June 4, 2025 • 32 mins
Money doesn't have to be cold, rigid, and intimidating. In this bold, thought-provoking episode, I sit down with financial therapist Rachel Duncan who's revolutionizing how we heal our relationship with cash through art and creativity. Ever felt like the financial industry left you behind? You're not alone.
Rachel reveals how her background as both a numbers person AND an artist led her to create a unique approach to financial therapy that actually works for creative, neurodivergent people. You'll discover why "abundance" might be the most meaningless buzzword in finance, how credit card points are a dangerous trap, and a powerful journaling exercise that will transform your relationship with money TODAY.
This isn't your boring financial advisor's podcast – this is real talk about the emotional side of money that the industry doesn't want you to hear.
Welcome to the No BS Wealth Podcast with Stoy Hall, your candid guide to financial clarity. In our third year, we're spicing things up by enhancing community ties and bringing you straight, no-fluff financial insights. Connect with us on NoBSWealthPodcast.com, and follow Stoy on social media for the latest episodes and expert discussions. Tune in, join the conversation, and transform your financial journey with us—no BS!
As always we ask you to comment, DM, whatever it takes to have a conversation to help you take the next step in your journey, reach out on any platform!
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DISCLOSURE: Awards and rankings by third parties are not indicative of future performance or client investment success. Past performance does not guarantee future results. All investment strategies carry profit/loss potential and cannot eliminate investment risks. Information discussed may not reflect current positions/recommendations. While believed accurate, Black Mammoth does not guarantee information accuracy. This broadcast is not a solicitation for securities transactions or personalized investment advice. Tax/estate planning information is general - consult professionals for specific situations. Full disclosures at www.blackmammoth.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stoy (00:00):
I know, I know.
Bringing on another therapist, Iknow, I know people.
We talk about it all the time.
The mindset, the money, thebudget, et cetera.
First of all, the ones I bringon like Ashley Quantum are
amazing.
So is Rachel Duncan.
She's gonna have a differentspin, a little bit of art.
How does art heal us?
That's what we're gonna gothrough today and.
(00:20):
What hills she likes to die on.
So without further ado, Rachel,welcome to the show and why
don't you download us with one,how you got to where you're at,
but also what the Money HealingClub Podcast is about and where
you see that going here in thefuture.
Rachel Duncan (00:35):
Thanks so much for having Mesto and.
I gotta say, we could all usemore therapists in our lives,
so, um, I, I hope I don't, uh,tip the skills too much, but
thank you.
So, yes, I am a financialtherapist and art therapist, and
I co-founded the Money HealingClub, which
is@moneyhealingclub.com.
And it's a, it's a.
Group membership where I teachboth the nuts and bolts of
(00:58):
personal finance to folks who'vebeen really avoiding it, as well
as get into sort of using ouremotions, working with our
emotions to get better withmoney instead of
compartmentalizing them orshoving them down.
And one of the ways I do that isthrough creative exercises.
So first it seems like what doart and money have to do with
each other?
Like, it seems like nothing butthe way I do it, we can really
(01:18):
explore the, um, sort of feltexperience of money because.
Money just is emotional.
It's actually the first line onmy website.
It just is emotional.
So let's work with it insteadof, uh, pushing it down.
Stoy (01:29):
What got you into that game?
Like what, I know you weren't alittle kid going, you know, a
financial therapist is the wayto go.
Right.
Although it's never a thing forus back then either.
So how did you get into thisworld?
Rachel Duncan (01:40):
Oh, well, it's, it's the tale of two passions.
Um, I always loved like countingmy pennies and getting odd jobs,
and there was a joke in myfamily that, you know, at age 11
I had more of my savings accountthan most members of my family.
Like, I just really likedwatching my money grow.
I liked working.
Um, I really liked.
You know, like, uh, making theroles of coins to take into the
(02:01):
bank account, memorizing my bankaccount number.
I just was interested in allthat stuff.
However, I also was always superinto the arts, music, visual
art, all of that.
So I had like, I was one ofthose like well-rounded kids.
I sort of was, was good at manythings.
It was really hard for me topick actually anything.
So it's like in science, I wassuper into math and science and
then, or sorry, in high school Iwas really into math and
(02:23):
science.
And then in college I actuallymajored in religion'cause I was
kind of going through aspiritual thing.
So, you know, it's just sort ofbeen all of these things I've
been like a bookkeeper and thenan art teacher and a preschool
teacher.
And then I went to grad schooland therapy.
So, or in art therapyspecifically, but I'm.
I dunno.
I was just always that, thatweirdo, that weirdo artist who
(02:43):
was like really comfortable withmoney and like understood
insurance and like I did a lotof HR work.
Like I understand, like I can, Ican write in legalese very
easily and then switch into likepoetry.
So in a lot of ways it kind oftormented me.
Because I real like what?
What's the thing?
It would actually be easier ifthere was just like one thing,
but I sort of loved all of it.
And in the pandemic I had toclose my private practice in art
(03:06):
therapy and there had been acouple of high profile articles
about financial therapy.
I think it was in the New YorkTimes and NPR maybe.
And so some friends forwardedsaid to me, like, two friends
sent me the same article, like Ithink this is you.
So this is like kind of deepinto 2020.
And I was like, what?
I didn't know I'd be allowed todo that.
'cause I was always the weirdtherapist who like, enjoyed
(03:27):
talking about billing rates andinsurance reimbursement and
career counseling and stuff likethat.
Um, but I was pretty muchdissuaded, you know, from that
there was like no pathway.
So when I heard that financialtherapy was a thing, I was like,
maybe I don't have to juggle allof this or choose nothing.
You know, maybe I could actuallycombine it.
So I got trained up.
It was super easy.
It was like, well, this isobviously it.
And ever since I said I'm afinancial therapist, everything
(03:48):
has clicked together and I don'tfeel like.
I feel like I am in a nicheinstead of being all spread out.
So, kind of a long answer, uh,to your question, but, um,
bringing in like the financialsort of coaching part came
really easily to me'cause it'slike what I've been doing
personally and my personalfinance.
Um, but then like, oh wow, howcan I bring in my therapy and my
(04:10):
art therapy training into thetopic of money?
And it's been such an excitingand creative and very healing
experience for both me and myclients.
Stoy (04:20):
It's amazing and I, I love your one, your passion.
Honestly, I'm a money guy.
I love money.
People have passion about money,but more along the lines of
using like what you know, yourexperience, what you're
comfortable with, who you are.
Yeah.
To help teach others.
And I really truly believe ourindustry has done a really,
really.
Really, really, really, really,really, really shitty job since
(04:42):
the creation of it, um, ofmeeting people where they're at
and connecting their passions,their joys, their experiences to
how they can learn money, themoney game, and become and get
ahead, right?
It's always been about, Hey,give us your money.
We'll put this in thisinvestment.
We'll get you a hundred thousandpercent return, whatever the
hell it is.
Right?
(05:02):
It's always been about like.
Getting money, return of money,getting money, return of money.
This is what you're supposed todo at this age, supposed to have
this much money at retirementand blah, blah, blah.
Rachel Duncan (05:11):
The thing is, well, and I'll add, and it's
just for these people.
Yes, right?
These people who look like us,which tends to be the white guys
who you know, and the boomers.
And so it's like a lot of ushave just simply felt left out.
Also, like I was told when Ihad, like I was so proud, I'd
saved a thousand dollars.
I was like 24.
I walked into a bank, what do Ido with my money?
And I was told I don't haveenough money to do anything with
(05:32):
my money.
And it was such, I think back onthat time, what a missed
opportunity for that person tohave a conversation with me.
So I shut up about it for thenext eight years.
Like, well, clearly I don't haveenough money to get any help
with this.
You know?
And I mean, it's such adisservice, like we're so many
folks are just left out.
I feel like, oh, that's not mything.
Especially, I work with a lot offolks who are creative,
(05:54):
neurodivergent all this stuff.
Like, oh, I, I'm the one in myfamily who's quote irresponsible
with money.
And then that like badge stayswith you.
And then how are.
We all have to interact withmoney.
So it's so unfair to say, wellthat's not for me.
This is one of these topics.
We, we just don't have thatluxury of saying, that's not for
me.
'cause we all have to dosomething with our money.
Stoy (06:13):
We do.
And we've been somisappropriated misled because
we haven't had the diversity inindustry.
We just haven't, I wrote anarticle for an inves or
investment news, sorry aboutDEI, and it's been blown up and
in my community I've gottenattacked.
