From Film School to Nonprofit Impact: Redefining Leadership and Board Development for Lasting Change
February 7, 2025 • 32 mins
What happens when you transition from film school or youth ministry aspirations to a career in the nonprofit sector? In this episode, get ready to explore the journeys of Carrie Richards and Jamie Simmons, two passionate professionals who have embraced the nonprofit world with open arms. Carrie talks about her path from wanting to be a youth minister to becoming a dedicated nonprofit professional, while Jamie shares her shift from the creative realm of film school to the impactful work of nonprofit boards. Their stories challenge the common misconceptions about nonprofit careers, showcasing the ingenuity and professionalism that the sector demands. Discover the often-overlooked significance of nonprofit board development with us.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andjoining me today are Keri
Richards and Jamie Simmons.
I'm very excited to dig intosome leadership development and
(00:47):
the importance of continuingeducation and leadership and
professional development forleaders, both on the board level
and in the executive leadershipon nonprofits, because I think
sometimes it's really easy toneglect ourselves as leaders and
let the day-to-day get us toobusy.
So I'm excited to dig into theimportance of that today.
Ladies, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, my pleasure.
So, carrie, let's start withyou.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into
nonprofit work in the firstplace.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Sure, so my story has a little bit of a churchy
beginning.
I went to undergraduate school,to Eastern College, now
university, to become a youthminister.
Did that the school was thelate recently late.
Tony Campolo was a professorthere who was a great advocate
for social justice and people offaith getting involved in
(01:41):
social activism.
Graduated, realized I did notwant to be youth minister.
Got a job at a nonprofitorganization in my neighborhood
called the Pittsburgh Project,kind of doing program management
type things.
Realized this is a path I'dreally like to take and then, to
be honest, didn't want to takeout a whole lot more student
loans to go through a master'sprogram in something nonprofit
(02:05):
focused.
I ended up here at Robert MorrisUniversity in an entry-level
position at the Bayer Center forNonprofit Management.
That was almost 18 years agoand I have been working to help
nonprofits do their work moreefficiently and effectively for
(02:25):
about 17 years.
Primarily my focus is throughprofessional development,
through non-credit short classesthat you can learn something on
the fly that will help youtomorrow, help you in the next
hour after the class is over, toboth professionalize nonprofit
work and to help nonprofits betaken more seriously both folks
(02:47):
who work for the nonprofitsector and the work that they do
, that it is a legitimateprofession.
It is important, and that's mysoapbox.
That's my soapbox is thatnonprofit employees are
legitimate, smart people and nota pat on the head oh, that's
(03:07):
nice, you do that to help people.
No, this is important work andso, yep, that's kind of where I
started, and I'm still hereafter a long time, so obviously
something is clicking for me.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's awesome, I love it.
And then, jamie, you kind ofwork alongside Carrie.
Or tell me a little bit aboutyour journey there as well.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, so Carrie and I work at sister centers at RMU.
So RMU has two centers that ourentire purpose is to help make
the world a better place throughnonprofits, and so I am lucky
to be Carrie's co-worker.
You know, we work together verywell.
Our centers work together verywell.
(03:48):
My nonprofit journey startedbecause I started working at a
children's museum when I was 17here in Pittsburgh and I was
going to film school and I wasgoing to be a film director.
But I started working at thischildren's museum and when I was
at the children's museum overthe next three years of being
there, I realized there werethese things called nonprofits
(04:11):
and that people.
You know, I went to my firstfundraiser and I was like, wait
a second, people give you moneyand it was.
It was like this opening of adoor into the nonprofit sector,
and so I kind of kept thatnugget in the back of my head as
I was continuing my journey tobe a film director and then a
film scholar.
(04:32):
And then I started a master'sdegree in film and realized I
hated film because I'd beenstudying it too long and I was
like maybe I should go and I'dbeen working in nonprofits.
I was like maybe I should workin nonprofits.
And I haven't looked back.
I've been in nonprofit work forover 20 years.
I've done everything fromfrontline work in, you know,
(04:53):
edutainment nonprofits, all theway through really important
work at Child Welfare Agency andthat brought me here to the
Covestor Center where I get tonow kind of put that gigantic
20-year toolbox to work inhelping nonprofits partner with
(05:15):
outside organizations andoutside professionals to make
their organization stronger,typically through board
development.
And so I really think it'simportant that nonprofit boards
continue their developmentprocess and aren't just a rubber
stamp for the organization butreally take their board service
(05:37):
and their board commitment veryseriously and their commitment
to the betterment of thecommunities that they serve and
through their organization.
So that's kind of how I endedup here.
It's just by working at achildren's museum.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I love it, that's awesome.
Well, I'm really excited to digin today because I'm going to
go back to something that Carriesaid in her introduction, which
is this idea that, like it'scute that you work in a
nonprofit, right, that's sosweet, like good for you, right,
but we don't tend to maybe givepeople the the kudos they
(06:15):
deserve for the right things,right?
Yes, it's great that you wantto change the world and you want
to have an impact and you wantto make the world a better place
, but there is a level ofprofessionalism and a level of
education, or a level of evenintelligence that folks bring to
the table that I thinkoftentimes gets ignored because
we just we do want to pat thosefolks on the head and say good
(06:37):
job, well, good for you.
So, Carrie, talk to me a littlebit from your perspective about
where that idea comes from andhow we, as leaders, as folks who
run nonprofits, how do we helpfight against that?
How do we help change thatstigma?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, other than just having a soapbox to shout out
to anyone who will hear likethank you podcast listeners.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Or then sharing this podcast with the world Right.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
It starts with the name non-profit.
There have been campaigns fromthe non-profit sector to get
that change to the social sectoror um, something like that,
because it talks about what wedon't do.
We don't make a profit.
That doesn't't mean we can'thave money left over at the end
of the year that we can thenreinvest into our programs.
But it does not mean that thepeople who run the organization
get a big kickback if there's achunk of money at the end.
