Join us for an enlightening conversation with Malcolm Sproull, a fundraising enterprise architect whose journey from the commercial sector to the nonprofit world is nothing short of inspiring. Malcolm's insights, drawn from his Scottish-Irish heritage and his grandmother's teachings on generosity, offer a profound understanding of philanthropy's cultural nuances. As he discusses his book "Cracking Generosity," Malcolm unveils the unique challenges nonprofits face, including the critical need for infrastructure to manage cash flow—key insights for anyone in the nonprofit sector or interested in philanthropy. This episode promises to equip listeners with valuable knowledge on building trust with donors and crafting sustainable fundraising strategies, making it a must-listen for those dedicated to making a difference in the nonprofit world. Discover how nonprofit boards can transform their organizations by fostering a culture of generosity, even when they lack a philanthropic background.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andjoining me today is Malcolm
Sproul who, title-wise, I'm sointerested to dig into this as a
fundraising enterprisearchitect.
This is not a title I've everheard of before, so I'm very
excited to dig into that andalso to have a chance to talk
about his new book, crackingGenerosity.
(00:56):
So we are very excited to haveyou join us all the way from New
Zealand.
I think you are actually myfirst international guest on the
podcast, at least this year.
Malcolm, welcome in.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Thank you so much.
It's a very big privilege to bepart of this.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, my pleasure.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour journey in the nonprofit
world and what led you toauthoring this book.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Well, if I work backwards from the job title,
fundraising, enterpriseArchitect is a rather grand
title, I think you'll agree.
But it's the end result of mespending 20 plus years in the
non-profit sector here in NewZealand after having come out of
the commercial sector in salesand marketing, and my background
is business and revenuegeneration, profit making that
(01:42):
sort of thing, and so when I gotinto the non-profit sector, I
found that there was an absenceof the infrastructure needed to
manage cash flow and enthusepeople to give money to your
good cause, and there was amarvellous supply of
extraordinarily passionatepeople, but there was a real
(02:03):
weakness in the systems andprocesses the boring stuff
actually, that keeps the wheelturning, and I don't want to say
that I'm boring, but somepeople do.
My children do sometimes,that's universal, regardless of
what country.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
It's a fair and child's play.
Yeah, that's the universalstandard.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Oh yeah, man, you're boring Dad.
But anyway, my interest is inthe detail of the mechanisms
that actually keep the cash flowgoing, and that's everything
inside a non-profit fundraisingside of the equation.
It's not just the specificmethod by which you pull the
(02:43):
money out maybe a gala or amajor donor program, it's all of
those.
So I jumped into the non-profitsector, straight out of the
commercial sector, into my firstnon-profit in 2002.
And quite honestly, it was acombination of shocking new and
wonderful, because I fell inlove with philanthropic people.
(03:07):
You know it was so different todealing with folk in the
commercial sector who were sortof just, you know, consumer,
profit-oriented, let's make moremoney kind of people you know.
And then I found these humanbeings in the country who would
be intentionally setting asidemoney in their lifestyle to give
(03:27):
it away to good causes.
I mean, they were setting uptheir finances to intentionally
give money away.
And that aligned beautifullywith my grandmother's teachings
when I was 15.
She had a finger like that infront of my face at 15 saying
Malcolm, there's only one goodreason to make more money than
you need and that's so you'vegot more to give away.
And that was her principle.
(03:50):
So I blame my grandmother forbeing in this interview today,
so it's her fault.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It's a good call out to be, though, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Because she ultimately sewed that into us
that making money is one thing,but when you're making money,
put some aside.
To be given away was anintegrated part of our culture,
and so this is my expression ofa career shift and a job that I
hope honors my grandmother.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I love that so much.
What a great philosophy.
And everyone wants to talkabout the legacy that they leave
behind.
But here you are.
I'm assuming a lot older, not alot older, but definitely above
15.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Have a look at this.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, it's been there that you're still impacted by
that, so much so that you'veturned around and made a career
out of it.
So I'm sure that she would bevery proud to know that legacy
is living on.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I hope so, and she meant a lot to me.
I mean she was a very big partof my youth.
But there was a cultural thingthat was Scottish Irish in its
origins you know we were acolony of the British Empire
here.
You know we were a colony ofthe British Empire here and they
brought with them from Irelandand Scotland the idea that you
know, we are on a bound andthere's a duty of care for your
(05:17):
neighbour, and so everybody cameover with a culture of looking
after one another and a littlebit of setting aside money to
help one another out when timeswere down.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You know was part of that culture and it's part of
that that I'm trying to, I guess, continue.
Yeah, that's great.
So, before we dig too far intothe book itself, I'm curious to
hear from your perspective,perspective when we talk about
generosity, yeah, that being avalue, I think it's interesting
that you point back to thescotch, irish roots and that's
something that that honor andthat duty was very much a part
(05:54):
of that culture and then itinfiltrated through, you know,
down the generations across theworld, down to new zealand.
I'm curious to hear yourthoughts on, as you have studied
, the cracking of generosity,which I'm going to assume you've
cracked the code.
I don't want to pat myself onthe back but I think I have yes.
(06:16):
Yeah, is that something that yousee applicable, like would it
be as applicable to cracking thecode here in the us, or is it
culturally to europe, to newzealand?
Is generosity culture based oris it something that where the
formula is going to work becausegenerosity at its core is such
(06:37):
a human value?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Really good question.
Love that, Thank you.
What I've found is so.
My research here in New Zealandis based on 10 charities that I
worked in and observed from theinside over a 20-year period.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
But during that time I also researched the global
nature of philanthropy andgenerosity and there's an awful
lot of common denominators.
So you know, let's have a lookat America, for example USA,
canada both essentially coloniesthat had people migrate from
(07:11):
Europe to fill them up right,and those people came to those
colonies with the culture fromthat European foundation, and
that European foundation,depending on your roots, had a
lot of philanthropy, was anintegrated part, or sort of
generosity was an integratedpart of how society functioned
once upon a time.
