December 6, 2024 • 29 mins
Ever wondered why scaling in the nonprofit sector feels like an uphill battle? Join me and Doug Paul, managing partner at Catapult, as we unpack the complexities of scaling nonprofit organizations and reveal the secrets to surmounting these challenges. With over two decades of experience, Doug provides invaluable insights into crafting a vision that is both aspirational and grounded in reality. We delve into the fascinating practice of "assumptions mapping," which helps identify potential pitfalls, ensuring all stakeholders share a clear understanding of the organization's starting point and objectives. Learn how to navigate distributed power structures and tackle the unique fundraising hurdles necessary for sustainable growth.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
As a nonprofit, it's hard to make a difference in the
community when your financesare holding you back.
With Maxis by FreedMaxic, youcan navigate complex challenges
with the right people, processesand technology.
Learn more about Maxis andschedule a complimentary
consultation at Maxis by FMcomslash nonprofit.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:24):
I'm your host, megan spear, andjoining me today is doug paul,
who's the managing partner atcatapult, and we are digging
into what I think is going to bea fantastic discussion,
especially as we're winding out2024 and digging into planning
for 2025 for organizations whoare looking to grow and scale
(00:45):
and have some big plans for 2025, I think this is going to be a
really great discussion aroundthe idea of what is stopping
your nonprofit from scaling andwhat are some of those barriers
look like.
So I'm excited to dig into it.
Doug, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Thank you so much for having me Excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Excellent.
So by way of introduction tellthe audience a little bit about
yourself and kind of yourjourney with nonprofits.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, I have over 20 years of working in this sector,
have led four differentnonprofits and then almost
tripped into organizationaldevelopment of nonprofits in
around 2009, 2010.
And so I've scaled up and downbetween doing full-time
organizational consulting fornonprofits, which is what I do
(01:30):
now, and actually leading themmyself.
So I'm kind of used to being onboth sides of the table, if you
will.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Nice.
It's very helpful, I'm sure, inthose discussions to have that
experience to draw from.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It really is.
This isn't just theory.
I feel like so many timespeople think if it looks good on
a piece of paper or whiteboardit must work in real life, and
if you're listening to this, youprobably know that's not true.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yes, how many of us have a five-year strategic plan
sitting in a really nice binderon our shelves?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Oh yeah, Gotta love a good dust-filled strategic plan
.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yes, just because you can put it on paper doesn't
mean that it's actually going tohappen.
So one of the things that Ithink you and I touched on a
little bit before the discussionhere today was this idea that,
like it's really nice to sitaround in a conference room and
dream big, and we can put 17 bigdreams on the wall, but then
(02:25):
those things tend to not takeshape.
So talk to me a little bitabout maybe the beginning of
what is the first thing thatstops nonprofits from scaling,
and how do we make the pie inthe sky dream a little more
practical?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, I think one of the things that we do when we're
working with a nonprofit isreally try to help them develop,
not just like a strategic planfor scaling or strategic plan
for growth, but to develop avision that has teeth.
And when we say teeth, thething that we're really talking
about is, as you think, aboutyour unique contribution in the
next five years, what's actuallyachievable?
(03:05):
Look, there is probably nothingmore than I like than being in
a conference room with awhiteboard preferably like
Florida, just Florida ceilingwhiteboards where we can just
mark four walls of it up, and Ithink that makes us feel good
about the possibilities, butthat doesn't mean any of it's
going to work.
And so I think the thing thatwe are always coaching people
(03:27):
that we're working withexecutive directors and CEOs of
nonprofits is you have to have areasonability filter, like is
it reasonable to think that wecould actually do this?
And so part of that is whenpeople are putting together a
vision or they're puttingtogether a strategic plan or
something like that.
We have this one exercise we do,called assumptions mapping,
(03:48):
which is like what are theassumptions that we're making
that, if we're wrong about, willundermine the entire effort and
most people who are leadingnonprofits and this is no shade
on them, because I've been there, done that and probably I'm
still doing it now think thatbecause we have an idea and we
feel it in our heart that itmust be true and it will find
its way into reality.
And I think it's reallyimportant to just pump the
(04:08):
brakes a little and check someof the assumptions that we might
have and then we can startbuilding with perhaps just a
clearer eye towards what realityactually is.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, so to that end, I think something that I have
seen repeatedly is that youcan't scale until you understand
where you are Right.
So having an actual eye on notjust where you want to go, but
on where you are, and beinghonest about where the
organization is tends to be, Ithink, a step that gets skipped
(04:44):
a lot.
Has that been your experience?
How do we get honest about that?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Well and I think this is, I think, megan one of my
presuppositions going into thisis I think leading a nonprofit
is probably the hardest job inthe world, in a way that I think
most people just can't wraptheir minds around.
If you're leading a nonprofit,it's kind of assumed that you're
raising your own salary.
(05:09):
I mean, you'll never find abusiness person that says that
or a government person that saysthat, or a teacher that says
that.
I mean, your income is comingfrom somewhere else.
But just the starting point ofyour difficulties leading a
nonprofit is you got to raiseyour own salary and PS everyone
else's.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
So I think a piece of that that makes it difficult,
in addition to things like that,is how distributed the power
centers are.
It's never just like one personwho holds all the power.
It's really spread out.
So, whether that is the boardor a specific person on the
board, or a key influencer or akey donor, all the power is
spread out.
And when you're talking aboutreality and a starting point for
(05:50):
scaling, it's really importantto understand that everyone has
to have a shared picture ofreality.
You're not the only one who cansee it clearly and you're going
to have blind spots.
So how do we get the rightpeople, the right constituents
in the room to have a sharedpicture of reality?
Because if you're going toscale, you have to have everyone
aligned in the same direction,and if we don't agree on what
(06:11):
point A is, we're never going toactually get to point B,
because we're going to bestarting in different places, so
that the shared picture we havefound is a really important key
to that important key to that.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So let's say somebody finds themselves in a position
right now where they're lookingat 2025 and they're going.
Yeah, my staff and I are allaligned, we understand where we
are, we understand where we wantto go and that differs from the
board or that.
We have maybe that as theconflict point.
