February 28, 2025 • 28 mins
Ever wondered how a theater major transitions into a powerhouse in nonprofit management? Join me, Meghan Speer, as I chat with Abigayle Tobia, a seasoned nonprofit consultant, who has faced the complex world of nonprofit fundraising and leadership with resilience and creativity. From the pressures of unpredictable funding to the emotional toll on professionals, our conversation uncovers the gritty realities and profound rewards of nonprofit work. We delve into the shifts in leadership post-COVID-19 and the need for empathetic leadership and competitive salaries to keep nonprofit teams thriving and committed. Abigayle and I challenge outdated perceptions and advocate for strategic investment in organizational infrastructure, drawing parallels with successful practices in the for-profit world.
Abigayle Tobia is a nonprofit leader and fundraising strategist with over 20 years of experience securing major gifts and driving mission impact. She specializes in aligning donor visions with organizational needs, leading high-performing teams, and implementing innovative fundraising strategies.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Non-profit professionals are motivated to
make a difference, but theminutia of non-profit operations
can get in the way of themeaningful work you set out to
do.
That's where MonkeyPod comes in.
Monkeypod helps non-profits getback to their mission by
eliminating busy work.
Their all-in-one softwareincludes a CRM, non-profit
accounting, email marketing,online fundraising and grant
(00:23):
management.
Non-profit Hub listeners canget 15% off the first year of a
MonkeyPod subscription byvisiting monkeypodio slash
nonprofithub.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome back to another episode of the Nonprofit
Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear,excited to dive into a
conversation today with AbigailTobia, who is a nonprofit
consultant, has years anddecades of this not decades,
that sounds, I mean, it'sprobably fair to say, but I
don't want to.
I don't want to age you in theprocess, but just so much wisdom
(00:56):
and so much experience in thenonprofit space, so really
excited to have you joining ustoday.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate the invitation,Megan.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Absolutely so.
To that end, paint a picturefor us, give me a little bit of
insight and give the audience alittle bit of insight into kind
of who you are and your journeyin the nonprofit space.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Sure.
So I started as anundergraduate in social work and
focused on youth developmentand then started looking at grad
school and I thought my careerpath would be to be an executive
director.
That's what I thought was outthere.
I actually started college as atheater major and really
enjoyed kind of the stagemanagement perspective and I got
(01:36):
assigned to a show of theTempest and I went to my advisor
and I said I can't do thisrehearsal schedule.
I do Girl Scouts for a troopthat's rural and underserved and
I have to use my lunch hour togo and be their troop leader.
And she very calmly looked atme.
She goes if your volunteer workis interfering with your
ability to be in the theater,perhaps you need a new major.
(01:58):
And so that was my.
I have a theater minor onlybecause I made it through like
two semesters before they saidyour volunteer work, your
community work, is interferingwith your education.
So I decided a major that wasmore compatible with my desire
to be engaged in the community.
I mean, that's a true nonprofitheart right there.
Yeah, so I went to the socialwork department and thankfully
(02:22):
they welcomed me there, thesocial work department and
thankfully they welcomed methere.
And so after my undergraduate Iwas looking at grad schools and
I found a really greatnonprofit management program
through Regis University and I'mgoing through and I'm thinking
that I'm taking classes and I'mthinking I'm going to be an
executive director and Irealized that everyone needs a
fundraiser and the fundraisingdidn't intimidate me.
(02:42):
So my capstone was on plannedgiving.
I studied fundraising andthat's been my career path in
nonprofits.
I make a really good teammember at that top level and
being able to connect resourcesand programs and clinical and
all the different parts of anonprofit with the passions of
our donors yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I love that that well .
I am excited because definitelythat experience is going to
come into play in ourconversation today.
As we have been talking aboutthis, as we're recording, it has
been a chaos 24 hours, 48 hours, chaos, right.
All sorts of questions aboutfederal funding and federal
(03:24):
grants and all of the things.
So much happening, and there isan extent to which that impacts
somebody's mental health, right,because trying to keep up with
all of it and figure out how itimpacts the nonprofits we serve
is demanding and overwhelming,and so there is a mental health
component to that overwhelming,and so there is a mental health
(03:46):
component to that.
But it is not the onlychallenge that fundraisers are
seeing in their nonprofits rightnow.
Trying to figure out where thegrants are coming from and if
that's going to happen is itsown pressure, but there are
plenty of other pressures, andso that's what we kind of want
to dig into today, hopefully asan encouragement to our
fundraisers out there.
I'm excited for this.
So, yeah, let's start there.
(04:08):
Tell me where you the thingsthat you've kind of been
thinking about in this spacewhen it comes to some of the
burnout and mental healthstatistics that we're seeing in
the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Right.
So fundraising has always beenchallenging.
Your day-to-day is alwaysdifferent.
There have been mornings.
I've put my hiking boots in themorning to go visit a camp and
go on a hike with a donor toshow them a piece of property
that needs to be revised, andthat ended the evening in a
cocktail dress with wine andcheese, talking to someone else
about the impact of the program.
(04:40):
That's just the nature of thework we do and it's one of the
reasons why so many of us loveit.
You can truly have a week whereeverything changes and
everything's different.
But what has been coming outespecially here in the Western
(05:05):
Pennsylvania market, I think,more recently is the challenges
to culture within nonprofitemployment, and it's
heartbreaking when colleaguescall me and say I just I have
resigned, I'm taking asabbatical, I don't have any
other place to go, but I knew Icouldn't stay there.
I only lasted six, eight weeks,three months a year.
There was some great researchabout the challenges and
attracting and hiring nonprofittalent fundraising talent and
(05:26):
yet the flip side wasn't heardright.
If you want to attract andretain fundraising talent,
offering salaries and healthywork environments are key to
that.
Yeah, I truly think part of itwas our results from COVID.
We had a group of a wholegeneration of nonprofit leaders
that held on during COVID.
