August 15, 2025 • 34 mins
What if the key to greater nonprofit impact isn’t pushing harder—but leading differently? In this refreshing and deeply honest conversation, Kishshana Palmer—veteran fundraiser, founder of ManageMint, and author of Busy is a Four-Letter Word—challenges the toxic myth that busyness equals effectiveness. After a debilitating injury forced her to confront her own unsustainable pace, Palmer began reimagining leadership rooted in wellbeing, not overwork. She shares her Five-Star Wellness Plan—physical, mental, spiritual, financial, and community health—as a framework for reclaiming balance and breaking the cycle of burnout, especially for women and "oldest daughters" who often carry the heaviest loads. More than a personal wellness strategy, Palmer calls for a cultural shift in the nonprofit sector: one where self-care is embedded in professional development, rest is celebrated, and vulnerability is seen as strength. If you're exhausted by hustle culture or simply wondering if there's a better way to lead, this episode offers a bold, compassionate roadmap to sustainable impact.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:24):
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Kishana Palmer,
who's the founder of Managementand the author of Busy is a
Four-Letter Word and, oh man, Icannot wait to dig into just
that whole premise.
Oh, it's so good.
Okay, welcome in, kishana.
So glad to have you here.
Kishana Palmer, so glad to behere.
Oh, my gosh Megan Spear Okay sobefore we dig into that, because
(00:46):
, man, I would love us all toembrace that concept Tell us a
little bit about yourself andyour journey that led you to
this conversation today.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Absolutely.
For those folks who I have nothad the pleasure of spending
time with.
I'm Kashana Palmer and listen,friends I am a recovering
fundraiser.
I feel like every time I try toget out, they pull me back.
I have spent the last 25 yearsraising capital for
organizations to help them growand probably about 10 years ago
(01:15):
I decided the only way thatwe're going to have sustainable
organizations if we havesustainable teams and if we have
rested leaders and if we havefolks who understand that just
because this is your baby oryour passion or your commitment
does not mean you get to let goof the commitment to yourself.
(01:36):
And as somebody who was a highachiever and who got rewarded
her entire life for being busy,imagine, megan, that I had to
get to a point where I had tosay enough is enough, it is busy
already and really contemplatewhat would life be like for me
and for other leaders if wetried to do less so that we had
a shot at achieving more.
(01:57):
And that has brought me to mylife's work.
So I help everyday leaders livewell so that they can lead well
, and my team.
We go into organizations, bothsmall shops and large
organizations, to help theirteams ensure that they are
healthy so that they canactivate, amplify and accelerate
their mission.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I love it.
That's such a good word,because I do think there's such
a tendency in nonprofit you know, we're so passionate about the
thing and the work that we'redoing is so good, that it leads
to burnout.
And we are seeing it at thenonprofit, in the nonprofit
level, just at a, I mean, we'reseeing a mass exodus of folks
who are leaving the industrybecause they have just had
(02:37):
enough of that pace and thatfrantic have to go, have to go,
have to go all the timementality.
Oh, I think this is awell-timed conversation for sure
, absolutely.
So, let's start with the idea ofbusy as a four letter word.
What made you write the bookand what were some of your
biggest takeaways from there?
Oh, my gosh, because I was abusybody, I wish.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I could say it was more complicated than that, but
the reality was I was workingmyself to the bone and I wasn't
seeing the kind of results thatI thought I should be seeing.
And as I started to mature, youknow, your body starts doing
some different things as youseason in the crockpot of life,
(03:20):
and I realized that I wasoperating at this pace that I
did when I was in my 20s, but Iwasn't getting the results that
I thought I would get with moreyears of experience, with more
time on task, with the level ofexpertise I was developing, and
I just found myself doing moreand more busy work.
But it wasn't just at work, itwas at home.
So I'm a solo mom and so I hadto be the class mom and I had to
(03:43):
be the soccer mom and I was thetrack mom and the swim mom.
All of my caregivers can, Iknow, identify with that.
And then I'm in leadershipposition in my organization and
I've got to make sure they seeme as smart and sharp and
strategic and I have to modelfor my teams.
You see how much pressure I'mputting on myself.
And then I'm raising all ofthis capital, and so that means
(04:03):
that I'm, in part responsiblefor people's paychecks, right,
and so I'm going and I'm goingand I'm going and I'm exhausted
and my body starting to hurt andmy back hurts, but I'm going
and I'm going and people arelike, yeah, oh, my gosh,
kashawna, you can do everything.
Why, you're everywhere?
And I started to feel like Idon't want to get accolades for
that.
Yeah, I'm in pain, y'all LikeI'm traveling with a blood
(04:27):
pressure cuff and a heating pad.
This is not okay.
No, and it was after the thirdtime my back went out, and this
third time I couldn't walk for aweek.
So imagine you're a whole grownwoman.
Mom has to help you make it tothe bathroom.
Yeah, that was a humbling momentfor me, and so I said okay,
(04:49):
kashana, you got to start doingthings differently.
You can't approach it fromanger, you can't approach it
from resentment.
What does it look like torecalibrate?
That's where busy came from.
It was literally I just startedtalking about it out loud Just
like socializing this idea amongleaders, and particularly women
leaders.
Like what does it look like forus to just say no to our kids,
(05:11):
to our partners, to ourvolunteer activities?
Just no.
And folks are like man up inarms Did your heart?
Did your stomach rumble?
No, the answer is no.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And no explanation.
I I have a friend who lives bythe mantra that no is a full
sentence, it doesn't need anysort of qualifiers on it, you
can just say no and that.
But, man, that's such astruggle because I think and I
think you're right, I think,especially as women, we are
conditioned to constantly tryingto have it all, be it all, be
(05:49):
the be all and end all, and soit feels like I'm if I say no.
Oh my gosh, what if I don't getanother opportunity?
What if I?
What if this thing doesn't comearound again?
What if there's so many whatifs in that process?
So how do you get over that?
And I'm asking because Ilegitimately have not yet gotten
(06:09):
over it.
So, please, I'm still workingthrough it.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I wrote the darn book .
Okay, talk about that.
So the reality is it is a workin process and one of the things
that I have really had to sitwith is we are not problems to
be solved and we're actually, um, not that important, and I just
want folks to just kind of sit.
(06:32):
We just not that important.
And it was to be by my daughter.
So I have a 19 year old, so youknow she thinks that she's all
the way grown and I remember Iwas seeing all of these
girlfriends and stuff who theirkids were doing their college
announcements or whatever, and Idid this big thing for her a
couple of years ago when shegraduated.
So I sent her a text message,megan, and I'm like, hey, I was
(06:53):
like you see all these peoplecopying my style, right, this is
me to my kid, right, and weback a text.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Mom, this has been going on for a really long time
and I was like what, what?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
are you talking about ?
I thought I was original.
She was like no, no, mom,you're special, but you're not
original.
Oh right, oh, that's not thetext anyone wants to get from
their kid, from anyone, fromanyone, but it just.
I sat with that hilarious to mebecause I was like yo.
She just said you are specialto me, but this is not original.
So one of the things that Iwant us to really start to lean
into is that, yes, we areimportant to some people, but
we're really not important toeveryone or as many people as
you think you are.
(07:35):
Yeah, and the person that weare most important to we are
ignoring, and that is ourselves.
