June 27, 2025 • 27 mins
In this episode, Janelle Miller Moravec shares how she has not only survived but thrived in nonprofit leadership for over 15 years—defying the sector's alarming burnout trends. Her approach? Reimagining sustainability from the inside out. From rethinking productivity standards and tailoring support for novice clinicians to implementing a team-based supervisory model and using data to track burnout indicators, Janelle offers a powerful blueprint for building resilient, mission-driven organizations. Tune in to learn how modeling boundaries and staying the course can help your nonprofit—and your people—truly thrive.
Janelle Miller Moravec is the Executive Director of Youth & Family Counseling (YFC), a nonprofit mental health organization serving Lake County in the Chicagoland area. She leads a dedicated team of clinicians, staff, board members, and donors united by a shared mission to increase access to quality mental health care. Known for her innovative and compassionate leadership style, Janelle focuses on building supportive, data-informed systems that help both people and programs thrive.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Drowning in spreadsheets and manual
processes.
Bonterra Apricot is the smarter, faster way for nonprofits to
manage programs, track outcomesand actually show your impact.
Find out how at BonterraTechcomslash Nonprofit Hub.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Janelle
(00:22):
Miller-Moravec, who is theExecutive Director at Youth and
Family Counseling in Illinois.
I am really excited about thisconversation.
I know I say that a lot as weopen, but I think something
that's been really kind of heavyfor me lately is talking to so
many nonprofit leaders that areon the edge of burnout and who
are seeing that in their teams.
It's such a big issue fornonprofits right now that I'm
(00:46):
really excited to dig in withJanelle and give us all some
really practical kind oftakeaways about how we can
prevent that in ourselves and inour staffs, which I think is a
critical conversation fornonprofit leaders right now.
So, janelle, thank you so muchfor being here.
Welcome in, thanks, I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
This is one of my favorite topics Taking care of
my people.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Absolutely, and that is, I feel like you know.
Obviously I sit in theexecutive director role myself
and I have done that in multiplepieces of my career.
There is such a weight thatcomes with that.
So I'm really excited to kindof, if nothing else, let some
other executive directors knowthat they're not alone in that
struggle.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Exactly, thank you, it is a lonely seat.
Yes, right For sure.
It takes a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about yourself and
your nonprofit journey thatbrought us here today.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, so I'm an accidental nonprofit worker.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I hear that way more often than you would think.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Right, I know I totally fell into it by accident
, but I love it.
So I started actually as astudent worker in college.
I was assigned to thedevelopment office and just
absolutely loved the people Iworked with and then, when I got
to make choices about what Iwanted to do, found myself using
(02:07):
those connections and buildingon those relationships and
landing nonprofit job afternonprofit job, primarily in
fundraising, until 2009,.
When the executive director atYFC decided he was going to step
down and I knew exactly what Iwanted to do, I would say he
(02:28):
didn't do it the way I wouldhave done it.
I think there could have been alot more succession planning.
So I said would you please giveme this job, because I would do
X, y and Z?
And the board said please stepin and do it.
And so that was what 15 yearsago and I still love my job.
It's there are no two days thatare the same and no two years
(02:52):
that are the same.
But yet, with that said, Istill feel like I come back and
I do the same core things overand over again.
One of my executive coachessaid think about what worked
well for you and go back to that.
And that has become a realstrategy of mine of stopping and
thinking what has worked in thepast and what do I need to go
(03:12):
back to?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So here, I am Excellent.
And so here you are Now.
As we said at the top of theshow, nonprofit burnout across
the industry is real and thereare so many factors that
contribute to that.
Obviously it hasn't been agreat year for nonprofits in
general, so just the extrastress that has added is a lot.
But your folks, specificallyyour staff, are right on the
(03:36):
front lines in counseling withyouth and families.
They are taking on some reallyheavy pieces from the folks that
they're serving, and that'strue I mean that is true for so
many nonprofit workers.
You're right on the front lines, kind of dealing in a lot of
crisis moments or with folks whoare really struggling with
(03:58):
various pieces and elements oflife.
So talk to me a little bitabout I want to dig in on both
sides you as a leader, to makesure that your folks are taking
care of themselves and notburning out.
And then how have you managedthat for yourself as an
executive director for the last15 years?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean, we all get into nonprofit work because
we want to make a difference inthe world, right, right, so for
me, our mission at YFC is toopen doors to mental health care
.
We do that by providing mentalhealth care services, and it's
our strategies that really helpmake those services accessible,
affordable for people of allages and from all walks of life.
(04:39):
It's hard work.
So, because of the incrediblydiverse client population, we
have my team, the boots on theground, on the front lines,
those counselors, therapists,who are in the room.
They have to be able to pivotbetween working with, say, an
adult in one hour and then theyhave to pivot to maybe working
(05:01):
with a child, to maybe pivotingto work with, you know, a couple
back to a teenager.
They see five, six clients aday and in between there they've
got to do their notes.
They have to do all of thesethings.
They're hearing really heavystories.
It doesn't matter whatsocioeconomic group you're
(05:22):
coming from.
There is trauma and awfulstories everywhere and they
absorb them, and so I thinkthere are there's some key
things that any clinician needsto do to stay present and to be
able to come back the next day,and that is allow for breaks in
your day, maintain yourboundaries.