The old white advisors, ofcourse, right?
I mean, who, who else was gonnacome at me?
(06:33):
And their whole thing is like,well, di really doesn't do
anything, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And I'm like, this is the simplefact.
And, and they, there's like fouror five of'em have responded
publicly that had said, I onlywant to hire someone based upon
their performance, their merit,and all that stuff.
And I said in my article andsubsequently.
(06:53):
Yes, I'm a, I'm a former collegeathlete, right?
I played football.
I understand performance,competitiveness, and merit.
We all need to have merit.
You can't just go offwilly-nilly and do this,
however, you can't get into thegame to even show your merit.
Right now, there is advisors andpeople in other industries and
et cetera that are not evenallowed to get into the game,
(07:15):
let alone the training or thepractice for the game to show
that they have the merit andthey can perform.
And that's the problem.
And people with money onlyusually truly, really wanna work
with people that are like them.
Whether that's, you know, theyphysically look, look like them,
sound like them, or believe inthe things they believe in.
Tell me if this is true, but I'mpretty sure like the 80% of the
(07:38):
old white dudes that areadvisors don't make up 80% of
this country.
Rachel Duncan (07:43):
Absolutely not.
So
Stoy (07:44):
what are we really doing?
Rachel Duncan (07:46):
And I've had so many clients tell me when I've
asked them like, oh, why did youuse me like.
You seemed nice.
You seemed like a warm person.
Not like just nice, but like youactually seemed like someone who
I could have a kind conversationwith about money.
You looked non-judgmental.
I had recently had a memberwho's a person of color say, you
look like you're not racist.
And, and this person said, I hadbeen looking for someone in
(08:06):
finance who was a woman of colorand actually couldn't find them.
And then I saw I am a whiteperson and said like, well,
she'll do.
But I really appreciated thatlike my branding and it showed
and my.
Authenticity and who I am and mycharacter in there is that like
I'm gonna pre be a person whocan have tough conversations.
I'm a person who has a wide andaccepting personality also, that
(08:28):
I'm just kind, I bring a lot ofhumor into my work.
It's very light.
It's.
Fun as well as deep andemotional.
And there's a lot of folks whoneed that, where the idea of
sitting down and talking tosomeone about money is like, I'd
rather put pins in my eyes and Itry to, I do my best to, to make
the vibes good.
So like that's a lot of thefeedback I get is like, your
(08:48):
vibes seem good.
Stoy (08:49):
Well, and I've um, I've done a bunch of studying and
data on this both from just.
Out there and asking people,because it comes down to two,
there's two types of people inthis world I have found, and
only one type of person I allowon this podcast anyway.
But it is, there's two types ofpeople.
You either care about people oryou care about money.
That's, it is as simple as that.
(09:10):
And some people are like, well,I, I do both.
You can, you can care aboutpeople and still make good
money.
Yeah.
However, if you only focus onmoney, you're not taking care of
people.
There is no overlap to that isliterally truly one or the
other, and that's what peoplesee out of you.
That's what I felt.
That's what I see, right, isbecause you care about people.
You're not sitting here going,man, I, you know, I just wanna
(09:32):
make a million dollars thisyear, or whatever number may be
off of people.
No, I wanna help as many peopleas I can with what I'm good at.
Yes, they have to pay for that.
But it's not because that's whatI'm wanting to do.
And so that's one of the hillsthat I will die on as well, is
that there's only two people inthis world and there's no, in my
opinion, there's no room forpeople that only care about
(09:53):
money, and that's one of myhills.
So what is one of your hillsthat you will die on?
Rachel Duncan (09:59):
Okay, my pet peeve is the word abundance.
I like that.
God, it is thrown around in myaudiences so much.
And my pet peeve is that it'snot that I, I don't agree with
abundance.
It's great.
But what are we saying?
What are you saying when I justwanna manifest abundance?
So, you know, I tend to workwith a lot of women,
(10:21):
millennials.
That's very much like the lingothat we use.
And I, there's a couple things.
I feel it's just not specificenough.
Right.
Are you talking about havingmore income?
What income level?
Like I kind of push folks to alittle more specificity and, and
I think the word, you know,relates to kind of like, Hey, I
need to shift my mindset to bemore open to things.
(10:42):
I'm all about that.
That's great.
The, the thing that, the layerof the word abundance that I
don't love is I hear, I wannahave so much money, I don't have
to think about money anymore.
It was like, are we talkingabout having your safety and
basic needs met first and beingable to have like a, a, a
lifestyle that you really enjoy?
So then we need to get a lotmore specific about what that
(11:05):
means and from both the numbersand what that lifestyle looks
like.
And also, guess what, the moremoney you have actually, the
more time you have to spend withit.
Now, granted, yes.
You might be at a point where I,I'd love to not worry about
where my rent check is comingfrom.
Absolutely.
I want you to not have to worryabout that anymore.
But what's interesting is themore wealth we gain, actually
(11:25):
the more time you have to spendwith it.
It, it's not less.
So I kind of feel like there's alittle bit of like, I'd love to
have so much money, I can reallyavoid it.
And that's just not, that's notreal.
So I, I just feel like I, I lovethe intention of it and the
mindset, and I wanna acceptmoney.
Especially for folks who've beenmaybe chronically underearning
or folks who've beenmarginalized have never received
(11:46):
much money.
Totally.
But abundance just doesn't sayenough.
It feels too magical to me.
And money's not magical.
It's just not magical.
So I don't know.
What do you think that that's,that's, that's my hill.
Stoy (12:00):
I could not agree more really.
One, I loathe money.
I really wish we didn't have amoney system.
The whole wealth, I, I wish itwasn't here.
Really do.
'cause it just creates just moreissues, terrible people, et
cetera.
When people say, you know, Idon't wanna outlive in the
scarcity mindset versusabundance mindset, those types
of things.
I mean, I've used them myselftoo.
But to the, the credit of whatyou are talking about, majority
(12:23):
of people don't know.
What living with money is likebecause of two reasons.
One, they, their family has havenever had it.
They've never learned it, it'snever been taught.
It's not in social media.
Two, because those that aretruly wealthy and they, they
don't worry about it.
And yes, those listening airquotes, those are air quotes.
(12:43):
Air quotes, is they show thatthey don't care and they don't
worry about it and they don'thave to think about it.
Right.
That's what they show.
But inherently, every ultrawealthy person I know has more
anxiety and more troublesomewith their money than someone
who's living paycheck topaycheck because those people
(13:04):
are working hard and they knowexactly what's going on, and
they try to relax the ones thathave the most money.
Are always doing something.
There's always this next thing.
There is this, there is that,there is this, and then it
starts growing and growing andgrowing and now you have 50
different things in 50 differentplaces.
And yeah, you might have a teamthat you hire and stuff to deal
with it, but you have so muchmore going on because.
(13:28):
You have to have so much moregoing on that it creates this
whole different lifestyle thatthose that are living paycheck
to paycheck, wish they just hadenough to get there.
Truly don't understand that, andI think there's a happy medium.
I really do that.
We need to get people too, butwe need them to be real about
what that is.
We need them to be real withwhat they want.
(13:50):
How they perceive it, incomelevel, the things that you just
talked about, but also we needthe, the others to be more
transparent about actually howlife is going and how, you know,
unorganized they feel and allthose things too.
Because ultimately across theboard, we all feel very much the
same.
It's just a different set ofissues in circumstances.
(14:10):
And I know a lot of people aregonna be like, yeah, well I wish
I had those circumstances in ahundred million dollars.
Yes, this is true.
We all do, but, but you don't.
And how realistic is you gettinga hundred million dollars based
upon where you're born, whatyour degree is, where you're at?
It isn't.
So what is for you?
And I think that goes back towhat you're talking about of
(14:31):
what income level, what are yourgoals, what are your, what are
your things you want?
Because there's only a trulyrealistic number that you can
get to.
Without it fundamentallychanging who you are and going
to the, I care more about moneyand less about people type
situation.
Rachel Duncan (14:44):
And I feel it leads to a really fruitful
conversation about lifestyleinflation, lifestyle creep.
And you know, what I see is alot of folks I work with are
underearning.
Like, yes, you do absolutelyneed more money, right?
To get to a point where you'vegot some savings where you can
pay for your medical, right?
Like, so I do, I kind of seethis graph going where, okay, we
need more money.
(15:06):
For your lifestyle.
And then at a certain pointthough, we need to uncouple your
income from your livingexpenses.