We're ignoring going for thatwalk to let off steam.
We're ignoring getting oursteps in, even though we know
every time we do, we come backand our heart rates up and we
feel good and I feel great.
Yeah, we're ignoring thepleasure of just making a nice
meal because we're used tomaking these chicken nuggets and
(07:57):
these plain spaghettis withbutter and then eating off the
leftovers of our kids.
We're ignoring the fact that welove to garden because we're
racing off to this activity, orthat we're ignoring ourselves.
And if we want to be able tostart to plug back into what
matters to us, we've got tostart paying attention to
(08:19):
ourselves.
Oh, that's so good and I mean,it's one of those things, megan.
It's like, it's like a duh, butalso we're not right, right and
I, oh, I feel that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So I, during the pandemic, everyone else was
gardening and making sourdoughand I have no interest in
playing with dirt or anything inthe kitchen.
These are just not my skillsets.
I mean, I live like in themiddle of downtown pittsburgh.
There's no room for a gardenanyway.
But I was going through somestuff at the time and ended up
(08:50):
my pandemic project ended upalso being writing a book and I
felt that sentence that you justsaid like.
I wrote the book on it and I'mstill struggling with it,
because mine is around the ideaof letting go of should is what
it's called and freeingourselves from all these things
that people should do.
So very parallel tracks.
But man, but wouldn't it be sogreat if we could just like
(09:11):
write the book and then thatmade you the expert and you were
done with it and we didn't.
We didn't have to worry aboutpicking up all those
expectations or picking pickingup all that busy.
Wouldn't that be so nice?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
It's like that is not happening, because now you get
the stuff on paper and then youhave other people who are loving
what you're doing and then theysay to you here's what you need
to do, you need to follow, youshould on page xyz, like that is
what ends up happening.
So it's one of those thingswhere people expect me to do.
(09:46):
Every single thing that I wroteabout when, what I wrote and I
think how I wrote it was this isa discovery.
We're in this together.
Don't trust anybody who saysthey have it all figured out.
Yes, like that's where I'mcoming from.
I want you to know that I'mwalking alongside you, you to
know that I'm walking alongsideyou and I've written this thing
(10:07):
because when I had my moment ofhighest stress, it also
introduced highest clarity and Iallowed myself not to be a
problem solver in that momentand I allowed myself to just be
and if you are a high achiever,being Well, that's tough, tough,
tough, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So because I am am, I am also a high achiever.
I have that type a like drive.
Here's where I get stuck.
And you I'm gonna lean on youas the expert because I think
that you've got some wisdom inthis front.
Here's where I get stuck.
So I get to a place where I'mlike okay, I'm burnt out, I'm or
I'm on the edge.
I know where I'm headed, got tochange it.
And all of a sudden I makebrand new to-do lists that do
(10:49):
have meal prep every week,workout five days a week, get a
walk in every day, and I justreplace all of the busy from
over here with all of the newbusy, and I find myself equally
as tired trying to keep up withall of these other busies.
So I find the process a littleoverwhelming sometimes to think
(11:12):
about.
Okay, I know something needs tochange, but the process of
change itself maybe I'mapproaching it wrong seems also
overwhelming.
So I just stay put Right.
Yeah, help me out here.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So you are not alone.
You are not alone.
So here's what I would say.
So there is something that Icame up with called a five-star
wellness plan and basically whatI decided was at work, there
are about five markers that showif your team members are
engaged or not engaged.
Right, and they have to do withdo I feel seen and heard?
Is my work seen as valuable?
(11:45):
Am I being compensated for thework I do?
Do I have a best friend at work?
Is there community, essentially.
So I took that idea and I said,huh, when I'm stressed out, what
are the things that take a hit?
Well, my physical wellness andwell-being, my mental wellness
and well-being for me.
My spiritual wellness andwell-being, my financial
(12:06):
wellness and well-being.
And then my community.
If you're like me, you mightlock yourself in the house.
You don't want to come outRight, hide from your friends.
That isolation, absolutely thatisolation.
Okay.
So you see how you named allthose different things.
Everything you named that youput on your new to do list falls
in one of those five areas.
Right?
What I'm suggesting is do onething.
So I want you to look at yourphysical wellness and your
well-being, your mental wellnessand well-being, your spiritual
(12:28):
wellness and well-being,financial your community
wellness and well-being.
And just take one, because oneof those dominoes is going to
knock over all the dominoes.
You need to see success or youneed to put care and attention
into one of those things.
The most Interesting Okaythings the most Interesting Okay
(12:48):
.
So for me, when I startedreally pouring into getting my
finances right, all of a suddenI felt the courage to ask for
help.
Then I felt the courage to gofor that walk.
Then I didn't feel like I wasin despair, so I started to take
care of that emotional sideRight.
Then I started to play again.
So I was in a season where thatwas the thing that was taking
me out and so when I decided Igot to lock in and get that well
(13:12):
and get my mind around thatwell, all of a sudden it started
to creep me up and I started tofeel that energy to start doing
those other things.
Now it didn't mean I let go ofmy health, but it meant that I
wasn't killing myself to go workout three days a week.
Okay, if I walked more than 10000 steps in one week, you
better believe I'm going to getice cream.
I was going to celebrate.
Okay, but I was making surethat I wasn't over spending,
(13:34):
that I was making sure I openedthe mail, okay.
A lot of us have that problemwith our money that I was
looking at what my daughter'supcoming expenses are and
started to let go right right Tosay, hey, mommy's not paying
for your toiletries and yourhair and your this and your that
.
So we need to figure out howmuch that is and we need to
create a budget.
And if you can't pay for ityourself, you can't ever right,
(13:54):
like I had to pay attention tothe area of my life that was
causing me so much squeeze thatit was affecting everything else
.
So, of the list of things thatyou gave yourself to do, I would
go back to it and go.
If I only did one thing on thislist, which one would make me
(14:15):
more excited to do the otherstuff, if I got it right, if I
felt like, yeah, I did that.
Yeah, and for each of us, indifferent seasons of our life,
there are different things, sure, so then you just give yourself
the room to shift yourpriorities in the season of life
you're in.
So it's just like backing upfrom having to have this like
success or failure, win or lose,in or out, and it allows you to
(14:40):
live in a space that progressis the thing that you celebrate.
And for those of us who arehigher achievers, we know that
is hard.
Okay, my eye twitches a littlebit when you say like, oh, same,
same, same.
Okay, my eye still twitches,but I know that when I do it and
I have to hey, listen, I haveto work hard at that sometimes.
(15:02):
Okay, that means I have to gooutside and talk to myself.
That means I have to drive,sometimes my car and listen to
my favorite track for a good 15,20 minutes and driving
aimlessly to get my brain toaccept that it's OK to get this
small win.
So I'm not going to gate it bysaying, well, I didn't do these
97 other things.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
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Acrobat you mentioned there's.
(16:17):
There's five pieces of employeeengagement and retention.
That matters on that side, buthow do we, as leaders, make sure
that our folks see that's whatwe're working on right?
Because my, my, my fear wouldbe if I start to like maybe I'm
only working 45 hours a weekright, or maybe I'm pulling back
, maybe I am saying no to somethings, or not as engaged I.
(16:40):
My fear would be that my team'sgoing to start to think I'm a
slacker, or that I amdisconnected, or that I'm losing
my edge, whatever.
