script. Rachel shows how her clients shift from “I have to buy everyone something” to “my presence actually is enough”. We go into handmade gifts, small creative expressions, experience-based giving, and, honestly, the power of just showing up. No performance. No price tag. Just you.
If you’re the generous one in your circle — the giver, the fixer, the one who quietly worries about money while still swiping your card — this episode is your wake-up call and your permission slip. You’re allowed to change how you give without changing who you are.
🎥 Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/CFiYwlaPibM
This is part of our 12 Days of Giving series (December 12–23), where every day we tackle the emotional, psychological, and financial side of money during the holidays. No fluff. No guilt trips. Just truth, tools, and stories that sound a lot like your life.
As always we ask you to comment, DM, whatever it takes to have a conversation to help you take the next step in your journey, reach out on any platform!
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DISCLOSURE: Awards and rankings by third parties are not indicative of future performance or client investment success. Past performance does not guarantee future results. All investment strategies carry profit/loss potential and cannot eliminate investment risks. Information discussed may not reflect current positions/recommendations. While believed accurate, Black Mammoth does not guarantee information accuracy. This broadcast is not a solicitation for securities transactions or personalized investment advice. Tax/estate planning information is general - consult professionals for specific situations. Full disclosures at www.blackmammoth.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stoy Hall (00:10):
Happy holidays.
Woo.
And we just had Rachel on, youguys saw her like for
Thanksgiving.
So apparently we're just gonnahave her on for all the
holidays.
It's gonna be our thing from nowforward.
Um, I'm moving
Rachel Duncan (00:22):
in.
I'm moving in.
Stoy Hall (00:23):
Just move on in, move on in.
You can see right over here bythe Christmas tree.
It's, I love it.
Um, but as everyone.
We know how these, these days gofor 12 days giving, being our
third season where we get totalk, talk about a topic, go
through some client's story fromour expert at hand, from our
collective, and then figure outand say at the end of the it
(00:43):
going like, Hey, either that'sme, I'm in this position, or
that's someone I know and I, andI care for that maybe this
episode can help'em, or theresources provided can help
them.
So without further ado, Rachel,it's your show.
It's your story.
I'm just here to guide it.
Rachel Duncan (00:58):
Wonderful.
Thanks for having me on.
Okay, so I'm a therapist.
So the story I'm gonna tell isan anonymized story that's
actually an amalgamation of somany clients I've worked with
that there, there's been somereal common themes that I'm
pulling from.
So the specifics are anonymizedand just know it's sort of a,
yeah, it's a combo of a bunch ofstories.
(01:18):
Okay, so one common thing thatcomes up with the clients I work
with, um, and we'll, we'll makethis, uh, this fictional person,
she is in her late fifties.
She is single, has a reallystrong friend group.
Um.
No kids, no spouse, uh, isactive in her community.
(01:39):
She does work, she works for anonprofit, so she makes a, a
steady income, but you know, nota huge one.
And, um, she, she comes to mydoor because she's actually
really worried about her future.
And namely the, the behaviorthat she is most concerned about
is how generous she is.
(02:00):
She's the kind of person whopicks up a sweater that is
beautiful for her best friend,or if there's a book club, you
know, she'll bring a littletrinket for everyone, even
though no one asked for that.
Um, if you know any GoFundMe,cause she sees on Facebook,
she's like, immediately 20bucks, 50 bucks, like easy.
Right.
Um, and what she's realizing,kind of picking up is she's been
(02:24):
doing this for a while andseeing that.
Well, she's not sure ifretirement is something she's
gonna be able to do, and shehasn't really given the, she
hadn't given that a ton ofthought.
Um, so she's a very socialperson, very generous, and she
loves giving.
Is it like, she finds it a, um,expression of her creativity, of
her connections with people.
(02:45):
Um, but the thing she's kind ofbeen picking up on is like.
I don't know if everyone's doingthis way, I'm doing it and, um,
I probably need more money, butI don't know how to stop this
and I don't really wanna stop.
That's the thing.
Like, I don't want to stop this.
I love it.
I love giving with noexpectation of return.
So super important, like veryvalues led.
(03:06):
Thing because when she haslooked on the internet, how do I
get better with money?
It's like, stop spending so muchmoney.
And she was like, well, that'snot advice I'm gonna take.
Um, so she is a very like,emotionally attuned person, so
that's why she came to afinancial therapist to try to
get help with this.
So that, that's setting thescene.
Do you want me to keep talking?
Stoy Hall (03:26):
That alright?
Yeah, I bet a lot of people arekind of in that.
My mother, um, was a, was agiver, right?
Yeah.
