August 8, 2025 • 27 mins
What if the key to thriving as a nonprofit leader isn't avoiding failure, but actively seeking it out? That's the counterintuitive wisdom Cathleen Armstead, founder of Sunshine Nonprofit Solutions, shares in this transformative conversation about developing a growth mindset during challenging times.
Whether you're leading a nonprofit through turbulent times or working to influence your organization from within, this episode offers actionable strategies for developing resilience, improving team dynamics, and creating a culture where everyone can thrive through continuous learning. As Kathleen reminds us, "We look at these turbulent times as an opportunity to grow stronger."
Ready to transform how you view challenges and failure? Listen now and discover why your biggest mistakes might become your greatest opportunities for growth.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Non-profits.
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making an impact?
Save big on Adobe Acrobat Pro,the leading PDF and e-signature
tool built for mission-drivenwork.
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Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
(00:24):
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub radio podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andjoined today by Kathleen
Armstead, who's the founder ofSunshine Nonprofit Solutions.
We're gonna be digging into atopic that I know every leader
is going to want to hear, so I'mreally excited for today's
words of wisdom from Kathleen.
So, kathleen, by way ofintroduction, tell the audience
a little bit about yourself andyour work with nonprofits and
(00:46):
the type of work you do.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I'm Kathleen Armstead and I was in the nonprofit Head
Start industry for over 25years and then I left.
As in the nonprofit industry, Iwas giving a lot of advice and
consulting as just part of myjob, and then I thought I could
reach more people if I left myposition and founded a
consulting company, and that'swhat I did, and currently I'm
writing a book called LeadershipDuring Turbulent Times for
(01:17):
Nonprofits, and so I'm reallyexcited to share some of my
findings and talk about whatworks and what I found out
doesn't work, and most of thosehave been my own mistakes.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Got it.
We'll definitely dig into a lotof that, and I think we can all
agree that these are ratherturbulent times.
Leaders are facing all sorts ofchallenges this year, whether
it's cuts to grant funding orreshuffling in organizations and
all sorts of pieces that havecome about this year that maybe
we didn't expect.
So definitely a good time forthe conversation.
(01:54):
Tell me a little bit about whatdrove you to write the book.
What did you see as the biggestissue that the book would
address?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
The biggest issue that I see is that nonprofit
leaders have to have a number ofdiverse skills.
They have to deal with people,they have to manage budgets,
they have to connect with thecommunity and then they have to
advocate.
And all of those sets ofdiverse skills.
Very few of us are born withthem and very few of us are
(02:28):
allowed to develop all of them,and that's why I decided to
write the book, sort of acompendium of how to get your
skills so that they encompassall the things a nonprofit needs
.
And as part of that, itoccurred to me as I was working
that advocacy and managingpeople depend on a growth
(02:48):
mindset and that new researchhas been very, very helpful in
my own dealings with nonprofits.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So explain that a little bit.
What does a growth mindset looklike?
Because I feel like it's one ofthose words that gets tossed
around a lot, Like if you justhave a growth mindset but nobody
really bothers to define whatthat is.
So let's break it down.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Okay, let me break it down.
Okay, a growth mindset isactually brought about from
research with kids with 10 to 12year olds is where it started.
And a growth mindset embraceschallenges and likes failure.
It's not how to deal withfailure, it's actively seeking
(03:30):
it out.
Because a growth mindsetbelieves that everything you can
grow all your talents, all yourintelligence, all your sports
skills everything can grow.
We are not born with talent, wedevelop it, and so growth
mindset began with.
(03:51):
How do we get children to nothave a fixed mindset?
A fixed mindset basically meansyou think that you are who you
are.
So for girls who are 10 to 12years old, they tend to say I'm
not a math person, versus I havenot developed the skills yet.
And we as a society tend toreward those children who
(04:16):
complete things quickly, thosechildren who complete things
accurately and especiallyaccurately and quickly.
Accurately and especiallyaccurately and quickly, when
what we should be rewarding isthose children who struggle with
something and then succeed.
It's a very different way oflooking at challenge and failure
(04:36):
.
Those people with a fixedmindset, especially kids, if
they don't succeed at somethingeasily, they think they're not
good at it and they're not smart.
So they withdraw fromchallenges, because challenges
will show you up.
And in adults I find that it'sthe imposter syndrome they feel
like they're not really good atsomething, so nobody can find
(05:02):
out their mistakes, so they hideit.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Um, so nobody can find out their mistakes, so they
hide it.
So my initial visceral reactionwas that around the first
sentence that you said there,around this idea of like, not
avoid, not even just avoidingfailure, but actually actively
looking for it, everythingwithin me goes oh no, I don, I
don't want that.
(05:25):
That sounds terrible.
Can I please just grow withoutit?
Sounds like a much better planto me.
So how do we?