Whatever the case may be, andso I feel like the hustle gets
modeled so much easier.
How do we bring our whole teaminto that conversation so that
they're staying healthy too andunderstand what's being modeled
(17:02):
for them?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So one of the ways I made that transition is I made
personal goals a part of ourprofessional development.
Oh, I like that.
So I modeled for my team what Iwant to see.
So I would say yo, I don't knowif I mean remember when I
gained like a lot of weight.
And to me, when you gain a lotof weight, that means your
weight is hiding for you, it'scarrying you right, so you don't
(17:23):
really lose weight, you releaseit.
And so I was in this place whereI was breathing and I wasn't
talking about it, and we werebusier than ever and so
everybody's working late and Icame on to a Zoom call one
morning.
I said y'all, why didn'tanybody tell me I look crazy?
Everybody's eyes popped open.
I said y'all had me on herelooking like the Pillsbury dough
girl and nobody said a word.
(17:45):
Do you not care about me?
Of course, kashana, we careabout you, but we thought you
were going through a lot ofstuff and we never, never, never
, never, never, never, never.
Yeah Right.
And I said I need y'all to holdme accountable, to take care of
myself.
Because I said I know, if I'meating a pint of ice cream every
day, that somebody is overthere eating them chips and
(18:09):
somebody's doing something thatmeans we're getting salt, and
then we're not getting enoughrest, and then, like I was able
to talk through what I wasexperiencing, and not in a
self-deprecating way as much ina I am a human and not a robot
oh, but the humility to admitthat we're human is sometimes
counterintuitive to theleadership mindset.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I feel like that's a real.
That's a hard struggle for alot of folks.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Say it out loud Name the thing.
The probability is hiding.
Your team is noticing anyway.
Friends, yeah, okay, theyalready can see it.
So if you are a sandwichgeneration, so you're taking
care of a parent as a caregiver,you might have caregiving for
young ones, right?
For example, that means you'regoing to be at doctor's visits,
hospital visits, last minutecall outs.
(18:51):
Your mind might be on somethingelse because somebody has to
have treatment.
You don't have to give yourwhole team the whole skinny
right On the details, but youbetter let these folks know what
is happening in your life andgive your team room to support
you, because they know.
And once they see that you'revulnerable enough to do that,
then they might say, hey, here'swhat I'm navigating and
(19:15):
somebody's going to say let mehelp you with that.
All of a sudden, you startseeing people's strengths rise
and the places that people arestruggling getting managed by
somebody else on the team.
But it doesn't happen if youare not the first person and I'm
not talking about fullvulnerability.
Okay, oh gosh, you know thingsare so hard.
No, no, no, friends, your teamcan see right through you, right
(19:36):
?
So when I named that, I putpersonal goals in our
professional development.
For example, I want to know whowants to travel this year.
I want to know who's starting anew hobby.
I want to know what creativepursuits you have outside of
work.
You can't work on management'steam if you don't have a
personal pursuit.
That is in our interviewprocess, because you have a
(19:57):
founder who is a workaholic, anda recovering workaholic at that
.
So I have to create ways toensure that my team does not
follow suit, and that was one ofthe ways.
Right Like you've got to takean interest in your life, and
that is a part of our goals.
How did you do that this year?
How will we know you'resuccessful?
One of our markets is did youtake your time off?
(20:21):
Ooh, ooh, and that's I mean thestatistics, honestly for
Americans who leave vacation andPTO days on the table is
(20:43):
ridiculously high, where you canmake those decisions pretty
quickly.
What does it look like?
You have a staff of 20, 30, 40,50, 60 people, up to 100 people
.
What does it look like to justhave everybody put the days that
matter to them and theirpersonal lives on a calendar and
to see that mapped.
Then put the federal holidaysthat we still observe on the
calendar how many working daysof that map?
(21:03):
Then you actually see how manyworking days as an organization
that you actually really have.
Then you design to capacity.
What's going to happen is you'regoing to have to start making
some trade-offs on what'sactually important but not
urgent, what's actually urgentbut not important, what's
(21:24):
neither urgent nor important,okay, and therefore, what does
that reveal?
What's busy work?
And you start to get clear onwhat matters to accelerate, to
amplify your mission and that,to me, is the responsibility of
that leader and friends.
It's a gift.
It's a little bit of squeezefor a lifetime of ease, and I
(21:47):
have done it with organizations.
I've of squeeze for a lifetimeof ease, and I have done it with
organizations.
I've come in as a consultant tohelp folks do this over and
over again.
They all look at me crazy androll their eyes.
I'm like I'm not going tohappen.
And then, a year later, they'relike our entire life has
changed.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Because it works, yeah, interesting, okay.
So when you go into anorganization like that as a
consultant, I'm curious what'sthe because I?
So I've done some fundraising,consulting myself.
I feel like I could have ananswer to this.
What's the one thing that yousee that is true about every
organization?
(22:22):
because, let's be honest, we alllike to think we're super
unique and the problems we facecould not possibly be faced,
have never been faced by anyother organization, because we
are a special little duckling,we're so different, tiny little
unicorns each and every one ofus, right, yes, it's just not
real Again, you're not all thatspecial.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
You're not that, I mean you're not original, you
are special.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
You're not that I mean you're not original.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah, you are special Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So what's the one that you see when it comes to
this, especially around likeleadership and culture?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
That we do not seem to be able to accept in real
time that we're in the businessof relationships, yeah, which is
why you hear me talk aboutamplifying, activating and
accelerating our mission, thatis, people powered.
So if we can accept the premisethat we are in the business of
people, in the business ofrelationships, then we start to
(23:17):
look at maybe our fundraisingchallenges a different way.
Probability is high if it's apeople challenge that we're
having and not a cash problem,right, because money is just a
tool.
If we're having an attritionproblem, that is definitely a
people problem.
If we're having a growthchallenge, also related to
people, it might be related tosystems, but also people, and so
I think the thing that is thecommon throughput and we do a
(23:39):
lot of crisis management andchange management organizations
are looking to grow, they're ata point of inflection, they've
hit a wall, et cetera is haveyou looked at your people?
Do the people?
Do you know they exist?
Yeah, and that might seem likesuper simple, and yet it is the
thing that my clients, time andtime again, will run for the
(23:59):
hills.
And I have to go run and catchthem, because once we are able
to recenter the plot and focuson the humans that make our
organization thrive.
All of a sudden, you are moreapt to do the hard things.
You are more apt to make thedecisions that really will help
the organization shift, growright, have deeper or wider
(24:22):
impact, depending on where youare in your journey.
These are the things that weneed to do.
So that's the thing I see allthe time.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And then right, because it's easy to identify
the problem.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and Ifeel like, especially as
consultants, sometimes we getthat like we can see the broader
bigger picture.
Is that also, then, the thingthat you think people resist the
most on to change?
Oh yeah, I feel like for me,it's very easy for me to
(24:53):
identify these issues and theones that I see that are like
maybe a little unique, or justthose ones they embrace very
quickly but the big picture easylike if you could just nail
this one thing, everything wouldbe different.
Those are the ones where I getthe most pushback from leaders
every time.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Because they don't want to change.
They like the idea of doing anew thing.
Right, and let's face it, someof us just like to complain and
we're very comfortable in ourcomplaining pond and that's
where we just want to swim andwe like to complain.