What do we do if we findourselves in that kind of
position where there is maybeit's a key stakeholder, a key
(06:47):
donor, somebody, the board chairwho is the actual barrier to
you guys moving forward?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think you got.
You probably have more than twooptions, but I'll give you two
things that we regularly aredoing when we're working with
leaders in those situations.
Number one is pump the brakesand figure out a way to get that
group of people on the samepage and actually deal with some
of their objections and some oftheir barriers.
(07:13):
There is probably at least akernel of truth in what it is
that they're saying, and so howdo you actually deal with what
it is that they're saying in away that is constructive and
helpful?
Obviously, you know your board,your chair of the board, better
than you or I do, so that mightbe a possibility.
The other way and this is onewhere we found a little bit more
leeway and flexibility is inhaving conversations with that
(07:35):
person.
The thing that you might ask todo is to try something for a
time-bound period of time.
So try and experiment, ratherthan like, hey, we're going to
pivot the entire thing towardsthis new thing, say, hey, over
here on the side, we want to trysomething and maybe it works,
maybe it doesn't, but we aregoing to funnel a certain
(07:56):
percentage of our time, ourenergy and our resources into
this thing for this amount oftime and let's see what happens
and then we can have a seconddiscussion.
Almost always, people are upfor a good experiment.
I think a lot of people,particularly people on the
nonprofit board side, areoftentimes folks who are really
needing safety and security.
(08:17):
They're really risk averse andso if we can risk, mitigate what
they see as the possibility ofdamage to the organization by
doing it on the side.
It usually deals with a lot ofsome of the unspoken
uncomfortableness they haveabout some of the things you
might be bringing to the table.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
That's a really interesting point, and I think
it's very much how thefor-profit world functions right
.
Nobody just launches a newproduct off the bat right Like
it's an experiment over here andI think I guess I hadn't really
thought about it before.
But that is maybe a model thatthe nonprofit hub world has
(08:55):
shied away from thinking that ithas to be all in all or nothing
or we can't move forward withit, when that is not at all how
the business world works.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Or almost any sector.
Yeah, there is.
If you're looking for a littlebedtime reading, you can read
two pages at a time and it'llknock you right out.
But Nassim Tlaib has written abunch of books, but one of the
ones that we've used a lot is abook called Anti-Fragile, and he
talks about this theory calledthe barbell theory, and I won't
go into all of the details of it, but this is what he's
(09:25):
proposing.
He's saying, like, when you lookacross all sectors whether
that's the economy, the socialsector, business sector,
government sector, arts andentertainment, whatever it is
there is this thing where, whenthey want to find a new
innovation that is worthy ofscaling thing, where, when they
want to find a new innovationthat is worthy of scaling, they
do it to the side and they makesure that it's protected and the
(09:45):
things that are the norm of theexisting organization are not
actually affecting the thingthat's over here on the side.
And so on one side you have likealmost radical conservatism
around protection of the thingthat exists, but over here on
the other side you're doingradical experimentation and you
(10:06):
are expecting it to fail, butyou're trying to like fail fast
and iterate even faster from thelearning that you've got and
that's quite honestly.
That's where a lot of the workthat we're doing with nonprofits
is right now, because so manyof the models that have existed
in nonprofit work, that haveexisted for 25, 30, 50 years,
they're not working nearly aswell as they used to but we
(10:29):
haven't necessarily, like raisedup a group of leaders who have
been trained how to do that kindof innovation and scaling.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I think, more than most sectors, nonprofit is
very susceptible to well, that'sthe way we've always done it.
Yeah, this is our model.
This is what works, this is theway we've always done it, and
it is a much harder ship tochange course on.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It really is, and I think this is where, a little
bit going backwards to aquestion, you asked about
reality, one of the things thatis.
I think we feel theundercurrents of this reality,
but we haven't been able to nameit yet.
But what sociologists havepointed out is that culture is
now reinventing itself every 18months, and it used to be every
(11:13):
18 years, so we're squeezing 18years worth of generational
change into 18 months, and thatis happening to nonprofits as
well, and so, in the same waythat businesses are having to
like, think about how they'regoing to have to tweak and
change and iterate to keep up,nonprofits have to do the same
thing, and that's just the nameof the game now, for leading
(11:35):
anything is how fast things arechanging.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
That's a really interesting.
I had not heard that before,but we were having a discussion
on the podcast a couple of daysago with someone about some of
the generational challenges thatworkplaces are facing.
And this actually ties in verynicely to that right, because we
used to talk about a generationof people being a 10 to 15 year
(12:00):
span of time, and now one ofthe things that they were
talking about is like evensomebody who's 22 has very
little in common with someonewho's 25.
But that makes so much moresense when we're talking about
these generations changing soquickly and having that much
change in a shorter amount oftime change in a shorter amount
(12:22):
of time.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, and it's so.
As a leader, it's reallychallenging because there has to
be this almost like admission,like it's not, no one can keep
up with that, like it isimpossible to keep up with that.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
That's not sustainable.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It is not sustainable .
It's not sustainable for onemonth, much less 18 months, like
you can't do it.
And so there has there's thistension between acknowledgement
of I can't keep up, but we stillhave to change, and so it's
finding for your organizationand the constituency, the people
that you're serving, whateveryour mission and vision is like,
(12:52):
what's the right amount ofchange in a certain period of
time that's sustainable.
And so I think that's adifferent way of thinking about
it, and in that there willalways be tension.
There'll be times where itfeels like you're changing too
fast and times where it feelslike you're not keeping up
enough, but it's in the balance,I think, in threading that
needle that leaders are going tohave to find themselves.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So let's talk.
Let's maybe micro it down alittle bit and talk to leaders
of maybe not the executivedirector a little bit and talk
to leaders of maybe not theexecutive director, somebody
who's not leading the whole orgbut who runs program or who runs
development or who runsvolunteer management, each of
these kind of individualdepartments.
Are there exercises that thosefolks can be doing with their
(13:35):
team to start leading their teamand maybe starting
organizational change within onedepartment, or is this
something that really needs tobe top down?
We're embracing this as thewhole.
Every department is movingtowards the same thing.
