October 3, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode of the Nonprofit Hub Podcast, guest Ben Mohler, chief executive and consultant at Giving Three and author of Nonprofit Board Member Field Guide and Journal, unpacks the realities of nonprofit board leadership. Drawing on decades of experience, he offers practical insights on how organizations can move beyond filling seats with well-meaning supporters to cultivating governing boards that truly represent and advance the mission. From clarifying the different types of boards, to navigating fundraising expectations, to fostering healthy board culture and accountability, this conversation equips nonprofit leaders with both encouragement and actionable strategies for building stronger, more effective boards.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear.
Joining me today is Ben Muller,who's the chief executive and
chief consultant at Giving3.
Excited to dig in here today,Ben, because we're going to be
talking about boards and this isone of the most requested
topics that we get at NonprofitHub, because it is oh, it can be
such a challenge, especiallyfor smaller or startup
(00:42):
nonprofits, to get this rightfrom the jump, but it makes all
the difference.
So I cannot wait to hear yourwisdom on the subject.
We're going to be actuallytalking about Ben's new book,
Nonprofit Board Member FieldGuide and Journal.
I have my copy right here.
Very excited to dig into all ofthat, Ben.
Welcome in.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Thank you, it's good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
So tell us a little bit about yourself and your
background in your nonprofitjourney that got you to where
you are today and to the pointof realizing that this book was
such a need in the space.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, I think, having listened to your podcast, I
think I'm probably one of theoutliers in that my first
full-time job was in nonprofits.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay, that is definitely different.
I feel like everyone else comeson and says I didn't really
mean to fall into fundraising, Ididn't really mean to fall into
non-profit work.
Uh, they just ended up there.
So you were yeah on it yeah andwhat, but?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
but the path to it was was unintentional.
So I thought I wanted to be anengineer.
Actually, as a kid I wanted tobe a fighter, a jet fighter
pilot, and then I realized thatI didn't want to spend all my
time in front of a computer.
I like to be around people andI just.
It was one of those, you knowthis, moments where I met
(01:56):
someone that worked in thesector and they said, hey, have
you ever considered this as afield?
And I said no, and so Iexplored it and, like, right
when I graduated from college Istarted working in the sector.
So my first job was at theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
and I was really fortunate thatin that first role I was working
(02:18):
with the board for thefoundation.
And so you know, from thatmoment forward, even some when I
was in college, in high school,I was working with boards.
But that was like the firstlike full-time hands-on with a
board.
And you know, there's a lot ofthings that I observed and some
(02:38):
things like I just like assumedit was the way things were.
And then, as I grew in theprofession, I realized some
things were the way they were.
And then, as I grew in theprofession, I realized some
things were the way they werebecause no one else had really
challenged it or looked atpotentials for change and so
like.
Over the years, as I added oneducation and practical
experience and was able to testwith the boards that I worked
(02:59):
with, I saw where we could startto move the lines and how we
could start to equip boards, sothat that's kind of the the
cliff notes of.
I don't know, is that even aterm nowadays, cliff notes, or
is it like I?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
assume so how else, how else do people, I think, the
?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
kids nowadays, the kids nowadays.
I think it's like tldr oh, toolong read yeah, I think that's,
that's the yeah the summationthe modern yes got it.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I didn't realize that .
I didn't realize those twothings were synonyms, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I think that's the cleavage.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, the summation the modern, yes, Got it.
I didn't realize that.
I didn't realize those twothings were synonyms.
Yeah, we're going to make it so.
Yeah, I'm learning already.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
It is now, yes, so that was kind of the book.
Where we are today is kind offrom those early seeds.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Okay, that's great.
So one of the things that Ibecause I do have my copy one of
the things that I think isreally interesting and I'd like
to kind of start here today is Ithink people take on, okay, I'm
going to be on the board, right, and we don't always define
even what type of board you'reon, right.
(04:01):
Each organization is a littlebit different in that regard.
So I want to kind of level setand talk about the types of
boards and then specificallyfocus on that governing type
today, because I think that'swhat the majority of our
audience has.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But I'd love to hear your take two on how we make
sure that the board understandsthose roles and what that means.
So break down the three typesfor me first, and then let's
focus in on that oh, I didn'tknow.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
There's gonna be a test on this podcast I mean you
wrote the book, ben.
Yes, so there I'm gonna pull mycopy because I don't want to
get it wrong, because you put meon the spot here.
Oh, and I'm, if you'refollowing along in the book, is
this?
I feel like, uh, as a kid wehad, like the books on tape
right and, like they would say,the page number in your book.
(04:51):
It's page number, whatever.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So in the book.
If you're following along, youneed help.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Page number nine yeah , there are there.
There's advisory, a communityand governing.
Yeah, oh, look at that.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, um so, I read your book.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
I'm a podcast host well, I haven't.
I haven't ever since, like ifwe finished the final edits,
I've kind of not thought aboutit, but now I guess I gotta
think about it again.
Welcome back, yes, welcome backto the book.
So, yeah, the um, the mostboards are going to be governing
boards.
So those are boards where youare called on to.
Basically you are protectingthe greater good, you are
(05:27):
serving the interests of thecommunity and so your fiduciary,
your governing board, you'relooking at how you can protect
the interests of the community.
So that's the typical, like thelegal board.
Then you have advisory boardsand a lot of folks will be on
advisory boards and say they'reon a board and think they're on
a governing board.
But an advisory board is reallyfolks that have knowledge, have
(05:48):
expertise and they bring thatto the organization and they
help advise, but they're notactually voting on, like they're
not assessing the performanceof the CEO, they're not looking
at the financials.
They may be looking at thefinancials but not really, like
you know, going through theaudit process and reviewing the
audit notes, like all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And if there's something wrong in the
financials, they have noliability.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yes, and then the community board.
It's like you know, I was onthe community board once and it
was for a hospital and it wasreally just a way for the
organization to engage thecommunity, to make sure that
they were connected to theaudience that they served, and
so it's a way for folks to, youknow, have a voice, have a role,
bring some value to theorganization, but not have, you
(06:34):
know, really a deeper commitmentof having to attend meetings.