And that a lot of times has todo with your family of origin,
how you grew up, and so when wedo our work, particularly when
we do enlarged organizationalchange work, I get all in people
(25:33):
business.
Okay, I want to know if yourfirst family, if your oldest
daughter or son, your birthorder, if your parents, got
divorced, what part of the worldyou grew up in, why?
Because those things are theriptides, the undercurrents of
whether your organization isgoing to get pulled over, and
you didn't even see it coming.
And so we address the humannessof how people live and work.
(25:55):
Yeah, we can focus on.
How do we then leverage what weknow and understand to build
capacity for what we need to doto be able to accomplish missing
Just out of sheer curiosity,are you also the oldest daughter
?
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I'm also the oldest daughter.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I'm also the oldest daughter yep, yeah, yeah so you
can tell right, I'm like you'regonna do this work, you're gonna
do it and that, oh, that's.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah, that is me, I will admit, and I just wonder
how to?
I would love to see, see thestatistics, like how many of the
folks who are running theseorganizations who are dealing
with this same problem, how manyof them are the oldest
daughters?
Yes, probably a lot.
I would guess a lot, a lot,because we are, admittedly, we
(26:40):
are a different breed.
Yep, oh we could do a wholeepisode, just, oh my god, let us
talk about it yeah, you cantalk about birth order all you
want and say what you want, butthat oldest daughter, that
oldest daughter, that's aspecial kind of human.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Okay, yeah, that's different.
And we're the ones who I alwayssay if you are an executive and
you do not have a therapistthat you are seeing on a monthly
basis when people come to coachwith me that is one of the
questions that I ask and if Iget into our assessments and I'm
like friend, you need about 16sessions on somebody's couch.
That is going to be a part ofyour leadership plan.
(27:17):
Use this good health insuranceand figure it out, because we
need that support and I thinkwhat leaders can model is that
it's okay to be supported.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It is okay to be supported.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
It is okay to be supported.
Yeah, it's okay to be supported.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Oh yeah, that's a hard one.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I heard somebody say Meganette, you know?
Oh, beyonce has the same 24hours in a day as everybody else
.
No, she doesn't.
You know why?
Because she's supported Chef,trainer, all pair for the
children, three personalassistants, a parker's in a pear
tree.
Okay, she is humans whose jobit is to facilitate her life.
Yes, and although we may nothave the luxury of having those
(28:00):
number of professionals asresources to help us, we can
access resources to be able tohelp us to operate at that
optimal level, and that's what Iwant for everybody and that is
what, in part, my book is about.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I love that so much.
So one question before we kindof move to wrap up.
So when we talk about this ideaof making maybe some smaller
steps and modeling that, if youcould tell people what, what's
the one where they should start?
Because even to me, thinkingthrough like here's the five
(28:33):
right, you could get any ofthese five.
Even that to me I can.
I maybe not in this moment, butthere have definitely been
times in my life where having tomake that decision feels super
overwhelming.
Yep, is there one that you seeconsistently where, like, if you
could just start here, whatwould that suggestion look like
today?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
so I just want to give everybody the hard news.
The answer is no.
The thing that you must do isstop.
And so for me, you see it, yep,yep, go ahead and breathe.
Yep, I get outside that door, Iput my feet in that dirt and
you know, I'm a city girl so Idon't really like that.
(29:13):
Okay, but I put my, I groundmyself.
You see, I'm holding on tomyself, because even just
telling you that makes my wholeheart start to flood.
I'm embracing, okay, and youhave to allow your body to feel
what you need to do.
First, your body is telling youexactly which move you need to
make, and in order for you to beable to hear it, you have got
(29:36):
to stop 10 minutes.
I'm not talking about 30 daysy'all and 30 nights, yeah, and
you've got to ask yourself whatdo I need to do next?
Hold on to yourself, breathedeeply and just wait, wait,
because what bubbles up?
(29:57):
That anxiety?
It's going to start to tell youin about three, four minutes,
and then you get to sit withthat.
That's why I said about 10minutes.
And then you go okay, what's inmy control around that thing,
what's out of my control?
And you start to just take yourtime and go through it one at a
time, but I want folks to stopand give themselves just a few
(30:20):
minutes to allow your body totell you where you need to focus
.
And y'all, I'm not somebody'shealer.
Okay, let me tell you right now.
Okay, I do come from a culturewhere homeopathic medicine and
holistic ways to approach thingsare a big part of what we do.
But I ignored it too for a longtime and I'm starting to learn
(30:44):
that if we start to really focuson coming back to ourselves,
pay attention to yourself,that's going to ourselves.
Pay attention to yourselfthat's going to affect your
leadership period.
Almost overnight Check me on it.
Almost overnight, oh, so good.
And if folks need some tools,start on page 101 of my book,
where I give you my cheesecakemethodology.
Okay, a little teaser for you,a little teaser.
(31:06):
A little teaser to take thatfirst step.
If you need some more help,okay.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
So if somebody is is like, yes, I need the book, or
wow, this is really interesting.
I'd love to learn more aboutkashana and her work and and
maybe have her come in.
How do we find you?
How do we connect with you?
Where do we find the book?
What's the best way to to learnall the things about you?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
well, busy is a four-letter Word is available at
all major booksellers, so theBarnes and Nobles, goodreads,
amazon and your favoriteindependent booksellers.
I'm probably the only KashanaPalmer that you will ever know
in the world, and so you canreach me at kashanapalmercom
forward slash book if you wantto look at my book, or just go
to my website, and I'm alsoKashana Palmer on all socials,
(31:48):
and I am the only one.
Okay, if you see a page thatdoesn't look like I did it, I
probably didn't do it.
Okay, somebody is trying tospoof me, but I am easy to reach
.
My team stands at the ready tohave conversations and I would
love, love, love to talk to morefolks about how to live well so
that they can lead well.
I promise you that if youcommit to yourself that you can
(32:11):
do that work okay and your lifewill change.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I love it.
So, as we wrap up, the questionthat I've been asking everybody
in this season is if you couldgive one piece of advice or
encouragement or wisdom tononprofit leaders right now.
Obviously it's been a toughyear for a lot of folks.
Yes, it has.
It is a tough season.
So, in that, if you could giveone piece of wisdom or
(32:34):
encouragement, what would thatbe?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
as we close out today , Ooh, recenter the plot,
friends, recenter the plot.
Focus in.
Take care of yourself, put goodthings in your body, make sure
you're getting the propernutrients you need, sweat the
basics, because in order for youto navigate things you don't
(32:56):
have in your control whetherpeople continue to give, if
funders decide last minute tochange their direction in
funding, if team members decideto get out of the sector
altogether and leave yourorganization, if something
happens in your community andyou have to rally in a way
you've never had before.
You can't do that if you aresick, and so if I had one piece
of advice take care of yourself,get sleep, get good food, get
(33:20):
rest.
And it doesn't mean rest, justmeans pausing, slowing down a
little bit, taking time foryourself, putting your face in
the sun so that you have theenergy to continue to fight the
good fight.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
So good.
That is an excellent word.
Thank you, Krishana.
There were so many nuggets ofwisdom in this.
Normally we try and pull outlike two or three to do video
clips.
I don't know what we're goingto pull because I just need to
play the whole thing foreverybody.
