July 11, 2025 • 26 mins
What does it take to build a lasting ministry without burning out? Eric Anderson, Director of Performing Arts at Urban Impact Foundation, shares lessons from 17 years of youth ministry in Pittsburgh’s North Side. In this powerful episode, Eric unpacks the simple but transformative priority framework that’s sustained him—God, spouse, children, ministry, personal recreation—and explains how faithfulness, not outcomes, is the true measure of success. With honest reflections on burnout, healthy boundaries, and the realities of nonprofit work, this installment of our Nonprofit 101 series is a must-listen for anyone seeking a ministry built to last.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andalong with me today is my
longtime friend, eric Anderson.
Super excited to dig into aconversation with him as we
continue this series onNonprofit 101 about what it
looks like to start well andmake sure that you're not
burning out in nonprofit andministry work, because that is
(00:47):
real and it is such a struggle.
So I know Eric has long been inthe ministry space and so he's
got a lot of wisdom to share onthat, so I'm super excited to
dig in, eric.
Welcome in.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, it's great.
So tell the audience a littlebit about yourself.
Full disclosure.
Eric works for an, so tell theaudience a little bit about
yourself.
Full disclosure.
Eric works for an organizationthat I am a big fan of and have
been a volunteer with, and adonor with for a very long time
now, so I'm excited for him toshare some of that expertise.
But tell the audience a littlebit about yourself and your
background in ministry and theorganization that you're with.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yes, well, my name, like you said, is Eric Anderson.
I am the Director of PerformingArts at Urban Impact Foundation
, and Urban Impact is anonprofit youth ministry that
works in community anddevelopment on the north side of
Pittsburgh students, the youthand their families and to be
(01:45):
able to disciple them in christso that they can become the man
or the woman that god createdand desired and designed them to
be, and so that's what I get todo in the arts, and whether
that's dance, theater,instrumental, vocal or
construction trades or technicalarts, or musical theater or
musical theater.
Yes, yes, I can't.
We have a tremendous musicaltheater coach.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I hear she's pretty great.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
She's pretty great, Really really wonderful.
Her tap dancing is great.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Oh, fantastic that's actually.
I've been doing this podcastfor a year and a half now and
strangely, my tap dancing skillshave never come up yet, so I'm
really glad that you broughtthat to the forefront.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yes, you'll have to do that just for a whole podcast
, just but yeah, so it's reallywonderful.
We just are in the arts.
We're about redeeming the artsfor Christ.
We want people to be able touse their gifts to glorify God
the way that he intended them to.
So it's it's wonderful.
I've been doing this since 2008.
And in some ways it seems likewow, that's a long time ago, but
(02:46):
really I love what I do andit's been wonderful just to be
able to do this for the past 17years.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
That's so good.
So I know you and your wifeLaura are not from Pittsburgh,
right?
So you came here specificallyto be a part of Urban Impact.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So when Laura and I were getting married, she was
living in Pittsburgh at the time.
She was here, and so I was inColumbus.
I was actually in a ministry inColumbus and we were praying
about where God really wanted usto be, and especially as we
were about to get married and wewere actually even considering
at that time potentially goingoverseas into missions or just
(03:26):
anywhere.
We're saying God, where do youwant us?
And God kind of made it clearthat we were supposed to go to
Pittsburgh.
And for me, I'm actually fromNortheast Ohio and so, being a
Cleveland sports fan, I was likeno God anywhere but here.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, just send me to Africa.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Asia.
So yeah, god kind of led ushere and started pretty much
immediately.
When it came here throughAllegheny Center, alliance
Church, found out about UrbanImpact and started volunteering
with them.
And soon after I startedvolunteering, tammy Glover, who
has been a longtime friend andsupervisor and started the
performing arts at Urban Impact,asked me to kind of come on and
(04:02):
help her with her vision ofstarting a performing arts
academy and just growing fromthere.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I love it.
So one of the things that Ithink is true is obviously true
about Urban Impact, but it'strue about a lot of
organizations when you'retalking about things that are
maybe urban ministry or specificto kids, nonprofit in general
but ministry specifically is nota normal nine to five, monday
through Friday.
These are not a regularschedule kind of thing, and so I
(04:32):
think that's part of wheremaybe some of the burnout can
start is that your job is allthe time when you're on the
front lines running programslike that.
So what have you done, or whathave you and your family done I
know Laura's been a huge part ofyour ministry what have you
guys done to really put someeither boundaries in place?
Or was there a season wheremaybe you didn't have those
(04:54):
boundaries in place that youfound yourself starting to get
burnt out?
And what did you learn fromthere about how to set some of
those limits up for yourself?
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Absolutely.
I mean, you're hitting allthese points right on the head
where, first of all, there'ssome great boundaries that you
want to set, kind of at thebeginning.
And early on, when I came on,tammy taught me this and she
learned it from her father, whowas also in ministry and kind of
put these things and it'sreally understanding the
priorities that you need to beable to go into.
(05:24):
And this is, you know, you canapply this to anything, but
especially it helps with keepingyourself healthy.
And when you go into ministry,and that's first priority is God
and being able to follow afterhim.
And then second, if you'remarried, is your wife or your
spouse, and then after that, ifyou have kids, comes your kids,
(05:44):
and then, following that is yourministry or your work.
If you're not in ministry, youcan say your work there.