So that's we talk about at YFC.
(05:45):
We talk about that clinicalframework of holding that the 53
, 55-minute session so that youcan usher them out, take a
breath and usher in your nextclient.
It also means responding toclients appropriately, so
checking your email at thebeginning of the day, at the end
of the day, and responding, andnot responding when it's
(06:09):
appropriate.
Because in this day and age, asconsumers, we want an immediate
response, right, but whentherapists are in a session all
day, they're not going torespond.
And so one of the, I say Ithink, really important
components of that clinicalframework is this concept of
training and helping our clientshold what it is that they need
(06:32):
to talk about until the nextweek's session.
And so we have all these toolsfor them to stay connected.
We have, you know, text, wehave email, we have voicemail.
So we've had to sort ofrebalance.
What does that boundary looklike for our clinicians?
Because I need for them to beable to shut the door and go
home and not manage thoseclinical emergencies or clinical
(06:55):
reach outs all night, so thatthey can rest, recover, reset
and come back the next day.
We've done a lot of work inthinking about what both our
clinicians need and oursupervisors need, because our
supervisors that middlemanagement piece, they are the
secret sauce, they are key toeverything.
(07:19):
So at YFC we have a fairlylarge clinical team it's about
20 providers but we've brokenthem down into actually five
sub-teams and so each of thosesub-teams has a dedicated
supervisor and that supervisoris their person, that is their
person who delivers theirclinical supervision, is their
(07:42):
manager, their coach, theircheerleader, their growth expert
, growth coach, right.
So everyone is on a talentdevelopment track.
That supervisor is the personwho is guiding them so that
they're growing all the time,because we know that is what
makes people come back for more.
Is that growth?
(08:02):
And what can I do next?
Is what makes people come backfor more?
Is that growth and what can Ido next?
So I think middle managementand having an effective, strong
middle management structure forme is key.
But another big piece ismanageable work, sustainable
work.
So a long time ago, probablyback in 2015, my clinical
(08:23):
director at the time came to meand said probably back in 2015,
my clinical director at the timecame to me and said we cannot
make our productivity goals.
I was using industry standardsof 65% of a clinician's time
should be spent on directservice.
And she came back and she saidwe can't seem to get it done.
And I don't understand.
She said, no joke, she said itmust be me, so I will give you
(08:47):
my resignation.
I was like stop Time out.
No, I'm sure it's not you.
And what I empowered her to dois to go back and tear
everything apart and build itback up from the ground level.
And she did that.
And she did a time study,basically.
And she came back and shelooked at all of our clinicians
(09:09):
and she said there's no waywe're asking people to achieve
the impossible.
And so we recalculated andrestructured their days.
So a lot of it.
I think about my clinicians.
They're almost like teachers.
They have very prescribed days.
So we basically set up theirschedules for them.
You have an open, you have aclose, you have a prep hour, you
(09:33):
have your supervision, you haveyour consult hours.
We fill all of those into theschedule first, with what's left
, that's, your availability forappointments.
Now we also know that novicesort of those emerging new
professionals.
It takes them longer toaccomplish basic tasks right, so
(09:56):
it takes them longer to prep,it takes them longer to write
their notes, because they'relearning, they're developing
those skills, so we give themextra time.
Because they're learning,they're developing those skills,
so we give them extra time.
We actually have three levelsthat our clinicians operate at
different proficiency levels,and so we give the novices
(10:17):
double the documentation time,double the prep time than we
give the other clinicians, andso of course they're not
providing that 65% of their timeon direct service.
It might be 60.
It might be less, depending onwhere they are.
But when we do that and we makework manageable, we also say to
them we want you to work 40hours, not more, not less.
(10:38):
Here's how we want you to spendyour 40 hours and we make them
ask us if they're going to spendexcess hours.
So we really hold them to that.
If they're going to spendexcess hours, so we really hold
them to that.
We hold them to the boundaries.
Our supervisors are reviewingtheir time cards and their
schedules, finding out wherethey're out of alignment, and so
we really.
That's our commitment to ourtherapists is to not overburden
(11:01):
them, to make work manageableand by setting realistic
expectations they're successful,and then that makes them
satisfied and really goes a longway in developing that
self-confidence and allowingthem to stay for the long term.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
So I think you hit on something that can be a
struggle in nonprofit work ingeneral, even outside of the
counseling space, and that isthe idea that you know we're
doing good work, so we shouldsacrifice all our time for it,
right, and so I've seen so manynonprofits where, like you know,
we work 50, 60 hours a weekbecause the need is so great and
(11:40):
we just want to keep providing.
And that, I think, is where theburnout piece starts, because if
you are physically tired, thenit's harder to maintain that
mental stability.
Yeah, so what?
Tell me a little bit about howyou, in your culture, hold to
that, because, at least for me,when I have been in these roles
(12:01):
before, the because the need isso great, the pressure is so
like, how can we do more?
How can we do more and I know alot of executive directors are
fighting that with their boardwho's saying you know, we need
to do more, we need to have abigger impact, we need to
increase, and they're fightingthat pressure.
How do you, as the executivedirector, hold that tension of
(12:23):
like, yep, the need will alwaysbe there, but here's what we're
gonna do for our staff.