What is your take there?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
The best case scenario is that you've got a
culture that is thinking aroundinnovation and how, when we trip
onto the right innovation, wemight be able to scale it.
That's the best case scenario,and so if you're a department
leader or program leader withinthat, then you're just drafting
off of the water.
That's already going in acertain direction.
If you're not and I think theremight be some leaders who are
(14:18):
listening to this who are not Ithink that's a fair assessment.
I think regularly, like youcan't you can set some
distinctives to your department,but I think it would be unwise
to try to change the entireculture of your organization.
That's going to be underminingof your own leadership with the
people that are above you in theorg chart, so to speak.
(14:39):
But there are two things that Ithink you can regularly do with
your team, two questions youcan ask that'll be really
helpful when we're talking aboutnavigating some of that tension
.
The first is around assumptions, which we talked about before,
and so a regular question youcan be asking your team I mean,
let's think about programmingfor a second is what are the
assumptions that we are makingright now as a team?
(14:59):
That may no longer be true.
Let's just challenge it, let'sbe open to the fact that it
might not be true.
So let's say we've worked witha neighborhood nonprofit that
serves under-resourced kids whoare struggling with literacy,
and so there is a way that we'vetaught kids to read for a very
long time.
But what if that way isn'tworking anymore?
(15:21):
We might assume that it is, butwhat if there's a better way
out there?
So we need to like create spaceto push up against some of
those assumptions, and that'sokay.
The second one is around, is onthe opposite side, and it's
around sameness, and it's whatis always going to be true that
I can build on.
And so I think one of thethings that we can tip into is,
(15:42):
if we're hearing like culture isreinventing itself every 18
months, is to tip the otherdirection and to say, like
everything is always reinventingitself.
That's not true.
Like we, human nature isgenerally the same.
Sure, what are the things thatwe believe are those truisms and
how do we build on those thingsto make this thing steady and
(16:03):
sustainable?
And so, on one side,assumptions and another side,
sameness, and then even at aprogramming level that allows
you to like really have whatfeels like a more safe
conversation about changes ortweaks or iterations you might
want to bring to the programitself.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I love that Mostly because it is really easy to get
caught up in the overwhelm ofeverything changing, but there
are some things that are justgoing to be true no matter what,
and so I think it's wisecounsel to balance those two.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
One of the first people that ever mentored me had
this great quote.
This might be the only quote ofhis I can still quote.
Like exactly, and he's likehuman beings are creatures of
overreaction, that we areconstantly like, pivoting from
one ditch to the other.
And if you've ever read thebook, oh, I can't remember.
(16:56):
But the idea of, like thenon-anxious leader, what does it
look like to find yourself in aplace where things might be
chaotic around you but you arenot?
And I think part of that is thetension that we're trying to
name around assumptions andsameness is we're not going to
be pitched too much to onedirection or the other based on
either the last news cycle weread the last TikTok video, we
(17:19):
watched the last board meetingwe had.
We're actually going to absorbthat and try to navigate that in
a way that is more balancingthan it is around making drastic
changes.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
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(17:58):
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Slash.
Nonprofit Is there, I think, alot of times nonprofits have a
(18:22):
tendency to be very siloed interms of their departments.
Right Half the time, marketingdoesn't know what program is
doing and donor developmentdoesn't know what's going on.
Over here.
We tend to be a little siloedFor something like scaling or
moving the organization forward.
Obviously we need all of thedepartments to be working
together.
Is there a tipping point wherethere's too many cooks in the
kitchen?
Is there a tipping point wherethere's too many cooks in the
kitchen?
Is it possible to have too manypeople involved in the scaling,
(18:43):
or who needs to make sure thatthey're at the table and who
might be better served to not be?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I don't know if it's necessarily about how many cooks
hooks there are in the kitchen,but it's more about process,
like at what point are wegetting feedback?
At what point are we doingideation?
At what point are we makingdecisions and how are we then
going to get what are thefeedback loops to figuring out,
like, once the decision's beenmade, how it's going?
(19:10):
And I think it has more to dowith people are not necessarily
used to particularly in anonprofit leading a process for
how those things string together, and so it can feel like it's
all happening at one time.
We're making the decision whilewe're brainstorming, while it
is that we're field testing it,while it like and it's not
(19:30):
actually like, hi, for thesenext 30 days, it's all about
feedback and then we're done.
The feedback is going to be onpause until we tell you when the
next thing is, and everyonewe're a big thing on this like
everyone gets to participate infeedback, because whoever helps
create the plan feels ownershipof the plan.
But what we have to do is tocreate a way that we can
(19:54):
actually silo not thedepartments but the feedback
loops as well as the decision,like how do people know who's
making the decision and how Isthat clear?
And then if they feel like theycan look at the plan and see
their fingerprints on it, we'vegot a real chance of this thing
working and scaling.
But we have to have aprocess-oriented approach for
that to happen.
I don't know if that makessense or not.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Makes sense in my head as I'm saying yeah, no, I
think that's super helpful.
Within that, between with thefeedback and ideation and
decision-making and moving itforward, where do you see the
process break down most often?
Which of these is the biggestbarrier to actually scaling?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Wow, what a great question.
I think part of it is peoplehave different definitions.
I think people there aredifferent ways that things scale
, and so when we don't driveinto the details of when I say
scaling and you say scaling, arewe saying the same thing, and
(20:58):
so that oftentimes, like justthe language that we're using
around, it is a barrier in andof itself, because we're
actually having two differentconversations Interesting, we're
having the same one.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So when we're working with an organization around
growth or scaling or strategicplanning or whatever it might be
, we're actually very careful tosay, like at the beginning
almost here's a glossary ofterms Are we saying the same
things you keep using?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
this word.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Does this word mean what you think it means?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So I think that's one of the most significant
barriers is just like are wesaying the same things even as
we're making the plan itself?
And then I think, like with allthings, if we are not planning
for something to be moredifficult than it probably is on
(21:42):
a piece of paper and notfactoring that into the plan,
that is oftentimes a big barrierin the nonprofit sector,
Because people are like,hypothetically, if you're in the
nonprofit sector, you could bemaking a lot more money
somewhere else and you're inthis for the mission, You're in
this because you've got a bigheart, and sometimes the heart
(22:03):
of that puts rose-coloredglasses on us to make us see
that things will end up in apositive direction.