And generally my experience isit's kind of a, it's a scale of,
like community boards is alittle less structured, maybe a
little bit less organized, is alittle less structured, maybe a
little bit less organized, alittle less formal, and then
advisory boards, a little bitmore of all those things, and
then the governing board is fullon, like all those things.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Okay, so let's presume, for the duration of
this conversation then, thatwe're talking about governing
boards, because that isultimately like, legally, you
have to have one right, yes,there is somebody that is in
charge.
What I see so often isorganizations who especially
maybe in their startup mode, theboard is the founder's mom and
(07:18):
their college roommate and theircousin's husband and you know a
bunch of cheerleaders, which isis helpful, but I would think
and you can certainly dispute meif I'm wrong I would think
there has to be a better way tostart yeah right, the problem
with that to the let's talkstart.
Let's start with those startupfolks yeah how do we do it right
(07:39):
from the jump?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
so I use an analogy in my trainings and the book if
you haven't read it has a subtlegardening theme because I've
found so many analogies that arejust ripe for the picking pun
intended one is in the board.
If you plant like early summer,you plant a lot of zucchini.
Like in the spring, as youplant a lot of zucchini by the
(08:01):
middle of summer, you're goingto be really upset that all you
have is like zucchini, likezucchini out the year.
After your ears yeah and thesame is true if you're
recruiting like startup and yourecruit a bunch of cheerleaders
and your friends, like folksthat are, like you know, on your
side, and you get to a pointwhere you're ready to grow and
(08:22):
change and you, like you'relimited to you can you're
limited to you can make zucchinibread, you can make zucchini
stir fry like there's only somany ways you can do zucchini
and after a while you get tiredof the same thing, and so I
always encourage, like you'relooking for folks that you know
represent the community,represent the mission, and so it
(08:43):
may be hard to find folks.
You may have to start withfolks that know you and know
your passion, but you reallyquickly need to pivot and get
folks that represent the mission, represent the community,
because that's where you'regoing to start to be able to
hold yourself accountable andreally impact the mission in a
way that is, I think, most folksreally want to impact.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And when it comes to skill set, I've heard people say
you know, you want to findsomebody with a financial
background, you want to findsomeone with a legal background,
you want to find somebody who'sreally well connected to maybe
the philanthropic community inyour area or has maybe some more
resources.
Is there kind of a checklistthat we should be looking for?
Or is passion for theorganization enough in that
(09:31):
startup phase?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
So it follows two different paths.
One is it depends on theorganization and what it does,
and another path is the stage atwhich the organization is, and
so if you're grassroots,starting up, you don't need a
lot of deep expertise.
Folks that are going to getfrustrated that you're doing the
(09:55):
basics.
Also, if you are a bigorganization and you've been
around for a while, you're goingto want folks that represent a
broad spectrum, like you're notgoing to want.
You know, I just saw someoneactually commented on the book
like a checklist of things.
You want a banker, an attorneyand a left-handed venture
capitalist.
(10:19):
So my general advice is you'regoing to want to build a board
matrix and flesh out what arethe roles that are critical for
us to have in terms of providingguidance and insight on where
we need to be and how we'redoing.
But I also want to cautionfolks.
A lot of folks will say, well,we're a working board and the
(10:39):
challenge with a working boardis it blurs the lines between
governance and volunteer, and weactually I just had this
conversation.
I was doing a workshop, aday-long workshop in Canada and
actually in Alberta, calgary,alberta so people, that actually
know our friends up north, yes,and they.
(11:03):
We were talking about boards andworking boards and it was a
really great discussion becauseI think a lot of organizations
as a shortcut because they don'thave time to manage a lot of
different boards is that theyjust smush them into one.
But the challenge you have in aboard meeting is that it is so
easy to focus on the day-to-dayif you are a volunteer board and
(11:26):
not really focus on holdingyourself accountable, looking at
a long-term vision, those sortof things, having a generative
perspective about what is ourpurpose and sense-making of how
do we address it.
And so having that line of avolunteer board versus a
(11:46):
governing board is critical, notto say you can't have a working
board.
But I would always like createa firewall and say, okay, this
is a board meeting, we're goingto be, it's a board meeting and
the working board you know,working on whatever the
communication plan that's goingto be next week or whatever,
like you, separate the two sothat you can that you can table
it for volunteer work.
(12:09):
So that's a challenge I thinkthat a lot of organizations face
in terms of when they'rerecruiting board members.
I think part of it comes downto.
There's no finishing school forboard service.
Yeah, like, I think, people inthe corporate world, people that
(12:30):
are in the for-profit, theprivate space, they, when
they're on boards, theyunderstand what they're doing
because it's part of their DNAof business.
The role of a nonprofit boardis very different, and so
sometimes there's thiscommunication gap.
When those folks join the board, what is their role?
And they'll start to come at itwith a for-profit perspective
(12:55):
where they understand that theirrole is different.
And that's part of thechallenge, I see, is that when
we bring them in, we're nothelping prepare them for how
it's different and help them beready to address those
differences, and that's reallykind of what the book gets to.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah.
So I want to shift gears alittle bit away from maybe those
initial startup.
How do we start?
Well, because I think a largemajority of us find ourselves
like we've been in the game awhile, organization's been
around for a while, we mighthave crossed those lines between
governance and working board.
Things are a little, maybe alittle too knotted up between
(13:35):
the two, or we have New boardmembers who don't necessarily
always understand their role onthe board.
So if somebody was saying youknow what?
Look, I understand that this isa challenge for our
organization.
We're kind of in a mess of itat the moment.
What's the first step to getout of the mess?
Like, how do we shift gears?
Where do we even start to tryand fix a problem like that?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
That's a great question.
So I get this a lot withorganizations that they call me
up and they say, hey, you know,they recognize our board's a
mess or we need to change thedynamic.
But I think the biggest issuethat they face is that it's
easier to do nothing than it isto do something.
And so and the organizationsthat actually start to make
(14:24):
progress when they've had thatrealization that they need to do
something.
It's important to fall throughand to do something, and I would
even say it doesn't matter whatyou do, but do something.
So I'm personally, I'm a bigfan of border treats.
Okay, I think the border treatshelp the board really
(14:44):
understand that the game ischanging, that things are
getting real and it's like we'regetting serious.
Because for a board to have tocarve out and make time to not
be distracted and to be togetherfor a half day hopefully a full
day, even better, a day and ahalf, like a dinner the night
(15:04):
before and overnight, and then afull day, like that's my ideal.