How do you process that tension?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
You're right.
Executive directors are oftencaught in between their boards
who are like, go faster, gofaster.
And their staff are like wait,stop, slow down.
This is too much.
Yeah, I am very fortunate that Ihave a board that I work very
well with and who understands,and I also am very upfront about
(12:53):
explaining how we choose whatwe work on and a lot of it is.
It's not working harder, it'sworking smarter, and sometimes
you have to slow down and stopin order to accomplish.
So we do spend a lot of timelooking at data and asking
ourselves are we getting theresults we want and, if not, why
(13:17):
?
And I don't do that in a vacuum.
So one strategy that I use tohelp me bring those two groups
together is I actually, Iliterally bring them together.
So what has worked well for meis when I bring everybody
together board and staff.
We try to do it about once ayear in a special retreat.
(13:39):
They get to know each otherbecause they haven't met each
other, and then we talk aboutwhere we've been, what we've
accomplished, and then what arethe next steps that we want to
take on our trajectory.
So we have our guiding pillarsand we have our vision and we
always talk about okay, so whatdo we do next?
And it's really important thatwe leave that meeting with
(14:02):
consensus, because the board hasto understand and they have to
raise that money right, theyhave to be excited about it and
secure the resources andunderstand the why.
And then the staff they have tocarry out those initiatives,
those strategies.
So bringing people together andgetting that consensus early on
(14:23):
in the planning is key.
It's key to buy in, it's key tounderstanding.
And then we go back and we dooperational planning, we look at
data, we do all of that.
But I have found that thatsaves me a lot of headaches and
it also helps the boardunderstand you know, gosh, this
(15:02):
is a really different world.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
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I like that call out because Ifeel like a lot of times the
(15:29):
board is this mythical, oftenanother like super disconnected,
the thing that like, oh, wedon't want to make the board mad
, right, but the board is thereto support, and so I think it's
important for staff to be ableto see them and have that
relationship and know thatthey're here to support the work
that you're doing and we haveto work together with them.
(15:50):
So I am all for anything thatbrings those two groups together
.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Well, and at the end of the day, I talk about us
being a puzzle and we're alldifferent pieces.
So I'm a different piece.
I have a different job than aboard member, than a middle
manager at YFC, then a you know,in the trenches clinician.
You need us all and we're just.
We just play different roles,and so making sure that we all
(16:16):
understand our roles is alsosuper important.
So we lean into that withreally good job descriptions,
reviewing those, making surethose are very visible and
transparent so that everybodyknows.
In my role, this is what I doto advance YFC.
Those are the same questions weask everybody, but it's going
(16:37):
to be different, right Based onyour role, what strengths you
bring, your experiences andhopefully those all mesh
together with your personalmotivation, whether you're a
board member or a staff member.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So I think one of the most recent statistics that I
saw on it said that the averageexecutive director in a
nonprofit right now the averagetenure is four years, whether
for burnout or I'm out of thesector, etc.
But four years.
You are at 15 years, which wellbeats the average.
Congratulations, thanks.
(17:13):
But talk to me a little bitabout how you then manage to
avoid that burnout in yourself,because you and I have said this
over and over again thatexecutive director is such a
lonely seat because you do haveto balance the board and their
expectations and your staff andyour middle managers and the
program and the expectations.
I can see why it's and I againI've sat there I know why it's
(17:37):
so easy to get burnt out in thatseat.
So what have you put in placefor yourself that has led you to
be able to have that kind oflongevity in that seat?
Led you to be able to have thatkind of longevity in that seat?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I have a lot of support.
I have a really amazing team ofdirectors who report into me.
They're amazing women and theystep in front of me and let me
do my thing, and I know thatwhen I don't have the right
people in those roles, thatthat's when I get burned out.
I lean very heavily on my teamand I lean heavily on my team at
(18:11):
home.
I have a you know.
My husband and my kids aresuper supportive, and so I would
say, yeah, I noticed that formyself.
I need to prioritize my work.
I need to do the things thatonly I can do and let other
people do the things that theycan't do.
That's a good call out.
(18:31):
That's really hard, but I'vegotten really used to doing that
now and I tried to flip itaround and use my curiosity,
because my number one strengthis learner and inputs.
Those are my two number two topones.
So I try to use my curiosity tolike well, how would you do
this and what can I learn fromyou?
And let me watch you do thatand learn from you.
I've also seen over the yearsthey make the same like
(18:53):
different people in the roles.
They're going to make the samemistakes that I've seen and
that's okay.
That's part of their learningjourney and I need to step aside
and let them do that.
I also have to model theboundaries.
So it was.
There was a day.
It was just a few weeks ago.
I actually posted about it onlinkedin, but my clinical
director and I we both ended upliterally in the middle of the
(19:15):
day shutting our computers andsaying we gotta go it like.
We're needed at home, we'reworking moms, and for my
clinical director it was a she'sgot littles, it was a sick kid,
and for me it was a phone callfrom my daughter telling me her
boyfriend had proposed.
So I write that, I model that,I shut it off and I'm like guys,
(19:36):
my family, this is.
I am not missing this moment no, that's a big deal.
I also know after 15 years it'sgoing to be there waiting for me
in the morning Like for real.