And then, lastly, fifth, isthen your own recreational time
and kind of your fun time orthings like that, and it's
really important that those kindof stay in that order too,
because there are, we understand, a lot of times it's you want
(06:11):
to be able to have, maybe, yourfun time you got to keep down
there but also recognizing thatyour ministry can't be above
your family, or sometimes too,if you put you're going to
become professional in it andeven become above what God is
really calling you to do andmaybe God's calling you out to
do something else, so kind ofreally keeping those all in
there.
And of course we see thatechoed in through what Jesus
talks about in his greatestcommandment love God first and
(06:32):
then love others and thenputting yourself down there.
But really that's helpful tokind of frame that in the line
of ministry as well, becauseoftentimes we can think of our
job if we're working in ministryas well.
That's what God wants me to doand we can put that above our
family.
We can put that above our kidsand I have to understand I have
four kids and those kids and Ihave to make sure that I'm
(06:55):
putting them above my ministryand I work with lots of kids.
I love all of those kids andthey are so important.
But I need to make sure thatI'm putting my kids and the time
above my ministry and then mywife above that and then God
first.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
And then something second alsothat you said is there are
seasons and I was talking toLaura this morning about this
(07:20):
and that's one of the things,too that you just really said is
, you know, eric, we've gonethrough a lot of different
seasons of our life, and when Ifirst started ministry, I was
newly married and trying tofigure that out, and so I had to
make sure to kind of keep thoseboundaries of time and to make
sure that I still spent thattime with Laura.
And then that just even gotharder as we had kids and had
(07:40):
more kids, and so, going throughthose seasons of even now it's
like I'm in a phase where Idon't have newborns anymore and
that's different, and so I havemaybe a little bit more time to
be able to put back intoministry that I couldn't when I
had a baby.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah.
So when you find yourself in aseason where things are getting
out of balance, what's kind ofyour first check?
To realize like, oh, hey,something's got to change
because I'm sure that there arefolks listening, who you know,
who maybe either are in thatseason right now or they're
(08:16):
feeling that pressure.
But what's the signal to you ofhey, I got to make a change,
something's's off kilter.
Where do you start to see thoseflags?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I would say, like there's flags that come up
spiritually that maybe you mightmiss, and so those things are
kind of hidden, because a lot oftimes, if you're having
something off with God, maybeyou're not getting used to the
word or things like that, butthose are oftentimes easily
missed, and that's just evenfrom my own experience, where I
kind of miss those spiritual redflags.
Then what happens, though, is itreally kind of starts to hit me
(08:49):
, is in my home life, where it'slike Laura keeps me accountable
with so many things, and ifwe're struggling over something,
or if we find that we aregetting into maybe an argument
or something about something,when we're like, wait, we're on
the same side of this, like whatare we even arguing about?
But we find ourselves just beingat a tension, and that is
(09:14):
probably where I see flags.
I mean, sometimes it can happenwith kids as well, and I've
seen that happen.
You know where sometimesthere's something where it's
like, okay, no, I got to takethis opportunity to be able to
be with my child, and so thoseare those flags that come up,
but oftentimes those flags arebecause you've already missed
the things that God is alreadytrying to kind of show you, and
then you can go back and look atthose and be like, oh yeah,
(09:36):
actually all of my prioritiesare out of order because I've
been spending too much time inministry or I've spent too much
time even on my own self and Ihaven't been able to really take
that quiet time.
Maybe that a way to be with God, or to be with your wife or
your spouse or your family aswell.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So Maybe on the flip side, because you have
definitely been in the game along time at this point, but as
the head of a department,because Urban Impact is
constantly bringing in newmissionaries, new fellows, new
folks into the department, howdo you, as a manager, encourage
that in your staff and help themto make sure that we're not
(10:19):
getting them burnt out at thesame time?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Absolutely.
I think there's lots of waysyou can do this.
I one way for me is I try to beand I've learned this from
Tammy, who is my supervisor is Itry to be more generous with
time.
So I I love a calendar and Ilove being able to go out and
see things in advance, and wehave lots of performances in the
performing arts and sosometimes there's things on
(10:43):
weekends and that can take timeaway.
You know that stacks up and sobeing really making sure that
try to being proactive in that,to be able to say, hey, we have
a weekend performance, I want tomake sure that you guys are
taking off sometime next week tobe able to, to make sure you
can be with your family or totake your Sabbath if it's on a
(11:04):
Sunday or something like that tomake sure you have that time of
rest.
So I mean, I love working hardand I know I have a really
hardworking department and so Ireally don't have to worry about
that.
But I feel like, as a manager,when it comes to the time of the
people that you're working within ministry, it's better to be
more generous than to be liketrying to count hours when it
(11:28):
comes time for that.
So that is something that I tryto be able to keep and really
try to encourage that when thestaff that is working is making
sure to take that time, not justto do another project, but to
be able to take that time to say, hey, this is with your family,
this is your time to go on aretreat, to hear from God or
(11:49):
whatever it might be.
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Speaker 2 (12:48):
I think that a lot of times we get so caught up in
the micromanaging of approvingtime cards and all of the
details but at the end of theday, one thing I think gets
missed in nonprofit work ormaybe something people don't
realize about it is that you areagain it's not nine to five, is
that you are again it's notnine to five, but you're putting
in an overabundance of hoursright All the time.