But thank you Really reallyappreciate all of your wisdom
and insights and appreciate youtaking the time today.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having meand listen.
Friends, y'all better be wellout there.
Okay, we are counting on you,so take care of yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Absolutely.
Again.
My guest has been KishanaPalmer, who's the founder of
management and the author ofBusy is a Four Letter Word.
Go find this book.
I'm telling you right now go doit.
Just so much good insight there.
Love to see it.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time you.
Non-profits.
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making an impact?
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Slash nonprofits, slash acrobat.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:24):
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Kishana Palmer,
who's the founder of Managementand the author of Busy is a
Four-Letter Word and, oh man, Icannot wait to dig into just
that whole premise.
Oh, it's so good.
Okay, welcome in, kishana.
So glad to have you here.
Kishana Palmer, so glad to behere.
Oh, my gosh Megan Spear Okay sobefore we dig into that, because
(00:46):
, man, I would love us all toembrace that concept Tell us a
little bit about yourself andyour journey that led you to
this conversation today.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Absolutely.
For those folks who I have nothad the pleasure of spending
time with.
I'm Kashana Palmer and listen,friends I am a recovering
fundraiser.
I feel like every time I try toget out, they pull me back.
I have spent the last 25 yearsraising capital for
organizations to help them growand probably about 10 years ago
(01:15):
I decided the only way thatwe're going to have sustainable
organizations if we havesustainable teams and if we have
rested leaders and if we havefolks who understand that just
because this is your baby oryour passion or your commitment
does not mean you get to let goof the commitment to yourself.
(01:36):
And as somebody who was a highachiever and who got rewarded
her entire life for being busy,imagine, megan, that I had to
get to a point where I had tosay enough is enough, it is busy
already and really contemplatewhat would life be like for me
and for other leaders if wetried to do less so that we had
a shot at achieving more.
(01:57):
And that has brought me to mylife's work.
So I help everyday leaders livewell so that they can lead well
, and my team.
We go into organizations, bothsmall shops and large
organizations, to help theirteams ensure that they are
healthy so that they canactivate, amplify and accelerate
their mission.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I love it.
That's such a good word,because I do think there's such
a tendency in nonprofit you know, we're so passionate about the
thing and the work that we'redoing is so good, that it leads
to burnout.
And we are seeing it at thenonprofit, in the nonprofit
level, just at a, I mean, we'reseeing a mass exodus of folks
who are leaving the industrybecause they have just had
(02:37):
enough of that pace and thatfrantic have to go, have to go,
have to go all the timementality.
Oh, I think this is awell-timed conversation for sure
, absolutely.
So, let's start with the idea ofbusy as a four letter word.
What made you write the bookand what were some of your
biggest takeaways from there?
Oh, my gosh, because I was abusybody, I wish.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I could say it was more complicated than that, but
the reality was I was workingmyself to the bone and I wasn't
seeing the kind of results thatI thought I should be seeing.
And as I started to mature, youknow, your body starts doing
some different things as youseason in the crockpot of life,
(03:20):
and I realized that I wasoperating at this pace that I
did when I was in my 20s, but Iwasn't getting the results that
I thought I would get with moreyears of experience, with more
time on task, with the level ofexpertise I was developing, and
I just found myself doing moreand more busy work.
But it wasn't just at work, itwas at home.
So I'm a solo mom and so I hadto be the class mom and I had to
(03:43):
be the soccer mom and I was thetrack mom and the swim mom.
All of my caregivers can, Iknow, identify with that.
And then I'm in leadershipposition in my organization and
I've got to make sure they seeme as smart and sharp and
strategic and I have to modelfor my teams.
You see how much pressure I'mputting on myself.
And then I'm raising all ofthis capital, and so that means
(04:03):
that I'm, in part responsiblefor people's paychecks, right,
and so I'm going and I'm goingand I'm going and I'm exhausted
and my body starting to hurt andmy back hurts, but I'm going
and I'm going and people arelike, yeah, oh, my gosh,
kashawna, you can do everything.
Why, you're everywhere?
And I started to feel like Idon't want to get accolades for
that.
Yeah, I'm in pain, y'all LikeI'm traveling with a blood
(04:27):
pressure cuff and a heating pad.
This is not okay.
No, and it was after the thirdtime my back went out, and this
third time I couldn't walk for aweek.
So imagine you're a whole grownwoman.
Mom has to help you make it tothe bathroom.
Yeah, that was a humbling momentfor me, and so I said okay,
(04:49):
kashana, you got to start doingthings differently.
You can't approach it fromanger, you can't approach it
from resentment.
What does it look like torecalibrate?
That's where busy came from.
It was literally I just startedtalking about it out loud Just
like socializing this idea amongleaders, and particularly women
leaders.
Like what does it look like forus to just say no to our kids,
(05:11):
to our partners, to ourvolunteer activities?
Just no.
And folks are like man up inarms Did your heart?
Did your stomach rumble?
No, the answer is no.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
And no explanation.
I I have a friend who lives bythe mantra that no is a full
sentence, it doesn't need anysort of qualifiers on it, you
can just say no and that.
But, man, that's such astruggle because I think and I
think you're right, I think,especially as women, we are
conditioned to constantly tryingto have it all, be it all, be
(05:49):
the be all and end all, and soit feels like I'm if I say no.
Oh my gosh, what if I don't getanother opportunity?
What if I?
What if this thing doesn't comearound again?
What if there's so many whatifs in that process?
So how do you get over that?
And I'm asking because Ilegitimately have not yet gotten
(06:09):
over it.
So, please, I'm still workingthrough it.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
I wrote the darn book .
Okay, talk about that.
So the reality is it is a workin process and one of the things
that I have really had to sitwith is we are not problems to
be solved and we're actually, um, not that important, and I just
want folks to just kind of sit.
(06:32):
We just not that important.
And it was to be by my daughter.
So I have a 19 year old, so youknow she thinks that she's all
the way grown and I remember Iwas seeing all of these
girlfriends and stuff who theirkids were doing their college
announcements or whatever, and Idid this big thing for her a
couple of years ago when shegraduated.
So I sent her a text message,megan, and I'm like, hey, I was
(06:53):
like you see all these peoplecopying my style, right, this is
me to my kid, right, and weback a text.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Mom, this has been going on for a really long time
and I was like what, what?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
are you talking about ?
I thought I was original.
She was like no, no, mom,you're special, but you're not
original.
Oh right, oh, that's not thetext anyone wants to get from
their kid, from anyone, fromanyone, but it just.
I sat with that hilarious to mebecause I was like yo.
She just said you are specialto me, but this is not original.
So one of the things that Iwant us to really start to lean
into is that, yes, we areimportant to some people, but
we're really not important toeveryone or as many people as
you think you are.
(07:35):
Yeah, and the person that weare most important to we are
ignoring, and that is ourselves.
We're ignoring going for thatwalk to let off steam.
We're ignoring getting oursteps in, even though we know
every time we do, we come backand our heart rates up and we
feel good and I feel great.
Yeah, we're ignoring thepleasure of just making a nice
meal because we're used tomaking these chicken nuggets and
(07:57):
these plain spaghettis withbutter and then eating off the
leftovers of our kids.
We're ignoring the fact that welove to garden because we're
racing off to this activity, orthat we're ignoring ourselves.