(05:48):
Maybe they delayed retirement,Maybe they learned a lot about
themselves and their leadershipskills.
They cared about the mentalhealth of their employees.
They emphasized with thechallenges of fundraising and
homeschooling.
Suddenly, or whatever, and thenwe had a large turnover in
those organization leaders.
Those leaders were ready toretire.
(06:09):
They were perhaps exhausted.
They had led organizationsthrough very difficult times and
the new generation of executivedirectors and CEOs are really
struggling to understand thoseleadership skills to be able to
provide healthy workenvironments for all their
employees.
I had a friend who was doing astrategic planning for an
(06:31):
organization here in town and hecalled me and says what do you
know about them?
What's your impression?
And listened and I said theword on the street is that CEO
is difficult to work for andthat's one of the reasons why
they're having trouble retainingstaff, especially fundraising
staff.
Yeah, the board knew it.
The board had funders on it.
(06:52):
They all knew that thisparticular organization was
struggling to maintainfundraising operations because
they weren't providing a healthywork environment.
So where do we start holdingour CEOs accountable?
When do the funders startsaying, if we're giving you a
grant of $200,000 for genderequity, then one of the
(07:14):
stipulations is going to be thatyou do a gender equity
compensation survey and we'llpay for it, and then we're going
to make sure that you model thesame behavior that we're asking
the rest of the community tofollow.
Yeah, and the nonprofitprofessionals are just sitting
here waiting for our largefunders to say you're not an
(07:35):
efficient organization becauseyou're burning through staff so
fast.
And this is a real issue andit's just the heartbreaking
moment right now for fundraisingprofessionals.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So talk to me a little bitabout that.
Let's dig deeper into that onepiece of it.
I think sometimes we do seethat it's easy to have excuses,
right, well, we're just anon-profit, we're small, we have
a small team, you know every.
There's so many excuses that wecan hide behind, maybe for not
embracing some of thoseinitiatives to build a healthier
(08:08):
culture, to make sure thatcompensation is in line or that
benefits are in line.
In an ideal world it would comefrom the CEO, right, the
executive director, or maybefrom the board.
But where are some of thosepieces in your like?
Where does it start?
Is it board driven?
(08:29):
Is it executive director driven?
Where's the disconnect startingfrom what we preach as a
nonprofit to what we actually dofor our people?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I think that the one of the disconnects is about a
growth mindset.
So I'm a better fundraisertoday than I was three years ago
and I would hope that after 25years of fundraising I haven't
reached my peak.
I hope that in three years I'meven better.
And yet boards sometimes hireCEOs expecting them to have all
(09:00):
the answers and all the skillsand all the tools that they need
, and they don't invest inexecutive coaching, they don't
invest in HR supports.
They decide that the CEO shouldbe the chief HR, the chief
finance, the chief fundraiser,all sorts of things, and not
actually give them the tools todo that.
(09:21):
So again, when we go back toour funders or we go back to our
board of directors and say,truly, $300 a year for your
executive director'sprofessional development is not
enough.
If you truly want to retain anexecutive director or a CEO and,
let's be honest, the titleexecutive director is really
just a demotion that tries tosave salary If you are the chief
(09:43):
person who can sign legaldocuments for a nonprofit, your
title should be CEO.
We don't call for-profitpresidents or leaders of a
for-profit company an executivedirector.
We only do it to nonprofits tohelp keep salaries low, to try
to limit what we say is thatperson's responsibility.
They are the chief executiveofficer and they should be
(10:06):
supported and compensatedaccordingly.
And so if we look at afor-profit company and say the
CEO doesn't come in with all theanswers, they come in with a
lot of them.
But we're going to invest inprofessional development, we're
going to get them in a peersupport group of other CEOs,
we're going to get themexecutive coaching, we're going
to make sure they have a goodCFO so that they're not the only
(10:27):
one looking at the books tryingto make sure things are on
track.
We're going to make sure thatat a certain level, there really
is either outsourced HRleadership or internal strong HR
leadership, and we're just notseeing organizations and board
of directors commit to thatlevel of growth within their
nonprofits.
Organizations and board ofdirectors commit to that level
of growth within theirnonprofits and then they
(10:50):
struggle saying, well, how do weget capacity building grants?
Or how do we convince thedonors that we're ready to grow
or to invest more in us?
You're not investing inyourself.
It's hard to take you seriouslywhen you're cutting all of
these corners.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
So, in a problem solvingmentality, if you are somebody
(11:20):
and I want to break this downfrom like multiple seats, right,
so if you are somebody who is afundraising professional, what
are the steps that you can taketo encourage change in that
direction?
And even from the boardperspective because we have
folks listening to the podcastwho are all three of those
things, right, yeah.
And so I'd love to be able tokind of break down understanding
that if you're the fundraiser,you may not have all of the
power to affect that change, andkind of leading from the back,
(11:42):
if you will, but what are somesteps that each of those groups
could take to help drive changewithin their organization and
make it healthier in that regard?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
And I think that's one of the beautiful things
about being a fundraiser and anonprofit leader.
From a fundraising perspective,it's like what is that puzzle
box, that top of dollars and wecan't lower those salaries
because we're not going to beable to get the quality of staff
that we need and then reallytalking to the donors about the
(12:26):
real cost of a program thatincludes a livable salary and
benefits and professionaldevelopment all included in that
, all included in that.
So board members need to knowthat whatever salary they set
for their CEO, there needs to beanother $10,000 to $15,000
budgeted for professionaldevelopment.
And then there needs to be theprioritization of the
(12:50):
professionalism of all the otherexecutive level spots.
One thing we're seeing rightnow is organizations going for a
director of developmentposition because they think the
CEO needs to be the chieffundraising officer, which is
kind of our own fault asnonprofit leaders.
For so long, fundraisingprofessionals were told who is
the chief fundraiser and we weretold the CEO Sure.
(13:10):
And that's not entirely trueanymore.