(13:11):
So making sure to balance thatout and not getting okay well,
you worked two hours here, soyou can take two hours here and
not micromanaging the details ofthat, I think is a really good
call out.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Absolutely, and you see this with I forget where it
is.
You guys, this is what Googleis for.
You can look it up in the Bible.
Okay, perfect, but I mean, it'sso much of the parable of.
You know, there's some peoplethat worked like 40 hours on an
event, and then there's thepeople that came in just the
last little bit and worked it,but they still get the same
amount of pay or the same amountof reward for the work, and
(13:41):
I've found that that is veryoften how it is.
It's like we all work for, let'ssay, light the Night.
It's our year-end annualChristmas program.
It takes a ton of hours andhours above and beyond the
40-hour work week to be able topull that off, but some people
might work 50 hours, some peoplemight work 60 hours that week.
(14:02):
You know, like it's just a lotthat we're kind of putting in.
And so to be able to say, okay,hey, you guys, we have to take
off some time to rest, but we'reall going to be able to take
this time because we're all inthis together, and that also not
only helps prevent burnout butthat also keeps people from
comparing themselves to oneanother to be able to say, hey,
we're all on this equal kind ofplaying field here.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
That's a good call out too, because I think that
kind of attitude has to bemodeled right.
There's a culture of like Ijust need to keep hustling, I
need to keep going, but if I seethat my boss is making sure to
take that time and beingintentional about it, then it
frees up the people who reportto you to be able to feel okay
about doing it as well.
Right, if you're.
(14:44):
If you, as the leader, are notmodeling that, it's harder for
them to do it.
Also.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yes, oh, I mean it is .
It is very important because Iwork with a lot of younger
people that are either, you know, coming out of some of them are
coming even out of high school,as fellows like you mentioned
or out of college, or maybethey're just young in their
careers and so as best as we canmodel and help them to get this
in their kind of workingrepertoire early on, and so when
(15:12):
they do get married or whenthey start a family, or when
life just hits really hard orthey adopt a child or bring in a
foster child and things justget more challenging like that,
that they already have that intotheir system.
Because I know it was differentbefore I had kids, that I felt
like I was like, oh, I couldjust work, work, work, but also
understanding that no, sabbathis meant for everybody, it's not
(15:34):
just meant for the people thathave 10 kids, it's meant for
everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, so we're going to go all the way back to 2008,
when you were just starting.
Is there something now, as youlook back at that season because
we're talking to a lot of folkswho are just starting their
nonprofit journey and theirministry journey in this season
is there something that you wishyou would have known then?
(16:02):
Like, if you could go backuntil 17 years ago, eric, what
would you tell yourself now thatyou, like you, wish you would
have known as you were startingout?
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I think the thing that's so we work with a lot of
youth about it.
Four years is when a lot ofurban missionaries that work at
urban impact burnout and that'skind of like the average.
So what I kind of learned atthat time was and Tammy pulled
me aside and said this is like,yes, we are here for the kids,
(16:33):
but ultimately our main goal isto be able to follow what God
has for us, and if we get thatout of order, even though being
there to make disciples ofstudents is the utmost important
, it's, we're making disciplesfor Christ, and so I think the
main thing that I would havewanted to know just even
(16:53):
starting out, is we want to makesure that we're here for God's
business, not the business ofkids, not the business of
whatever your nonprofit is.
We're here for God's businessand the success rides and dives
(17:14):
on him on the cross and on whohe is as a provider, and not how
much I am discipling a student.
And that's kind of one of thosethings where you know very
practically four years into it Ihad some students that I had
poured really into and theystarted making some choices that
were really hard or, you know,lying to my face about things,
(17:39):
and I thought I was like Ithought I was doing so well and
I thought I was trying to pourso much into them and I was
pouring a lot into them and in alot of ways I was doing well
and in a lot of ways I wasmaking maybe some mistakes too,
but at that time I had to makesure if the success was based
upon their success, then I wouldhave been out at that time at
four years.
But it's really seeing what Godhas.
(18:00):
So I think that's what I wouldhave liked to have known just
even earlier and it would havehelped put things even to better
perspective and to continue toseek God first.
But there are some lessons thatyou just kind of learn a little
bit the hard way.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, unfortunately, right, it'd be so easy if we
didn't have to do it that way.
Yes, so talk to us a little bitabout then the flip, the whole
flip side of all of this.
Right, instead of the burnout,is the reward, because there is
so much you know, nobody gets.
I shouldn't say nobody.
(18:36):
I don't want to paint with thatbroad of a brush, that broad of
a brush.
I don't know of anybody thatgoes into nonprofit or into
ministry.
For the paycheck, for theaccolades.
These are not what tends todrive those folks.
It is all about the mission,it's all about the impact and
the doing of God's work and goodwork.
(18:57):
So, outside of the burnout,what are the things that keep
you going?
What are those success storiesmaybe, that you look to, or even
just the moments where you'relike, yep, what I'm doing work.
So, outside of the burnout,what are the things that keep
you going?
What are those success stories,maybe, that you look to, or
even just the moments whereyou're like, yep, what I'm doing
matters that keep you goingthroughout that process?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
oh, yeah, it's.
It's wonderful when you get achance to be able to see a
student for for me to be able tosay, like, okay, okay, this
student is actually making thesechoices and they're making them
.
And you see them make thechoices on their own.
And it's not because ofsomething that I said or Urban
Impact said or their parentshave said, it's just it's really
(19:33):
exciting when you see it startto click and it's.