Now, where that point is, isdifferent for everybody and that
point has gotten higher andhigher over the years.
And I would say that's kind ofwhere we're talking about more
of this like.
This comfortable level ofhappiness, right?
Wherever that is, and now Iuncouple it where the amount of
(15:27):
money I make has no relation towhat I am spending on my life.
Because that gap, the more I canincrease that gap between my
income and expenses, that iswhere true wealth happens.
That can't happen till a certainpoint.
Where you might be kind ofspending what you're making as
you make more to be able toafford a good life and also
start to save and things likethat so that that can take a
(15:49):
while.
But then there's that toughconversation because we call it
lifestyle creep for a reason.
It sneaks up out of nowhereabout your wants becoming your
needs, and it's a creepy sort ofinsidious thing that comes up
over life.
I have worked with folks whomake multiple six figures and
live.
Paycheck to paycheck because ofthe lifestyle creep.
(16:11):
So there's, you know, I do thinkit's like, okay, let's back up a
little bit.
It's, it's hard to deflate yourlifestyle.
I will say it's possible, butthat's hard.
But if you can kind of look tothe look ahead.
Oh, okay.
At that income level, I thinkwe're good.
I wanna say that is in my headwhat my salary is, or my
spendable my, you know, themoney I can spend.
And anything above that is, Ihave a plan, right?
(16:32):
And I've talked to an advisor orwhatever, and I'm putting money
in, into that.
So, you know, that's a littlebit of like, let's get a little
more specific because hey, ifyou don't watch it, all that
money you're gonna make, youwill spend, you just will spend
if you don't have some kind ofplan for that.
Stoy (16:47):
And that's really the.
The hardest thing for people isif they see it, they will spend
it.
And there's one thing that we dowithin someone's budget
allocation that is, isdifferent.
I, I can't wait to see one yourreaction, but you get your
opinion on this too.
Tell me.
'cause there's really two thingsthat I do for our budget, but
this one specifically is wecreate a new line item and we
(17:09):
call it fund money.
Rachel Duncan (17:10):
Oh yes.
Stoy (17:10):
This line item,
Rachel Duncan (17:11):
I have a tab in my spreadsheet called fund
money.
Love it.
Same line.
Yes.
Stoy (17:15):
Love it.
Um, this fund money amount,obviously don't make it three,
four,$5,000, right?
It should just be 20, 50, ahundred dollars.
Whatever fits your budget thatyou literally can go burn if you
want to go do whatever you wantwith it.
I don't care if you cut it upinto a million pieces.
Please don't.
I feel like there's better uses,but that's what it needs to be
(17:35):
for because we are humans.
We have this impulse, we havethis, you know, retail therapy.
We have this thing that when webuy something, it makes us feel
good at that moment, and youhave to be able to do so.
If you build that in, then it,that has that flexibility built
in.
You're not gonna go try to pullit from somewhere else.
And then when you do that andyou go over budget somewhere
else, it, then it starts tospiral.
(17:57):
But if you have this fund money,it allows you, gives you that
ability to go spend.
However you want.
Rachel Duncan (18:03):
Because we have, think about like we're sort of
this vessel with all of thisstress, and it's like the more
you tell yourself, no, no, no,no, no, then you're gonna break
out of that and do somethingpotentially really destructive.
So having a fun money set aside,it's like a little pressure
valve to release.
So impulse spending is thenumber one issue.
My clients, my club members cometo me with, they really feel
(18:25):
like, they feel out of controlwith it.
Um, they dunno where theirmoney's going.
It is, I see it, I buy it.
And they really have a ton ofshame around it.
They often have, a lot of myfolks are millennials, so
they've got these boomer parentswho, oh, it's because of all
your lattes.
And so there's also likeinter-family, you know, fighting
and things like that.
But I, I'm all about thatbecause if we just restrict,
(18:45):
restrict, restrict, guess what?
It stimulates the addictioncycle.
And it mimics the diet cycle,the addiction cycle, all of this
stuff.
So this is a framework I I teacha lot is that the, I'm putting
in air quotes, relapse, you knowthe fuck it moment that everyone
describes it the same way, thefuck it moment.
I'm less interested in the fuckit moment.
I'm more interested what wasgoing on before that.
(19:06):
Right.
Oh, I was like real, I had afight with my parents or I was
like, I spent all week ingetting this whole thing
organized, or I really toldmyself I wasn't gonna eat out
this month.
Right.
This like super restrictive,unrealistic, like denial and
restriction.
And then guess what?
I blinked out and apparently Ibought a ticket to Paris, right?
And, and so.
Actually, the more we are awareof this cycle, how human it is,
(19:29):
the cycle gets less and lessdramatic every time we go around
it.
Actually, one little hack Ilove, you can share this with
your clients.
I love pre-purchasing a giftcard.
So it's like, okay, this is myfun money.
It's a, you know, target orSephora or whatever it is.
Buy yourself a gift card.
You've spent it already, andthen it's really fun.
Then you make a plan for it.
(19:50):
So I say plan for the impulse,which kind of seems like, uh,
you know, a contradiction interms, but like, and you enjoy
it so much more.
I got a hundred bucks on thisthing, I'm just gonna.
Go for it, right?
It's already spent.
You have that great time, rightthere is kind of a ceiling on
it, and then people end upgamifying it, which is really
fun.
And for folks, I mean, I thinkthis is true for a lot of folks,
(20:11):
but especially those with A DHD,the gamification really works.
What's the best stuff I can getfor under this threshold?
That's the dopamine working,that's the thrill of the hunt.
And it's a much more satisfyingexperience than like, oh, just
little impulse.
Spending here and there, andthen I feel shitty afterwards.
Like if you plan for thatimpulse, if you prepurchase it,
it can actually feel so muchbetter and it starts calming the
(20:34):
desire
Stoy (20:36):
and then it puts everything else into line.
It really does.
Like I, it really does.
Once we implement it, I.
People actually, like we areable to reduce overall budgets
because of it.
And I'm not talking about theoverage of the budget, like I'm
talking about our budget linethat we set.
Even though they go over, we'reable to reduce that because of
that.
Right?
Um, it takes a lot of those, Idon't wanna say impulses from
(20:57):
everything else, but it takesaway that like, I really needed
that, or I really want that, or.
I, I deserve that.
Right?
Even within that budget, it justtakes kind of all of that away
and allows them to be free.
And ultimately that's what whatI really want from clients, and
I know you do too, is the, Icall it cashflow, flexibility,
the ability to have movement andflexibility within your money to
(21:21):
adapt to those cycles becausethose are real.
This is, no one on this planetthat I know anyways is so rigid
with their budget that everymonth is exact same thing.
They feel the same.
You know the weather's the same.
Everything's the same.
Those
Rachel Duncan (21:35):
people don't come to
Stoy (21:36):
us Doy, I think they're out there and they don't seek
help.
Exactly.
It's just not out there.
So you have to have thatflexibility and I really believe
that that's a key point too.
So,
Rachel Duncan (21:44):
yeah.
And because it dispels shame, Ithink that's the big thing.
Right?
Especially if a lot of my folkshave never talked with any adult
about their money.
Like, maybe other than somefights with their parents, I'm
like the first one.
So to, to give that kind ofallowance, like, of course you
need some fun money.
Oh my God, now I can breathe.
I can be a person.
I could like go spend a hundreddollars on yarn if I want to.
(22:05):
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
Do you, do you, man, like I ammore concerned about how you
feel about you than what I feelabout you, you know?
Stoy (22:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Alright.
What's another hill?
Rachel Duncan (22:17):
Well, this's the more practical side, not less
therapy side.
It's just that people gotta getoff the whole points thing.
Credit card points just aren'tworth it unless you are in the
pay it off in full every monthclub.
The points are a gamificationagain, but towards really
negative habits.
You know, I've, I've got someclients who really didn't
understand how like little valuethe points were that they had.
(22:38):
And, um, keeping credit cardsopen with annual fees that they
couldn't swing because of thepoints.
And, you know, it's, it's real,it's gambling in action.
And, uh, I would say I thinkpoints should be a lovely little
celebration for paying off yourcredit card in full.
It's, it's not worth itotherwise to be accruing points,
you know, unless you're reallyon top of your cashflow game.
(22:59):
So, yeah, I try to get back fromthat.
And I know debit cards areproblematic.
I know they're insecure, but.