If you've got a strongfundraising chief, a chief
development officer, a VP ofadvancement, someone who's
really taking leadership on that, your CEO is actually able and
freed up to be strategic, tohandle board relations, to be
out in the community, to be asecond voice.
That's how you position yourorganization for growth.
(13:33):
I truly believe that, as afundraiser, if I went to some of
the people who really careabout an organization and its
success and said the missingpuzzle piece is I need an
executive coach for my CEO sothey have somebody to confide in
.
They have someone who's beenhere before.
They can take care of thesechallenges and deal with this, I
(13:56):
think they would invest.
I know they'd invest becausethey do care about organization
success.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
MonkeyPod brings financial and people management
together into one platform.
Nonprofits can manage theiraccounting and grants from the
same software they use to sendemails, collect donations and
track donors.
Instead of using three or fourdifferent apps to run your
non-profit, monkeypod brings allthose features together into
one single platform, saving youtime and money.
(14:29):
Non-profit hub podcastlisteners can get a special 15%
off discount on the first yearof their MonkeyPod subscription.
Learn more by visitingmonkeypodio.
Slash non-profit hub can get aspecial 15% off discount on the
first year of their MonkeyPodsubscription.
Learn more by visitingmonkeypodio slash nonprofithub.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So I think, in my opinion anyway, this is all part
of maybe a much broader issueinto the nonprofit space, which
is the idea that investing inwhat I'm going to put in air
quotes as overhead right issomehow viewed as taking away
from the mission, right?
So if we invest $10,000 inexecutive coaching for our CEO
and our executive directors tomove forward, then that's
program money that's not beingspent in the community, or
that's research money that's notgoing out or whatever fill in
the blank cause, right.
But those are pressures that wewould never put on a for-profit
(15:36):
entity, right?
Nobody's coming at them andsaying you know, you really
could cut the cost of yourwidget if you didn't spend that
money over here in professionaldevelopment and that would be
better for the bottom line.
Nobody's putting themaccountable to that.
And then we hold nonprofits tothis standard where it looks
almost selfish on behalf of theleaders if they want to invest
(15:57):
in themselves in theorganization that way, because
it's taking away and again airquotes from the mission when
really that's so short-sighted.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
It's not a way of running anything Right, and so
there's a couple of things hereyou know.
First of all, there's been someresearch more recently that
said that organizations need toactually invest 30% of their
budget towards infrastructureand things that are
traditionally labeled overhead.
So we know, we already haveproof that 20% is a myth, and we
have letters from all sorts ofindustry leaders.
(16:30):
Unfortunately and I've been inthe position with a nonprofit
where it did not matter whatkind of data you presented Some
of those community members werenot shifting their mind, and it
was at that time just forpolitical reasons.
They just didn't want to admitthey were wrong and so they
wouldn't.
Unfortunately, the good thing,the ideal situation, is then
just decide they're not for yourorganization, that they aren't
(16:51):
a fit.
Unfortunately, that wasn't anoption on the table in that
situation.
But the second thing is thatwhen we start looking at
organizations, that aresuccessful.
Oftentimes they're not the onesplaying those little
conversations.
I mean, how many universitiesget called out for their
(17:12):
overhead?
Sure Right.
I mean they might get calledout for their endowment size?
Yeah, but and how many hospitalsystems and how many larger
organizations?
Are people really readingthrough those nine nineties and
caring?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
No, it's all the small folks, it's the small
lines trying to impact theircommunities Right.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
It's the small organizations who have recruited
board members that they thinkare the social movers and
shakers.
And this gets back to thisoutdated nonprofit model that we
have, in that we have toldboard members for decades.
Unfortunately, there is no waythe nonprofit can function
without some sort of advice fromyou.
You are the smart one, you arethe business person, you are the
(17:57):
philanthropist, you know thisindustry.
Our poor nonprofit staff can'tnearly be smart enough to do
this work on their own.
They need your expertise.
So we literally tell boardmembers the more advice you give
, the more successful theorganization is going to be.
In reality, we have to resetthat.
We have CEOs and we haveexecutive staff that are career
(18:20):
professionals.
We don't necessarily need a CPAon every board of directors.
We do have a treasurer.
That's a rule.
Yes, we want an extra set ofeyes, but if you have a real
career CFO, they're going toknow more about nonprofit
accounting and the challengesthan a CPA from a construction
firm.
Sure, yes, we need communityrepresentation on our board of
(18:45):
directors.
That does not mean the localbusiness leader knows how to run
a human service organization.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, yes to all of that.
But there's so much publicperception of that that has to
shift along with it, because, toyour point, we've been telling
the same story for decades.
Now the research is out therethat proves that this, that the
narrative is incorrect.
But it's so ingrained as partof our culture that everybody
(19:13):
knows somebody that's been onthe board of a non right and
they have shared that experiencewith their circle of friends
and so it has trickled out.
Even if someone themselveshasn't sat on the board, they
know somebody who has.
They've had this experience,and that's that mindset is so
prevalent across the board insociety.
So it's definitely a muchlarger perception change.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
And wouldn't it be lovely if all of our board
members could sit in a room andhear someone say I'm not trying
to get your business, I'm nottrying to get you to hire me,
I'm trying to help you be theexact best board member you can
be.
And the first thing that isgoing to involve is not looking
cross-eyed at your CEO everymorning, trying to take them
down.
Every morning you should wakeup and your board service should
(19:59):
bring you joy because it's avolunteer role, and you should
think I wonder what I could doto advance that volunteer work
today just a little bit.
Maybe it's I have coffee withone friend to tell them how much
I appreciate this organization,or I'm excited to share an
update.
Maybe I sell one more galaticket.
Maybe I really read thosefinancials thoughtfully and ask
(20:22):
questions so I'm well-informed.
Perhaps the way I can supportthe organization today is not
sending an angry email to theCEO so that that's how she or he
is walking into their officethat day.