So I work hard, I work morethan 40 hours a week, but I
don't work 50.
(19:56):
And some weeks I work 35.
It's going to be there.
So I know the things that Iabsolutely must accomplish in my
week and I also know that theother stuff is going to be there
and if it sits and languishesin my Eisenhower matrix on my
not urgent, not important, it'sprobably not necessary to do
(20:19):
Right, and that's okay.
I've learned to let things go.
It's like good enough parentingright.
It's good enough executivedirector-ness right.
Because also, if I doeverything, I'm not allowing
space for other people to stepup and learn and figure things
out.
So there's more than one way toskin a cat.
My ultimate goal is that when Ileave that it will be just
(20:43):
seamless because I will haveallowed people to try things out
and I'm transparent enough, sothat's my goal.
I think that allowed people totry things out and I'm
transparent enough, so that's mygoal.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I think that's a really great call out, because
culture does start at the top,yeah, right, and that, how we
handle our employees and how weset those boundaries, all of
that has to come from the top.
It has to be modeled and younot just giving lip service to
it, but actually showing people.
This is what I, this is how wehandle this.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And I think that's where, as a leader I think
that's like we have the vision,we have to set the culture, but
then we also have to have thepolicies, yes, and then we have
to have the buy in of our middlemanagement, because they are
the ones who are holding it on aday to day basis.
I'm over there raising money,doing Janelle things, but I know
that my clinical supervisorsand my clinical director are
(21:36):
holding that framework andmaking sure that their team
doesn't burn out.
We're not a huge organization,right, but there may be 30 of us
.
So I hold I don't know maybefour or five people.
Each of them holds four or fivepeople, and so on down the way.
So if you do more than that,it's overwhelming.
We have to break it down andmake it manageable and know that
(21:57):
we take little steps,intentional steps forward.
You have to allow time to lookat data, reflect, look back, set
new goals.
Everything has got to.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
I think that's a great call out because I think
there is data to all of it.
Yes, right, when we talk aboutnonprofit burnout or we say, oh,
my staff is just reallystressed out, or whatever, that
tends to feel like a notquantifiable item, right.
But there are reasons behindall of it, and if you actually
(22:37):
go back to the data, yes, andinstead of just living in the
ethereal when we can break itdown to the practical, I think
that's a really good call outfor this discussion as well.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
We literally have a dashboard that we track.
So we track and see how manyexcess hours is everybody
working.
So one of the things also isyou have to be able to just work
one job, and so you have tomake a livable wage.
And so we track how are ourwages measuring against that
(23:08):
living wage threshold?
So we keep moving the needle.
How long do our employees stay?
Do they report burnout?
Do they report satisfactionwith their manager?
So we've tried to make it asmeasurable as possible, right?
So we want to avoid burnout, sowe're doing these things and
we're making work manageable.
(23:29):
We're trying to pay them aliving wage, we're trying to
implement an engaging cultureand we have measures for all of
those that we're watching.
Because, unless you say it, Imean, I guess one of my mantras
is plan your work, work yourplan, and that's really
(23:50):
important to have the data tolook back and say, okay, here's
how we know that we accomplishedwhat we set out to accomplish,
and listen.
This does not mean that myemployees are all happy all the
time.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Sure Right, it would be an ideal world, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
The work is hard, and I will say life is really hard,
especially as we get into aspace where we have with young
professionals.
They're coming in with adifferent level of proficiency
in resiliency and grit than whatI would say other generations
have.
It's just different, and so itcan be messy.
(24:25):
They may not.
It may be hard for them to bein that uncomfortable space of
working on themselves andworking on their clients yeah,
but that's really important.
Themselves and working on theirclients yeah, but that's really
important.
And also when we at YFC, one ofthe things that we're working on
is developing a staff thatlooks like the community we
serve, and so up here in LakeCounty, Illinois, we have an
(24:47):
incredibly diverse population,and so we want to have a staff
that reflects the diversity thatwe have in our community.
That's really hard, because weserve a lot of children and
adolescents and people of color,and it can be really messy.
And it's really hard as aclinician when you are doing
(25:11):
work all day during the day, andthen you go home and you're
doing that exact same work as aparent, as a member of your
community, and so that'ssomething I don't know, that we
haven't figured out yet, but weknow it's happening and we're
trying to figure out.
What else can we do to supportour team?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So good, janelle.
This has been fantastic.
I think, some really goodwisdom for executive directors
out there in how to model thatand how to put some of those
boundaries in place.
As we wrap up the question, Ihave been asking to everyone if
you could give one piece ofadvice to nonprofit leaders
right now.
What would that be?
Stick with it.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Stick with it, try to figure out how you can stay,
because I think our world needsus to stay and model, and it is
when you stay that organizationsreally thrive.
That's when you right, when youhave that longevity, that's
(26:14):
when you're able to innovate.
You have that longevity, that'swhen you're able to innovate,
and so things don't work andit's uncomfortable.
I've had total staff turnovertwo, if not three times in my
tenure.
It's not comfortable, it's noteasy and I've learned every time
and that, I think, makes me astronger leader and that makes
YFC a stronger organizationbecause of it.
(26:35):
So if possible, figure out howto take care of yourself so that
you can stay.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So good.
Thank you, janelle.
This is a super timelyconversation for our leaders.