That's a big deal.
I mean the time, the cost, youknow, taking people away from
family and work, that's a hugedeal.
Typically, when organizationsare at a point where they really
need that, it's hard to reallystick, stick to it and to follow
through and it's easier to say,oh well, that's a lot of work,
(15:26):
I'm going to, we're just goingto, you know.
You know, push it down the road.
So the two things I found thatare most critical is finding who
on the board has has like theleadership perspective, has like
, like, has the voice or therespect of the rest of the board
and it may not be the chair,but who has that perspective
(15:51):
that has a respect, and I wouldwork with them on helping them
understand what you see.
And how do you get them on boardwith how do we start to change
the narrative, how do we startto change the culture?
That'd be one piece.
The other piece is that youdon't have to do retreat to
start, and that's kind of whatthe book gets to.
Is, if you find, let's say, youdon't have just one like
opinion leader in the group,let's say you have three people
(16:12):
that are, you know, better thanambivalent, they're open to
suggestion.
That the book is designed tohelp them realize that, oh, we
can be different, things aredifferent, and it helps them
kind of draw out like, how am Ipersonally going to help this
difference, this change, happen?
(16:33):
And so it's a way to make babysteps from, you know, the ED or
a board chair realizing thatthings need to change to.
Let's start to start to makesteps, and it may not be so big
of a step that it is a bordertreat, but it's something that
gets them in the right direction, which is the most critical
thing.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
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Question that we get asked mostoften.
Anytime we host a webinar onboards.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Anytime we host a webinar on fundraising, I feel
like it pops up in the chat andI know there's different schools
of thought, so I'm very curiousto hear your answer.
But the one that we get mostoften is how do I turn my board
into fundraisers or how do I getmy board to embrace being
fundraisers in that piece One?
Is that even the actualquestion that we should be
(18:11):
asking?
Yeah, let's start there.
But also I'm curious your inputon.
You know, what does it looklike for boards to be involved
in that fundraising process?
I know some boards that have arequirement you have to be
giving it X percent or X amountto even keep your seat on the
board or get it on the board inthe first place.
(18:32):
I'd love to hear your thoughtson that side of it as well and
the fundraising aspect of aboard.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Okay, two questions I got to write down because I'm
going to forget.
I'm going to probably answerone and then get long-winded,
then forget the second.
So the first one is about firstone is about fundraising board
and how do we turn the boardinto fundraisers?
And then get them on board.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
And the second one is what is it?
What is your take on board?
Giving requirements is that?
Something that we should be,yeah, thinking through, getting
rid of, etc.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah awesome question , so thank you for letting me
write that down so I wouldn'tforget.
I can I can stay focused.
So on the first one, I thinkit's the wrong question okay
because when we're talking aboutwe want to have a fundraising
board, we're talking about whatwe want.
I think a lot of times when webuild boards that we forget that
(19:27):
they're doing this partiallybecause of what they want, and
so how can we help them findtheir joy, their purpose, their
fulfillment in the board service?
I don't feel like we giveenough time for board members to
spend time together.
Okay, it's almost like we giveenough time for board members to
spend time together.
It's almost like we're fillingall the silence, like we have to
create noise and to make themfeel like they're doing
(19:50):
something.
In some instances it's okay forthere to be no agenda, but for
them to be.
I'm not saying board meetingshave no agenda, but for them to
get together early or to havedinner or to build community.
For them to get together earlyor to have dinner or to build
community, because if they buildcommunity they're going to be
able to ask hard questions, givehard answers, talk in a way
(20:11):
that they have a shared purpose.
Because they know each other,respect each other, they have
that community.
And so to the question offundraising board.
It's the wrong question becausewe're focused on what we want,
not what they want.
And what they want is they wantto spend time on something
that's meaningful.
They want to make a difference.
The book addresses this.
(20:33):
I'd say focus more on what istheir purpose, what is their?
Why do they want to be on theboard?
Like what?
Why are they called to servethis organization?
In what way?
And there's some exercises I dowhen I do my board trainings
where it helps them.
It does in a way where theydon't feel like it's an
emotionally safe space wherethey can kind of reflect and
(20:54):
then identify their true like,the core of like, why and if
they can identify that it's huge.
Because then they're afundraising board.
Because they're not talkingabout you know, we need money.
They're not going and shakingdown their friends.
They're sharing with everyonewhy they're a member of a board,
why it's important to them.
They're telling the story,they're telling the mission
(21:15):
through their eyes.
I hate when boards ororganizations try to like give
board members bullet points oran elevator pitch because, like
who's in the elevator lookingfor the business card or the
index card of, like all thethings I'm supposed to say?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
you okay.
So I hate that phrase.
It's like every time people sayit it's like nails on a
chalkboard to me, because I have.
I actively avoid trying to talkto people in elevators.
I live in an apartment building, I spend a lot of time going up
and down in an elevator and Iactively try to avoid talking to
people in them.
So I've never in my life walkedonto an elevator and been like
(21:51):
I bet I could tell them about mycompany right now.
Yeah, no, it's so dumb whowants that?
Speaker 3 (21:57):
nobody wants that yes , it's like uh, what's the meme
from uh ron burgundy.
Yeah, that, oh that escalatedquickly.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yes, yes yeah, I just .
It's one of those phrases thatjust drives me crazy, because
nobody actually walks into anelevator and starts talking
about what they do for a livingyeah, I mean yeah, unless you're
like that person and you don'twant to person and you don't
want to be that person.
You don't want to be that guy.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, so I'll give you an example.
I did a board retreat for anorganization and one of the
people at this retreat used theexample of a dictionary and they
described why the dictionaryrepresented their passion for
the organization and theymentioned a very specific
edition of printing of thedictionary because it had swear
(22:44):
words and it tied into this, alltied into the mission
organization, about findingtruth and you know,
understanding and knowledge, andlike that visual of a
dictionary and being able totell a story is huge, like that
has more weight and personalitythan than any elevator or bullet
(23:06):
point list, elevator pitch orbullet point list.
Like for them to be able to sayyou know, let me tell you about
this organization and reallythe reason I'm involved is
because I'll tell you the storyabout the dictionary and like,
like it's a total game changer.
