August 22, 2025 • 28 mins
In this episode, host Meghan Speer sits down with Chris Wong, founder and executive coach at Leadership Potential and a featured main stage speaker at this year’s Cause Camp. Drawing from his background as a licensed therapist turned leadership and organizational development expert, Chris shares practical strategies for nonprofit leaders—especially those who identify as “chronic people pleasers”—to navigate difficult conversations, balance accountability with support, and set clear boundaries without sacrificing empathy. Together, they explore how regular check-ins, progressive discipline, and value-driven leadership can transform team culture, prevent burnout, and keep organizations mission-focused. Whether you’re leading a small startup nonprofit or a large, established team, this conversation offers actionable insights to help you lead with clarity, courage, and compassion.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:24):
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Chris Wong, who
is the founder and executivecoach at Leadership Potential.
Chris is also going to be onthe main stage at CauseCamp this
year.
Really excited to dig into thatand have him here in Pittsburgh
.
Hoping you're planning to joinus for that as well, because, oh
my gosh, the lineup this yearis just fantastic.
(00:44):
I'm so excited about it, butreally excited to have Chris as
a part of it and to have him onthe podcast today.
Chris, welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Megan, thank you for having me.
I love chatting about thistopic and chatting on podcasts
in general.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, so fun.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour background what brought you
to this point here today, and alittle bit about Leadership
Potential.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
What brought you to this point here today and a
little bit about leadershippotential.
Yeah, I got my start as alicensed therapist and I was
working with adolescents withcomplex developmental trauma and
I love that work.
But I just got burned out.
So I moved into learning anddevelopment because I still
wanted to support people doingthe work.
I still wanted to stay involvedand from there I just loved.
I found a passion for trainingand coaching and helping other
people get better at doing whatthey're doing.
(01:25):
And then I moved into leadershipand organizational development
and I just fell in love with theidea of working on systems,
working on culture, working onbig, big items, big problems,
and then also helping leaders bebetter, because I was realizing
leaders are the main effect andcause of kind of everything in
the organization.
You have a strong leader, youcan have a strong team, you can
(01:47):
have a strong organization andyou can achieve your mission
better.
Essentially, that's all, and sothat's what I do on my own now
is I work with leaders who haveinherited dysfunctional teams
and organizations.
Purpose-driven leaders who wantto make a difference, but
they're just dealing withdysfunctional teams or teams
that are in conflict or chaos.
They need to turn things aroundand never more apparent than
(02:08):
now in our current climate inthe world.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and so that's really where we're
going to dig in today.
I know when you take the stageat CauseCamp, we're going to be
talking about how to have someof those difficult conversations
as a leader, and I'm going tomake an admission on the podcast
today that I've not made before, and that is I've held a lot of
leadership positions in my lifeover the course of my career,
(02:32):
but at my core I am a chronicpeople pleaser and I feel like
sometimes that makes theseconversations really hard.
And I see it so often innonprofit leaders, especially
where we want to be so nicebecause these folks are doing
like they're helping the mission, but maybe there there's some
(02:53):
poor performance or there's anissue or there's chaos, but at
the same time we know like theyare likely at a position where
you were before is being burnedout, they're probably not making
the money that they could makesomewhere else, and so we try to
be really nice and reallygracious and, I'll admit it,
sometimes it has been to thedetriment of my organization
(03:14):
because I wasn't willing to stepon toes, I wasn't willing to
have that uncomfortableconversation.
So let's talk about that.
What do we have to do ifsomebody is in my position
Because, I'm going to be honest,I think there's a lot more
people pleasers out there in theworld than not.
Nobody wants to make peopleuncomfortable.
(03:34):
Nobody wants to do that.
So if we are that, if somebodyis in my boat as the chronic
people pleaser but also inleadership my boat as the
chronic people pleaser but alsoin leadership how do we even
identify?
Like?
This is where we need to startto have those conversations.
If we find ourselves in that,how do we get over the people
pleasing hump?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, I think it starts with mindset, and this is
the example I use with lots ofdifferent leaders is do you have
kids yourself?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I do.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I have one grown daughter okay, imagine your
daughter was back in middleschool, right?
Imagine she came to you andsaid hey, mom, I'm not gonna do
my math homework anymore, I justdon't really care about it and
I prefer to just focus on sports.
What would you say to her?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
oh, that's a no-go.
You gotta, yeah, you have.
You have to meet thoseresponsibilities.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Is it because you hate her that you're saying that
?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
No.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Is it because you're stepping in her dreams and you
don't want to pursue her dreamsor passions?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, I want her to be successful and graduate
school and get into a goodcollege to pursue her future.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I think that's the mindset that we need to think
about when we think about havingany of these difficult
conversations.
Yes, you care about the peopleand that's the mindset that we
need to think about when wethink about having any of these
difficult conversations.
Yes, you care about the peopleand that's good.
You want to that.
That'll help you structure theconversation and say it in a way
that's caring, and not just meyelling at you or being
disrespectful to you, and alsorecognizing that you setting
boundaries.
Having the hard conversationcan come from a place of love,
(05:01):
because you care about theperson.
You want them to succeed, youwant them to do well, and so
it's not about being mean ormicromanaging or anything like
those things that people gethung up on.
It's about you care about them.
You want them to succeed, andthey can't succeed if you don't
give them that direction orguidance or that feedback, or
have that conversation aboutwhat's what they're missing or
(05:22):
how they're missing the mark.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It's interesting, I think, that you use the word
micromanage, because I thinkthat has gotten this connotation
lately, where nobody wants tobe, that no one wants to be the
micromanager, and we know thatnobody wants to feel as a grown
adult.
I don't want to feelmicromanaged either, and so I
think I almost wonder if we'veswung the pendulum too far away
(05:48):
from it, and is that maybecausing a lot of this?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, it happens a lot.
I coach one leader now whoshe's in a hospital system, and
she lost a person previouslybefore I started with her,
because she was so afraid ofmicromanaging she would let them
do whatever they wanted, andluckily this person did a great
job.
They were on point, they dideverything, but they eventually
left because they just keptasking what else should I be
doing, what else should I bedoing?
(06:12):
And she wouldn't give them anyguidance at all, and so he was
like I don't know what to doabout this, I'm just going to
leave.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, okay, so let's put ourselves in that person's
shoes.