You have those moments whenyou're like, oh, like this, what
I'm doing is worth it Because,like you said, the paycheck
isn't there for it and like theglory isn't there for it.
Like, yeah, there's some greattimes where you know people can,
you know, clap for a show orthings like that, and that's
wonderful.
But really seeing a student andseeing them make those choices
(19:57):
on their own is really wonderful.
And that can be a lot of wayslike people, students coming
back to volunteer, studentscoming back to be able to, you
know, run the programs that youstarted, or things like that.
That is truly awesome reward,and God is so good and so
gracious to me that so oftenwhen I find myself, when I am at
(20:19):
a place close to burnout orthings like that, there are
those glimpses of like, thosenuggets of being like but did
you see this?
Like that's, that's so good andso that's, that's really just
such a wonderful award.
I tell people this all the timeworking at Urban Impact is a
lot of hard work, but it's not ajob Like.
I love what I do, I really do,and and being able to work here
(20:41):
with these students and thestaff that I have is just truly
a blessing.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I love that.
So one of the things that Iknow you do, because I've
watched it happen, is some ofthese.
You know we do a Christmas showfor Light the Night, but your
summer program is pretty indepth and pretty intense and I
think that for a lot ofnon-profit folks, especially
anyone that works with students,summer can be the the time
(21:08):
right.
Whether you're running camps orprograms or whatever the case
may be, summer can be a reallyintense time to work in
non-profit on those front lines.
Is that a way that you allthink about seasonality too?
Like we know, summer is goingto be crazy, so maybe in the
spring we pull back a little bit, or fall.
We know fall is going to be ourbusy season.
I don't know that you all havea not busy season, to be honest,
(21:29):
but in general is when we thinkabout planning for that,
especially as we're coming intosummer, how do you, how do you
guys, think about structuringseasons that way, especially
when you know one is going to bejust super intense?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Absolutely.
I also learned this a littlebit the hard way too.
You really do have to planahead, you have to know and you
have to look at this and to beable to sometimes to say, like
no, we can take a week off.
So when we had originally, mywife and I, we started a summer
program that was an intensiveShakespeare program that we put
(22:09):
together a show at the end ofthe summer and we did that.
We started that before we hadkids and then, as our family
grew, it was very intensive, weloved doing it, but we actually
ended up taking a summer offjust because we were getting
close to burnout and so we justlike, okay, we're going to kind
of look at this to see you knowwhat is important, or how can we
do this and do this long-term.
And so one of the things thatwe did was, very practically,
(22:33):
when we came back and did it,the following summer is we said,
okay, we're in the middle ofthe summer, we're going to take
a week off, because weunderstood that if we were
feeling it as a family and thatthat was just so intense that
chances are our students ortheir families might be feeling
it or our interns would befeeling it to be able to say,
(22:55):
okay, let's take a break, rightin the middle of it, and it's
hard to do because you're likewell, but that's right when
we're getting going.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And we want to keep the momentum.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Yes, exactly, but it is.
It is turned out to be so, sogreat and now we don't miss it
because it's built into our kindof our routine of things.
But the first year it was toughbecause we were like, oh, if we
just had one more week, orsomething like that, but yeah,
but, but yeah.
So you really have to look atit and you really have to
schedule it out and and if youhave an already an existing
(23:29):
program, it's really good to tobe able to kind of look back at
it and say, okay, this was good,but maybe how could we improve
it or how could we look for thelongevity of it and to kind of
reassess.
Maybe that is taking someperfect like some, some
specifically scheduled times off.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So good, Okay.
So in general, if someonewanted to learn more about any
of the programs you're talkingabout or about Urban Impact
itself, where would we find thatinformation?
How do we get to learn moreabout you guys?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Well, you can, of course, check us out on the web
at uifpghorg and you canprobably put that in the
comments, so you can just clickon that and then another thing
that you could just be able todo is you can follow us on
Instagram or check us out onFacebook.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
There you go as we wrap up.
My question to everybody thisseason has been if you could
give one piece of advice tosomebody who's just starting out
in their nonprofit career, whatwould that look like?
What's the one takeaway, thatone nugget of wisdom that you
would pass on?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
This is a hard kind of truth, but this is something
that Pastor Ed has said to meand when I first came on, and
also has said to many others ifyou can do something else, go do
it.
So that that's it.
But if you feel that you'recalled to do this and if you're
like, no, I got to come back, Ididn't.
Just he just has that itch andyou can't do it, then that's
(24:53):
when you know, because being anonprofit, like we said, it's
not about the money and it's notabout the glory, because that's
not what we're here for.
So yeah, if you can go dosomething else, go do it.
If not, then that's when youreally start to focus in and be
able to see what God is callingyou out to do.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I love it.
Fantastic.
A little bit of a hard pill toswallow, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Right, absolutely.
It makes you think.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, that's definitely, but a solid truth.
If there's anything else youcan do, go do that.
Maybe this isn't for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Because otherwise you'll find yourself four years
down the road and you'll just begoing off to a new job.
But for those people that aresticking around or maybe on the
edge, if you can stick it outafter three years, between three
and five years, you reallystart clicking, and then after
that it's amazing to be able tosee what happens with longevity.
You can be able to do so muchif you're able to stick it out
(25:50):
and be able to see what startsto compound over time.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, so good.
Eric, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your wisdomand insight.