And so again this goes back tolike we really got to challenge
the assumptions on some of thosethings.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Interesting.
Okay, so let's say we're cominginto the new year, leadership
comes back in January and wehave big dreams and big plans
and big goals.
Or maybe we've even spent sometime this year putting forward a
strategic plan and now we'reabout to embark on doing it.
Embark on doing it right Couldbe either of those phases what
(22:46):
happens when the plan fails, ormaybe you're in the middle of a
plan that has failed.
Do you have some theories oradvice on how we regroup?
Yeah, because I think to yourpoint at the top of the show.
It's very easy for boards tolook at one failure and say, yep
, nope, that's it, we're goingback to the way it was no more
(23:06):
innovation, we're just stayinghere and be adverse to trying
again.
So if somebody is either in themidst of a failure and trying
to regroup or it doesn't end upgoing that way, what's your
wisdom for them?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think first things first is like take a beat, take
a deep breath and when you'rehaving those conversations with
your close team that you havearound you, and then even as you
go wider, like just bring yourbest self to that, Don't bring a
reactive or emotional self,which is very difficult.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
That's so hard, though, so hard.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Totally get it Cause it's not like I'm not reactive.
I we've got a team meetingtomorrow morning and I'm sure I
will.
There's something going to become up and I'll be reactive to
it and I could use my own advice.
So I think that's the firstthing.
The second thing is just do apost-mortem, Like why did this
happen?
I think that's one of the likewe can name some of the elements
(24:01):
that are at work and whysomething doesn't work.
But it's really important todrill down into, like why didn't
it happen?
And what didn't we see when wewere making this decision that
kept us from knowing that it wasgoing to go in this direction?
Because if I can't do that,then I'm going to repeat that
failure.
And this is the biggest thingthat when we're working with
(24:22):
boards, like there is absolutelynothing wrong with failure
whatsoever, Because failureshould be stepping stones to
break through, unless we aren'tlearning from it.
And so the biggest question isnot whether or not you failed,
but whether or not you'relearning.
And how do we introduce the newlearning into the new thing that
we're going to do?
(24:42):
And so for some of it, it mighthave been like we could have
found out much sooner if we hadtested some of our assumptions,
like with some very simple90-day goals, that would have
allowed us that within 90 dayswe would have known that it
wasn't going to work and wewould have saved ourselves a
year or two or three years worthof time and resource and
investment into this by actuallychunking it out and really
(25:06):
building up and laddering into aplan that's like every 90 days,
what have we learned, whatworked, what didn't?
And we're going to iterate aswe go rather than thinking about
the plan as, like this, onegiant thing and it either all
works or all fails.
It creates a zero-sum game.
So some of it is also likewhat's the kind of plan that
(25:27):
you're using?
Is it one that allows it to beflexible, to learn as you go and
to adjust things as thatlearning is coming into place,
whether you succeeded or not inthose 90-day goals?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I love that Is there, because we talk a lot on this
show and in Nonprofit Hub worldin general, right, about donors
and fundraising.
How much of the scaling messageright?
Because if someone's going togive you their money, their
(25:59):
hard-earned dollars, and they'recommitted to your cause, how
much of that message goes backto donors, right?
Do we support the idea that,like I'm going to tell them that
we failed, or does that causetoo much, maybe mistrust or
doubt that you can fulfill?
(26:20):
What does the messaging looklike on the donor side when
you're trying to be anorganization that's growing and
scaling?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, I think when you've had a significant misstep
, it is how you frame it to adonor.
If you have a high net worthindividual who's given you a lot
of money, there is a very highlikelihood that they have had a
significant failure in theirlife, like a significant
(26:50):
business failure in their life.
They put money in a wronginvestment and they bottomed out
.
They are used to people notwinning every time, like that's
normal, and so the question iscan you get inside their mind
and see what they see aroundfailure?
And it's always about learningand it is.
I would encourage us not to goto them with like, hey, we
failed and we don't know what todo now.
(27:11):
That is a losing proposition.
Don't do that.
I would say like, hey, here'swhat we tried, here's what
didn't work, here's what wetried, here's what didn't work,
here's what we learned, here'show we're pivoting.
Can you give us some of yourfeedback on that?
Because I think what a high networth donor and again, you've
had people on that have saidthis all the time they don't
just want to open theircheckbook.
(27:31):
Sure, they act like they madetheir money some way, and it was
usually using their brain, andso it's not just their money
that they have to give, but it'salso their expertise.
How do you use their expertise?
So if you invite them in asopposed to like keeping them at
arm's length, you have a much,much better chance of them
continuing the kind ofgenerosity that we're hoping
(27:52):
will fuel the growth that youwant to see.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Okay.
So, as we wrap up, if somebodyis maybe thinking about scaling,
they have some big dreams.
They want to take theirorganization to the next level
and they wanted to talk to youor Catapult about that.
How did they find you?
How do we connect with you?
Tell us a little bit about thework that Catapult does.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, so number one, we have a whole book and we will
give it to you for free.
So it's a PDF book.
We have a hard copy of it aswell.
We will not give you that onefor free, but we'll give you the
PDF one and it's called ScalingNonprofits, and so I think I
can probably send it over to you, megan, and maybe you can put
it in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, we can put the link to that.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
That's a great place to start.
There are three sections inthat, each of which are
incredibly helpful as we'rethinking about scaling and
growth.
I think that the second way isyou can just go to our website,
wearecatapultorg, and we do alot of work around leadership
development.
We do a lot of work withstrategic planning, run
innovation and then some customwork around marketing and
(28:57):
program development and thingslike that, but the majority of
our work is all around scaling,innovation and strategic
planning.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Perfect, I love it.
Yes, we will definitely link toall of that in the show
description, so make sure youcheck that out, Doug, thank you
so much for joining us today.
I think this has been a greatdiscussion.
I'm excited to see what peopletake this advice and run with it
in their planning for 2025.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
That'd be great.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love talking about all thesethings and love all the
listeners who are listening.