So I think if, if boards andorganizations could focus less
on fundraising and more offinding that true personal
connection, then they're goingto find a much better impact
(23:31):
towards the goal of fundraising.
Yeah, so that's the firstquestion.
All right, second question Okay,second question About personal
goals or fundraisingexpectations or whatever.
Also, in the book I've brokeninto three different things.
The first one is I say that inthe book we define that every
board member needs to have apersonal board engagement plan.
So how are they going to beinvolved in the business of the
(23:54):
board?
So involvement is one.
How are they going to invest inthe mission?
So invest is the second.
And the third is how are theygoing to influence others to
benefit the mission?
So involve, invest andinfluence.
And basically every board memberhas a one-page sheet and they
work out through the firstquarter bullet points.
How am I going to do thesethree different things?
(24:14):
So it'll be one bullet point,two, three.
I'd say no more than threebullet points for each of these
three categories.
And under the invest, I wouldsay a bare minimum is to ask for
the board members to give agift that is personally
meaningful I would say thatwould for me, that is my that's
(24:36):
my minimum level of likeexpectations on giving is a gift
that's personally meaningful.
If you want to elevate that andI think that giving is a gift
that's personally meaningful Ifyou want to elevate that and I
think that this is a gooddifferentiator is that if
someone is going to spend theirtime to serve on a board, it's
something that they care aboutand you want to limit the board
members to those that reallytruly care and not someone's
(24:57):
just doing it out of, like youknow, obligation or reciprocity.
We all have that.
I served on your board, now youneed to serve on mine, sort of
thing.
So the one that would elevateit, I would say is is this
organization among your topthree philanthropies?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
So, like in most people, they have to give to
their faith tradition.
They give to some sort ofeducational thing, and if you're
on the board of an organizationlike this should be in the top
three and the thing about thatmetric.
Yeah, if you don't have it,like if you have the top three
and this is number five, likemaybe it's not the right time
(25:37):
yet yeah so those are.
Those are my two measures onboard expectations on giving.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I love it.
Okay, so a couple of differenttimes throughout our
conversation today, you havesaid phrases like when I go work
with boards or when I do aboard workshop.
If that phrase has sparkedsomeone's interest and they're
like man, we could really usethat, or I would love to learn
more about what that looks like.
How do we find you, how do weconnect with you and learn more
about your work at Giving Three?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I'd say probably the easiest thing to do would be go
find the book.
The book has my website on itand I'm going to ask some basic
questions have you done X, y andZ?
And a lot of stuff is alreadyin the book.
So I'll ask if they've alreadydone that.
So I don't want to waste theirtime to call me about a board
retreat.
But if they are serious, I'dsay go to my website,
(26:28):
giving3.com.
Buy the book.
I mean, it's like what $10?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You can buy them in bulk, and where do we find the
book?
Speaker 3 (26:35):
On Amazon, amazoncom, and just type in my name,
benjamin Moeller.
I use my full legal namebecause my mom, you know, wanted
my name on the.
You know, sure it's my givenname, yes, and the title is
Nonprofit Board Member FieldGuide and Journal.
So the first half is justgeneral overview and the second
half not really second half butlike the last 15 pages is just
(26:58):
journal prompts.
It's the size of a NICS card.
It is small, it's like four bysix inches.
So it's something that a boardmember can tuck in their pocket,
take on a plane, cram the nightbefore a board meeting and show
they know their stuff.
It's a small, easy to digestsort of thing.
So I'd say those are two thingsLook for the book, find me
(27:18):
online and just send me notes.
I'm one of those guys you know.
Follow me on linkedin, send mea dm, send me an email, like I
actually respond.
I don't have bots in a legionof you know like handlers, so
there's no gatekeeping here Ican personally attest he does
respond to both linkedin andemail.
He doesn't like it when you haveconversations on two platforms
(27:39):
at the same time I think, Ithink when we first met, I think
conversations in three or fourplatforms.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, we had LinkedIn , email and text all going.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah.
At various, but not AM chat,not AOL chat and not Yahoo
Messenger.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, ICQ, we could bring that back for this express
purpose.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, you weren't sending me notes on myspace or
anything no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I don't even know if I know how to log into my
myspace anymore I don't know, orzenga, do you remember zenga?
Oh, my word oh my, I don't evenknow what that one is oh, it
was like a myspace wannabe ohgot it unless you're the founder
of zenga.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Listen to this.
I'm sorry, it's not really howI feel I listen, I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I don't take bets like this often.
I'm gonna go ahead and say thefounder of zenga is not
listening to non-profits.
Anything is possible but Iwould go ahead and say that
you're probably safe on that oh,it's funny because it's true.
All right.
So as we close out our time,ben, the question that I've been
asking everyone in this season.
(28:47):
Obviously, nonprofit work isnever easy, but this year a lot
of orgs have really taken somehits.
So if you could give one pieceof advice or encouragement or
wisdom to nonprofit leaders inthis season, what would that be?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
And this is a lesson I think applies not just
nonprofit work but life ingeneral, and I'm seeing it more
and more the older I get is thatthe small things, when done
consistently over time, willmake the biggest impact.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I love that Doesn't have to be the massive like like
shake up the world piece.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, and that was really the origin story for the
book is that I was, I had beenmaking small notes ever, you
know all the way back 20, what?
25 years ago, and it was thosenotes and my experiences over
time, because I kept, I wouldn'tsay journal, but I have, like
this repository of board relatedstuff and like, over and over
time, the theme of the bookstarted to emerge and then I had
(29:45):
to cut it way down to what itis now, but it was this small.
If I had just tried to startfrom scratch, try to make one
big, huge thing, then I wouldnever, it would have taken
forever and I would have beenoverwhelmed.
And I've seen that not just inthis exercise but in all things
in my life, that the smallthings, when done, well, done,
consistently over time, had thebiggest impact.
(30:06):
So, working with donors,building campaigns, invest in
staff, you know you'll see it,not maybe not this season, but
over subsequent seasons.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Okay, I love it.
Well, ben, thank you so much.
I really appreciated theconversation.
I think some helpful insightsfor nonprofits of all sizes.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Again, my guest has been Ben Moeller of Giving3 and
the author of Nonprofit BoardMember Field Guide and Journal,
which, as he said, you can findon Amazon.
