December 18, 2025 • 21 mins
Most couples think they’re “broken” because they argue about money. The truth? You’re probably more normal than you realize—you’ve just never been taught how to talk about money without going to war.
In this 12 Days of Giving episode, I sit back down with financial therapist Ashley Quamme to walk through a real couple we’ll call Mark and Mary—late 30s, three kids, decent income, solid marriage… until money comes up. He’s the anxious saver, constantly bracing for the layoff that may never come. She’s the practical spender who wants to make memories with their kids and not live like everything is on fire. The money isn’t the problem. Their stories about money are.
ashley-2-2025
Ashley takes us into their backstory: Mark’s single-mom, count-every-penny upbringing and Mary’s “we’re fine, we don’t talk about money much” childhood. We break down how those early money memories hijack their adult arguments—why he feels panicked when they’re not maxing accounts, and why she feels controlled and judged when he questions holiday spending. None of this is “just numbers.” This is nervous systems, fear, and unspoken expectations running the show.
Then we get into the actual work: how Ashley helped them stop avoiding each other, set up structured money dates, and build rules of engagement so they’re not trying to solve their financial life at 9:30 p.m. half-asleep and pissed off. We talk about what to do when you hit a stalemate, why “we’ll talk about it later” usually means “never,” and how they finally landed on a savings target that calmed his anxiety without killing all joy for her.
This is not some dramatic, on-the-brink-of-divorce situation. This is a normal couple that refused to settle for “fine” and chose to do the work before things blew up. If you and your partner are mostly good—but money convos feel tense, defensive, or like the same fight on repeat—this episode is your mirror and your playbook.
🎥 Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/2mdLDYnOJDk
As always we ask you to comment, DM, whatever it takes to have a conversation to help you take the next step in your journey, reach out on any platform!
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stoy Hall (00:10):
Happy holidays, everyone back with another 12
days of giving with, you know,oh, you know her.
Not only has she had two thisyear, she's been in every single
year, uh, of our 12 days ingiving.
And today, just off camera, wewere talking about this and it's
like.
We rarely talk about like thenormal, the, the traditional,
just the everyday typesituations that we're dealing
(00:31):
with.
And so today Ashley's gonna giveus just the normal, are we all
normal?
Ashley Quamme (00:35):
Nah, yes, no, no.
But yes.
Stoy Hall (00:38):
No further do, Ashley, let's, uh, what is this
normal when we speak of.
Ashley Quamme (00:41):
I don't know.
It's a setting on the dryerstory, I guess, like Right.
I don't, I don't really know.
But yes, as we, so as we weretalking before, uh, you know,
and I was sharing, like, I feellike when I come on, I share
hard stuff, like deep, liketrauma fields.
Sad, like tr like I just feellike I always come with like
(01:01):
some.
Sad stuff.
I can't say bad words on here,like some sad stuff.
And so today, like, uh, mythought was is I would share
about the couple couples, but aspecific couple that might just
be like kind of your typicallike run of the mill quote
unquote normal couple, right?
(01:24):
Because I think that there arefar more of these than there
are, you know, the others wherethere is.
You know, extreme like tragedy,trauma, awful stuff.
So, yeah, that was kind of mythought today.
If, if you're good with it.
Stoy Hall (01:38):
No, it sounds great.
And I think it'll allow peopleto understand too, that a lot of
us think we're not normal,right?
And so I think going throughthis, we actually might realize
that we are normal.
A little more normal.
Right?
There's no normal, but you knowwhat I mean?
Like, we don't have all havethis tragedy stuff.
Like there are just some of usthat are running the mill normal
life.
And, uh, I think that's a greatpoint to be speaking about.
Ashley Quamme (01:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
You want me to jump into it?
Stoy Hall (02:00):
Jump right in.
Ashley Quamme (02:01):
Cool.
Awesome.
All right, so this, uh, thiscouple, let's call them Mark and
Mary.
Double M's.
That's easy for me to remember.
Uh, easy for me to remember.
So Mark and Mary are in theirlate thirties, um, late
thirties.
They've got three kids, uh, allin the elementary age.
Uh, so like.
(02:22):
Five to like 11 kind of agebracket.
Both dual professionals,although Mary has stepped back
and worked part-time, um, she,uh, is in the medical space as a
physical therapist, but steppedback and is working just super
part-time to play the mom role.
Uh, you know, do her otherpart-time job, which is not
(02:44):
really a part-time job playingmom.
Uh, and husband Mark in thiscase.
Um, he is in the engineer.
He's an engineer.
Uh, and they both collectivelymake pretty decent income.
I wouldn't say that they wouldbe what we classify as high
income earners, but you know,they make a, they make a good
(03:06):
living.
Uh, their needs are certainlycared for, um, and their wants
and they're able to save alittle bit, right?
Um, so they're not killing it,but they're doing, they're doing
pretty good.
And all in all, mark and Maryhave a great relationship.
Things are relatively.
Smooth, right?
As smooth as it can be withthree kids in that age bracket.
(03:28):
But all in all, like things arepretty smooth except for when
they talk about money.
Uh, and that is the area wherethey have a hard time finding
common ground on.
They have a hard time relatingjust understanding, and they
have a hard time keeping theiremotions in check when they go
(03:50):
to talk about it.
So, you know, I share Mark andMary's story here because I see
this a lot.
I see Mark and Mary in so manydifferent couples where things
are mostly good.