And if, if she would've made itto retirement age, I.
I would guarantee she'd be inthat same spot.
Right?
Rachel Duncan (03:39):
Oh, this really hits home.
Yeah.
I would love also to hear like,yeah, if you're like, oh wow,
that's, that's where my mom was.
I love that It
Stoy Hall (03:45):
does.
And the thing like for me on theother side, right?
Like since I'm a financialplanner and it's always a
balance with their clients to belike, yeah, you can give some,
but if you give too much, then.
We take from later.
Right?
And then it, it's all a balance.
So yeah, this one hits home.
This one definitely hits home.
Rachel Duncan (04:01):
Lovely, lovely.
Yeah.
So, okay, so she comes to me,she lays it all out.
It feels pretty hopeless.
She's like, well, I'm not, I'mtruly, I'm so committed to, um,
giving my money away andsupporting causes.
She wouldn't say giving my moneyaway.
She would say, I'm so committedto supporting causes.
I love giving gifts.
It's an important thing for me.
I feel like the responsiblething to do would.
(04:23):
To change that, but that wouldreally mean like changing who I
am inside.
So my approach is absolutely no,no pressure to spend less.
Right?
Um.
So I would really sit down inthe first few sessions and we
explored maybe a, I always startwith the current day before we
get into the past, the currentday.
What's a recent gift that yougave?
(04:43):
Tell me the whole story.
So she's telling a story abouthow she, um, let's say maybe
picked up a candle for a bestfriend that was the exact scent
that this friend loves.
And it was, you know, candlesare really expensive.
Like the good ones you guys get,you know, it's crept up.
This also used to be a cheaperthing, and now because of prices
going up and her wages haven'tgone up, like it used to be more
(05:07):
affordable to be able to dothese, like, um, here and there
things.
But she buys this candle, let'ssay.
It's like, it was like a$50candle and she just drops it by
her friend's house.
Just, she just loved that.
Right here, it's just, it's yourcent.
I know you've been looking forthis candle.
What happened was the, herfriend wrote back like, thank
you very much.
You didn't need to do that, butlike, you didn't need to do
(05:29):
that.
And, and her friend who's veryclose with her was like,
actually kind of pushed back alittle bit.
Like I.
I'm actually uncomfortable withthis gift and that put my client
in a really like, kind of aunbalanced place, right?
Like, whoa, oh, I don't expectanything return.
And the friend is like, I knowthat, but now I feel like, like,
(05:51):
do I need to give you somethingback?
Also, I'm just uncomfortablewith this.
Like, I'm not spending moneylike this.
I.
We've never talked about money,but I'm wondering if you, I know
what kind of job you have.
Let's say she works at alibrary.
You're a librarian.
I don't know if you can affordthis.
Right.
So it, it kind of came on theheels of a friend lovingly
pushing back like we are friendsthat.
(06:12):
Does not mean you have tomaintain it with these gifts,
even though that was not what myclient was feeling or
experiencing.
So she was kind of in like, it'sa bit of an existential crisis
because her friend group reallyis her family, right?
She doesn't have a lot of herown family.
So her friend group is very partof this, and this is like a long
standing habit that she's had.
So this was like, oh shoot, likeI didn't mean to make her
(06:32):
uncomfortable.
Then what do I do?
So our conversation is backingup and looking at.
What does generosity mean toyou?
Right?
What are the many ways we canfeel generous?
Have you received generosity?
Because here's the shadow sideof a client like this is, it's
really hard for them to receive.
(06:54):
So, okay, so we explore that alittle bit.
What's it like to receive and,and, and pulling up some, some
recent examples.
Um, and then as that starts toget more comfortable putting
herself in her friend's shoes,actually a little bit, what
would that be like to receive a,um, not only generous but maybe
expensive gift that maybedoesn't quite fit the occasion,
(07:15):
or it feels a little bit off?
How does that sit?
Right.
So we're just, all I'm doing isslowly.
Opening the field, looking atmore possibilities, looking at
different points of view, andum, and seeing where it goes.
I have no agenda in this, right?
Remember, I have no agenda.
Right.
So then we can start gettinginto the past.
Right.
What was gift giving like inyour family growing up?
(07:38):
Uh, what was your role in that?
What did you see of the grownupsaround you?
What was their generosity like?
And so, um, let's say in thisfictional client.
Let's say she was part of afamily that was very upwardly
mobile like, had come fromhumble beginnings.
Like her parents had come fromhumble beginnings, but they were
growing a business and actuallyhad like really changed classes,
(08:00):
right?
Living in a very differentneighborhood than they had grown
up in and participated in thingsthey hadn't participated in
before.