That could be if you as a boardmember today, right now, just
opened your email and just sentan email out to your senior
staff and just said today is agood day and our mission is
(20:45):
advancing because all of youshowed up for work today and we
are grateful for that.
Just do that, send that email.
Yes, that can advance anorganization so far because
you're being a part of thesolution.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, I, especially in this season where everything
is changing so quickly, wherenonprofits are facing maybe some
budget shortages because of theway that finances are changing.
That encouragement goes so far.
With an organization like that,especially when things are
uncertain, the more that you canbe part of the solution and
(21:18):
encourage the folks who are onthe front line, the better.
I love that.
And the solution is encouragethe folks who are on the front
line, the better I love that.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
And the solution is not panicking.
Yes, the federal fundingsituation is scary and it's
scary because services could besuspended, services could end,
services that people depend onin their communities for child
care, for health care, for a lotof things could cease or could
pause.
(21:44):
Our nonprofit staff are hugelyempathetic.
They are in this because theytruly care about those we serve.
And it's straining, but it'stime for our communities to
gather.
I think and I believe they are.
I believe in many communities.
I believe our communityfoundations, our funders, our
(22:05):
corporate leaders are startingto look at this and assess how
do we handle this, what's ourpath forward?
Yeah, I don't think the rest ofthe community knows that yet, I
don't think it's quite gottenout yet, but I do have faith in
those who care that things arehappening behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But to your point and I love the don't panic sentence
, right, because, yes, an emaillike that that's showing some
stability and showing someencouragement from the board is
a fantastic approach.
But I had asked previouslyabout, like, what are the things
that maybe a CEO or executivedirector can do as well?
And that's the same thing,right?
Imagine, in the midst of thischaos, if you got an email from
(22:44):
your CEO outlining hey, I knowright now everything looks a
little uncertain.
Just want you to know Iappreciate you and the work that
you're doing.
We're going to continue to doit in the best way possible.
Those kinds of sentencesinstead of you know, my face is
on fire and I'm running aroundand I don't know what's
happening and like giving offthat panic vibe.
(23:07):
Even that changes culture.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, kudos to the CEOs who saw the memo, came out,
maybe first called their boardchair and says I need us to be,
I need to start looking at this,I need us to be a team on this.
But their second action was anall staff email that said I know
it's scary, I don't have theanswers.
I assure you, I'm trying towork on them and we're in this
(23:33):
together as much as we can.
One of the little thorns on myside and nonprofit work is when
we say to ourselves we can't doa little bit of good, because
then what if we're wrong?
Or what if it opens up and weare asked to do more good?
That's when authenticity comesinto and honesty comes into play
.
If I, as a CEO, says I don'thave all the answers, but I want
(23:55):
you, as my team, to know thatwe're looking at it, that we're
going to do our best, that we'rein this together and that we're
going to try to find a waythrough.
That goes a long way for yourstaff, instead of 24 hours being
like I still haven't heard fromanyone, and the same is for
your donors.
So your donors are in the sameboat.
They're looking at this too andthinking, well, what happened
(24:16):
to this organization I careabout deeply.
And then initial conversation.
I mean truly copy, paste, paste, change the audience because if
it's authentic and truthful andtransparent, you know, tell the
truth that for no other reasonit's the easiest thing to
remember.
Yeah, send it to the donors andsay, yes, we're scared, I don't
know what's going on.
I'm going to keep you updatedas much as I can, but we're
(24:39):
prioritizing figuring this out.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah Well, the idea of honest communication because
I see this in a lot ofnonprofits too is like I don't
know what to say because it'schanging so fast and I'm scared
and so I'm just not going to sayanything.
But in the absence ofcommunication, people will
create their own narrativearound that.
And so all of a sudden, youhave a staff that's buzzing
(25:02):
around the water cooler abouthow we're shutting down and our
programs are going to be goneand that and my job is going to
be gone, and I, you know, whennone of that needed to happen.
We're not there yet.
Calm down, right, but the lackof of communication can
sometimes be the enemy in thatorganization too.
So just taking the step to sayI see you, you're doing great,
(25:24):
we're going to get through thistogether, I'm staying on top of
it Just that little bit ofcommunication changes culture
massively.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Right.
And if you're a board memberand you have an organization
that's going through this andyou're like I don't know how to
support them.
It's changing too fast, wedon't have direction, you go and
you buy a coffee and you bringit in the office.
Or if they're all remoteemployees, you get one of those
services where you send a giftcard over the email, like if
your staff is in crisis mode.
Kindness is never a bad thing,so just treat them like if they
(25:56):
were your friends.
Yes, just treat them like ifthey were your friends.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yes, love that.
I love that.
Okay, so we just have a couplemore minutes before we wrap up.
If somebody wanted to connectwith you, they want to maybe
talk more about this.
They are interested in maybehelping their nonprofit get to a
better place.
In those regards, what's thebest way to find you and connect
with you?
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, I think the best way right now is LinkedIn,
which is Abigail Tobio, my lastname's T-O-B-I-A.
You should be able to find methat way.
I do a pretty good job ofchecking my messages and staying
on top of that, so I would saythat's the easiest way.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Fantastic, Well, good .
As we wrap up, let me just askyou one final question, and that
is in this season, based on allof the things that we have
talked about in thisconversation.
If there was one word ofencouragement that you could
give to the fundraisersspecifically, be it in this
season or just in general, ifthere was one word of
(26:56):
encouragement that you couldgive to the folks in the
fundraising field, what wouldthat look like?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
It's okay and feel free to communicate with your
donors, that you don't have theanswers and that you're working
through them and that you'll bein touch and it's okay.
I do believe our donors havestepped up in wild and crazy
situations.
They've stepped up when we hadcapital campaigns.
They've stepped up when we'vebeen forced into campaigns
(27:23):
because of our building roofcollapse or something.
They stepped up during COVID.
They've stepped up in times ofgreat opportunities or
challenges and this is anotherchallenge and I do have faith in
our communities.