In other aspects of theirmarriage, but when they go to
talk about money, like somethingjust takes over and just
(04:11):
happens.
So Mark and Mary reached out towork with me because while all
the other areas of theirrelationship are great, like
this one wasn't, and it wasstarting to really take a toll
on things to where they werejust avoiding conversations and
almost operating and.
Silos when it came to makingfinancial decisions.
Um, and they had the awarenessto recognize like, this isn't
(04:32):
healthy.
Like we can't, we can't anddon't want to do this.
So they reached out to me towork with me, um, and to, you
know, try and figure out how canwe do this better.
Um, so off we went.
On an adventure into each oftheir own just individual, uh,
money stories into each of theirrelationships with money on an
individual, uh, on an individuallevel.
(04:53):
What we, what we found is thatMark is very vigilant and
anxious about money.
He's your classic, like, I wannasave everything.
I don't wanna spend anything.
Uh, you could say frugal andthat would probably be nice.
And so like Mark was, had a lotof anxiety over the fact that
they weren't maxing out 4 0 1Ks.
(05:15):
They weren't maxing out Roths,they weren't maxing out and
contributing as much as theycould to the kids'.
5 29 plans, and their savingswasn't out of place.
That he wanted, uh, numberswise, they were doing a little
bit, but it wasn't where hethought they could be.
And it made him really, reallyanxious.
(05:36):
Um, the type of work that he wasinvolved in, uh, you know, it's
pretty cutthroat.
Uh, and so he kind of feltanxious in like this loom.
Constantly just hanging over himof like, Hey, like I could be
let go.
Like, it's not uncommon.
And then, then we're in thissituation where, you know, I've
gotta find a job and how longwill that take?
(05:58):
And, you know, that kind ofcycle, Mary, uh, in doing her.
Individual history, we foundthat shocker.
Uh, she, she has a little bit ofthe opposite approach, uh, to,
to mark.
Um, you know, she is morecomfortable spending money.
Um, it doesn't give her anxiety.
She, I wouldn't say that she's aYOLO kind of girl, but like she
(06:22):
recognizes, Hey, we have threekids.
We're, you know, we should enjoythis time with them.
Like we should go and do familyoutings and do, you know, not
extravagant vacations, but likewe should go and make memories
and have experiences with themand that costs money and Oh
yeah.
So do Halloween costs.
Dos and, uh, so does Christmas.
(06:46):
And so, you know, do you knowall the other things right that
come up, uh, when it comes toraising and having kids?
And so, you know, she would justspend the money, uh, and, you
know, she felt like, and Markagreed, like it wasn't over the
top, it wasn't extravagant.
Um, for the most part it waslike within the needs kind of
(07:07):
bucket, but it was.
Probably still more.
And there wasn't alignment morethan anything.
There just wasn't alignment.
Mary just spent and didn'treally, I don't wanna say
consult, like she had to, butshe didn't have that
conversation with Mark around,Hey, Christmas is coming up.
How much do we want to spend onthe kids?
Uh, how much do we wanna spendon each kid?
(07:29):
How much do we wanna spend onfamily?
She just went and did it.
Uh, and so a lot of couplesoperate that way, right?
But, you know, for Mark, it kindof felt like a betrayal.
Um, and not just with Christmas,but with a lot of things.
Uh, but they couldn't talk aboutit story.
Like they just couldn't sit downand talk about it because.
Every time they did one and orboth got really defensive.
Some name calling may have beenmade a few, a few times.
(07:52):
Uh, and they just, they justcould never get on the same
page.
You know, in their words, theyfelt like they could never get
on the same page.
And so that's kind of thebackdrop to their story.
Let me pause.
Where do you want me to go?
Where do you want me to go withthe rest of the story?
Where should we, where should wego from here?
Stoy Hall (08:09):
When you had those conversations with them
individually, which ABabsolutely had to do, there was
no way around it for you in thatone.
Where did it lead to?
Where did, was there a pointthat when you were going on the
journey with them individually,that they could somewhat
pinpoint why they operate thatway with money?
Um, and potentially why theycouldn't have the conversation
with the other one because ofthat.
Ashley Quamme (08:30):
Yeah, so we were able to, so with Mark's back
history, it was pretty clearthat it was almost like a duh,
uh, you know, kind of, kind ofmoment.
It was pretty, it was prettyclear.
Um, he grew up in a, uh, with asingle mom where money.
Had to be paid attention to.
And there was risk there fornot, right?
Like utilities not being on, um,you know, having to go without
(08:54):
food.
And, and so while that neveractually happened, that never
actually happened.
There was a lot of just likecounting pennies, like just
really like paying attention tothings.
In contrast though, like when hewould visit with his dad, like
his dad, it wasn't that way.
Um, and he said he felt a littleangry and kind of resentful
towards his dad.
Like later on he realized.
Why he was kind of angry, uh,with his dad is because dad had,
(09:17):
you know, dad had gone on toremarry.
Mom did too, but it was a while,you know, and so thi this like
feeling of like, I have to,like, my mom has to count
pennies.
Like I hear her talking about,and like adding things up at the
grocery store when we go to makesure that we have, you know,
like that.
I don't want to do that.
I don't like that.
Um, and so for Mark, like it waspretty clear.
(09:37):
It was pretty easy.
Why do you save?
Why do you, you know, put moneyaside like for the future?