And if we want to be able tostart to plug back into what
matters to us, we've got tostart paying attention to
(08:19):
ourselves.
Oh, that's so good and I mean,it's one of those things, megan.
It's like, it's like a duh, butalso we're not right, right and
I, oh, I feel that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So I, during the pandemic, everyone else was
gardening and making sourdoughand I have no interest in
playing with dirt or anything inthe kitchen.
These are just not my skillsets.
I mean, I live like in themiddle of downtown pittsburgh.
There's no room for a gardenanyway.
But I was going through somestuff at the time and ended up
(08:50):
my pandemic project ended upalso being writing a book and I
felt that sentence that you justsaid like.
I wrote the book on it and I'mstill struggling with it,
because mine is around the ideaof letting go of should is what
it's called and freeingourselves from all these things
that people should do.
So very parallel tracks.
But man, but wouldn't it be sogreat if we could just like
(09:11):
write the book and then thatmade you the expert and you were
done with it and we didn't.
We didn't have to worry aboutpicking up all those
expectations or picking pickingup all that busy.
Wouldn't that be so nice?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
It's like that is not happening, because now you get
the stuff on paper and then youhave other people who are loving
what you're doing and then theysay to you here's what you need
to do, you need to follow, youshould on page xyz, like that is
what ends up happening.
So it's one of those thingswhere people expect me to do.
(09:46):
Every single thing that I wroteabout when, what I wrote and I
think how I wrote it was this isa discovery.
We're in this together.
Don't trust anybody who saysthey have it all figured out.
Yes, like that's where I'mcoming from.
I want you to know that I'mwalking alongside you, you to
know that I'm walking alongsideyou and I've written this thing
(10:07):
because when I had my moment ofhighest stress, it also
introduced highest clarity and Iallowed myself not to be a
problem solver in that momentand I allowed myself to just be
and if you are a high achiever,being Well, that's tough, tough,
tough, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So because I am am, I am also a high achiever.
I have that type a like drive.
Here's where I get stuck.
And you I'm gonna lean on youas the expert because I think
that you've got some wisdom inthis front.
Here's where I get stuck.
So I get to a place where I'mlike okay, I'm burnt out, I'm or
I'm on the edge.
I know where I'm headed, got tochange it.
And all of a sudden I makebrand new to-do lists that do
(10:49):
have meal prep every week,workout five days a week, get a
walk in every day, and I justreplace all of the busy from
over here with all of the newbusy, and I find myself equally
as tired trying to keep up withall of these other busies.
So I find the process a littleoverwhelming sometimes to think
(11:12):
about.
Okay, I know something needs tochange, but the process of
change itself maybe I'mapproaching it wrong seems also
overwhelming.
So I just stay put Right.
Yeah, help me out here.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So you are not alone.
You are not alone.
So here's what I would say.
So there is something that Icame up with called a five-star
wellness plan and basically whatI decided was at work, there
are about five markers that showif your team members are
engaged or not engaged.
Right, and they have to do withdo I feel seen and heard?
Is my work seen as valuable?
(11:45):
Am I being compensated for thework I do?
Do I have a best friend at work?
Is there community, essentially.
So I took that idea and I said,huh, when I'm stressed out, what
are the things that take a hit?
Well, my physical wellness andwell-being, my mental wellness
and well-being for me.
My spiritual wellness andwell-being, my financial
(12:06):
wellness and well-being.
And then my community.
If you're like me, you mightlock yourself in the house.
You don't want to come outRight, hide from your friends.
That isolation, absolutely thatisolation.
Okay.
So you see how you named allthose different things.
Everything you named that youput on your new to do list falls
in one of those five areas.
Right?
What I'm suggesting is do onething.
So I want you to look at yourphysical wellness and your
well-being, your mental wellnessand well-being, your spiritual
(12:28):
wellness and well-being,financial your community
wellness and well-being.
And just take one, because oneof those dominoes is going to
knock over all the dominoes.
You need to see success or youneed to put care and attention
into one of those things.
The most Interesting Okaythings the most Interesting Okay
(12:48):
.
So for me, when I startedreally pouring into getting my
finances right, all of a suddenI felt the courage to ask for
help.
Then I felt the courage to gofor that walk.
Then I didn't feel like I wasin despair, so I started to take
care of that emotional sideRight.
Then I started to play again.
So I was in a season where thatwas the thing that was taking
me out and so when I decided Igot to lock in and get that well
(13:12):
and get my mind around thatwell, all of a sudden it started
to creep me up and I started tofeel that energy to start doing
those other things.
Now it didn't mean I let go ofmy health, but it meant that I
wasn't killing myself to go workout three days a week.
Okay, if I walked more than 10000 steps in one week, you
better believe I'm going to getice cream.
I was going to celebrate.
Okay, but I was making surethat I wasn't over spending,
(13:34):
that I was making sure I openedthe mail, okay.
A lot of us have that problemwith our money that I was
looking at what my daughter'supcoming expenses are and
started to let go right right Tosay, hey, mommy's not paying
for your toiletries and yourhair and your this and your that
.
So we need to figure out howmuch that is and we need to
create a budget.
And if you can't pay for ityourself, you can't ever right,
(13:54):
like I had to pay attention tothe area of my life that was
causing me so much squeeze thatit was affecting everything else
.
So, of the list of things thatyou gave yourself to do, I would
go back to it and go.
If I only did one thing on thislist, which one would make me
(14:15):
more excited to do the otherstuff, if I got it right, if I
felt like, yeah, I did that.
Yeah, and for each of us, indifferent seasons of our life,
there are different things, sure, so then you just give yourself
the room to shift yourpriorities in the season of life
you're in.
So it's just like backing upfrom having to have this like
success or failure, win or lose,in or out, and it allows you to
(14:40):
live in a space that progressis the thing that you celebrate.
And for those of us who arehigher achievers, we know that
is hard.
Okay, my eye twitches a littlebit when you say like, oh, same,
same, same.
Okay, my eye still twitches,but I know that when I do it and
I have to hey, listen, I haveto work hard at that sometimes.
(15:02):
Okay, that means I have to gooutside and talk to myself.
That means I have to drive,sometimes my car and listen to
my favorite track for a good 15,20 minutes and driving
aimlessly to get my brain toaccept that it's OK to get this
small win.
So I'm not going to gate it bysaying, well, I didn't do these
97 other things.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
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Acrobat you mentioned there's.
(16:17):
There's five pieces of employeeengagement and retention.
That matters on that side, buthow do we, as leaders, make sure
that our folks see that's whatwe're working on right?
Because my, my, my fear wouldbe if I start to like maybe I'm
only working 45 hours a weekright, or maybe I'm pulling back
, maybe I am saying no to somethings, or not as engaged I.
(16:40):
My fear would be that my team'sgoing to start to think I'm a
slacker, or that I amdisconnected, or that I'm losing
my edge, whatever.
Whatever the case may be, andso I feel like the hustle gets
modeled so much easier.
How do we bring our whole teaminto that conversation so that
they're staying healthy too andunderstand what's being modeled
(17:02):
for them?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
So one of the ways I made that transition is I made
personal goals a part of ourprofessional development.
Oh, I like that.
So I modeled for my team what Iwant to see.
So I would say yo, I don't knowif I mean remember when I
gained like a lot of weight.