Because I'm going to assume Idon't want to paint with a broad
brush, but I'm going to assumethat most of the people
listening would have the samereaction as I did, right?
So if that's our reaction,where do we start to change it?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So most of us want to have a growth mindset.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Sure, it sounds like a great idea, but I don't want
the failure that comes with it.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Okay, that was my reaction.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, I don't want the critical feedback, Normal
human I would think yes it isthe very first time you seek out
failure is the hardest.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So you try something that you either have never tried
before and have always wantedto try, or you know, perhaps
your boss gives you something totry.
And what you have to believe inyourself and this takes a lot
of reflection, and for me it wasa lot of journaling was my
(06:30):
talents are not developed yet,and the yet is a perfect word.
The other thing is looking atpeople who have a growth mindset
.
How would this person describewhat I'm feeling?
So most of us get that anxiousfeeling in our stomach and in
(06:51):
our brains.
Yes, it's like you know,everybody calls it butterflies,
but it's more like bouldersknocking around in your stomach.
The thing is, is to separateyourself from your performance?
Is to separate yourself fromyour performance, okay, and to
congratulate yourself and rewardyourself for every small step
that you take and every time youseek out feedback, because
(07:15):
growth mindset is about effort,intentional effort and seeking
the feedback.
What am I doing wrong In mycollege students?
What they'll do when they get abad grade on a test is they'll
try and do the same strategyagain.
They'll highlight the book.
They'll read the book again.
(07:36):
That didn't work the first timefor them.
What they need to do is go backto their professor and say
where am I wrong?
And that takes a growth mindsetand that is developed by
telling yourself I have notdeveloped it yet.
I'm new to this, I don't expectmyself to have developed it yet
.
And this is an opportunity, nota challenge, but an opportunity
(08:00):
.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
That's so good Because you're right.
What's the quote?
The definition of insanity isdoing the same thing over and
over again and expectingdifferent results.
If I keep doing the same thing,nothing's going to change,
right?
But again, it's so much easierto just keep doing what I know,
right.
The challenge is embracing thatnew.
(08:25):
So I guess my two questions andyou can decide which way you
want to go.
First, one would be if someoneis finding themselves maybe in a
position where they are not theleader, they're in a department
, they're working for someone,but they want to embrace this
(08:45):
growth mindset to get them tothe next level, where do they
start, especially if maybe theyhave a leader that doesn't
encourage that?
And the second would be on theflip side, as leaders, as heads
of organizations, what can we do?
Culture wise to model?
Model that or make sure thatwe're building a team and a
(09:07):
culture where failure is okay,so people have the freedom to
develop that.
I'd love to explore both sides.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Let me start with the leader, because some new
research has gone on.
This research is actually onthe ground observation.
So there are three in fact inthis research, but I'll only
focus on one, and that researchis at Xerox, which was a failing
company, and it's much easierto see a failing company in the
(09:36):
business world.
They're not making money, it'svery clear, and part of it was
they had a leader of a fixedmindset, and a leader with a
fixed mindset, especially in thecorporate world, tends to
surround themselves with peoplewho are loyal, in other words,
people who will support whatthey say.
(09:56):
What President Lincoln, of allpeople, did in his cabinet was
he invited all his adversariesto be on his cabinet, okay, okay
, figuring he would have abetter growth mindset though
that wasn't called that at thetime but he put people around
him who were just going to pointout his defects in whatever
(10:20):
policy.
So that's what a leader needsto do is to have people on his
or her management team that arepredisposed to point out what is
not going to work, okay.
So this is how a leader starts.
At Xerox, they started withthat.
(10:41):
That was the first step, butthe second step was to start
valuing people who made mistakesand learned from them.
Not who just made mistakes, butthose who made mistakes and
learned from them.
Not who just made mistakes, butthose who made mistakes and
learned.
Okay, so their efforts gotbetter and better.
So what we reward, both in thenonprofit and profit world, is
(11:02):
employee of the month, somebodywho did something very well.
Okay, that's not supporting thegrowth mindset it is a support.
It's not invaluable, but it'snot supporting a growth mindset
which will lead to far moregrowth in your organization.
Xerox spent the first year withthis kind of diverse people
(11:25):
around them and, uh, modeling,rewarding and not punishing
mistakes.
As long as you learn from themand after the first year, they
were in the magazine Time as oneof the worst corporations.
So it doesn't come about fast.
However, within three years, byconstantly valuing it, by
(11:47):
constantly talking to theiremployees, what did you learn
from that?
Whether it was a success or afailure, what did you learn?
What are you going to dodifferent?
Who have you sought advice for?
And they made up theirevaluations to mimic those
questions.
And every meeting started with.
You had to start with somethingyou were struggling with and
(12:10):
what you plan to do, and thenhave people give you ideas.
After four years, they were likephenomenal.
They had like tripled theirbottom line and they had a
retention rate of employees thatwas far higher than in the
industry and people were happy.
