May 23, 2025 • 28 mins
In 2025’s shifting nonprofit funding landscape, many organizations face steep federal grant cuts, prompting a pivot toward overlooked private foundations. In a timely discussion, Rachel Fidler Cannella of Instrumentl joins Megan Speer to share insights on navigating this challenge, highlighting examples like Second Harvest Food Bank. She debunks the myth of grants as “easy money,” noting most professionals spend 40+ hours per application with no guarantee of success. The conversation emphasizes how AI and cross-team collaboration are transforming the grant process, and Rachel offers practical strategies for strengthening grant efforts—urging leaders to focus on what’s working, set clear priorities, and adopt systems that foster visibility and sustainability.
Rachel Fidler Cannella is a skilled educator & nonprofit professional with over a decade in the Arts & Culture sector. She now leads educational programming as the Events & Community Manager at Instrumentl, the all-in-one grants platform for tracking, management, and prospecting.
Prior to Instrumentl, Rachel served as Senior Manager of School & Teacher Programs at the Natural History Museums of Los Angeles County, leading all educational programming for 150,000+ annual school visitors at two county museum sites. She has also directed creative arts programming at Holocaust Museum LA and designed environmental education courses at the Portland Children’s Museum, in partnership with the Oregon Zoo.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Drowning in spreadsheets and manual
processes.
Bonterra Apricot is the smarter, faster way for nonprofits to
manage programs, track outcomesand actually show your impact.
Find out how at BonterraTechcomslash Nonprofit Hub.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:20):
I'm your host, megan Spear, andalong with me today from
Instrumental is Rachel FidlerCannella, who's the events and
community manager.
There at Instrumental, we aredigging into a topic that I feel
like is causing stress for somany in our nonprofit sector
right now, looking at grants andall of the things that that
(00:41):
entails.
It's going to be a goodconversation, hopefully with
some really great takeaways foreveryone.
So, rachel, welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you so much.
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of
your background in the nonprofitspace that brought you here
today.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Sure, yeah.
So I've been in the nonprofitworld for a little over a decade
.
I came out of that right out ofcollege, working mostly in
museums, and informal educationis really my passion.
I started out working atchildren's museums both in San
Diego and in Portland and thenmoved into developing
(01:15):
educational content for ourlocal Holocaust Museum here in
Los Angeles.
I had done my undergrad onHolocaust memorial spaces and
essentially did a case study onstaff who work in those spaces
and their motivations forchoosing that line of work how
they compartmentalize traumaticmaterial really interesting
stuff and then eventually endedup working at that museum
(01:35):
producing programming there.
That was a really wonderfulexperience and after my time
there I moved over towards theNatural History Museum of Los
Angeles County.
I oversaw the school andteacher programs team there
where we served about 200,000kiddos or so annually between
NHM and the La Brea Tar Pits,which some folks might be
(01:55):
familiar with in the center ofLA.
So I came from the educationalexperience, wrote grants as a
part of my kind of educationalprogramming piece at both of
those museum locations and sawthis gig instrumental and
thought I'd try my hand atserving nonprofits in a
different capacity in this way.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I love it.
So I think it's fair to saythat anyone who works in
nonprofit right now I mean notthat nonprofit work is ever easy
, right, frontlines, like yousaid, dealing with maybe some
really traumatic information,some really hard situations it's
never easy.
We have certainly taken a hitover the last few months with
(02:35):
both like the attitudes towardsnonprofit as well as around
grant funding especially.
So let's talk.
Let's start with, I guess,maybe the conversation.
If somebody is maybe anorganization that's super grant
reliant, who's maybe feelingthat stress?
Where are we just in general,like the state of grants in 2025
(02:59):
?
Right, where are we?
How nervous should peopleactually be?
Is grant funding even somethingthat should continue to focus
on?
Kind of talk to me about whatyou see from your seat.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, I think this is a question that is on the
brains of many folks right nowand I'll speak from a couple of
examples I can think of ofnonprofits that I've been
working with and just beenhearing from across Instrumental
, but also just my kind ofgeneral take on where things are
going.
I think it's a combination offactors.
I think some folks maybe someof these larger organizations
(03:31):
who have relied on federalfunding for their more
substantial grant programs aregoing to see, obviously, a huge
hit, and have already.
For example, we were just inNashville last week for our
company Offsite, which was awonderful experience being all
together.
We're a remote team, so it wasgreat to bring everyone together
and visit some nonprofitcustomers while we were there,
(03:52):
one of whom is Second Harvest.
They're one of the largest foodbanks in middle Tennessee.
They do incredible work.
It was so cool seeing them inaction and one of the things
that they were lamenting on isthat they had just lost federal
funding.
They had lost $3 million towardone of their Keystone projects
and you could see the looks ontheir faces, just how
(04:14):
demoralizing that process wasfor them and how you know this
experience has been.
So just seeing that, I think youknow there are going to be some
organizations that are going toget hit hard right now.
They their approach from theywere sharing is that they are
revisiting some of their grantsthat maybe they have not applied
(04:38):
for in the past, and nowthey're considering more private
foundations.
Private foundations are goingto step up to the plate.
That being said, I think somefoundations are being a little
bit hesitant, waiting to seewhat's going to happen.
So this is a bit of a waitinggame.
Foundations are getting a senseof where is the administration
going with some of these futurecuts that are happening and how
(05:00):
much do private foundations needto step up to fill the gap.
But there is this belief in thenext six months or so, that
private foundation funding isgoing to be a big driver for
folks, so they're going toreallocate some energy towards
some of those grants.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Okay.
So I think one of the thingsthat, at least from my
perspective, for grants thatI've had to write, or any of
those pieces, it can be such atedious process right, the
application, but the trackingand the reporting and all of the
pieces I'm curious about.
(05:37):
You know there's tons ofconversation around AI right now
, so I'd love to dig into that alittle bit.
You know, chat GPT is good fora lot of things.