And when she turned 12, let'ssay, um, was given like a debit
card that she could really dowhatever she wanted with.
And, um.
It was never checked.
It was always just paid for, uh,so that she could have fun with
friends and buy things that shewants.
(08:21):
And so she started buying thingsfor friends as an adolescent.
So she became very right.
Immediate feedback, positivefeedback.
Like, dude, this girl's fun,right?
She's paying for pizza, she'sfilling up gas in people's cars.
Like she's a great time.
And so it really got concretizedthat her.
(08:42):
You know, being generous, notchecking the amount, like
actually gave her so much,right?
It really developed her friendgroup.
She really needed that at thetime, as all teenagers do.
That's like a huge focus, right?
So like, okay, now we see this,this link between spending and,
um, social capital, we could sayour social safety really
(09:02):
solidified, um, in those earlyyears.
And I love talking with clientsabout.
They're adolescents.
They don't think it's a time wetalk about enough, um, in
therapy, but particularly withfinances because it tends to be
the time where you start havinga little bit of your own money
and you're having moreindependence and some of those
early lessons, positive andnegative.
Really can kind of sit with us,because also we're not allowed
(09:25):
to talk about money.
So those habits, that, right,those habits that depe develop
like in your first job or, youknow, any of those things when
you're first independent, um,there seems to really be a
remnant of that throughoutadulthood if we don't look at
it.
So we expand on those storiesand I give a lot of, um,
validation and understanding.
(09:47):
Oh wow.
You know, um.
When you bought pizza foreveryone, when you filled up all
your friends tanks of gas, um,that must have felt so
empowering, right?
And to really sit with that andto really like, get into the
layer of what that did for thatperson and also what it took
away.
Could you just be a friend?
(10:08):
Could you receive generosity?
What kind of place did it putyour friends in?
Right?
Just like really open-endedquestions.
So.
In this process of like reallyexpanding some current examples
and then.
How that is mirrored in thoseearlier years.
Things just start moving y'all.
Like, this is what happens attherapy, right?
(10:28):
We start talking about the thingthat we haven't talked about
that has been, you know, maybethat's really been in our mind
or even in our subconscious andstuff, just starts moving and
this person starts realizing, I,I worked with several people in
the holiday season, right?
Where maybe they come to me inNovember, so it's like, okay, we
got a lot of.
I got a lot of data happeningright here.
Right.
And feeling those pressures,feeling the compulsion, oh,
(10:49):
maybe this isn't so much me,it's, it's me responding to, um,
the societal pressures toconsume, the societal pressures
to, uh, be generous uncorkedspending, um, as some clients
call it, and, and reallyrealizing, oh, I felt really
compel, I found, I found thescarf that my friend would love.
But you know what?
I actually walked past it'causeI was thinking about our
(11:09):
conversation.
Right.
It's like backing up, what doesfriendship really mean?
Are you also the kind of friendwho shows up?
Well, yeah.
How would you compare that tothe candle?
Is showing up more or lessimportant to the candle?
I mean, it's kind of a leadingquestion, but we know the
answer, right?
Because actually this person,without looking at it, has
weighed at the same.
But when we really look at it,what's more important, your
(11:32):
presence.
Or your presence.
Oh my God, that's what youshould call this.
What's more important?
Your presence or your presence?
Title.
Hello.
There it is.
So, um, and then, okay, the sortof idea though of expression, I
never want someone to pull backor feel restricted about this.
How else could you express,sorry, express your love for
somebody.
(11:52):
Um, so.
Many of my clients, this, this,uh, avatar I'm thinking
specifically starts getting backinto their craftiness.
Oh, I love, I love, um, makingsalad dressings.
Cool, right?
What if I give salad dressing tomy friends?
Okay, now we're talking.
Right?
And, and so what I love is, um,when we start recovering things,
(12:15):
we really love to do thatconsumerism.
Replaced with consuming, butactually the spirit was to make
something to express myself, toconnect something with somebody.
Um, so quite often my, my, myclients get into remaking
homemade gifts and then startingrealize, ah.
I can just, I can just be therefor someone.
I could just send a textmessage, um, maybe for the
(12:37):
holidays I'll do a homemadegift.
And it starts to rightsize alittle bit where, um, not only
the person is spending lessmoney, which is great.
That feels good.
Now we, now we can talk aboutthat.
Um, but is also like cheesy, butgetting to the heart of what it
is to be a person.
What, getting to the heart ofwhat's important in
relationships.
'cause that that is actuallywhat was going on in, in that
(12:59):
question.
So that's sort of.
That's, that's my holidaymessage.