So there were, you know, anumber of great things that went
(12:32):
on.
So, as a leader, it's first ofall recognizing what it is,
reflecting on it, spreading thatyou value it and then
constantly questioning what arewe learning and where can we go
from here?
And where can we go from here?
It also helps to have somebodycome in and train.
(12:52):
This is what happens in thebrain.
You build more connections andwe can see it now visually, see
it on MRIs and what they callPET scans.
What is up in the brain whenyou make a mistake?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
It's far more active than when you're succeeding.
Okay, so I guess let's go backto the flip side, though,
because if somebody is on a teamand they would love to embrace
this mindset, but they might nothave a leader or manager who's
down with this, go ahead andmake mistakes, concepts.
What can those folks do to kindof drive that from the bottom
up?
Or are there ways that they cando it for themselves?
(13:33):
What would that look like?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Read about people who have a growth mindset.
You know great inventors,explorers, presidents, and
(13:59):
seeing how they think about it.
There are some books,especially in sports, that show
coaches.
Many of them have a growthmindset.
Okay, john Wooden is abasketball coach at UCLA and he
won 10 national championshipsand coached many of his players
to go on to be pros, and themost famous one was Kareem
Abdul-Jabbar, and he wrote abook about John Wooden and
(14:21):
explicitly talked about how JohnWooden would coach his players.
Kareem took that information youknow digression here.
Kareem is my favoritebasketball player of all times.
He took that information to ateam and, of course, he was the
(14:41):
star of the team, but he wasn'talways and he spread the word
about how to embrace mistakes,how to learn from them, how to
seek feedback so that you'rebetter, how to practice that
feedback and how to keep goingback to your most strongest
(15:05):
critic and get that information.
And by simply modeling it andtalking about it explicitly
although it wasn't growthmindset at that time, but it was
the same concepts talking aboutit explicitly.
It's learning from my mistakesand learning from my successes
and doing something differentevery day.
(15:26):
1% better Okay, it's not if Iwin or lose, it's if I'm 1%
better in that practice in thatnext day, and that's something
that employees can do when theydon't have a leader.
It is much more difficult to doit bottom up, yeah, but it does
(15:46):
work, especially if you modeland talk about it a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
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I want to go back to somethingthat you had said in the Xerox
(16:47):
example, because I think thereis, within the nonprofit space,
something that we all strugglewith is turnover and retention.
There can be a lot of reasonsfor that.
Nonprofit burnout is real andthere are definite issues that
need to be addressed, but I'mcurious how creating a culture
around this is impacting thosetwo things specifically, because
I know that can be.
Such a challenge for nonprofitleaders is to retain that talent
(17:10):
, keep them engaged and keepthem moving forward.
So how do those two thingscorrelate?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
So growth mindset in a culture is very conducive to
retention.
It doesn't really do much forrecruitment, okay, but one of
the things we do is we hiresomebody and then we hire them
to see if they're a fit or not.
Okay, so growth mindset willhire for a growth mindset, if
(17:40):
you want it.
In the culture.
There was a famous ballerinaand she became a master teacher
and what she did was when shewas trying to select who would
(18:02):
be her student it was a verycompetitive program is she would
put them all in a class andthat was how she selected.
The students were those whoasked for criticism, those who
were talented and really preenedor really congratulated
themselves.
When she gave them positivefeedback, she screened out.
(18:25):
She was looking for someone whowanted to always improve, not
someone who wanted todemonstrate their success, and
that's one of the ways that, ifyou actually talk about growth
mindset in the interview, youcan screen for people you can
look for, asking what was yourbiggest mistake?
(18:46):
What have you ever done thatyou really regretted and how did
you deal with it?
Nasa does that, by the way,really, yeah, they will not hire
unless somebody has made a bigmistake, because they're more
concerned about learning frommistakes than actually not ever
making them.
But in retention, employees,both the nonprofit and profit
(19:12):
sector, are saying it's toolittle pay for too much stress.
The growth mindset reduces alot of the stress.
It doesn't do anything for thepay I'll have to be honest for
that but it increases theretention rate, to be honest for
(19:33):
that.
But it increases the retentionrate, reduces the fear, reduces
the anxiety.
Because if you know that you'regoing to make a mistake and
that it's not going to bepunished, you're more likely to
try something that might workand if it doesn't work, you're
more likely to improve on ituntil it does.
And those little improvementsmake your job easier, make your
clients happier and ultimatelyresult in an increased retention
(19:58):
rate.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Now, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I
would assume that creating thatkind of environment being
willing to share when you'vemade a mistake and what you've
done about it, or like theexample you gave before of
coming to a meeting and sayingthese are the things that I'm
struggling with, who's got someideas All of those require or at
least in my opinion, wouldrequire a level of vulnerability
(20:23):
that can be really hard in theworkplace, because we've been
taught to not show that kind ofvulnerability.