(07:35):
But just looking at the factthat we do not benefit
financially from any money leftover at the end of the year
automatically puts us at a justa step down from folks who work
in the private sector.
A lot of times, also becausenonprofits have to run on a bare
(07:59):
bones budget, some professionalbest practices get put on a
back burner.
A lot of that from theprofessional standpoint is HR,
is development, leadershipdevelopment.
It is preventing burnout.
It is making sure that peopleare equipped to move from
(08:19):
something like a programmaticrole or a frontline role to a
supervisory role, but notconsidering the professional
development that needs to happenin order to make that
transition successful, to setthose folks up for success.
So through our course catalogwe offer about 80 to 90 sessions
(08:40):
a year that are one to twohours through Zoom, but
interactively, not a talkinghead on fundraising, board
governance, human resources,leadership development,
marketing and technology Some ofthe things that we do.
We focus a lot on HR andleadership development because
that is something that's soimportant and something that is
(09:02):
often ignored.
In our catalog that we justlaunched for the spring, we are
debuting a couple new classes,one called Exit Stage Left, with
Grace and Compassion when youhave to let someone go.
It is complicated in thenonprofit world because there's
(09:22):
so much care and dedication tothe work and kind of a family
mentality sets in.
You know we're doing thistogether, we're saving the world
together.
So how do you professionalizethat particular aspect of being
an employer?
Also, you know helping thehelpers burnout prevention when
(09:43):
your job is to make sure kidsare eating lunch every day and
you're seeing things like hungerand poverty firsthand as your
job, it takes a toll to continueto give and to continue to give
(10:08):
and continue to give and makingsure that those folks are being
cared for, both professionally,in a well thought out way, is
also very important.
So you know, because things arealways changing, we need to be
honing our skills, both in ourcareers and what's going on in
the outside environment.
So when we're putting ourclasses together, we look at a
(10:31):
couple different things.
We look at what we've offeredbefore, how we can improve it
and continue to modify it tomake sure that it's continuing
to adapt to new technologies,new things going on, new trends,
things like that.
We ask people what else wouldyou like to learn about?
When we survey people afterclasses and develop those things
(10:52):
.
And we also look at what'sgoing on in the political
climate, the environmentalclimate.
What's happening?
Are there new governmentregulations that nonprofits need
to consider when they'recollecting data?
Are grant makers looking fornew trends?
And for a while it was logicmodels, for a while it was
(11:12):
mergers, for a while it waspartnerships what are those
things?
And just kind of trying to lookat the ever-changing landscape
of the need of people and how toadapt those skills and how to
adapt those leadership stylesand things to accommodate an
(11:33):
ever-changing environment.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I love that and I think so often.
I love the list that you hadabout the types of content that
you guys are focused on, becauseI feel like so often the only
continuing education pieces thatwe see in the nonprofit space
are about fundraising goingtowards your CFRE, and that's
great for a fundraiser but thatleaves behind everybody else.
(11:58):
So I love that.
That's fundraising wasn't evenon your list and we do offer
some fundraising classes, butthere's so much more to it, and
I think so often I've talked toso many non-profit professionals
who got into it because they dohave that desire.
They want to impact the cause,they want to change the world,
(12:20):
they want to do better and andgrow their good, but that
doesn't always translate to thethe professional skills they
need to do better and grow theirgood, but that doesn't always
translate to the professionalskills they need to do it Right.
That doesn't always mean thatyou have a background in how to
fire somebody or how to manage aconflict or a PR crisis or any
of the things that can come up.
(12:41):
So, equally and, jamie, I'mgoing to get your take on this,
because, equally, I feel like weend up with a lot of folks on
nonprofit boards who don't evenknow why they're there Right,
they don't necessarily evenunderstand the role of the board
sometimes, or they just endedup there because they happen to
(13:02):
be a really good donor and sothey have this seat on the board
.
And so tell me a little bitabout why it's so important to
have that education for theboard as well, and what that
looks like from your side onConfestro.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
I wish more people asked thisquestion.
Right, we would have betterboards.
So I think you're so right.
I think people end up on boardsfor a number of reasons.
Right, and honestly, I'd prefera donor on a board than a best
friend of the executive director.
(13:35):
Right, because we don't haveenough board members to meet our
bylaws right, but there's alldifferent reasons why people end
up on boards and I would say ahuge commonality is what do we
do?
And sometimes nonprofit boardshave not taken the time to build
(13:56):
the infrastructure forthemselves.
You know, when I am teaching aboards work class to either, you
know, in a company setting youknow I recently did one for
American Eagle, right, and whereI went in and I taught a bunch
of their team members how to beboard members or if I'm doing a
mixed cohort with people fromall different sectors.
(14:19):
I think one of the things peopleare always very struck by is
the fact that boards are reallyself-governing, right.
They choose themselves, theynominate their leaders, they
evaluate themselves and they'rein charge of their own
professional development.
Like they are in charge,they're a self-governing entity
(14:41):
that is there to really protectthe public interest, right?
That's the point of the board.
Yes, the board is also there toensure the organization is
moving forward and is meetingits duties and, you know, is
doing what they say they shouldbe doing.
But they're there to protectthe public good and to kind of
(15:01):
usher the nonprofit forward.
That's a big shock to people ofusher the nonprofit forward.
That's a big shock to people.
Wait, I have all these dutiesand responsibilities and so
something like so, carrie and I,when I so I've been here a
little under a year and I and Itook the helm of the Covestro
Center after a small, a smallbreak.
There was a small break inprogramming at Covestro, but
(15:23):
there were two really signatureprograms of the Cabestro Center
Boardswork and Skillshare.
Carrie and I were talking aboutBoardswork and I was talking to
different organizations aboutBoardswork and we'll talk about
Boardswork in a second.
But it's a great program.
But it seemed like there wassomething missing because people
(15:44):
just needed a level setting.