Is it good for writing grantproposals?
Probably not, but are thereways that you're seeing emerge
right now that are easier tolike make it where AI is making
(06:01):
the grant process easier forfolks?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yes, I would say unequivocally yes, there are
many ways.
I think people are trying tosave themselves time and that's
like what you were saying withthe grants process it's a timely
, tedious process.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, it's so time consuming.
It is Especially fororganizations, you know, because
you have a ripple effect rightAbsolutely when all of a sudden
they might be down some funding,so some staff get eliminated,
and now, instead of having afull-time grant writer, we have
somebody who's supposed to bedoing grants on top of all of
their other things 100%, whichmakes that even more challenging
(06:37):
and we say at InstrumentalGrant Seeking it's a team sport.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I mean, you may be the individual at your
organization who's responsiblefor grants, or you might be
responsible for grants as one ofyour components of your job,
but it's not just one personthat's making the grant come to
life.
Right, you have to have theprogram staff who are going to
implement the grant.
You need your finance team orwhoever's doing like budget,
pulling together your QuickBooksreports, right?
So I think, in the sense ofwhere can tools and maybe AI
(07:05):
specifically help folks savetime so that they're not chasing
people down the hall or, youknow, have these long email
threads of who's on first foreach thing, right?
I think where we see grantseekers really succeed is that
they have systems in place.
I think that's the bottom line,and sometimes those systems
(07:25):
take time and effort and maybemoney to implement.
So maybe the ones that are ableto return their investment on
some sort of platform or somesort of system in place, they
are able to not be kind of inthis survival mode of like we're
constantly just seeking thenext thing right, they're
actually a grant strategy WithAI.
(07:46):
I have seen not only the grantwriting piece but, I think
evaluation of funders is a waythat AI can support you.
If you think, for example, likegrant seekers looking out there
for grants, they have a list ofI don't know 100 potential
funders right, and not everyoneis going to be their best match,
like you might like swipe rightor swipe left right On some of
(08:08):
these, like you're kind ofmatchmaking this process and
you're seeing if your missionalignment and your you know
visions and your objectives thatyou have for your programs
align with the funder.
So some folks have been usingthings like chat GPT to upload
in okay, here's myorganization's profile, here's
this funder.
Can you assess which ones wouldbe most aligned?
(08:29):
And then you're not wastingtime on applications where the
funder alignment isn't eventhere from the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, oh, that's really interesting.
But also I'm just I have thismental image in my head right
now of like the Tinder, ofgrants you get to swipe both
sides, and I think that thatwould be hysterical, right, I
can just envision it right nowand I think that's yeah,
everybody gets their like, thefoundations and the people all
get their profile and we justget to swipe on each other
(08:56):
hilarious yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So the funder matchmaking piece.
I think that's a useful a usecase for ai I.
I think the way we've beenusing it and instrumental is
both with the writingapplication.
So you know you might havewritten a million proposals like
a lot of grand seekers, likethey have their templates, but
they've also like written thesenuanced proposals and maybe they
have these really great tidbitsthat they don't get to use for
(09:18):
another application.
We've seen that folks can taketheir like their words.
They've written these alreadyand use AI to craft new
responses that are related tothe funder that they're applying
for.
So again, just like heading downon some of the hours that it
might take for someone torestart and refresh an
application.
Yeah, on the post-award side,one other thing I'll add is
(09:38):
being able to review your awardletter and ensure you're
complying.
This is like a huge topic.
I think that doesn't get a lotof attention.
But once you've won the grant,how do you make sure that you're
going to align with all theneeds that the Thunder has?
And sometimes it can be reallynuanced and specific.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And I think the word you and I were talking a little
bit before the show that youused was life cycle, and I think
I thought it was so interestingbecause I think that's not,
that's not necessarily theframework in which we tend to
think about it, butrealistically, once you get that
award letter, that's not whereit stops.
From a grant writer perspective, that can feel like the finish
(10:23):
line, but from an organizationalperspective, that is the start
of all of the next hoops andhurdles that have to continue to
be maintained 100%.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, one of our partners, rachel Werner.
She always uses this great lineof that you should be looking
at every grant application witha post-award lens and that's
really stuck with me.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah Right, you know a lot offolks are they're just looking
at the application as like, okay, where's the quickest way we
can kind of fund these programsor cover staff time, whatever it
may be.
But what they really should bethinking about and for some of
(10:51):
these starter organizations thathaven't won a ton of grants yet
, you know you should be reallythinking about can we actually
follow the grant terms?
Can we comply with what's beingrequested?
You know you want to build on.
You're getting these wins bywinning the grant right.
So making sure you can actuallyhold up your end of the bargain
is really valuable andimportant.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So I mean, obviously your lens is going to be
instrumental and there's a lotof tools I know with to to track
that.
But I think it's interesting tothink about, just outside of
the tools perspective, thestaffing perspective within that
right, because I feel like,especially in this grants world
(11:35):
and because of all of thetracking that has to happen,
this is one of those areas wherethe silos within organizations
have got to come down, becausetracking those outcomes has to
involve program staff, it has toinvolve leadership, it has to
involve finance.
And I think that's where a lotof folks get hung up is that we,
(11:56):
like I would just look at mylittle lane instead of that big
picture.
Organizationally Right, but itjust it can't be just one
person's job.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, I like to say that the grant seeker in an
organization is like thequarterback, you know, they're
the ones that are going to helpset the course for how grant
seeking happens at theirorganization right.
Not just application process,the entire implementation of the
grants lifecycle.
There were so many exampleswhere we would not, as program
(12:26):
staff, be aware that maybesomeone in a different
department had applied for agrant and then we had
requirements to in ourprogramming, right, and we're
like, wait, we didn't even applyfor the grant or that we want
it right, and now we're beingasked to do these things.