(07:31):
So they brought that with themand what I found when I've been
talking with folk from theStates, from Canada and from
Australia and from the UK, southAfrica, all over the place,
there's a real commonality aboutwhat I call citizen generosity.
The biggest barrier isn't theabsence of that culture.
The biggest barrier is thatconstant issue of trust.
(07:53):
I'm keen to support financiallya thing that really matters in
my heart, but can I trust thatorganization to apply that money
the way I would like it to beapplied?
And you know that kind of issueis the battle, but in a country
like New Zealand.
The other thing about NewZealand as a society from which
(08:13):
the lessons can be appliedglobally is that we are a guinea
pig society.
It's a bit of a strange thing.
I mean, while we've also madeLord of the Rings and Peter
Jackson's world famous out ofNew Zealand and movies, I hate
to tell you this, but Yogi Bearwas filmed down here, you know.
Just so you know.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Really.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
And the last Yogi Bear movie.
You know so, the all timeAmerican Yogi Bear here in New
Zealand.
So a heap of movies shot herethat are made to look like
they're in the States becausewe've got landscape that's
really quite beautiful.
But apart from that, we've gotcitizens in New Zealand who are
very much globetrotters.
We're 5 million people in NewZealand and 1 million of us live
(08:56):
overseas, and pretty much 3million of the 5 million who
live here have done what theycall an OE overseas experience.
They travel the globe.
We travel quite a lot so we'rewell-versed with the nature of
other countries and othercultures.
But we're also a replica.
We're also a nice little modelof consumer minds that are not
(09:19):
too different from anybody else.
In Pittsburgh we buy the samestuff, we eat the same food, we
consume in a similar fashion,and so there's real parallels
and so it's kind of, you know,white, anglo-saxon, protestant
worldview Plonked, plonked hereand replicated there.
You know so the data I've foundand accumulated for the book.
(09:41):
When I've presented it topeople in Oxford, in the UK, or
people in Canada or in Australia, they go oh yeah, that's us,
because we've got some realcommonality, and a lot of that
commonality does come from thecolonial nature of those places.
The roots are all quite similar, are all quite similar, and so
(10:06):
I've found that when I've testedthese 12 steps of my book with
people across the globe, itresonates in pretty much every
country.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So when we talk about this concept of generosity,
then, especially around I needto trust that organization to be
a good steward of the moneythat I am being generous with.
Are there common traits thatyou have as you've studied these
organizations over the courseof the last 20 years?
(10:33):
Are there common traits thatyou have found to be successful
in building trust?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yes, there is.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Well, I hate to make it as simple as this.
I mean, hopefully people aretaking note or listening.
I think it's oversimplistic,but it was a conversation with
an old man in that first year inmy nonprofit experience.
I was on the phone doingtelemarketing, which you do.
You're ringing up potential.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you're right.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, no.
And so I'm ringing this old guyup and I'm doing my sales pitch
(11:08):
as if I was in the commercialworld and he interrupts me.
He says, malcolm, look, I'm 84years old, I could die tomorrow.
In other words, can you get tothe point Spit up?
So I spit up and he says, look,all we old philanthropic people
need to know is the answer totwo questions Will my money do
what you say it will do, and canyou prove it?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And I said, okay, yes , you know I can answer those
two questions.
And so I did.
And he said can you answer themquickly too, by the way?
And so I did.
And he said, okay, how much doyou need and when do you need it
?
And through that conversation,my eyes opened.
At the end of the day, allwe've got to be is an
(11:53):
infrastructure and enterpriseand organisation which answers
those two questions.
And you've got yourself.
You're connecting with peoplewho are predisposed to want
generosity to happen in theworld.
I think there's a genetic kindof predisposition, there's a
behavioural predisposition.
I think we rank a lot of peopleas not being generous.
(12:14):
But when you give people achance and they connect with
something in their life that has, in their life journey, already
predisposed them to want to seea thing go in a good way, then
you trigger and match that andbingo, this person who looked
like a bit of a hard-nosedcharacter turns into a generous
(12:34):
human being.
And it's about finding thatmatch for a start.
And when you've got that match,you've got two questions to
answer and it's the as those twoquestions will my money do what
you say it will do, and can youprove it?
And if your organization isstructured to to answer those
two questions, then trust builds.
The only other factor that'sneeded in there is the time
factor, because you know my84-year-old friend who's long
(13:00):
past his history of giving wentback 50-odd years in his life.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
When I got to know him a bit more and his way of
testing the waters was testingthe waters, he would go okay,
you look like you're doingsomething in the world that I
like to see get done, I'll throwyou some money to test the
waters.
And sometimes he was a classicin that sometimes he'd be giving
(13:25):
50 bucks here and 100 bucksthere and test the waters and
he'd wait a year or two to seewhat came back and then suddenly
he wrote a $50,000 check.
Wow, you know, because you hadanswered his two questions Is my
money doing what you said itwould do and are you proving it?
The end here's more money.
(13:51):
And that generosity is thenature of, I think, the nature
of generosity that I've seen andheard of and had reported from
all parts of the world, reallyFolk who live everywhere you
know.
So, yeah, that's that simple.
I think, and I hate to say it,it's that simple.
And I would say that 90% of thework I undertake in building
infrastructures, in fundraisingenterprises, is to address those
(14:13):
two questions.
Almost 90% of it it's gettingfolk inside the organisations to
think in terms of the worldviewof the donor and constantly
that donor's questions are ontheir mind, you know, and not
look every day through your eyesat the world, but through the
eyes of that donor looking atyou.
Yeah, and then what is youraccounting practice doing to
(14:36):
support those two questions?
What is your marketing doing tosupport those two questions?
What is your staffcommunication and culture doing
to support those two questions?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I think my I would say experientially or
anecdotally what I have seen tobe true is that we are all
pretty good at answering thefirst one Is it going to do what
you say it's going to do, yes?