Why do you pay attention tomoney is because, you know,
there's consequences if youdon't.
So that was pretty easy, youknow, and Mark recognized that.
But here's the thing.
He also felt like it was a goodthing.
It's like, but this is a goodthing.
Like this is how you quote,unquote should be right with,
(09:57):
with money.
And so like, I'll leave Markkind of there.
With Mary, the path was a littlebit, it took a little bit to get
there.
She grew up in, you know, apretty, um, you know, uh, middle
class, uh, you know, family.
Both mom and dad were together.
Uh, mom stayed home.
Uh, dad worked, had a good job.
She had a sister.
(10:18):
Uh, and so like, you know,things were fine.
Um, she didn't remember any,like, arguing about money.
Uh, you know, occasionally,sometimes dad would get
frustrated that mom spent alittle bit too much at
Christmas, but like, you know,other than that, like she had a
much harder time getting towhat, um, what was at the root
(10:39):
of things for her.
Even though it was a littledifficult to get to the root of
things for her, what we wereable to, to do though is really
help her understand more aboutMark's position and hear her
talk about Hear Mark talk aboutit from a different angle, from
a different place, from adifferent perspective, and just
(10:59):
the impact on, you know, howthey go about making or.
Not making financial decisionslike jointly, how that brings up
a lot of that anxiety anduncertainty for him.
It's like he's constantly, hewas constantly still living in
that place, even though, youknow, he's like 30 years older,
(11:19):
uh, like emotionally, like hisbrain is still living in that
scarcity place.
Stoy Hall (11:24):
We find that, and I know we've talked about it
before, but I know we, we saythis a lot is when you, that
first money memory is what Icall it.
Whatever that event is,financially, our brains are
there.
Like that's emotionally wherewe're at.
And it, and it still happens toeveryone and all the
conversations we had, it alsokind of, um, molds you in your
life, right?
Someone who was very detailoriented in a stickler like
(11:47):
that.
Does not surprise me.
He's an engineer.
Like it does not at all in thosego hand in hand.
Um, so we've gotten that.
We've, we figured out wherethey're at.
How did you get them to cometogether and kind of move
forward with that?
Because it's not easy.
Those are, those are normal andcommon, but they're also on
both, they're oppositespectrums.
(12:07):
Right.
Uh, my wife and I are verysimilar to that.
She came from middle class.
I came from a single mother andit took us.
A long, long time to even dothat.
And we still have ts every nowand again.
Now granted, she works for menow and it can see it every day.
So it's a little different, butlike it's still that way.
So what brought them togetherand kind of where are they at
now with, with thatconversation?
Ashley Quamme (12:28):
Well, I broke out my magic wand.
Uh.
Yeah, sprinkled some fairy dust,uh, in the computer, uh, there
and poof, uh, they got better.
Um, so we started with kind ofwhat I was sharing actually with
Mary, really understanding morearound what was going on for
Mark.
Um, I'd like to say that wereally got to kind of the root
(12:49):
of, of Mary's.
You know, feelings, but wedidn't, and that's the reality.
You know, I'd like to come onand say, you know, like with all
clients, we always, you know,figure these things out.
But you know, I would be lying.
Like this is a very, when I saidthis is a very typical, like
normal, like sometimes thishappens.
So, but we were able to helpMary understand Mark in a
(13:10):
different way.
And it was helpful even thoughshe still disagreed with the
level or intensity of, you know,how much he wanted, you know, to
say.
But she was able to understandand that helped to shape some of
her emotional reaction, uh,which then in turn.
Decreased mark's, defensiveness,you know, over time.
(13:30):
Now some of the work that wereally did, you know, apart from
just that, that kind of sharingis helping them set up
consistent communication, uh,times, uh, meetings to get
together.
So you can call'em a money date,you can call it a money meeting,
you can call it whatever youwanna call it.
But to help them establish, youknow, a regular check-in and the
(13:51):
rules for that.
So what are we gonna talk about?
What is it gonna look like?
Um, how long is it gonna be,right?
Because we're gonna put a timecap on it and hey, guess what?
We're also not gonna do it atnine o'clock at night after the
kids go down when we're bothreally, really tired.
You know?
So we're gonna set ourselves upfor success because that was
also some of the problem.
(14:12):
They were trying to have theseconversations at night.
And I get it.
Like, you know, Clayton and Iare super busy, like with kids
travel sports.
I know you guys, you are on thesame boat.
Like, and so for us, importantconversations.
We can't do at night, uh,because I'm not a nice person.
When I'm cranky, uh, and tired,mostly it's me.
Um, hi, it's me, I'm theproblem.
(14:33):
Uh, and so, you know, helpingthem really understand like how
can we set you two up best forbeing able to have a healthy
conversation around this.
What are the rules?
What are the.
Protocols, what are we gonna doif we get to like a stalemate
here and we're not in agreement?
How are we gonna handle that?
Um, and are we gonna come backto it?
(14:54):
So a plan for coming back to it,even when, when we don't agree.
Because a lot of couples, theydisagree, they fight and then
they never come back to it.
And so there's never any likeresolution, uh, there.
They just keep.
Moving on.
Uh, and that's not healthy.
That's not healthy either.
Um, you know, so helping themkind of set them up and then
(15:16):
practicing, like I would helpthem practice.
They would do their meeting.
They, so they would come tosession, they would bring their
agenda items, what they wantedto talk about, and like, they
would do their meeting with me.