And so Carrie and I developedthis boardsmanship brush-up
class, which is a two-hour classthat's offered through Bayer,
which is just a level setting ofwhat does a board do, and it's
set for people that are brandnew to boards or people that
need that brush-up of what aremy responsibilities, because we
(16:06):
were seeing there was a huge gapand a huge need for this basic
education of people that havebeen on boards for years, and
that should be something that'scoming from internally, inside
of the infrastructure of theboard.
But if the nonprofitprofessionals don't have time to
build solid, sustainableinfrastructure, how can we
expect their boards to buildsolid, sustainable
infrastructure?
(16:27):
How can we expect their boardsto build solid, sustainable
infrastructure?
And so it's something thatwe've introduced this year and
it's been wildly successful toget people with a baseline
knowledge, where either theysend a bunch of people to a
boardmanship brush up or I'll doone specifically for a
nonprofit that wants to levelset their entire board, and then
(16:50):
the boards were programmed, isan assessment process and helps
them really find opportunitiesand then does a retreat around
those opportunities that theyfind.
But that boardsmanship brush uphas just been this really
important thing that we foundwas needed, has just been this
really important thing that wefound was needed, and I hope,
you know, after boardsmanshipbrush up and after boards work,
(17:13):
that they go back to Bayer andthey continue their professional
development journey and theyput together a professional
development plan for theirboards, because it's just as
important as for their paid teammembers monkey pod brings
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I think the theme that I'mhearing from both of you, right,
(18:16):
is like it doesn't matter ifyou're the board or the
executive team or the managementteam, whatever it is.
It's this idea that that, yes,the work you're doing is really
important, but that doesn't meanthat you are not also worth
investing in, right, and I thinksometimes that's the mentality
of man.
(18:36):
We have all this, there's somuch work to do all the time,
and that's that is going to betrue forever and ever.
And so it almost feels selfishand I know that that's the wrong
word, but it almost feelsselfish to say I'm going to take
this time for me, right?
So if you were talking to andI'm curious to, I would love to
(18:58):
have both of you answer this Ifyou're talking to an executive
director who's like, yeah, thatthat all sounds great, I don't
know where I would make the time.
I don't know how I wouldconvince everybody else that
this is worth their time.
What does that argument looklike?
What is the thing you would sayto somebody for why this is so
important, both to thempersonally and to their
(19:19):
organization?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
It seems the professional development in
within the nonprofit landscapeoften is looked at as a luxury
and we look at class topics, forexample, things like how to
move a donor from one size giftto another size gift, how to get
(19:43):
your board to fundraise,fundraising, fundraising,
fundraising, but also thingslike making sure you are
referring to your strategic planon the regular basis, that it
doesn't sit on a shelf andcollect dust.
Those are kinds of sessionsthat are like, okay, maybe we
can make time for this.
But then there's things likewhat's your leadership style and
(20:05):
how does that come from yourvalues and how do you leverage
that to be a better leader, oreven things like helping the
helpers, preventing burnout.
We find that there's a realdivide between the amount of
people who will come to atechnical fundraising class than
the people who would come to aburnout prevention class.
(20:26):
It's like I only get a hundredbucks a year for professional
development.
It better be something that Ican come back to my board or my
director and say I learned thisand I increased our individual
giving by 10% because of thetactics I learned.
That's a hard argument to say.
I would like to spend the moneyon a class on how to develop
(20:49):
better coaching skills, how tobe a better leader, exactly.
And so, on one hand, you wereasking you know what's the
argument?
What's the case we can make isthat if you're able to invest a
little bit of time, energy andsometimes money, right, that
will come back to you bylearning something, an
efficiency All of a sudden, thisthing that you've been doing
(21:12):
this way for five years.
You learned how to do it thatway and it takes you half the
amount of time or theeffectiveness in that you had
done an annual appeal at the endof the year every year, took a
class on how to use data andstorytelling, applied that to
the annual appeal and itincreased end of the year giving
(21:35):
.
So there's that argument.
And then there's just the factthat sometimes we need to offer
things for free because we knowit's important and we know that
people aren't going to be ableto make a case to invest money
in it.
Last semester, we offered afree class on the effects of
(21:57):
menopause at work.
We have an amazing volunteerwho teaches for us.
She's a PhD.
She has expertise in leadershipdevelopment, coaching, also
change management, but she'spersonally on a mission from God
to help people understandwhat's up with menopause, how it
makes you feel, how it affectsyou in the workplace and whether
(22:19):
or not you are a person whowill ever personally experience
menopause.
You are going to work alongsidepeople who are how do we look
at this?
With grace and with forgivenessand with support, that kind of
thing.
So, you know, sometimes we justneed to look at something that
needs to be addressed we knowpeople aren't going to invest
(22:39):
money in it and say this isimportant enough that we just
need to get together and talkabout this, you know,
anecdotally, so that you knowthat you're not alone.
So, yeah, and speaking of notbeing alone, one of the so that
you know that you're not alone.
So, yeah, and speaking of notbeing alone, one of the biggest
things that we see have seensuccess in is our executive
director huddles Second Thursdayof every month from noon to one
(22:59):
on Zoom.
It is just to get together andtalk about what they're
struggling with.
Being an executive director is alonely position, um, being an
executive director is a lonelyposition, um, your board is
there to help, but you alsodon't want to have to bounce
every small problem off of them,because then you know, it makes
you look like you don't knowwhat you're doing or that you
(23:21):
need more help or that kind ofthing, and you can't really
bounce those things off your,your staff, because you're
supposed to be the one who knowswhat to do, and so there's
great strength in getting withother like-minded people in
similar positions and talkingabout what's hard, how we
(23:43):
consider tackling that hardthing and celebrating when we're
able to make some progressthere.
So there's definitely strengthin friendships and in networking
with other people who dosimilar work.
There are so many commonalitiesin what people are struggling
with and just talking about themwithout an agenda.