We're not as good at the secondone, which is those ways to
(15:08):
prove it and showcase data thatsays yep, this is the thing we
set out to do and here's how itwent.
I think the gap is in closingthe loop around that proof of
concept.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Absolutely 100% on, monique, you're 100% right.
One of the biggest weaknessesthat causes that fragility in
that side of the equation is alack of discipline in the
methods by which you get backand report.
One of the barriers is theturnover of staff in the
nonprofit fundraising arena.
(15:41):
You know, in the States I thinkyou're looking at, you know 18
months to 24 months is theaverage survival rate of a
person in the fundraising sideof the equation.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
That's just so sad.
It's really hard to build thatmomentum if you're constantly
having staff turnover that way.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
A huge problem, huge problem.
But then again, you know,you've got to look at why that
turnover is, and I've found someexamples again when that
infrastructure of you know theenterprise is designed with that
as a concern and something toaddress.
You know, we've gotorganisations here where you've
got people who have been infundraising for 14 years in one
(16:19):
organisation and they've stayedstable.
And the reason they've stayedstable is because, more to do
with infrastructure design thanyou know, that's enabled their
passion to be nourished.
I mean, there's these humanbeings who come in and work in a
non-profit to raise funds for acharitable cause.
You know, first of all I justwant to hug every one of them,
(16:42):
you know.
So one big global hug toeverybody who's doing that right
at this moment.
You are a precious human beingand that's all I can say.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And your work matters .
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And your work Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
In magic ways.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yes, yeah, yeah yeah, and your work matters, and your
work absolutely matters.
And there's four words.
Four words I want to pour ontop of you, and that's to
cherish, nurture, preserve andprotect you.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And if you have an infrastructure that cherishes,
nurtures, preserves and protectsyour fundraising people, that's
a key part of the design workI'm looking at is, you know, and
trying to bring in is howcherish, nurture, preserve,
protect right, so that oh mygosh, can you just I can just
(17:29):
try to envision what it wouldlook like if all of our
non-profits had a culture builtaround that for their
fundraisers and the input thatchange that that would make
their ability to raise funds ohmy gosh.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well, because ultimately, what folk are trying
to do, I've seen so many peoplestep in and give it a go and
then get burned out.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
The sadness.
I'm actually 21.
This is the result of me goinginto the non-profit sector.
But the delightful nature ofthese human beings going in
there has just thrilled me on somany occasions.
(18:10):
When I meet them and what I seeis that they encounter an
infrastructure and an enterprisewhich does not welcome them, it
does not cherish them, it doesnot nurture them, it does not
preserve them, it does notprotect them.
And that absence is correctablebecause what you've got there in
(18:32):
that beautiful human beingwho's walked in the door to say
can I help, how can I help you?
And I want to work infundraising and all of that sort
of stuff Is failing to seeinside that person a unique
giftedness that they walked inthe door with.
And we're all going to havesome degree of naivety about how
(18:52):
we enter into these places.
I have to say that that was mecertainly in the first year, but
I was fortunate.
I was really fortunate and thefirst nonprofit I worked in.
I was there for five years andI was wait for it cherished,
nurtured, preserved andprotected.
The difference that made to thefoundational desire for me to
(19:14):
continue in this work wasphenomenal.
Now I went into other charitieswhere that was not the case and
the organization spat me out ina certain period of time, but I
was able to measure.
Well, I was able to learn fromthose experiences and that's the
learning that's inside the book.
So what we are losing is anawful lot of marvelous talent,
(19:41):
the hearts of these people, man,I go back to my big global hug.
I just love them to bits.
I'm telling you right now, andwhat's failing them has really
kind of annoyed me and driven meto the writing of this book, to
the writing of this book.
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Speaker 2 (20:44):
So talk to me a little bit about the book itself
, then.
So is the audience, those folkswho are on the front lines and
deserve that giant hug, or is itmaybe the bosses above them who
are creating the culture thatis causing them to need these
giant hugs?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
and okay, you're gonna.
You're gonna touch some nerves,megan, this is gonna go okay I
like to stir the pot where I cangood on you, good on you, good
on you who's the key audience?
Okay, Well, they're all of thosepeople you just mentioned.
Thanks, inside, there I have.
(21:21):
The book is divided into twosections.
The first section is my kind oflearning curve and discovering
of citizen generosity and whatit looked like and what's the
actual potential of Joe Citizenand Josephine Citizen, and they
were giving potential.
That's sitting there waiting tobe released, what's the actual
potential of Joe Citizen andJosephine Citizen, and they were
giving potential.
That sitting there waiting tobe released, and the size of it
I found was massive.
And then the second section isthe 12 steps necessary.
(21:45):
I'm sorry to use 12 steps, butyou know 12 steps to release
that marvellous generosity, 12steps to release that marvelous
generosity.
And to your question.
The audience might not becomfortable with what they read,
(22:06):
because my first observation atstep two is know your enemy
right and knowing your enemy.
There are five big enemies ofgenerosity in the world and it's
not the individual person, theyare not the enemy.
The individual giver is not theenemy.
The enemy number one arenon-profit boards.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well now, who's the feather ruffler?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I get you.
Yeah, that's going to go downreal well, that's going to make
me real popular.
That is Nonprofit boards.
Not because they arefundamentally flawed, it's just
that culture that we talkedabout at the beginning is
missing inside the boards andwe've got a vast array of people
coming onto boards andnonprofits globally whose
(22:58):
background does not include aphilanthropic history and they
come from commercial backgrounds.
They've been invited on theboard because somebody has said
you know how to make money goodon you, come and join us and
help us do that.
And that person they've invitedwas a very successful business
person who made profit byselling widgets right and coffee
(23:21):
and stuff.
And they come in going well, Iknow how to make profit by
selling stuff to people, and nowyou're asking me to be on a
board to advise on how to makeprofit.