Certainly with 17 years in thenonprofit ministry world, you
are speaking from expertise, soI appreciate you sharing that
with everyone.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Oh, thank you so much .
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Again, this has been another episode of the Nonprofit
Hub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
Bye.
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Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andalong with me today is my
longtime friend, eric Anderson.
Super excited to dig into aconversation with him as we
continue this series onNonprofit 101 about what it
looks like to start well andmake sure that you're not
burning out in nonprofit andministry work, because that is
(00:47):
real and it is such a struggle.
So I know Eric has long been inthe ministry space and so he's
got a lot of wisdom to share onthat, so I'm super excited to
dig in, eric.
Welcome in.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, it's great.
So tell the audience a littlebit about yourself.
Full disclosure.
Eric works for an, so tell theaudience a little bit about
yourself.
Full disclosure.
Eric works for an organizationthat I am a big fan of and have
been a volunteer with, and adonor with for a very long time
now, so I'm excited for him toshare some of that expertise.
But tell the audience a littlebit about yourself and your
background in ministry and theorganization that you're with.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yes, well, my name, like you said, is Eric Anderson.
I am the Director of PerformingArts at Urban Impact Foundation
, and Urban Impact is anonprofit youth ministry that
works in community anddevelopment on the north side of
Pittsburgh students, the youthand their families and to be
(01:45):
able to disciple them in christso that they can become the man
or the woman that god createdand desired and designed them to
be, and so that's what I get todo in the arts, and whether
that's dance, theater,instrumental, vocal or
construction trades or technicalarts, or musical theater or
musical theater.
Yes, yes, I can't.
We have a tremendous musicaltheater coach.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I hear she's pretty great.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
She's pretty great, Really really wonderful.
Her tap dancing is great.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Oh, fantastic that's actually.
I've been doing this podcastfor a year and a half now and
strangely, my tap dancing skillshave never come up yet, so I'm
really glad that you broughtthat to the forefront.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Yes, you'll have to do that just for a whole podcast
, just but yeah, so it's reallywonderful.
We just are in the arts.
We're about redeeming the artsfor Christ.
We want people to be able touse their gifts to glorify God
the way that he intended them to.
So it's it's wonderful.
I've been doing this since 2008.
And in some ways it seems likewow, that's a long time ago, but
(02:46):
really I love what I do andit's been wonderful just to be
able to do this for the past 17years.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
That's so good.
So I know you and your wifeLaura are not from Pittsburgh,
right?
So you came here specificallyto be a part of Urban Impact.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
So when Laura and I were getting married, she was
living in Pittsburgh at the time.
She was here, and so I was inColumbus.
I was actually in a ministry inColumbus and we were praying
about where God really wanted usto be, and especially as we
were about to get married and wewere actually even considering
at that time potentially goingoverseas into missions or just
(03:26):
anywhere.
We're saying God, where do youwant us?
And God kind of made it clearthat we were supposed to go to
Pittsburgh.
And for me, I'm actually fromNortheast Ohio and so, being a
Cleveland sports fan, I was likeno God anywhere but here.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, just send me to Africa.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Asia.
So yeah, god kind of led ushere and started pretty much
immediately.
When it came here throughAllegheny Center, alliance
Church, found out about UrbanImpact and started volunteering
with them.
And soon after I startedvolunteering, tammy Glover, who
has been a longtime friend andsupervisor and started the
performing arts at Urban Impact,asked me to kind of come on and
(04:02):
help her with her vision ofstarting a performing arts
academy and just growing fromthere.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
I love it.
So one of the things that Ithink is true is obviously true
about Urban Impact, but it'strue about a lot of
organizations when you'retalking about things that are
maybe urban ministry or specificto kids, nonprofit in general
but ministry specifically is nota normal nine to five, monday
through Friday.
These are not a regularschedule kind of thing, and so I
(04:32):
think that's part of wheremaybe some of the burnout can
start is that your job is allthe time when you're on the
front lines running programslike that.
So what have you done, or whathave you and your family done I
know Laura's been a huge part ofyour ministry what have you
guys done to really put someeither boundaries in place?
Or was there a season wheremaybe you didn't have those
(04:54):
boundaries in place that youfound yourself starting to get
burnt out?
And what did you learn fromthere about how to set some of
those limits up for yourself?
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Absolutely.
I mean, you're hitting allthese points right on the head
where, first of all, there'ssome great boundaries that you
want to set, kind of at thebeginning.
And early on, when I came on,tammy taught me this and she
learned it from her father, whowas also in ministry and kind of
put these things and it'sreally understanding the
priorities that you need to beable to go into.
(05:24):
And this is, you know, you canapply this to anything, but
especially it helps with keepingyourself healthy.
And when you go into ministry,and that's first priority is God
and being able to follow afterhim.
And then second, if you'remarried, is your wife or your
spouse, and then after that, ifyou have kids, comes your kids,
(05:44):
and then, following that is yourministry or your work.
If you're not in ministry, youcan say your work there.
And then, lastly, fifth, isthen your own recreational time
and kind of your fun time orthings like that, and it's
really important that those kindof stay in that order too,
because there are, we understand, a lot of times it's you want
(06:11):
to be able to have, maybe, yourfun time you got to keep down
there but also recognizing thatyour ministry can't be above
your family, or sometimes too,if you put you're going to
become professional in it andeven become above what God is
really calling you to do andmaybe God's calling you out to
do something else, so kind ofreally keeping those all in
there.