It is just scary and that'sokay to be scared, and then we
take a deep breath and we strapon our hiking boots again and
tomorrow we try again.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I love it.
Such wisdom, abigail.
Thank you, I appreciate allthat you had to share.
Thanks for joining us today.
Again, my guest has beenAbigail Tobia, and you can
connect with her on LinkedIn Ifyou'd like to learn more.
She's always got some reallygreat words of wisdom on
LinkedIn as well, so definitelyrecommend connecting with her
that way.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
(28:04):
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
Non-profit professionals are motivated to
make a difference, but theminutia of non-profit operations
can get in the way of themeaningful work you set out to
do.
That's where MonkeyPod comes in.
Monkeypod helps non-profits getback to their mission by
eliminating busy work.
Their all-in-one softwareincludes a CRM, non-profit
accounting, email marketing,online fundraising and grant
(00:23):
management.
Non-profit Hub listeners canget 15% off the first year of a
MonkeyPod subscription byvisiting monkeypodio slash
nonprofithub.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome back to another episode of the Nonprofit
Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear,excited to dive into a
conversation today with AbigailTobia, who is a nonprofit
consultant, has years anddecades of this not decades,
that sounds, I mean, it'sprobably fair to say, but I
don't want to.
I don't want to age you in theprocess, but just so much wisdom
(00:56):
and so much experience in thenonprofit space, so really
excited to have you joining ustoday.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate the invitation,Megan.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Absolutely so.
To that end, paint a picturefor us, give me a little bit of
insight and give the audience alittle bit of insight into kind
of who you are and your journeyin the nonprofit space.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Sure.
So I started as anundergraduate in social work and
focused on youth developmentand then started looking at grad
school and I thought my careerpath would be to be an executive
director.
That's what I thought was outthere.
I actually started college as atheater major and really
enjoyed kind of the stagemanagement perspective and I got
(01:36):
assigned to a show of theTempest and I went to my advisor
and I said I can't do thisrehearsal schedule.
I do Girl Scouts for a troopthat's rural and underserved and
I have to use my lunch hour togo and be their troop leader.
And she very calmly looked atme.
She goes if your volunteer workis interfering with your
ability to be in the theater,perhaps you need a new major.
(01:58):
And so that was my.
I have a theater minor onlybecause I made it through like
two semesters before they saidyour volunteer work, your
community work, is interferingwith your education.
So I decided a major that wasmore compatible with my desire
to be engaged in the community.
I mean, that's a true nonprofitheart right there.
Yeah, so I went to the socialwork department and thankfully
(02:22):
they welcomed me there, thesocial work department and
thankfully they welcomed methere.
And so after my undergraduate Iwas looking at grad schools and
I found a really greatnonprofit management program
through Regis University and I'mgoing through and I'm thinking
that I'm taking classes and I'mthinking I'm going to be an
executive director and Irealized that everyone needs a
fundraiser and the fundraisingdidn't intimidate me.
(02:42):
So my capstone was on plannedgiving.
I studied fundraising andthat's been my career path in
nonprofits.
I make a really good teammember at that top level and
being able to connect resourcesand programs and clinical and
all the different parts of anonprofit with the passions of
our donors yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I love that that well .
I am excited because definitelythat experience is going to
come into play in ourconversation today.
As we have been talking aboutthis, as we're recording, it has
been a chaos 24 hours, 48 hours, chaos, right.
All sorts of questions aboutfederal funding and federal
(03:24):
grants and all of the things.
So much happening, and there isan extent to which that impacts
somebody's mental health, right,because trying to keep up with
all of it and figure out how itimpacts the nonprofits we serve
is demanding and overwhelming,and so there is a mental health
component to that overwhelming,and so there is a mental health
(03:46):
component to that.
But it is not the onlychallenge that fundraisers are
seeing in their nonprofits rightnow.
Trying to figure out where thegrants are coming from and if
that's going to happen is itsown pressure, but there are
plenty of other pressures, andso that's what we kind of want
to dig into today, hopefully asan encouragement to our
fundraisers out there.
I'm excited for this.
So, yeah, let's start there.
(04:08):
Tell me where you the thingsthat you've kind of been
thinking about in this spacewhen it comes to some of the
burnout and mental healthstatistics that we're seeing in
the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Right.
So fundraising has always beenchallenging.
Your day-to-day is alwaysdifferent.
There have been mornings.
I've put my hiking boots in themorning to go visit a camp and
go on a hike with a donor toshow them a piece of property
that needs to be revised, andthat ended the evening in a
cocktail dress with wine andcheese, talking to someone else
about the impact of the program.
(04:40):
That's just the nature of thework we do and it's one of the
reasons why so many of us loveit.
You can truly have a week whereeverything changes and
everything's different.
But what has been coming outespecially here in the Western
(05:05):
Pennsylvania market, I think,more recently is the challenges
to culture within nonprofitemployment, and it's
heartbreaking when colleaguescall me and say I just I have
resigned, I'm taking asabbatical, I don't have any
other place to go, but I knew Icouldn't stay there.
I only lasted six, eight weeks,three months a year.
There was some great researchabout the challenges and
attracting and hiring nonprofittalent fundraising talent and
(05:26):
yet the flip side wasn't heardright.
If you want to attract andretain fundraising talent,
offering salaries and healthywork environments are key to
that.
Yeah, I truly think part of itwas our results from COVID.
We had a group of a wholegeneration of nonprofit leaders
that held on during COVID.
(05:48):
Maybe they delayed retirement,Maybe they learned a lot about
themselves and their leadershipskills.
They cared about the mentalhealth of their employees.
They emphasized with thechallenges of fundraising and
homeschooling.
Suddenly, or whatever, and thenwe had a large turnover in
those organization leaders.
Those leaders were ready toretire.
(06:09):
They were perhaps exhausted.
They had led organizationsthrough very difficult times and
the new generation of executivedirectors and CEOs are really
struggling to understand thoseleadership skills to be able to
provide healthy workenvironments for all their
employees.