So that I could, you know, notwatch from like a creepy, like
weird kind of place, but like,if they started to, uh, derail
or get really emotional, like Icould intervene at the start,
(15:37):
right?
And help point out, Hey, this iswhen we would do this, this is
when you would wanna pause and,you know, really give them some
confidence, um, while stillhaving someone there to help
facilitate so that it's.
It's safe, right?
And then eventually, like theyspread their wings and they flew
off and you know, has everyconversation been perfect?
No.
(15:57):
But they are having theconversations and more often
than not, they're going okay.
And they're going pretty well.
And they're able to, you know,they've even been able to agree
on like, hey, this is our, theamount that we wanna have in
savings.
And right now, like, our focusis gonna be on getting, you
know, that savings to thisamount.
(16:18):
And, and I say that because we,you know, mark was able to
share, like that's actually whatis causing him so much anxiety
from like the job standpoint isthat.
If fluff hits the fan, like, we,like our savings is not there
and I really need that to be atthis number so that I can kind
of catch my breath.
So they were able to have thatconversation, identify that
(16:39):
number, and then create a plan.
Uh, but it took a while.
It took about 18 months.
Truth be told.
Um, you know, we just wrappedthings up.
About four months ago.
Um, and so they have not reachedout since.
And so knocking on wood that sofar, four months of money date
conversations are continuing togo well.
Stoy Hall (16:59):
Did they have a financial planner before you
guys met?
Ashley Quamme (17:03):
Oh, I love that you asked me that.
No, they did not.
So part of once we got to aplace where they were having
some money conversations andable to kind of have that, um, I
did recommend that theyconsider.
Working with an advisor theyhad, and this might be where, I
know it's not the typicaltradition or normal case, but
(17:26):
they did anticipate on Mark'sside, him being let, he was an
only child.
So him being left a prettydecent chunk of wealth.
That was an, like his dad hadalready said, like, this is
earmarked.
You know, so they did anticipatethat.
Now that could be decades anddecades, like down the road, who
knows?
Um, but.
Uh, you know, they, knowingthat, like I did say, Hey, you
(17:49):
may wanna consider working withan advisor.
They can help you with some ofthese money conversations and
explain things at a numberslevel.
And it doesn't have to be, youknow, where they're managing
your assets.
Because they had that myth thatfinancial advisors, it was only
like investments.
Um.
And I get it.
Uh, but you know, we were ableto kind of talk about who might
be a good fit, you know, forthem, what type of advisor.
(18:12):
And I know that they made somecontacts and they reached out.
And my hope is, is that theylanded with somebody.
That's awesome.
Stoy Hall (18:17):
And that's a really big point of it, of one, the
misnomer that it's financialadvisors only deal with it when
you have money.
That's a whole crazy.
Concept to me.
Uh, but I get it.
I, I understand that's howmedia's driven, society's
driven.
Just how the makeup of what wedo is when you lead with that,
right?
You're, you're kind ofmentioning, Hey, this might be a
great idea, um, besidesapprehension that they think
(18:39):
it's only about money.
Do you ever see a client ofyours go, well, why would a
planner and advisor help me withthese emotional.
Money, conversations.
Do they ever have pushback thereor not?
This is, by the way, listeners,this is for me personally
wanting to know, um, because I,sometimes I hear it, sometimes I
don't.
My clients don't.
But I just didn't know if yourun into that,
Ashley Quamme (19:00):
I don't know if I've ever heard a client frame
it that way.
Story where like the emotional,because I don't know if.
For the most part, clients stillsee that as emotional.
Like I think they probably, Icould be wrong.
I think for my, my perception Iguess is that clients still
mostly see it as numbers driven.
Um, and so I, yeah, I have notthat brought up.
(19:25):
I think that if couples aren'tagreeing on money or they need
help, I think that for the mostpart it's uh, Hey, this is a
numbers issue, not.
An emotional, not an emotional,like relat relational one.
So yeah, that'd be interesting.
I can't recall any though offthe top of my head.
Stoy Hall (19:42):
Okay.
I was just wondering.
That kind of just came to me toowith that question.
But yeah, it's, it goes to thepoint of what we are educating
about your content.
My content, everything that wedo is the emotions are there
people, it's not about thedollars.
It's not about the numbers.
It, it truly isn't.
At the end of the day, one plusone equals two, we can figure it
out.
The, the equation that we don'tknow is your emotions, your
behavior, your your pasttraumas, your your current
(20:05):
traumas.
Who knows?
And I really hope that peoplelistening today can one,
understand and realize that,Hey, you're, you're normal.
I'm normally having thoseconversations too, but just
maybe it's not about.
The actual dollar and the money,it, there's something else.
And there is, I can promise youthat there is something else
there, uh, causing this orcausing the, you know,
(20:26):
apprehension, whatever.
But I, I really, that's what Iwant them to take away from
today.
Is there anything else that youwant them to be like, you know
what, I am normal damn it, but Ido need help.
Ashley Quamme (20:35):
Yeah.
Um, so I always love thisquestion because I think I
answer it pretty similarly everytime that you don't have to wait
for problems.
For there to be problems, toreach out for help or support.
So, um, in fact, you know, thoseare, those are the clients that
tend to do far better are theones that proactively reach out
(20:56):
to say, Hey, like, look, thisarea of money, like, we don't
really talk about it so well,and like, it's not a huge.