So I think your point is supervaluable, just like making sure
folks are aware and transparentand have clear expectations on
their role in the grant seekingprocess is going to help with
(12:49):
that whole like life cycle, fromgrant birth all the way to the
conclusion of the grant.
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Let's talk for a second,specifically to.
Maybe we're going to.
We're going to hone in on theexecutive director for a second.
Yeah, sure're going to.
We're going to hone in on theexecutive director for a second.
(13:43):
Or maybe the developmentdirector, something someone in
leadership.
As someone who has been in theprogram side right but also
understands that grant side, arethere things that those leaders
can do to help facilitate thatprocess?
How do we like, as leaders,what can we do to make our
organizations better about that?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, a couple of things come to mind, I think.
First off, having clearpriorities of when and why we
pursue grants is really key, andthat is sometimes directed by
leadership.
Sometimes it's, you know,driven by the development
director or the grant seekerthat maybe is kind of operating
on their own, the in-house grantwriter.
(14:24):
I think having the go or no-goevaluation understanding within
the organization is supervaluable.
Sometimes there's thisperception that grants not are
easy.
But this like low hanging fruit, like why haven't we gone for
(14:45):
this Mackenzie Scott grant, likeit's seen in our news, like I
think we should just go for it.
And there is this yeah, I thinkincorrect perception that it's
pretty quick to turn around.
You can get a grant in and thenit's done Right, but as we know
, it's it's a long process.
So I think having leadershiphave clear goals of like here's
the type of funding we want topursue and when it's aligned,
(15:08):
like we say yes, we don't do X,y, z, right, maybe we don't have
the capacity to turn around agrant in 24 hours, like that's
generally just not going to be athing we do.
Or we only want to apply tofunders who are funding, let's
say, you know, more than 30 or40% of their funders or fundees
I'm sorry, are new granteesright?
(15:31):
Like maybe we have like somequalifiers to make sure that
we're not going after people whoaren't even funding new
grantees.
So, like that's one thing, Ithink, the prioritization of
when we go for grants.
And then I think the second is,I think just my thought process
here is just the visibilityacross teams, like if leadership
can help implement systems andthen adhere to the systems.
(15:53):
That could be as simple as anAsana board or having a shared
calendar where there'svisibility across the
organization at a leadershiplevel all the way down to
program staff of like here'swhere the grant life cycle is
happening.
If the board is involved ingrant processes, making sure
there's a standing meeting wherewhoever is grant seeking on
behalf of the organization canregularly meet with the board or
(16:14):
pitch them on.
Here's an update, a snapshot ofwhat we're doing with grant
seeking.
Those were the, I think, thekey parts where leadership can
support.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, I think that's great.
So talk to us a little bitabout kind of again as we look
at the total overall grantstrategy, which can feel a
little overwhelming on a goodday, let alone at the moment.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthe diversification of like.
(16:47):
If somebody has statisticallyor historically more donor or
corporate giving is now even agood time to dip your toe in and
(17:08):
start a grants program.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Gosh, this is a really good question.
I mean, this one is tough.
I'm just thinking about all thedifferent types of
organizations we work with and Ithink it varies.
It depends on your internalcapacity.
I mean, it's no small ask tostart a giving drive right, Like
it's like okay, focus all ourenergy on individual giving.
(17:34):
That's a whole differentplaybook than grants.
So, like it's hard for me tosay which way an organization
should go, but I I do see moreorganizations this year, in 2025
, focusing on diversification offunding and be that across
grants, the types of grantsthey're diversifying with.
Maybe some folks already have astrong, like individual giving
(17:58):
program, or they're looking moreinto donor advised funds, like
maybe there's ways they canexpand on what they're already
working on and doing well.
That's where I probably wouldput my faith in is let's like 2x
or 3x the things that you thinkare doing well in your
organization, rather than justkind of going down a whole
different path and startingsomething new.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Oh, that's a good point.
So I think that's interesting.
Earlier you had called grantslow-hanging fruit and I've been
like that's the perception.
I know, and that is theperception, but it's so funny to
me.
I've been kind of noodling thatsince you said it.
It's so funny to me that thatis the perception, right, as if
grants are going to be this beall and end all, easy fix to
(18:41):
life, when it's literally one ofthe hardest ways to go about
funding.
It's just funny that theperception of that.
So I'm curious is theresomething we can do to change
that?
Like, as you and I sit here aspeople who serve the non-profit
space, right to help non-profitsgrow their impact, yeah, are
(19:06):
there things that we can bedoing to help change that
perspective?
Or like, what do we need, whatmessages need to get out there
to help change that idea?
Because I don't, I, I hear it,I agree, but I don't.
I hear it, I agree, but I don'tlove, especially for some of
our, like the folks who work ingrant full time.
(19:27):
I don't love how that kind ofminimizes their impact or
whatever.
How do we change that?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, gosh, that's such a great question.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like
it.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I know, yeah, and I same here hearing you say it
again.
I'm thinking about all thefolks I know who are working so
hard, right?
So it's a couple things I guessI'll share what's coming top of
mind.
The thing that again I'll comeback to, which feels repetitive
but is about expectations aroundgrants.
(20:04):
I think, like settingexpectations on what is a good
fit grant and what is a good fitfunder, I think that piece
sometimes is misunderstood by aboard or you know, maybe in
leadership who's not touchinggrants as regularly.
This idea of, like there's moneyout there, why aren't we
(20:27):
assessing it?
And I think that's where someof this misperception lies.
Right, Like, yes, of coursethere is funding out there and
you should apply to grants thatare good fits for you, but our
time is valuable and if you area small organization or you're a
grant seeker who's maybe oneperson shop, you've got to
decide when it makes the mostsense to spend time on a grant.
(20:47):
When we surveyed grant writersabout how long one application
takes, I'm trying to rememberthe data here and I'll send it
to you afterwards just to makesure this is correct but if I
remember correctly, almost 75%of folks we surveyed said it
took upwards of 40 hours for agrant application.