I had a friend who was doing astrategic planning for an
(06:31):
organization here in town and hecalled me and says what do you
know about them?
What's your impression?
And listened and I said theword on the street is that CEO
is difficult to work for andthat's one of the reasons why
they're having trouble retainingstaff, especially fundraising
staff.
Yeah, the board knew it.
The board had funders on it.
(06:52):
They all knew that thisparticular organization was
struggling to maintainfundraising operations because
they weren't providing a healthywork environment.
So where do we start holdingour CEOs accountable?
When do the funders startsaying, if we're giving you a
grant of $200,000 for genderequity, then one of the
(07:14):
stipulations is going to be thatyou do a gender equity
compensation survey and we'llpay for it, and then we're going
to make sure that you model thesame behavior that we're asking
the rest of the community tofollow.
Yeah, and the nonprofitprofessionals are just sitting
here waiting for our largefunders to say you're not an
(07:35):
efficient organization becauseyou're burning through staff so
fast.
And this is a real issue andit's just the heartbreaking
moment right now for fundraisingprofessionals.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So talk to me a little bitabout that.
Let's dig deeper into that onepiece of it.
I think sometimes we do seethat it's easy to have excuses,
right, well, we're just anon-profit, we're small, we have
a small team, you know every.
There's so many excuses that wecan hide behind, maybe for not
embracing some of thoseinitiatives to build a healthier
(08:08):
culture, to make sure thatcompensation is in line or that
benefits are in line.
In an ideal world it would comefrom the CEO, right, the
executive director, or maybefrom the board.
But where are some of thosepieces in your like?
Where does it start?
Is it board driven?
(08:29):
Is it executive director driven?
Where's the disconnect startingfrom what we preach as a
nonprofit to what we actually dofor our people?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I think that the one of the disconnects is about a
growth mindset.
So I'm a better fundraisertoday than I was three years ago
and I would hope that after 25years of fundraising I haven't
reached my peak.
I hope that in three years I'meven better.
And yet boards sometimes hireCEOs expecting them to have all
(09:00):
the answers and all the skillsand all the tools that they need
, and they don't invest inexecutive coaching, they don't
invest in HR supports.
They decide that the CEO shouldbe the chief HR, the chief
finance, the chief fundraiser,all sorts of things, and not
actually give them the tools todo that.
(09:21):
So again, when we go back toour funders or we go back to our
board of directors and say,truly, $300 a year for your
executive director'sprofessional development is not
enough.
If you truly want to retain anexecutive director or a CEO and,
let's be honest, the titleexecutive director is really
just a demotion that tries tosave salary If you are the chief
(09:43):
person who can sign legaldocuments for a nonprofit, your
title should be CEO.
We don't call for-profitpresidents or leaders of a
for-profit company an executivedirector.
We only do it to nonprofits tohelp keep salaries low, to try
to limit what we say is thatperson's responsibility.
They are the chief executiveofficer and they should be
(10:06):
supported and compensatedaccordingly.
And so if we look at afor-profit company and say the
CEO doesn't come in with all theanswers, they come in with a
lot of them.
But we're going to invest inprofessional development, we're
going to get them in a peersupport group of other CEOs,
we're going to get themexecutive coaching, we're going
to make sure they have a goodCFO so that they're not the only
(10:27):
one looking at the books tryingto make sure things are on
track.
We're going to make sure thatat a certain level, there really
is either outsourced HRleadership or internal strong HR
leadership, and we're just notseeing organizations and board
of directors commit to thatlevel of growth within their
nonprofits.
Organizations and board ofdirectors commit to that level
of growth within theirnonprofits and then they
(10:50):
struggle saying, well, how do weget capacity building grants?
Or how do we convince thedonors that we're ready to grow
or to invest more in us?
You're not investing inyourself.
It's hard to take you seriouslywhen you're cutting all of
these corners.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah, I think that's interesting.
So, in a problem solvingmentality, if you are somebody
(11:20):
and I want to break this downfrom like multiple seats, right,
so if you are somebody who is afundraising professional, what
are the steps that you can taketo encourage change in that
direction?
And even from the boardperspective because we have
folks listening to the podcastwho are all three of those
things, right, yeah.
And so I'd love to be able tokind of break down understanding
that if you're the fundraiser,you may not have all of the
power to affect that change, andkind of leading from the back,
(11:42):
if you will, but what are somesteps that each of those groups
could take to help drive changewithin their organization and
make it healthier in that regard?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
And I think that's one of the beautiful things
about being a fundraiser and anonprofit leader.
From a fundraising perspective,it's like what is that puzzle
box, that top of dollars and wecan't lower those salaries
because we're not going to beable to get the quality of staff
that we need and then reallytalking to the donors about the
(12:26):
real cost of a program thatincludes a livable salary and
benefits and professionaldevelopment all included in that
, all included in that.
So board members need to knowthat whatever salary they set
for their CEO, there needs to beanother $10,000 to $15,000
budgeted for professionaldevelopment.
And then there needs to be theprioritization of the
(12:50):
professionalism of all the otherexecutive level spots.
One thing we're seeing rightnow is organizations going for a
director of developmentposition because they think the
CEO needs to be the chieffundraising officer, which is
kind of our own fault asnonprofit leaders.
For so long, fundraisingprofessionals were told who is
the chief fundraiser and we weretold the CEO Sure.
(13:10):
And that's not entirely trueanymore.
If you've got a strongfundraising chief, a chief
development officer, a VP ofadvancement, someone who's
really taking leadership on that, your CEO is actually able and
freed up to be strategic, tohandle board relations, to be
out in the community, to be asecond voice.
That's how you position yourorganization for growth.
(13:33):
I truly believe that, as afundraiser, if I went to some of
the people who really careabout an organization and its
success and said the missingpuzzle piece is I need an
executive coach for my CEO sothey have somebody to confide in
.
They have someone who's beenhere before.
