September 12, 2025 • 34 mins
In a landscape where nonprofit burnout is rampant and mid-career professionals are vanishing from the sector, Kevin and Johanna from the Collaborative Collective bring urgently needed wisdom to address this talent crisis.
The financial stakes are higher than many realize. When a skilled nonprofit professional leaves, the replacement cost exceeds $30,000—not counting the immeasurable loss of relationships and institutional knowledge. Yet despite these sobering numbers, many organizations continue investing mere "pennies per day" in professional development, if anything at all.
"If I'm not willing to spend any time developing the team, and then I can't figure out why people keep leaving..." Johanna poses this challenging question that many leaders need to confront. The conversation reveals how even cash-strapped organizations can create environments where staff feel genuinely valued and invested in, often the deciding factor in retention despite lower compensation.
Perhaps most surprising is the revelation about artificial intelligence in nonprofits. Most organizations are operating in what Kevin calls "ghost mode"—staff using AI tools without guidance or oversight, potentially creating significant risks. "If you're not doing something already with AI, you need to be," Johanna emphasizes. The pair outlines practical approaches for developing sound AI policies that protect organizations while embracing innovation, including their affordable AI Policy Lab designed specifically for smaller nonprofits.
The conversation concludes with powerful advice on sustainability. "Don't let the work ruin you, because the work needs you," Johanna counsels, sharing her personal journey toward establishing boundaries around rest. This wisdom, combined with Kevin's reminder that human-centered nonprofit work "is never going away" despite technological disruption, offers both practical guidance and renewed hope for sector leaders.
Catch Kevin and Johanna's workshop at CauseCamp on November 4-5 in Pittsburgh to dive deeper into talent development strategies for your organization.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
(00:23):
I'm your host, megan Spear.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Kevin and
Johanna from the CollaborativeCollective, very excited to sit
down with them.
You will note that you couldfind both of their names on our
CauseCamp speaker list, so I'mreally excited to have them on
the podcast today, ahead ofCauseCamp, just to give everyone
kind of a taste and a littlepeek of what we're going to be
(00:45):
doing at CauseCamp this fall.
So, kevin and Johanna, welcomein.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thanks, it's good to be here.
It's been good to hang out,megan, and even chat a little
bit.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So good, johanna, why don't you start and tell us a
little bit about yourself as anintroduction to the audience?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Sure, so my name is Johanna.
I am currently with theCollaborative Collective as a
lead consultant, and then I alsohave been working in different
nonprofits for about 15 years atthis point, worked in national
and hyperlocal contexts, ran acommunity center and have done
lots, worn lots of differenthats in there.
(01:19):
So I fundraised, I've managedgrants, I've run programs.
I fundraised, I've managedgrants, I've run programs and
really just am passionate aboutseeing good people making a
difference in the world andgiving them the tools they need.
Because these are the people Iwant at the forefront of
innovation, of decision making,because I know these are people
whose hearts are really there toserve others and to make the
(01:41):
world a better place.
So they're the ones that I wantto be in those rooms and
feeling equipped for the longhaul.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
That's great.
And Kevin, how about you?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, it's good to be with you, megan.
I'm in Portland and have beenserving with the Collaborative
Collective since its founding.
Johanna and I put this suckertogether and we've been serving
nonprofits since early 2024.
Johanna is that when it kind ofgot birthed.
Yeah, but before that I grew upin Michigan and started working
(02:12):
in nonprofits right out ofcollege and kind of fell in love
with the notion of communityservice and bringing business
operations and HR and innovationskills into that space.
You know I always loved thedirect community service aspect
but the needs and theoperational sort of leadership
space were really evident andreally needed when I entered
(02:33):
back in oh gosh, I'm going todate myself here back in like
2006.
And then I moved to the WestCoast.
Now I live up in Portland,oregon, and I have been a
nonprofit executive for gosh thelast 10 years before founding
the Collective and workedprogram roles in a national
(02:54):
organization before that.
The altruistic nature ofserving communities, especially
youth, and helping nonprofitsfigure out how do we run
smoothly and efficiently so wecan be good stewards and
ultimately not necessarily bemore lean but actually do more
(03:15):
good direct in the community,and that's really been sort of
the bread and butter of myleadership and what we love to
focus on at the Collective.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I love it, that's great.
Leadership and what we love tofocus on at the Collective I
love it, that's great.
So I'm excited for this episodebecause I feel like it's a
really great bridge where wewrapped up a series in July on
Nonprofit 101, kind of focusingin on those first-time nonprofit
leaders, those first-timefundraisers and really getting
back to basics.
But then it bridges reallynicely to what you guys are
especially talking about atCauseCamp bridges really nicely
to what you guys are especiallytalking about at CauseCamp
(03:46):
bridges really nicely to thatnext level and that is looking
at managing talent and growingtalent within an organization.
We all know nonprofit burnoutis for real and we know that
there's kind of a oh man.
There's such a gap in themiddle because people are
burning out so quickly that wedon't have a lot of long-time
(04:08):
tenured around anymore, whichcan be really hard for an
organization.
So I'm excited that you guysare going to dig into that a
little bit more at CauseCampitself.
But, kevin, let's start with you.
I'm curious.
So when we talk about like amid-level leader define that,
let's all, let's start from thesame page.
And why let's talk about like amid-level leader define that,
let's all.
Let's start from the same pageand why.
Let's talk about why that'ssuch a critical role within
(04:29):
nonprofit.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, I love this, megan, and thanks for bringing
it up, and I'm so lookingforward to being with you all in
Pittsburgh at Cause Camp.
It's going to be a good timeand plan on eating some good
food and hanging out with greatpeople.
But one of the reasons why wedo spend some time focused on
what we like to call mid-careerinstead of mid-level
professionals because sometimesyou can be in the middle of your
(04:54):
career and be a very seniorleader or you can be an
entry-level leader just enteringinto the nonprofit space.
But we really like to focus inon those that are kind of in the
middle of their career.
Maybe they've been in anonprofit for three, four, five
years and maybe pushing intothat seven-year mark and they're
starting to be like where am Igoing?
What am I doing?
I'm exhausted.
What's professional developmentlook like?
(05:16):
Do I want to be an executive?
Am I aspiring to something?
Do I want to stay right whereI'm at?
Is the nonprofit space even forme anymore?
There's just a middle ground.
That's often really difficultand unique in the nonprofit
sector.
That's a little bit differentthan the corporate world, larger
organizations, where yourcareer path is very, very clear
(05:38):
and you just kind of work ituntil you retire and you do the
best you can.
And so we really like to workwith those folks because, a
we're relational and B we'vebeen there and C we can help
folks get through it.
And one of the reasons we talkso much about it is because the
cost of hiring and replacinggood, experienced nonprofit
(06:00):
leaders is so expensive I thinkin the corporate world like the
stat I most recently read issomething around $30,000 to
basically replace an employee,the cost of, like lost
experience, the cost ofrecruiting, and then you know
the cost to train them and getthem back up to speed.
I honestly wonder if it's morein the nonprofit space, because
(06:22):
the work that we do is so uniqueand nuanced and human centric
and those skills are so hard tofind these days that it's one of
the reasons we love to talk tosenior leadership about the
importance of retention withthose mid-career professionals,
because if you can hold on tothem, you're effectively raising
dollars for your organizationby keeping them, because if
(06:44):
you're losing them, if you'returning over 30% of your
mid-career workforce, you'relosing a lot of human capital
but also real dollars, in myopinion.