One grant application For oneapplication.
(21:08):
So think about that.
That's like a full work week,yes, on one.
So that's, I think, where someof this misperception lies is
like, why aren't we going forthis funding?
It's because we have to beprecious with our time and I
think you know, in the nonprofitworld, this is often something
we come up against.
We are passionate folks who arereally inspired by the work our
(21:31):
organization is doing and wewant to give it 110%.
But advocating for your timeand saying here's where I think
practically our resources shouldlie, here's where I think we
yes, I agree, and I think it'sinteresting because man 40 hours
is so many hours.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, and I mean, you know, I think it varies Federal
grants, for example, gosh, theytake longer Absolutely, and I
think part of it, at least insome of my experiences in that,
in that space and in that worldum is that you get folks who
don't understand the limitationsright because it does like,
(22:16):
yeah, there's funding out thereand we should be able to access
it, but the funding isn't goingto pay for maybe the things we
think that we need funding forright yeah I sat in a board
meeting one time where we weretalking about the fact that the
air conditioner needed to bereplaced in the building.
Right, it's a need, it has tohappen.
(22:37):
Your staff can't be likesweltering all summer.
This has to get done.
But these are.
That's not as much as maybe Iwish there were.
There's not a lot of peoplethat are really passionate about
funding HVAC work.
I wish that that was true.
But I sat in the board meetingand they were like well, we just
(22:58):
need to go get a grant for it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
That's classic.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, for what?
Unless there's, like, maybe,some sort of energy efficiency
upgrade that you're going to doas part of this process that
might then fall under this likean energy type grant, right?
Um, but for the most part and Ithink maybe that's the
(23:23):
misconception is notunderstanding what early part of
it is.
Not understanding what grantsare actually for and how driven
they are by outcomes yes, andbeing able to prove those
outcomes, yes, because it wouldbe lovely to think that there's
a society where you just knockon a foundation's door and say,
excuse me, my heater broke.
(23:44):
Yeah, you'd be willing to justgive me 10 grand to go fix that
Right.
That is not the process, right,and it really has to align with
their outcomes.
And I think that's the piecethat a lot of folks don't
understand the depth of.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Right, well, and if you're an expert grant seeker
and there's probably folks thatare listening that you know have
more experience kind of divingdeep on how you evaluate if a
funder is willing to give you$10,000 for HVAC, right, some of
that, yeah, I mean there areways you can look back at Form
990s, like I know inInstrumental we synthesize that
(24:19):
information for you.
But you can actually go on theIRS's website and look at a
funder's 990 and look at pastgrantees and what the funding
specifically funded.
Because that again is goingback to your point of like okay,
are we looking for generaloperating?
That is very specific.
You know surprisingly specific,narrow amount of funders will
do just general operating.
(24:40):
So you can do that research andactually that's something that
you know tools can help you do.
I've mentioned instrumental.
You can also ask AI to supportyou in that so that you can cut
down on some of the researchtime there.
But yeah, that is such a goodpoint of like.
These grants are often prettydarn specific.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yes, and I think that's the general population
consensus.
That would not be understood.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Wouldn't it be great if wecould just get the money and
spend it how we wanted?
But often it's a little bitmore specific.
So specific yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Okay, so we just have a couple minutes left.
If somebody wanted to learnmore about instrumental or
connect with you, what would bethe best way to do that.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, you can go onto our website, instrumental, and
that's with an S.
It's I N S T R U M E N T L,that's instrumentalcom, and
you'll be able to take a look atsome of the systems that we
have in place to support fulllife cycle grant seeking.
I mean, coming from thenonprofit world, the first time
I got into the Instrumentalplatform I was pretty blown away
(25:42):
, I think.
As of this morning I lookedbefore I hopped on our call and
there's about 24,000 fundingopportunities that are listed in
the Instrumentl database thatyou can have access to right
away.
So check it out.
I highly encourage people tojust explore.
It's no strings attached so youcan look and see if there's
things even good for yourorganization in there before you
commit to anything.
(26:02):
And also we provide a bunch offree educational programming and
that's where you'll see me andmy colleague Nia a lot.
If you go to our events page,you can join any of our
workshops.
We talk about a lot ofdifferent grant seeking topics,
but we'd love to see some folksin the room that can learn a
little bit more and get kind ofthat professional development
edge on taking their grantsseeking to the next level.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, that's great.
Yes, instrumental, but with noextra E, it's exactly right.
Yeah, it's funny because, yeah,I do.
It's funny Cause I feel likeI'm on a, on a trend right now.
I recorded an episode just acouple of days ago with Kim
bottom from feather, who alsoyes, yeah.
I don't know what.
All of a sudden, we have atrend of tech platforms leaving
(26:44):
that extra vowel at the end out.
It's classic.
Yeah, oh, funny, yeah.
Vowel at the end out it'sclassic, yeah, so funny, yeah,
fantastic, okay.
So something I like to do toclose the show would be if you
were talking to maybe someonewho is a grant professional or
for whom grants has landed ontheir plate because of all of
(27:07):
the things, what is one piece ofmaybe wisdom or encouragement
or advice that you would give tothem at this particular point
in time?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah, I think this is a great question.
I have thought about this sincethe start of our program
because I do feel like grantseekers often are they're
responsible for so much and yetthey often don't have a ton of
support in the organization.
So my one big piece of adviceis advocating for your time.
(27:36):
Your time is extremely valuable.
It's something that can easilyfall by the wayside and can be
really hard to do.
As I mentioned earlier, wealways kind of put a lot on
ourselves to support, maybe thejobs of more than one person two
, three people and just makingsure that you value your time
(27:59):
and advocate for yourself.
If there's things that wouldhelp you get organized, if
there's things that would helpyou save time, support other
team members, advocate for that.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
I love it.
Yes, it's so easy to just think, oh, we work for a nonprofit
and I need to just give and giveand give, but your time is
valuable, so I really yeah, Iappreciate that call out a lot.