How do you course correct?
Because the image that's in myhead right now is that thing
that used to sit on everyone'sdesk, where you have the line of
swinging metal balls right andwe hit one and they all swing
this way, if we find ourselvesswinging too far, the natural
tendency is to swing all the wayback right.
(06:41):
So if we find ourselves in thatposition where we have let
something get out of control, wedidn't want to micromanage, so
everybody's kind of running amokand doing their own thing how
do we course correct withoutgoing to the opposite extreme?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, I think of a two by two grid of, and you have
one axis is accountability andone axis is support, and so you
want to give them maximumaccountability, but you also
want to give them maximumsupport, as they need it to get
to that point.
And so that's where regularcheck-ins help is.
You can course correct in themoment if they're missing the
mark, if they're not doingsomething, if they're behind on
(07:18):
something, and that's part ofthose coaching conversations.
It's not about why aren't youdoing this, it's more about
what's getting in the way.
Do you not have the skill, doyou not have the knowledge?
Do you not have the tools orthe resources?
And if any of these are missing, I can help you figure it out.
Right, let's say, this is yourfirst time in this kind of role.
You don't know how to do it.
I do need to show you how to doit.
(07:39):
I do need to either demonstrateit or teach you or have
somebody mentor you, all thosekinds of things.
But you won't know that unlessyou start having more regular
check-ins and get curious aboutwhat might be happening, because
I think a lot of times also, alot of us assume based upon our
own experiences.
This is why I struggled with it, or this is why I've seen
somebody else struggle with it,so I assume you must be
(07:59):
struggling with it because ofthis reason.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
But we're getting rid of those assumptions and
getting back to.
Let's be curious and let's justexplore what's getting in the
way for you and then let me helpremove those roadblocks as much
as.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
I am able to.
That's such a good call out andI feel like, especially in a
nonprofit context, because yougenerally those teams are
running so lean they're runningyou know, there's not always
like an abundance of budget topay for additional staff and so
I feel like those regularcheck-ins are one of the first
thing that flies out the doorbecause everybody's running so
lean, they're running a thousandmiles a minute to get the
(08:35):
program done.
The internal structure of thatgets lost.
Yeah, yeah, is there so okay?
So let me ask it this way Isthere what's like the best?
Is there like a formula for howoften we should be checking in?
What's a good kind of rubricfor?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, there's no, it depends.
It depends.
Everybody's job is so different, um, everybody's roles are so
different, and so it reallydepends it's.
It can't be less than once amonth.
It should be at least once amonth okay every week is nice,
but also depends on the job andschedules and if you're working
shifts you might not see eachother all the time.
But I think gallup had a someresearch back in 2018, 2017 just
(09:22):
one check-in a month canincrease engagement by like 70%.
Wow.
So not even a one-to-one, noteven a meeting, just a check-in
like how are you, how's your daygoing?
That was their bar.
That most people don't even door can't do because of you know,
things are busy, we're flyingfrom place to place, we're just
(09:42):
in meetings all day or whatever,or we're out there in the field
doing the work, whatever itmight be Doing.
That one check-in is justhelpful once a month at least
just to see how things are going, and the more you can put in,
even better.
You can do it every other week.
If you can do a more formalevery other week, once a week,
that goes a long way just to see.
Then that helps you figure outare they on track or not?
(10:04):
Right, and you develop them ifthey want to grow, if they want
to enhance their career in someway.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I'm trying to envision.
You know, I've worked in a lotof different places, a lot of
different teams, a lot ofdifferent causes.
I can't imagine a workplacewhere people aren't checking in
with each other just to see howtheir day is going.
Like that's the fact, that'sthe bar.
Yeah, I feel like that is, man.
(10:35):
I just want us to do betterthan that.
Yeah, you'd be surprised yeahthat feels like the lowest
possible level of engagement, of, just like normal human
behavior.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Right wow, but if people are, you know, I think I
can certainly understand, right,if people have shift work, if
people are different shifts orif they're constantly out in the
field of some way and they havea big catchment area.
You know, let's say, la is a bigI'm just using it because it's
in the news, but it's a big city, right, it's huge, really huge.
You might not see somebody ifthey're constantly going to
(11:08):
schoolwork, if they're justvisiting schools all the time.
You really might not see themvery much physically, right.
So it's more incumbent on youto figure out how do I talk to
them, how do I initiate contact,or even if you're remote, if
I'm working in Texas and you'reworking in indiana, we got to
find ways to connect on aregular basis, even if we're
(11:28):
busy yeah, man, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So that's a great call out.
If you're not checking on yourpeople, it's very easy for some
of these situations to get aheadof you and you do not keep your
finger on the pulse.
So that's, I appreciate thatcall out.
I want to flip, maybe, to theother side, because I really
like the vision of your, theimage of your grid right, where
the goal is high support, butalso giving that feedback.
(11:56):
The opposite, though, it cannot.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe that total hands-off
micromanager, but what does itlook like when we are, or how do
we avoid, I guess, being sooverly supportive, like I would
(12:19):
think it's easy to get that gritout of whack, I guess, is what
I'm trying to say, but trying tostay in that top upper quadrant
, it's so easy, there's so manyother options.
So where do you see leadersfall?
Into other quadrants most often?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You know, I would say in the nonprofit space, truly,
they do give a lot of support.
I think that's not reallynecessarily an issue as much.
I think there's still issues.
But I think it's theaccountability, holding people
accountable, as you mentioned inthe beginning.
How do you hold peopleaccountable, right, when we're
so nice and we don't want tohurt people's feelings?
And it's the not holding themaccountable, giving them chance
after chance or taking on theirwork if they don't do it, if
(12:57):
they're late on it.
I'm just going to do their workand everybody just learns how to
work around this person as muchas possible and they're afraid
to go out, either afraid or theydon't know how to go through
the progressive disciplineprocess if things are not
working out.
But all those tools are therefor a reason.
You need to follow up, you needto give that feedback in the
moment, have those disciplinarycoaching conversations, but also
(13:20):
go through that progressivediscipline process If you need
to.
You need to escalate it becauseyou need to set boundaries and
guardrails right, otherwiseanybody can do whatever they
want.