They can take care of thesechallenges and deal with this, I
(13:56):
think they would invest.
I know they'd invest becausethey do care about organization
success.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
MonkeyPod brings financial and people management
together into one platform.
Nonprofits can manage theiraccounting and grants from the
same software they use to sendemails, collect donations and
track donors.
Instead of using three or fourdifferent apps to run your
non-profit, monkeypod brings allthose features together into
one single platform, saving youtime and money.
(14:29):
Non-profit hub podcastlisteners can get a special 15%
off discount on the first yearof their MonkeyPod subscription.
Learn more by visitingmonkeypodio.
Slash non-profit hub can get aspecial 15% off discount on the
first year of their MonkeyPodsubscription.
Learn more by visitingmonkeypodio slash nonprofithub.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So I think, in my opinion anyway, this is all part
of maybe a much broader issueinto the nonprofit space, which
is the idea that investing inwhat I'm going to put in air
quotes as overhead right issomehow viewed as taking away
from the mission, right?
So if we invest $10,000 inexecutive coaching for our CEO
and our executive directors tomove forward, then that's
program money that's not beingspent in the community, or
that's research money that's notgoing out or whatever fill in
the blank cause, right.
But those are pressures that wewould never put on a for-profit
(15:36):
entity, right?
Nobody's coming at them andsaying you know, you really
could cut the cost of yourwidget if you didn't spend that
money over here in professionaldevelopment and that would be
better for the bottom line.
Nobody's putting themaccountable to that.
And then we hold nonprofits tothis standard where it looks
almost selfish on behalf of theleaders if they want to invest
(15:57):
in themselves in theorganization that way, because
it's taking away and again airquotes from the mission when
really that's so short-sighted.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
It's not a way of running anything Right, and so
there's a couple of things hereyou know.
First of all, there's been someresearch more recently that
said that organizations need toactually invest 30% of their
budget towards infrastructureand things that are
traditionally labeled overhead.
So we know, we already haveproof that 20% is a myth, and we
have letters from all sorts ofindustry leaders.
(16:30):
Unfortunately and I've been inthe position with a nonprofit
where it did not matter whatkind of data you presented Some
of those community members werenot shifting their mind, and it
was at that time just forpolitical reasons.
They just didn't want to admitthey were wrong and so they
wouldn't.
Unfortunately, the good thing,the ideal situation, is then
just decide they're not for yourorganization, that they aren't
(16:51):
a fit.
Unfortunately, that wasn't anoption on the table in that
situation.
But the second thing is thatwhen we start looking at
organizations, that aresuccessful.
Oftentimes they're not the onesplaying those little
conversations.
I mean, how many universitiesget called out for their
(17:12):
overhead?
Sure Right.
I mean they might get calledout for their endowment size?
Yeah, but and how many hospitalsystems and how many larger
organizations?
Are people really readingthrough those nine nineties and
caring?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
No, it's all the small folks, it's the small
lines trying to impact theircommunities Right.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
It's the small organizations who have recruited
board members that they thinkare the social movers and
shakers.
And this gets back to thisoutdated nonprofit model that we
have, in that we have toldboard members for decades.
Unfortunately, there is no waythe nonprofit can function
without some sort of advice fromyou.
You are the smart one, you arethe business person, you are the
(17:57):
philanthropist, you know thisindustry.
Our poor nonprofit staff can'tnearly be smart enough to do
this work on their own.
They need your expertise.
So we literally tell boardmembers the more advice you give
, the more successful theorganization is going to be.
In reality, we have to resetthat.
We have CEOs and we haveexecutive staff that are career
(18:20):
professionals.
We don't necessarily need a CPAon every board of directors.
We do have a treasurer.
That's a rule.
Yes, we want an extra set ofeyes, but if you have a real
career CFO, they're going toknow more about nonprofit
accounting and the challengesthan a CPA from a construction
firm.
Sure, yes, we need communityrepresentation on our board of
(18:45):
directors.
That does not mean the localbusiness leader knows how to run
a human service organization.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, yes to all of that.
But there's so much publicperception of that that has to
shift along with it, because, toyour point, we've been telling
the same story for decades.
Now the research is out therethat proves that this, that the
narrative is incorrect.
But it's so ingrained as partof our culture that everybody
(19:13):
knows somebody that's been onthe board of a non right and
they have shared that experiencewith their circle of friends
and so it has trickled out.
Even if someone themselveshasn't sat on the board, they
know somebody who has.
They've had this experience,and that's that mindset is so
prevalent across the board insociety.
So it's definitely a muchlarger perception change.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
And wouldn't it be lovely if all of our board
members could sit in a room andhear someone say I'm not trying
to get your business, I'm nottrying to get you to hire me,
I'm trying to help you be theexact best board member you can
be.
And the first thing that isgoing to involve is not looking
cross-eyed at your CEO everymorning, trying to take them
down.
Every morning you should wakeup and your board service should
(19:59):
bring you joy because it's avolunteer role, and you should
think I wonder what I could doto advance that volunteer work
today just a little bit.
Maybe it's I have coffee withone friend to tell them how much
I appreciate this organization,or I'm excited to share an
update.
Maybe I sell one more galaticket.
Maybe I really read thosefinancials thoughtfully and ask
(20:22):
questions so I'm well-informed.
Perhaps the way I can supportthe organization today is not
sending an angry email to theCEO so that that's how she or he
is walking into their officethat day.
That could be if you as a boardmember today, right now, just
opened your email and just sentan email out to your senior
staff and just said today is agood day and our mission is
(20:45):
advancing because all of youshowed up for work today and we
are grateful for that.
Just do that, send that email.
Yes, that can advance anorganization so far because
you're being a part of thesolution.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, I, especially in this season where everything
is changing so quickly, wherenonprofits are facing maybe some
budget shortages because of theway that finances are changing.
That encouragement goes so far.
With an organization like that,especially when things are
uncertain, the more that you canbe part of the solution and
(21:18):
encourage the folks who are onthe front line, the better.