Good luck in 2025.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yes, excellent.
Again, my guest has been DougPaul, who's one of the managing
partners at Catapult.
Thank you so much for joiningus, doug.
I really appreciate that and wewill see you all next time on
the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
As a nonprofit, it's hard to make a difference in the
community when your financesare holding you back.
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with the right people, processesand technology.
Learn more about Maxis andschedule a complimentary
consultation at Maxis by FMcomslash nonprofit.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
(00:24):
I'm your host, megan spear, andjoining me today is doug paul,
who's the managing partner atcatapult, and we are digging
into what I think is going to bea fantastic discussion,
especially as we're winding out2024 and digging into planning
for 2025 for organizations whoare looking to grow and scale
(00:45):
and have some big plans for 2025, I think this is going to be a
really great discussion aroundthe idea of what is stopping
your nonprofit from scaling andwhat are some of those barriers
look like.
So I'm excited to dig into it.
Doug, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Thank you so much for having me Excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Excellent.
So by way of introduction tellthe audience a little bit about
yourself and kind of yourjourney with nonprofits.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, I have over 20 years of working in this sector,
have led four differentnonprofits and then almost
tripped into organizationaldevelopment of nonprofits in
around 2009, 2010.
And so I've scaled up and downbetween doing full-time
organizational consulting fornonprofits, which is what I do
(01:30):
now, and actually leading themmyself.
So I'm kind of used to being onboth sides of the table, if you
will.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Nice.
It's very helpful, I'm sure, inthose discussions to have that
experience to draw from.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
It really is.
This isn't just theory.
I feel like so many timespeople think if it looks good on
a piece of paper or whiteboardit must work in real life, and
if you're listening to this, youprobably know that's not true.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yes, how many of us have a five-year strategic plan
sitting in a really nice binderon our shelves?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Oh yeah, Gotta love a good dust-filled strategic plan
.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yes, just because you can put it on paper doesn't
mean that it's actually going tohappen.
So one of the things that Ithink you and I touched on a
little bit before the discussionhere today was this idea that,
like it's really nice to sitaround in a conference room and
dream big, and we can put 17 bigdreams on the wall, but then
(02:25):
those things tend to not takeshape.
So talk to me a little bitabout maybe the beginning of
what is the first thing thatstops nonprofits from scaling,
and how do we make the pie inthe sky dream a little more
practical?
What does that look like?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, I think one of the things that we do when we're
working with a nonprofit isreally try to help them develop,
not just like a strategic planfor scaling or strategic plan
for growth, but to develop avision that has teeth.
And when we say teeth, thething that we're really talking
about is, as you think, aboutyour unique contribution in the
next five years, what's actuallyachievable?
(03:05):
Look, there is probably nothingmore than I like than being in
a conference room with awhiteboard preferably like
Florida, just Florida ceilingwhiteboards where we can just
mark four walls of it up, and Ithink that makes us feel good
about the possibilities, butthat doesn't mean any of it's
going to work.
And so I think the thing thatwe are always coaching people
(03:27):
that we're working withexecutive directors and CEOs of
nonprofits is you have to have areasonability filter, like is
it reasonable to think that wecould actually do this?
And so part of that is whenpeople are putting together a
vision or they're puttingtogether a strategic plan or
something like that.
We have this one exercise we do,called assumptions mapping,
(03:48):
which is like what are theassumptions that we're making
that, if we're wrong about, willundermine the entire effort and
most people who are leadingnonprofits and this is no shade
on them, because I've been there, done that and probably I'm
still doing it now think thatbecause we have an idea and we
feel it in our heart that itmust be true and it will find
its way into reality.
And I think it's reallyimportant to just pump the
(04:08):
brakes a little and check someof the assumptions that we might
have and then we can startbuilding with perhaps just a
clearer eye towards what realityactually is.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, so to that end, I think something that I have
seen repeatedly is that youcan't scale until you understand
where you are Right.
So having an actual eye on notjust where you want to go, but
on where you are, and beinghonest about where the
organization is tends to be, Ithink, a step that gets skipped
(04:44):
a lot.
Has that been your experience?
How do we get honest about that?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Well and I think this is, I think, megan one of my
presuppositions going into thisis I think leading a nonprofit
is probably the hardest job inthe world, in a way that I think
most people just can't wraptheir minds around.
If you're leading a nonprofit,it's kind of assumed that you're
raising your own salary.
(05:09):
I mean, you'll never find abusiness person that says that
or a government person that saysthat, or a teacher that says
that.
I mean, your income is comingfrom somewhere else.
But just the starting point ofyour difficulties leading a
nonprofit is you got to raiseyour own salary and PS everyone
else's.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
So I think a piece of that that makes it difficult,
in addition to things like that,is how distributed the power
centers are.
It's never just like one personwho holds all the power.
It's really spread out.
So, whether that is the boardor a specific person on the
board, or a key influencer or akey donor, all the power is
spread out.
And when you're talking aboutreality and a starting point for
(05:50):
scaling, it's really importantto understand that everyone has
to have a shared picture ofreality.
You're not the only one who cansee it clearly and you're going
to have blind spots.
So how do we get the rightpeople, the right constituents
in the room to have a sharedpicture of reality?
Because if you're going toscale, you have to have everyone
aligned in the same direction,and if we don't agree on what
(06:11):
point A is, we're never going toactually get to point B,
because we're going to bestarting in different places, so
that the shared picture we havefound is a really important key
to that important key to that.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
So let's say somebody finds themselves in a position
right now where they're lookingat 2025 and they're going.
Yeah, my staff and I are allaligned, we understand where we
are, we understand where we wantto go and that differs from the
board or that.
We have maybe that as theconflict point.
What do we do if we findourselves in that kind of
position where there is maybeit's a key stakeholder, a key
(06:47):
donor, somebody, the board chairwho is the actual barrier to
you guys moving forward?
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I think you got.
You probably have more than twooptions, but I'll give you two
things that we regularly aredoing when we're working with
leaders in those situations.
Number one is pump the brakesand figure out a way to get that
group of people on the samepage and actually deal with some
of their objections and some oftheir barriers.