And to me, when you gain a lotof weight, that means your
weight is hiding for you, it'scarrying you right, so you don't
(17:23):
really lose weight, you releaseit.
And so I was in this place whereI was breathing and I wasn't
talking about it, and we werebusier than ever and so
everybody's working late and Icame on to a Zoom call one
morning.
I said y'all, why didn'tanybody tell me I look crazy?
Everybody's eyes popped open.
I said y'all had me on herelooking like the Pillsbury dough
girl and nobody said a word.
(17:45):
Do you not care about me?
Of course, kashana, we careabout you, but we thought you
were going through a lot ofstuff and we never, never, never
, never, never, never, never.
Yeah Right.
And I said I need y'all to holdme accountable, to take care of
myself.
Because I said I know, if I'meating a pint of ice cream every
day, that somebody is overthere eating them chips and
(18:09):
somebody's doing something thatmeans we're getting salt, and
then we're not getting enoughrest, and then, like I was able
to talk through what I wasexperiencing, and not in a
self-deprecating way as much ina I am a human and not a robot
oh, but the humility to admitthat we're human is sometimes
counterintuitive to theleadership mindset.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
I feel like that's a real.
That's a hard struggle for alot of folks.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
Say it out loud Name the thing.
The probability is hiding.
Your team is noticing anyway.
Friends, yeah, okay, theyalready can see it.
So if you are a sandwichgeneration, so you're taking
care of a parent as a caregiver,you might have caregiving for
young ones, right?
For example, that means you'regoing to be at doctor's visits,
hospital visits, last minutecall outs.
(18:51):
Your mind might be on somethingelse because somebody has to
have treatment.
You don't have to give yourwhole team the whole skinny
right On the details, but youbetter let these folks know what
is happening in your life andgive your team room to support
you, because they know.
And once they see that you'revulnerable enough to do that,
then they might say, hey, here'swhat I'm navigating and
(19:15):
somebody's going to say let mehelp you with that.
All of a sudden, you startseeing people's strengths rise
and the places that people arestruggling getting managed by
somebody else on the team.
But it doesn't happen if youare not the first person and I'm
not talking about fullvulnerability.
Okay, oh gosh, you know thingsare so hard.
No, no, no, friends, your teamcan see right through you, right
(19:36):
?
So when I named that, I putpersonal goals in our
professional development.
For example, I want to know whowants to travel this year.
I want to know who's starting anew hobby.
I want to know what creativepursuits you have outside of
work.
You can't work on management'steam if you don't have a
personal pursuit.
That is in our interviewprocess, because you have a
(19:57):
founder who is a workaholic, anda recovering workaholic at that
.
So I have to create ways toensure that my team does not
follow suit, and that was one ofthe ways.
Right Like you've got to takean interest in your life, and
that is a part of our goals.
How did you do that this year?
How will we know you'resuccessful?
One of our markets is did youtake your time off?
(20:21):
Ooh, ooh, and that's I mean thestatistics, honestly for
Americans who leave vacation andPTO days on the table is
(20:43):
ridiculously high, where you canmake those decisions pretty
quickly.
What does it look like?
You have a staff of 20, 30, 40,50, 60 people, up to 100 people
.
What does it look like to justhave everybody put the days that
matter to them and theirpersonal lives on a calendar and
to see that mapped.
Then put the federal holidaysthat we still observe on the
calendar how many working daysof that map?
(21:03):
Then you actually see how manyworking days as an organization
that you actually really have.
Then you design to capacity.
What's going to happen is you'regoing to have to start making
some trade-offs on what'sactually important but not
urgent, what's actually urgentbut not important, what's
(21:24):
neither urgent nor important,okay, and therefore, what does
that reveal?
What's busy work?
And you start to get clear onwhat matters to accelerate, to
amplify your mission and that,to me, is the responsibility of
that leader and friends.
It's a gift.
It's a little bit of squeezefor a lifetime of ease, and I
(21:47):
have done it with organizations.
I've of squeeze for a lifetimeof ease, and I have done it with
organizations.
I've come in as a consultant tohelp folks do this over and
over again.
They all look at me crazy androll their eyes.
I'm like I'm not going tohappen.
And then, a year later, they'relike our entire life has
changed.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Because it works, yeah, interesting, okay.
So when you go into anorganization like that as a
consultant, I'm curious what'sthe because I?
So I've done some fundraising,consulting myself.
I feel like I could have ananswer to this.
What's the one thing that yousee that is true about every
organization?
(22:22):
because, let's be honest, we alllike to think we're super
unique and the problems we facecould not possibly be faced,
have never been faced by anyother organization, because we
are a special little duckling,we're so different, tiny little
unicorns each and every one ofus, right, yes, it's just not
real Again, you're not all thatspecial.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
You're not that, I mean you're not original, you
are special.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
You're not that I mean you're not original.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Yeah, you are special Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
So what's the one that you see when it comes to
this, especially around likeleadership and culture?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
That we do not seem to be able to accept in real
time that we're in the businessof relationships, yeah, which is
why you hear me talk aboutamplifying, activating and
accelerating our mission, thatis, people powered.
So if we can accept the premisethat we are in the business of
people, in the business ofrelationships, then we start to
(23:17):
look at maybe our fundraisingchallenges a different way.
Probability is high if it's apeople challenge that we're
having and not a cash problem,right, because money is just a
tool.
If we're having an attritionproblem, that is definitely a
people problem.
If we're having a growthchallenge, also related to
people, it might be related tosystems, but also people, and so
I think the thing that is thecommon throughput and we do a
(23:39):
lot of crisis management andchange management organizations
are looking to grow, they're ata point of inflection, they've
hit a wall, et cetera is haveyou looked at your people?
Do the people?
Do you know they exist?
Yeah, and that might seem likesuper simple, and yet it is the
thing that my clients, time andtime again, will run for the
(23:59):
hills.
And I have to go run and catchthem, because once we are able
to recenter the plot and focuson the humans that make our
organization thrive.
All of a sudden, you are moreapt to do the hard things.
You are more apt to make thedecisions that really will help
the organization shift, growright, have deeper or wider
(24:22):
impact, depending on where youare in your journey.
These are the things that weneed to do.
So that's the thing I see allthe time.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
And then right, because it's easy to identify
the problem.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and Ifeel like, especially as
consultants, sometimes we getthat like we can see the broader
bigger picture.
Is that also, then, the thingthat you think people resist the
most on to change?
Oh yeah, I feel like for me,it's very easy for me to
(24:53):
identify these issues and theones that I see that are like
maybe a little unique, or justthose ones they embrace very
quickly but the big picture easylike if you could just nail
this one thing, everything wouldbe different.
Those are the ones where I getthe most pushback from leaders
every time.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Because they don't want to change.
They like the idea of doing anew thing.
Right, and let's face it, someof us just like to complain and
we're very comfortable in ourcomplaining pond and that's
where we just want to swim andwe like to complain.
And that a lot of times has todo with your family of origin,
how you grew up, and so when wedo our work, particularly when
we do enlarged organizationalchange work, I get all in people
(25:33):
business.
Okay, I want to know if yourfirst family, if your oldest
daughter or son, your birthorder, if your parents, got
divorced, what part of the worldyou grew up in, why?
Because those things are theriptides, the undercurrents of
whether your organization isgoing to get pulled over, and
you didn't even see it coming.