(24:05):
We have a great facilitator,wendy Burtner, who comes to each
one with a question in her hippocket in case people aren't
talking, but she's never had touse it.
So, yeah, there's justsomething special about that
kind of learning as well.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, jamie, what would you say is kind of the
case for this on the board side?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So I would say I have a case for both sides.
I just wanted to build on whatcarrie said, because I think
there is this perception changethat needs to happen and carrie
kind of got this that we need tochange the, the kind of
perspective we have on roi androi k, whatever our letters of
(24:50):
the day are, because honestly, Ifeel like organizations can't
afford and this is both on boardand the nonprofit professional
side we can't afford not toprofessionally develop our staff
and our board.
So often we have board memberswho don't know what they're
doing right Leading anorganization of potential
(25:11):
professionals that might notknow what they're doing.
You know, you see, so often innonprofits you know the social
worker that was a great socialworker who's now a social worker
supervisor, who now is the lastperson standing and is the
executive director.
They were an amazing socialworker, right.
That doesn't mean they have theskill set to run an actual
(25:32):
company To run a corporation,you know, and so I think we see
that so often in the nonprofitsector because of you know the
just nature of the nonprofitbusiness model.
It's not really sustainable ifyou look at it from that
perspective.
But we also, you know, we don'tpay our people enough and we
(25:54):
don't have a professional enoughview of our folks, and so I
just feel like you can't affordnot to build professional
development and infrastructurein because, like Kerry said, you
might not see that immediateincrease in fundraising but you
might see an extension of tenureof staff.
One of the last organizations Iworked at, I think our average
(26:17):
tenure was like 16 months with asocial worker and it would take
six months to onboard them.
So really you have 10 months ofsomeone before they start
checking out.
And so you know we can't affordnot to have our bus feet
forward and as upskilled as wepossibly can be in the nonprofit
(26:37):
sector.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So to that end, that talk about the investment.
So if it takes you six monthsto onboard somebody and then
they're going to transition outin under a year, what is the
cost to the organization?
Exactly, you want to talk aboutthe ROI.
If you are a leader who iscreating a culture where people
do stay and you're notconstantly having to go spend
(27:00):
money on recruiting and trainingand all of those things, then
that does have an impact to thebottom line of the organization.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Absolutely.
You just need to shift yourperspective to say what is the
long run of taking thisleadership development course,
what is the long game inlearning how to exit people
gracefully and what is the longgame in learning about my
leadership style and how thatcould potentially have a ripple
(27:25):
effect on my team, on myorganization and, ultimately,
our community.
Where we're?
You know where we're doing ourwork every day.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I think a big problem with all of this is
general public perception ofwhat nonprofits should be
spending their money on.
Absolutely Every year at theend of the year you get these
Facebook posts it like so and soorganization has 40 overhead,
you know, and it's like, yeah,these are salaries and
(27:58):
professional development and newcomputers and things like that.
And this, this perception thatyou know the vast majority of
nonprofit funding should bedirectly to the cause.
Just, the math does not work.
You know, talk to somebody in,you know, in a for-profit entity
(28:23):
that's well, this money allneeds to be going to actually
manufacturing the widgets, notthe people doing it.
And it's like, no, no, no, no,I need a salary and it needs to
be reasonable, that kind ofthing.
But this public perception ofprofessional development for
updated technology, forfacilities, different things
(28:46):
like that, really there needs tobe a sea change there and one
way to do that is to serve on anonprofit board.
That you're coming from thepublic or the private sector and
you're serving on a nonprofitboard and all of a sudden it
makes sense.
What that financial statementreally says is what it needs to
(29:07):
be the work is being done, thepeople are being employed.
That's.
The win-win there is that thenonprofit sector also employs a
ton of people.
This is a legitimate careerchoice and you know we talk
about, not something you fallinto because you couldn't hack
it in the private sector.
(29:28):
Exactly, or that.
You know, I'm just a.
You know someone who isindependently wealthy, and do
this out of the goodness of myheart, you know.
No, these are real careerchoices and real careers and
getting folks to realize thatmoney needs to be spent to save
the world and not just on.
You know the end result, buthow we're getting there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I love that.
So I man, this conversation isso important and I wish that we
had a whole lot more time tokeep having it.
So we may just have to have youboth back on, but if this has
kind of struck somebody and theywanted to learn more, how would
they go about finding eitherthe Bayer Center or the
Convestro Center to like,connect more and see what
resources are available toactually make this investment in
(30:15):
their organizations?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Thanks for asking we could go to.
So we are both.
The Bayer Center for NonprofitManagement and the Convestro
Center for Community Engagementare both part of Robert Morris
University's Rockwell School ofBusiness.
If you were to go tormuedunonprofits you'd find a
(30:38):
hub that gives information forboth of our programming.
Our course catalog that runsfrom the end of January through
early May is up.
Registration is open.
Jamie, do you want to talkabout some of the things that
people could take advantage ofimmediately at the Covestro
Center?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
So again on that nonprofit hub site you will see
information about CovestroCenter.
We are currently recruitingnonprofits for our Boardsburg
program.
So if you feel like you'rebored, we'd love some
professional development.
Definitely reach out to me andwe can talk through the
different programs.
Also, I'm offering aboardsmanship brush up class
(31:17):
through the Bayer Center, opento everyone, or, if you'd like,
a private one for yourorganization, you can talk to me
as well.
But really, if you talk toeither of us, we can get you in
the right place.
Carrie and I work together,even though we're separated by a
floor.
We work together seamlessly andyou can receive services or
information from both of usabout either of our programs.
(31:40):
So we just really want toconnect with you and find out
how we can best serve you.
And even though we're locatedin Southwestern PA, carrie's
programs are very easilytranslated, with her online
classes, and so are my programs,so we can serve anyone across
the country.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Awesome, that's fantastic.
Well, ladies, thank you so much.
I really appreciate theconversation.