Presence over presence.
Stoy Hall (13:06):
I think a lot of that has everything to do with the
cycle of humanity of where we'reat.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Um,'cause everyone think aboutthe old school presence, and I'm
talking about, yeah.
A hundred thousand years ago,right?
It wasn't going to buysomething, it was to make
something.
It was, yeah.
If I'm a sheep farmer, I'mgiving you milk or cheese,
right?
Those types of presents, which,which are different.
(13:28):
It's about you.
It's about living style.
It's not about, you know, I sawthis candle and it's frivolous
and I can give it to you.
It, it has something to do withmore, I better, only word I can
think of is more oomph.
Right.
You know what I mean?
It feels better.
It is more of a, just a, afeeling and to, to have your
clients go from like Yeah.
(13:48):
To, Hey, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm,maybe I make the Campbell maybe.
Mm-hmm.
It is salad dressing or whateverit is.
Mm-hmm.
I think if we get back to thatas society.
One.
Yeah, we're gonna save moremoney.
Right, obviously, but I thinkwe're gonna become closer.
That's exactly it.
That's what we're missing,
Rachel Duncan (14:06):
I think.
And, and what is it like toreceive a gift like that?
Like oh.
Like, I just feel so touched.
I'm a maker myself and, and alsoI'm not expecting that, you
know, I also, you know, there,there's also a, we all have too
much stuff really, you know, ata certain point.
Like, is this a burden?
I'm dropping off a thing now.
It's a thing they gotta dealwith that's gotta take rent in
their house.
And you know, I think we're alsolike really contending with the
(14:29):
stuff.
That we have.
And, um, you know, and that's,that's another expansion of,
okay, well if you do wanna givea gift, is it an experience
gift?
Is it a heartfelt letter?
Like we can really, we can startto shake it up to, um, not be so
much about the thing.
My mom was very attached to thething.
There needs to be a thing.
And I, I honor that.
If that's where you're at,great.
(14:50):
But I, I think too.
Also look at what it's like fromthe other point of view that we
all want less stuff.
We do.
We surely do.
We
Stoy Hall (14:57):
really do.
Rachel Duncan (14:58):
So it's a gift not to give a gift
Stoy Hall (15:00):
sometimes
Rachel Duncan (15:01):
we
Stoy Hall (15:01):
really do.
Rachel Duncan (15:01):
And my, my,
Stoy Hall (15:02):
yeah.
If I can't consume it shortly, Ireally, I really don't.
I don't, I don't need it.
I don't need it.
Oh
Rachel Duncan (15:07):
man.
Gimme a plate of cookies over acandle any day.
Yeah, correct.
Exactly.
Good
Stoy Hall (15:12):
lord.
We have enough candles anyway.
Rachel Duncan (15:14):
Yeah.
And in my friend group we usedto do little, little gifts at at
Christmas and at one point Ithink one of my friends was just
like, can we just stop doingthis?
I was like, yeah, I'll stop it.
We just stop.
We still get together likechange nothing.
It was like one less thing thatI felt like I had to do, save me
some money.
Just like can we just not justbe with each other?
(15:34):
Like that's what, let's just bewith each other.
And I think if your friendgroup, your family is, is
important to you.
Um.
You can suggest a shift up andit might feel uncomfortable.
Like absolutely there might bepushback.
Like I remember my siblings andI pitched to our mom, Hey, let's
do like a kinda more of a secretSanta than everyone give to
(15:55):
everybody.
'cause there's three of us.
And my mom said, you all can dothat.
I absolutely won't.
I must give a gift to all of mychildren.
I can understand that, but youknow, like we, you can propose
and let people think on it.
Like, Hey, what if we all did anexperience gift together instead
of stuff?
Um, or, Hey, I'm gonna change mygift giving this year.
I think the, uh.
(16:15):
Speaking of boundaries, whichwas what we talked about last
time.
You can say what you are goingto do.
You can't say what everyone elseis going to do.
Right.
But hey, I'm shifting how I'mgifting this year.
Just heads up, right?
Most people will be like, girl,go do it.
Do it girl.
Um, but that's okay.
You can try new things.
Stoy Hall (16:32):
Absolutely.
So everyone listening, we, weknow, you know someone like this
and most likely it is you.
'cause I'm the same way.
Love to give, uh, really hardfor me to receive.
Mm.
We want you to go through thisholiday season and maybe, maybe.
Change it up a little bit.
Maybe propose to change it up alittle bit and let us know.
Come back to the comments,engage with us, let us know how
that little shift, um, waspositive or negative, right?
(16:55):
Either way.
But, uh, definitely during thistime, just get together with
everyone.