I love that.
And the solution is encouragethe folks who are on the front
line, the better I love that.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
And the solution is not panicking.
Yes, the federal fundingsituation is scary and it's
scary because services could besuspended, services could end,
services that people depend onin their communities for child
care, for health care, for a lotof things could cease or could
pause.
(21:44):
Our nonprofit staff are hugelyempathetic.
They are in this because theytruly care about those we serve.
And it's straining, but it'stime for our communities to
gather.
I think and I believe they are.
I believe in many communities.
I believe our communityfoundations, our funders, our
(22:05):
corporate leaders are startingto look at this and assess how
do we handle this, what's ourpath forward?
Yeah, I don't think the rest ofthe community knows that yet, I
don't think it's quite gottenout yet, but I do have faith in
those who care that things arehappening behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
But to your point and I love the don't panic sentence
, right, because, yes, an emaillike that that's showing some
stability and showing someencouragement from the board is
a fantastic approach.
But I had asked previouslyabout, like, what are the things
that maybe a CEO or executivedirector can do as well?
And that's the same thing,right?
Imagine, in the midst of thischaos, if you got an email from
(22:44):
your CEO outlining hey, I knowright now everything looks a
little uncertain.
Just want you to know Iappreciate you and the work that
you're doing.
We're going to continue to doit in the best way possible.
Those kinds of sentencesinstead of you know, my face is
on fire and I'm running aroundand I don't know what's
happening and like giving offthat panic vibe.
(23:07):
Even that changes culture.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Yeah, kudos to the CEOs who saw the memo, came out,
maybe first called their boardchair and says I need us to be,
I need to start looking at this,I need us to be a team on this.
But their second action was anall staff email that said I know
it's scary, I don't have theanswers.
I assure you, I'm trying towork on them and we're in this
(23:33):
together as much as we can.
One of the little thorns on myside and nonprofit work is when
we say to ourselves we can't doa little bit of good, because
then what if we're wrong?
Or what if it opens up and weare asked to do more good?
That's when authenticity comesinto and honesty comes into play
.
If I, as a CEO, says I don'thave all the answers, but I want
(23:55):
you, as my team, to know thatwe're looking at it, that we're
going to do our best, that we'rein this together and that we're
going to try to find a waythrough.
That goes a long way for yourstaff, instead of 24 hours being
like I still haven't heard fromanyone, and the same is for
your donors.
So your donors are in the sameboat.
They're looking at this too andthinking, well, what happened
(24:16):
to this organization I careabout deeply.
And then initial conversation.
I mean truly copy, paste, paste, change the audience because if
it's authentic and truthful andtransparent, you know, tell the
truth that for no other reasonit's the easiest thing to
remember.
Yeah, send it to the donors andsay, yes, we're scared, I don't
know what's going on.
I'm going to keep you updatedas much as I can, but we're
(24:39):
prioritizing figuring this out.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah Well, the idea of honest communication because
I see this in a lot ofnonprofits too is like I don't
know what to say because it'schanging so fast and I'm scared
and so I'm just not going to sayanything.
But in the absence ofcommunication, people will
create their own narrativearound that.
And so all of a sudden, youhave a staff that's buzzing
(25:02):
around the water cooler abouthow we're shutting down and our
programs are going to be goneand that and my job is going to
be gone, and I, you know, whennone of that needed to happen.
We're not there yet.
Calm down, right, but the lackof of communication can
sometimes be the enemy in thatorganization too.
So just taking the step to sayI see you, you're doing great,
(25:24):
we're going to get through thistogether, I'm staying on top of
it Just that little bit ofcommunication changes culture
massively.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Right.
And if you're a board memberand you have an organization
that's going through this andyou're like I don't know how to
support them.
It's changing too fast, wedon't have direction, you go and
you buy a coffee and you bringit in the office.
Or if they're all remoteemployees, you get one of those
services where you send a giftcard over the email, like if
your staff is in crisis mode.
Kindness is never a bad thing,so just treat them like if they
(25:56):
were your friends.
Yes, just treat them like ifthey were your friends.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yes, love that.
I love that.
Okay, so we just have a couplemore minutes before we wrap up.
If somebody wanted to connectwith you, they want to maybe
talk more about this.
They are interested in maybehelping their nonprofit get to a
better place.
In those regards, what's thebest way to find you and connect
with you?
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, I think the best way right now is LinkedIn,
which is Abigail Tobio, my lastname's T-O-B-I-A.
You should be able to find methat way.
I do a pretty good job ofchecking my messages and staying
on top of that, so I would saythat's the easiest way.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Fantastic, Well, good .
As we wrap up, let me just askyou one final question, and that
is in this season, based on allof the things that we have
talked about in thisconversation.
If there was one word ofencouragement that you could
give to the fundraisersspecifically, be it in this
season or just in general, ifthere was one word of
(26:56):
encouragement that you couldgive to the folks in the
fundraising field, what wouldthat look like?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
It's okay and feel free to communicate with your
donors, that you don't have theanswers and that you're working
through them and that you'll bein touch and it's okay.
I do believe our donors havestepped up in wild and crazy
situations.
They've stepped up when we hadcapital campaigns.
They've stepped up when we'vebeen forced into campaigns
(27:23):
because of our building roofcollapse or something.
They stepped up during COVID.
They've stepped up in times ofgreat opportunities or
challenges and this is anotherchallenge and I do have faith in
our communities.
It is just scary and that'sokay to be scared, and then we
take a deep breath and we strapon our hiking boots again and
tomorrow we try again.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I love it.
Such wisdom, abigail.
Thank you, I appreciate allthat you had to share.
Thanks for joining us today.
Again, my guest has beenAbigail Tobia, and you can
connect with her on LinkedIn Ifyou'd like to learn more.
She's always got some reallygreat words of wisdom on
LinkedIn as well, so definitelyrecommend connecting with her
that way.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
(28:04):
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.