I think it's such a criticalpiece, especially for all of our
leaders who are listening tothe podcast, to understand the
importance of investing inthemselves, so I'm excited that
there are other opportunitiesout there for them with that,
and I appreciate the work thatyou're both doing in that sector
for sure.
(32:19):
So thanks for being here.
Thank you All right, this hasbeen another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
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nonprofithub.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andjoining me today are Keri
Richards and Jamie Simmons.
I'm very excited to dig intosome leadership development and
(00:47):
the importance of continuingeducation and leadership and
professional development forleaders, both on the board level
and in the executive leadershipon nonprofits, because I think
sometimes it's really easy toneglect ourselves as leaders and
let the day-to-day get us toobusy.
So I'm excited to dig into theimportance of that today.
Ladies, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Yeah, my pleasure.
So, carrie, let's start withyou.
Tell me a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into
nonprofit work in the firstplace.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Sure, so my story has a little bit of a churchy
beginning.
I went to undergraduate school,to Eastern College, now
university, to become a youthminister.
Did that the school was thelate recently late.
Tony Campolo was a professorthere who was a great advocate
for social justice and people offaith getting involved in
(01:41):
social activism.
Graduated, realized I did notwant to be youth minister.
Got a job at a nonprofitorganization in my neighborhood
called the Pittsburgh Project,kind of doing program management
type things.
Realized this is a path I'dreally like to take and then, to
be honest, didn't want to takeout a whole lot more student
loans to go through a master'sprogram in something nonprofit
(02:05):
focused.
I ended up here at Robert MorrisUniversity in an entry-level
position at the Bayer Center forNonprofit Management.
That was almost 18 years agoand I have been working to help
nonprofits do their work moreefficiently and effectively for
(02:25):
about 17 years.
Primarily my focus is throughprofessional development,
through non-credit short classesthat you can learn something on
the fly that will help youtomorrow, help you in the next
hour after the class is over, toboth professionalize nonprofit
work and to help nonprofits betaken more seriously both folks
(02:47):
who work for the nonprofitsector and the work that they do
, that it is a legitimateprofession.
It is important, and that's mysoapbox.
That's my soapbox is thatnonprofit employees are
legitimate, smart people and nota pat on the head oh, that's
(03:07):
nice, you do that to help people.
No, this is important work andso, yep, that's kind of where I
started, and I'm still hereafter a long time, so obviously
something is clicking for me.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's awesome, I love it.
And then, jamie, you kind ofwork alongside Carrie.
Or tell me a little bit aboutyour journey there as well.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, so Carrie and I work at sister centers at RMU.
So RMU has two centers that ourentire purpose is to help make
the world a better place throughnonprofits, and so I am lucky
to be Carrie's co-worker.
You know, we work together verywell.
Our centers work together verywell.
(03:48):
My nonprofit journey startedbecause I started working at a
children's museum when I was 17here in Pittsburgh and I was
going to film school and I wasgoing to be a film director.
But I started working at thischildren's museum and when I was
at the children's museum overthe next three years of being
there, I realized there werethese things called nonprofits
(04:11):
and that people.
You know, I went to my firstfundraiser and I was like, wait
a second, people give you moneyand it was.
It was like this opening of adoor into the nonprofit sector,
and so I kind of kept thatnugget in the back of my head as
I was continuing my journey tobe a film director and then a
film scholar.
(04:32):
And then I started a master'sdegree in film and realized I
hated film because I'd beenstudying it too long and I was
like maybe I should go and I'dbeen working in nonprofits.
I was like maybe I should workin nonprofits.
And I haven't looked back.
I've been in nonprofit work forover 20 years.
I've done everything fromfrontline work in, you know,
(04:53):
edutainment nonprofits, all theway through really important
work at Child Welfare Agency andthat brought me here to the
Covestor Center where I get tonow kind of put that gigantic
20-year toolbox to work inhelping nonprofits partner with
(05:15):
outside organizations andoutside professionals to make
their organization stronger,typically through board
development.
And so I really think it'simportant that nonprofit boards
continue their developmentprocess and aren't just a rubber
stamp for the organization butreally take their board service
(05:37):
and their board commitment veryseriously and their commitment
to the betterment of thecommunities that they serve and
through their organization.
So that's kind of how I endedup here.
It's just by working at achildren's museum.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
I love it, that's awesome.
Well, I'm really excited to digin today because I'm going to
go back to something that Carriesaid in her introduction, which
is this idea that, like it'scute that you work in a
nonprofit, right, that's sosweet, like good for you, right,
but we don't tend to maybe givepeople the the kudos they
(06:15):
deserve for the right things,right?
Yes, it's great that you wantto change the world and you want
to have an impact and you wantto make the world a better place
, but there is a level ofprofessionalism and a level of
education, or a level of evenintelligence that folks bring to
the table that I thinkoftentimes gets ignored because
we just we do want to pat thosefolks on the head and say good
(06:37):
job, well, good for you.
So, Carrie, talk to me a littlebit from your perspective about
where that idea comes from andhow we, as leaders, as folks who
run nonprofits, how do we helpfight against that?
How do we help change thatstigma?
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, other than just having a soapbox to shout out
to anyone who will hear likethank you podcast listeners.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Or then sharing this podcast with the world Right.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
It starts with the name non-profit.
There have been campaigns fromthe non-profit sector to get
that change to the social sectoror um, something like that,
because it talks about what wedon't do.
We don't make a profit.
That doesn't't mean we can'thave money left over at the end
of the year that we can thenreinvest into our programs.
But it does not mean that thepeople who run the organization
get a big kickback if there's achunk of money at the end.
(07:35):
But just looking at the factthat we do not benefit
financially from any money leftover at the end of the year
automatically puts us at a justa step down from folks who work
in the private sector.
A lot of times, also becausenonprofits have to run on a bare
(07:59):
bones budget, some professionalbest practices get put on a
back burner.
A lot of that from theprofessional standpoint is HR,
is development, leadershipdevelopment.
It is preventing burnout.