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A lot of the folks in ourorganizations that are either
(14:25):
listening to the podcast or gocheck it out tend to be at, I
would say, organizations thatare kind of earlier on, right,
so they're sort of startups alot of younger organizations who
might not be in a place wherethose policies are in place,
something they've ever had tothink about because you know the
(14:46):
original.
When you think of anorganization like that, the
original staff, the founder, thefirst couple people on board
are so bought in and so likeexactly sold out to the mission,
that it's not until maybe youstart to grow and bring in maybe
the second or third wave ofpeople that we start to have
these.
So a lot of organizations wefind don't have discipline
policies in place.
They don't have an escalationprocedure in place, and so
(15:09):
things do get out of handbecause they don't know what to
do next.
So in your work, what does thatlook like?
What should that policy include?
How many chances do we givepeople?
What do we want to make surethat we have in place from the
jump so we always can go back toit?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I would say number one get an hr consultant.
If you're small, get somebody.
You know there's always goingto be some hr consultant within
your price range that can atleast help you set up some
policies, right?
Yeah, because you want to havethat.
But essentially the the overallstructure is you know, the
first line is something happens,they miss a deadline, they do
something incorrect orinappropriately, they're yelling
(15:45):
in a meeting or swearing at you.
That should be feedback,feedback, right?
Number one should be I'm givingyou this constructive feedback
and then from there, the nextescalation.
If it continues, then you'regiving that either a formal
warning or written warning ofsome sort.
And then, if it continues andthen, depending on your own
structure is then it'sseparation.
From that point on, okay, andit seems I know it seems harsh
(16:09):
because you're like it's a veryquick turnaround.
But yeah, again, you're, if youkeep allowing this behavior to
happen, right, there's a quotewhat you permit, you promote.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So the more you allow this behavior, you're not just
allowing it, you're actuallysaying to everybody else it's
okay to do this and I just Imean, I think this is one of
those scenarios where the impactof not taking action is
actually increasinglydetrimental to an organization,
right, not only does it can itharm the, the environment or the
(16:40):
culture of your organization,but if someone is consistently
I'm thinking, you know, we know,I know a lot of folks listening
, work in programs that aremaybe human services or working
with children, or there's a lotof things, that, a lot of
behaviors in that that arecompletely inappropriate and
unacceptable.
Right, and we can't allow thatto continue.
(17:01):
That's right or the wholeorganization is going to close.
So I think, yeah, inaction byitself is an action and it you
can take the whole organizationdown in one fell swoop that way
that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And I think what I also see is like some
organizations are hesitant to dothat because they might be
understaffed and they're like wecan't afford to lose a body
doing anywhere, even if it's,even if they're bad, even if
they're bringing us down.
Like we can't afford to lose abody doing anywhere, even if
it's, even if they're bad, evenif they're bringing us down.
Like we can't afford to lose aphysical body.
And you know you'll have tomake that choice.
Right, but it goes back to yourvalues also, right?
Like what kind of culture areyou trying to set, what kind of
(17:36):
organization you're trying tolead, and do the ends justify
the means?
You know that's.
That's the question everybodyhas to wrestle with.
Does it it matter how you getthere, or does it matter you
know what you do day to day?
You know, and we can arguephilosophically about that, but
that's going to be a decisionyou have to make as a leader and
as an organization.
Does the mission matter morethan how we get there?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
how some of the executive directors in our
audience that might be listeningto this episode, who, at least,
this is what this is how itworks for me.
I'll listen to an episode and Ithink, oh my gosh, I now see a
problem that I maybe didn't knowexisted or maybe I've been
ignoring if.
If that's the case, if theexecutive director is now
looking and saying, maybe someof those middle managers are not
(18:28):
pulling their weight to gettheir teams in line, how do we
model that behavior?
Or how does the leader changemiddle management behavior
appropriately to make sure thatthat trickles down all the way
through your organization?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, well, I think it's.
If you've never addressed itbefore, let's say you've let it
go on for a long time.
It starts with addressing andacknowledging that.
I think you can easily say noteasily, but you could just frame
it as I'm turning the cornerhere.
We've let things go on for along time.
I'm recognizing we need tochange.
I want us to you know this isthese are our values.
I want us to you know these areour values.
I want us to be able to do this, and it matters to me how our
(19:06):
culture is.
So let's work together from nowon.
Let's work.
Let's start with a blank slate.
Let's do this, and so everybodystart with a blank slate of
what's appropriate, what's notappropriate, and also clarifying
what happens if you do thesebehaviors.
So, if you were to do this,going forward, this is what's
going to happen.
These are the next steps.
You know, even if it's notsuper formal, you're a small
(19:27):
place, you don't have an hr team.
You could say if you, if thishappens again, we're going to
have a conversation, we're goingto have a coaching conversation
, we're going to have a you know, just a one-to-one about it
give some feedback and we'regoing to work on this and then
we're going to escalate it if itcontinues.
Right, but it's being clear onthat part.
I worked with a VP of a.
It was an international, likewine company and so for profit,
(19:49):
and she was having the sameproblem, right?
So this is a VP of a for-profitcompany, the same issue that
she has a senior director thatfor a year and a half was not
pulling his weight.
And just in our conversationshe was like I've been giving
him too many chances.
I don't know why I just keepsaying that I'll give him an
extra chance.
And she realized like she can'tlet it go on.
It's an hour, it's a year and ahalf.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
She needs to let him go because it was just dragging
everything down by him not doinghis job correctly and that's I
mean that's impact to the bottomline.
Yeah Right and we yeah rightand we can't.
And even in a non-profit right,we can't continue to let folks
impact to the bottom line,especially when resources are
already scarce and thin to beginwith right.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So, this executive director, you got to start
modeling it.
You got to start having theconversation, bringing it up on
a regular basis.
It's got to be ongoing and yougot to model it too, right?
So you got to be careful abouthow you're showing up, how
you're what you're saying, whatyou're not saying in front of
people and being clear, and ifsomething happens, then you have
to address it.
You got to show I'm beingserious about this or we're
(20:52):
being serious about this now.
So something's happened, nowwe're going to address it.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That I appreciate the call out and I think that
requires a level of humilitythat can sometimes feel
antithetical to the likeportrayal of a leader.
Right, we want to, we want tobe the we've got all the answers
.
But to say like, hey, I havebeen doing this wrong and we're
(21:20):
going to switch, we're going toflip the page, here's what we're
doing.
That requires we're going toflip the page, here's what we're
doing.