Highly recommend checking thatout.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
Marketing Support Network is proud to serve the
nonprofit community by offeringfull-service contact center
fulfillment, digital marketingand fundraising services.
Your vision is our mission andwe can't wait to partner with
you.
Visitmarketingsupportnetworkcom for
more information.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear.
Joining me today is Ben Muller,who's the chief executive and
chief consultant at Giving3.
Excited to dig in here today,Ben, because we're going to be
talking about boards and this isone of the most requested
topics that we get at NonprofitHub, because it is oh, it can be
such a challenge, especiallyfor smaller or startup
(00:42):
nonprofits, to get this rightfrom the jump, but it makes all
the difference.
So I cannot wait to hear yourwisdom on the subject.
We're going to be actuallytalking about Ben's new book,
Nonprofit Board Member FieldGuide and Journal.
I have my copy right here.
Very excited to dig into all ofthat, Ben.
Welcome in.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Thank you, it's good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
So tell us a little bit about yourself and your
background in your nonprofitjourney that got you to where
you are today and to the pointof realizing that this book was
such a need in the space.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Well, I think, having listened to your podcast, I
think I'm probably one of theoutliers in that my first
full-time job was in nonprofits.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay, that is definitely different.
I feel like everyone else comeson and says I didn't really
mean to fall into fundraising, Ididn't really mean to fall into
non-profit work.
Uh, they just ended up there.
So you were yeah on it yeah andwhat, but?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
but the path to it was was unintentional.
So I thought I wanted to be anengineer.
Actually, as a kid I wanted tobe a fighter, a jet fighter
pilot, and then I realized thatI didn't want to spend all my
time in front of a computer.
I like to be around people andI just.
It was one of those, you knowthis, moments where I met
(01:56):
someone that worked in thesector and they said, hey, have
you ever considered this as afield?
And I said no, and so Iexplored it and, like, right
when I graduated from college Istarted working in the sector.
So my first job was at theUniversity of Texas at Austin,
and I was really fortunate thatin that first role I was working
(02:18):
with the board for thefoundation.
And so you know, from thatmoment forward, even some when I
was in college, in high school,I was working with boards.
But that was like the firstlike full-time hands-on with a
board.
And you know, there's a lot ofthings that I observed and some
(02:38):
things like I just like assumedit was the way things were.
And then, as I grew in theprofession, I realized some
things were the way they were.
And then, as I grew in theprofession, I realized some
things were the way they werebecause no one else had really
challenged it or looked atpotentials for change and so
like.
Over the years, as I added oneducation and practical
experience and was able to testwith the boards that I worked
(02:59):
with, I saw where we could startto move the lines and how we
could start to equip boards, sothat that's kind of the the
cliff notes of.
I don't know, is that even aterm nowadays, cliff notes, or
is it like I?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
assume so how else, how else do people, I think, the
?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
kids nowadays, the kids nowadays.
I think it's like tldr oh, toolong read yeah, I think that's,
that's the yeah the summationthe modern yes got it.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
I didn't realize that .
I didn't realize those twothings were synonyms, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
I think that's the cleavage.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, the summation the modern, yes, Got it.
I didn't realize that.
I didn't realize those twothings were synonyms.
Yeah, we're going to make it so.
Yeah, I'm learning already.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
It is now, yes, so that was kind of the book.
Where we are today is kind offrom those early seeds.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Okay, that's great.
So one of the things that Ibecause I do have my copy one of
the things that I think isreally interesting and I'd like
to kind of start here today is Ithink people take on, okay, I'm
going to be on the board, right, and we don't always define
even what type of board you'reon, right.
(04:01):
Each organization is a littlebit different in that regard.
So I want to kind of level setand talk about the types of
boards and then specificallyfocus on that governing type
today, because I think that'swhat the majority of our
audience has.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But I'd love to hear your take two on how we make
sure that the board understandsthose roles and what that means.
So break down the three typesfor me first, and then let's
focus in on that oh, I didn'tknow.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
There's gonna be a test on this podcast I mean you
wrote the book, ben.
Yes, so there I'm gonna pull mycopy because I don't want to
get it wrong, because you put meon the spot here.
Oh, and I'm, if you'refollowing along in the book, is
this?
I feel like, uh, as a kid wehad, like the books on tape
right and, like they would say,the page number in your book.
(04:51):
It's page number, whatever.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So in the book.
If you're following along, youneed help.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Page number nine yeah , there are there.
There's advisory, a communityand governing.
Yeah, oh, look at that.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Yeah, um so, I read your book.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
I'm a podcast host well, I haven't.
I haven't ever since, like ifwe finished the final edits,
I've kind of not thought aboutit, but now I guess I gotta
think about it again.
Welcome back, yes, welcome backto the book.
So, yeah, the um, the mostboards are going to be governing
boards.
So those are boards where youare called on to.
Basically you are protectingthe greater good, you are
(05:27):
serving the interests of thecommunity and so your fiduciary,
your governing board, you'relooking at how you can protect
the interests of the community.
So that's the typical, like thelegal board.
Then you have advisory boardsand a lot of folks will be on
advisory boards and say they'reon a board and think they're on
a governing board.
But an advisory board is reallyfolks that have knowledge, have
(05:48):
expertise and they bring thatto the organization and they
help advise, but they're notactually voting on, like they're
not assessing the performanceof the CEO, they're not looking
at the financials.
They may be looking at thefinancials but not really, like
you know, going through theaudit process and reviewing the
audit notes, like all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And if there's something wrong in the
financials, they have noliability.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yes, and then the community board.
It's like you know, I was onthe community board once and it
was for a hospital and it wasreally just a way for the
organization to engage thecommunity, to make sure that
they were connected to theaudience that they served, and
so it's a way for folks to, youknow, have a voice, have a role,
bring some value to theorganization, but not have, you
(06:34):
know, really a deeper commitmentof having to attend meetings.
And generally my experience isit's kind of a, it's a scale of,
like community boards is alittle less structured, maybe a
little bit less organized, is alittle less structured, maybe a
little bit less organized, alittle less formal, and then
advisory boards, a little bitmore of all those things, and
then the governing board is fullon, like all those things.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Okay, so let's presume, for the duration of
this conversation then, thatwe're talking about governing
boards, because that isultimately like, legally, you
have to have one right, yes,there is somebody that is in
charge.