We've been taught to have thehappy facade, if you will.
Do you have advice for folkswho are looking to break down
some of those vulnerabilitywalls in their culture?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yes, yes, and it's very, very difficult.
I had a client who was new toher program and she was the
director.
So, of course, being new, therewas all this.
This is how we've always doneit.
Sure, well, how they'd alwaysdone it had gotten them in
trouble and that's why they hada new director, and she shared
(21:03):
with them her initial failuresas a director at another
organization and she said tothem I had encouraged her to do
this, and she said this is byhiding my mistakes and by
pretending it was all workingwell, I got in more trouble and
(21:25):
she was actually let go fromthat previous organization.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And as she's telling them.
She said I was convinced thatthe way it was being done was
the right way and I just neededto work harder.
And when she left, she waswithout a job for three months,
which is very, very difficult,and she did a lot of reflecting.
(21:51):
And then, when she and I didnot know her at that time, but
when she came into this newplace and she contacted me, we
talked about it.
I gave her some things to read,just some short articles, some
short blogs and she startedworking on having a growth
mindset and that first sharingof vulnerability actually turned
(22:17):
her organization around and ithappened.
She could feel the room, thetension started to lessen as she
was talking about her ownmistakes and they were pretty
bad mistakes and how she learnedfrom them, and people are
actually more receptive to thatthan we think they're going to
be.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I would think so, but for some reason that doesn't
feel like it takes away thenervousness of it, because I'm
just thinking about myself.
If I'm just thinking aboutmyself, if I'm in a situation
where someone is sharing astruggle like that with me, I
feel deep compassion for them, Ican empathize with that and I
want to be there and help andsupport.
But yet we just assume thatpeople aren't going to behave
(22:58):
like that towards us.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
We do.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
And you know a lot of that is our culture.
We're raised in a verycompetitive culture and you know
, in school we all sit in littledesks, we don't sit in a big
table, so all of that is natural.
That first time you have totake a leap of faith and I
always recommend to my clientshave somebody you trust with you
(23:24):
, okay, and who can be visiblyactively empathizing with you,
okay, have them out in theaudience going oh, that's
happened to me and just know youhave to like, believe it works.
After it works, that one timeyou're convinced and you start
seeing the results very, veryquickly.
(23:47):
In school, especially with these10 to 12-year-olds, they were
very afraid of being bullied andbeing laughed at and being
different.
You know all those things as apreteen you're afraid of.
And it's only the first timethat they feel they always feel
nervous.
That will not go away.
But it's only that first timethat they feel they always feel
(24:07):
nervous that will not go away.
But it's only that first timethat they're shaking.
And again having a friend,having somebody being a
cheerleader, you're doing agreat job, you're helping them,
you're not just helping yourself.
Yeah, I also urge my clientswhen they're going to share
their story.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Practice in front of a mirror Practice.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Now we can do it with Zoom Just record yourself and
you know it's hard, but you haveto keep in mind it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I love that.
So tell us a little bit moreabout the book.
When is it coming out?
When can we look for it?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I'm anticipating that it'll come out in December.
Okay, that's exciting, but itmight be January.
It's been slowed down becauseof all the turmoil going on in
my world, in your world.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
It will be called leadership during turbulent
times and I do anticipate it atthe end of the year or the
beginning of next year that'sawesome, very exciting, and if
someone wanted to find out moreeither about you or your work,
or connect with you a little bitmore about this, what's the
best way to do that?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
The best way is through my email, which is
Kathleen C-A-T-H-L-E-E-N atsunshine, nonprofitsolutionscom.
And that's all one word.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
All right, perfect.
So, as we wrap up today, thequestion that I've been asking
everyone so far this year is ifyou could give one piece of
advice to nonprofitprofessionals, whether it's
maybe an encouragement or apiece of wisdom.
What would you say to thosefolks right now?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's kind of a two-part to what I would say.
First of all, I would say Iknow this is going to date me,
but I grew up in the 60s andthings were worse then and we
lived through that.
We not only lived through that,we thrived through that.
So this is what we're going todo we look at these turbulent
times as an opportunity to growstronger, have a growth mindset.
(26:11):
What can we learn from howpeople are treating us?
We will survive.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
We will even thrive okay, and was there a second
part to that?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
second part is be sure to develop a growth mindset
in your culture.
Grab the book mindset and grabanything around that, or
Performance Paradox.
Those are two great books aboutgrowth mindset and that will
really help you look at this asan opportunity.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Fantastic.
I love that.
I am a giant reader, so I amall for any encouragement that
says pick up this particularbook.
Excellent, awesome, kathleen,thank you so much.
I really appreciated theconversation.
It's some really good insightsfor leaders around this culture
and especially in today'sculture.
Those are really helpful pieces.