And so what they do is theyinvent another opportunity shop,
they invent another sportsevent, they invent another grand
gala event, but they don'tinvent philanthropy because they
(23:44):
don't understand it and theydon't support it and they don't
cherish, nurture, preserve andprotect those people in their
fundraising departments who dounderstand it.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Oh, that's such a good point.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And so that dynamic pulls them down and, honestly,
it's not because they are nastyhuman beings who are on these
boards.
These people do it.
They put up their hand for goodpurpose, right, and say I'll be
on the board Okay, good on you,but they don't know what they
don't know, and so what we'vegot to do, the book is designed
(24:17):
for one of them.
You know, god bless one of themwho comes on board and reads
that book, and I actually hadone of those experiences.
I had a guy read it in Spain,would you believe?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
He was on holiday for a month and he got the digital
version of it off Amazon, readit and he came back to New
Zealand.
He had been in charge of acharity for 10 years that had
started with one donation fromone couple of $100 million, oh,
okay.
These people had parted with $10million a year, each year for
(24:48):
10 years, and they'd asked thisguy to organise this
organisation so that thecharities they would support
with this money would beindependent at the end of it and
not reliant on them anymore forthat money.
So build other philanthropicstuff into the system.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
And when he came to the end of the 10 years and he's
reading my book he says this iswhat we failed to do.
The reason we failed to do itwas because people who were
leading those non-profits didnot understand the philanthropic
stuff that that book describes.
And so he read the book inSpain, came back and arranged a
meeting with me, and I'm nowconsulting with them to try and
help their charities to buildthe infrastructure, starting
(25:32):
with the board members andhaving conversations with them.
That's a vital ingredient thatthe culture of philanthropy and
a donor-centric culture isintegral to the entire
infrastructure of everythingthat's done and all of the
thinking from the board down.
So the answer to your questionreally is that it's definitely
(25:55):
for board members, it's foranybody who's an enthusiastic
supporter of an organisation andit's certainly for fundraisers
and people who want to build arobust, sustainable fundraising
entity within their ownorganisation that will last
decades into the future.
That's the goal.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Okay, no small goal.
Okay, just a tiny bit, no smallgoal, no small goal.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I'm going to take over the world a couple of weeks
from now, but other than that,you know that's the yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Other than that, nothing major.
I love that and I love the ideaof that kind of starting from
the top down right, of that kindof starting from the top down
right.
Far too often I feel like youknow somebody who's maybe in
fundraising or in nonprofitmarketing gets ahold of a book
like this.
They read it, they get veryexcited about it but they don't
(26:50):
really have the power to impactchange within the organization.
They can only impact their work.
But I love the idea of theapproach of starting with the
board and having that kind oftrickle-down impact into culture
to actually change the way anorganization functions 100%.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
It's absolutely paramount that that is done,
because one of the parts of thebook even though I've just told
you that the section onedescribes something and then
section two is 12 steps.
At the end of it I sneak instep 13, right?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Let me show you what step 13 is.
Are you ready for this?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Ready.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I'm going to see if I can find it.
There we go, step 13.
Ah, plan for sabotage, it says.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Step 13.
Ah, plan for sabotage, it says.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Plan for sabotage, because all of those marvelous
stuff we've just been talkingabout, best laid plans, trying
to do everything under the sun,you need to be thinking that
something's going to sabotagethis and, as you go, plan for
sabotage.
The foundational data for thebook comes out of 10 charities
(28:05):
that I've lived and worked inand studied from the inside and,
as I say, over a 20-year period, and three of them apply more
or less these principles tofunction and to build
philanthropic relationships andphilanthropic income.
Seven did not, and of thoseseven that did not, two don't
(28:26):
exist anymore and the other fiveare struggling to keep their
head above water because theyhaven't embraced philanthropy
and its profitability.
You know, the massivegenerosity of philanthropic
people is also highly profitableand the best way for any
charity to really fund itsmission, in my humble opinion.
(28:49):
And so the measure of theabsence of that culture is
reported in the book and theimpact of that culture is
reported in the book and theimpact of it is measured and
illustrated in seven of those 10charities that failed to put
that in there, and a good chunkof the reason for that does, I'm
sorry to say, hark back to astart with the leadership and
(29:14):
the failure for that culture totriple down when that culture
has been nurtured and cherished,preserved and protected right.
The end result has been thethree charities where they're
thriving.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, that's great man, malcolm.
I feel like I could keep thisconversation going all day
because it's been so interesting, but if somebody wanted to find
the book, I presume it's stillavailable on amazon or how would
they connect with?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
you.
If you go to my website, it'sit's in, uh, cracking
generositycom.
Um, there's a link straightthere to the amazon site or
amazon spot where you can buy it.
It's available as a hard copy,also as a a digital version, an
e-book.
So you've got an e-book version.
The one that the guy read inSpain was an e-book.
And then I have a localdistributor for the Southern
(30:11):
Hemisphere.
I've divided the globe into twothe Northern Hemisphere, that's
you guys, and the SouthernHemisphere, that's us, and it's
available there.
And then, as time goes and myenergies are applied, the aim is
to build a podcast that'sdedicated to the detail of it
(30:31):
and also answering the questionsof people who read the book.
I should say, too, that there'sa parallel book, a companion
book, that's coming outassociated with it, the
companion book.
So this book is very muchwritten for people in the
fundraising sector and in thenon-profit sector globally,
that's people who are doing whatyou and I do, right.
(30:54):
But the other book is directedat the citizens who are generous
and it's based on 100individuals born in all the same
year, in 1919.
And it tracks the impact oftheir giving over 100 years to
the year just before COVID andtells their story of how much
(31:16):
influence they had from theirgenerosity and the impact those
100 people had.
And the idea with that book isto try and enthuse more citizens
to increase their giving tocharitable causes and to look at
philanthropy as the first wayto do it, rather than buying
something from an op shop.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
That sounds fascinating and I cannot wait
for that one to come out.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
It's a work in progress.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That's great, well, excellent, malcolm.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation.