So we spend a lot of time thereand we focus on what are your
aspirations?
Where do you want to go?
How do we get you the skills tobe there?
And then, how do we shift theparadigm of which people think
(07:08):
of a typical career path andactually open up new definitions
for growth, longevity andtenure for those mid-level
career folks and I just saidmid-level, so I need to put $5
in the You're going to put it inthe jar.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
That's a really.
I think that's a great point.
I think it's interesting tothink about that investment
because, you're right, we don't.
It's hard to quantify that, tosay what it would look like in a
nonprofit space, but, johanna,I'm curious to hear your
thoughts here because,especially in a nonprofit world,
(07:45):
you've been there, you've runthe nonprofit itself.
Right, there are 17 fires allof the time, yeah, and you are
constantly having to serve theconstituents in which you're
overseeing and serving.
I would assume that it's notintentional.
We're not intentionally notdeveloping people, right?
(08:07):
Is it a tyranny of the urgent,where we just don't, or is it
like a?
Is it a cultural thing that hasto get changed?
Do you know what I mean?
I think it's interesting tothink about like in the grand
scheme of like we need to feedthe homeless people, or I need
to send this guy to a conferencefor some professional
development.
It's hard to justify that inthe grand scheme of like we need
to feed the homeless people orI need to send this guy to a
conference for some professionaldevelopment.
It's hard to justify that inthe nonprofit context.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I think.
I think it is and it isn'tright.
So on the one hand, yes, youknow there's a parent that shows
up and needs housing and you'relike, I'm supposed to go be
part of a cohort training for anhour on zoom, Like right, you
know that.
Yes, that's very real.
But I also think that there'sdefinitely the problem is, then
(08:55):
we start to lean on that as thereason we don't do it and we
don't budget for it.
And I think, and I really think, the budget is where it lies.
So when I would develop budgetsfor professional development, I
would break it down into whatwas it going to cost per staff
person per day, and I think alot of nonprofits that they
(09:16):
looked at.
Here's how much we're spendingon professional development for
our whole team in a year, and wedivide that by the people on
our team and then we divide itby 365, or, if you want to do,
you know, subtracting weekends,250-ish.
You're going to be potentiallyspending pennies, if not less
than pennies, and so then wehave to really take a hard look
(09:37):
in the mirror and say, okay, soif I'm not willing to spend any
time developing the team, andthen I can't figure out why
people keep leaving is it?
Are we sacrificing these urgentneeds at the expense of
actually meeting the long-termneeds of the team and help make?
Helping to make our servicesmore efficient, more effective,
(10:00):
so that we aren't always puttingout fires?
Right, Like I think about whenI got my start as a teacher with
a large national nonprofit, andwhen I think about my first
year of teaching.
Versus I am married to a teacher.
He's in his 15th year ofteaching, right, your first year
of teaching.
You are staying in theclassroom, you know 10 hours a
(10:22):
day.
Sometimes it feels like becauseyou don't know what you're
doing and you have to figure itout.
Versus now my partner is aseasoned teacher and he's out
the door at three o'clock,partly because he's got to pick
up our kids, but also because heknows what he's doing.
Now he's got systems in place.
Things that used to take him,you know, days and weeks to do.
He can get done in a half hour,and so I think in the nonprofit
(10:43):
space, we have to think aboutit that way too.
Like, do you want to still beputting out this fire 20 years
from now Because every yearyou've had a new person in the
role, because you can't keepanybody, or do you want to start
investing $1 per day per teammember in some kind of and maybe
that's team professionaldevelopment?
I think that was one thing anonprofit I was part of for over
(11:06):
a decade did really well wasthat there were conferences, and
it wasn't just we're going tosend Johanna to this conference,
it's we're going to send all ofour team members who want to go
to this conference.
That was a huge expense but itmeant that our team felt like we
were developed professionallyand connected to each other
personally.
So that just developed a reallystrong team that worked well
(11:28):
together, that felt like theywere invested in and we had low
salaries.
We had almost no benefits, butwe had really low turnover at
that organization and I wouldcredit a huge part of that with
people felt like they wereinvested in and that they had a
team that cared about them.
And I'll just say from personalexperience, I am shocked at
(11:49):
what I will stay for.
If I feel like I'm valuedpersonally and I'm invested in,
I'll stay for very little for avery long time if those people
are met.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So to that point, because weall know nonprofit professionals
are not getting paid anywherenear what they should be, right.
But also I'm wondering what itlooks like and, kevin, I'd love
to hear your thoughts on this asa start to the conversation.
One conference a year and youget that.
(12:28):
I'm wondering if that's let methink of how to phrase that
right?
So when I was in middle school,we would go on these youth
group retreats and so once ayear you would have this amazing
mountaintop experience andeverybody loves each other and
everything is wonderful.
And then we'd come home andlike, two or three weeks later
that may not have happened andnone of those dynamics continue,
right?
So is there what does thatbalance look like?
(12:50):
Or is there some insight youhave on the like yes, woohoo,
we're super investing to sendeverybody to a conference,
versus we're doing little thingsthroughout the year to keep
that going.
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's a complex question toobecause there's no, you know,
one size answer.
Are you a smaller organization?
Are you a bigger organization?
Who is the employee that you'redealing with, right?
Are they a brand new employee?
Have they been around for awhile?
Are they an executive?
What are they motivated by?
Right?
All of those questions come intothe space of retention and
(13:27):
development and creating reallyvibrant cultures that are
healthy and do great service,work through the nonprofit and
get after the mission right offthe start and nonprofits almost
always were confronting societalissues that there's no bottom
(13:48):
to the amount of good we coulddo.
So there's no end to thequestion of, well, I could do
one more good thing or I couldinvest in my people.
That one good thing will alwaysbe there.
So at some point, as seniorleaders, they've got to
recognize and have thediscipline to say my mission
(14:09):
isn't just about doing one morething, it's also about building
a sustainable environment whereour team can not only do those
good things but grow over timeand be more effective and
efficient at it as good stewardsof our resources.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And so that's the beginning of it.
But then you have to start tonuance and you know as a team,
your whole staff I hope you'rebudgeting to go to at least one
conference a year.
Altogether those are goodmountaintop experiences.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
But if you're a brand new employee ultimately like
maybe go to CauseCamp.
Causecamp would be an excellentrecommendation, cause camp
would be an excellentrecommendation, right.
But it's like kind of the tipof the iceberg, like if you're
not at least doing that, likeokay, start there.
But really what we want you todo is start to nuance between,
okay, what do entry level staffneed?
They need mentorship, they needopportunities, they need the
ability to take a stretchassignment and grow a bit.
(15:13):
But then you have to start tolook at you know, what are their
motivations?
Are they motivated by salary?
Are they motivated by benefits?
Is it, you know, some sort oflike I solved a big problem for
the organization that's going tohelp move them into that
mid-career zone.
And then you start talkingabout mid-career folks.
What do they need and how do weretain them, how do we develop
(15:34):
them, which is a very differentquestion than entry-level staff.