Awesome, Rachel.
Thank you so much.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation.
I appreciate all the insightand wisdom.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Oh, of course, Thanks again for having me.
It was really great talkingwith you for having me.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
It was really great talking with you.
My pleasure Again.
So our guest today has beenRachel Fidler Cannella, who's
the Events and Community Managerat Instrumental.
You can find out more at theirwebsite, instrumentalcom.
We'll link that in the shownotes as well.
But thanks for joining us.
My name is Megan Spear and I'myour host and we'll see you next
time you.
Drowning in spreadsheets and manual
processes.
Bonterra Apricot is the smarter, faster way for nonprofits to
manage programs, track outcomesand actually show your impact.
Find out how at BonterraTechcomslash Nonprofit Hub.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:20):
I'm your host, megan Spear, andalong with me today from
Instrumental is Rachel FidlerCannella, who's the events and
community manager.
There at Instrumental, we aredigging into a topic that I feel
like is causing stress for somany in our nonprofit sector
right now, looking at grants andall of the things that that
(00:41):
entails.
It's going to be a goodconversation, hopefully with
some really great takeaways foreveryone.
So, rachel, welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you so much.
Happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of
your background in the nonprofitspace that brought you here
today.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Sure, yeah.
So I've been in the nonprofitworld for a little over a decade
.
I came out of that right out ofcollege, working mostly in
museums, and informal educationis really my passion.
I started out working atchildren's museums both in San
Diego and in Portland and thenmoved into developing
(01:15):
educational content for ourlocal Holocaust Museum here in
Los Angeles.
I had done my undergrad onHolocaust memorial spaces and
essentially did a case study onstaff who work in those spaces
and their motivations forchoosing that line of work how
they compartmentalize traumaticmaterial really interesting
stuff and then eventually endedup working at that museum
(01:35):
producing programming there.
That was a really wonderfulexperience and after my time
there I moved over towards theNatural History Museum of Los
Angeles County.
I oversaw the school andteacher programs team there
where we served about 200,000kiddos or so annually between
NHM and the La Brea Tar Pits,which some folks might be
(01:55):
familiar with in the center ofLA.
So I came from the educationalexperience, wrote grants as a
part of my kind of educationalprogramming piece at both of
those museum locations and sawthis gig instrumental and
thought I'd try my hand atserving nonprofits in a
different capacity in this way.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I love it.
So I think it's fair to saythat anyone who works in
nonprofit right now I mean notthat nonprofit work is ever easy
, right, frontlines, like yousaid, dealing with maybe some
really traumatic information,some really hard situations it's
never easy.
We have certainly taken a hitover the last few months with
(02:35):
both like the attitudes towardsnonprofit as well as around
grant funding especially.
So let's talk.
Let's start with, I guess,maybe the conversation.
If somebody is maybe anorganization that's super grant
reliant, who's maybe feelingthat stress?
Where are we just in general,like the state of grants in 2025
(02:59):
?
Right, where are we?
How nervous should peopleactually be?
Is grant funding even somethingthat should continue to focus
on?
Kind of talk to me about whatyou see from your seat.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Yeah, I think this is a question that is on the
brains of many folks right nowand I'll speak from a couple of
examples I can think of ofnonprofits that I've been
working with and just beenhearing from across Instrumental
, but also just my kind ofgeneral take on where things are
going.
I think it's a combination offactors.
I think some folks maybe someof these larger organizations
(03:31):
who have relied on federalfunding for their more
substantial grant programs aregoing to see, obviously, a huge
hit, and have already.
For example, we were just inNashville last week for our
company Offsite, which was awonderful experience being all
together.
We're a remote team, so it wasgreat to bring everyone together
and visit some nonprofitcustomers while we were there,
(03:52):
one of whom is Second Harvest.
They're one of the largest foodbanks in middle Tennessee.
They do incredible work.
It was so cool seeing them inaction and one of the things
that they were lamenting on isthat they had just lost federal
funding.
They had lost $3 million towardone of their Keystone projects
and you could see the looks ontheir faces, just how
(04:14):
demoralizing that process wasfor them and how you know this
experience has been.
So just seeing that, I think youknow there are going to be some
organizations that are going toget hit hard right now.
They their approach from theywere sharing is that they are
revisiting some of their grantsthat maybe they have not applied
(04:38):
for in the past, and nowthey're considering more private
foundations.
Private foundations are goingto step up to the plate.
That being said, I think somefoundations are being a little
bit hesitant, waiting to seewhat's going to happen.
So this is a bit of a waitinggame.
Foundations are getting a senseof where is the administration
going with some of these futurecuts that are happening and how
(05:00):
much do private foundations needto step up to fill the gap.
But there is this belief in thenext six months or so, that
private foundation funding isgoing to be a big driver for
folks, so they're going toreallocate some energy towards
some of those grants.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Okay.
So I think one of the thingsthat, at least from my
perspective, for grants thatI've had to write, or any of
those pieces, it can be such atedious process right, the
application, but the trackingand the reporting and all of the
pieces I'm curious about.
(05:37):
You know there's tons ofconversation around AI right now
, so I'd love to dig into that alittle bit.
You know, chat GPT is good fora lot of things.
Is it good for writing grantproposals?
Probably not, but are thereways that you're seeing emerge
right now that are easier tolike make it where AI is making
(06:01):
the grant process easier forfolks?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yes, I would say unequivocally yes, there are
many ways.
I think people are trying tosave themselves time and that's
like what you were saying withthe grants process it's a timely
, tedious process.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, it's so time consuming.
It is Especially fororganizations, you know, because
you have a ripple effect rightAbsolutely when all of a sudden
they might be down some funding,so some staff get eliminated,
and now, instead of having afull-time grant writer, we have
somebody who's supposed to bedoing grants on top of all of
their other things 100%, whichmakes that even more challenging
(06:37):
and we say at InstrumentalGrant Seeking it's a team sport.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I mean, you may be the individual at your
organization who's responsiblefor grants, or you might be
responsible for grants as one ofyour components of your job,
but it's not just one personthat's making the grant come to
life.