And of course we see thatechoed in through what Jesus
talks about in his greatestcommandment love God first and
(06:32):
then love others and thenputting yourself down there.
But really that's helpful tokind of frame that in the line
of ministry as well, becauseoftentimes we can think of our
job if we're working in ministryas well.
That's what God wants me to doand we can put that above our
family.
We can put that above our kidsand I have to understand I have
four kids and those kids and Ihave to make sure that I'm
(06:55):
putting them above my ministryand I work with lots of kids.
I love all of those kids andthey are so important.
But I need to make sure thatI'm putting my kids and the time
above my ministry and then mywife above that and then God
first.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
And then something second alsothat you said is there are
seasons and I was talking toLaura this morning about this
(07:20):
and that's one of the things,too that you just really said is
, you know, eric, we've gonethrough a lot of different
seasons of our life, and when Ifirst started ministry, I was
newly married and trying tofigure that out, and so I had to
make sure to kind of keep thoseboundaries of time and to make
sure that I still spent thattime with Laura.
And then that just even gotharder as we had kids and had
(07:40):
more kids, and so, going throughthose seasons of even now it's
like I'm in a phase where Idon't have newborns anymore and
that's different, and so I havemaybe a little bit more time to
be able to put back intoministry that I couldn't when I
had a baby.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah.
So when you find yourself in aseason where things are getting
out of balance, what's kind ofyour first check?
To realize like, oh, hey,something's got to change
because I'm sure that there arefolks listening, who you know,
who maybe either are in thatseason right now or they're
(08:16):
feeling that pressure.
But what's the signal to you ofhey, I got to make a change,
something's's off kilter.
Where do you start to see thoseflags?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I would say, like there's flags that come up
spiritually that maybe you mightmiss, and so those things are
kind of hidden, because a lot oftimes, if you're having
something off with God, maybeyou're not getting used to the
word or things like that, butthose are oftentimes easily
missed, and that's just evenfrom my own experience, where I
kind of miss those spiritual redflags.
Then what happens, though, is itreally kind of starts to hit me
(08:49):
, is in my home life, where it'slike Laura keeps me accountable
with so many things, and ifwe're struggling over something,
or if we find that we aregetting into maybe an argument
or something about something,when we're like, wait, we're on
the same side of this, like whatare we even arguing about?
But we find ourselves just beingat a tension, and that is
(09:14):
probably where I see flags.
I mean, sometimes it can happenwith kids as well, and I've
seen that happen.
You know where sometimesthere's something where it's
like, okay, no, I got to takethis opportunity to be able to
be with my child, and so thoseare those flags that come up,
but oftentimes those flags arebecause you've already missed
the things that God is alreadytrying to kind of show you, and
then you can go back and look atthose and be like, oh yeah,
(09:36):
actually all of my prioritiesare out of order because I've
been spending too much time inministry or I've spent too much
time even on my own self and Ihaven't been able to really take
that quiet time.
Maybe that a way to be with God, or to be with your wife or
your spouse or your family aswell.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
So Maybe on the flip side, because you have
definitely been in the game along time at this point, but as
the head of a department,because Urban Impact is
constantly bringing in newmissionaries, new fellows, new
folks into the department, howdo you, as a manager, encourage
that in your staff and help themto make sure that we're not
(10:19):
getting them burnt out at thesame time?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Absolutely.
I think there's lots of waysyou can do this.
I one way for me is I try to beand I've learned this from
Tammy, who is my supervisor is Itry to be more generous with
time.
So I I love a calendar and Ilove being able to go out and
see things in advance, and wehave lots of performances in the
performing arts and sosometimes there's things on
(10:43):
weekends and that can take timeaway.
You know that stacks up and sobeing really making sure that
try to being proactive in that,to be able to say, hey, we have
a weekend performance, I want tomake sure that you guys are
taking off sometime next week tobe able to, to make sure you
can be with your family or totake your Sabbath if it's on a
(11:04):
Sunday or something like that tomake sure you have that time of
rest.
So I mean, I love working hardand I know I have a really
hardworking department and so Ireally don't have to worry about
that.
But I feel like, as a manager,when it comes to the time of the
people that you're working within ministry, it's better to be
more generous than to be liketrying to count hours when it
(11:28):
comes time for that.
So that is something that I tryto be able to keep and really
try to encourage that when thestaff that is working is making
sure to take that time, not justto do another project, but to
be able to take that time to say, hey, this is with your family,
this is your time to go on aretreat, to hear from God or
(11:49):
whatever it might be.
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Speaker 2 (12:48):
I think that a lot of times we get so caught up in
the micromanaging of approvingtime cards and all of the
details but at the end of theday, one thing I think gets
missed in nonprofit work ormaybe something people don't
realize about it is that you areagain it's not nine to five, is
that you are again it's notnine to five, but you're putting
in an overabundance of hoursright All the time.
(13:11):
So making sure to balance thatout and not getting okay well,
you worked two hours here, soyou can take two hours here and
not micromanaging the details ofthat, I think is a really good
call out.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Absolutely, and you see this with I forget where it
is.
You guys, this is what Googleis for.
You can look it up in the Bible.
Okay, perfect, but I mean, it'sso much of the parable of.