Definitely go check outCracking Generosity you can find
and order Malcolm's book.
But thank you so much forjoining us.
We really appreciate all thewisdom and insight you had to
share on this topic.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It's been an absolute privilege and a delight, and
thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
My pleasure, this has been another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
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Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andjoining me today is Malcolm
Sproul who, title-wise, I'm sointerested to dig into this as a
fundraising enterprisearchitect.
This is not a title I've everheard of before, so I'm very
excited to dig into that andalso to have a chance to talk
about his new book, crackingGenerosity.
(00:56):
So we are very excited to haveyou join us all the way from New
Zealand.
I think you are actually myfirst international guest on the
podcast, at least this year.
Malcolm, welcome in.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Thank you so much.
It's a very big privilege to bepart of this.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, my pleasure.
So tell us a little bit aboutyour journey in the nonprofit
world and what led you toauthoring this book.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Well, if I work backwards from the job title,
fundraising, enterpriseArchitect is a rather grand
title, I think you'll agree.
But it's the end result of mespending 20 plus years in the
non-profit sector here in NewZealand after having come out of
the commercial sector in salesand marketing, and my background
is business and revenuegeneration, profit making that
(01:42):
sort of thing, and so when I gotinto the non-profit sector, I
found that there was an absenceof the infrastructure needed to
manage cash flow and enthusepeople to give money to your
good cause, and there was amarvellous supply of
extraordinarily passionatepeople, but there was a real
(02:03):
weakness in the systems andprocesses the boring stuff
actually, that keeps the wheelturning, and I don't want to say
that I'm boring, but somepeople do.
My children do sometimes,that's universal, regardless of
what country.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
It's a fair and child's play.
Yeah, that's the universalstandard.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Oh yeah, man, you're boring Dad.
But anyway, my interest is inthe detail of the mechanisms
that actually keep the cash flowgoing, and that's everything
inside a non-profit fundraisingside of the equation.
It's not just the specificmethod by which you pull the
(02:43):
money out maybe a gala or amajor donor program, it's all of
those.
So I jumped into the non-profitsector, straight out of the
commercial sector, into my firstnon-profit in 2002.
And quite honestly, it was acombination of shocking new and
wonderful, because I fell inlove with philanthropic people.
(03:07):
You know it was so different todealing with folk in the
commercial sector who were sortof just, you know, consumer,
profit-oriented, let's make moremoney kind of people you know.
And then I found these humanbeings in the country who would
be intentionally setting asidemoney in their lifestyle to give
(03:27):
it away to good causes.
I mean, they were setting uptheir finances to intentionally
give money away.
And that aligned beautifullywith my grandmother's teachings
when I was 15.
She had a finger like that infront of my face at 15 saying
Malcolm, there's only one goodreason to make more money than
you need and that's so you'vegot more to give away.
And that was her principle.
(03:50):
So I blame my grandmother forbeing in this interview today,
so it's her fault.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
It's a good call out to be, though, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Because she ultimately sewed that into us
that making money is one thing,but when you're making money,
put some aside.
To be given away was anintegrated part of our culture,
and so this is my expression ofa career shift and a job that I
hope honors my grandmother.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, I love that so much.
What a great philosophy.
And everyone wants to talkabout the legacy that they leave
behind.
But here you are.
I'm assuming a lot older, not alot older, but definitely above
15.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
Have a look at this.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, it's been there that you're still impacted by
that, so much so that you'veturned around and made a career
out of it.
So I'm sure that she would bevery proud to know that legacy
is living on.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I hope so, and she meant a lot to me.
I mean she was a very big partof my youth.
But there was a cultural thingthat was Scottish Irish in its
origins you know we were acolony of the British Empire
here.
You know we were a colony ofthe British Empire here and they
brought with them from Irelandand Scotland the idea that you
know, we are on a bound andthere's a duty of care for your
(05:17):
neighbour, and so everybody cameover with a culture of looking
after one another and a littlebit of setting aside money to
help one another out when timeswere down.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You know was part of that culture and it's part of
that that I'm trying to, I guess, continue.
Yeah, that's great.
So, before we dig too far intothe book itself, I'm curious to
hear from your perspective,perspective when we talk about
generosity, yeah, that being avalue, I think it's interesting
that you point back to thescotch, irish roots and that's
something that that honor andthat duty was very much a part
(05:54):
of that culture and then itinfiltrated through, you know,
down the generations across theworld, down to new zealand.
I'm curious to hear yourthoughts on, as you have studied
, the cracking of generosity,which I'm going to assume you've
cracked the code.
I don't want to pat myself onthe back but I think I have yes.
(06:16):
Yeah, is that something that yousee applicable, like would it
be as applicable to cracking thecode here in the us, or is it
culturally to europe, to newzealand?
Is generosity culture based oris it something that where the
formula is going to work becausegenerosity at its core is such
(06:37):
a human value?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Really good question.
Love that, Thank you.
What I've found is so.
My research here in New Zealandis based on 10 charities that I
worked in and observed from theinside over a 20-year period.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
But during that time I also researched the global
nature of philanthropy andgenerosity and there's an awful
lot of common denominators.
So you know, let's have a lookat America, for example USA,
canada both essentially coloniesthat had people migrate from
(07:11):
Europe to fill them up right,and those people came to those
colonies with the culture fromthat European foundation, and
that European foundation,depending on your roots, had a
lot of philanthropy, was anintegrated part, or sort of
generosity was an integratedpart of how society functioned
once upon a time.
(07:31):
So they brought that with themand what I found when I've been
talking with folk from theStates, from Canada and from
Australia and from the UK, southAfrica, all over the place,
there's a real commonality aboutwhat I call citizen generosity.
The biggest barrier isn't theabsence of that culture.
The biggest barrier is thatconstant issue of trust.
(07:53):
I'm keen to support financiallya thing that really matters in
my heart, but can I trust thatorganization to apply that money
the way I would like it to beapplied?