I'm really excited for that,and thanks for sharing all your
wisdom.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Thank you.
This was so much fun Timeabsolutely flew by.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yes, again, my guest has been Janelle Miller-Morvec,
who's the executive director atYouth and Family Counseling in
Lake County, illinois.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
Drowning in spreadsheets and manual
processes.
Bonterra Apricot is the smarter, faster way for nonprofits to
manage programs, track outcomesand actually show your impact.
Find out how at BonterraTechcomslash Nonprofit Hub.
Welcome back to the NonprofitHub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear,joined today by Janelle
(00:22):
Miller-Moravec, who is theExecutive Director at Youth and
Family Counseling in Illinois.
I am really excited about thisconversation.
I know I say that a lot as weopen, but I think something
that's been really kind of heavyfor me lately is talking to so
many nonprofit leaders that areon the edge of burnout and who
are seeing that in their teams.
It's such a big issue fornonprofits right now that I'm
(00:46):
really excited to dig in withJanelle and give us all some
really practical kind oftakeaways about how we can
prevent that in ourselves and inour staffs, which I think is a
critical conversation fornonprofit leaders right now.
So, janelle, thank you so muchfor being here.
Welcome in, thanks, I'm excited.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
This is one of my favorite topics Taking care of
my people.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Absolutely, and that is, I feel like you know.
Obviously I sit in theexecutive director role myself
and I have done that in multiplepieces of my career.
There is such a weight thatcomes with that.
So I'm really excited to kindof, if nothing else, let some
other executive directors knowthat they're not alone in that
struggle.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Exactly, thank you, it is a lonely seat.
Yes, right For sure.
It takes a lot.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, so tell us a little bit about yourself and
your nonprofit journey thatbrought us here today.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Yeah, so I'm an accidental nonprofit worker.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I hear that way more often than you would think.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Right, I know I totally fell into it by accident
, but I love it.
So I started actually as astudent worker in college.
I was assigned to thedevelopment office and just
absolutely loved the people Iworked with and then, when I got
to make choices about what Iwanted to do, found myself using
(02:07):
those connections and buildingon those relationships and
landing nonprofit job afternonprofit job, primarily in
fundraising, until 2009,.
When the executive director atYFC decided he was going to step
down and I knew exactly what Iwanted to do, I would say he
(02:28):
didn't do it the way I wouldhave done it.
I think there could have been alot more succession planning.
So I said would you please giveme this job, because I would do
X, y and Z?
And the board said please stepin and do it.
And so that was what 15 yearsago and I still love my job.
It's there are no two days thatare the same and no two years
(02:52):
that are the same.
But yet, with that said, Istill feel like I come back and
I do the same core things overand over again.
One of my executive coachessaid think about what worked
well for you and go back to that.
And that has become a realstrategy of mine of stopping and
thinking what has worked in thepast and what do I need to go
(03:12):
back to?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So here, I am Excellent.
And so here you are Now.
As we said at the top of theshow, nonprofit burnout across
the industry is real and thereare so many factors that
contribute to that.
Obviously it hasn't been agreat year for nonprofits in
general, so just the extrastress that has added is a lot.
But your folks, specificallyyour staff, are right on the
(03:36):
front lines in counseling withyouth and families.
They are taking on some reallyheavy pieces from the folks that
they're serving, and that'strue I mean that is true for so
many nonprofit workers.
You're right on the front lines, kind of dealing in a lot of
crisis moments or with folks whoare really struggling with
(03:58):
various pieces and elements oflife.
So talk to me a little bitabout I want to dig in on both
sides you as a leader, to makesure that your folks are taking
care of themselves and notburning out.
And then how have you managedthat for yourself as an
executive director for the last15 years?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, I mean, we all get into nonprofit work because
we want to make a difference inthe world, right, right, so for
me, our mission at YFC is toopen doors to mental health care
.
We do that by providing mentalhealth care services, and it's
our strategies that really helpmake those services accessible,
affordable for people of allages and from all walks of life.
(04:39):
It's hard work.
So, because of the incrediblydiverse client population, we
have my team, the boots on theground, on the front lines,
those counselors, therapists,who are in the room.
They have to be able to pivotbetween working with, say, an
adult in one hour and then theyhave to pivot to maybe working
(05:01):
with a child, to maybe pivotingto work with, you know, a couple
back to a teenager.
They see five, six clients aday and in between there they've
got to do their notes.
They have to do all of thesethings.
They're hearing really heavystories.
It doesn't matter whatsocioeconomic group you're
(05:22):
coming from.
There is trauma and awfulstories everywhere and they
absorb them, and so I thinkthere are there's some key
things that any clinician needsto do to stay present and to be
able to come back the next day,and that is allow for breaks in
your day, maintain yourboundaries.
So that's we talk about at YFC.
(05:45):
We talk about that clinicalframework of holding that the 53
, 55-minute session so that youcan usher them out, take a
breath and usher in your nextclient.
It also means responding toclients appropriately, so
checking your email at thebeginning of the day, at the end
of the day, and responding, andnot responding when it's
(06:09):
appropriate.
Because in this day and age, asconsumers, we want an immediate
response, right, but whentherapists are in a session all
day, they're not going torespond.