It is making sure that peopleare equipped to move from
(08:19):
something like a programmaticrole or a frontline role to a
supervisory role, but notconsidering the professional
development that needs to happenin order to make that
transition successful, to setthose folks up for success.
So through our course catalogwe offer about 80 to 90 sessions
(08:40):
a year that are one to twohours through Zoom, but
interactively, not a talkinghead on fundraising, board
governance, human resources,leadership development,
marketing and technology Some ofthe things that we do.
We focus a lot on HR andleadership development because
that is something that's soimportant and something that is
(09:02):
often ignored.
In our catalog that we justlaunched for the spring, we are
debuting a couple new classes,one called Exit Stage Left, with
Grace and Compassion when youhave to let someone go.
It is complicated in thenonprofit world because there's
(09:22):
so much care and dedication tothe work and kind of a family
mentality sets in.
You know we're doing thistogether, we're saving the world
together.
So how do you professionalizethat particular aspect of being
an employer?
Also, you know helping thehelpers burnout prevention when
(09:43):
your job is to make sure kidsare eating lunch every day and
you're seeing things like hungerand poverty firsthand as your
job, it takes a toll to continueto give and to continue to give
(10:08):
and continue to give and makingsure that those folks are being
cared for, both professionally,in a well thought out way, is
also very important.
So you know, because things arealways changing, we need to be
honing our skills, both in ourcareers and what's going on in
the outside environment.
So when we're putting ourclasses together, we look at a
(10:31):
couple different things.
We look at what we've offeredbefore, how we can improve it
and continue to modify it tomake sure that it's continuing
to adapt to new technologies,new things going on, new trends,
things like that.
We ask people what else wouldyou like to learn about?
When we survey people afterclasses and develop those things
(10:52):
.
And we also look at what'sgoing on in the political
climate, the environmentalclimate.
What's happening?
Are there new governmentregulations that nonprofits need
to consider when they'recollecting data?
Are grant makers looking fornew trends?
And for a while it was logicmodels, for a while it was
(11:12):
mergers, for a while it waspartnerships what are those
things?
And just kind of trying to lookat the ever-changing landscape
of the need of people and how toadapt those skills and how to
adapt those leadership stylesand things to accommodate an
(11:33):
ever-changing environment.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I love that and I think so often.
I love the list that you hadabout the types of content that
you guys are focused on, becauseI feel like so often the only
continuing education pieces thatwe see in the nonprofit space
are about fundraising goingtowards your CFRE, and that's
great for a fundraiser but thatleaves behind everybody else.
(11:58):
So I love that.
That's fundraising wasn't evenon your list and we do offer
some fundraising classes, butthere's so much more to it, and
I think so often I've talked toso many non-profit professionals
who got into it because they dohave that desire.
They want to impact the cause,they want to change the world,
(12:20):
they want to do better and andgrow their good, but that
doesn't always translate to thethe professional skills they
need to do better and grow theirgood, but that doesn't always
translate to the professionalskills they need to do it Right.
That doesn't always mean thatyou have a background in how to
fire somebody or how to manage aconflict or a PR crisis or any
of the things that can come up.
(12:41):
So, equally and, jamie, I'mgoing to get your take on this,
because, equally, I feel like weend up with a lot of folks on
nonprofit boards who don't evenknow why they're there Right,
they don't necessarily evenunderstand the role of the board
sometimes, or they just endedup there because they happen to
(13:02):
be a really good donor and sothey have this seat on the board
.
And so tell me a little bitabout why it's so important to
have that education for theboard as well, and what that
looks like from your side onConfestro.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Yeah, no, that's a great question.
I wish more people asked thisquestion.
Right, we would have betterboards.
So I think you're so right.
I think people end up on boardsfor a number of reasons.
Right, and honestly, I'd prefera donor on a board than a best
friend of the executive director.
(13:35):
Right, because we don't haveenough board members to meet our
bylaws right, but there's alldifferent reasons why people end
up on boards and I would say ahuge commonality is what do we
do?
And sometimes nonprofit boardshave not taken the time to build
(13:56):
the infrastructure forthemselves.
You know, when I am teaching aboards work class to either, you
know, in a company setting youknow I recently did one for
American Eagle, right, and whereI went in and I taught a bunch
of their team members how to beboard members or if I'm doing a
mixed cohort with people fromall different sectors.
(14:19):
I think one of the things peopleare always very struck by is
the fact that boards are reallyself-governing, right.
They choose themselves, theynominate their leaders, they
evaluate themselves and they'rein charge of their own
professional development.
Like they are in charge,they're a self-governing entity
(14:41):
that is there to really protectthe public interest, right?
That's the point of the board.
Yes, the board is also there toensure the organization is
moving forward and is meetingits duties and, you know, is
doing what they say they shouldbe doing.
But they're there to protectthe public good and to kind of
(15:01):
usher the nonprofit forward.
That's a big shock to people ofusher the nonprofit forward.
That's a big shock to people.
Wait, I have all these dutiesand responsibilities and so
something like so, carrie and I,when I so I've been here a
little under a year and I and Itook the helm of the Covestro
Center after a small, a smallbreak.
There was a small break inprogramming at Covestro, but
(15:23):
there were two really signatureprograms of the Cabestro Center
Boardswork and Skillshare.
Carrie and I were talking aboutBoardswork and I was talking to
different organizations aboutBoardswork and we'll talk about
Boardswork in a second.
But it's a great program.
But it seemed like there wassomething missing because people
(15:44):
just needed a level setting.
And so Carrie and I developedthis boardsmanship brush-up
class, which is a two-hour classthat's offered through Bayer,
which is just a level setting ofwhat does a board do, and it's
set for people that are brandnew to boards or people that
need that brush-up of what aremy responsibilities, because we
(16:06):
were seeing there was a huge gapand a huge need for this basic
education of people that havebeen on boards for years, and
that should be something that'scoming from internally, inside
of the infrastructure of theboard.