And you know that kind of issueis the battle, but in a country
like New Zealand.
The other thing about NewZealand as a society from which
(08:13):
the lessons can be appliedglobally is that we are a guinea
pig society.
It's a bit of a strange thing.
I mean, while we've also madeLord of the Rings and Peter
Jackson's world famous out ofNew Zealand and movies, I hate
to tell you this, but Yogi Bearwas filmed down here, you know.
Just so you know.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Really.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
I didn't know that.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
And the last Yogi Bear movie.
You know so, the all timeAmerican Yogi Bear here in New
Zealand.
So a heap of movies shot herethat are made to look like
they're in the States becausewe've got landscape that's
really quite beautiful.
But apart from that, we've gotcitizens in New Zealand who are
very much globetrotters.
We're 5 million people in NewZealand and 1 million of us live
(08:56):
overseas, and pretty much 3million of the 5 million who
live here have done what theycall an OE overseas experience.
They travel the globe.
We travel quite a lot so we'rewell-versed with the nature of
other countries and othercultures.
But we're also a replica.
We're also a nice little modelof consumer minds that are not
(09:19):
too different from anybody else.
In Pittsburgh we buy the samestuff, we eat the same food, we
consume in a similar fashion,and so there's real parallels
and so it's kind of, you know,white, anglo-saxon, protestant
worldview Plonked, plonked hereand replicated there.
You know so the data I've foundand accumulated for the book.
(09:41):
When I've presented it topeople in Oxford, in the UK, or
people in Canada or in Australia, they go oh yeah, that's us,
because we've got some realcommonality, and a lot of that
commonality does come from thecolonial nature of those places.
The roots are all quite similar, are all quite similar, and so
(10:06):
I've found that when I've testedthese 12 steps of my book with
people across the globe, itresonates in pretty much every
country.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
So when we talk about this concept of generosity,
then, especially around I needto trust that organization to be
a good steward of the moneythat I am being generous with.
Are there common traits thatyou have as you've studied these
organizations over the courseof the last 20 years?
(10:33):
Are there common traits thatyou have found to be successful
in building trust?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yes, there is.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
What does that look like?
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Well, I hate to make it as simple as this.
I mean, hopefully people aretaking note or listening.
I think it's oversimplistic,but it was a conversation with
an old man in that first year inmy nonprofit experience.
I was on the phone doingtelemarketing, which you do.
You're ringing up potential.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, you're right.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, no.
And so I'm ringing this old guyup and I'm doing my sales pitch
(11:08):
as if I was in the commercialworld and he interrupts me.
He says, malcolm, look, I'm 84years old, I could die tomorrow.
In other words, can you get tothe point Spit up?
So I spit up and he says, look,all we old philanthropic people
need to know is the answer totwo questions Will my money do
what you say it will do, and canyou prove it?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And I said, okay, yes , you know I can answer those
two questions.
And so I did.
And he said can you answer themquickly too, by the way?
And so I did.
And he said, okay, how much doyou need and when do you need it
?
And through that conversation,my eyes opened.
At the end of the day, allwe've got to be is an
(11:53):
infrastructure and enterpriseand organisation which answers
those two questions.
And you've got yourself.
You're connecting with peoplewho are predisposed to want
generosity to happen in theworld.
I think there's a genetic kindof predisposition, there's a
behavioural predisposition.
I think we rank a lot of peopleas not being generous.
(12:14):
But when you give people achance and they connect with
something in their life that has, in their life journey, already
predisposed them to want to seea thing go in a good way, then
you trigger and match that andbingo, this person who looked
like a bit of a hard-nosedcharacter turns into a generous
(12:34):
human being.
And it's about finding thatmatch for a start.
And when you've got that match,you've got two questions to
answer and it's the as those twoquestions will my money do what
you say it will do, and can youprove it?
And if your organization isstructured to to answer those
two questions, then trust builds.
The only other factor that'sneeded in there is the time
factor, because you know my84-year-old friend who's long
(13:00):
past his history of giving wentback 50-odd years in his life.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
When I got to know him a bit more and his way of
testing the waters was testingthe waters, he would go okay,
you look like you're doingsomething in the world that I
like to see get done, I'll throwyou some money to test the
waters.
And sometimes he was a classicin that sometimes he'd be giving
(13:25):
50 bucks here and 100 bucksthere and test the waters and
he'd wait a year or two to seewhat came back and then suddenly
he wrote a $50,000 check.
Wow, you know, because you hadanswered his two questions Is my
money doing what you said itwould do and are you proving it?
The end here's more money.
(13:51):
And that generosity is thenature of, I think, the nature
of generosity that I've seen andheard of and had reported from
all parts of the world, reallyFolk who live everywhere you
know.
So, yeah, that's that simple.
I think, and I hate to say it,it's that simple.
And I would say that 90% of thework I undertake in building
infrastructures, in fundraisingenterprises, is to address those
(14:13):
two questions.
Almost 90% of it it's gettingfolk inside the organisations to
think in terms of the worldviewof the donor and constantly
that donor's questions are ontheir mind, you know, and not
look every day through your eyesat the world, but through the
eyes of that donor looking atyou.
Yeah, and then what is youraccounting practice doing to
(14:36):
support those two questions?
What is your marketing doing tosupport those two questions?
What is your staffcommunication and culture doing
to support those two questions?
Speaker 2 (14:47):
I think my I would say experientially or
anecdotally what I have seen tobe true is that we are all
pretty good at answering thefirst one Is it going to do what
you say it's going to do, yes?
We're not as good at the secondone, which is those ways to
(15:08):
prove it and showcase data thatsays yep, this is the thing we
set out to do and here's how itwent.
I think the gap is in closingthe loop around that proof of
concept.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Absolutely 100% on, monique, you're 100% right.
One of the biggest weaknessesthat causes that fragility in
that side of the equation is alack of discipline in the
methods by which you get backand report.