Right, you have to have theprogram staff who are going to
implement the grant.
You need your finance team orwhoever's doing like budget,
pulling together your QuickBooksreports, right?
So I think, in the sense ofwhere can tools and maybe AI
(07:05):
specifically help folks savetime so that they're not chasing
people down the hall or, youknow, have these long email
threads of who's on first foreach thing, right?
I think where we see grantseekers really succeed is that
they have systems in place.
I think that's the bottom line,and sometimes those systems
(07:25):
take time and effort and maybemoney to implement.
So maybe the ones that are ableto return their investment on
some sort of platform or somesort of system in place, they
are able to not be kind of inthis survival mode of like we're
constantly just seeking thenext thing right, they're
actually a grant strategy WithAI.
(07:46):
I have seen not only the grantwriting piece but, I think
evaluation of funders is a waythat AI can support you.
If you think, for example, likegrant seekers looking out there
for grants, they have a list ofI don't know 100 potential
funders right, and not everyoneis going to be their best match,
like you might like swipe rightor swipe left right On some of
(08:08):
these, like you're kind ofmatchmaking this process and
you're seeing if your missionalignment and your you know
visions and your objectives thatyou have for your programs
align with the funder.
So some folks have been usingthings like chat GPT to upload
in okay, here's myorganization's profile, here's
this funder.
Can you assess which ones wouldbe most aligned?
(08:29):
And then you're not wastingtime on applications where the
funder alignment isn't eventhere from the first place.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Yeah, oh, that's really interesting.
But also I'm just I have thismental image in my head right
now of like the Tinder, ofgrants you get to swipe both
sides, and I think that thatwould be hysterical, right, I
can just envision it right nowand I think that's yeah,
everybody gets their like, thefoundations and the people all
get their profile and we justget to swipe on each other
(08:56):
hilarious yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So the funder matchmaking piece.
I think that's a useful a usecase for ai I.
I think the way we've beenusing it and instrumental is
both with the writingapplication.
So you know you might havewritten a million proposals like
a lot of grand seekers, likethey have their templates, but
they've also like written thesenuanced proposals and maybe they
have these really great tidbitsthat they don't get to use for
(09:18):
another application.
We've seen that folks can taketheir like their words.
They've written these alreadyand use AI to craft new
responses that are related tothe funder that they're applying
for.
So again, just like heading downon some of the hours that it
might take for someone torestart and refresh an
application.
Yeah, on the post-award side,one other thing I'll add is
(09:38):
being able to review your awardletter and ensure you're
complying.
This is like a huge topic.
I think that doesn't get a lotof attention.
But once you've won the grant,how do you make sure that you're
going to align with all theneeds that the Thunder has?
And sometimes it can be reallynuanced and specific.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
And I think the word you and I were talking a little
bit before the show that youused was life cycle, and I think
I thought it was so interestingbecause I think that's not,
that's not necessarily theframework in which we tend to
think about it, butrealistically, once you get that
award letter, that's not whereit stops.
From a grant writer perspective, that can feel like the finish
(10:23):
line, but from an organizationalperspective, that is the start
of all of the next hoops andhurdles that have to continue to
be maintained 100%.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, one of our partners, rachel Werner.
She always uses this great lineof that you should be looking
at every grant application witha post-award lens and that's
really stuck with me.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah Right, you know a lot offolks are they're just looking
at the application as like, okay, where's the quickest way we
can kind of fund these programsor cover staff time, whatever it
may be.
But what they really should bethinking about and for some of
(10:51):
these starter organizations thathaven't won a ton of grants yet
, you know you should be reallythinking about can we actually
follow the grant terms?
Can we comply with what's beingrequested?
You know you want to build on.
You're getting these wins bywinning the grant right.
So making sure you can actuallyhold up your end of the bargain
is really valuable andimportant.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So I mean, obviously your lens is going to be
instrumental and there's a lotof tools I know with to to track
that.
But I think it's interesting tothink about, just outside of
the tools perspective, thestaffing perspective within that
right, because I feel like,especially in this grants world
(11:35):
and because of all of thetracking that has to happen,
this is one of those areas wherethe silos within organizations
have got to come down, becausetracking those outcomes has to
involve program staff, it has toinvolve leadership, it has to
involve finance.
And I think that's where a lotof folks get hung up is that we,
(11:56):
like I would just look at mylittle lane instead of that big
picture.
Organizationally Right, but itjust it can't be just one
person's job.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, I like to say that the grant seeker in an
organization is like thequarterback, you know, they're
the ones that are going to helpset the course for how grant
seeking happens at theirorganization right.
Not just application process,the entire implementation of the
grants lifecycle.
There were so many exampleswhere we would not, as program
(12:26):
staff, be aware that maybesomeone in a different
department had applied for agrant and then we had
requirements to in ourprogramming, right, and we're
like, wait, we didn't even applyfor the grant or that we want
it right, and now we're beingasked to do these things.
So I think your point is supervaluable, just like making sure
folks are aware and transparentand have clear expectations on
their role in the grant seekingprocess is going to help with
(12:49):
that whole like life cycle, fromgrant birth all the way to the
conclusion of the grant.
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(13:22):
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Let's talk for a second,specifically to.
Maybe we're going to.
We're going to hone in on theexecutive director for a second.
Yeah, sure're going to.
We're going to hone in on theexecutive director for a second.
(13:43):
Or maybe the developmentdirector, something someone in
leadership.
As someone who has been in theprogram side right but also
understands that grant side, arethere things that those leaders
can do to help facilitate thatprocess?
How do we like, as leaders,what can we do to make our
organizations better about that?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, a couple of things come to mind, I think.