What I see so often isorganizations who especially
maybe in their startup mode, theboard is the founder's mom and
(07:18):
their college roommate and theircousin's husband and you know a
bunch of cheerleaders, which isis helpful, but I would think
and you can certainly dispute meif I'm wrong I would think
there has to be a better way tostart yeah right, the problem
with that to the let's talkstart.
Let's start with those startupfolks yeah how do we do it right
(07:39):
from the jump?
Speaker 3 (07:41):
so I use an analogy in my trainings and the book if
you haven't read it has a subtlegardening theme because I've
found so many analogies that arejust ripe for the picking pun
intended one is in the board.
If you plant like early summer,you plant a lot of zucchini.
Like in the spring, as youplant a lot of zucchini by the
(08:01):
middle of summer, you're goingto be really upset that all you
have is like zucchini, likezucchini out the year.
After your ears yeah and thesame is true if you're
recruiting like startup and yourecruit a bunch of cheerleaders
and your friends, like folksthat are, like you know, on your
side, and you get to a pointwhere you're ready to grow and
(08:22):
change and you, like you'relimited to you can you're
limited to you can make zucchinibread, you can make zucchini
stir fry like there's only somany ways you can do zucchini
and after a while you get tiredof the same thing, and so I
always encourage, like you'relooking for folks that you know
represent the community,represent the mission, and so it
(08:43):
may be hard to find folks.
You may have to start withfolks that know you and know
your passion, but you reallyquickly need to pivot and get
folks that represent the mission, represent the community,
because that's where you'regoing to start to be able to
hold yourself accountable andreally impact the mission in a
way that is, I think, most folksreally want to impact.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
And when it comes to skill set, I've heard people say
you know, you want to findsomebody with a financial
background, you want to findsomeone with a legal background,
you want to find somebody who'sreally well connected to maybe
the philanthropic community inyour area or has maybe some more
resources.
Is there kind of a checklistthat we should be looking for?
Or is passion for theorganization enough in that
(09:31):
startup phase?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
So it follows two different paths.
One is it depends on theorganization and what it does,
and another path is the stage atwhich the organization is, and
so if you're grassroots,starting up, you don't need a
lot of deep expertise.
Folks that are going to getfrustrated that you're doing the
(09:55):
basics.
Also, if you are a bigorganization and you've been
around for a while, you're goingto want folks that represent a
broad spectrum, like you're notgoing to want.
You know, I just saw someoneactually commented on the book
like a checklist of things.
You want a banker, an attorneyand a left-handed venture
capitalist.
(10:19):
So my general advice is you'regoing to want to build a board
matrix and flesh out what arethe roles that are critical for
us to have in terms of providingguidance and insight on where
we need to be and how we'redoing.
But I also want to cautionfolks.
A lot of folks will say, well,we're a working board and the
(10:39):
challenge with a working boardis it blurs the lines between
governance and volunteer, and weactually I just had this
conversation.
I was doing a workshop, aday-long workshop in Canada and
actually in Alberta, calgary,alberta so people, that actually
know our friends up north, yes,and they.
(11:03):
We were talking about boards andworking boards and it was a
really great discussion becauseI think a lot of organizations
as a shortcut because they don'thave time to manage a lot of
different boards is that theyjust smush them into one.
But the challenge you have in aboard meeting is that it is so
easy to focus on the day-to-dayif you are a volunteer board and
(11:26):
not really focus on holdingyourself accountable, looking at
a long-term vision, those sortof things, having a generative
perspective about what is ourpurpose and sense-making of how
do we address it.
And so having that line of avolunteer board versus a
(11:46):
governing board is critical, notto say you can't have a working
board.
But I would always like createa firewall and say, okay, this
is a board meeting, we're goingto be, it's a board meeting and
the working board you know,working on whatever the
communication plan that's goingto be next week or whatever,
like you, separate the two sothat you can that you can table
it for volunteer work.
(12:09):
So that's a challenge I thinkthat a lot of organizations face
in terms of when they'rerecruiting board members.
I think part of it comes downto.
There's no finishing school forboard service.
Yeah, like, I think, people inthe corporate world, people that
(12:30):
are in the for-profit, theprivate space, they, when
they're on boards, theyunderstand what they're doing
because it's part of their DNAof business.
The role of a nonprofit boardis very different, and so
sometimes there's thiscommunication gap.
When those folks join the board, what is their role?
And they'll start to come at itwith a for-profit perspective
(12:55):
where they understand that theirrole is different.
And that's part of thechallenge, I see, is that when
we bring them in, we're nothelping prepare them for how
it's different and help them beready to address those
differences, and that's reallykind of what the book gets to.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah.
So I want to shift gears alittle bit away from maybe those
initial startup.
How do we start?
Well, because I think a largemajority of us find ourselves
like we've been in the game awhile, organization's been
around for a while, we mighthave crossed those lines between
governance and working board.
Things are a little, maybe alittle too knotted up between
(13:35):
the two, or we have New boardmembers who don't necessarily
always understand their role onthe board.
So if somebody was saying youknow what?
Look, I understand that this isa challenge for our
organization.
We're kind of in a mess of itat the moment.
What's the first step to getout of the mess?
Like, how do we shift gears?
Where do we even start to tryand fix a problem like that?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
That's a great question.
So I get this a lot withorganizations that they call me
up and they say, hey, you know,they recognize our board's a
mess or we need to change thedynamic.
But I think the biggest issuethat they face is that it's
easier to do nothing than it isto do something.
And so and the organizationsthat actually start to make
(14:24):
progress when they've had thatrealization that they need to do
something.
It's important to fall throughand to do something, and I would
even say it doesn't matter whatyou do, but do something.
So I'm personally, I'm a bigfan of border treats.
Okay, I think the border treatshelp the board really
(14:44):
understand that the game ischanging, that things are
getting real and it's like we'regetting serious.
Because for a board to have tocarve out and make time to not
be distracted and to be togetherfor a half day hopefully a full
day, even better, a day and ahalf, like a dinner the night
(15:04):
before and overnight, and then afull day, like that's my ideal.
That's a big deal.
I mean the time, the cost, youknow, taking people away from
family and work, that's a hugedeal.