And so one of the, I say Ithink, really important
components of that clinicalframework is this concept of
training and helping our clientshold what it is that they need
(06:32):
to talk about until the nextweek's session.
And so we have all these toolsfor them to stay connected.
We have, you know, text, wehave email, we have voicemail.
So we've had to sort ofrebalance.
What does that boundary looklike for our clinicians?
Because I need for them to beable to shut the door and go
home and not manage thoseclinical emergencies or clinical
(06:55):
reach outs all night, so thatthey can rest, recover, reset
and come back the next day.
We've done a lot of work inthinking about what both our
clinicians need and oursupervisors need, because our
supervisors that middlemanagement piece, they are the
secret sauce, they are key toeverything.
(07:19):
So at YFC we have a fairlylarge clinical team it's about
20 providers but we've brokenthem down into actually five
sub-teams and so each of thosesub-teams has a dedicated
supervisor and that supervisoris their person, that is their
person who delivers theirclinical supervision, is their
(07:42):
manager, their coach, theircheerleader, their growth expert
, growth coach, right.
So everyone is on a talentdevelopment track.
That supervisor is the personwho is guiding them so that
they're growing all the time,because we know that is what
makes people come back for more.
Is that growth?
(08:02):
And what can I do next?
Is what makes people come backfor more?
Is that growth and what can Ido next?
So I think middle managementand having an effective, strong
middle management structure forme is key.
But another big piece ismanageable work, sustainable
work.
So a long time ago, probablyback in 2015, my clinical
(08:23):
director at the time came to meand said probably back in 2015,
my clinical director at the timecame to me and said we cannot
make our productivity goals.
I was using industry standardsof 65% of a clinician's time
should be spent on directservice.
And she came back and she saidwe can't seem to get it done.
And I don't understand.
She said, no joke, she said itmust be me, so I will give you
(08:47):
my resignation.
I was like stop Time out.
No, I'm sure it's not you.
And what I empowered her to dois to go back and tear
everything apart and build itback up from the ground level.
And she did that.
And she did a time study,basically.
And she came back and shelooked at all of our clinicians
(09:09):
and she said there's no waywe're asking people to achieve
the impossible.
And so we recalculated andrestructured their days.
So a lot of it.
I think about my clinicians.
They're almost like teachers.
They have very prescribed days.
So we basically set up theirschedules for them.
You have an open, you have aclose, you have a prep hour, you
(09:33):
have your supervision, you haveyour consult hours.
We fill all of those into theschedule first, with what's left
, that's, your availability forappointments.
Now we also know that novicesort of those emerging new
professionals.
It takes them longer toaccomplish basic tasks right, so
(09:56):
it takes them longer to prep,it takes them longer to write
their notes, because they'relearning, they're developing
those skills, so we give themextra time.
Because they're learning,they're developing those skills,
so we give them extra time.
We actually have three levelsthat our clinicians operate at
different proficiency levels,and so we give the novices
(10:17):
double the documentation time,double the prep time than we
give the other clinicians, andso of course they're not
providing that 65% of their timeon direct service.
It might be 60.
It might be less, depending onwhere they are.
But when we do that and we makework manageable, we also say to
them we want you to work 40hours, not more, not less.
(10:38):
Here's how we want you to spendyour 40 hours and we make them
ask us if they're going to spendexcess hours.
So we really hold them to that.
If they're going to spendexcess hours, so we really hold
them to that.
We hold them to the boundaries.
Our supervisors are reviewingtheir time cards and their
schedules, finding out wherethey're out of alignment, and so
we really.
That's our commitment to ourtherapists is to not overburden
(11:01):
them, to make work manageableand by setting realistic
expectations they're successful,and then that makes them
satisfied and really goes a longway in developing that
self-confidence and allowingthem to stay for the long term.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
So I think you hit on something that can be a
struggle in nonprofit work ingeneral, even outside of the
counseling space, and that isthe idea that you know we're
doing good work, so we shouldsacrifice all our time for it,
right, and so I've seen so manynonprofits where, like you know,
we work 50, 60 hours a weekbecause the need is so great and
(11:40):
we just want to keep providing.
And that, I think, is where theburnout piece starts, because if
you are physically tired, thenit's harder to maintain that
mental stability.
Yeah, so what?
Tell me a little bit about howyou, in your culture, hold to
that, because, at least for me,when I have been in these roles
(12:01):
before, the because the need isso great, the pressure is so
like, how can we do more?
How can we do more and I know alot of executive directors are
fighting that with their boardwho's saying you know, we need
to do more, we need to have abigger impact, we need to
increase, and they're fightingthat pressure.
How do you, as the executivedirector, hold that tension of
(12:23):
like, yep, the need will alwaysbe there, but here's what we're
gonna do for our staff.
How do you process that tension?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
You're right.
Executive directors are oftencaught in between their boards
who are like, go faster, gofaster.
And their staff are like wait,stop, slow down.
This is too much.
Yeah, I am very fortunate that Ihave a board that I work very
well with and who understands,and I also am very upfront about
(12:53):
explaining how we choose whatwe work on and a lot of it is.
It's not working harder, it'sworking smarter, and sometimes
you have to slow down and stopin order to accomplish.
So we do spend a lot of timelooking at data and asking
ourselves are we getting theresults we want and, if not, why
(13:17):
?