Be with your loved ones.
If you can't call'em, dosomething, write a letter.
Uh, this is definitely a timewhere we all want to feel
appreciated regardless if wethink we don't.
Yeah, it is definitely that timeof the year where we, we truly
want to be, um, part of a, a, abigger group.
(17:16):
So again, Rachel, appreciateeverything you brought to the
table with, with your story andI can't wait for people to hear
it, but also engage with us andlet us know Yeah.
What they did differently year.
Rachel Duncan (17:26):
Yeah.
And your presence is presentenough, really.
Stoy Hall (17:30):
Yeah.
Happy holidays everybody.
Beautiful.
Happy holidays.
Woo.
And we just had Rachel on, youguys saw her like for
Thanksgiving.
So apparently we're just gonnahave her on for all the
holidays.
It's gonna be our thing from nowforward.
Um, I'm moving
Rachel Duncan (00:22):
in.
I'm moving in.
Stoy Hall (00:23):
Just move on in, move on in.
You can see right over here bythe Christmas tree.
It's, I love it.
Um, but as everyone.
We know how these, these days gofor 12 days giving, being our
third season where we get totalk, talk about a topic, go
through some client's story fromour expert at hand, from our
collective, and then figure outand say at the end of the it
(00:43):
going like, Hey, either that'sme, I'm in this position, or
that's someone I know and I, andI care for that maybe this
episode can help'em, or theresources provided can help
them.
So without further ado, Rachel,it's your show.
It's your story.
I'm just here to guide it.
Rachel Duncan (00:58):
Wonderful.
Thanks for having me on.
Okay, so I'm a therapist.
So the story I'm gonna tell isan anonymized story that's
actually an amalgamation of somany clients I've worked with
that there, there's been somereal common themes that I'm
pulling from.
So the specifics are anonymizedand just know it's sort of a,
yeah, it's a combo of a bunch ofstories.
(01:18):
Okay, so one common thing thatcomes up with the clients I work
with, um, and we'll, we'll makethis, uh, this fictional person,
she is in her late fifties.
She is single, has a reallystrong friend group.
Um.
No kids, no spouse, uh, isactive in her community.
(01:39):
She does work, she works for anonprofit, so she makes a, a
steady income, but you know, nota huge one.
And, um, she, she comes to mydoor because she's actually
really worried about her future.
And namely the, the behaviorthat she is most concerned about
is how generous she is.
(02:00):
She's the kind of person whopicks up a sweater that is
beautiful for her best friend,or if there's a book club, you
know, she'll bring a littletrinket for everyone, even
though no one asked for that.
Um, if you know any GoFundMe,cause she sees on Facebook,
she's like, immediately 20bucks, 50 bucks, like easy.
Right.
Um, and what she's realizing,kind of picking up is she's been
(02:24):
doing this for a while andseeing that.
Well, she's not sure ifretirement is something she's
gonna be able to do, and shehasn't really given the, she
hadn't given that a ton ofthought.
Um, so she's a very socialperson, very generous, and she
loves giving.
Is it like, she finds it a, um,expression of her creativity, of
her connections with people.
(02:45):
Um, but the thing she's kind ofbeen picking up on is like.
I don't know if everyone's doingthis way, I'm doing it and, um,
I probably need more money, butI don't know how to stop this
and I don't really wanna stop.
That's the thing.
Like, I don't want to stop this.
I love it.
I love giving with noexpectation of return.
So super important, like veryvalues led.
(03:06):
Thing because when she haslooked on the internet, how do I
get better with money?
It's like, stop spending so muchmoney.
And she was like, well, that'snot advice I'm gonna take.
Um, so she is a very like,emotionally attuned person, so
that's why she came to afinancial therapist to try to
get help with this.
So that, that's setting thescene.
Do you want me to keep talking?
Stoy Hall (03:26):
That alright?
Yeah, I bet a lot of people arekind of in that.
My mother, um, was a, was agiver, right?
Yeah.
And if, if she would've made itto retirement age, I.
I would guarantee she'd be inthat same spot.
Right?
Rachel Duncan (03:39):
Oh, this really hits home.
Yeah.
I would love also to hear like,yeah, if you're like, oh wow,
that's, that's where my mom was.
I love that It
Stoy Hall (03:45):
does.
And the thing like for me on theother side, right?
Like since I'm a financialplanner and it's always a
balance with their clients to belike, yeah, you can give some,
but if you give too much, then.
We take from later.
Right?
And then it, it's all a balance.
So yeah, this one hits home.
This one definitely hits home.
Rachel Duncan (04:01):
Lovely, lovely.