That requires a level ofhumility that can be really
tough in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It is.
I think that's the.
I find that a lot of leadersmistakenly think that to be a
leader, you need to be that hardcharging.
I'm confident, I'll never saysorry, I'll just do what I got
to do.
Yeah, you know, and there's alltypes of leaders you know.
That type of leader is reallyonly good in a crisis situation,
(21:50):
like if we're in a crisis, likeyou know, whatever's happening,
we need to have somebody makegood decisions, quick decisions
and it doesn't matter, right,like.
A good example is Rudy Giuliani, mayor of New York City during
9-11.
That type of leadership styleis really good for that type of
situation there's an urgentthing happening and we need to
fix it a crisis.
That type of leadership is notgood in regular times or every
(22:11):
other day life.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Right, just normal existence yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, and I think there was a study years ago
where they told a group ofparticipants your organization
in trouble and in crisis and youneed to fix it.
What are the qualities of aleader that you would want to
lead you through this?
And they listed all verystereotypically feminine
characteristics, right, likecaring, empathic, listening.
And then when they were given aresume the same exact resume,
(22:41):
one with a female name, one witha male name they overwhelmingly
chose the male resume becausethey still have that stereotype
in the head of they need like amasculine approach, even though
they all feel like they needthis caring, somebody listening
to us and understanding andempathic.
And so I think we all have thatbias in our head, or a lot of
people have that bias, but youjust have to be yourself as a
(23:04):
leader and it's okay to you know, be humble, be curious and
listen.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh, that could start me on a soapbox about all sorts
of things on the way that welook at male versus female
leadership that's right and howthose are.
Oh, I could get on on a wholedifferent.
That's a whole other episode,yeah, so, chris, tell me a
little bit what is your favoritepart of your work?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I love the light bulb moments of uh when people, when
we're working, when I'm workingwith somebody one-on-one, and
they suddenly say, oh, oh, whydidn't I think of this?
Oh, this makes total sense, whydon't I do this instead?
And the way I do it?
I'm not telling them the answer, right, but they've come to the
answer themselves and I lovethat transformation because it's
(23:55):
also a realization that theyhad the answer all along.
They knew how to do it, theyknew what to do.
We're just all stuck in theday-to-day life and we get
inundated with all theseemergencies, personal and
professional, and we're tryingto figure out how to filter all
that out.
We really have a lot Peoplehave the answers with themselves
a lot of the times, and so Ilove drawing that out and seeing
that transformation into beingsomebody who's like all right, I
(24:17):
know what to do now, as opposedto when we start, when they're
like I'm stuck, I have no ideawhat to do.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
This is terrible yeah , well, and I think because we
get so stuck in the you know,the forest for the trees, right,
we can't.
I'm so stuck in the day-to-daythat it's hard to take a step
back and see that bigger picture, so that has to be really
encouraging for you to watch.
Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, verygood.
And if somebody wanted to learnmore about you or connect with
(24:45):
you and learn more about thework that you do and the
services that you provide, howwould we do that?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
conversations where we talk about this a lot more.
But you'll find resources.
You'll find my newsletter.
If you want to listen, get myresources.
You can also get in contactwith me there, but and you can
also just find me on LinkedInChris Wong, lmhc.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I, so you and I are LinkedIn connected and I really
appreciate.
Is it Thursdays?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Where you talk about specific difficult conversations
.
Yeah, yeah, Really good,Because there's so many.
I feel like you know,especially as a leader.
There's so many conversationsthat that we get caught up in in
the course of a day or in thecourse of a week.
But there has yet to be onethat I've seen from you where
I'm like oh, my gosh, thatdoesn't apply to me at all.
(25:39):
Right, Every single one of themI can think about like, oh,
that's, that's really good.
I should have done that thelast time, but I know for next
time and here's how we'll do it.
So, yes, highly recommend goingto connect with Chris if, if
for no other reason than theThursday LinkedIn posts.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I appreciate that.
You know when I first startedthat I was like is anybody going
to care that I do?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
this on.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Thursdays?
I don't know, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, yeah, no, I really like it as a, as a series
, because I think, yeah, it'ssuper relatable.
If nothing else, it makes mesometimes feel better of like,
oh, I actually think I did.
I had a conversation similarand I handled it the right way
and, yes, I've had a little paton the back moment on occasion
oh nice, very encouraging,awesome thanks very good.
Uh so, chris, one of the thingsthat I've been doing on the
podcast this season as we wrapup, because this is has been a
(26:27):
crazy year for a lot ofnon-profits.
They're going through all sortsof stuff.
If you could give one piece ofadvice or wisdom to those
non-profit leaders, one piece ofencouragement, what would that
be?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
can I give two?
Absolutely, I would say, if youhaven't already, get into
mindfulness to use as a skill tojust calm yourself down and
keep yourself relaxed.
There's a person I I I followon linkedin, megan whitney.
She does a lot of stuff aroundmindfulness and preventing
burnout, but as a therapist, Ialso think it's a useful skill.
(27:01):
I teach it to everybody and Ithink it's just a useful skill,
especially especially whenyou're in a crisis, when things
feel like they're falling aroundyou.
You got to find ways to keepyourself calm and appropriate.
So I'd say, number one get intomindfulness, find ways to keep
yourself chill.
And I would say number two Iwas thinking about this all, I
couldn't think of anythingspecific.
(27:22):
But I would say number two justkeep trying, don't stop, keep
trying.
I think it's easy to feeloverwhelmed by everything and
it's never going to be onespecific person that's going to
change the world or change thefuture.
It's the culmination ofeverybody's efforts together.
(27:43):
So just keep trying, keep doingthe best you can.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I love that, chris, so good.
I really appreciate thisconversation.
I think it's not one we get tohave often for leaders, but I
think it's a really good one andI'm excited to have you speak
more about that at CauseCampcoming up this November.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
I went to Penn State, so I love.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, so I'm looking forward to being in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Fantastic, yeah.
So CauseCamp coming up November4th and 5th here in Pittsburgh.
Go ahead and get yourregistration in, because it did
sell out last year and we don'twant you to miss out on amazing
content from people like Chrisand from industry leaders across
the country.
So, yeah, excited to see you inperson there.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Very good, chris.
Thanks so much for joining usAgain.