You know, there's some peoplethat worked like 40 hours on an
event, and then there's thepeople that came in just the
last little bit and worked it,but they still get the same
amount of pay or the same amountof reward for the work, and
(13:41):
I've found that that is veryoften how it is.
It's like we all work for, let'ssay, light the Night.
It's our year-end annualChristmas program.
It takes a ton of hours andhours above and beyond the
40-hour work week to be able topull that off, but some people
might work 50 hours, some peoplemight work 60 hours that week.
(14:02):
You know, like it's just a lotthat we're kind of putting in.
And so to be able to say, okay,hey, you guys, we have to take
off some time to rest, but we'reall going to be able to take
this time because we're all inthis together, and that also not
only helps prevent burnout butthat also keeps people from
comparing themselves to oneanother to be able to say, hey,
we're all on this equal kind ofplaying field here.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
That's a good call out too, because I think that
kind of attitude has to bemodeled right.
There's a culture of like Ijust need to keep hustling, I
need to keep going, but if I seethat my boss is making sure to
take that time and beingintentional about it, then it
frees up the people who reportto you to be able to feel okay
about doing it as well.
Right, if you're.
(14:44):
If you, as the leader, are notmodeling that, it's harder for
them to do it.
Also.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
Yes, oh, I mean it is .
It is very important because Iwork with a lot of younger
people that are either, you know, coming out of some of them are
coming even out of high school,as fellows like you mentioned
or out of college, or maybethey're just young in their
careers and so as best as we canmodel and help them to get this
in their kind of workingrepertoire early on, and so when
(15:12):
they do get married or whenthey start a family, or when
life just hits really hard orthey adopt a child or bring in a
foster child and things justget more challenging like that,
that they already have that intotheir system.
Because I know it was differentbefore I had kids, that I felt
like I was like, oh, I couldjust work, work, work, but also
understanding that no, sabbathis meant for everybody, it's not
(15:34):
just meant for the people thathave 10 kids, it's meant for
everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Yeah, so we're going to go all the way back to 2008,
when you were just starting.
Is there something now, as youlook back at that season because
we're talking to a lot of folkswho are just starting their
nonprofit journey and theirministry journey in this season
is there something that you wishyou would have known then?
(16:02):
Like, if you could go backuntil 17 years ago, eric, what
would you tell yourself now thatyou, like you, wish you would
have known as you were startingout?
Speaker 3 (16:12):
I think the thing that's so we work with a lot of
youth about it.
Four years is when a lot ofurban missionaries that work at
urban impact burnout and that'skind of like the average.
So what I kind of learned atthat time was and Tammy pulled
me aside and said this is like,yes, we are here for the kids,
(16:33):
but ultimately our main goal isto be able to follow what God
has for us, and if we get thatout of order, even though being
there to make disciples ofstudents is the utmost important
, it's, we're making disciplesfor Christ, and so I think the
main thing that I would havewanted to know just even
(16:53):
starting out, is we want to makesure that we're here for God's
business, not the business ofkids, not the business of
whatever your nonprofit is.
We're here for God's businessand the success rides and dives
(17:14):
on him on the cross and on whohe is as a provider, and not how
much I am discipling a student.
And that's kind of one of thosethings where you know very
practically four years into it Ihad some students that I had
poured really into and theystarted making some choices that
were really hard or, you know,lying to my face about things,
(17:39):
and I thought I was like Ithought I was doing so well and
I thought I was trying to pourso much into them and I was
pouring a lot into them and in alot of ways I was doing well
and in a lot of ways I wasmaking maybe some mistakes too,
but at that time I had to makesure if the success was based
upon their success, then I wouldhave been out at that time at
four years.
But it's really seeing what Godhas.
(18:00):
So I think that's what I wouldhave liked to have known just
even earlier and it would havehelped put things even to better
perspective and to continue toseek God first.
But there are some lessons thatyou just kind of learn a little
bit the hard way.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, unfortunately, right, it'd be so easy if we
didn't have to do it that way.
Yes, so talk to us a little bitabout then the flip, the whole
flip side of all of this.
Right, instead of the burnout,is the reward, because there is
so much you know, nobody gets.
I shouldn't say nobody.
(18:36):
I don't want to paint with thatbroad of a brush, that broad of
a brush.
I don't know of anybody thatgoes into nonprofit or into
ministry.
For the paycheck, for theaccolades.
These are not what tends todrive those folks.
It is all about the mission,it's all about the impact and
the doing of God's work and goodwork.
(18:57):
So, outside of the burnout,what are the things that keep
you going?
What are those success storiesmaybe, that you look to, or even
just the moments where you'relike, yep, what I'm doing work.
So, outside of the burnout,what are the things that keep
you going?
What are those success stories,maybe, that you look to, or
even just the moments whereyou're like, yep, what I'm doing
matters that keep you goingthroughout that process?
Speaker 3 (19:12):
oh, yeah, it's.
It's wonderful when you get achance to be able to see a
student for for me to be able tosay, like, okay, okay, this
student is actually making thesechoices and they're making them
.
And you see them make thechoices on their own.
And it's not because ofsomething that I said or Urban
Impact said or their parentshave said, it's just it's really
(19:33):
exciting when you see it startto click and it's.
You have those moments whenyou're like, oh, like this, what
I'm doing is worth it Because,like you said, the paycheck
isn't there for it and like theglory isn't there for it.
Like, yeah, there's some greattimes where you know people can,
you know, clap for a show orthings like that, and that's
wonderful.