(27:03):
So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Again, my guest has beenKathleen Armstead, who is the
founder of Sunshine NonprofitSolutions.
We appreciate you listening.
We appreciate, kathleen forbeing here.
My name is megan, I am the hostof nonprofit hub radio and
we'll see you next time.
Non-profits.
Are you ready to spend lesstime on paperwork and more time
making an impact?
Save big on Adobe Acrobat Pro,the leading PDF and e-signature
tool built for mission-drivenwork.
Apply for your discount now atadobecom.
Slash nonprofits, slash acrobat.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
(00:24):
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub radio podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andjoined today by Kathleen
Armstead, who's the founder ofSunshine Nonprofit Solutions.
We're gonna be digging into atopic that I know every leader
is going to want to hear, so I'mreally excited for today's
words of wisdom from Kathleen.
So, kathleen, by way ofintroduction, tell the audience
a little bit about yourself andyour work with nonprofits and
(00:46):
the type of work you do.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I'm Kathleen Armstead and I was in the nonprofit Head
Start industry for over 25years and then I left.
As in the nonprofit industry, Iwas giving a lot of advice and
consulting as just part of myjob, and then I thought I could
reach more people if I left myposition and founded a
consulting company, and that'swhat I did, and currently I'm
writing a book called LeadershipDuring Turbulent Times for
(01:17):
Nonprofits, and so I'm reallyexcited to share some of my
findings and talk about whatworks and what I found out
doesn't work, and most of thosehave been my own mistakes.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Got it.
We'll definitely dig into a lotof that, and I think we can all
agree that these are ratherturbulent times.
Leaders are facing all sorts ofchallenges this year, whether
it's cuts to grant funding orreshuffling in organizations and
all sorts of pieces that havecome about this year that maybe
we didn't expect.
So definitely a good time forthe conversation.
(01:54):
Tell me a little bit about whatdrove you to write the book.
What did you see as the biggestissue that the book would
address?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
The biggest issue that I see is that nonprofit
leaders have to have a number ofdiverse skills.
They have to deal with people,they have to manage budgets,
they have to connect with thecommunity and then they have to
advocate.
And all of those sets ofdiverse skills.
Very few of us are born withthem and very few of us are
(02:28):
allowed to develop all of them,and that's why I decided to
write the book, sort of acompendium of how to get your
skills so that they encompassall the things a nonprofit needs
.
And as part of that, itoccurred to me as I was working
that advocacy and managingpeople depend on a growth
(02:48):
mindset and that new researchhas been very, very helpful in
my own dealings with nonprofits.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So explain that a little bit.
What does a growth mindset looklike?
Because I feel like it's one ofthose words that gets tossed
around a lot, Like if you justhave a growth mindset but nobody
really bothers to define whatthat is.
So let's break it down.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Okay, let me break it down.
Okay, a growth mindset isactually brought about from
research with kids with 10 to 12year olds is where it started.
And a growth mindset embraceschallenges and likes failure.
It's not how to deal withfailure, it's actively seeking
(03:30):
it out.
Because a growth mindsetbelieves that everything you can
grow all your talents, all yourintelligence, all your sports
skills everything can grow.
We are not born with talent, wedevelop it, and so growth
mindset began with.
(03:51):
How do we get children to nothave a fixed mindset?
A fixed mindset basically meansyou think that you are who you
are.
So for girls who are 10 to 12years old, they tend to say I'm
not a math person, versus I havenot developed the skills yet.
And we as a society tend toreward those children who
(04:16):
complete things quickly, thosechildren who complete things
accurately and especiallyaccurately and quickly.
Accurately and especiallyaccurately and quickly, when
what we should be rewarding isthose children who struggle with
something and then succeed.
It's a very different way oflooking at challenge and failure
(04:36):
.
Those people with a fixedmindset, especially kids, if
they don't succeed at somethingeasily, they think they're not
good at it and they're not smart.
So they withdraw fromchallenges, because challenges
will show you up.
And in adults I find that it'sthe imposter syndrome they feel
like they're not really good atsomething, so nobody can find
(05:02):
out their mistakes, so they hideit.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Um, so nobody can find out their mistakes, so they
hide it.
So my initial visceral reactionwas that around the first
sentence that you said there,around this idea of like, not
avoid, not even just avoidingfailure, but actually actively
looking for it, everythingwithin me goes oh no, I don, I
don't want that.
(05:25):
That sounds terrible.
Can I please just grow withoutit?
Sounds like a much better planto me.
So how do we?
Because I'm going to assume Idon't want to paint with a broad
brush, but I'm going to assumethat most of the people
listening would have the samereaction as I did, right?
So if that's our reaction,where do we start to change it?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
So most of us want to have a growth mindset.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Sure, it sounds like a great idea, but I don't want
the failure that comes with it.