And I don't do that in a vacuum.
So one strategy that I use tohelp me bring those two groups
together is I actually, Iliterally bring them together.
So what has worked well for meis when I bring everybody
together board and staff.
We try to do it about once ayear in a special retreat.
(13:39):
They get to know each otherbecause they haven't met each
other, and then we talk aboutwhere we've been, what we've
accomplished, and then what arethe next steps that we want to
take on our trajectory.
So we have our guiding pillarsand we have our vision and we
always talk about okay, so whatdo we do next?
And it's really important thatwe leave that meeting with
(14:02):
consensus, because the board hasto understand and they have to
raise that money right, theyhave to be excited about it and
secure the resources andunderstand the why.
And then the staff they have tocarry out those initiatives,
those strategies.
So bringing people together andgetting that consensus early on
(14:23):
in the planning is key.
It's key to buy in, it's key tounderstanding.
And then we go back and we dooperational planning, we look at
data, we do all of that.
But I have found that thatsaves me a lot of headaches and
it also helps the boardunderstand you know, gosh, this
(15:02):
is a really different world.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Unlock more funding With tools built for real
nonprofit workflows and trustedby over 3,400 organizations.
It helps your team grow yourimpact and better serve your
community.
You can meet us atbonterratechcom slash nonprofit
hub today.
I like that call out because Ifeel like a lot of times the
(15:29):
board is this mythical, oftenanother like super disconnected,
the thing that like, oh, wedon't want to make the board mad
, right, but the board is thereto support, and so I think it's
important for staff to be ableto see them and have that
relationship and know thatthey're here to support the work
that you're doing and we haveto work together with them.
(15:50):
So I am all for anything thatbrings those two groups together
.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Well, and at the end of the day, I talk about us
being a puzzle and we're alldifferent pieces.
So I'm a different piece.
I have a different job than aboard member, than a middle
manager at YFC, then a you know,in the trenches clinician.
You need us all and we're just.
We just play different roles,and so making sure that we all
(16:16):
understand our roles is alsosuper important.
So we lean into that withreally good job descriptions,
reviewing those, making surethose are very visible and
transparent so that everybodyknows.
In my role, this is what I doto advance YFC.
Those are the same questions weask everybody, but it's going
(16:37):
to be different, right Based onyour role, what strengths you
bring, your experiences andhopefully those all mesh
together with your personalmotivation, whether you're a
board member or a staff member.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So I think one of the most recent statistics that I
saw on it said that the averageexecutive director in a
nonprofit right now the averagetenure is four years, whether
for burnout or I'm out of thesector, etc.
But four years.
You are at 15 years, which wellbeats the average.
Congratulations, thanks.
(17:13):
But talk to me a little bitabout how you then manage to
avoid that burnout in yourself,because you and I have said this
over and over again thatexecutive director is such a
lonely seat because you do haveto balance the board and their
expectations and your staff andyour middle managers and the
program and the expectations.
I can see why it's and I againI've sat there I know why it's
(17:37):
so easy to get burnt out in thatseat.
So what have you put in placefor yourself that has led you to
be able to have that kind oflongevity in that seat?
Led you to be able to have thatkind of longevity in that seat?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
I have a lot of support.
I have a really amazing team ofdirectors who report into me.
They're amazing women and theystep in front of me and let me
do my thing, and I know thatwhen I don't have the right
people in those roles, thatthat's when I get burned out.
I lean very heavily on my teamand I lean heavily on my team at
(18:11):
home.
I have a you know.
My husband and my kids aresuper supportive, and so I would
say, yeah, I noticed that formyself.
I need to prioritize my work.
I need to do the things thatonly I can do and let other
people do the things that theycan't do.
That's a good call out.
(18:31):
That's really hard, but I'vegotten really used to doing that
now and I tried to flip itaround and use my curiosity,
because my number one strengthis learner and inputs.
Those are my two number two topones.
So I try to use my curiosity tolike well, how would you do
this and what can I learn fromyou?
And let me watch you do thatand learn from you.
I've also seen over the yearsthey make the same like
(18:53):
different people in the roles.
They're going to make the samemistakes that I've seen and
that's okay.
That's part of their learningjourney and I need to step aside
and let them do that.
I also have to model theboundaries.
So it was.
There was a day.
It was just a few weeks ago.
I actually posted about it onlinkedin, but my clinical
director and I we both ended upliterally in the middle of the
(19:15):
day shutting our computers andsaying we gotta go it like.
We're needed at home, we'reworking moms, and for my
clinical director it was a she'sgot littles, it was a sick kid,
and for me it was a phone callfrom my daughter telling me her
boyfriend had proposed.
So I write that, I model that,I shut it off and I'm like guys,
(19:36):
my family, this is.
I am not missing this moment no, that's a big deal.
I also know after 15 years it'sgoing to be there waiting for me
in the morning Like for real.
So I work hard, I work morethan 40 hours a week, but I
don't work 50.
(19:56):
And some weeks I work 35.
It's going to be there.
So I know the things that Iabsolutely must accomplish in my
week and I also know that theother stuff is going to be there
and if it sits and languishesin my Eisenhower matrix on my
not urgent, not important, it'sprobably not necessary to do
(20:19):
Right, and that's okay.