It's one of the reasons why welaunched a program called the
Aspire Cohorts, in the mix withother career folks who aren't
(15:55):
part of their organization, sothat they can start to be honest
about the challenges thatthey're facing and couple that
with their aspirations andmutually together point out
areas where they could grow anddevelop and also like be
encouraged by the good work thatthey are doing, and oftentimes
we see tremendous breakthroughin that space.
And people you know, sometimesthey go on space.
And people you know, sometimesthey go on and do different
things.
Sometimes they go I really dowant to be an executive here and
(16:18):
they learn to start to askbetter questions and lead in new
ways.
Anyways, I'll stop there.
I know I'm going long, megan,but at the end of the day, it's
a complex question, but as asenior leader of an organization
, you have to be willing to hitthe pause button and say what
exactly am I building here?
And is it about the staff thatwe employ?
(16:39):
Because one of the things thatwe focus on a lot is AI these
days and I know we're going totalk about that in a minute and
in the for-profit sector, jobsare being lost because of the
advancements in technology.
The nonprofit space is not likethat.
As there's technologybreakthrough, we become more
efficient, right, but that justmeans we can do more good, and
(17:02):
so jobs aren't being lost, andthe better you can be at
retaining your people with humanskills, the more effective your
mission is going to be in thelong run and the more a better
steward you're going to be.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
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You bring up an interestingpoint because we are seeing, on
(18:08):
the for-profit side, a lot ofthose entry-level jobs being
taken away due to AI.
The nice part of nonprofit iswe're not seeing that at the
moment.
Right, because what we do is sohuman-centric.
There's not an AI robot, forexample, serving meals at a soup
kitchen, right?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Thank God.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yes, that's a weird day if that ever happens, right.
But I also don't think thatthis is the AI revolution, is
not something that we can stickour head in the sand over and
assume it's never going toimpact us, or that we don't need
it or that we shouldn't embraceit.
So where, if it's not in thetaking of entry level jobs,
(18:51):
where are you seeing it rightnow?
Or where should we be payingattention to it?
I go, oh sorry.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Kevin.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
No.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I just want to say, if nonprofits are not investing
time and energy in looking atthe development, especially, of
generative AI tools, so when we?
Ai encompasses a lot of things,but I think most of the time
right now when we're talkingabout it, we're talking about
the chat, gpts, the clods, theperplexity, all these different
platforms.
Gemini is another big one.
(19:21):
If you're not doing somethingalready, you need to be.
I spend a lot of time workingwith folks in the for-profit
tech sector and like at theintersection of non-profit and
it is moving so quickly and, um,I know kevin and I have had
experiences supporting folks inlike really creative industry,
(19:44):
non-profit, like arts andwriting and different things and
folks are saying you know wehate those tools and I totally
understand.
But I also kind of think thisis like when email was
introduced like you could hateemail for a long time.
You could say I love the postoffice, I like my fax machine, I
like interoffice mail, I don'tlike this email stuff and that's
(20:05):
fine, but it's not.
It didn't go away.
And I feel that way about thesegen AI tools at this point Like
you can hate them all you want,that's totally fine.
They're not going anywhere andso you want to at least be.
If they're your enemy, knowyour enemy.
But hopefully you can also seeways to what Kevin was saying to
adopt them to make your workbetter and to make your team
(20:28):
better.
And again what I said earlier,I also want nonprofit people to
be adopting them because we aregoing to use them with that
ethical lens and a lot of spacesright now are lacking that lens
because they're concerned aboutgenerating profit and the
nonprofit people are going to bethe ones that raise their hands
and say, hey, this isproblematic and so we need more
people like that in the space.
(20:49):
So I'm sorry, I just had Kevin,I had to get two cents in about
that.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
No, I like the soapbox.
I'm here for it.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Me too.
I'm like keep going, johanna,three more.
No.
But, megan, it's an interestingpoint, and you know you
mentioned AI, but neither ofmyself nor Johanna we're not,
you know, coders.
You know we're not softwareengineers or whatever the you,
whatever the fancy titles are.
We're truly like nonprofitexecutives who are focused on
(21:18):
the operations in HR space,really helping missions, sort of
innovate for the future.
And we have to talk about thisbecause AI is in everything
folks do.
It's not a matter of if, likeemail, even like you kind of had
to turn it on in yourorganization for it to actually
(21:40):
make an impact.
Ai is literally turning on inevery digital system that we
have right now.
And so people who look at me inthe eye and say, oh no, our
organization isn't using AI, I'mlike, well, that's a nice
thought, but you are, you justdon't know it.
And then they start to go, ohwell, yeah, we have this cool AI
(22:02):
agent or we're using GPT andwe're, you know, folks are doing
all sorts of things.
And I go, oh so how are youmanaging risk in that space?
And they go, oh, I neverthought about that.
And it's becoming this a littlebit of a monster.
And so executives come to us andsay how do I get ahead?
Like I can't keep up, like thespace is evolving so quickly.
(22:25):
And they're right it is.
I mean, we can't really keep upeither.
We don't try, but what we dowant to do is create safe spaces
for people to use, experiment,figure out how does this make
our mission better and theorganization can go.
Maybe it's not under control,but we've got our arms around it
(22:45):
and we're doing the best we canto be equitable leaders who are
keeping our mission safe, andthat's generally through really
good and sound policy that'sbuilt for innovation.
So it's one of the key servicesthat we're offering, and when
executives hear that, they go ohyeah, we need that, but it
(23:06):
takes a minute, and so you know,right now there's most
organizations and nonprofitsthat we call they're in ghost
mode.
Right now, there's mostorganizations and nonprofits
that we call they're in ghostmode.
Staff are using it and they'renot saying anything about it.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Like even especially in education, like there's
almost like the shame factor ineducation, like, oh, don't use
AI.
It means like somehow yourintelligence is lesser, you know
, and when you're teaching astudent we've got to be
thoughtful about the use of AI,but there's this shame built in
so people don't talk about itand so there's no learning going
on through mutuality and like,hey, I made this mistake, I hope
(23:42):
no one else makes it.
Right, let's share thatinformation.
That's not happening, which isreally what we want to encourage
.
And when we can match policywith co-learning and we insert
introduce like responsibility,we actually get to an aligned
innovation where we're allmoving together for the mission
in the same direction.
So, anyways, that's what wespend a lot of time talking
(24:04):
about.
Yeah, with nonprofits and AI.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah, that's great, I think.
So I got asked recently to siton a one of the local colleges
here in Pittsburgh was putting acommission together where they
brought business leaders in totalk with faculty about what it
looks like to prepare a studentfor an AI-based workforce and
how do we help them be preparedfor that.
(24:28):
And to your point, I think theacademics were all like, well,
we don't want them using it, wedon't want to do this, we don't
want to do this, we don't wantto do that.
I'm like, listen, they're goingto use it.
It's already like that's anestablished fact.
What I need you to do is teachthem how to think.
To Johanna's point right, Ineed you to think ethically
about how we use it and come atit with that lens.
(24:51):
I can teach them to, andwhatever platforms we need them
to do, I can do that.
What I can't do is teachsomebody to think and think well
about it, and so I think that'sa really important piece of
this conversation that you justbrought up there.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
I think that's a big gap we're seeing now.