Yeah.
So, okay, so she comes to me,she lays it all out.
It feels pretty hopeless.
She's like, well, I'm not, I'mtruly, I'm so committed to, um,
giving my money away andsupporting causes.
She wouldn't say giving my moneyaway.
She would say, I'm so committedto supporting causes.
I love giving gifts.
It's an important thing for me.
I feel like the responsiblething to do would.
(04:23):
To change that, but that wouldreally mean like changing who I
am inside.
So my approach is absolutely no,no pressure to spend less.
Right?
Um.
So I would really sit down inthe first few sessions and we
explored maybe a, I always startwith the current day before we
get into the past, the currentday.
What's a recent gift that yougave?
(04:43):
Tell me the whole story.
So she's telling a story abouthow she, um, let's say maybe
picked up a candle for a bestfriend that was the exact scent
that this friend loves.
And it was, you know, candlesare really expensive.
Like the good ones you guys get,you know, it's crept up.
This also used to be a cheaperthing, and now because of prices
going up and her wages haven'tgone up, like it used to be more
(05:07):
affordable to be able to dothese, like, um, here and there
things.
But she buys this candle, let'ssay.
It's like, it was like a$50candle and she just drops it by
her friend's house.
Just, she just loved that.
Right here, it's just, it's yourcent.
I know you've been looking forthis candle.
What happened was the, herfriend wrote back like, thank
you very much.
You didn't need to do that, butlike, you didn't need to do
(05:29):
that.
And, and her friend who's veryclose with her was like,
actually kind of pushed back alittle bit.
Like I.
I'm actually uncomfortable withthis gift and that put my client
in a really like, kind of aunbalanced place, right?
Like, whoa, oh, I don't expectanything return.
And the friend is like, I knowthat, but now I feel like, like,
(05:51):
do I need to give you somethingback?
Also, I'm just uncomfortablewith this.
Like, I'm not spending moneylike this.
I.
We've never talked about money,but I'm wondering if you, I know
what kind of job you have.
Let's say she works at alibrary.
You're a librarian.
I don't know if you can affordthis.
Right.
So it, it kind of came on theheels of a friend lovingly
pushing back like we are friendsthat.
(06:12):
Does not mean you have tomaintain it with these gifts,
even though that was not what myclient was feeling or
experiencing.
So she was kind of in like, it'sa bit of an existential crisis
because her friend group reallyis her family, right?
She doesn't have a lot of herown family.
So her friend group is very partof this, and this is like a long
standing habit that she's had.
So this was like, oh shoot, likeI didn't mean to make her
(06:32):
uncomfortable.
Then what do I do?
So our conversation is backingup and looking at.
What does generosity mean toyou?
Right?
What are the many ways we canfeel generous?
Have you received generosity?
Because here's the shadow sideof a client like this is, it's
really hard for them to receive.
(06:54):
So, okay, so we explore that alittle bit.
What's it like to receive and,and, and pulling up some, some
recent examples.
Um, and then as that starts toget more comfortable putting
herself in her friend's shoes,actually a little bit, what
would that be like to receive a,um, not only generous but maybe
expensive gift that maybedoesn't quite fit the occasion,
(07:15):
or it feels a little bit off?
How does that sit?
Right.
So we're just, all I'm doing isslowly.
Opening the field, looking atmore possibilities, looking at
different points of view, andum, and seeing where it goes.
I have no agenda in this, right?
Remember, I have no agenda.
Right.
So then we can start gettinginto the past.
Right.
What was gift giving like inyour family growing up?
(07:38):
Uh, what was your role in that?
What did you see of the grownupsaround you?
What was their generosity like?
And so, um, let's say in thisfictional client.
Let's say she was part of afamily that was very upwardly
mobile like, had come fromhumble beginnings.
Like her parents had come fromhumble beginnings, but they were
growing a business and actuallyhad like really changed classes,
(08:00):
right?
Living in a very differentneighborhood than they had grown
up in and participated in thingsthey hadn't participated in
before.
And when she turned 12, let'ssay, um, was given like a debit
card that she could really dowhatever she wanted with.
And, um.
It was never checked.
It was always just paid for, uh,so that she could have fun with
friends and buy things that shewants.
(08:21):
And so she started buying thingsfor friends as an adolescent.
So she became very right.
Immediate feedback, positivefeedback.
Like, dude, this girl's fun,right?
She's paying for pizza, she'sfilling up gas in people's cars.
Like she's a great time.
And so it really got concretizedthat her.
(08:42):
You know, being generous, notchecking the amount, like
actually gave her so much,right?
It really developed her friendgroup.