(07:13):
There is probably at least akernel of truth in what it is
that they're saying, and so howdo you actually deal with what
it is that they're saying in away that is constructive and
helpful?
Obviously, you know your board,your chair of the board, better
than you or I do, so that mightbe a possibility.
The other way and this is onewhere we found a little bit more
leeway and flexibility is inhaving conversations with that
(07:35):
person.
The thing that you might ask todo is to try something for a
time-bound period of time.
So try and experiment, ratherthan like, hey, we're going to
pivot the entire thing towardsthis new thing, say, hey, over
here on the side, we want to trysomething and maybe it works,
maybe it doesn't, but we aregoing to funnel a certain
(07:56):
percentage of our time, ourenergy and our resources into
this thing for this amount oftime and let's see what happens
and then we can have a seconddiscussion.
Almost always, people are upfor a good experiment.
I think a lot of people,particularly people on the
nonprofit board side, areoftentimes folks who are really
needing safety and security.
(08:17):
They're really risk averse andso if we can risk, mitigate what
they see as the possibility ofdamage to the organization by
doing it on the side.
It usually deals with a lot ofsome of the unspoken
uncomfortableness they haveabout some of the things you
might be bringing to the table.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
That's a really interesting point, and I think
it's very much how thefor-profit world functions right
.
Nobody just launches a newproduct off the bat right Like
it's an experiment over here andI think I guess I hadn't really
thought about it before.
But that is maybe a model thatthe nonprofit hub world has
(08:55):
shied away from thinking that ithas to be all in all or nothing
or we can't move forward withit, when that is not at all how
the business world works.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Or almost any sector.
Yeah, there is.
If you're looking for a littlebedtime reading, you can read
two pages at a time and it'llknock you right out.
But Nassim Tlaib has written abunch of books, but one of the
ones that we've used a lot is abook called Anti-Fragile, and he
talks about this theory calledthe barbell theory, and I won't
go into all of the details of it, but this is what he's
(09:25):
proposing.
He's saying, like, when you lookacross all sectors whether
that's the economy, the socialsector, business sector,
government sector, arts andentertainment, whatever it is
there is this thing where, whenthey want to find a new
innovation that is worthy ofscaling thing, where, when they
want to find a new innovationthat is worthy of scaling, they
do it to the side and they makesure that it's protected and the
(09:45):
things that are the norm of theexisting organization are not
actually affecting the thingthat's over here on the side.
And so on one side you have likealmost radical conservatism
around protection of the thingthat exists, but over here on
the other side you're doingradical experimentation and you
(10:06):
are expecting it to fail, butyou're trying to like fail fast
and iterate even faster from thelearning that you've got and
that's quite honestly.
That's where a lot of the workthat we're doing with nonprofits
is right now, because so manyof the models that have existed
in nonprofit work, that haveexisted for 25, 30, 50 years,
they're not working nearly aswell as they used to but we
(10:29):
haven't necessarily, like raisedup a group of leaders who have
been trained how to do that kindof innovation and scaling.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I think, more than most sectors, nonprofit is
very susceptible to well, that'sthe way we've always done it.
Yeah, this is our model.
This is what works, this is theway we've always done it, and
it is a much harder ship tochange course on.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
It really is, and I think this is where, a little
bit going backwards to aquestion, you asked about
reality, one of the things thatis.
I think we feel theundercurrents of this reality,
but we haven't been able to nameit yet.
But what sociologists havepointed out is that culture is
now reinventing itself every 18months, and it used to be every
(11:13):
18 years, so we're squeezing 18years worth of generational
change into 18 months, and thatis happening to nonprofits as
well, and so, in the same waythat businesses are having to
like, think about how they'regoing to have to tweak and
change and iterate to keep up,nonprofits have to do the same
thing, and that's just the nameof the game now, for leading
(11:35):
anything is how fast things arechanging.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
That's a really interesting.
I had not heard that before,but we were having a discussion
on the podcast a couple of daysago with someone about some of
the generational challenges thatworkplaces are facing.
And this actually ties in verynicely to that right, because we
used to talk about a generationof people being a 10 to 15 year
(12:00):
span of time, and now one ofthe things that they were
talking about is like evensomebody who's 22 has very
little in common with someonewho's 25.
But that makes so much moresense when we're talking about
these generations changing soquickly and having that much
change in a shorter amount oftime change in a shorter amount
(12:22):
of time.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, and it's so.
As a leader, it's reallychallenging because there has to
be this almost like admission,like it's not, no one can keep
up with that, like it isimpossible to keep up with that.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
That's not sustainable.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It is not sustainable .
It's not sustainable for onemonth, much less 18 months, like
you can't do it.
And so there has there's thistension between acknowledgement
of I can't keep up, but we stillhave to change, and so it's
finding for your organizationand the constituency, the people
that you're serving, whateveryour mission and vision is like,
(12:52):
what's the right amount ofchange in a certain period of
time that's sustainable.
And so I think that's adifferent way of thinking about
it, and in that there willalways be tension.
There'll be times where itfeels like you're changing too
fast and times where it feelslike you're not keeping up
enough, but it's in the balance,I think, in threading that
needle that leaders are going tohave to find themselves.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So let's talk.
Let's maybe micro it down alittle bit and talk to leaders
of maybe not the executivedirector a little bit and talk
to leaders of maybe not theexecutive director, somebody
who's not leading the whole orgbut who runs program or who runs
development or who runsvolunteer management, each of
these kind of individualdepartments.
Are there exercises that thosefolks can be doing with their
(13:35):
team to start leading their teamand maybe starting
organizational change within onedepartment, or is this
something that really needs tobe top down?
We're embracing this as thewhole.
Every department is movingtowards the same thing.
What is your take there?
Speaker 2 (13:55):
The best case scenario is that you've got a
culture that is thinking aroundinnovation and how, when we trip
onto the right innovation, wemight be able to scale it.
That's the best case scenario,and so if you're a department
leader or program leader withinthat, then you're just drafting
off of the water.
That's already going in acertain direction.
If you're not and I think theremight be some leaders who are
(14:18):
listening to this who are not Ithink that's a fair assessment.