You know, we, we, we get by likewe're fine, but like, we're also
just not satisfied with thingsjust being fine.
Uh, and we wanna make sure thatwe put things in place to where
it doesn't get worse.
Uh, over time.
It's like compound interest,right?
Uh, you know, emotion.
(21:16):
Yeah.
Those problems as they keepcalm, they compound over time
and not in the way that you wantit to, like it does in your
investments.
Um, that's not what we want.
Uh, so reach out.
Sooner than later.
Um, for help or for support.
Stoy Hall (21:31):
Absolutely.
So while you're listening tothis during the holiday season,
go ahead, reach out.
Ashley's here for you.
I'm here for you.
Our collectives here for you.
You can get all that informationsomewhere that the marketing
team will put.
It's cool.
Reach out to us so that way wecan help.
So, I appreciate you Ashley.
Have a happy holidays,listeners.
Happy holidays.
Uh, we'll be talking soon.
Happy holidays, everyone back with another 12
days of giving with, you know,oh, you know her.
Not only has she had two thisyear, she's been in every single
year, uh, of our 12 days ingiving.
And today, just off camera, wewere talking about this and it's
like.
We rarely talk about like thenormal, the, the traditional,
just the everyday typesituations that we're dealing
(00:31):
with.
And so today Ashley's gonna giveus just the normal, are we all
normal?
Ashley Quamme (00:35):
Nah, yes, no, no.
But yes.
Stoy Hall (00:38):
No further do, Ashley, let's, uh, what is this
normal when we speak of.
Ashley Quamme (00:41):
I don't know.
It's a setting on the dryerstory, I guess, like Right.
I don't, I don't really know.
But yes, as we, so as we weretalking before, uh, you know,
and I was sharing, like, I feellike when I come on, I share
hard stuff, like deep, liketrauma fields.
Sad, like tr like I just feellike I always come with like
(01:01):
some.
Sad stuff.
I can't say bad words on here,like some sad stuff.
And so today, like, uh, mythought was is I would share
about the couple couples, but aspecific couple that might just
be like kind of your typicallike run of the mill quote
unquote normal couple, right?
(01:24):
Because I think that there arefar more of these than there
are, you know, the others wherethere is.
You know, extreme like tragedy,trauma, awful stuff.
So, yeah, that was kind of mythought today.
If, if you're good with it.
Stoy Hall (01:38):
No, it sounds great.
And I think it'll allow peopleto understand too, that a lot of
us think we're not normal,right?
And so I think going throughthis, we actually might realize
that we are normal.
A little more normal.
Right?
There's no normal, but you knowwhat I mean?
Like, we don't have all havethis tragedy stuff.
Like there are just some of usthat are running the mill normal
life.
And, uh, I think that's a greatpoint to be speaking about.
Ashley Quamme (01:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
You want me to jump into it?
Stoy Hall (02:00):
Jump right in.
Ashley Quamme (02:01):
Cool.
Awesome.
All right, so this, uh, thiscouple, let's call them Mark and
Mary.
Double M's.
That's easy for me to remember.
Uh, easy for me to remember.
So Mark and Mary are in theirlate thirties, um, late
thirties.
They've got three kids, uh, allin the elementary age.
Uh, so like.
(02:22):
Five to like 11 kind of agebracket.
Both dual professionals,although Mary has stepped back
and worked part-time, um, she,uh, is in the medical space as a
physical therapist, but steppedback and is working just super
part-time to play the mom role.
Uh, you know, do her otherpart-time job, which is not
(02:44):
really a part-time job playingmom.
Uh, and husband Mark in thiscase.
Um, he is in the engineer.
He's an engineer.
Uh, and they both collectivelymake pretty decent income.
I wouldn't say that they wouldbe what we classify as high
income earners, but you know,they make a, they make a good
(03:06):
living.
Uh, their needs are certainlycared for, um, and their wants
and they're able to save alittle bit, right?
Um, so they're not killing it,but they're doing, they're doing
pretty good.
And all in all, mark and Maryhave a great relationship.
Things are relatively.
Smooth, right?
As smooth as it can be withthree kids in that age bracket.
(03:28):
But all in all, like things arepretty smooth except for when
they talk about money.
Uh, and that is the area wherethey have a hard time finding
common ground on.
They have a hard time relatingjust understanding, and they
have a hard time keeping theiremotions in check when they go
(03:50):
to talk about it.
So, you know, I share Mark andMary's story here because I see
this a lot.
I see Mark and Mary in so manydifferent couples where things
are mostly good.
In other aspects of theirmarriage, but when they go to
talk about money, like somethingjust takes over and just
(04:11):
happens.
So Mark and Mary reached out towork with me because while all
the other areas of theirrelationship are great, like
this one wasn't, and it wasstarting to really take a toll
on things to where they werejust avoiding conversations and
almost operating and.
Silos when it came to makingfinancial decisions.
Um, and they had the awarenessto recognize like, this isn't
(04:32):
healthy.
Like we can't, we can't anddon't want to do this.
So they reached out to me towork with me, um, and to, you
know, try and figure out how canwe do this better.
Um, so off we went.
On an adventure into each oftheir own just individual, uh,
money stories into each of theirrelationships with money on an
individual, uh, on an individuallevel.
(04:53):
What we, what we found is thatMark is very vigilant and
anxious about money.
He's your classic, like, I wannasave everything.
I don't wanna spend anything.