She really needed that at thetime, as all teenagers do.
That's like a huge focus, right?
So like, okay, now we see this,this link between spending and,
um, social capital, we could sayour social safety really
(09:02):
solidified, um, in those earlyyears.
And I love talking with clientsabout.
They're adolescents.
They don't think it's a time wetalk about enough, um, in
therapy, but particularly withfinances because it tends to be
the time where you start havinga little bit of your own money
and you're having moreindependence and some of those
early lessons, positive andnegative.
Really can kind of sit with us,because also we're not allowed
(09:25):
to talk about money.
So those habits, that, right,those habits that depe develop
like in your first job or, youknow, any of those things when
you're first independent, um,there seems to really be a
remnant of that throughoutadulthood if we don't look at
it.
So we expand on those storiesand I give a lot of, um,
validation and understanding.
(09:47):
Oh wow.
You know, um.
When you bought pizza foreveryone, when you filled up all
your friends tanks of gas, um,that must have felt so
empowering, right?
And to really sit with that andto really like, get into the
layer of what that did for thatperson and also what it took
away.
Could you just be a friend?
(10:08):
Could you receive generosity?
What kind of place did it putyour friends in?
Right?
Just like really open-endedquestions.
So.
In this process of like reallyexpanding some current examples
and then.
How that is mirrored in thoseearlier years.
Things just start moving y'all.
Like, this is what happens attherapy, right?
(10:28):
We start talking about the thingthat we haven't talked about
that has been, you know, maybethat's really been in our mind
or even in our subconscious andstuff, just starts moving and
this person starts realizing, I,I worked with several people in
the holiday season, right?
Where maybe they come to me inNovember, so it's like, okay, we
got a lot of.
I got a lot of data happeningright here.
Right.
And feeling those pressures,feeling the compulsion, oh,
(10:49):
maybe this isn't so much me,it's, it's me responding to, um,
the societal pressures toconsume, the societal pressures
to, uh, be generous uncorkedspending, um, as some clients
call it, and, and reallyrealizing, oh, I felt really
compel, I found, I found thescarf that my friend would love.
But you know what?
I actually walked past it'causeI was thinking about our
(11:09):
conversation.
Right.
It's like backing up, what doesfriendship really mean?
Are you also the kind of friendwho shows up?
Well, yeah.
How would you compare that tothe candle?
Is showing up more or lessimportant to the candle?
I mean, it's kind of a leadingquestion, but we know the
answer, right?
Because actually this person,without looking at it, has
weighed at the same.
But when we really look at it,what's more important, your
(11:32):
presence.
Or your presence.
Oh my God, that's what youshould call this.
What's more important?
Your presence or your presence?
Title.
Hello.
There it is.
So, um, and then, okay, the sortof idea though of expression, I
never want someone to pull backor feel restricted about this.
How else could you express,sorry, express your love for
somebody.
(11:52):
Um, so.
Many of my clients, this, this,uh, avatar I'm thinking
specifically starts getting backinto their craftiness.
Oh, I love, I love, um, makingsalad dressings.
Cool, right?
What if I give salad dressing tomy friends?
Okay, now we're talking.
Right?
And, and so what I love is, um,when we start recovering things,
(12:15):
we really love to do thatconsumerism.
Replaced with consuming, butactually the spirit was to make
something to express myself, toconnect something with somebody.
Um, so quite often my, my, myclients get into remaking
homemade gifts and then startingrealize, ah.
I can just, I can just be therefor someone.
I could just send a textmessage, um, maybe for the
(12:37):
holidays I'll do a homemadegift.
And it starts to rightsize alittle bit where, um, not only
the person is spending lessmoney, which is great.
That feels good.
Now we, now we can talk aboutthat.
Um, but is also like cheesy, butgetting to the heart of what it
is to be a person.
What, getting to the heart ofwhat's important in
relationships.
'cause that that is actuallywhat was going on in, in that
(12:59):
question.
So that's sort of.
That's, that's my holidaymessage.
Presence over presence.
Stoy Hall (13:06):
I think a lot of that has everything to do with the
cycle of humanity of where we'reat.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Um,'cause everyone think aboutthe old school presence, and I'm
talking about, yeah.
A hundred thousand years ago,right?
It wasn't going to buysomething, it was to make
something.
It was, yeah.
If I'm a sheep farmer, I'mgiving you milk or cheese,
right?
Those types of presents, which,which are different.
(13:28):
It's about you.
It's about living style.
It's not about, you know, I sawthis candle and it's frivolous
and I can give it to you.
It, it has something to do withmore, I better, only word I can
think of is more oomph.
Right.
You know what I mean?