I've learned to let things go.
It's like good enough parentingright.
It's good enough executivedirector-ness right.
Because also, if I doeverything, I'm not allowing
space for other people to stepup and learn and figure things
out.
So there's more than one way toskin a cat.
My ultimate goal is that when Ileave that it will be just
(20:43):
seamless because I will haveallowed people to try things out
and I'm transparent enough, sothat's my goal.
I think that allowed people totry things out and I'm
transparent enough, so that's mygoal.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
I think that's a really great call out, because
culture does start at the top,yeah, right, and that, how we
handle our employees and how weset those boundaries, all of
that has to come from the top.
It has to be modeled and younot just giving lip service to
it, but actually showing people.
This is what I, this is how wehandle this.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And I think that's where, as a leader I think
that's like we have the vision,we have to set the culture, but
then we also have to have thepolicies, yes, and then we have
to have the buy in of our middlemanagement, because they are
the ones who are holding it on aday to day basis.
I'm over there raising money,doing Janelle things, but I know
that my clinical supervisorsand my clinical director are
(21:36):
holding that framework andmaking sure that their team
doesn't burn out.
We're not a huge organization,right, but there may be 30 of us
.
So I hold I don't know maybefour or five people.
Each of them holds four or fivepeople, and so on down the way.
So if you do more than that,it's overwhelming.
We have to break it down andmake it manageable and know that
(21:57):
we take little steps,intentional steps forward.
You have to allow time to lookat data, reflect, look back, set
new goals.
Everything has got to.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
I think that's a great call out because I think
there is data to all of it.
Yes, right, when we talk aboutnonprofit burnout or we say, oh,
my staff is just reallystressed out, or whatever, that
tends to feel like a notquantifiable item, right.
But there are reasons behindall of it, and if you actually
(22:37):
go back to the data, yes, andinstead of just living in the
ethereal when we can break itdown to the practical, I think
that's a really good call outfor this discussion as well.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
We literally have a dashboard that we track.
So we track and see how manyexcess hours is everybody
working.
So one of the things also isyou have to be able to just work
one job, and so you have tomake a livable wage.
And so we track how are ourwages measuring against that
(23:08):
living wage threshold?
So we keep moving the needle.
How long do our employees stay?
Do they report burnout?
Do they report satisfactionwith their manager?
So we've tried to make it asmeasurable as possible, right?
So we want to avoid burnout, sowe're doing these things and
we're making work manageable.
(23:29):
We're trying to pay them aliving wage, we're trying to
implement an engaging cultureand we have measures for all of
those that we're watching.
Because, unless you say it, Imean, I guess one of my mantras
is plan your work, work yourplan, and that's really
(23:50):
important to have the data tolook back and say, okay, here's
how we know that we accomplishedwhat we set out to accomplish,
and listen.
This does not mean that myemployees are all happy all the
time.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Sure Right, it would be an ideal world, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
The work is hard, and I will say life is really hard,
especially as we get into aspace where we have with young
professionals.
They're coming in with adifferent level of proficiency
in resiliency and grit than whatI would say other generations
have.
It's just different, and so itcan be messy.
(24:25):
They may not.
It may be hard for them to bein that uncomfortable space of
working on themselves andworking on their clients yeah,
but that's really important.
Themselves and working on theirclients yeah, but that's really
important.
And also when we at YFC, one ofthe things that we're working on
is developing a staff thatlooks like the community we
serve, and so up here in LakeCounty, Illinois, we have an
(24:47):
incredibly diverse population,and so we want to have a staff
that reflects the diversity thatwe have in our community.
That's really hard, because weserve a lot of children and
adolescents and people of color,and it can be really messy.
And it's really hard as aclinician when you are doing
(25:11):
work all day during the day, andthen you go home and you're
doing that exact same work as aparent, as a member of your
community, and so that'ssomething I don't know, that we
haven't figured out yet, but weknow it's happening and we're
trying to figure out.
What else can we do to supportour team?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So good, janelle.
This has been fantastic.
I think, some really goodwisdom for executive directors
out there in how to model thatand how to put some of those
boundaries in place.
As we wrap up the question, Ihave been asking to everyone if
you could give one piece ofadvice to nonprofit leaders
right now.
What would that be?
Stick with it.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Stick with it, try to figure out how you can stay,
because I think our world needsus to stay and model, and it is
when you stay that organizationsreally thrive.
That's when you right, when youhave that longevity, that's
(26:14):
when you're able to innovate.
You have that longevity, that'swhen you're able to innovate,
and so things don't work andit's uncomfortable.
I've had total staff turnovertwo, if not three times in my
tenure.
It's not comfortable, it's noteasy and I've learned every time
and that, I think, makes me astronger leader and that makes
YFC a stronger organizationbecause of it.
(26:35):
So if possible, figure out howto take care of yourself so that
you can stay.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
So good.
Thank you, janelle.
This is a super timelyconversation for our leaders.
I'm really excited for that,and thanks for sharing all your
wisdom.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Thank you.
This was so much fun Timeabsolutely flew by.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yes, again, my guest has been Janelle Miller-Morvec,
who's the executive director atYouth and Family Counseling in
Lake County, illinois.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Radio
Podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
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