Typically, when organizationsare at a point where they really
need that, it's hard to reallystick, stick to it and to follow
through and it's easier to say,oh well, that's a lot of work,
(15:26):
I'm going to, we're just goingto, you know.
You know, push it down the road.
So the two things I found thatare most critical is finding who
on the board has has like theleadership perspective, has like
, like, has the voice or therespect of the rest of the board
and it may not be the chair,but who has that perspective
(15:51):
that has a respect, and I wouldwork with them on helping them
understand what you see.
And how do you get them on boardwith how do we start to change
the narrative, how do we startto change the culture?
That'd be one piece.
The other piece is that youdon't have to do retreat to
start, and that's kind of whatthe book gets to.
Is, if you find, let's say, youdon't have just one like
opinion leader in the group,let's say you have three people
(16:12):
that are, you know, better thanambivalent, they're open to
suggestion.
That the book is designed tohelp them realize that, oh, we
can be different, things aredifferent, and it helps them
kind of draw out like, how am Ipersonally going to help this
difference, this change, happen?
(16:33):
And so it's a way to make babysteps from, you know, the ED or
a board chair realizing thatthings need to change to.
Let's start to start to makesteps, and it may not be so big
of a step that it is a bordertreat, but it's something that
gets them in the right direction, which is the most critical
thing.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
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(17:19):
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Question that we get asked mostoften.
Anytime we host a webinar onboards.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Anytime we host a webinar on fundraising, I feel
like it pops up in the chat andI know there's different schools
of thought, so I'm very curiousto hear your answer.
But the one that we get mostoften is how do I turn my board
into fundraisers or how do I getmy board to embrace being
fundraisers in that piece One?
Is that even the actualquestion that we should be
(18:11):
asking?
Yeah, let's start there.
But also I'm curious your inputon.
You know, what does it looklike for boards to be involved
in that fundraising process?
I know some boards that have arequirement you have to be
giving it X percent or X amountto even keep your seat on the
board or get it on the board inthe first place.
(18:32):
I'd love to hear your thoughtson that side of it as well and
the fundraising aspect of aboard.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
Okay, two questions I got to write down because I'm
going to forget.
I'm going to probably answerone and then get long-winded,
then forget the second.
So the first one is about firstone is about fundraising board
and how do we turn the boardinto fundraisers?
And then get them on board.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
And the second one is what is it?
What is your take on board?
Giving requirements is that?
Something that we should be,yeah, thinking through, getting
rid of, etc.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah awesome question , so thank you for letting me
write that down so I wouldn'tforget.
I can I can stay focused.
So on the first one, I thinkit's the wrong question okay
because when we're talking aboutwe want to have a fundraising
board, we're talking about whatwe want.
I think a lot of times when webuild boards that we forget that
(19:27):
they're doing this partiallybecause of what they want, and
so how can we help them findtheir joy, their purpose, their
fulfillment in the board service?
I don't feel like we giveenough time for board members to
spend time together.
Okay, it's almost like we giveenough time for board members to
spend time together.
It's almost like we're fillingall the silence, like we have to
create noise and to make themfeel like they're doing
(19:50):
something.
In some instances it's okay forthere to be no agenda, but for
them to be.
I'm not saying board meetingshave no agenda, but for them to
get together early or to havedinner or to build community.
For them to get together earlyor to have dinner or to build
community, because if they buildcommunity they're going to be
able to ask hard questions, givehard answers, talk in a way
(20:11):
that they have a shared purpose.
Because they know each other,respect each other, they have
that community.
And so to the question offundraising board.
It's the wrong question becausewe're focused on what we want,
not what they want.
And what they want is they wantto spend time on something
that's meaningful.
They want to make a difference.
The book addresses this.
(20:33):
I'd say focus more on what istheir purpose, what is their?
Why do they want to be on theboard?
Like what?
Why are they called to servethis organization?
In what way?
And there's some exercises I dowhen I do my board trainings
where it helps them.
It does in a way where theydon't feel like it's an
emotionally safe space wherethey can kind of reflect and
(20:54):
then identify their true like,the core of like, why and if
they can identify that it's huge.
Because then they're afundraising board.
Because they're not talkingabout you know, we need money.
They're not going and shakingdown their friends.
They're sharing with everyonewhy they're a member of a board,
why it's important to them.
They're telling the story,they're telling the mission
(21:15):
through their eyes.
I hate when boards ororganizations try to like give
board members bullet points oran elevator pitch because, like
who's in the elevator lookingfor the business card or the
index card of, like all thethings I'm supposed to say?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
you okay.
So I hate that phrase.
It's like every time people sayit it's like nails on a
chalkboard to me, because I have.
I actively avoid trying to talkto people in elevators.
I live in an apartment building, I spend a lot of time going up
and down in an elevator and Iactively try to avoid talking to
people in them.
So I've never in my life walkedonto an elevator and been like
(21:51):
I bet I could tell them about mycompany right now.
Yeah, no, it's so dumb whowants that?
Speaker 3 (21:57):
nobody wants that yes , it's like uh, what's the meme
from uh ron burgundy.
Yeah, that, oh that escalatedquickly.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Yes, yes yeah, I just .
It's one of those phrases thatjust drives me crazy, because
nobody actually walks into anelevator and starts talking
about what they do for a livingyeah, I mean yeah, unless you're
like that person and you don'twant to person and you don't
want to be that person.
You don't want to be that guy.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, so I'll give you an example.
I did a board retreat for anorganization and one of the
people at this retreat used theexample of a dictionary and they
described why the dictionaryrepresented their passion for
the organization and theymentioned a very specific
edition of printing of thedictionary because it had swear
(22:44):
words and it tied into this, alltied into the mission
organization, about findingtruth and you know,
understanding and knowledge, andlike that visual of a
dictionary and being able totell a story is huge, like that
has more weight and personalitythan than any elevator or bullet
(23:06):
point list, elevator pitch orbullet point list.
Like for them to be able to sayyou know, let me tell you about
this organization and reallythe reason I'm involved is
because I'll tell you the storyabout the dictionary and like,
like it's a total game changer.
So I think if, if boards andorganizations could focus less
on fundraising and more offinding that true personal
connection, then they're goingto find a much better impact
(23:31):
towards the goal of fundraising.
Yeah, so that's the firstquestion.