And to Kevin's point like thatin the nonprofit space, like
let's talk about, like staffretention, right, yeah, you have
a new staff person who you'vehired to follow up with leads or
to follow up with leads infundraising, and they're using
ChatGPT, but they don't have thecontext for your organization
(25:27):
yet.
They don't have all thatknowledge and maybe they also
don't know how to use thesetools in a thoughtful way.
They could be sending outemails that are damaging your
organizational reputation.
And again back to if you'rejust head in the sand, like I
don't wanna think about, I don'twanna think about these tools,
it could be doing a lot moreharm.
But if you're actively trainingyour team, talking about it
(25:48):
modeling, this is what anexcellent email would look like.
This is what a not great emailwould look like.
Or if you've got seasoned staffwho know the difference and can
use the tool effectively tofaster generate emails, but then
they can also look at it andsay, oh no, we would never send
that to the United Way.
They would totally reject that.
Or, oh, this sounds way toocorporate for our voice.
(26:09):
We need to change it.
So, yeah, it takes a lot ofthought and, to Kevin's point,
it's not really about trying tokeep up with it, but how do you
engage with it thoughtfully?
And that trickles down toencouraging your team to be
thoughtful, and then thattrickles into thoughtful
training.
And that's really where we wantto help, kind of the direction
we want to point people in.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, that's great.
So if, if the executivedirectors, if the senior leaders
who are listening to thispodcast right now are going oh
yeah, we have no such policy, wehave no plan.
Maybe my head like I can seepeople sitting in their car
being like, yep, it's me, myhead is in the sand.
I, you know I'm the problem.
It's me.
How would they?
What's the best way to connectwith you all to get some answers
(26:52):
around that or find out how toto be doing it better?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Can I just say if that is you, you're not alone,
you're right?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
No, for sure, you are not alone.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
We get you?
Yeah, we get you, but likehere's an option, here's a
solution.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
How would they?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
best connect with you guys.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
We love that question and, first of all, like we
would want people to know likeat the heart of it we're
relational people, like we'renot computer geeks and we just
love to like help encouragenonprofit leaders and like move
forward and innovate so thattheir missions can remain really
effective and relevant in theircommunities.
And so one of the things thatwe do is work with organizations
(27:33):
specifically on policy, and oneof the things that we're
noticing is that the need inthis space cuts across all sizes
of organizations.
Whether you're a very largeorganization or a very small
organization, you need this workand support.
And so we put a little bit of adividing line at $10 million in
annual revenue or above.
(27:55):
Like we want to work with youone-on-one.
Your needs are going to be alittle bit more complex your
training needs, developmentneeds, etc.
So if you're in that bucket,reach out to us.
We'll set up a one-on-one,we'll figure out a pathway for
you.
Generally, investments that aregoing to start at about 30 000
and then move up.
So it's a bigger investment,but you've got a bigger
footprint.
You've got more complex needsto think about.
(28:16):
Underneath that, the needs arestill very, very real and
prevalent and they don't havethose kinds of resources to
invest, to just create a policyand create the world in which AI
can actually be an innovationtool that helps them align and
move their mission forward.
So we did create a new lab.
(28:36):
We're calling it the AI PolicyLab and it's specifically
designed for smallerorganizations under 10 million
in annual revenue.
It's 2,500 bucks for six monthsand literally we walk you
through the process of like whateven is AI?
How do we establish a baselinefoundation for your organization
?
How do we create that sense oftraining, that safety?
(28:57):
We build a policy together, weget it through board approval
and then we walk through rollingit out with your organization
so that people move out of thatghost mode and they actually
start talking together.
So we actually start toinnovate our mission, but we do
it safely.
So if people want to jump intothe policy lab, we're actually
launching one in September.
(29:17):
We only have a few seats left,so we would love to fill it with
nonprofit hub folk.
That would be really, reallyfun.
So if they want that, they canhead to our website or just
reach out to us.
We'll get them hooked up, butit's a really cost-effective way
for them to get ahead of thisand not just control it, but
actually use it to reallyadvance their mission.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, that's great, and we'll link to your website
in the show notes too, so ifsomeone wants to check it out,
they can get that.
Okay, so it's hard to believe,but we're wrapping up our
conversational time here.
The question that I've beenasking everyone so far this year
on this season of Nonprofit HubRadio is if you could give one
piece of wisdom, encouragement,advice, counsel, etc.
(30:01):
Toa nonprofit leader right now.
Obviously it's been kind of atough year to be, not that
nonprofit is ever easy, but thisyear has presented some really
interesting challenges for a lotof folks.
So if you could pass along thatone piece of wisdom or
encouragement, what would thatbe?
Kevin, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, Thanks for the question.
It has been a tough year, butlet's also tell the truth the
last many years have been reallychallenging and full of
disruption.
It feels like disruption is theworld that we live in today.
It's every day, and one of theways that I love to encourage
nonprofit leaders and I reallywant them to hear is that the
(30:40):
need for nonprofit service andthat sense of human connection
and meeting mutual needs incommunity.
It's never going to go away.
No technology is going toreplace that.
At the end of the day, we'reall just people with neighbors,
and are we going to wake upevery morning and try to take
care of each other and solveeach other's problems?
That's what we're doing in thisspace, and so, just as a word
(31:03):
of encouragement is don't giveup.
Disruption is going to keephappening, but the need for your
mission and your work is justgoing to continue to grow in
importance, and it's going tocontinue to need people, and so
just keep on keeping on and thedisruptions will never end.
Probably, yeah, but so justkeep on keeping on and the
disruptions will never end.
Probably.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
But we can keep caring for each other.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I love that, Johanna.
How about you?
I do too.
That was so good.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I wish I got that first yeah, no pressure, you're
good.
Yeah, exactly no, the thingthat comes to my mind.
So when I was a teacher, I dida teacher training program in
the summer and I had a personwho was like two years ahead of
me in the program, who wasleading a small group of us, and
(31:52):
I remember she told us you needto take Saturdays off.
There will always be somethingyou could do for your classroom.
There will always be one moreactivity you could make, one
more item you could grade.
So you have to be the one todecide when you're going to like
take the time off.
And because we were teachers,we recommended Saturdays.
So for the years that I taught,I did that really well.
(32:13):
And then I got in the nonprofit, community-based space and I
was doing stuff on the weekendsall the time, because that's
when my students had the mostavailability the families, all
of that.
And it was probably like fiveyears later that I realized like
I just had no good boundaries,and so I repeatedly had this
idea of like Sabbath and weeklyrest was coming up in lots of
(32:36):
different places for me, and soI remember at the time I said I
could not do 24 hours.
That's insane.
So I'm just going to do likesix, like basically Sundays,
like afternoon evening I can.
I'll just not do any work then.
And then that was really good,it was really restorative.
And so six hours became 12hours and then 12 hours became
(32:58):
24, because I do sleep, so we'lljust always count those in
there.
And so I would just I would saythat to folks wherever you are
like, figure out what thatintentional rest for you looks
like and just what Mecca shoutout to Mecca Smith, the woman
who said that to me so manyyears ago like you have to be
the one to decide, because, toKevin's point, there's so much
(33:19):
good work, to be the one todecide, because, to Kevin's
point, there's so much good workto be done.