First off, having clearpriorities of when and why we
pursue grants is really key, andthat is sometimes directed by
leadership.
Sometimes it's, you know,driven by the development
director or the grant seekerthat maybe is kind of operating
on their own, the in-house grantwriter.
(14:24):
I think having the go or no-goevaluation understanding within
the organization is supervaluable.
Sometimes there's thisperception that grants not are
easy.
But this like low hanging fruit, like why haven't we gone for
(14:45):
this Mackenzie Scott grant, likeit's seen in our news, like I
think we should just go for it.
And there is this yeah, I thinkincorrect perception that it's
pretty quick to turn around.
You can get a grant in and thenit's done Right, but as we know
, it's it's a long process.
So I think having leadershiphave clear goals of like here's
the type of funding we want topursue and when it's aligned,
(15:08):
like we say yes, we don't do X,y, z, right, maybe we don't have
the capacity to turn around agrant in 24 hours, like that's
generally just not going to be athing we do.
Or we only want to apply tofunders who are funding, let's
say, you know, more than 30 or40% of their funders or fundees
I'm sorry, are new granteesright?
(15:31):
Like maybe we have like somequalifiers to make sure that
we're not going after people whoaren't even funding new
grantees.
So, like that's one thing, Ithink, the prioritization of
when we go for grants.
And then I think the second is,I think just my thought process
here is just the visibilityacross teams, like if leadership
can help implement systems andthen adhere to the systems.
(15:53):
That could be as simple as anAsana board or having a shared
calendar where there'svisibility across the
organization at a leadershiplevel all the way down to
program staff of like here'swhere the grant life cycle is
happening.
If the board is involved ingrant processes, making sure
there's a standing meeting wherewhoever is grant seeking on
behalf of the organization canregularly meet with the board or
(16:14):
pitch them on.
Here's an update, a snapshot ofwhat we're doing with grant
seeking.
Those were the, I think, thekey parts where leadership can
support.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, I think that's great.
So talk to us a little bitabout kind of again as we look
at the total overall grantstrategy, which can feel a
little overwhelming on a goodday, let alone at the moment.
Talk to me a little bit aboutthe diversification of like.
(16:47):
If somebody has statisticallyor historically more donor or
corporate giving is now even agood time to dip your toe in and
(17:08):
start a grants program.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Gosh, this is a really good question.
I mean, this one is tough.
I'm just thinking about all thedifferent types of
organizations we work with and Ithink it varies.
It depends on your internalcapacity.
I mean, it's no small ask tostart a giving drive right, Like
it's like okay, focus all ourenergy on individual giving.
(17:34):
That's a whole differentplaybook than grants.
So, like it's hard for me tosay which way an organization
should go, but I I do see moreorganizations this year, in 2025
, focusing on diversification offunding and be that across
grants, the types of grantsthey're diversifying with.
Maybe some folks already have astrong, like individual giving
(17:58):
program, or they're looking moreinto donor advised funds, like
maybe there's ways they canexpand on what they're already
working on and doing well.
That's where I probably wouldput my faith in is let's like 2x
or 3x the things that you thinkare doing well in your
organization, rather than justkind of going down a whole
different path and startingsomething new.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Oh, that's a good point.
So I think that's interesting.
Earlier you had called grantslow-hanging fruit and I've been
like that's the perception.
I know, and that is theperception, but it's so funny to
me.
I've been kind of noodling thatsince you said it.
It's so funny to me that thatis the perception, right, as if
grants are going to be this beall and end all, easy fix to
(18:41):
life, when it's literally one ofthe hardest ways to go about
funding.
It's just funny that theperception of that.
So I'm curious is theresomething we can do to change
that?
Like, as you and I sit here aspeople who serve the non-profit
space, right to help non-profitsgrow their impact, yeah, are
(19:06):
there things that we can bedoing to help change that
perspective?
Or like, what do we need, whatmessages need to get out there
to help change that idea?
Because I don't, I, I hear it,I agree, but I don't.
I hear it, I agree, but I don'tlove, especially for some of
our, like the folks who work ingrant full time.
(19:27):
I don't love how that kind ofminimizes their impact or
whatever.
How do we change that?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, gosh, that's such a great question.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like
it.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I know, yeah, and I same here hearing you say it
again.
I'm thinking about all thefolks I know who are working so
hard, right?
So it's a couple things I guessI'll share what's coming top of
mind.
The thing that again I'll comeback to, which feels repetitive
but is about expectations aroundgrants.
(20:04):
I think, like settingexpectations on what is a good
fit grant and what is a good fitfunder, I think that piece
sometimes is misunderstood by aboard or you know, maybe in
leadership who's not touchinggrants as regularly.
This idea of, like there's moneyout there, why aren't we
(20:27):
assessing it?
And I think that's where someof this misperception lies.
Right, Like, yes, of coursethere is funding out there and
you should apply to grants thatare good fits for you, but our
time is valuable and if you area small organization or you're a
grant seeker who's maybe oneperson shop, you've got to
decide when it makes the mostsense to spend time on a grant.
(20:47):
When we surveyed grant writersabout how long one application
takes, I'm trying to rememberthe data here and I'll send it
to you afterwards just to makesure this is correct but if I
remember correctly, almost 75%of folks we surveyed said it
took upwards of 40 hours for agrant application.
One grant application For oneapplication.
(21:08):
So think about that.
That's like a full work week,yes, on one.
So that's, I think, where someof this misperception lies is
like, why aren't we going forthis funding?
It's because we have to beprecious with our time and I
think you know, in the nonprofitworld, this is often something
we come up against.
We are passionate folks who arereally inspired by the work our
(21:31):
organization is doing and wewant to give it 110%.