But if the nonprofitprofessionals don't have time to
build solid, sustainableinfrastructure, how can we
expect their boards to buildsolid, sustainable
infrastructure?
(16:27):
How can we expect their boardsto build solid, sustainable
infrastructure?
And so it's something thatwe've introduced this year and
it's been wildly successful toget people with a baseline
knowledge, where either theysend a bunch of people to a
boardmanship brush up or I'll doone specifically for a
nonprofit that wants to levelset their entire board, and then
(16:50):
the boards were programmed, isan assessment process and helps
them really find opportunitiesand then does a retreat around
those opportunities that theyfind.
But that boardsmanship brush uphas just been this really
important thing that we foundwas needed, has just been this
really important thing that wefound was needed, and I hope,
you know, after boardsmanshipbrush up and after boards work,
(17:13):
that they go back to Bayer andthey continue their professional
development journey and theyput together a professional
development plan for theirboards, because it's just as
important as for their paid teammembers monkey pod brings
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Speaker 1 (17:34):
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I think the theme that I'mhearing from both of you, right,
(18:16):
is like it doesn't matter ifyou're the board or the
executive team or the managementteam, whatever it is.
It's this idea that that, yes,the work you're doing is really
important, but that doesn't meanthat you are not also worth
investing in, right, and I thinksometimes that's the mentality
of man.
(18:36):
We have all this, there's somuch work to do all the time,
and that's that is going to betrue forever and ever.
And so it almost feels selfishand I know that that's the wrong
word, but it almost feelsselfish to say I'm going to take
this time for me, right?
So if you were talking to andI'm curious to, I would love to
(18:58):
have both of you answer this Ifyou're talking to an executive
director who's like, yeah, thatthat all sounds great, I don't
know where I would make the time.
I don't know how I wouldconvince everybody else that
this is worth their time.
What does that argument looklike?
What is the thing you would sayto somebody for why this is so
important, both to thempersonally and to their
(19:19):
organization?
Speaker 2 (19:23):
It seems the professional development in
within the nonprofit landscapeoften is looked at as a luxury
and we look at class topics, forexample, things like how to
move a donor from one size giftto another size gift, how to get
(19:43):
your board to fundraise,fundraising, fundraising,
fundraising, but also thingslike making sure you are
referring to your strategic planon the regular basis, that it
doesn't sit on a shelf andcollect dust.
Those are kinds of sessionsthat are like, okay, maybe we
can make time for this.
But then there's things likewhat's your leadership style and
(20:05):
how does that come from yourvalues and how do you leverage
that to be a better leader, oreven things like helping the
helpers, preventing burnout.
We find that there's a realdivide between the amount of
people who will come to atechnical fundraising class than
the people who would come to aburnout prevention class.
(20:26):
It's like I only get a hundredbucks a year for professional
development.
It better be something that Ican come back to my board or my
director and say I learned thisand I increased our individual
giving by 10% because of thetactics I learned.
That's a hard argument to say.
I would like to spend the moneyon a class on how to develop
(20:49):
better coaching skills, how tobe a better leader, exactly.
And so, on one hand, you wereasking you know what's the
argument?
What's the case we can make isthat if you're able to invest a
little bit of time, energy andsometimes money, right, that
will come back to you bylearning something, an
efficiency All of a sudden, thisthing that you've been doing
(21:12):
this way for five years.
You learned how to do it thatway and it takes you half the
amount of time or theeffectiveness in that you had
done an annual appeal at the endof the year every year, took a
class on how to use data andstorytelling, applied that to
the annual appeal and itincreased end of the year giving
(21:35):
.
So there's that argument.
And then there's just the factthat sometimes we need to offer
things for free because we knowit's important and we know that
people aren't going to be ableto make a case to invest money
in it.
Last semester, we offered afree class on the effects of
(21:57):
menopause at work.
We have an amazing volunteerwho teaches for us.
She's a PhD.
She has expertise in leadershipdevelopment, coaching, also
change management, but she'spersonally on a mission from God
to help people understandwhat's up with menopause, how it
makes you feel, how it affectsyou in the workplace and whether
(22:19):
or not you are a person whowill ever personally experience
menopause.
You are going to work alongsidepeople who are how do we look
at this?
With grace and with forgivenessand with support, that kind of
thing.
So, you know, sometimes we justneed to look at something that
needs to be addressed we knowpeople aren't going to invest
(22:39):
money in it and say this isimportant enough that we just
need to get together and talkabout this, you know,
anecdotally, so that you knowthat you're not alone.
So, yeah, and speaking of notbeing alone, one of the so that
you know that you're not alone.
So, yeah, and speaking of notbeing alone, one of the biggest
things that we see have seensuccess in is our executive
director huddles Second Thursdayof every month from noon to one
(22:59):
on Zoom.
It is just to get together andtalk about what they're
struggling with.
Being an executive director is alonely position, um, being an
executive director is a lonelyposition, um, your board is
there to help, but you alsodon't want to have to bounce
every small problem off of them,because then you know, it makes
you look like you don't knowwhat you're doing or that you
(23:21):
need more help or that kind ofthing, and you can't really
bounce those things off your,your staff, because you're
supposed to be the one who knowswhat to do, and so there's
great strength in getting withother like-minded people in
similar positions and talkingabout what's hard, how we
(23:43):
consider tackling that hardthing and celebrating when we're
able to make some progressthere.
So there's definitely strengthin friendships and in networking
with other people who dosimilar work.
There are so many commonalitiesin what people are struggling
with and just talking about themwithout an agenda.
(24:05):
We have a great facilitator,wendy Burtner, who comes to each
one with a question in her hippocket in case people aren't
talking, but she's never had touse it.
So, yeah, there's justsomething special about that
kind of learning as well.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, jamie, what would you say is kind of the
case for this on the board side?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
So I would say I have a case for both sides.