Uh, you could say frugal andthat would probably be nice.
And so like Mark was, had a lotof anxiety over the fact that
they weren't maxing out 4 0 1Ks.
(05:15):
They weren't maxing out Roths,they weren't maxing out and
contributing as much as theycould to the kids'.
5 29 plans, and their savingswasn't out of place.
That he wanted, uh, numberswise, they were doing a little
bit, but it wasn't where hethought they could be.
And it made him really, reallyanxious.
(05:36):
Um, the type of work that he wasinvolved in, uh, you know, it's
pretty cutthroat.
Uh, and so he kind of feltanxious in like this loom.
Constantly just hanging over himof like, Hey, like I could be
let go.
Like, it's not uncommon.
And then, then we're in thissituation where, you know, I've
gotta find a job and how longwill that take?
(05:58):
And, you know, that kind ofcycle, Mary, uh, in doing her.
Individual history, we foundthat shocker.
Uh, she, she has a little bit ofthe opposite approach, uh, to,
to mark.
Um, you know, she is morecomfortable spending money.
Um, it doesn't give her anxiety.
She, I wouldn't say that she's aYOLO kind of girl, but like she
(06:22):
recognizes, Hey, we have threekids.
We're, you know, we should enjoythis time with them.
Like we should go and do familyoutings and do, you know, not
extravagant vacations, but likewe should go and make memories
and have experiences with themand that costs money and Oh
yeah.
So do Halloween costs.
Dos and, uh, so does Christmas.
(06:46):
And so, you know, do you knowall the other things right that
come up, uh, when it comes toraising and having kids?
And so, you know, she would justspend the money, uh, and, you
know, she felt like, and Markagreed, like it wasn't over the
top, it wasn't extravagant.
Um, for the most part it waslike within the needs kind of
(07:07):
bucket, but it was.
Probably still more.
And there wasn't alignment morethan anything.
There just wasn't alignment.
Mary just spent and didn'treally, I don't wanna say
consult, like she had to, butshe didn't have that
conversation with Mark around,Hey, Christmas is coming up.
How much do we want to spend onthe kids?
Uh, how much do we wanna spendon each kid?
(07:29):
How much do we wanna spend onfamily?
She just went and did it.
Uh, and so a lot of couplesoperate that way, right?
But, you know, for Mark, it kindof felt like a betrayal.
Um, and not just with Christmas,but with a lot of things.
Uh, but they couldn't talk aboutit story.
Like they just couldn't sit downand talk about it because.
Every time they did one and orboth got really defensive.
Some name calling may have beenmade a few, a few times.
(07:52):
Uh, and they just, they justcould never get on the same
page.
You know, in their words, theyfelt like they could never get
on the same page.
And so that's kind of thebackdrop to their story.
Let me pause.
Where do you want me to go?
Where do you want me to go withthe rest of the story?
Where should we, where should wego from here?
Stoy Hall (08:09):
When you had those conversations with them
individually, which ABabsolutely had to do, there was
no way around it for you in thatone.
Where did it lead to?
Where did, was there a pointthat when you were going on the
journey with them individually,that they could somewhat
pinpoint why they operate thatway with money?
Um, and potentially why theycouldn't have the conversation
with the other one because ofthat.
Ashley Quamme (08:30):
Yeah, so we were able to, so with Mark's back
history, it was pretty clearthat it was almost like a duh,
uh, you know, kind of, kind ofmoment.
It was pretty, it was prettyclear.
Um, he grew up in a, uh, with asingle mom where money.
Had to be paid attention to.
And there was risk there fornot, right?
Like utilities not being on, um,you know, having to go without
(08:54):
food.
And, and so while that neveractually happened, that never
actually happened.
There was a lot of just likecounting pennies, like just
really like paying attention tothings.
In contrast though, like when hewould visit with his dad, like
his dad, it wasn't that way.
Um, and he said he felt a littleangry and kind of resentful
towards his dad.
Like later on he realized.
Why he was kind of angry, uh,with his dad is because dad had,
(09:17):
you know, dad had gone on toremarry.
Mom did too, but it was a while,you know, and so thi this like
feeling of like, I have to,like, my mom has to count
pennies.
Like I hear her talking about,and like adding things up at the
grocery store when we go to makesure that we have, you know,
like that.
I don't want to do that.
I don't like that.
Um, and so for Mark, like it waspretty clear.
(09:37):
It was pretty easy.
Why do you save?
Why do you, you know, put moneyaside like for the future?
Why do you pay attention tomoney is because, you know,
there's consequences if youdon't.
So that was pretty easy, youknow, and Mark recognized that.
But here's the thing.
He also felt like it was a goodthing.
It's like, but this is a goodthing.
Like this is how you quote,unquote should be right with,
(09:57):
with money.
And so like, I'll leave Markkind of there.
With Mary, the path was a littlebit, it took a little bit to get
there.
She grew up in, you know, apretty, um, you know, uh, middle
class, uh, you know, family.
Both mom and dad were together.
Uh, mom stayed home.
Uh, dad worked, had a good job.
She had a sister.
(10:18):
Uh, and so like, you know,things were fine.
Um, she didn't remember any,like, arguing about money.
Uh, you know, occasionally,sometimes dad would get
frustrated that mom spent alittle bit too much at
Christmas, but like, you know,other than that, like she had a
much harder time getting towhat, um, what was at the root
(10:39):
of things for her.