One of the barriers is theturnover of staff in the
nonprofit fundraising arena.
(15:41):
You know, in the States I thinkyou're looking at, you know 18
months to 24 months is theaverage survival rate of a
person in the fundraising sideof the equation.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
That's just so sad.
It's really hard to build thatmomentum if you're constantly
having staff turnover that way.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
A huge problem, huge problem.
But then again, you know,you've got to look at why that
turnover is, and I've found someexamples again when that
infrastructure of you know theenterprise is designed with that
as a concern and something toaddress.
You know, we've gotorganisations here where you've
got people who have been infundraising for 14 years in one
(16:19):
organisation and they've stayedstable.
And the reason they've stayedstable is because, more to do
with infrastructure design thanyou know, that's enabled their
passion to be nourished.
I mean, there's these humanbeings who come in and work in a
non-profit to raise funds for acharitable cause.
You know, first of all I justwant to hug every one of them,
(16:42):
you know.
So one big global hug toeverybody who's doing that right
at this moment.
You are a precious human beingand that's all I can say.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
And your work matters .
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And your work Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
In magic ways.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yes, yeah, yeah yeah, and your work matters, and your
work absolutely matters.
And there's four words.
Four words I want to pour ontop of you, and that's to
cherish, nurture, preserve andprotect you.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And if you have an infrastructure that cherishes,
nurtures, preserves and protectsyour fundraising people, that's
a key part of the design workI'm looking at is, you know, and
trying to bring in is howcherish, nurture, preserve,
protect right, so that oh mygosh, can you just I can just
(17:29):
try to envision what it wouldlook like if all of our
non-profits had a culture builtaround that for their
fundraisers and the input thatchange that that would make
their ability to raise funds ohmy gosh.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Well, because ultimately, what folk are trying
to do, I've seen so many peoplestep in and give it a go and
then get burned out.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
The sadness.
I'm actually 21.
This is the result of me goinginto the non-profit sector.
But the delightful nature ofthese human beings going in
there has just thrilled me on somany occasions.
(18:10):
When I meet them and what I seeis that they encounter an
infrastructure and an enterprisewhich does not welcome them, it
does not cherish them, it doesnot nurture them, it does not
preserve them, it does notprotect them.
And that absence is correctablebecause what you've got there in
(18:32):
that beautiful human beingwho's walked in the door to say
can I help, how can I help you?
And I want to work infundraising and all of that sort
of stuff Is failing to seeinside that person a unique
giftedness that they walked inthe door with.
And we're all going to havesome degree of naivety about how
(18:52):
we enter into these places.
I have to say that that was mecertainly in the first year, but
I was fortunate.
I was really fortunate and thefirst nonprofit I worked in.
I was there for five years andI was wait for it cherished,
nurtured, preserved andprotected.
The difference that made to thefoundational desire for me to
(19:14):
continue in this work wasphenomenal.
Now I went into other charitieswhere that was not the case and
the organization spat me out ina certain period of time, but I
was able to measure.
Well, I was able to learn fromthose experiences and that's the
learning that's inside the book.
So what we are losing is anawful lot of marvelous talent,
(19:41):
the hearts of these people, man,I go back to my big global hug.
I just love them to bits.
I'm telling you right now, andwhat's failing them has really
kind of annoyed me and driven meto the writing of this book, to
the writing of this book.
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Speaker 2 (20:44):
So talk to me a little bit about the book itself
, then.
So is the audience, those folkswho are on the front lines and
deserve that giant hug, or is itmaybe the bosses above them who
are creating the culture thatis causing them to need these
giant hugs?
Speaker 3 (21:00):
and okay, you're gonna.
You're gonna touch some nerves,megan, this is gonna go okay I
like to stir the pot where I cangood on you, good on you, good
on you who's the key audience?
Okay, Well, they're all of thosepeople you just mentioned.
Thanks, inside, there I have.
(21:21):
The book is divided into twosections.
The first section is my kind oflearning curve and discovering
of citizen generosity and whatit looked like and what's the
actual potential of Joe Citizenand Josephine Citizen, and they
were giving potential.
That's sitting there waiting tobe released, what's the actual
potential of Joe Citizen andJosephine Citizen, and they were
giving potential.
That sitting there waiting tobe released, and the size of it
I found was massive.
And then the second section isthe 12 steps necessary.
(21:45):
I'm sorry to use 12 steps, butyou know 12 steps to release
that marvellous generosity, 12steps to release that marvelous
generosity.
And to your question.
The audience might not becomfortable with what they read,
(22:06):
because my first observation atstep two is know your enemy
right and knowing your enemy.
There are five big enemies ofgenerosity in the world and it's
not the individual person, theyare not the enemy.
The individual giver is not theenemy.
The enemy number one arenon-profit boards.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well now, who's the feather ruffler?
Speaker 3 (22:35):
I get you.
Yeah, that's going to go downreal well, that's going to make
me real popular.
That is Nonprofit boards.
Not because they arefundamentally flawed, it's just
that culture that we talkedabout at the beginning is
missing inside the boards andwe've got a vast array of people
coming onto boards andnonprofits globally whose
(22:58):
background does not include aphilanthropic history and they
come from commercial backgrounds.
They've been invited on theboard because somebody has said
you know how to make money goodon you, come and join us and
help us do that.
And that person they've invitedwas a very successful business
person who made profit byselling widgets right and coffee
(23:21):
and stuff.
And they come in going well, Iknow how to make profit by
selling stuff to people, and nowyou're asking me to be on a
board to advise on how to makeprofit.
And so what they do is theyinvent another opportunity shop,
they invent another sportsevent, they invent another grand
gala event, but they don'tinvent philanthropy because they
(23:44):
don't understand it and theydon't support it and they don't
cherish, nurture, preserve andprotect those people in their
fundraising departments who dounderstand it.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Oh, that's such a good point.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And so that dynamic pulls them down and, honestly,
it's not because they are nastyhuman beings who are on these
boards.