And so that would be theencouragement I would give to
you is don't let the work ruinyou, because the work needs you.
And so, into that end, like youdecide when you're going to
rest and then just do it and beamazed and maybe, like me,
humbled to see that thingscontinue just fine if I take 24
hours off every week, becausethat's also very humbling to my
(33:42):
ego.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So good.
Well, guys, thank you so muchfor being here.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, you can definitely
catch more of Johanna and Kevin.
They will be speaking on aworkshop track at Cause Camp
coming up November 4th and 5thin Pittsburgh.
Super excited to have themthere and to have them share
more wisdom with our group here.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
(34:06):
Podcast.
My name's Megan Spear and we'llsee you next time.
Non-profits.
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making an impact?
Save big on Adobe Acrobat Pro,the leading PDF and e-signature
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Slash acrobat.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
(00:23):
I'm your host, megan Spear.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Kevin and
Johanna from the CollaborativeCollective, very excited to sit
down with them.
You will note that you couldfind both of their names on our
CauseCamp speaker list, so I'mreally excited to have them on
the podcast today, ahead ofCauseCamp, just to give everyone
kind of a taste and a littlepeek of what we're going to be
(00:45):
doing at CauseCamp this fall.
So, kevin and Johanna, welcomein.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Thanks, it's good to be here.
It's been good to hang out,megan, and even chat a little
bit.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
So good, johanna, why don't you start and tell us a
little bit about yourself as anintroduction to the audience?
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Sure, so my name is Johanna.
I am currently with theCollaborative Collective as a
lead consultant, and then I alsohave been working in different
nonprofits for about 15 years atthis point, worked in national
and hyperlocal contexts, ran acommunity center and have done
lots, worn lots of differenthats in there.
(01:19):
So I fundraised, I've managedgrants, I've run programs.
I fundraised, I've managedgrants, I've run programs and
really just am passionate aboutseeing good people making a
difference in the world andgiving them the tools they need.
Because these are the people Iwant at the forefront of
innovation, of decision making,because I know these are people
whose hearts are really there toserve others and to make the
(01:41):
world a better place.
So they're the ones that I wantto be in those rooms and
feeling equipped for the longhaul.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
That's great.
And Kevin, how about you?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, it's good to be with you, megan.
I'm in Portland and have beenserving with the Collaborative
Collective since its founding.
Johanna and I put this suckertogether and we've been serving
nonprofits since early 2024.
Johanna is that when it kind ofgot birthed.
Yeah, but before that I grew upin Michigan and started working
(02:12):
in nonprofits right out ofcollege and kind of fell in love
with the notion of communityservice and bringing business
operations and HR and innovationskills into that space.
You know I always loved thedirect community service aspect
but the needs and theoperational sort of leadership
space were really evident andreally needed when I entered
(02:33):
back in oh gosh, I'm going todate myself here back in like
2006.
And then I moved to the WestCoast.
Now I live up in Portland,oregon, and I have been a
nonprofit executive for gosh thelast 10 years before founding
the Collective and workedprogram roles in a national
(02:54):
organization before that.
The altruistic nature ofserving communities, especially
youth, and helping nonprofitsfigure out how do we run
smoothly and efficiently so wecan be good stewards and
ultimately not necessarily bemore lean but actually do more
(03:15):
good direct in the community,and that's really been sort of
the bread and butter of myleadership and what we love to
focus on at the Collective.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
I love it, that's great.
Leadership and what we love tofocus on at the Collective I
love it, that's great.
So I'm excited for this episodebecause I feel like it's a
really great bridge where wewrapped up a series in July on
Nonprofit 101, kind of focusingin on those first-time nonprofit
leaders, those first-timefundraisers and really getting
back to basics.
But then it bridges reallynicely to what you guys are
especially talking about atCauseCamp bridges really nicely
to what you guys are especiallytalking about at CauseCamp
(03:46):
bridges really nicely to thatnext level and that is looking
at managing talent and growingtalent within an organization.
We all know nonprofit burnoutis for real and we know that
there's kind of a oh man.
There's such a gap in themiddle because people are
burning out so quickly that wedon't have a lot of long-time
(04:08):
tenured around anymore, whichcan be really hard for an
organization.
So I'm excited that you guysare going to dig into that a
little bit more at CauseCampitself.
But, kevin, let's start with you.
I'm curious.
So when we talk about like amid-level leader define that,
let's all, let's start from thesame page.
And why let's talk about like amid-level leader define that,
let's all.
Let's start from the same pageand why.
Let's talk about why that'ssuch a critical role within
(04:29):
nonprofit.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah, I love this, megan, and thanks for bringing
it up, and I'm so lookingforward to being with you all in
Pittsburgh at Cause Camp.
It's going to be a good timeand plan on eating some good
food and hanging out with greatpeople.
But one of the reasons why wedo spend some time focused on
what we like to call mid-careerinstead of mid-level
professionals because sometimesyou can be in the middle of your
(04:54):
career and be a very seniorleader or you can be an
entry-level leader just enteringinto the nonprofit space.
But we really like to focus inon those that are kind of in the
middle of their career.
Maybe they've been in anonprofit for three, four, five
years and maybe pushing intothat seven-year mark and they're
starting to be like where am Igoing?
What am I doing?
I'm exhausted.
What's professional developmentlook like?
(05:16):
Do I want to be an executive?
Am I aspiring to something?
Do I want to stay right whereI'm at?
Is the nonprofit space even forme anymore?
There's just a middle ground.
That's often really difficultand unique in the nonprofit
sector.
That's a little bit differentthan the corporate world, larger
organizations, where yourcareer path is very, very clear
(05:38):
and you just kind of work ituntil you retire and you do the
best you can.
And so we really like to workwith those folks because, a
we're relational and B we'vebeen there and C we can help
folks get through it.
And one of the reasons we talkso much about it is because the
cost of hiring and replacinggood, experienced nonprofit
(06:00):
leaders is so expensive I thinkin the corporate world like the
stat I most recently read issomething around $30,000 to
basically replace an employee,the cost of, like lost
experience, the cost ofrecruiting, and then you know
the cost to train them and getthem back up to speed.
I honestly wonder if it's morein the nonprofit space, because
(06:22):
the work that we do is so uniqueand nuanced and human centric
and those skills are so hard tofind these days that it's one of
the reasons we love to talk tosenior leadership about the
importance of retention withthose mid-career professionals,
because if you can hold on tothem, you're effectively raising
dollars for your organizationby keeping them, because if
(06:44):
you're losing them, if you'returning over 30% of your
mid-career workforce, you'relosing a lot of human capital
but also real dollars, in myopinion.
So we spend a lot of time thereand we focus on what are your
aspirations?
Where do you want to go?
How do we get you the skills tobe there?
And then, how do we shift theparadigm of which people think
(07:08):
of a typical career path andactually open up new definitions
for growth, longevity andtenure for those mid-level
career folks and I just saidmid-level, so I need to put $5
in the You're going to put it inthe jar.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
That's a really.
I think that's a great point.
I think it's interesting tothink about that investment
because, you're right, we don't.
It's hard to quantify that, tosay what it would look like in a
nonprofit space, but, johanna,I'm curious to hear your
thoughts here because,especially in a nonprofit world,
(07:45):
you've been there, you've runthe nonprofit itself.