I just wanted to build on whatcarrie said, because I think
there is this perception changethat needs to happen and carrie
kind of got this that we need tochange the, the kind of
perspective we have on roi androi k, whatever our letters of
(24:50):
the day are, because honestly, Ifeel like organizations can't
afford and this is both on boardand the nonprofit professional
side we can't afford not toprofessionally develop our staff
and our board.
So often we have board memberswho don't know what they're
doing right Leading anorganization of potential
(25:11):
professionals that might notknow what they're doing.
You know, you see, so often innonprofits you know the social
worker that was a great socialworker who's now a social worker
supervisor, who now is the lastperson standing and is the
executive director.
They were an amazing socialworker, right.
That doesn't mean they have theskill set to run an actual
(25:32):
company To run a corporation,you know, and so I think we see
that so often in the nonprofitsector because of you know the
just nature of the nonprofitbusiness model.
It's not really sustainable ifyou look at it from that
perspective.
But we also, you know, we don'tpay our people enough and we
(25:54):
don't have a professional enoughview of our folks, and so I
just feel like you can't affordnot to build professional
development and infrastructurein because, like Kerry said, you
might not see that immediateincrease in fundraising but you
might see an extension of tenureof staff.
One of the last organizations Iworked at, I think our average
(26:17):
tenure was like 16 months with asocial worker and it would take
six months to onboard them.
So really you have 10 months ofsomeone before they start
checking out.
And so you know we can't affordnot to have our bus feet
forward and as upskilled as wepossibly can be in the nonprofit
(26:37):
sector.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
So to that end, that talk about the investment.
So if it takes you six monthsto onboard somebody and then
they're going to transition outin under a year, what is the
cost to the organization?
Exactly, you want to talk aboutthe ROI.
If you are a leader who iscreating a culture where people
do stay and you're notconstantly having to go spend
(27:00):
money on recruiting and trainingand all of those things, then
that does have an impact to thebottom line of the organization.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
Absolutely.
You just need to shift yourperspective to say what is the
long run of taking thisleadership development course,
what is the long game inlearning how to exit people
gracefully and what is the longgame in learning about my
leadership style and how thatcould potentially have a ripple
(27:25):
effect on my team, on myorganization and, ultimately,
our community.
Where we're?
You know where we're doing ourwork every day.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Yeah, I think a big problem with all of this is
general public perception ofwhat nonprofits should be
spending their money on.
Absolutely Every year at theend of the year you get these
Facebook posts it like so and soorganization has 40 overhead,
you know, and it's like, yeah,these are salaries and
(27:58):
professional development and newcomputers and things like that.
And this, this perception thatyou know the vast majority of
nonprofit funding should bedirectly to the cause.
Just, the math does not work.
You know, talk to somebody in,you know, in a for-profit entity
(28:23):
that's well, this money allneeds to be going to actually
manufacturing the widgets, notthe people doing it.
And it's like, no, no, no, no,I need a salary and it needs to
be reasonable, that kind ofthing.
But this public perception ofprofessional development for
updated technology, forfacilities, different things
(28:46):
like that, really there needs tobe a sea change there and one
way to do that is to serve on anonprofit board.
That you're coming from thepublic or the private sector and
you're serving on a nonprofitboard and all of a sudden it
makes sense.
What that financial statementreally says is what it needs to
(29:07):
be the work is being done, thepeople are being employed.
That's.
The win-win there is that thenonprofit sector also employs a
ton of people.
This is a legitimate careerchoice and you know we talk
about, not something you fallinto because you couldn't hack
it in the private sector.
(29:28):
Exactly, or that.
You know, I'm just a.
You know someone who isindependently wealthy, and do
this out of the goodness of myheart, you know.
No, these are real careerchoices and real careers and
getting folks to realize thatmoney needs to be spent to save
the world and not just on.
You know the end result, buthow we're getting there, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I love that.
So I man, this conversation isso important and I wish that we
had a whole lot more time tokeep having it.
So we may just have to have youboth back on, but if this has
kind of struck somebody and theywanted to learn more, how would
they go about finding eitherthe Bayer Center or the
Convestro Center to like,connect more and see what
resources are available toactually make this investment in
(30:15):
their organizations?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Thanks for asking we could go to.
So we are both.
The Bayer Center for NonprofitManagement and the Convestro
Center for Community Engagementare both part of Robert Morris
University's Rockwell School ofBusiness.
If you were to go tormuedunonprofits you'd find a
(30:38):
hub that gives information forboth of our programming.
Our course catalog that runsfrom the end of January through
early May is up.
Registration is open.
Jamie, do you want to talkabout some of the things that
people could take advantage ofimmediately at the Covestro
Center?
Speaker 3 (30:56):
So again on that nonprofit hub site you will see
information about CovestroCenter.
We are currently recruitingnonprofits for our Boardsburg
program.
So if you feel like you'rebored, we'd love some
professional development.
Definitely reach out to me andwe can talk through the
different programs.
Also, I'm offering aboardsmanship brush up class
(31:17):
through the Bayer Center, opento everyone, or, if you'd like,
a private one for yourorganization, you can talk to me
as well.
But really, if you talk toeither of us, we can get you in
the right place.
Carrie and I work together,even though we're separated by a
floor.
We work together seamlessly andyou can receive services or
information from both of usabout either of our programs.
(31:40):
So we just really want toconnect with you and find out
how we can best serve you.
And even though we're locatedin Southwestern PA, carrie's
programs are very easilytranslated, with her online
classes, and so are my programs,so we can serve anyone across
the country.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Awesome, that's fantastic.
Well, ladies, thank you so much.
I really appreciate theconversation.
I think it's such a criticalpiece, especially for all of our
leaders who are listening tothe podcast, to understand the
importance of investing inthemselves, so I'm excited that
there are other opportunitiesout there for them with that,
and I appreciate the work thatyou're both doing in that sector
for sure.
(32:19):
So thanks for being here.
Thank you All right, this hasbeen another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
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