All right, second question Okay,second question About personal
goals or fundraisingexpectations or whatever.
Also, in the book I've brokeninto three different things.
The first one is I say that inthe book we define that every
board member needs to have apersonal board engagement plan.
So how are they going to beinvolved in the business of the
(23:54):
board?
So involvement is one.
How are they going to invest inthe mission?
So invest is the second.
And the third is how are theygoing to influence others to
benefit the mission?
So involve, invest andinfluence.
And basically every board memberhas a one-page sheet and they
work out through the firstquarter bullet points.
How am I going to do thesethree different things?
(24:14):
So it'll be one bullet point,two, three.
I'd say no more than threebullet points for each of these
three categories.
And under the invest, I wouldsay a bare minimum is to ask for
the board members to give agift that is personally
meaningful I would say thatwould for me, that is my that's
(24:36):
my minimum level of likeexpectations on giving is a gift
that's personally meaningful.
If you want to elevate that andI think that giving is a gift
that's personally meaningful Ifyou want to elevate that and I
think that this is a gooddifferentiator is that if
someone is going to spend theirtime to serve on a board, it's
something that they care aboutand you want to limit the board
members to those that reallytruly care and not someone's
(24:57):
just doing it out of, like youknow, obligation or reciprocity.
We all have that.
I served on your board, now youneed to serve on mine, sort of
thing.
So the one that would elevateit, I would say is is this
organization among your topthree philanthropies?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
So, like in most people, they have to give to
their faith tradition.
They give to some sort ofeducational thing, and if you're
on the board of an organizationlike this should be in the top
three and the thing about thatmetric.
Yeah, if you don't have it,like if you have the top three
and this is number five, likemaybe it's not the right time
(25:37):
yet yeah so those are.
Those are my two measures onboard expectations on giving.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I love it.
Okay, so a couple of differenttimes throughout our
conversation today, you havesaid phrases like when I go work
with boards or when I do aboard workshop.
If that phrase has sparkedsomeone's interest and they're
like man, we could really usethat, or I would love to learn
more about what that looks like.
How do we find you, how do weconnect with you and learn more
about your work at Giving Three?
Speaker 3 (26:06):
I'd say probably the easiest thing to do would be go
find the book.
The book has my website on itand I'm going to ask some basic
questions have you done X, y andZ?
And a lot of stuff is alreadyin the book.
So I'll ask if they've alreadydone that.
So I don't want to waste theirtime to call me about a board
retreat.
But if they are serious, I'dsay go to my website,
(26:28):
giving3.com.
Buy the book.
I mean, it's like what $10?
Speaker 2 (26:32):
You can buy them in bulk, and where do we find the
book?
Speaker 3 (26:35):
On Amazon, amazoncom, and just type in my name,
benjamin Moeller.
I use my full legal namebecause my mom, you know, wanted
my name on the.
You know, sure it's my givenname, yes, and the title is
Nonprofit Board Member FieldGuide and Journal.
So the first half is justgeneral overview and the second
half not really second half butlike the last 15 pages is just
(26:58):
journal prompts.
It's the size of a NICS card.
It is small, it's like four bysix inches.
So it's something that a boardmember can tuck in their pocket,
take on a plane, cram the nightbefore a board meeting and show
they know their stuff.
It's a small, easy to digestsort of thing.
So I'd say those are two thingsLook for the book, find me
(27:18):
online and just send me notes.
I'm one of those guys you know.
Follow me on linkedin, send mea dm, send me an email, like I
actually respond.
I don't have bots in a legionof you know like handlers, so
there's no gatekeeping here Ican personally attest he does
respond to both linkedin andemail.
He doesn't like it when you haveconversations on two platforms
(27:39):
at the same time I think, Ithink when we first met, I think
conversations in three or fourplatforms.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, we had LinkedIn , email and text all going.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah.
At various, but not AM chat,not AOL chat and not Yahoo
Messenger.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Yeah, ICQ, we could bring that back for this express
purpose.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Yeah, you weren't sending me notes on myspace or
anything no, I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I don't even know if I know how to log into my
myspace anymore I don't know, orzenga, do you remember zenga?
Oh, my word oh my, I don't evenknow what that one is oh, it
was like a myspace wannabe ohgot it unless you're the founder
of zenga.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Listen to this.
I'm sorry, it's not really howI feel I listen, I don't.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I don't take bets like this often.
I'm gonna go ahead and say thefounder of zenga is not
listening to non-profits.
Anything is possible but Iwould go ahead and say that
you're probably safe on that oh,it's funny because it's true.
All right.
So as we close out our time,ben, the question that I've been
asking everyone in this season.
(28:47):
Obviously, nonprofit work isnever easy, but this year a lot
of orgs have really taken somehits.
So if you could give one pieceof advice or encouragement or
wisdom to nonprofit leaders inthis season, what would that be?
Speaker 3 (29:03):
And this is a lesson I think applies not just
nonprofit work but life ingeneral, and I'm seeing it more
and more the older I get is thatthe small things, when done
consistently over time, willmake the biggest impact.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I love that Doesn't have to be the massive like like
shake up the world piece.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, and that was really the origin story for the
book is that I was, I had beenmaking small notes ever, you
know all the way back 20, what?
25 years ago, and it was thosenotes and my experiences over
time, because I kept, I wouldn'tsay journal, but I have, like
this repository of board relatedstuff and like, over and over
time, the theme of the bookstarted to emerge and then I had
(29:45):
to cut it way down to what itis now, but it was this small.
If I had just tried to startfrom scratch, try to make one
big, huge thing, then I wouldnever, it would have taken
forever and I would have beenoverwhelmed.
And I've seen that not just inthis exercise but in all things
in my life, that the smallthings, when done, well, done,
consistently over time, had thebiggest impact.
(30:06):
So, working with donors,building campaigns, invest in
staff, you know you'll see it,not maybe not this season, but
over subsequent seasons.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Okay, I love it.
Well, ben, thank you so much.
I really appreciated theconversation.
I think some helpful insightsfor nonprofits of all sizes.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Thank you, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Again, my guest has been Ben Moeller of Giving3 and
the author of Nonprofit BoardMember Field Guide and Journal,
which, as he said, you can findon Amazon.
Highly recommend checking thatout.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
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