I do offer to my clients, have acouple months of debit card
spending months to get used towhat their actual cashflow can
afford, and then get back intothe credit card use.
That's a more responsible creditcard use, so just don't be
(23:19):
attached to the points, y'all,it's, it's not worth it until
you're really got your armsaround your cash flow.
Stoy (23:25):
It really isn't because of the interest rates.
Exactly.
Like truly
Rachel Duncan (23:28):
it's gonna blow everything.
Like points is just like they'repennies, pennies, pennies on the
dollar.
Um, you compare that to 28%interest rate.
Like they just don't.
Stoy (23:38):
Right.
Like why, why do you thinkcredit cards incentivize you
people for points?
Right.
It costs them nothing.
Yeah.
And they earn so much more moneyon it because you like to hold
onto the interest rates and wegot interest rates 17 to 25%.
Yeah.
That's where they get you.
Now back to your point, unlessyou really understand how to
utilize it and set it up, likefor example, a lot of business
(24:00):
owners or those others that youcould have automatic bills on
and you're just using as points,perfect.
Then set up to auto pay with itthat way.
It's just, it's just money andmoney out.
You're just using the accountfor protection and points.
That's it.
Literally nothing else that youhave to do.
The caveat to that is you needto look at the transaction fees
because a lot of places now passthat on to you.
Three, three and a half percent.
(24:21):
I'm sure it's getting higher aswe speak, but they pass that on.
It's not worth it.
For the points.
'cause the points don't equateto three, three and a half
percent.
Rachel Duncan (24:32):
Never.
They
Stoy (24:32):
just don't, they never will.
Um, it'll never happen.
So just be really, really smartpeople out there because you're
gonna get into that credit cardhole.
And then we're, now we'retalking about a whole different
game, right?
Gamification.
Now we have to play a differentgame and now we gotta get you
out of debt.
And we, we have to figure outthat, that situation.
So I like that.
Rachel Duncan (24:50):
Yeah.
And plus the points are oftenwhat you can use'em for is so
restrictive and like, weactually don't travel much in
our family and if we do like, wewant a lot of control over how
we travel.
So we only do cash back.
And so when we like cash thatout a few times a year, that's
then, then maybe we'll put thatin a travel fund and we just
cash it out.
So yeah, we're going on a hugetrip this summer and I'd said,
(25:10):
oh, do you have points like.
No, we've just been collectingcash for the last few years and
that has paid for it.
So then we can decide exactlywhat flights we want with the
carrier.
So, you know, I mean, itdepends.
That's, that's our thing.
'cause we're not big travelers.
So I also think like, know, knowyourself, like, you know, um, I
think there can be a lot ofrestrictions with these points
that might not suit your life.
And I'm a big proponent of justthat straight up cash,
Stoy (25:35):
that cash flow.
Flexibility.
Yes.
Having ability to be flexible.
It's, it's a massive thing.
Rachel Duncan (25:39):
Yeah.
Stoy (25:40):
Alright, so we've been through what we've done on our
hill, we've been through yourclub, all those great things.
Now we get to like my specialtwo questions.
Rachel Duncan (25:48):
Ooh.
Stoy (25:49):
Okay.
And these are always fun,although you kind of hit upon
the first one, so we'll seewhere this goes.
But what is your first moneymemory?
Rachel Duncan (25:56):
Such a classic.
This is a classic therapist.
Questions.
Doy.
I love it.
Well, I have many,'cause I'vethought about this a lot'cause
I've asked many people thisquestion too.
Um, I, one of my first ones wasmy dad always.
Did taxes, and this is back inthe eighties, so it was all
paper and pencil.
And he had, you know, one ofthose great old calculators with
the paper tape, and it was like,really clicky clackity and it
(26:19):
would like really be noisy whenit printed out.
And, um, and he'd be sittingdown and, and, uh, and he'd
invite me over and I got to runthe calculator.
And so he would tell me, youknow, add this and then add this
and subtract.
This and you know, percentagesme such great, like basic math
and um, so I think just like thesensory experience, I mean, I
was just obsessed with officesupplies, so like, just the
(26:39):
calculators, so Great.
That's great.
But you know what I realized, Ireally do appreciate, my parents
know they were not great withmoney in all respects, but they
really involved me in like.
In the process and we went, itwas very lean times, like very
lean times and you know, theywould say, Hey, we've got$50 to
spend at the store today.
Can you help me keep track?
Right.
(27:00):
They would involve me in it orthey would say, ah, that's just
not something we can do thismonth.
Because we had, you know, we hadto replace the brakes in the
car, but also just including mein the taxes, like making it a
really enjoyable experience forme and I was gonna maybe 10 or
something, and that it wassomething that I could do and
wasn't scary.
I think just on this subtlelevel.
I can see how that paved the wayfor my work now because it was
(27:21):
like, Hey, just sit down with acalculator.
Like you pretend you're agrownup and you just kind of
make it a nice time and it'ssomething you get through and
it's maybe not the best thingever, but it's not the worst.
And my dad just made it reallysweet and fun as well as
serious, you know?
Yeah.
Um, so that's an early memory
Stoy (27:36):
when you look back on that, has that.
How has that molded you and howhas it represented into you
today where you're at,
Rachel Duncan (27:44):
like that experience?
I think I bring a lot of what mydad brought of like, Hey, let's
sit down.
It's all good.
You're good.
Check it.
And also, right, he taught me tolike run it three times, right?
It's like, it's okay if you makea mistake, it's just fine.
Like this is life and you keepredoing it and we're in this
together.
And I think that's very much mybelief about money is that we
(28:05):
gotta be in this together and wegotta be kind about it and
really like.
Forgiving of mistakes.
And it's also just possible,it's just a sheet of numbers you
can add up or sort of dowhatever with.
And yes, there's times to gethelp, you know, and there's also
a lot you can do on your own.
And I mean, like, you know, youdon't have to go to an advisor
for everything.
And I think just like havingthat, really having more
(28:27):
positive.
Conversations, more positiveexperiences with money starts
to, you know, it heals thetrauma and, and it makes you
believe that it's something youcan do.
So that's something I think I'vecarried from my dad.
Thanks, dad.
Yeah.
Stoy (28:40):
Hi, dad.
All right.
Last question.
What is one thing you wannaleave our listeners with that
they can implement today andstart their journey or improve
where they're at in theirjourney?
Rachel Duncan (28:49):
Mm-hmm.
Well, I'd love to know if peoplewanna use that.
The, uh, gift card thing.
I do love that.
That's, I love it.
A little, little hack, but Ithink on a much bigger scale,
um.
You know, journaling has justproven to be an incredible tool
for folks.
And, um, I'll share my favoritejournaling prompt, which is you
sit down and you write dearmoney, and you write a letter to
(29:11):
money and you let it out.
Like all the complaints, all thefour letter words, the
questions, the frustrations, theadmiration, whatever it is,
whatever's true for you and you,and you write a letter to money.
And then you take a minute andyou turn the page, you open a
brand new page and you writemoney's letter back to you and
(29:33):
you start it with somethingsweet, you know, dear Lovey,
dear story.
And if I know, it might seemweird, it's actually pretty
surprising how easy it is to getinto this.
And you write money's letterback to you and it's, it's quite
a journey.
It's quite emotional and I thinky'all might be surprised,
pleasantly surprised withwhat's, what money is like when
you.
(29:54):
When you open up a direct lineof communication with it,
instead of it going throughsomebody else, when you have a
direct line of communicationwith money, its character tends
to be really compassionate andkind and creative and forgiving.
But also boundaried won't put upwith your shit.
Wants to be closer to you, wantsto be friends, wants to work
together.
Like I have run this.
(30:14):
I'm not kidding hundreds ofpeople.
I do this in workshops.
I do this individually and moreoften than not, those are the
qualities of money when we openup a direct line to it, and
these are even like people whoare full on traumatized about
money.
I.
It was, it was that person orthat situation that was
traumatic.
Now, money itself actuallyreally wants to work with you.
(30:35):
Uh, so it's, it's a wonderfulthing that I use myself all the
time and I do a lot of workshopswith it, and it can start to
create this like beautifuldirect line.
And then when you have like afinancial decision coming up or
you're frustrated with yourself.
Write to money and have moneyright back to you.
It will help you decide what todo.
It knows and if you can slowdown and ask it, there's
(30:57):
incredible wisdom that's alreadyall within you about maybe a
direction you need to take orsomething you need to choose to
do.
Stoy (31:05):
I love that, love that exercise.