It feels better.
It is more of a, just a, afeeling and to, to have your
clients go from like Yeah.
(13:48):
To, Hey, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm,maybe I make the Campbell maybe.
Mm-hmm.
It is salad dressing or whateverit is.
Mm-hmm.
I think if we get back to thatas society.
One.
Yeah, we're gonna save moremoney.
Right, obviously, but I thinkwe're gonna become closer.
That's exactly it.
That's what we're missing,
Rachel Duncan (14:06):
I think.
And, and what is it like toreceive a gift like that?
Like oh.
Like, I just feel so touched.
I'm a maker myself and, and alsoI'm not expecting that, you
know, I also, you know, there,there's also a, we all have too
much stuff really, you know, ata certain point.
Like, is this a burden?
I'm dropping off a thing now.
It's a thing they gotta dealwith that's gotta take rent in
their house.
And you know, I think we're alsolike really contending with the
(14:29):
stuff.
That we have.
And, um, you know, and that's,that's another expansion of,
okay, well if you do wanna givea gift, is it an experience
gift?
Is it a heartfelt letter?
Like we can really, we can startto shake it up to, um, not be so
much about the thing.
My mom was very attached to thething.
There needs to be a thing.
And I, I honor that.
If that's where you're at,great.
(14:50):
But I, I think too.
Also look at what it's like fromthe other point of view that we
all want less stuff.
We do.
We surely do.
We
Stoy Hall (14:57):
really do.
Rachel Duncan (14:58):
So it's a gift not to give a gift
Stoy Hall (15:00):
sometimes
Rachel Duncan (15:01):
we
Stoy Hall (15:01):
really do.
Rachel Duncan (15:01):
And my, my,
Stoy Hall (15:02):
yeah.
If I can't consume it shortly, Ireally, I really don't.
I don't, I don't need it.
I don't need it.
Oh
Rachel Duncan (15:07):
man.
Gimme a plate of cookies over acandle any day.
Yeah, correct.
Exactly.
Good
Stoy Hall (15:12):
lord.
We have enough candles anyway.
Rachel Duncan (15:14):
Yeah.
And in my friend group we usedto do little, little gifts at at
Christmas and at one point Ithink one of my friends was just
like, can we just stop doingthis?
I was like, yeah, I'll stop it.
We just stop.
We still get together likechange nothing.
It was like one less thing thatI felt like I had to do, save me
some money.
Just like can we just not justbe with each other?
(15:34):
Like that's what, let's just bewith each other.
And I think if your friendgroup, your family is, is
important to you.
Um.
You can suggest a shift up andit might feel uncomfortable.
Like absolutely there might bepushback.
Like I remember my siblings andI pitched to our mom, Hey, let's
do like a kinda more of a secretSanta than everyone give to
(15:55):
everybody.
'cause there's three of us.
And my mom said, you all can dothat.
I absolutely won't.
I must give a gift to all of mychildren.
I can understand that, but youknow, like we, you can propose
and let people think on it.
Like, Hey, what if we all did anexperience gift together instead
of stuff?
Um, or, Hey, I'm gonna change mygift giving this year.
I think the, uh.
(16:15):
Speaking of boundaries, whichwas what we talked about last
time.
You can say what you are goingto do.
You can't say what everyone elseis going to do.
Right.
But hey, I'm shifting how I'mgifting this year.
Just heads up, right?
Most people will be like, girl,go do it.
Do it girl.
Um, but that's okay.
You can try new things.
Stoy Hall (16:32):
Absolutely.
So everyone listening, we, weknow, you know someone like this
and most likely it is you.
'cause I'm the same way.
Love to give, uh, really hardfor me to receive.
Mm.
We want you to go through thisholiday season and maybe, maybe.
Change it up a little bit.
Maybe propose to change it up alittle bit and let us know.
Come back to the comments,engage with us, let us know how
that little shift, um, waspositive or negative, right?
(16:55):
Either way.
But, uh, definitely during thistime, just get together with
everyone.
Be with your loved ones.
If you can't call'em, dosomething, write a letter.
Uh, this is definitely a timewhere we all want to feel
appreciated regardless if wethink we don't.
Yeah, it is definitely that timeof the year where we, we truly
want to be, um, part of a, a, abigger group.
(17:16):
So again, Rachel, appreciateeverything you brought to the
table with, with your story andI can't wait for people to hear
it, but also engage with us andlet us know Yeah.
What they did differently year.
Rachel Duncan (17:26):
Yeah.
And your presence is presentenough, really.
Stoy Hall (17:30):
Yeah.
Happy holidays everybody.
Beautiful.
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