My guest has been Chris Wong,who's a founder and executive
coach at Leadership Potential.
My name is Megan Spear and thishas been another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
Non-profits.
Are you ready to spend lesstime on paperwork and more time
making an impact?
Save big on Adobe Acrobat Pro,the leading PDF and e-signature
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Slash nonprofits, slash acrobat.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:24):
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Chris Wong, who
is the founder and executivecoach at Leadership Potential.
Chris is also going to be onthe main stage at CauseCamp this
year.
Really excited to dig into thatand have him here in Pittsburgh
.
Hoping you're planning to joinus for that as well, because, oh
my gosh, the lineup this yearis just fantastic.
(00:44):
I'm so excited about it, butreally excited to have Chris as
a part of it and to have him onthe podcast today.
Chris, welcome in.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Megan, thank you for having me.
I love chatting about thistopic and chatting on podcasts
in general.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, so fun.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour background what brought you
to this point here today, and alittle bit about Leadership
Potential.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
What brought you to this point here today and a
little bit about leadershippotential.
Yeah, I got my start as alicensed therapist and I was
working with adolescents withcomplex developmental trauma and
I love that work.
But I just got burned out.
So I moved into learning anddevelopment because I still
wanted to support people doingthe work.
I still wanted to stay involvedand from there I just loved.
I found a passion for trainingand coaching and helping other
people get better at doing whatthey're doing.
(01:25):
And then I moved into leadershipand organizational development
and I just fell in love with theidea of working on systems,
working on culture, working onbig, big items, big problems,
and then also helping leaders bebetter, because I was realizing
leaders are the main effect andcause of kind of everything in
the organization.
You have a strong leader, youcan have a strong team, you can
(01:47):
have a strong organization andyou can achieve your mission
better.
Essentially, that's all, and sothat's what I do on my own now
is I work with leaders who haveinherited dysfunctional teams
and organizations.
Purpose-driven leaders who wantto make a difference, but
they're just dealing withdysfunctional teams or teams
that are in conflict or chaos.
They need to turn things aroundand never more apparent than
(02:08):
now in our current climate inthe world.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, absolutely, and so that's really where we're
going to dig in today.
I know when you take the stageat CauseCamp, we're going to be
talking about how to have someof those difficult conversations
as a leader, and I'm going tomake an admission on the podcast
today that I've not made before, and that is I've held a lot of
leadership positions in my lifeover the course of my career,
(02:32):
but at my core I am a chronicpeople pleaser and I feel like
sometimes that makes theseconversations really hard.
And I see it so often innonprofit leaders, especially
where we want to be so nicebecause these folks are doing
like they're helping the mission, but maybe there there's some
(02:53):
poor performance or there's anissue or there's chaos, but at
the same time we know like theyare likely at a position where
you were before is being burnedout, they're probably not making
the money that they could makesomewhere else, and so we try to
be really nice and reallygracious and, I'll admit it,
sometimes it has been to thedetriment of my organization
(03:14):
because I wasn't willing to stepon toes, I wasn't willing to
have that uncomfortableconversation.
So let's talk about that.
What do we have to do ifsomebody is in my position
Because, I'm going to be honest,I think there's a lot more
people pleasers out there in theworld than not.
Nobody wants to make peopleuncomfortable.
(03:34):
Nobody wants to do that.
So if we are that, if somebodyis in my boat as the chronic
people pleaser but also inleadership my boat as the
chronic people pleaser but alsoin leadership how do we even
identify?
Like?
This is where we need to startto have those conversations.
If we find ourselves in that,how do we get over the people
pleasing hump?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Yeah, I think it starts with mindset, and this is
the example I use with lots ofdifferent leaders is do you have
kids yourself?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
I do.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I have one grown daughter okay, imagine your
daughter was back in middleschool, right?
Imagine she came to you andsaid hey, mom, I'm not gonna do
my math homework anymore, I justdon't really care about it and
I prefer to just focus on sports.
What would you say to her?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
oh, that's a no-go.
You gotta, yeah, you have.
You have to meet thoseresponsibilities.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Is it because you hate her that you're saying that
?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
No.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Is it because you're stepping in her dreams and you
don't want to pursue her dreamsor passions?
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, I want her to be successful and graduate
school and get into a goodcollege to pursue her future.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I think that's the mindset that we need to think
about when we think about havingany of these difficult
conversations.
Yes, you care about the peopleand that's the mindset that we
need to think about when wethink about having any of these
difficult conversations.
Yes, you care about the peopleand that's good.
You want to that.
That'll help you structure theconversation and say it in a way
that's caring, and not just meyelling at you or being
disrespectful to you, and alsorecognizing that you setting
boundaries.
Having the hard conversationcan come from a place of love,
(05:01):
because you care about theperson.
You want them to succeed, youwant them to do well, and so
it's not about being mean ormicromanaging or anything like
those things that people gethung up on.
It's about you care about them.
You want them to succeed, andthey can't succeed if you don't
give them that direction orguidance or that feedback, or
have that conversation aboutwhat's what they're missing or
(05:22):
how they're missing the mark.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It's interesting, I think, that you use the word
micromanage, because I thinkthat has gotten this connotation
lately, where nobody wants tobe, that no one wants to be the
micromanager, and we know thatnobody wants to feel as a grown
adult.
I don't want to feelmicromanaged either, and so I
think I almost wonder if we'veswung the pendulum too far away
(05:48):
from it, and is that maybecausing a lot of this?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, it happens a lot.
I coach one leader now whoshe's in a hospital system, and
she lost a person previouslybefore I started with her,
because she was so afraid ofmicromanaging she would let them
do whatever they wanted, andluckily this person did a great
job.
They were on point, they dideverything, but they eventually
left because they just keptasking what else should I be
doing, what else should I bedoing?
(06:12):
And she wouldn't give them anyguidance at all, and so he was
like I don't know what to doabout this, I'm just going to
leave.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah, okay, so let's put ourselves in that person's
shoes.
How do you course correct?
Because the image that's in myhead right now is that thing
that used to sit on everyone'sdesk, where you have the line of
swinging metal balls right andwe hit one and they all swing
this way, if we find ourselvesswinging too far, the natural
tendency is to swing all the wayback right.