I'm about to start doing thatone.
Rachel Duncan (31:08):
I wanna hear, I wanna hear your letters back.
Yes.
Stoy (31:11):
I'm gonna start doing that.
Well, we appreciate you and weappreciate everything that you
do, both with the Money HealingClub, but also just in general
Rachel Duncan (31:18):
thank you.
Stoy (31:19):
The spirit in what you have is, is truly warming and
I'm so glad that I have someoneelse that I can relate to and,
and be a resource in this fightagainst.
I don't know what we'refighting, but I know it's not
what we need to be doing rightnow.
Thanks.
And our industry needs toimprove and I, I'm just glad
that you're part of that.
Rachel Duncan (31:34):
I appreciate so much being on the podcast you've
given me also podcastinspiration for, for my podcast,
so thank you.
Stoy (31:40):
Awesome.
Awesome.
Thank you.
I know, I know.
Bringing on another therapist, Iknow, I know people.
We talk about it all the time.
The mindset, the money, thebudget, et cetera.
First of all, the ones I bringon like Ashley Quantum are
amazing.
So is Rachel Duncan.
She's gonna have a differentspin, a little bit of art.
How does art heal us?
That's what we're gonna gothrough today and.
(00:20):
What hills she likes to die on.
So without further ado, Rachel,welcome to the show and why
don't you download us with one,how you got to where you're at,
but also what the Money HealingClub Podcast is about and where
you see that going here in thefuture.
Rachel Duncan (00:35):
Thanks so much for having Mesto and.
I gotta say, we could all usemore therapists in our lives,
so, um, I, I hope I don't, uh,tip the skills too much, but
thank you.
So, yes, I am a financialtherapist and art therapist, and
I co-founded the Money HealingClub, which
is@moneyhealingclub.com.
And it's a, it's a.
Group membership where I teachboth the nuts and bolts of
(00:58):
personal finance to folks who'vebeen really avoiding it, as well
as get into sort of using ouremotions, working with our
emotions to get better withmoney instead of
compartmentalizing them orshoving them down.
And one of the ways I do that isthrough creative exercises.
So first it seems like what doart and money have to do with
each other?
Like, it seems like nothing butthe way I do it, we can really
(01:18):
explore the, um, sort of feltexperience of money because.
Money just is emotional.
It's actually the first line onmy website.
It just is emotional.
So let's work with it insteadof, uh, pushing it down.
Stoy (01:29):
What got you into that game?
Like what, I know you weren't alittle kid going, you know, a
financial therapist is the wayto go.
Right.
Although it's never a thing forus back then either.
So how did you get into thisworld?
Rachel Duncan (01:40):
Oh, well, it's, it's the tale of two passions.
Um, I always loved like countingmy pennies and getting odd jobs,
and there was a joke in myfamily that, you know, at age 11
I had more of my savings accountthan most members of my family.
Like, I just really likedwatching my money grow.
I liked working.
Um, I really liked.
You know, like, uh, making theroles of coins to take into the
(02:01):
bank account, memorizing my bankaccount number.
I just was interested in allthat stuff.
However, I also was always superinto the arts, music, visual
art, all of that.
So I had like, I was one ofthose like well-rounded kids.
I sort of was, was good at manythings.
It was really hard for me topick actually anything.
So it's like in science, I wassuper into math and science and
then, or sorry, in high school Iwas really into math and
(02:23):
science.
And then in college I actuallymajored in religion'cause I was
kind of going through aspiritual thing.
So, you know, it's just sort ofbeen all of these things I've
been like a bookkeeper and thenan art teacher and a preschool
teacher.
And then I went to grad schooland therapy.
So, or in art therapyspecifically, but I'm.
I dunno.
I was just always that, thatweirdo, that weirdo artist who
(02:43):
was like really comfortable withmoney and like understood
insurance and like I did a lotof HR work.
Like I understand, like I can, Ican write in legalese very
easily and then switch into likepoetry.
So in a lot of ways it kind oftormented me.
Because I real like what?
What's the thing?
It would actually be easier ifthere was just like one thing,
but I sort of loved all of it.
And in the pandemic I had toclose my private practice in art
(03:06):
therapy and there had been acouple of high profile articles
about financial therapy.
I think it was in the New YorkTimes and NPR maybe.
And so some friends forwardedsaid to me, like, two friends
sent me the same article, like Ithink this is you.
So this is like kind of deepinto 2020.
And I was like, what?
I didn't know I'd be allowed todo that.
'cause I was always the weirdtherapist who like, enjoyed
(03:27):
talking about billing rates andinsurance reimbursement and
career counseling and stuff likethat.
Um, but I was pretty muchdissuaded, you know, from that
there was like no pathway.
So when I heard that financialtherapy was a thing, I was like,
maybe I don't have to juggle allof this or choose nothing.
You know, maybe I could actuallycombine it.
So I got trained up.
It was super easy.
It was like, well, this isobviously it.
And ever since I said I'm afinancial therapist, everything
(03:48):
has clicked together and I don'tfeel like.
I feel like I am in a nicheinstead of being all spread out.
So, kind of a long answer, uh,to your question, but, um,
bringing in like the financialsort of coaching part came
really easily to me'cause it'slike what I've been doing
personally and my personalfinance.
Um, but then like, oh wow, howcan I bring in my therapy and my
(04:10):
art therapy training into thetopic of money?
And it's been such an excitingand creative and very healing
experience for both me and myclients.
Stoy (04:20):
It's amazing and I, I love your one, your passion.
Honestly, I'm a money guy.
I love money.
People have passion about money,but more along the lines of
using like what you know, yourexperience, what you're
comfortable with, who you are.
Yeah.
To help teach others.
And I really truly believe ourindustry has done a really,
really.
Really, really, really, really,really, really shitty job since
(04:42):
the creation of it, um, ofmeeting people where they're at
and connecting their passions,their joys, their experiences to
how they can learn money, themoney game, and become and get
ahead, right?
It's always been about, Hey,give us your money.
We'll put this in thisinvestment.
We'll get you a hundred thousandpercent return, whatever the
hell it is.
Right?
(05:02):
It's always been about like.
Getting money, return of money,getting money, return of money.
This is what you're supposed todo at this age, supposed to have
this much money at retirementand blah, blah, blah.
Rachel Duncan (05:11):
The thing is, well, and I'll add, and it's
just for these people.
Yes, right?
These people who look like us,which tends to be the white guys
who you know, and the boomers.
And so it's like a lot of ushave just simply felt left out.
Also, like I was told when Ihad, like I was so proud, I'd
saved a thousand dollars.
I was like 24.
I walked into a bank, what do Ido with my money?
And I was told I don't haveenough money to do anything with
(05:32):
my money.
And it was such, I think back onthat time, what a missed
opportunity for that person tohave a conversation with me.
So I shut up about it for thenext eight years.
Like, well, clearly I don't haveenough money to get any help
with this.
You know?
And I mean, it's such adisservice, like we're so many
folks are just left out.
I feel like, oh, that's not mything.
Especially, I work with a lot offolks who are creative,
(05:54):
neurodivergent all this stuff.
Like, oh, I, I'm the one in myfamily who's quote irresponsible
with money.
And then that like badge stayswith you.
And then how are.
We all have to interact withmoney.
So it's so unfair to say, wellthat's not for me.
This is one of these topics.
We, we just don't have thatluxury of saying, that's not for
me.
'cause we all have to dosomething with our money.
Stoy (06:13):
We do.
And we've been somisappropriated misled because
we haven't had the diversity inindustry.
We just haven't, I wrote anarticle for an inves or
investment news, sorry aboutDEI, and it's been blown up and
in my community I've gottenattacked.
The old white advisors, ofcourse, right?
I mean, who, who else was gonnacome at me?
(06:33):
And their whole thing is like,well, di really doesn't do
anything, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And I'm like, this is the simplefact.
And, and they, there's like fouror five of'em have responded
publicly that had said, I onlywant to hire someone based upon
their performance, their merit,and all that stuff.
And I said in my article andsubsequently.
(06:53):
Yes, I'm a, I'm a former collegeathlete, right?
I played football.
I understand performance,competitiveness, and merit.
We all need to have merit.
You can't just go offwilly-nilly and do this,
however, you can't get into thegame to even show your merit.
Right now, there is advisors andpeople in other industries and
et cetera that are not evenallowed to get into the game,
(07:15):
let alone the training or thepractice for the game to show
that they have the merit andthey can perform.
And that's the problem.