But really seeing a student andseeing them make those choices
(19:57):
on their own is really wonderful.
And that can be a lot of wayslike people, students coming
back to volunteer, studentscoming back to be able to, you
know, run the programs that youstarted, or things like that.
That is truly awesome reward,and God is so good and so
gracious to me that so oftenwhen I find myself, when I am at
(20:19):
a place close to burnout orthings like that, there are
those glimpses of like, thosenuggets of being like but did
you see this?
Like that's, that's so good andso that's, that's really just
such a wonderful award.
I tell people this all the timeworking at Urban Impact is a
lot of hard work, but it's not ajob Like.
I love what I do, I really do,and and being able to work here
(20:41):
with these students and thestaff that I have is just truly
a blessing.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I love that.
So one of the things that Iknow you do, because I've
watched it happen, is some ofthese.
You know we do a Christmas showfor Light the Night, but your
summer program is pretty indepth and pretty intense and I
think that for a lot ofnon-profit folks, especially
anyone that works with students,summer can be the the time
(21:08):
right.
Whether you're running camps orprograms or whatever the case
may be, summer can be a reallyintense time to work in
non-profit on those front lines.
Is that a way that you allthink about seasonality too?
Like we know, summer is goingto be crazy, so maybe in the
spring we pull back a little bit, or fall.
We know fall is going to be ourbusy season.
I don't know that you all havea not busy season, to be honest,
(21:29):
but in general is when we thinkabout planning for that,
especially as we're coming intosummer, how do you, how do you
guys, think about structuringseasons that way, especially
when you know one is going to bejust super intense?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Absolutely.
I also learned this a littlebit the hard way too.
You really do have to planahead, you have to know and you
have to look at this and to beable to sometimes to say, like
no, we can take a week off.
So when we had originally, mywife and I, we started a summer
program that was an intensiveShakespeare program that we put
(22:09):
together a show at the end ofthe summer and we did that.
We started that before we hadkids and then, as our family
grew, it was very intensive, weloved doing it, but we actually
ended up taking a summer offjust because we were getting
close to burnout and so we justlike, okay, we're going to kind
of look at this to see you knowwhat is important, or how can we
do this and do this long-term.
And so one of the things thatwe did was, very practically,
(22:33):
when we came back and did it,the following summer is we said,
okay, we're in the middle ofthe summer, we're going to take
a week off, because weunderstood that if we were
feeling it as a family and thatthat was just so intense that
chances are our students ortheir families might be feeling
it or our interns would befeeling it to be able to say,
(22:55):
okay, let's take a break, rightin the middle of it, and it's
hard to do because you're likewell, but that's right when
we're getting going.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
And we want to keep the momentum.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
Yes, exactly, but it is.
It is turned out to be so, sogreat and now we don't miss it
because it's built into our kindof our routine of things.
But the first year it was toughbecause we were like, oh, if we
just had one more week, orsomething like that, but yeah,
but, but yeah.
So you really have to look atit and you really have to
schedule it out and and if youhave an already an existing
(23:29):
program, it's really good to tobe able to kind of look back at
it and say, okay, this was good,but maybe how could we improve
it or how could we look for thelongevity of it and to kind of
reassess.
Maybe that is taking someperfect like some, some
specifically scheduled times off.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
So good, Okay.
So in general, if someonewanted to learn more about any
of the programs you're talkingabout or about Urban Impact
itself, where would we find thatinformation?
How do we get to learn moreabout you guys?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Well, you can, of course, check us out on the web
at uifpghorg and you canprobably put that in the
comments, so you can just clickon that and then another thing
that you could just be able todo is you can follow us on
Instagram or check us out onFacebook.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
There you go as we wrap up.
My question to everybody thisseason has been if you could
give one piece of advice tosomebody who's just starting out
in their nonprofit career, whatwould that look like?
What's the one takeaway, thatone nugget of wisdom that you
would pass on?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
This is a hard kind of truth, but this is something
that Pastor Ed has said to meand when I first came on, and
also has said to many others ifyou can do something else, go do
it.
So that that's it.
But if you feel that you'recalled to do this and if you're
like, no, I got to come back, Ididn't.
Just he just has that itch andyou can't do it, then that's
(24:53):
when you know, because being anonprofit, like we said, it's
not about the money and it's notabout the glory, because that's
not what we're here for.
So yeah, if you can go dosomething else, go do it.
If not, then that's when youreally start to focus in and be
able to see what God is callingyou out to do.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I love it.
Fantastic.
A little bit of a hard pill toswallow, I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Right, absolutely.
It makes you think.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, that's definitely, but a solid truth.
If there's anything else youcan do, go do that.
Maybe this isn't for you.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Because otherwise you'll find yourself four years
down the road and you'll just begoing off to a new job.
But for those people that aresticking around or maybe on the
edge, if you can stick it outafter three years, between three
and five years, you reallystart clicking, and then after
that it's amazing to be able tosee what happens with longevity.
You can be able to do so muchif you're able to stick it out
(25:50):
and be able to see what startsto compound over time.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, so good.
Eric, thank you so much.
I really appreciate your wisdomand insight.
Certainly with 17 years in thenonprofit ministry world, you
are speaking from expertise, soI appreciate you sharing that
with everyone.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Oh, thank you so much .
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Again, this has been another episode of the Nonprofit
Hub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
Bye.
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