I think regularly, like youcan't you can set some
distinctives to your department,but I think it would be unwise
to try to change the entireculture of your organization.
That's going to be underminingof your own leadership with the
people that are above you in theorg chart, so to speak.
(14:39):
But there are two things that Ithink you can regularly do with
your team, two questions youcan ask that'll be really
helpful when we're talking aboutnavigating some of that tension
.
The first is around assumptions, which we talked about before,
and so a regular question youcan be asking your team I mean,
let's think about programmingfor a second is what are the
assumptions that we are makingright now as a team?
(14:59):
That may no longer be true.
Let's just challenge it, let'sbe open to the fact that it
might not be true.
So let's say we've worked witha neighborhood nonprofit that
serves under-resourced kids whoare struggling with literacy,
and so there is a way that we'vetaught kids to read for a very
long time.
But what if that way isn'tworking anymore?
(15:21):
We might assume that it is, butwhat if there's a better way
out there?
So we need to like create spaceto push up against some of
those assumptions, and that'sokay.
The second one is around, is onthe opposite side, and it's
around sameness, and it's whatis always going to be true that
I can build on.
And so I think one of thethings that we can tip into is,
(15:42):
if we're hearing like culture isreinventing itself every 18
months, is to tip the otherdirection and to say, like
everything is always reinventingitself.
That's not true.
Like we, human nature isgenerally the same.
Sure, what are the things thatwe believe are those truisms and
how do we build on those thingsto make this thing steady and
(16:03):
sustainable?
And so, on one side,assumptions and another side,
sameness, and then even at aprogramming level that allows
you to like really have whatfeels like a more safe
conversation about changes ortweaks or iterations you might
want to bring to the programitself.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
I love that Mostly because it is really easy to get
caught up in the overwhelm ofeverything changing, but there
are some things that are justgoing to be true no matter what,
and so I think it's wisecounsel to balance those two.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
One of the first people that ever mentored me had
this great quote.
This might be the only quote ofhis I can still quote.
Like exactly, and he's likehuman beings are creatures of
overreaction, that we areconstantly like, pivoting from
one ditch to the other.
And if you've ever read thebook, oh, I can't remember.
(16:56):
But the idea of, like thenon-anxious leader, what does it
look like to find yourself in aplace where things might be
chaotic around you but you arenot?
And I think part of that is thetension that we're trying to
name around assumptions andsameness is we're not going to
be pitched too much to onedirection or the other based on
either the last news cycle weread the last TikTok video, we
(17:19):
watched the last board meetingwe had.
We're actually going to absorbthat and try to navigate that in
a way that is more balancingthan it is around making drastic
changes.
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(17:58):
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Slash.
Nonprofit Is there, I think, alot of times nonprofits have a
(18:22):
tendency to be very siloed interms of their departments.
Right Half the time, marketingdoesn't know what program is
doing and donor developmentdoesn't know what's going on.
Over here.
We tend to be a little siloedFor something like scaling or
moving the organization forward.
Obviously we need all of thedepartments to be working
together.
Is there a tipping point wherethere's too many cooks in the
kitchen?
Is there a tipping point wherethere's too many cooks in the
kitchen?
Is it possible to have too manypeople involved in the scaling,
(18:43):
or who needs to make sure thatthey're at the table and who
might be better served to not be?
Speaker 2 (18:50):
I don't know if it's necessarily about how many cooks
hooks there are in the kitchen,but it's more about process,
like at what point are wegetting feedback?
At what point are we doingideation?
At what point are we makingdecisions and how are we then
going to get what are thefeedback loops to figuring out,
like, once the decision's beenmade, how it's going?
(19:10):
And I think it has more to dowith people are not necessarily
used to particularly in anonprofit leading a process for
how those things string together, and so it can feel like it's
all happening at one time.
We're making the decision whilewe're brainstorming, while it
is that we're field testing it,while it like and it's not
(19:30):
actually like, hi, for thesenext 30 days, it's all about
feedback and then we're done.
The feedback is going to be onpause until we tell you when the
next thing is, and everyonewe're a big thing on this like
everyone gets to participate infeedback, because whoever helps
create the plan feels ownershipof the plan.
But what we have to do is tocreate a way that we can
(19:54):
actually silo not thedepartments but the feedback
loops as well as the decision,like how do people know who's
making the decision and how Isthat clear?
And then if they feel like theycan look at the plan and see
their fingerprints on it, we'vegot a real chance of this thing
working and scaling.
But we have to have aprocess-oriented approach for
that to happen.
I don't know if that makessense or not.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Makes sense in my head as I'm saying yeah, no, I
think that's super helpful.
Within that, between with thefeedback and ideation and
decision-making and moving itforward, where do you see the
process break down most often?
Which of these is the biggestbarrier to actually scaling?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Wow, what a great question.
I think part of it is peoplehave different definitions.
I think people there aredifferent ways that things scale
, and so when we don't driveinto the details of when I say
scaling and you say scaling, arewe saying the same thing, and
(20:58):
so that oftentimes, like justthe language that we're using
around, it is a barrier in andof itself, because we're
actually having two differentconversations Interesting, we're
having the same one.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So when we're working with an organization around
growth or scaling or strategicplanning or whatever it might be
, we're actually very careful tosay, like at the beginning
almost here's a glossary ofterms Are we saying the same
things you keep using?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
this word.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Does this word mean what you think it means?
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
So I think that's one of the most significant
barriers is just like are wesaying the same things even as
we're making the plan itself?
And then I think, like with allthings, if we are not planning
for something to be moredifficult than it probably is on
(21:42):
a piece of paper and notfactoring that into the plan,
that is oftentimes a big barrierin the nonprofit sector,
Because people are like,hypothetically, if you're in the
nonprofit sector, you could bemaking a lot more money
somewhere else and you're inthis for the mission, You're in
this because you've got a bigheart, and sometimes the heart
(22:03):
of that puts rose-coloredglasses on us to make us see
that things will end up in apositive direction.
And so again this goes back tolike we really got to challenge
the assumptions on some of thosethings.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Interesting.