These people do it.
They put up their hand for goodpurpose, right, and say I'll be
on the board Okay, good on you,but they don't know what they
don't know, and so what we'vegot to do, the book is designed
(24:17):
for one of them.
You know, god bless one of themwho comes on board and reads
that book, and I actually hadone of those experiences.
I had a guy read it in Spain,would you believe?
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
He was on holiday for a month and he got the digital
version of it off Amazon, readit and he came back to New
Zealand.
He had been in charge of acharity for 10 years that had
started with one donation fromone couple of $100 million, oh,
okay.
These people had parted with $10million a year, each year for
(24:48):
10 years, and they'd asked thisguy to organise this
organisation so that thecharities they would support
with this money would beindependent at the end of it and
not reliant on them anymore forthat money.
So build other philanthropicstuff into the system.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
And when he came to the end of the 10 years and he's
reading my book he says this iswhat we failed to do.
The reason we failed to do itwas because people who were
leading those non-profits didnot understand the philanthropic
stuff that that book describes.
And so he read the book inSpain, came back and arranged a
meeting with me, and I'm nowconsulting with them to try and
help their charities to buildthe infrastructure, starting
(25:32):
with the board members andhaving conversations with them.
That's a vital ingredient thatthe culture of philanthropy and
a donor-centric culture isintegral to the entire
infrastructure of everythingthat's done and all of the
thinking from the board down.
So the answer to your questionreally is that it's definitely
(25:55):
for board members, it's foranybody who's an enthusiastic
supporter of an organisation andit's certainly for fundraisers
and people who want to build arobust, sustainable fundraising
entity within their ownorganisation that will last
decades into the future.
That's the goal.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Okay, no small goal.
Okay, just a tiny bit, no smallgoal, no small goal.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
I'm going to take over the world a couple of weeks
from now, but other than that,you know that's the yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Other than that, nothing major.
I love that and I love the ideaof that kind of starting from
the top down right, of that kindof starting from the top down
right.
Far too often I feel like youknow somebody who's maybe in
fundraising or in nonprofitmarketing gets ahold of a book
like this.
They read it, they get veryexcited about it but they don't
(26:50):
really have the power to impactchange within the organization.
They can only impact their work.
But I love the idea of theapproach of starting with the
board and having that kind oftrickle-down impact into culture
to actually change the way anorganization functions 100%.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
It's absolutely paramount that that is done,
because one of the parts of thebook even though I've just told
you that the section onedescribes something and then
section two is 12 steps.
At the end of it I sneak instep 13, right?
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
Let me show you what step 13 is.
Are you ready for this?
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Ready.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I'm going to see if I can find it.
There we go, step 13.
Ah, plan for sabotage, it says.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Step 13.
Ah, plan for sabotage, it says.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Plan for sabotage, because all of those marvelous
stuff we've just been talkingabout, best laid plans, trying
to do everything under the sun,you need to be thinking that
something's going to sabotagethis and, as you go, plan for
sabotage.
The foundational data for thebook comes out of 10 charities
(28:05):
that I've lived and worked inand studied from the inside and,
as I say, over a 20-year period, and three of them apply more
or less these principles tofunction and to build
philanthropic relationships andphilanthropic income.
Seven did not, and of thoseseven that did not, two don't
(28:26):
exist anymore and the other fiveare struggling to keep their
head above water because theyhaven't embraced philanthropy
and its profitability.
You know, the massivegenerosity of philanthropic
people is also highly profitableand the best way for any
charity to really fund itsmission, in my humble opinion.
(28:49):
And so the measure of theabsence of that culture is
reported in the book and theimpact of that culture is
reported in the book and theimpact of it is measured and
illustrated in seven of those 10charities that failed to put
that in there, and a good chunkof the reason for that does, I'm
sorry to say, hark back to astart with the leadership and
(29:14):
the failure for that culture totriple down when that culture
has been nurtured and cherished,preserved and protected right.
The end result has been thethree charities where they're
thriving.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Yeah, that's great man, malcolm.
I feel like I could keep thisconversation going all day
because it's been so interesting, but if somebody wanted to find
the book, I presume it's stillavailable on amazon or how would
they connect with?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
you.
If you go to my website, it'sit's in, uh, cracking
generositycom.
Um, there's a link straightthere to the amazon site or
amazon spot where you can buy it.
It's available as a hard copy,also as a a digital version, an
e-book.
So you've got an e-book version.
The one that the guy read inSpain was an e-book.
And then I have a localdistributor for the Southern
(30:11):
Hemisphere.
I've divided the globe into twothe Northern Hemisphere, that's
you guys, and the SouthernHemisphere, that's us, and it's
available there.
And then, as time goes and myenergies are applied, the aim is
to build a podcast that'sdedicated to the detail of it
(30:31):
and also answering the questionsof people who read the book.
I should say, too, that there'sa parallel book, a companion
book, that's coming outassociated with it, the
companion book.
So this book is very muchwritten for people in the
fundraising sector and in thenon-profit sector globally,
that's people who are doing whatyou and I do, right.
(30:54):
But the other book is directedat the citizens who are generous
and it's based on 100individuals born in all the same
year, in 1919.
And it tracks the impact oftheir giving over 100 years to
the year just before COVID andtells their story of how much
(31:16):
influence they had from theirgenerosity and the impact those
100 people had.
And the idea with that book isto try and enthuse more citizens
to increase their giving tocharitable causes and to look at
philanthropy as the first wayto do it, rather than buying
something from an op shop.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
That sounds fascinating and I cannot wait
for that one to come out.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
It's a work in progress.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That's great, well, excellent, malcolm.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation.
Definitely go check outCracking Generosity you can find
and order Malcolm's book.
But thank you so much forjoining us.
We really appreciate all thewisdom and insight you had to
share on this topic.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
It's been an absolute privilege and a delight, and
thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
My pleasure, this has been another episode of the
Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time.
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