Even though it was a littledifficult to get to the root of
things for her, what we wereable to, to do though is really
help her understand more aboutMark's position and hear her
talk about Hear Mark talk aboutit from a different angle, from
a different place, from adifferent perspective, and just
(10:59):
the impact on, you know, howthey go about making or.
Not making financial decisionslike jointly, how that brings up
a lot of that anxiety anduncertainty for him.
It's like he's constantly, hewas constantly still living in
that place, even though, youknow, he's like 30 years older,
(11:19):
uh, like emotionally, like hisbrain is still living in that
scarcity place.
Stoy Hall (11:24):
We find that, and I know we've talked about it
before, but I know we, we saythis a lot is when you, that
first money memory is what Icall it.
Whatever that event is,financially, our brains are
there.
Like that's emotionally wherewe're at.
And it, and it still happens toeveryone and all the
conversations we had, it alsokind of, um, molds you in your
life, right?
Someone who was very detailoriented in a stickler like
(11:47):
that.
Does not surprise me.
He's an engineer.
Like it does not at all in thosego hand in hand.
Um, so we've gotten that.
We've, we figured out wherethey're at.
How did you get them to cometogether and kind of move
forward with that?
Because it's not easy.
Those are, those are normal andcommon, but they're also on
both, they're oppositespectrums.
(12:07):
Right.
Uh, my wife and I are verysimilar to that.
She came from middle class.
I came from a single mother andit took us.
A long, long time to even dothat.
And we still have ts every nowand again.
Now granted, she works for menow and it can see it every day.
So it's a little different, butlike it's still that way.
So what brought them togetherand kind of where are they at
now with, with thatconversation?
Ashley Quamme (12:28):
Well, I broke out my magic wand.
Uh.
Yeah, sprinkled some fairy dust,uh, in the computer, uh, there
and poof, uh, they got better.
Um, so we started with kind ofwhat I was sharing actually with
Mary, really understanding morearound what was going on for
Mark.
Um, I'd like to say that wereally got to kind of the root
(12:49):
of, of Mary's.
You know, feelings, but wedidn't, and that's the reality.
You know, I'd like to come onand say, you know, like with all
clients, we always, you know,figure these things out.
But you know, I would be lying.
Like this is a very, when I saidthis is a very typical, like
normal, like sometimes thishappens.
So, but we were able to helpMary understand Mark in a
(13:10):
different way.
And it was helpful even thoughshe still disagreed with the
level or intensity of, you know,how much he wanted, you know, to
say.
But she was able to understandand that helped to shape some of
her emotional reaction, uh,which then in turn.
Decreased mark's, defensiveness,you know, over time.
(13:30):
Now some of the work that wereally did, you know, apart from
just that, that kind of sharingis helping them set up
consistent communication, uh,times, uh, meetings to get
together.
So you can call'em a money date,you can call it a money meeting,
you can call it whatever youwanna call it.
But to help them establish, youknow, a regular check-in and the
(13:51):
rules for that.
So what are we gonna talk about?
What is it gonna look like?
Um, how long is it gonna be,right?
Because we're gonna put a timecap on it and hey, guess what?
We're also not gonna do it atnine o'clock at night after the
kids go down when we're bothreally, really tired.
You know?
So we're gonna set ourselves upfor success because that was
also some of the problem.
(14:12):
They were trying to have theseconversations at night.
And I get it.
Like, you know, Clayton and Iare super busy, like with kids
travel sports.
I know you guys, you are on thesame boat.
Like, and so for us, importantconversations.
We can't do at night, uh,because I'm not a nice person.
When I'm cranky, uh, and tired,mostly it's me.
Um, hi, it's me, I'm theproblem.
(14:33):
Uh, and so, you know, helpingthem really understand like how
can we set you two up best forbeing able to have a healthy
conversation around this.
What are the rules?
What are the.
Protocols, what are we gonna doif we get to like a stalemate
here and we're not in agreement?
How are we gonna handle that?
Um, and are we gonna come backto it?
(14:54):
So a plan for coming back to it,even when, when we don't agree.
Because a lot of couples, theydisagree, they fight and then
they never come back to it.
And so there's never any likeresolution, uh, there.
They just keep.
Moving on.
Uh, and that's not healthy.
That's not healthy either.
Um, you know, so helping themkind of set them up and then
(15:16):
practicing, like I would helpthem practice.
They would do their meeting.
They, so they would come tosession, they would bring their
agenda items, what they wantedto talk about, and like, they
would do their meeting with me.
So that I could, you know, notwatch from like a creepy, like
weird kind of place, but like,if they started to, uh, derail
or get really emotional, like Icould intervene at the start,
(15:37):
right?
And help point out, Hey, this iswhen we would do this, this is
when you would wanna pause and,you know, really give them some
confidence, um, while stillhaving someone there to help
facilitate so that it's.
It's safe, right?
And then eventually, like theyspread their wings and they flew
off and you know, has everyconversation been perfect?
No.
(15:57):
But they are having theconversations and more often
than not, they're going okay.
And they're going pretty well.
And they're able to, you know,they've even been able to agree
on like, hey, this is our, theamount that we wanna have in
savings.
And right now, like, our focusis gonna be on getting, you
know, that savings to thisamount.
(16:18):
And, and I say that because we,you know, mark was able to
share, like that's actually whatis causing him so much anxiety
from like the job standpoint isthat.