And people with money onlyusually truly, really wanna work
with people that are like them.
Whether that's, you know, theyphysically look, look like them,
sound like them, or believe inthe things they believe in.
Tell me if this is true, but I'mpretty sure like the 80% of the
(07:38):
old white dudes that areadvisors don't make up 80% of
this country.
Rachel Duncan (07:43):
Absolutely not.
So
Stoy (07:44):
what are we really doing?
Rachel Duncan (07:46):
And I've had so many clients tell me when I've
asked them like, oh, why did youuse me like.
You seemed nice.
You seemed like a warm person.
Not like just nice, but like youactually seemed like someone who
I could have a kind conversationwith about money.
You looked non-judgmental.
I had recently had a memberwho's a person of color say, you
look like you're not racist.
And, and this person said, I hadbeen looking for someone in
(08:06):
finance who was a woman of colorand actually couldn't find them.
And then I saw I am a whiteperson and said like, well,
she'll do.
But I really appreciated thatlike my branding and it showed
and my.
Authenticity and who I am and mycharacter in there is that like
I'm gonna pre be a person whocan have tough conversations.
I'm a person who has a wide andaccepting personality also, that
(08:28):
I'm just kind, I bring a lot ofhumor into my work.
It's very light.
It's.
Fun as well as deep andemotional.
And there's a lot of folks whoneed that, where the idea of
sitting down and talking tosomeone about money is like, I'd
rather put pins in my eyes and Itry to, I do my best to, to make
the vibes good.
So like that's a lot of thefeedback I get is like, your
(08:48):
vibes seem good.
Stoy (08:49):
Well, and I've um, I've done a bunch of studying and
data on this both from just.
Out there and asking people,because it comes down to two,
there's two types of people inthis world I have found, and
only one type of person I allowon this podcast anyway.
But it is, there's two types ofpeople.
You either care about people oryou care about money.
That's, it is as simple as that.
(09:10):
And some people are like, well,I, I do both.
You can, you can care aboutpeople and still make good
money.
Yeah.
However, if you only focus onmoney, you're not taking care of
people.
There is no overlap to that isliterally truly one or the
other, and that's what peoplesee out of you.
That's what I felt.
That's what I see, right, isbecause you care about people.
You're not sitting here going,man, I, you know, I just wanna
(09:32):
make a million dollars thisyear, or whatever number may be
off of people.
No, I wanna help as many peopleas I can with what I'm good at.
Yes, they have to pay for that.
But it's not because that's whatI'm wanting to do.
And so that's one of the hillsthat I will die on as well, is
that there's only two people inthis world and there's no, in my
opinion, there's no room forpeople that only care about
(09:53):
money, and that's one of myhills.
So what is one of your hillsthat you will die on?
Rachel Duncan (09:59):
Okay, my pet peeve is the word abundance.
I like that.
God, it is thrown around in myaudiences so much.
And my pet peeve is that it'snot that I, I don't agree with
abundance.
It's great.
But what are we saying?
What are you saying when I justwanna manifest abundance?
So, you know, I tend to workwith a lot of women,
(10:21):
millennials.
That's very much like the lingothat we use.
And I, there's a couple things.
I feel it's just not specificenough.
Right.
Are you talking about havingmore income?
What income level?
Like I kind of push folks to alittle more specificity and, and
I think the word, you know,relates to kind of like, Hey, I
need to shift my mindset to bemore open to things.
(10:42):
I'm all about that.
That's great.
The, the thing that, the layerof the word abundance that I
don't love is I hear, I wannahave so much money, I don't have
to think about money anymore.
It was like, are we talkingabout having your safety and
basic needs met first and beingable to have like a, a, a
lifestyle that you really enjoy?
So then we need to get a lotmore specific about what that
(11:05):
means and from both the numbersand what that lifestyle looks
like.
And also, guess what, the moremoney you have actually, the
more time you have to spend withit.
Now, granted, yes.
You might be at a point where I,I'd love to not worry about
where my rent check is comingfrom.
Absolutely.
I want you to not have to worryabout that anymore.
But what's interesting is themore wealth we gain, actually
(11:25):
the more time you have to spendwith it.
It, it's not less.
So I kind of feel like there's alittle bit of like, I'd love to
have so much money, I can reallyavoid it.
And that's just not, that's notreal.
So I, I just feel like I, I lovethe intention of it and the
mindset, and I wanna acceptmoney.
Especially for folks who've beenmaybe chronically underearning
or folks who've beenmarginalized have never received
(11:46):
much money.
Totally.
But abundance just doesn't sayenough.
It feels too magical to me.
And money's not magical.
It's just not magical.
So I don't know.
What do you think that that's,that's, that's my hill.
Stoy (12:00):
I could not agree more really.
One, I loathe money.
I really wish we didn't have amoney system.
The whole wealth, I, I wish itwasn't here.
Really do.
'cause it just creates just moreissues, terrible people, et
cetera.
When people say, you know, Idon't wanna outlive in the
scarcity mindset versusabundance mindset, those types
of things.
I mean, I've used them myselftoo.
But to the, the credit of whatyou are talking about, majority
(12:23):
of people don't know.
What living with money is likebecause of two reasons.
One, they, their family has havenever had it.
They've never learned it, it'snever been taught.
It's not in social media.
Two, because those that aretruly wealthy and they, they
don't worry about it.
And yes, those listening airquotes, those are air quotes.
(12:43):
Air quotes, is they show thatthey don't care and they don't
worry about it and they don'thave to think about it.
Right.
That's what they show.
But inherently, every ultrawealthy person I know has more
anxiety and more troublesomewith their money than someone
who's living paycheck topaycheck because those people
(13:04):
are working hard and they knowexactly what's going on, and
they try to relax the ones thathave the most money.
Are always doing something.
There's always this next thing.
There is this, there is that,there is this, and then it
starts growing and growing andgrowing and now you have 50
different things in 50 differentplaces.
And yeah, you might have a teamthat you hire and stuff to deal
with it, but you have so muchmore going on because.
(13:28):
You have to have so much moregoing on that it creates this
whole different lifestyle thatthose that are living paycheck
to paycheck, wish they just hadenough to get there.
Truly don't understand that, andI think there's a happy medium.
I really do that.
We need to get people too, butwe need them to be real about
what that is.
We need them to be real withwhat they want.
(13:50):
How they perceive it, incomelevel, the things that you just
talked about, but also we needthe, the others to be more
transparent about actually howlife is going and how, you know,
unorganized they feel and allthose things too.
Because ultimately across theboard, we all feel very much the
same.
It's just a different set ofissues in circumstances.
(14:10):
And I know a lot of people aregonna be like, yeah, well I wish
I had those circumstances in ahundred million dollars.
Yes, this is true.
We all do, but, but you don't.
And how realistic is you gettinga hundred million dollars based
upon where you're born, whatyour degree is, where you're at?
It isn't.
So what is for you?
And I think that goes back towhat you're talking about of
(14:31):
what income level, what are yourgoals, what are your, what are
your things you want?
Because there's only a trulyrealistic number that you can
get to.
Without it fundamentallychanging who you are and going
to the, I care more about moneyand less about people type
situation.
Rachel Duncan (14:44):
And I feel it leads to a really fruitful
conversation about lifestyleinflation, lifestyle creep.
And you know, what I see is alot of folks I work with are
underearning.
Like, yes, you do absolutelyneed more money, right?
To get to a point where you'vegot some savings where you can
pay for your medical, right?
Like, so I do, I kind of seethis graph going where, okay, we
need more money.
(15:06):
For your lifestyle.
And then at a certain pointthough, we need to uncouple your
income from your livingexpenses.
Now, where that point is, isdifferent for everybody and that
point has gotten higher andhigher over the years.
And I would say that's kind ofwhere we're talking about more
of this like.
This comfortable level ofhappiness, right?
Wherever that is, and now Iuncouple it where the amount of
(15:27):
money I make has no relation towhat I am spending on my life.
Because that gap, the more I canincrease that gap between my
income and expenses, that iswhere true wealth happens.
That can't happen till a certainpoint.
Where you might be kind ofspending what you're making as
you make more to be able toafford a good life and also
start to save and things likethat so that that can take a
(15:49):
while.
But then there's that toughconversation because we call it
lifestyle creep for a reason.
It sneaks up out of nowhereabout your wants becoming your
needs, and it's a creepy sort ofinsidious thing that comes up
over life.
I have worked with folks whomake multiple six figures and
live.