(06:41):
So if we find ourselves in thatposition where we have let
something get out of control, wedidn't want to micromanage, so
everybody's kind of running amokand doing their own thing how
do we course correct withoutgoing to the opposite extreme?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, I think of a two by two grid of, and you have
one axis is accountability andone axis is support, and so you
want to give them maximumaccountability, but you also
want to give them maximumsupport, as they need it to get
to that point.
And so that's where regularcheck-ins help is.
You can course correct in themoment if they're missing the
mark, if they're not doingsomething, if they're behind on
(07:18):
something, and that's part ofthose coaching conversations.
It's not about why aren't youdoing this, it's more about
what's getting in the way.
Do you not have the skill, doyou not have the knowledge?
Do you not have the tools orthe resources?
And if any of these are missing, I can help you figure it out.
Right, let's say, this is yourfirst time in this kind of role.
You don't know how to do it.
I do need to show you how to doit.
(07:39):
I do need to either demonstrateit or teach you or have
somebody mentor you, all thosekinds of things.
But you won't know that unlessyou start having more regular
check-ins and get curious aboutwhat might be happening, because
I think a lot of times also, alot of us assume based upon our
own experiences.
This is why I struggled with it, or this is why I've seen
somebody else struggle with it,so I assume you must be
(07:59):
struggling with it because ofthis reason.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
But we're getting rid of those assumptions and
getting back to.
Let's be curious and let's justexplore what's getting in the
way for you and then let me helpremove those roadblocks as much
as.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
I am able to.
That's such a good call out andI feel like, especially in a
nonprofit context, because yougenerally those teams are
running so lean they're runningyou know, there's not always
like an abundance of budget topay for additional staff and so
I feel like those regularcheck-ins are one of the first
thing that flies out the doorbecause everybody's running so
lean, they're running a thousandmiles a minute to get the
(08:35):
program done.
The internal structure of thatgets lost.
Yeah, yeah, is there so okay?
So let me ask it this way Isthere what's like the best?
Is there like a formula for howoften we should be checking in?
What's a good kind of rubricfor?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, there's no, it depends.
It depends.
Everybody's job is so different, um, everybody's roles are so
different, and so it reallydepends it's.
It can't be less than once amonth.
It should be at least once amonth okay every week is nice,
but also depends on the job andschedules and if you're working
shifts you might not see eachother all the time.
But I think gallup had a someresearch back in 2018, 2017 just
(09:22):
one check-in a month canincrease engagement by like 70%.
Wow.
So not even a one-to-one, noteven a meeting, just a check-in
like how are you, how's your daygoing?
That was their bar.
That most people don't even door can't do because of you know,
things are busy, we're flyingfrom place to place, we're just
(09:42):
in meetings all day or whatever,or we're out there in the field
doing the work, whatever itmight be Doing.
That one check-in is justhelpful once a month at least
just to see how things are going, and the more you can put in,
even better.
You can do it every other week.
If you can do a more formalevery other week, once a week,
that goes a long way just to see.
Then that helps you figure outare they on track or not?
(10:04):
Right, and you develop them ifthey want to grow, if they want
to enhance their career in someway.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I'm trying to envision.
You know, I've worked in a lotof different places, a lot of
different teams, a lot ofdifferent causes.
I can't imagine a workplacewhere people aren't checking in
with each other just to see howtheir day is going.
Like that's the fact, that'sthe bar.
Yeah, I feel like that is, man.
(10:35):
I just want us to do betterthan that.
Yeah, you'd be surprised yeahthat feels like the lowest
possible level of engagement, of, just like normal human
behavior.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Right wow, but if people are, you know, I think I
can certainly understand, right,if people have shift work, if
people are different shifts orif they're constantly out in the
field of some way and they havea big catchment area.
You know, let's say, la is a bigI'm just using it because it's
in the news, but it's a big city, right, it's huge, really huge.
You might not see somebody ifthey're constantly going to
(11:08):
schoolwork, if they're justvisiting schools all the time.
You really might not see themvery much physically, right.
So it's more incumbent on youto figure out how do I talk to
them, how do I initiate contact,or even if you're remote, if
I'm working in Texas and you'reworking in indiana, we got to
find ways to connect on aregular basis, even if we're
(11:28):
busy yeah, man, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
So that's a great call out.
If you're not checking on yourpeople, it's very easy for some
of these situations to get aheadof you and you do not keep your
finger on the pulse.
So that's, I appreciate thatcall out.
I want to flip, maybe, to theother side, because I really
like the vision of your, theimage of your grid right, where
the goal is high support, butalso giving that feedback.
(11:56):
The opposite, though, it cannot.
It doesn't necessarily have tobe that total hands-off
micromanager, but what does itlook like when we are, or how do
we avoid, I guess, being sooverly supportive, like I would
(12:19):
think it's easy to get that gritout of whack, I guess, is what
I'm trying to say, but trying tostay in that top upper quadrant
, it's so easy, there's so manyother options.
So where do you see leadersfall?
Into other quadrants most often?
Speaker 2 (12:34):
You know, I would say in the nonprofit space, truly,
they do give a lot of support.
I think that's not reallynecessarily an issue as much.
I think there's still issues.
But I think it's theaccountability, holding people
accountable, as you mentioned inthe beginning.
How do you hold peopleaccountable, right, when we're
so nice and we don't want tohurt people's feelings?
And it's the not holding themaccountable, giving them chance
after chance or taking on theirwork if they don't do it, if
(12:57):
they're late on it.
I'm just going to do their workand everybody just learns how to
work around this person as muchas possible and they're afraid
to go out, either afraid or theydon't know how to go through
the progressive disciplineprocess if things are not
working out.
But all those tools are therefor a reason.
You need to follow up, you needto give that feedback in the
moment, have those disciplinarycoaching conversations, but also
(13:20):
go through that progressivediscipline process If you need
to.
You need to escalate it becauseyou need to set boundaries and
guardrails right, otherwiseanybody can do whatever they
want.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
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A lot of the folks in ourorganizations that are either
(14:25):
listening to the podcast or gocheck it out tend to be at, I
would say, organizations thatare kind of earlier on, right,
so they're sort of startups alot of younger organizations who
might not be in a place wherethose policies are in place,
something they've ever had tothink about because you know the
(14:46):
original.
When you think of anorganization like that, the
original staff, the founder, thefirst couple people on board
are so bought in and so likeexactly sold out to the mission,
that it's not until maybe youstart to grow and bring in maybe
the second or third wave ofpeople that we start to have
these.