Right, there are 17 fires allof the time, yeah, and you are
constantly having to serve theconstituents in which you're
overseeing and serving.
I would assume that it's notintentional.
We're not intentionally notdeveloping people, right?
(08:07):
Is it a tyranny of the urgent,where we just don't, or is it
like a?
Is it a cultural thing that hasto get changed?
Do you know what I mean?
I think it's interesting tothink about like in the grand
scheme of like we need to feedthe homeless people, or I need
to send this guy to a conferencefor some professional
development.
It's hard to justify that inthe grand scheme of like we need
to feed the homeless people orI need to send this guy to a
conference for some professionaldevelopment.
It's hard to justify that inthe nonprofit context.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I think.
I think it is and it isn'tright.
So on the one hand, yes, youknow there's a parent that shows
up and needs housing and you'relike, I'm supposed to go be
part of a cohort training for anhour on zoom, Like right, you
know that.
Yes, that's very real.
But I also think that there'sdefinitely the problem is, then
(08:55):
we start to lean on that as thereason we don't do it and we
don't budget for it.
And I think, and I really think, the budget is where it lies.
So when I would develop budgetsfor professional development, I
would break it down into whatwas it going to cost per staff
person per day, and I think alot of nonprofits that they
(09:16):
looked at.
Here's how much we're spendingon professional development for
our whole team in a year, and wedivide that by the people on
our team and then we divide itby 365, or, if you want to do,
you know, subtracting weekends,250-ish.
You're going to be potentiallyspending pennies, if not less
than pennies, and so then wehave to really take a hard look
(09:37):
in the mirror and say, okay, soif I'm not willing to spend any
time developing the team, andthen I can't figure out why
people keep leaving is it?
Are we sacrificing these urgentneeds at the expense of
actually meeting the long-termneeds of the team and help make?
Helping to make our servicesmore efficient, more effective,
(10:00):
so that we aren't always puttingout fires?
Right, Like I think about whenI got my start as a teacher with
a large national nonprofit, andwhen I think about my first
year of teaching.
Versus I am married to a teacher.
He's in his 15th year ofteaching, right, your first year
of teaching.
You are staying in theclassroom, you know 10 hours a
(10:22):
day.
Sometimes it feels like becauseyou don't know what you're
doing and you have to figure itout.
Versus now my partner is aseasoned teacher and he's out
the door at three o'clock,partly because he's got to pick
up our kids, but also because heknows what he's doing.
Now he's got systems in place.
Things that used to take him,you know, days and weeks to do.
He can get done in a half hour,and so I think in the nonprofit
(10:43):
space, we have to think aboutit that way too.
Like, do you want to still beputting out this fire 20 years
from now Because every yearyou've had a new person in the
role, because you can't keepanybody, or do you want to start
investing $1 per day per teammember in some kind of and maybe
that's team professionaldevelopment?
I think that was one thing anonprofit I was part of for over
(11:06):
a decade did really well wasthat there were conferences, and
it wasn't just we're going tosend Johanna to this conference,
it's we're going to send all ofour team members who want to go
to this conference.
That was a huge expense but itmeant that our team felt like we
were developed professionallyand connected to each other
personally.
So that just developed a reallystrong team that worked well
(11:28):
together, that felt like theywere invested in and we had low
salaries.
We had almost no benefits, butwe had really low turnover at
that organization and I wouldcredit a huge part of that with
people felt like they wereinvested in and that they had a
team that cared about them.
And I'll just say from personalexperience, I am shocked at
(11:49):
what I will stay for.
If I feel like I'm valuedpersonally and I'm invested in,
I'll stay for very little for avery long time if those people
are met.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So to that point, because weall know nonprofit professionals
are not getting paid anywherenear what they should be, right.
But also I'm wondering what itlooks like and, kevin, I'd love
to hear your thoughts on this asa start to the conversation.
One conference a year and youget that.
(12:28):
I'm wondering if that's let methink of how to phrase that
right?
So when I was in middle school,we would go on these youth
group retreats and so once ayear you would have this amazing
mountaintop experience andeverybody loves each other and
everything is wonderful.
And then we'd come home andlike, two or three weeks later
that may not have happened andnone of those dynamics continue,
right?
So is there what does thatbalance look like?
(12:50):
Or is there some insight youhave on the like yes, woohoo,
we're super investing to sendeverybody to a conference,
versus we're doing little thingsthroughout the year to keep
that going.
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Yeah, it's a great question.
It's a complex question toobecause there's no, you know,
one size answer.
Are you a smaller organization?
Are you a bigger organization?
Who is the employee that you'redealing with, right?
Are they a brand new employee?
Have they been around for awhile?
Are they an executive?
What are they motivated by?
Right?
All of those questions come intothe space of retention and
(13:27):
development and creating reallyvibrant cultures that are
healthy and do great service,work through the nonprofit and
get after the mission right offthe start and nonprofits almost
always were confronting societalissues that there's no bottom
(13:48):
to the amount of good we coulddo.
So there's no end to thequestion of, well, I could do
one more good thing or I couldinvest in my people.
That one good thing will alwaysbe there.
So at some point, as seniorleaders, they've got to
recognize and have thediscipline to say my mission
(14:09):
isn't just about doing one morething, it's also about building
a sustainable environment whereour team can not only do those
good things but grow over timeand be more effective and
efficient at it as good stewardsof our resources.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And so that's the beginning of it.
But then you have to start tonuance and you know as a team,
your whole staff I hope you'rebudgeting to go to at least one
conference a year.
Altogether those are goodmountaintop experiences.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
But if you're a brand new employee ultimately like
maybe go to CauseCamp.
Causecamp would be an excellentrecommendation, cause camp
would be an excellentrecommendation, right.
But it's like kind of the tipof the iceberg, like if you're
not at least doing that, likeokay, start there.
But really what we want you todo is start to nuance between,
okay, what do entry level staffneed?
They need mentorship, they needopportunities, they need the
ability to take a stretchassignment and grow a bit.
(15:13):
But then you have to start tolook at you know, what are their
motivations?
Are they motivated by salary?
Are they motivated by benefits?
Is it, you know, some sort oflike I solved a big problem for
the organization that's going tohelp move them into that
mid-career zone.
And then you start talkingabout mid-career folks.
What do they need and how do weretain them, how do we develop
(15:34):
them, which is a very differentquestion than entry-level staff.
It's one of the reasons why welaunched a program called the
Aspire Cohorts, in the mix withother career folks who aren't
(15:55):
part of their organization, sothat they can start to be honest
about the challenges thatthey're facing and couple that
with their aspirations andmutually together point out
areas where they could grow anddevelop and also like be
encouraged by the good work thatthey are doing, and oftentimes
we see tremendous breakthroughin that space.
And people you know, sometimesthey go on space.
And people you know, sometimesthey go on and do different
things.
Sometimes they go I really dowant to be an executive here and
(16:18):
they learn to start to askbetter questions and lead in new
ways.
Anyways, I'll stop there.
I know I'm going long, megan,but at the end of the day, it's
a complex question, but as asenior leader of an organization
, you have to be willing to hitthe pause button and say what
exactly am I building here?