Okay, so let's say we're cominginto the new year, leadership
comes back in January and wehave big dreams and big plans
and big goals.
Or maybe we've even spent sometime this year putting forward a
strategic plan and now we'reabout to embark on doing it.
Embark on doing it right Couldbe either of those phases what
(22:46):
happens when the plan fails, ormaybe you're in the middle of a
plan that has failed.
Do you have some theories oradvice on how we regroup?
Yeah, because I think to yourpoint at the top of the show.
It's very easy for boards tolook at one failure and say, yep
, nope, that's it, we're goingback to the way it was no more
(23:06):
innovation, we're just stayinghere and be adverse to trying
again.
So if somebody is either in themidst of a failure and trying
to regroup or it doesn't end upgoing that way, what's your
wisdom for them?
Speaker 2 (23:21):
I think first things first is like take a beat, take
a deep breath and when you'rehaving those conversations with
your close team that you havearound you, and then even as you
go wider, like just bring yourbest self to that, Don't bring a
reactive or emotional self,which is very difficult.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
That's so hard, though, so hard.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Totally get it Cause it's not like I'm not reactive.
I we've got a team meetingtomorrow morning and I'm sure I
will.
There's something going to become up and I'll be reactive to
it and I could use my own advice.
So I think that's the firstthing.
The second thing is just do apost-mortem, Like why did this
happen?
I think that's one of the likewe can name some of the elements
(24:01):
that are at work and whysomething doesn't work.
But it's really important todrill down into, like why didn't
it happen?
And what didn't we see when wewere making this decision that
kept us from knowing that it wasgoing to go in this direction?
Because if I can't do that,then I'm going to repeat that
failure.
And this is the biggest thingthat when we're working with
(24:22):
boards, like there is absolutelynothing wrong with failure
whatsoever, Because failureshould be stepping stones to
break through, unless we aren'tlearning from it.
And so the biggest question isnot whether or not you failed,
but whether or not you'relearning.
And how do we introduce the newlearning into the new thing that
we're going to do?
(24:42):
And so for some of it, it mighthave been like we could have
found out much sooner if we hadtested some of our assumptions,
like with some very simple90-day goals, that would have
allowed us that within 90 dayswe would have known that it
wasn't going to work and wewould have saved ourselves a
year or two or three years worthof time and resource and
investment into this by actuallychunking it out and really
(25:06):
building up and laddering into aplan that's like every 90 days,
what have we learned, whatworked, what didn't?
And we're going to iterate aswe go rather than thinking about
the plan as, like this, onegiant thing and it either all
works or all fails.
It creates a zero-sum game.
So some of it is also likewhat's the kind of plan that
(25:27):
you're using?
Is it one that allows it to beflexible, to learn as you go and
to adjust things as thatlearning is coming into place,
whether you succeeded or not inthose 90-day goals?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
I love that Is there, because we talk a lot on this
show and in Nonprofit Hub worldin general, right, about donors
and fundraising.
How much of the scaling messageright?
Because if someone's going togive you their money, their
(25:59):
hard-earned dollars, and they'recommitted to your cause, how
much of that message goes backto donors, right?
Do we support the idea that,like I'm going to tell them that
we failed, or does that causetoo much, maybe mistrust or
doubt that you can fulfill?
(26:20):
What does the messaging looklike on the donor side when
you're trying to be anorganization that's growing and
scaling?
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, I think when you've had a significant misstep
, it is how you frame it to adonor.
If you have a high net worthindividual who's given you a lot
of money, there is a very highlikelihood that they have had a
significant failure in theirlife, like a significant
(26:50):
business failure in their life.
They put money in a wronginvestment and they bottomed out
.
They are used to people notwinning every time, like that's
normal, and so the question iscan you get inside their mind
and see what they see aroundfailure?
And it's always about learningand it is.
I would encourage us not to goto them with like, hey, we
failed and we don't know what todo now.
(27:11):
That is a losing proposition.
Don't do that.
I would say like, hey, here'swhat we tried, here's what
didn't work, here's what wetried, here's what didn't work,
here's what we learned, here'show we're pivoting.
Can you give us some of yourfeedback on that?
Because I think what a high networth donor and again, you've
had people on that have saidthis all the time they don't
just want to open theircheckbook.
(27:31):
Sure, they act like they madetheir money some way, and it was
usually using their brain, andso it's not just their money
that they have to give, but it'salso their expertise.
How do you use their expertise?
So if you invite them in asopposed to like keeping them at
arm's length, you have a much,much better chance of them
continuing the kind ofgenerosity that we're hoping
(27:52):
will fuel the growth that youwant to see.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
Okay.
So, as we wrap up, if somebodyis maybe thinking about scaling,
they have some big dreams.
They want to take theirorganization to the next level
and they wanted to talk to youor Catapult about that.
How did they find you?
How do we connect with you?
Tell us a little bit about thework that Catapult does.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, so number one, we have a whole book and we will
give it to you for free.
So it's a PDF book.
We have a hard copy of it aswell.
We will not give you that onefor free, but we'll give you the
PDF one and it's called ScalingNonprofits, and so I think I
can probably send it over to you, megan, and maybe you can put
it in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, we can put the link to that.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
That's a great place to start.
There are three sections inthat, each of which are
incredibly helpful as we'rethinking about scaling and
growth.
I think that the second way isyou can just go to our website,
wearecatapultorg, and we do alot of work around leadership
development.
We do a lot of work withstrategic planning, run
innovation and then some customwork around marketing and
(28:57):
program development and thingslike that, but the majority of
our work is all around scaling,innovation and strategic
planning.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Perfect, I love it.
Yes, we will definitely link toall of that in the show
description, so make sure youcheck that out, Doug, thank you
so much for joining us today.
I think this has been a greatdiscussion.
I'm excited to see what peopletake this advice and run with it
in their planning for 2025.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
That'd be great.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me.
I love talking about all thesethings and love all the
listeners who are listening.
Good luck in 2025.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yes, excellent.
Again, my guest has been DougPaul, who's one of the managing
partners at Catapult.
Thank you so much for joiningus, doug.
I really appreciate that and wewill see you all next time on
the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
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