If fluff hits the fan, like, we,like our savings is not there
and I really need that to be atthis number so that I can kind
of catch my breath.
So they were able to have thatconversation, identify that
(16:39):
number, and then create a plan.
Uh, but it took a while.
It took about 18 months.
Truth be told.
Um, you know, we just wrappedthings up.
About four months ago.
Um, and so they have not reachedout since.
And so knocking on wood that sofar, four months of money date
conversations are continuing togo well.
Stoy Hall (16:59):
Did they have a financial planner before you
guys met?
Ashley Quamme (17:03):
Oh, I love that you asked me that.
No, they did not.
So part of once we got to aplace where they were having
some money conversations andable to kind of have that, um, I
did recommend that theyconsider.
Working with an advisor theyhad, and this might be where, I
know it's not the typicaltradition or normal case, but
(17:26):
they did anticipate on Mark'sside, him being let, he was an
only child.
So him being left a prettydecent chunk of wealth.
That was an, like his dad hadalready said, like, this is
earmarked.
You know, so they did anticipatethat.
Now that could be decades anddecades, like down the road, who
knows?
Um, but.
Uh, you know, they, knowingthat, like I did say, Hey, you
(17:49):
may wanna consider working withan advisor.
They can help you with some ofthese money conversations and
explain things at a numberslevel.
And it doesn't have to be, youknow, where they're managing
your assets.
Because they had that myth thatfinancial advisors, it was only
like investments.
Um.
And I get it.
Uh, but you know, we were ableto kind of talk about who might
be a good fit, you know, forthem, what type of advisor.
(18:12):
And I know that they made somecontacts and they reached out.
And my hope is, is that theylanded with somebody.
That's awesome.
Stoy Hall (18:17):
And that's a really big point of it, of one, the
misnomer that it's financialadvisors only deal with it when
you have money.
That's a whole crazy.
Concept to me.
Uh, but I get it.
I, I understand that's howmedia's driven, society's
driven.
Just how the makeup of what wedo is when you lead with that,
right?
You're, you're kind ofmentioning, Hey, this might be a
great idea, um, besidesapprehension that they think
(18:39):
it's only about money.
Do you ever see a client ofyours go, well, why would a
planner and advisor help me withthese emotional.
Money, conversations.
Do they ever have pushback thereor not?
This is, by the way, listeners,this is for me personally
wanting to know, um, because I,sometimes I hear it, sometimes I
don't.
My clients don't.
But I just didn't know if yourun into that,
Ashley Quamme (19:00):
I don't know if I've ever heard a client frame
it that way.
Story where like the emotional,because I don't know if.
For the most part, clients stillsee that as emotional.
Like I think they probably, Icould be wrong.
I think for my, my perception Iguess is that clients still
mostly see it as numbers driven.
Um, and so I, yeah, I have notthat brought up.
(19:25):
I think that if couples aren'tagreeing on money or they need
help, I think that for the mostpart it's uh, Hey, this is a
numbers issue, not.
An emotional, not an emotional,like relat relational one.
So yeah, that'd be interesting.
I can't recall any though offthe top of my head.
Stoy Hall (19:42):
Okay.
I was just wondering.
That kind of just came to me toowith that question.
But yeah, it's, it goes to thepoint of what we are educating
about your content.
My content, everything that wedo is the emotions are there
people, it's not about thedollars.
It's not about the numbers.
It, it truly isn't.
At the end of the day, one plusone equals two, we can figure it
out.
The, the equation that we don'tknow is your emotions, your
behavior, your your pasttraumas, your your current
(20:05):
traumas.
Who knows?
And I really hope that peoplelistening today can one,
understand and realize that,Hey, you're, you're normal.
I'm normally having thoseconversations too, but just
maybe it's not about.
The actual dollar and the money,it, there's something else.
And there is, I can promise youthat there is something else
there, uh, causing this orcausing the, you know,
(20:26):
apprehension, whatever.
But I, I really, that's what Iwant them to take away from
today.
Is there anything else that youwant them to be like, you know
what, I am normal damn it, but Ido need help.
Ashley Quamme (20:35):
Yeah.
Um, so I always love thisquestion because I think I
answer it pretty similarly everytime that you don't have to wait
for problems.
For there to be problems, toreach out for help or support.
So, um, in fact, you know, thoseare, those are the clients that
tend to do far better are theones that proactively reach out
(20:56):
to say, Hey, like, look, thisarea of money, like, we don't
really talk about it so well,and like, it's not a huge.
You know, we, we, we get by likewe're fine, but like, we're also
just not satisfied with thingsjust being fine.
Uh, and we wanna make sure thatwe put things in place to where
it doesn't get worse.
Uh, over time.
It's like compound interest,right?
Uh, you know, emotion.
(21:16):
Yeah.
Those problems as they keepcalm, they compound over time
and not in the way that you wantit to, like it does in your
investments.
Um, that's not what we want.
Uh, so reach out.
Sooner than later.
Um, for help or for support.
Stoy Hall (21:31):
Absolutely.
So while you're listening tothis during the holiday season,
go ahead, reach out.
Ashley's here for you.
I'm here for you.
Our collectives here for you.
You can get all that informationsomewhere that the marketing
team will put.
It's cool.
Reach out to us so that way wecan help.
So, I appreciate you Ashley.
Have a happy holidays,listeners.
Happy holidays.
Uh, we'll be talking soon.
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