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Okay, that was my reaction.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, I don't want the critical feedback, Normal
human I would think yes it isthe very first time you seek out
failure is the hardest.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
So you try something that you either have never tried
before and have always wantedto try, or you know, perhaps
your boss gives you something totry.
And what you have to believe inyourself and this takes a lot
of reflection, and for me it wasa lot of journaling was my
(06:30):
talents are not developed yet,and the yet is a perfect word.
The other thing is looking atpeople who have a growth mindset
.
How would this person describewhat I'm feeling?
So most of us get that anxiousfeeling in our stomach and in
(06:51):
our brains.
Yes, it's like you know,everybody calls it butterflies,
but it's more like bouldersknocking around in your stomach.
The thing is, is to separateyourself from your performance?
Is to separate yourself fromyour performance, okay, and to
congratulate yourself and rewardyourself for every small step
that you take and every time youseek out feedback, because
(07:15):
growth mindset is about effort,intentional effort and seeking
the feedback.
What am I doing wrong In mycollege students?
What they'll do when they get abad grade on a test is they'll
try and do the same strategyagain.
They'll highlight the book.
They'll read the book again.
(07:36):
That didn't work the first timefor them.
What they need to do is go backto their professor and say
where am I wrong?
And that takes a growth mindsetand that is developed by
telling yourself I have notdeveloped it yet.
I'm new to this, I don't expectmyself to have developed it yet
.
And this is an opportunity, nota challenge, but an opportunity
(08:00):
.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
That's so good Because you're right.
What's the quote?
The definition of insanity isdoing the same thing over and
over again and expectingdifferent results.
If I keep doing the same thing,nothing's going to change,
right?
But again, it's so much easierto just keep doing what I know,
right.
The challenge is embracing thatnew.
(08:25):
So I guess my two questions andyou can decide which way you
want to go.
First, one would be if someoneis finding themselves maybe in a
position where they are not theleader, they're in a department
, they're working for someone,but they want to embrace this
(08:45):
growth mindset to get them tothe next level, where do they
start, especially if maybe theyhave a leader that doesn't
encourage that?
And the second would be on theflip side, as leaders, as heads
of organizations, what can we do?
Culture wise to model?
Model that or make sure thatwe're building a team and a
(09:07):
culture where failure is okay,so people have the freedom to
develop that.
I'd love to explore both sides.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Let me start with the leader, because some new
research has gone on.
This research is actually onthe ground observation.
So there are three in fact inthis research, but I'll only
focus on one, and that researchis at Xerox, which was a failing
company, and it's much easierto see a failing company in the
(09:36):
business world.
They're not making money, it'svery clear, and part of it was
they had a leader of a fixedmindset, and a leader with a
fixed mindset, especially in thecorporate world, tends to
surround themselves with peoplewho are loyal, in other words,
people who will support whatthey say.
(09:56):
What President Lincoln, of allpeople, did in his cabinet was
he invited all his adversariesto be on his cabinet, okay, okay
, figuring he would have abetter growth mindset though
that wasn't called that at thetime but he put people around
him who were just going to pointout his defects in whatever
(10:20):
policy.
So that's what a leader needsto do is to have people on his
or her management team that arepredisposed to point out what is
not going to work, okay.
So this is how a leader starts.
At Xerox, they started withthat.
(10:41):
That was the first step, butthe second step was to start
valuing people who made mistakesand learned from them.
Not who just made mistakes, butthose who made mistakes and
learned from them.
Not who just made mistakes, butthose who made mistakes and
learned.
Okay, so their efforts gotbetter and better.
So what we reward, both in thenonprofit and profit world, is
(11:02):
employee of the month, somebodywho did something very well.
Okay, that's not supporting thegrowth mindset it is a support.
It's not invaluable, but it'snot supporting a growth mindset
which will lead to far moregrowth in your organization.
Xerox spent the first year withthis kind of diverse people
(11:25):
around them and, uh, modeling,rewarding and not punishing
mistakes.
As long as you learn from themand after the first year, they
were in the magazine Time as oneof the worst corporations.
So it doesn't come about fast.
However, within three years, byconstantly valuing it, by
(11:47):
constantly talking to theiremployees, what did you learn
from that?
Whether it was a success or afailure, what did you learn?
What are you going to dodifferent?
Who have you sought advice for?
And they made up theirevaluations to mimic those
questions.
And every meeting started with.
You had to start with somethingyou were struggling with and
(12:10):
what you plan to do, and thenhave people give you ideas.
After four years, they were likephenomenal.
They had like tripled theirbottom line and they had a
retention rate of employees thatwas far higher than in the
industry and people were happy.
So there were, you know, anumber of great things that went
(12:32):
on.
So, as a leader, it's first ofall recognizing what it is,
reflecting on it, spreading thatyou value it and then
constantly questioning what arewe learning and where can we go
from here?
And where can we go from here?
It also helps to have somebodycome in and train.