But advocating for your timeand saying here's where I think
practically our resources shouldlie, here's where I think we
yes, I agree, and I think it'sinteresting because man 40 hours
is so many hours.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, and I mean, you know, I think it varies Federal
grants, for example, gosh, theytake longer Absolutely, and I
think part of it, at least insome of my experiences in that,
in that space and in that worldum is that you get folks who
don't understand the limitationsright because it does like,
(22:16):
yeah, there's funding out thereand we should be able to access
it, but the funding isn't goingto pay for maybe the things we
think that we need funding forright yeah I sat in a board
meeting one time where we weretalking about the fact that the
air conditioner needed to bereplaced in the building.
Right, it's a need, it has tohappen.
(22:37):
Your staff can't be likesweltering all summer.
This has to get done.
But these are.
That's not as much as maybe Iwish there were.
There's not a lot of peoplethat are really passionate about
funding HVAC work.
I wish that that was true.
But I sat in the board meetingand they were like well, we just
(22:58):
need to go get a grant for it.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
That's classic.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah, for what?
Unless there's, like, maybe,some sort of energy efficiency
upgrade that you're going to doas part of this process that
might then fall under this likean energy type grant, right?
Um, but for the most part and Ithink maybe that's the
(23:23):
misconception is notunderstanding what early part of
it is.
Not understanding what grantsare actually for and how driven
they are by outcomes yes, andbeing able to prove those
outcomes, yes, because it wouldbe lovely to think that there's
a society where you just knockon a foundation's door and say,
excuse me, my heater broke.
(23:44):
Yeah, you'd be willing to justgive me 10 grand to go fix that
Right.
That is not the process, right,and it really has to align with
their outcomes.
And I think that's the piecethat a lot of folks don't
understand the depth of.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Right, well, and if you're an expert grant seeker
and there's probably folks thatare listening that you know have
more experience kind of divingdeep on how you evaluate if a
funder is willing to give you$10,000 for HVAC, right, some of
that, yeah, I mean there areways you can look back at Form
990s, like I know inInstrumental we synthesize that
(24:19):
information for you.
But you can actually go on theIRS's website and look at a
funder's 990 and look at pastgrantees and what the funding
specifically funded.
Because that again is goingback to your point of like okay,
are we looking for generaloperating?
That is very specific.
You know surprisingly specific,narrow amount of funders will
do just general operating.
(24:40):
So you can do that research andactually that's something that
you know tools can help you do.
I've mentioned instrumental.
You can also ask AI to supportyou in that so that you can cut
down on some of the researchtime there.
But yeah, that is such a goodpoint of like.
These grants are often prettydarn specific.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Yes, and I think that's the general population
consensus.
That would not be understood.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right.
Wouldn't it be great if wecould just get the money and
spend it how we wanted?
But often it's a little bitmore specific.
So specific yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Okay, so we just have a couple minutes left.
If somebody wanted to learnmore about instrumental or
connect with you, what would bethe best way to do that.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, you can go onto our website, instrumental, and
that's with an S.
It's I N S T R U M E N T L,that's instrumentalcom, and
you'll be able to take a look atsome of the systems that we
have in place to support fulllife cycle grant seeking.
I mean, coming from thenonprofit world, the first time
I got into the Instrumentalplatform I was pretty blown away
(25:42):
, I think.
As of this morning I lookedbefore I hopped on our call and
there's about 24,000 fundingopportunities that are listed in
the Instrumentl database thatyou can have access to right
away.
So check it out.
I highly encourage people tojust explore.
It's no strings attached so youcan look and see if there's
things even good for yourorganization in there before you
commit to anything.
(26:02):
And also we provide a bunch offree educational programming and
that's where you'll see me andmy colleague Nia a lot.
If you go to our events page,you can join any of our
workshops.
We talk about a lot ofdifferent grant seeking topics,
but we'd love to see some folksin the room that can learn a
little bit more and get kind ofthat professional development
edge on taking their grantsseeking to the next level.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, that's great.
Yes, instrumental, but with noextra E, it's exactly right.
Yeah, it's funny because, yeah,I do.
It's funny Cause I feel likeI'm on a, on a trend right now.
I recorded an episode just acouple of days ago with Kim
bottom from feather, who alsoyes, yeah.
I don't know what.
All of a sudden, we have atrend of tech platforms leaving
(26:44):
that extra vowel at the end out.
It's classic.
Yeah, oh, funny, yeah.
Vowel at the end out it'sclassic, yeah, so funny, yeah,
fantastic, okay.
So something I like to do toclose the show would be if you
were talking to maybe someonewho is a grant professional or
for whom grants has landed ontheir plate because of all of
(27:07):
the things, what is one piece ofmaybe wisdom or encouragement
or advice that you would give tothem at this particular point
in time?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah, I think this is a great question.
I have thought about this sincethe start of our program
because I do feel like grantseekers often are they're
responsible for so much and yetthey often don't have a ton of
support in the organization.
So my one big piece of adviceis advocating for your time.
(27:36):
Your time is extremely valuable.
It's something that can easilyfall by the wayside and can be
really hard to do.
As I mentioned earlier, wealways kind of put a lot on
ourselves to support, maybe thejobs of more than one person two
, three people and just makingsure that you value your time
(27:59):
and advocate for yourself.
If there's things that wouldhelp you get organized, if
there's things that would helpyou save time, support other
team members, advocate for that.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
I love it.
Yes, it's so easy to just think, oh, we work for a nonprofit
and I need to just give and giveand give, but your time is
valuable, so I really yeah, Iappreciate that call out a lot.
Awesome, Rachel.
Thank you so much.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation.
I appreciate all the insightand wisdom.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Oh, of course, Thanks again for having me.
It was really great talkingwith you for having me.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
It was really great talking with you.
My pleasure Again.
So our guest today has beenRachel Fidler Cannella, who's
the Events and Community Managerat Instrumental.
You can find out more at theirwebsite, instrumentalcom.
We'll link that in the shownotes as well.
But thanks for joining us.
My name is Megan Spear and I'myour host and we'll see you next
time you.
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