And is it about the staff thatwe employ?
(16:39):
Because one of the things thatwe focus on a lot is AI these
days and I know we're going totalk about that in a minute and
in the for-profit sector, jobsare being lost because of the
advancements in technology.
The nonprofit space is not likethat.
As there's technologybreakthrough, we become more
efficient, right, but that justmeans we can do more good, and
(17:02):
so jobs aren't being lost, andthe better you can be at
retaining your people with humanskills, the more effective your
mission is going to be in thelong run and the more a better
steward you're going to be.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
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(17:40):
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You bring up an interestingpoint because we are seeing, on
(18:08):
the for-profit side, a lot ofthose entry-level jobs being
taken away due to AI.
The nice part of nonprofit iswe're not seeing that at the
moment.
Right, because what we do is sohuman-centric.
There's not an AI robot, forexample, serving meals at a soup
kitchen, right?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Thank God.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Yes, that's a weird day if that ever happens, right.
But I also don't think thatthis is the AI revolution, is
not something that we can stickour head in the sand over and
assume it's never going toimpact us, or that we don't need
it or that we shouldn't embraceit.
So where, if it's not in thetaking of entry level jobs,
(18:51):
where are you seeing it rightnow?
Or where should we be payingattention to it?
I go, oh sorry.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Kevin.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
No.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
I just want to say, if nonprofits are not investing
time and energy in looking atthe development, especially, of
generative AI tools, so when we?
Ai encompasses a lot of things,but I think most of the time
right now when we're talkingabout it, we're talking about
the chat, gpts, the clods, theperplexity, all these different
platforms.
Gemini is another big one.
(19:21):
If you're not doing somethingalready, you need to be.
I spend a lot of time workingwith folks in the for-profit
tech sector and like at theintersection of non-profit and
it is moving so quickly and, um,I know kevin and I have had
experiences supporting folks inlike really creative industry,
(19:44):
non-profit, like arts andwriting and different things and
folks are saying you know wehate those tools and I totally
understand.
But I also kind of think thisis like when email was
introduced like you could hateemail for a long time.
You could say I love the postoffice, I like my fax machine, I
like interoffice mail, I don'tlike this email stuff and that's
(20:05):
fine, but it's not.
It didn't go away.
And I feel that way about thesegen AI tools at this point Like
you can hate them all you want,that's totally fine.
They're not going anywhere andso you want to at least be.
If they're your enemy, knowyour enemy.
But hopefully you can also seeways to what Kevin was saying to
adopt them to make your workbetter and to make your team
(20:28):
better.
And again what I said earlier,I also want nonprofit people to
be adopting them because we aregoing to use them with that
ethical lens and a lot of spacesright now are lacking that lens
because they're concerned aboutgenerating profit and the
nonprofit people are going to bethe ones that raise their hands
and say, hey, this isproblematic and so we need more
people like that in the space.
(20:49):
So I'm sorry, I just had Kevin,I had to get two cents in about
that.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
No, I like the soapbox.
I'm here for it.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Me too.
I'm like keep going, johanna,three more.
No.
But, megan, it's an interestingpoint, and you know you
mentioned AI, but neither ofmyself nor Johanna we're not,
you know, coders.
You know we're not softwareengineers or whatever the you,
whatever the fancy titles are.
We're truly like nonprofitexecutives who are focused on
(21:18):
the operations in HR space,really helping missions, sort of
innovate for the future.
And we have to talk about thisbecause AI is in everything
folks do.
It's not a matter of if, likeemail, even like you kind of had
to turn it on in yourorganization for it to actually
(21:40):
make an impact.
Ai is literally turning on inevery digital system that we
have right now.
And so people who look at me inthe eye and say, oh no, our
organization isn't using AI, I'mlike, well, that's a nice
thought, but you are, you justdon't know it.
And then they start to go, ohwell, yeah, we have this cool AI
(22:02):
agent or we're using GPT andwe're, you know, folks are doing
all sorts of things.
And I go, oh so how are youmanaging risk in that space?
And they go, oh, I neverthought about that.
And it's becoming this a littlebit of a monster.
And so executives come to us andsay how do I get ahead?
Like I can't keep up, like thespace is evolving so quickly.
(22:25):
And they're right it is.
I mean, we can't really keep upeither.
We don't try, but what we dowant to do is create safe spaces
for people to use, experiment,figure out how does this make
our mission better and theorganization can go.
Maybe it's not under control,but we've got our arms around it
(22:45):
and we're doing the best we canto be equitable leaders who are
keeping our mission safe, andthat's generally through really
good and sound policy that'sbuilt for innovation.
So it's one of the key servicesthat we're offering, and when
executives hear that, they go ohyeah, we need that, but it
(23:06):
takes a minute, and so you know,right now there's most
organizations and nonprofitsthat we call they're in ghost
mode.
Right now, there's mostorganizations and nonprofits
that we call they're in ghostmode.
Staff are using it and they'renot saying anything about it.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Like even especially in education, like there's
almost like the shame factor ineducation, like, oh, don't use
AI.
It means like somehow yourintelligence is lesser, you know
, and when you're teaching astudent we've got to be
thoughtful about the use of AI,but there's this shame built in
so people don't talk about itand so there's no learning going
on through mutuality and like,hey, I made this mistake, I hope
(23:42):
no one else makes it.
Right, let's share thatinformation.
That's not happening, which isreally what we want to encourage
.
And when we can match policywith co-learning and we insert
introduce like responsibility,we actually get to an aligned
innovation where we're allmoving together for the mission
in the same direction.
So, anyways, that's what wespend a lot of time talking
(24:04):
about.
Yeah, with nonprofits and AI.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Yeah, that's great, I think.
So I got asked recently to siton a one of the local colleges
here in Pittsburgh was putting acommission together where they
brought business leaders in totalk with faculty about what it
looks like to prepare a studentfor an AI-based workforce and
how do we help them be preparedfor that.
(24:28):
And to your point, I think theacademics were all like, well,
we don't want them using it, wedon't want to do this, we don't
want to do this, we don't wantto do that.
I'm like, listen, they're goingto use it.
It's already like that's anestablished fact.
What I need you to do is teachthem how to think.
To Johanna's point right, Ineed you to think ethically
about how we use it and come atit with that lens.
(24:51):
I can teach them to, andwhatever platforms we need them
to do, I can do that.
What I can't do is teachsomebody to think and think well
about it, and so I think that'sa really important piece of
this conversation that you justbrought up there.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
I think that's a big gap we're seeing now.
And to Kevin's point like thatin the nonprofit space, like
let's talk about, like staffretention, right, yeah, you have
a new staff person who you'vehired to follow up with leads or
to follow up with leads infundraising, and they're using
ChatGPT, but they don't have thecontext for your organization
(25:27):
yet.
They don't have all thatknowledge and maybe they also
don't know how to use thesetools in a thoughtful way.
They could be sending outemails that are damaging your
organizational reputation.
And again back to if you'rejust head in the sand, like I
don't wanna think about, I don'twanna think about these tools,
it could be doing a lot moreharm.
But if you're actively trainingyour team, talking about it
(25:48):
modeling, this is what anexcellent email would look like.
This is what a not great emailwould look like.