Paycheck to paycheck because ofthe lifestyle creep.
(16:11):
So there's, you know, I do thinkit's like, okay, let's back up a
little bit.
It's, it's hard to deflate yourlifestyle.
I will say it's possible, butthat's hard.
But if you can kind of look tothe look ahead.
Oh, okay.
At that income level, I thinkwe're good.
I wanna say that is in my headwhat my salary is, or my
spendable my, you know, themoney I can spend.
And anything above that is, Ihave a plan, right?
(16:32):
And I've talked to an advisor orwhatever, and I'm putting money
in, into that.
So, you know, that's a littlebit of like, let's get a little
more specific because hey, ifyou don't watch it, all that
money you're gonna make, youwill spend, you just will spend
if you don't have some kind ofplan for that.
Stoy (16:47):
And that's really the.
The hardest thing for people isif they see it, they will spend
it.
And there's one thing that we dowithin someone's budget
allocation that is, isdifferent.
I, I can't wait to see one yourreaction, but you get your
opinion on this too.
Tell me.
'cause there's really two thingsthat I do for our budget, but
this one specifically is wecreate a new line item and we
(17:09):
call it fund money.
Rachel Duncan (17:10):
Oh yes.
Stoy (17:10):
This line item,
Rachel Duncan (17:11):
I have a tab in my spreadsheet called fund
money.
Love it.
Same line.
Yes.
Stoy (17:15):
Love it.
Um, this fund money amount,obviously don't make it three,
four,$5,000, right?
It should just be 20, 50, ahundred dollars.
Whatever fits your budget thatyou literally can go burn if you
want to go do whatever you wantwith it.
I don't care if you cut it upinto a million pieces.
Please don't.
I feel like there's better uses,but that's what it needs to be
(17:35):
for because we are humans.
We have this impulse, we havethis, you know, retail therapy.
We have this thing that when webuy something, it makes us feel
good at that moment, and youhave to be able to do so.
If you build that in, then it,that has that flexibility built
in.
You're not gonna go try to pullit from somewhere else.
And then when you do that andyou go over budget somewhere
else, it, then it starts tospiral.
(17:57):
But if you have this fund money,it allows you, gives you that
ability to go spend.
However you want.
Rachel Duncan (18:03):
Because we have, think about like we're sort of
this vessel with all of thisstress, and it's like the more
you tell yourself, no, no, no,no, no, then you're gonna break
out of that and do somethingpotentially really destructive.
So having a fun money set aside,it's like a little pressure
valve to release.
So impulse spending is thenumber one issue.
My clients, my club members cometo me with, they really feel
(18:25):
like, they feel out of controlwith it.
Um, they dunno where theirmoney's going.
It is, I see it, I buy it.
And they really have a ton ofshame around it.
They often have, a lot of myfolks are millennials, so
they've got these boomer parentswho, oh, it's because of all
your lattes.
And so there's also likeinter-family, you know, fighting
and things like that.
But I, I'm all about thatbecause if we just restrict,
(18:45):
restrict, restrict, guess what?
It stimulates the addictioncycle.
And it mimics the diet cycle,the addiction cycle, all of this
stuff.
So this is a framework I I teacha lot is that the, I'm putting
in air quotes, relapse, you knowthe fuck it moment that everyone
describes it the same way, thefuck it moment.
I'm less interested in the fuckit moment.
I'm more interested what wasgoing on before that.
(19:06):
Right.
Oh, I was like real, I had afight with my parents or I was
like, I spent all week ingetting this whole thing
organized, or I really toldmyself I wasn't gonna eat out
this month.
Right.
This like super restrictive,unrealistic, like denial and
restriction.
And then guess what?
I blinked out and apparently Ibought a ticket to Paris, right?
And, and so.
Actually, the more we are awareof this cycle, how human it is,
(19:29):
the cycle gets less and lessdramatic every time we go around
it.
Actually, one little hack Ilove, you can share this with
your clients.
I love pre-purchasing a giftcard.
So it's like, okay, this is myfun money.
It's a, you know, target orSephora or whatever it is.
Buy yourself a gift card.
You've spent it already, andthen it's really fun.
Then you make a plan for it.
(19:50):
So I say plan for the impulse,which kind of seems like, uh,
you know, a contradiction interms, but like, and you enjoy
it so much more.
I got a hundred bucks on thisthing, I'm just gonna.
Go for it, right?
It's already spent.
You have that great time, rightthere is kind of a ceiling on
it, and then people end upgamifying it, which is really
fun.
And for folks, I mean, I thinkthis is true for a lot of folks,
(20:11):
but especially those with A DHD,the gamification really works.
What's the best stuff I can getfor under this threshold?
That's the dopamine working,that's the thrill of the hunt.
And it's a much more satisfyingexperience than like, oh, just
little impulse.
Spending here and there, andthen I feel shitty afterwards.
Like if you plan for thatimpulse, if you prepurchase it,
it can actually feel so muchbetter and it starts calming the
(20:34):
desire
Stoy (20:36):
and then it puts everything else into line.
It really does.
Like I, it really does.
Once we implement it, I.
People actually, like we areable to reduce overall budgets
because of it.
And I'm not talking about theoverage of the budget, like I'm
talking about our budget linethat we set.
Even though they go over, we'reable to reduce that because of
that.
Right?
Um, it takes a lot of those, Idon't wanna say impulses from
(20:57):
everything else, but it takesaway that like, I really needed
that, or I really want that, or.
I, I deserve that.
Right?
Even within that budget, it justtakes kind of all of that away
and allows them to be free.
And ultimately that's what whatI really want from clients, and
I know you do too, is the, Icall it cashflow, flexibility,
the ability to have movement andflexibility within your money to
(21:21):
adapt to those cycles becausethose are real.
This is, no one on this planetthat I know anyways is so rigid
with their budget that everymonth is exact same thing.
They feel the same.
You know the weather's the same.
Everything's the same.
Those
Rachel Duncan (21:35):
people don't come to
Stoy (21:36):
us Doy, I think they're out there and they don't seek
help.
Exactly.
It's just not out there.
So you have to have thatflexibility and I really believe
that that's a key point too.
So,
Rachel Duncan (21:44):
yeah.
And because it dispels shame, Ithink that's the big thing.
Right?
Especially if a lot of my folkshave never talked with any adult
about their money.
Like, maybe other than somefights with their parents, I'm
like the first one.
So to, to give that kind ofallowance, like, of course you
need some fun money.
Oh my God, now I can breathe.
I can be a person.
I could like go spend a hundreddollars on yarn if I want to.
(22:05):
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
Do you, do you, man, like I ammore concerned about how you
feel about you than what I feelabout you, you know?
Stoy (22:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
Alright.
What's another hill?
Rachel Duncan (22:17):
Well, this's the more practical side, not less
therapy side.
It's just that people gotta getoff the whole points thing.
Credit card points just aren'tworth it unless you are in the
pay it off in full every monthclub.
The points are a gamificationagain, but towards really
negative habits.
You know, I've, I've got someclients who really didn't
understand how like little valuethe points were that they had.
(22:38):
And, um, keeping credit cardsopen with annual fees that they
couldn't swing because of thepoints.
And, you know, it's, it's real,it's gambling in action.
And, uh, I would say I thinkpoints should be a lovely little
celebration for paying off yourcredit card in full.
It's, it's not worth itotherwise to be accruing points,
you know, unless you're reallyon top of your cashflow game.
(22:59):
So, yeah, I try to get back fromthat.
And I know debit cards areproblematic.
I know they're insecure, but.
I do offer to my clients, have acouple months of debit card
spending months to get used towhat their actual cashflow can
afford, and then get back intothe credit card use.
That's a more responsible creditcard use, so just don't be
(23:19):
attached to the points, y'all,it's, it's not worth it until
you're really got your armsaround your cash flow.
Stoy (23:25):
It really isn't because of the interest rates.
Exactly.
Like truly
Rachel Duncan (23:28):
it's gonna blow everything.
Like points is just like they'repennies, pennies, pennies on the
dollar.
Um, you compare that to 28%interest rate.
Like they just don't.
Stoy (23:38):
Right.
Like why, why do you thinkcredit cards incentivize you
people for points?
Right.
It costs them nothing.
Yeah.
And they earn so much more moneyon it because you like to hold
onto the interest rates and wegot interest rates 17 to 25%.
Yeah.
That's where they get you.