And so we address the humannessof how people live and work.
(25:55):
Yeah, we can focus on.
How do we then leverage what weknow and understand to build
capacity for what we need to doto be able to accomplish missing
Just out of sheer curiosity,are you also the oldest daughter
?
Speaker 1 (26:11):
I'm also the oldest daughter.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
I'm also the oldest daughter yep, yeah, yeah so you
can tell right, I'm like you'regonna do this work, you're gonna
do it and that, oh, that's.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Yeah, that is me, I will admit, and I just wonder
how to?
I would love to see, see thestatistics, like how many of the
folks who are running theseorganizations who are dealing
with this same problem, how manyof them are the oldest
daughters?
Yes, probably a lot.
I would guess a lot, a lot,because we are, admittedly, we
(26:40):
are a different breed.
Yep, oh we could do a wholeepisode, just, oh my god, let us
talk about it yeah, you cantalk about birth order all you
want and say what you want, butthat oldest daughter, that
oldest daughter, that's aspecial kind of human.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Okay, yeah, that's different.
And we're the ones who I alwayssay if you are an executive and
you do not have a therapistthat you are seeing on a monthly
basis when people come to coachwith me that is one of the
questions that I ask and if Iget into our assessments and I'm
like friend, you need about 16sessions on somebody's couch.
That is going to be a part ofyour leadership plan.
(27:17):
Use this good health insuranceand figure it out, because we
need that support and I thinkwhat leaders can model is that
it's okay to be supported.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
It is okay to be supported.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
It is okay to be supported.
Yeah, it's okay to be supported.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Oh yeah, that's a hard one.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
I heard somebody say Meganette, you know?
Oh, beyonce has the same 24hours in a day as everybody else
.
No, she doesn't.
You know why?
Because she's supported Chef,trainer, all pair for the
children, three personalassistants, a parker's in a pear
tree.
Okay, she is humans whose jobit is to facilitate her life.
Yes, and although we may nothave the luxury of having those
(28:00):
number of professionals asresources to help us, we can
access resources to be able tohelp us to operate at that
optimal level, and that's what Iwant for everybody and that is
what, in part, my book is about.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
I love that so much.
So one question before we kindof move to wrap up.
So when we talk about this ideaof making maybe some smaller
steps and modeling that, if youcould tell people what, what's
the one where they should start?
Because even to me, thinkingthrough like here's the five
(28:33):
right, you could get any ofthese five.
Even that to me I can.
I maybe not in this moment, butthere have definitely been
times in my life where having tomake that decision feels super
overwhelming.
Yep, is there one that you seeconsistently where, like, if you
could just start here, whatwould that suggestion look like
today?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
so I just want to give everybody the hard news.
The answer is no.
The thing that you must do isstop.
And so for me, you see it, yep,yep, go ahead and breathe.
Yep, I get outside that door, Iput my feet in that dirt and
you know, I'm a city girl so Idon't really like that.
(29:13):
Okay, but I put my, I groundmyself.
You see, I'm holding on tomyself, because even just
telling you that makes my wholeheart start to flood.
I'm embracing, okay, and youhave to allow your body to feel
what you need to do.
First, your body is telling youexactly which move you need to
make, and in order for you to beable to hear it, you have got
(29:36):
to stop 10 minutes.
I'm not talking about 30 daysy'all and 30 nights, yeah, and
you've got to ask yourself whatdo I need to do next?
Hold on to yourself, breathedeeply and just wait, wait,
because what bubbles up?
(29:57):
That anxiety?
It's going to start to tell youin about three, four minutes,
and then you get to sit withthat.
That's why I said about 10minutes.
And then you go okay, what's inmy control around that thing,
what's out of my control?
And you start to just take yourtime and go through it one at a
time, but I want folks to stopand give themselves just a few
(30:20):
minutes to allow your body totell you where you need to focus
.
And y'all, I'm not somebody'shealer.
Okay, let me tell you right now.
Okay, I do come from a culturewhere homeopathic medicine and
holistic ways to approach thingsare a big part of what we do.
But I ignored it too for a longtime and I'm starting to learn
(30:44):
that if we start to really focuson coming back to ourselves,
pay attention to yourself,that's going to ourselves.
Pay attention to yourselfthat's going to affect your
leadership period.
Almost overnight Check me on it.
Almost overnight, oh, so good.
And if folks need some tools,start on page 101 of my book,
where I give you my cheesecakemethodology.
Okay, a little teaser for you,a little teaser.
(31:06):
A little teaser to take thatfirst step.
If you need some more help,okay.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
So if somebody is is like, yes, I need the book, or
wow, this is really interesting.
I'd love to learn more aboutkashana and her work and and
maybe have her come in.
How do we find you?
How do we connect with you?
Where do we find the book?
What's the best way to to learnall the things about you?
Speaker 2 (31:26):
well, busy is a four-letter Word is available at
all major booksellers, so theBarnes and Nobles, goodreads,
amazon and your favoriteindependent booksellers.
I'm probably the only KashanaPalmer that you will ever know
in the world, and so you canreach me at kashanapalmercom
forward slash book if you wantto look at my book, or just go
to my website, and I'm alsoKashana Palmer on all socials,
(31:48):
and I am the only one.
Okay, if you see a page thatdoesn't look like I did it, I
probably didn't do it.
Okay, somebody is trying tospoof me, but I am easy to reach
.
My team stands at the ready tohave conversations and I would
love, love, love to talk to morefolks about how to live well so
that they can lead well.
I promise you that if youcommit to yourself that you can
(32:11):
do that work okay and your lifewill change.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
I love it.
So, as we wrap up, the questionthat I've been asking everybody
in this season is if you couldgive one piece of advice or
encouragement or wisdom tononprofit leaders right now.
Obviously it's been a toughyear for a lot of folks.
Yes, it has.
It is a tough season.
So, in that, if you could giveone piece of wisdom or
(32:34):
encouragement, what would thatbe?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
as we close out today , Ooh, recenter the plot,
friends, recenter the plot.
Focus in.
Take care of yourself, put goodthings in your body, make sure
you're getting the propernutrients you need, sweat the
basics, because in order for youto navigate things you don't
(32:56):
have in your control whetherpeople continue to give, if
funders decide last minute tochange their direction in
funding, if team members decideto get out of the sector
altogether and leave yourorganization, if something
happens in your community andyou have to rally in a way
you've never had before.
You can't do that if you aresick, and so if I had one piece
of advice take care of yourself,get sleep, get good food, get
(33:20):
rest.
And it doesn't mean rest, justmeans pausing, slowing down a
little bit, taking time foryourself, putting your face in
the sun so that you have theenergy to continue to fight the
good fight.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
So good.
That is an excellent word.
Thank you, Krishana.
There were so many nuggets ofwisdom in this.
Normally we try and pull outlike two or three to do video
clips.
I don't know what we're goingto pull because I just need to
play the whole thing foreverybody.
But thank you Really reallyappreciate all of your wisdom
and insights and appreciate youtaking the time today.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for having meand listen.
Friends, y'all better be wellout there.
Okay, we are counting on you,so take care of yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Absolutely.
Again.
My guest has been KishanaPalmer, who's the founder of
management and the author ofBusy is a Four Letter Word.
Go find this book.
I'm telling you right now go doit.
Just so much good insight there.
Love to see it.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time you.
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