Or if you've got seasoned staffwho know the difference and can
use the tool effectively tofaster generate emails, but then
they can also look at it andsay, oh no, we would never send
that to the United Way.
They would totally reject that.
Or, oh, this sounds way toocorporate for our voice.
(26:09):
We need to change it.
So, yeah, it takes a lot ofthought and, to Kevin's point,
it's not really about trying tokeep up with it, but how do you
engage with it thoughtfully?
And that trickles down toencouraging your team to be
thoughtful, and then thattrickles into thoughtful
training.
And that's really where we wantto help, kind of the direction
we want to point people in.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yeah, that's great.
So if, if the executivedirectors, if the senior leaders
who are listening to thispodcast right now are going oh
yeah, we have no such policy, wehave no plan.
Maybe my head like I can seepeople sitting in their car
being like, yep, it's me, myhead is in the sand.
I, you know I'm the problem.
It's me.
How would they?
What's the best way to connectwith you all to get some answers
(26:52):
around that or find out how toto be doing it better?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Can I just say if that is you, you're not alone,
you're right?
Speaker 1 (26:58):
No, for sure, you are not alone.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
We get you?
Yeah, we get you, but likehere's an option, here's a
solution.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
How would they?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
best connect with you guys.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
We love that question and, first of all, like we
would want people to know likeat the heart of it we're
relational people, like we'renot computer geeks and we just
love to like help encouragenonprofit leaders and like move
forward and innovate so thattheir missions can remain really
effective and relevant in theircommunities.
And so one of the things thatwe do is work with organizations
(27:33):
specifically on policy, and oneof the things that we're
noticing is that the need inthis space cuts across all sizes
of organizations.
Whether you're a very largeorganization or a very small
organization, you need this workand support.
And so we put a little bit of adividing line at $10 million in
annual revenue or above.
(27:55):
Like we want to work with youone-on-one.
Your needs are going to be alittle bit more complex your
training needs, developmentneeds, etc.
So if you're in that bucket,reach out to us.
We'll set up a one-on-one,we'll figure out a pathway for
you.
Generally, investments that aregoing to start at about 30 000
and then move up.
So it's a bigger investment,but you've got a bigger
footprint.
You've got more complex needsto think about.
(28:16):
Underneath that, the needs arestill very, very real and
prevalent and they don't havethose kinds of resources to
invest, to just create a policyand create the world in which AI
can actually be an innovationtool that helps them align and
move their mission forward.
So we did create a new lab.
(28:36):
We're calling it the AI PolicyLab and it's specifically
designed for smallerorganizations under 10 million
in annual revenue.
It's 2,500 bucks for six monthsand literally we walk you
through the process of like whateven is AI?
How do we establish a baselinefoundation for your organization
?
How do we create that sense oftraining, that safety?
(28:57):
We build a policy together, weget it through board approval
and then we walk through rollingit out with your organization
so that people move out of thatghost mode and they actually
start talking together.
So we actually start toinnovate our mission, but we do
it safely.
So if people want to jump intothe policy lab, we're actually
launching one in September.
(29:17):
We only have a few seats left,so we would love to fill it with
nonprofit hub folk.
That would be really, reallyfun.
So if they want that, they canhead to our website or just
reach out to us.
We'll get them hooked up, butit's a really cost-effective way
for them to get ahead of thisand not just control it, but
actually use it to reallyadvance their mission.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, that's great, and we'll link to your website
in the show notes too, so ifsomeone wants to check it out,
they can get that.
Okay, so it's hard to believe,but we're wrapping up our
conversational time here.
The question that I've beenasking everyone so far this year
on this season of Nonprofit HubRadio is if you could give one
piece of wisdom, encouragement,advice, counsel, etc.
(30:01):
Toa nonprofit leader right now.
Obviously it's been kind of atough year to be, not that
nonprofit is ever easy, but thisyear has presented some really
interesting challenges for a lotof folks.
So if you could pass along thatone piece of wisdom or
encouragement, what would thatbe?
Kevin, we'll start with you.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, Thanks for the question.
It has been a tough year, butlet's also tell the truth the
last many years have been reallychallenging and full of
disruption.
It feels like disruption is theworld that we live in today.
It's every day, and one of theways that I love to encourage
nonprofit leaders and I reallywant them to hear is that the
(30:40):
need for nonprofit service andthat sense of human connection
and meeting mutual needs incommunity.
It's never going to go away.
No technology is going toreplace that.
At the end of the day, we'reall just people with neighbors,
and are we going to wake upevery morning and try to take
care of each other and solveeach other's problems?
That's what we're doing in thisspace, and so, just as a word
(31:03):
of encouragement is don't giveup.
Disruption is going to keephappening, but the need for your
mission and your work is justgoing to continue to grow in
importance, and it's going tocontinue to need people, and so
just keep on keeping on and thedisruptions will never end.
Probably, yeah, but so justkeep on keeping on and the
disruptions will never end.
Probably.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
But we can keep caring for each other.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
I love that, Johanna.
How about you?
I do too.
That was so good.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I wish I got that first yeah, no pressure, you're
good.
Yeah, exactly no, the thingthat comes to my mind.
So when I was a teacher, I dida teacher training program in
the summer and I had a personwho was like two years ahead of
me in the program, who wasleading a small group of us, and
(31:52):
I remember she told us you needto take Saturdays off.
There will always be somethingyou could do for your classroom.
There will always be one moreactivity you could make, one
more item you could grade.
So you have to be the one todecide when you're going to like
take the time off.
And because we were teachers,we recommended Saturdays.
So for the years that I taught,I did that really well.
(32:13):
And then I got in the nonprofit, community-based space and I
was doing stuff on the weekendsall the time, because that's
when my students had the mostavailability the families, all
of that.
And it was probably like fiveyears later that I realized like
I just had no good boundaries,and so I repeatedly had this
idea of like Sabbath and weeklyrest was coming up in lots of
(32:36):
different places for me, and soI remember at the time I said I
could not do 24 hours.
That's insane.
So I'm just going to do likesix, like basically Sundays,
like afternoon evening I can.
I'll just not do any work then.
And then that was really good,it was really restorative.
And so six hours became 12hours and then 12 hours became
(32:58):
24, because I do sleep, so we'lljust always count those in
there.
And so I would just I would saythat to folks wherever you are
like, figure out what thatintentional rest for you looks
like and just what Mecca shoutout to Mecca Smith, the woman
who said that to me so manyyears ago like you have to be
the one to decide, because, toKevin's point, there's so much
(33:19):
good work, to be the one todecide, because, to Kevin's
point, there's so much good workto be done.
And so that would be theencouragement I would give to
you is don't let the work ruinyou, because the work needs you.
And so, into that end, like youdecide when you're going to
rest and then just do it and beamazed and maybe, like me,
humbled to see that thingscontinue just fine if I take 24
hours off every week, becausethat's also very humbling to my
(33:42):
ego.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
So good.
Well, guys, thank you so muchfor being here.
If you enjoyed thisconversation, you can definitely
catch more of Johanna and Kevin.
They will be speaking on aworkshop track at Cause Camp
coming up November 4th and 5thin Pittsburgh.
Super excited to have themthere and to have them share
more wisdom with our group here.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
(34:06):
Podcast.
My name's Megan Spear and we'llsee you next time.
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