Now back to your point, unlessyou really understand how to
utilize it and set it up, likefor example, a lot of business
(24:00):
owners or those others that youcould have automatic bills on
and you're just using as points,perfect.
Then set up to auto pay with itthat way.
It's just, it's just money andmoney out.
You're just using the accountfor protection and points.
That's it.
Literally nothing else that youhave to do.
The caveat to that is you needto look at the transaction fees
because a lot of places now passthat on to you.
Three, three and a half percent.
(24:21):
I'm sure it's getting higher aswe speak, but they pass that on.
It's not worth it.
For the points.
'cause the points don't equateto three, three and a half
percent.
Rachel Duncan (24:32):
Never.
They
Stoy (24:32):
just don't, they never will.
Um, it'll never happen.
So just be really, really smartpeople out there because you're
gonna get into that credit cardhole.
And then we're, now we'retalking about a whole different
game, right?
Gamification.
Now we have to play a differentgame and now we gotta get you
out of debt.
And we, we have to figure outthat, that situation.
So I like that.
Rachel Duncan (24:50):
Yeah.
And plus the points are oftenwhat you can use'em for is so
restrictive and like, weactually don't travel much in
our family and if we do like, wewant a lot of control over how
we travel.
So we only do cash back.
And so when we like cash thatout a few times a year, that's
then, then maybe we'll put thatin a travel fund and we just
cash it out.
So yeah, we're going on a hugetrip this summer and I'd said,
(25:10):
oh, do you have points like.
No, we've just been collectingcash for the last few years and
that has paid for it.
So then we can decide exactlywhat flights we want with the
carrier.
So, you know, I mean, itdepends.
That's, that's our thing.
'cause we're not big travelers.
So I also think like, know, knowyourself, like, you know, um, I
think there can be a lot ofrestrictions with these points
that might not suit your life.
And I'm a big proponent of justthat straight up cash,
Stoy (25:35):
that cash flow.
Flexibility.
Yes.
Having ability to be flexible.
It's, it's a massive thing.
Rachel Duncan (25:39):
Yeah.
Stoy (25:40):
Alright, so we've been through what we've done on our
hill, we've been through yourclub, all those great things.
Now we get to like my specialtwo questions.
Rachel Duncan (25:48):
Ooh.
Stoy (25:49):
Okay.
And these are always fun,although you kind of hit upon
the first one, so we'll seewhere this goes.
But what is your first moneymemory?
Rachel Duncan (25:56):
Such a classic.
This is a classic therapist.
Questions.
Doy.
I love it.
Well, I have many,'cause I'vethought about this a lot'cause
I've asked many people thisquestion too.
Um, I, one of my first ones wasmy dad always.
Did taxes, and this is back inthe eighties, so it was all
paper and pencil.
And he had, you know, one ofthose great old calculators with
the paper tape, and it was like,really clicky clackity and it
(26:19):
would like really be noisy whenit printed out.
And, um, and he'd be sittingdown and, and, uh, and he'd
invite me over and I got to runthe calculator.
And so he would tell me, youknow, add this and then add this
and subtract.
This and you know, percentagesme such great, like basic math
and um, so I think just like thesensory experience, I mean, I
was just obsessed with officesupplies, so like, just the
(26:39):
calculators, so Great.
That's great.
But you know what I realized, Ireally do appreciate, my parents
know they were not great withmoney in all respects, but they
really involved me in like.
In the process and we went, itwas very lean times, like very
lean times and you know, theywould say, Hey, we've got$50 to
spend at the store today.
Can you help me keep track?
Right.
(27:00):
They would involve me in it orthey would say, ah, that's just
not something we can do thismonth.
Because we had, you know, we hadto replace the brakes in the
car, but also just including mein the taxes, like making it a
really enjoyable experience forme and I was gonna maybe 10 or
something, and that it wassomething that I could do and
wasn't scary.
I think just on this subtlelevel.
I can see how that paved the wayfor my work now because it was
(27:21):
like, Hey, just sit down with acalculator.
Like you pretend you're agrownup and you just kind of
make it a nice time and it'ssomething you get through and
it's maybe not the best thingever, but it's not the worst.
And my dad just made it reallysweet and fun as well as
serious, you know?
Yeah.
Um, so that's an early memory
Stoy (27:36):
when you look back on that, has that.
How has that molded you and howhas it represented into you
today where you're at,
Rachel Duncan (27:44):
like that experience?
I think I bring a lot of what mydad brought of like, Hey, let's
sit down.
It's all good.
You're good.
Check it.
And also, right, he taught me tolike run it three times, right?
It's like, it's okay if you makea mistake, it's just fine.
Like this is life and you keepredoing it and we're in this
together.
And I think that's very much mybelief about money is that we
(28:05):
gotta be in this together and wegotta be kind about it and
really like.
Forgiving of mistakes.
And it's also just possible,it's just a sheet of numbers you
can add up or sort of dowhatever with.
And yes, there's times to gethelp, you know, and there's also
a lot you can do on your own.
And I mean, like, you know, youdon't have to go to an advisor
for everything.
And I think just like havingthat, really having more
(28:27):
positive.
Conversations, more positiveexperiences with money starts
to, you know, it heals thetrauma and, and it makes you
believe that it's something youcan do.
So that's something I think I'vecarried from my dad.
Thanks, dad.
Yeah.
Stoy (28:40):
Hi, dad.
All right.
Last question.
What is one thing you wannaleave our listeners with that
they can implement today andstart their journey or improve
where they're at in theirjourney?
Rachel Duncan (28:49):
Mm-hmm.
Well, I'd love to know if peoplewanna use that.
The, uh, gift card thing.
I do love that.
That's, I love it.
A little, little hack, but Ithink on a much bigger scale,
um.
You know, journaling has justproven to be an incredible tool
for folks.
And, um, I'll share my favoritejournaling prompt, which is you
sit down and you write dearmoney, and you write a letter to
(29:11):
money and you let it out.
Like all the complaints, all thefour letter words, the
questions, the frustrations, theadmiration, whatever it is,
whatever's true for you and you,and you write a letter to money.
And then you take a minute andyou turn the page, you open a
brand new page and you writemoney's letter back to you and
(29:33):
you start it with somethingsweet, you know, dear Lovey,
dear story.
And if I know, it might seemweird, it's actually pretty
surprising how easy it is to getinto this.
And you write money's letterback to you and it's, it's quite
a journey.
It's quite emotional and I thinky'all might be surprised,
pleasantly surprised withwhat's, what money is like when
you.
(29:54):
When you open up a direct lineof communication with it,
instead of it going throughsomebody else, when you have a
direct line of communicationwith money, its character tends
to be really compassionate andkind and creative and forgiving.
But also boundaried won't put upwith your shit.
Wants to be closer to you, wantsto be friends, wants to work
together.
Like I have run this.
(30:14):
I'm not kidding hundreds ofpeople.
I do this in workshops.
I do this individually and moreoften than not, those are the
qualities of money when we openup a direct line to it, and
these are even like people whoare full on traumatized about
money.
I.
It was, it was that person orthat situation that was
traumatic.
Now, money itself actuallyreally wants to work with you.
(30:35):
Uh, so it's, it's a wonderfulthing that I use myself all the
time and I do a lot of workshopswith it, and it can start to
create this like beautifuldirect line.
And then when you have like afinancial decision coming up or
you're frustrated with yourself.
Write to money and have moneyright back to you.
It will help you decide what todo.
It knows and if you can slowdown and ask it, there's
(30:57):
incredible wisdom that's alreadyall within you about maybe a
direction you need to take orsomething you need to choose to
do.
Stoy (31:05):
I love that, love that exercise.
I'm about to start doing thatone.
Rachel Duncan (31:08):
I wanna hear, I wanna hear your letters back.
Yes.
Stoy (31:11):
I'm gonna start doing that.
Well, we appreciate you and weappreciate everything that you
do, both with the Money HealingClub, but also just in general
Rachel Duncan (31:18):
thank you.
Stoy (31:19):
The spirit in what you have is, is truly warming and
I'm so glad that I have someoneelse that I can relate to and,
and be a resource in this fightagainst.
I don't know what we'refighting, but I know it's not
what we need to be doing rightnow.
Thanks.
And our industry needs toimprove and I, I'm just glad
that you're part of that.
Rachel Duncan (31:34):
I appreciate so much being on the podcast you've
given me also podcastinspiration for, for my podcast,
so thank you.
Stoy (31:40):
Awesome.
Awesome.
Thank you.
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