So a lot of organizations wefind don't have discipline
policies in place.
They don't have an escalationprocedure in place, and so
(15:09):
things do get out of handbecause they don't know what to
do next.
So in your work, what does thatlook like?
What should that policy include?
How many chances do we givepeople?
What do we want to make surethat we have in place from the
jump so we always can go back toit?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I would say number one get an hr consultant.
If you're small, get somebody.
You know there's always goingto be some hr consultant within
your price range that can atleast help you set up some
policies, right?
Yeah, because you want to havethat.
But essentially the the overallstructure is you know, the
first line is something happens,they miss a deadline, they do
something incorrect orinappropriately, they're yelling
(15:45):
in a meeting or swearing at you.
That should be feedback,feedback, right?
Number one should be I'm givingyou this constructive feedback
and then from there, the nextescalation.
If it continues, then you'regiving that either a formal
warning or written warning ofsome sort.
And then, if it continues andthen, depending on your own
structure is then it'sseparation.
From that point on, okay, andit seems I know it seems harsh
(16:09):
because you're like it's a veryquick turnaround.
But yeah, again, you're, if youkeep allowing this behavior to
happen, right, there's a quotewhat you permit, you promote.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So the more you allow this behavior, you're not just
allowing it, you're actuallysaying to everybody else it's
okay to do this and I just Imean, I think this is one of
those scenarios where the impactof not taking action is
actually increasinglydetrimental to an organization,
right, not only does it can itharm the, the environment or the
(16:40):
culture of your organization,but if someone is consistently
I'm thinking, you know, we know,I know a lot of folks listening
, work in programs that aremaybe human services or working
with children, or there's a lotof things, that, a lot of
behaviors in that that arecompletely inappropriate and
unacceptable.
Right, and we can't allow thatto continue.
(17:01):
That's right or the wholeorganization is going to close.
So I think, yeah, inaction byitself is an action and it you
can take the whole organizationdown in one fell swoop that way
that's right.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
And I think what I also see is like some
organizations are hesitant to dothat because they might be
understaffed and they're like wecan't afford to lose a body
doing anywhere, even if it's,even if they're bad, even if
they're bringing us down.
Like we can't afford to lose abody doing anywhere, even if
it's, even if they're bad, evenif they're bringing us down.
Like we can't afford to lose aphysical body.
And you know you'll have tomake that choice.
Right, but it goes back to yourvalues also, right?
Like what kind of culture areyou trying to set, what kind of
(17:36):
organization you're trying tolead, and do the ends justify
the means?
You know that's.
That's the question everybodyhas to wrestle with.
Does it it matter how you getthere, or does it matter you
know what you do day to day?
You know, and we can arguephilosophically about that, but
that's going to be a decisionyou have to make as a leader and
as an organization.
Does the mission matter morethan how we get there?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
how some of the executive directors in our
audience that might be listeningto this episode, who, at least,
this is what this is how itworks for me.
I'll listen to an episode and Ithink, oh my gosh, I now see a
problem that I maybe didn't knowexisted or maybe I've been
ignoring if.
If that's the case, if theexecutive director is now
looking and saying, maybe someof those middle managers are not
(18:28):
pulling their weight to gettheir teams in line, how do we
model that behavior?
Or how does the leader changemiddle management behavior
appropriately to make sure thatthat trickles down all the way
through your organization?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, well, I think it's.
If you've never addressed itbefore, let's say you've let it
go on for a long time.
It starts with addressing andacknowledging that.
I think you can easily say noteasily, but you could just frame
it as I'm turning the cornerhere.
We've let things go on for along time.
I'm recognizing we need tochange.
I want us to you know this isthese are our values.
I want us to you know these areour values.
I want us to be able to do this, and it matters to me how our
(19:06):
culture is.
So let's work together from nowon.
Let's work.
Let's start with a blank slate.
Let's do this, and so everybodystart with a blank slate of
what's appropriate, what's notappropriate, and also clarifying
what happens if you do thesebehaviors.
So, if you were to do this,going forward, this is what's
going to happen.
These are the next steps.
You know, even if it's notsuper formal, you're a small
(19:27):
place, you don't have an hr team.
You could say if you, if thishappens again, we're going to
have a conversation, we're goingto have a coaching conversation
, we're going to have a you know, just a one-to-one about it
give some feedback and we'regoing to work on this and then
we're going to escalate it if itcontinues.
Right, but it's being clear onthat part.
I worked with a VP of a.
It was an international, likewine company and so for profit,
(19:49):
and she was having the sameproblem, right?
So this is a VP of a for-profitcompany, the same issue that
she has a senior director thatfor a year and a half was not
pulling his weight.
And just in our conversationshe was like I've been giving
him too many chances.
I don't know why I just keepsaying that I'll give him an
extra chance.
And she realized like she can'tlet it go on.
It's an hour, it's a year and ahalf.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
She needs to let him go because it was just dragging
everything down by him not doinghis job correctly and that's I
mean that's impact to the bottomline.
Yeah Right and we yeah rightand we can't.
And even in a non-profit right,we can't continue to let folks
impact to the bottom line,especially when resources are
already scarce and thin to beginwith right.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
So, this executive director, you got to start
modeling it.
You got to start having theconversation, bringing it up on
a regular basis.
It's got to be ongoing and yougot to model it too, right?
So you got to be careful abouthow you're showing up, how
you're what you're saying, whatyou're not saying in front of
people and being clear, and ifsomething happens, then you have
to address it.
You got to show I'm beingserious about this or we're
(20:52):
being serious about this now.
So something's happened, nowwe're going to address it.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
That I appreciate the call out and I think that
requires a level of humilitythat can sometimes feel
antithetical to the likeportrayal of a leader.
Right, we want to, we want tobe the we've got all the answers
.
But to say like, hey, I havebeen doing this wrong and we're
(21:20):
going to switch, we're going toflip the page, here's what we're
doing.
That requires we're going toflip the page, here's what we're
doing.
That requires a level ofhumility that can be really
tough in and of itself.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
It is.
I think that's the.
I find that a lot of leadersmistakenly think that to be a
leader, you need to be that hardcharging.
I'm confident, I'll never saysorry, I'll just do what I got
to do.
Yeah, you know, and there's alltypes of leaders you know.