(12:52):
This is what happens in thebrain.
You build more connections andwe can see it now visually, see
it on MRIs and what they callPET scans.
What is up in the brain whenyou make a mistake?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
It's far more active than when you're succeeding.
Okay, so I guess let's go backto the flip side, though,
because if somebody is on a teamand they would love to embrace
this mindset, but they might nothave a leader or manager who's
down with this, go ahead andmake mistakes, concepts.
What can those folks do to kindof drive that from the bottom
up?
Or are there ways that they cando it for themselves?
(13:33):
What would that look like?
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Read about people who have a growth mindset.
You know great inventors,explorers, presidents, and
(13:59):
seeing how they think about it.
There are some books,especially in sports, that show
coaches.
Many of them have a growthmindset.
Okay, john Wooden is abasketball coach at UCLA and he
won 10 national championshipsand coached many of his players
to go on to be pros, and themost famous one was Kareem
Abdul-Jabbar, and he wrote abook about John Wooden and
(14:21):
explicitly talked about how JohnWooden would coach his players.
Kareem took that information youknow digression here.
Kareem is my favoritebasketball player of all times.
He took that information to ateam and, of course, he was the
(14:41):
star of the team, but he wasn'talways and he spread the word
about how to embrace mistakes,how to learn from them, how to
seek feedback so that you'rebetter, how to practice that
feedback and how to keep goingback to your most strongest
(15:05):
critic and get that information.
And by simply modeling it andtalking about it explicitly
although it wasn't growthmindset at that time, but it was
the same concepts talking aboutit explicitly.
It's learning from my mistakesand learning from my successes
and doing something differentevery day.
(15:26):
1% better Okay, it's not if Iwin or lose, it's if I'm 1%
better in that practice in thatnext day, and that's something
that employees can do when theydon't have a leader.
It is much more difficult to doit bottom up, yeah, but it does
(15:46):
work, especially if you modeland talk about it a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
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I want to go back to somethingthat you had said in the Xerox
(16:47):
example, because I think thereis, within the nonprofit space,
something that we all strugglewith is turnover and retention.
There can be a lot of reasonsfor that.
Nonprofit burnout is real andthere are definite issues that
need to be addressed, but I'mcurious how creating a culture
around this is impacting thosetwo things specifically, because
I know that can be.
Such a challenge for nonprofitleaders is to retain that talent
(17:10):
, keep them engaged and keepthem moving forward.
So how do those two thingscorrelate?
Speaker 2 (17:16):
So growth mindset in a culture is very conducive to
retention.
It doesn't really do much forrecruitment, okay, but one of
the things we do is we hiresomebody and then we hire them
to see if they're a fit or not.
Okay, so growth mindset willhire for a growth mindset, if
(17:40):
you want it.
In the culture.
There was a famous ballerinaand she became a master teacher
and what she did was when shewas trying to select who would
(18:02):
be her student it was a verycompetitive program is she would
put them all in a class andthat was how she selected.
The students were those whoasked for criticism, those who
were talented and really preenedor really congratulated
themselves.
When she gave them positivefeedback, she screened out.
(18:25):
She was looking for someone whowanted to always improve, not
someone who wanted todemonstrate their success, and
that's one of the ways that, ifyou actually talk about growth
mindset in the interview, youcan screen for people you can
look for, asking what was yourbiggest mistake?
(18:46):
What have you ever done thatyou really regretted and how did
you deal with it?
Nasa does that, by the way,really, yeah, they will not hire
unless somebody has made a bigmistake, because they're more
concerned about learning frommistakes than actually not ever
making them.
But in retention, employees,both the nonprofit and profit
(19:12):
sector, are saying it's toolittle pay for too much stress.
The growth mindset reduces alot of the stress.
It doesn't do anything for thepay I'll have to be honest for
that but it increases theretention rate, to be honest for
(19:33):
that.
But it increases the retentionrate, reduces the fear, reduces
the anxiety.
Because if you know that you'regoing to make a mistake and
that it's not going to bepunished, you're more likely to
try something that might workand if it doesn't work, you're
more likely to improve on ituntil it does.
And those little improvementsmake your job easier, make your
clients happier and ultimatelyresult in an increased retention
(19:58):
rate.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Now, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I
would assume that creating thatkind of environment being
willing to share when you'vemade a mistake and what you've
done about it, or like theexample you gave before of
coming to a meeting and sayingthese are the things that I'm
struggling with, who's got someideas All of those require or at
least in my opinion, wouldrequire a level of vulnerability
(20:23):
that can be really hard in theworkplace, because we've been
taught to not show that kind ofvulnerability.
We've been taught to have thehappy facade, if you will.
Do you have advice for folkswho are looking to break down
some of those vulnerabilitywalls in their culture?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yes, yes, and it's very, very difficult.
I had a client who was new toher program and she was the
director.