That type of leader is reallyonly good in a crisis situation,
(21:50):
like if we're in a crisis, likeyou know, whatever's happening,
we need to have somebody makegood decisions, quick decisions
and it doesn't matter, right,like.
A good example is Rudy Giuliani, mayor of New York City during
9-11.
That type of leadership styleis really good for that type of
situation there's an urgentthing happening and we need to
fix it a crisis.
That type of leadership is notgood in regular times or every
(22:11):
other day life.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Right, just normal existence yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Yeah, and I think there was a study years ago
where they told a group ofparticipants your organization
in trouble and in crisis and youneed to fix it.
What are the qualities of aleader that you would want to
lead you through this?
And they listed all verystereotypically feminine
characteristics, right, likecaring, empathic, listening.
And then when they were given aresume the same exact resume,
(22:41):
one with a female name, one witha male name they overwhelmingly
chose the male resume becausethey still have that stereotype
in the head of they need like amasculine approach, even though
they all feel like they needthis caring, somebody listening
to us and understanding andempathic.
And so I think we all have thatbias in our head, or a lot of
people have that bias, but youjust have to be yourself as a
(23:04):
leader and it's okay to you know, be humble, be curious and
listen.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Oh, that could start me on a soapbox about all sorts
of things on the way that welook at male versus female
leadership that's right and howthose are.
Oh, I could get on on a wholedifferent.
That's a whole other episode,yeah, so, chris, tell me a
little bit what is your favoritepart of your work?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I love the light bulb moments of uh when people, when
we're working, when I'm workingwith somebody one-on-one, and
they suddenly say, oh, oh, whydidn't I think of this?
Oh, this makes total sense, whydon't I do this instead?
And the way I do it?
I'm not telling them the answer, right, but they've come to the
answer themselves and I lovethat transformation because it's
(23:55):
also a realization that theyhad the answer all along.
They knew how to do it, theyknew what to do.
We're just all stuck in theday-to-day life and we get
inundated with all theseemergencies, personal and
professional, and we're tryingto figure out how to filter all
that out.
We really have a lot Peoplehave the answers with themselves
a lot of the times, and so Ilove drawing that out and seeing
that transformation into beingsomebody who's like all right, I
(24:17):
know what to do now, as opposedto when we start, when they're
like I'm stuck, I have no ideawhat to do.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
This is terrible yeah , well, and I think because we
get so stuck in the you know,the forest for the trees, right,
we can't.
I'm so stuck in the day-to-daythat it's hard to take a step
back and see that bigger picture, so that has to be really
encouraging for you to watch.
Yes, exactly, yeah, yeah, verygood.
And if somebody wanted to learnmore about you or connect with
(24:45):
you and learn more about thework that you do and the
services that you provide, howwould we do that?
Speaker 2 (25:02):
conversations where we talk about this a lot more.
But you'll find resources.
You'll find my newsletter.
If you want to listen, get myresources.
You can also get in contactwith me there, but and you can
also just find me on LinkedInChris Wong, lmhc.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
I, so you and I are LinkedIn connected and I really
appreciate.
Is it Thursdays?
Speaker 2 (25:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Where you talk about specific difficult conversations
.
Yeah, yeah, Really good,Because there's so many.
I feel like you know,especially as a leader.
There's so many conversationsthat that we get caught up in in
the course of a day or in thecourse of a week.
But there has yet to be onethat I've seen from you where
I'm like oh, my gosh, thatdoesn't apply to me at all.
(25:39):
Right, Every single one of themI can think about like, oh,
that's, that's really good.
I should have done that thelast time, but I know for next
time and here's how we'll do it.
So, yes, highly recommend goingto connect with Chris if, if
for no other reason than theThursday LinkedIn posts.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I appreciate that.
You know when I first startedthat I was like is anybody going
to care that I do?
Speaker 1 (25:57):
this on.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Thursdays?
I don't know, we'll see.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, yeah, no, I really like it as a, as a series
, because I think, yeah, it'ssuper relatable.
If nothing else, it makes mesometimes feel better of like,
oh, I actually think I did.
I had a conversation similarand I handled it the right way
and, yes, I've had a little paton the back moment on occasion
oh nice, very encouraging,awesome thanks very good.
Uh so, chris, one of the thingsthat I've been doing on the
podcast this season as we wrapup, because this is has been a
(26:27):
crazy year for a lot ofnon-profits.
They're going through all sortsof stuff.
If you could give one piece ofadvice or wisdom to those
non-profit leaders, one piece ofencouragement, what would that
be?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
can I give two?
Absolutely, I would say, if youhaven't already, get into
mindfulness to use as a skill tojust calm yourself down and
keep yourself relaxed.
There's a person I I I followon linkedin, megan whitney.
She does a lot of stuff aroundmindfulness and preventing
burnout, but as a therapist, Ialso think it's a useful skill.
(27:01):
I teach it to everybody and Ithink it's just a useful skill,
especially especially whenyou're in a crisis, when things
feel like they're falling aroundyou.
You got to find ways to keepyourself calm and appropriate.
So I'd say, number one get intomindfulness, find ways to keep
yourself chill.
And I would say number two Iwas thinking about this all, I
couldn't think of anythingspecific.
(27:22):
But I would say number two justkeep trying, don't stop, keep
trying.
I think it's easy to feeloverwhelmed by everything and
it's never going to be onespecific person that's going to
change the world or change thefuture.
It's the culmination ofeverybody's efforts together.
(27:43):
So just keep trying, keep doingthe best you can.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
I love that, chris, so good.
I really appreciate thisconversation.
I think it's not one we get tohave often for leaders, but I
think it's a really good one andI'm excited to have you speak
more about that at CauseCampcoming up this November.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
I went to Penn State, so I love.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, so I'm looking forward to being in Pittsburgh.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Fantastic, yeah.
So CauseCamp coming up November4th and 5th here in Pittsburgh.
Go ahead and get yourregistration in, because it did
sell out last year and we don'twant you to miss out on amazing
content from people like Chrisand from industry leaders across
the country.
So, yeah, excited to see you inperson there.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Very good, chris.
Thanks so much for joining usAgain.
My guest has been Chris Wong,who's a founder and executive
coach at Leadership Potential.
My name is Megan Spear and thishas been another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
We'll see you next time.
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