So, of course, being new, therewas all this.
This is how we've always doneit.
Sure, well, how they'd alwaysdone it had gotten them in
trouble and that's why they hada new director, and she shared
(21:03):
with them her initial failuresas a director at another
organization and she said tothem I had encouraged her to do
this, and she said this is byhiding my mistakes and by
pretending it was all workingwell, I got in more trouble and
(21:25):
she was actually let go fromthat previous organization.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
And as she's telling them.
She said I was convinced thatthe way it was being done was
the right way and I just neededto work harder.
And when she left, she waswithout a job for three months,
which is very, very difficult,and she did a lot of reflecting.
(21:51):
And then, when she and I didnot know her at that time, but
when she came into this newplace and she contacted me, we
talked about it.
I gave her some things to read,just some short articles, some
short blogs and she startedworking on having a growth
mindset and that first sharingof vulnerability actually turned
(22:17):
her organization around and ithappened.
She could feel the room, thetension started to lessen as she
was talking about her ownmistakes and they were pretty
bad mistakes and how she learnedfrom them, and people are
actually more receptive to thatthan we think they're going to
be.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
I would think so, but for some reason that doesn't
feel like it takes away thenervousness of it, because I'm
just thinking about myself.
If I'm just thinking aboutmyself, if I'm in a situation
where someone is sharing astruggle like that with me, I
feel deep compassion for them, Ican empathize with that and I
want to be there and help andsupport.
But yet we just assume thatpeople aren't going to behave
(22:58):
like that towards us.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
We do.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
And you know a lot of that is our culture.
We're raised in a verycompetitive culture and you know
, in school we all sit in littledesks, we don't sit in a big
table, so all of that is natural.
That first time you have totake a leap of faith and I
always recommend to my clientshave somebody you trust with you
(23:24):
, okay, and who can be visiblyactively empathizing with you,
okay, have them out in theaudience going oh, that's
happened to me and just know youhave to like, believe it works.
After it works, that one timeyou're convinced and you start
seeing the results very, veryquickly.
(23:47):
In school, especially with these10 to 12-year-olds, they were
very afraid of being bullied andbeing laughed at and being
different.
You know all those things as apreteen you're afraid of.
And it's only the first timethat they feel they always feel
nervous.
That will not go away.
But it's only that first timethat they feel they always feel
(24:07):
nervous that will not go away.
But it's only that first timethat they're shaking.
And again having a friend,having somebody being a
cheerleader, you're doing agreat job, you're helping them,
you're not just helping yourself.
Yeah, I also urge my clientswhen they're going to share
their story.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Practice in front of a mirror Practice.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Now we can do it with Zoom Just record yourself and
you know it's hard, but you haveto keep in mind it's worth it.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
I love that.
So tell us a little bit moreabout the book.
When is it coming out?
When can we look for it?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
I'm anticipating that it'll come out in December.
Okay, that's exciting, but itmight be January.
It's been slowed down becauseof all the turmoil going on in
my world, in your world.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
It will be called leadership during turbulent
times and I do anticipate it atthe end of the year or the
beginning of next year that'sawesome, very exciting, and if
someone wanted to find out moreeither about you or your work,
or connect with you a little bitmore about this, what's the
best way to do that?
Speaker 2 (25:14):
The best way is through my email, which is
Kathleen C-A-T-H-L-E-E-N atsunshine, nonprofitsolutionscom.
And that's all one word.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
All right, perfect.
So, as we wrap up today, thequestion that I've been asking
everyone so far this year is ifyou could give one piece of
advice to nonprofitprofessionals, whether it's
maybe an encouragement or apiece of wisdom.
What would you say to thosefolks right now?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
It's kind of a two-part to what I would say.
First of all, I would say Iknow this is going to date me,
but I grew up in the 60s andthings were worse then and we
lived through that.
We not only lived through that,we thrived through that.
So this is what we're going todo we look at these turbulent
times as an opportunity to growstronger, have a growth mindset.
(26:11):
What can we learn from howpeople are treating us?
We will survive.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
We will even thrive okay, and was there a second
part to that?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
second part is be sure to develop a growth mindset
in your culture.
Grab the book mindset and grabanything around that, or
Performance Paradox.
Those are two great books aboutgrowth mindset and that will
really help you look at this asan opportunity.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
Fantastic.
I love that.
I am a giant reader, so I amall for any encouragement that
says pick up this particularbook.
Excellent, awesome, kathleen,thank you so much.
I really appreciated theconversation.
It's some really good insightsfor leaders around this culture
and especially in today'sculture.
Those are really helpful pieces.
(27:03):
So thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Again, my guest has beenKathleen Armstead, who is the
founder of Sunshine NonprofitSolutions.
We appreciate you listening.
We appreciate, kathleen forbeing here.
My name is megan, I am the hostof nonprofit hub radio and
we'll see you next time.
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