October 10, 2025 • 32 mins
Burnout doesn’t always look like flames; sometimes it looks like “fine.” We dig into the hidden gap between employee satisfaction and true engagement—and why that gap quietly drains nonprofit performance even when everyone says they love the mission. With guest Kathryn Cronin Miller, founder of A Better Place to Work, we break down a practical framework leaders can use to move teams from compliant to committed.
If you lead, manage, or care about nonprofit impact, this conversation gives you tools to rebuild trust, raise energy, and turn mission passion into measurable results. Subscribe, share this with a colleague who’s ready to move beyond “fine,” and leave a quick review to help more nonprofit leaders find the show.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
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SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Speer.
Joined today by Katherine CroninMiller, who's the founder of A
Better Place to Work and who isalso going to be on stage with
us at Coscamp this year.
Very excited to have her comeinto Pittsburgh in November to
be part of the CauseCampWorkshop Slate.
Really excited for what she'sbringing to the table there.
(00:39):
Can't wait for you all to hearher.
But you do get a little taste ofit today, which is great.
Catherine, welcome in.
Thanks for having me, Megan.
I'm happy to be here.
Yeah.
So tell the audience a littlebit about yourself and your
journey and a better place towork.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Yeah.
Well, um, so I'm a licensedclinical social worker by
training.
Uh, I've been in the nonprofitsector for about 20 years.
And over the years, I reallycame into nonprofit leadership
and became more interested inthe human resources side of
things.
I think throughout my career, Iwas really good at putting out
(01:15):
fires.
I mean, like people and culturefires, right?
And I became well known assomeone who could put out these
fires.
But I really started to realizethat in every organization I
worked in, the fires were kindof the same and oftentimes they
were preventable.
So rather than somewhere where Iwas putting out the fires,
right?
I wanted to do some good in thesector by teaching social sector
(01:40):
leaders how to prevent thosechallenges and create really
engaged, inclusive,high-performing workplaces from
the ground up.
And the thing that I love aboutthis work is I always say like
it's win-win-win, right?
Like when we do this work reallywell, first of all, our clients
and community members winbecause they're receiving better
(02:02):
services, right?
Our staff members win becausewhen they're actively engaged,
they generally feel better atwork.
And our organization winsbecause our budget's protected,
our outcomes soar, right?
All of that.
So I love the work that I'mdoing.
I founded the company in 2021.
And yeah, I work with socialsector organizations around the
(02:24):
country.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
That's awesome.
I love it.
So I want to dig in.
There's so much that we couldtalk about around this.
But I think there's a reallyinteresting discussion to have
around the idea of employeeengagement because I think a lot
of I think a lot of times in alot of organizations it gets
miscontrude, misconstrued withsatisfaction.
SPEAKER_02 (02:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
Right.
And we'll do it, we'll do anemployee satisfaction survey and
everybody says they love ithere, so we must be fine.
Yes.
Right.
But realistically, especially inthe nonprofit sector, we might
be satisfied because we like thework that we're doing, but we're
teetering on the edge ofburnout, right?
Because there's so much demandand so much expectation.
So talk to me a little bit aboutthe difference between
(03:11):
engagement and satisfaction andwhat those indicators are.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
I'm so glad that you're naming this.
I would say this is probably oneof the number one misconceptions
that I see as a consultant inthis space, right?
So when we're talking aboutemployee engagement, we're
really talking about theemployees' investment into their
work, right?
They're investing their personalenergy.
So I like to explain to leadersthink of this as like when
(03:38):
someone puts their whole head,hands, and heart into the work,
like they're really in it,right?
So this is an investment oftheir personal energy.
And satisfaction is somethingpretty different.
Satisfaction is my attitude ormy like happiness level about
the work.
They're related, but they aredistinct, right?
(03:59):
So engagement, it's the numberone driver of performance.
If you want to increase yourcommunity impact, if you want to
serve more clients, serve thoseclients better, right?
Have better outcomes, you needto worry about engagement
because engagement is the singlelargest driver of performance.
(04:20):
I could say this till my faceturns blue.
So if you really think aboutthat for a second, what I'm
saying is it's not how much youpay them.
It's not whether or not you arethree days in the office or two.
It's not when they last got araise.
It's not if you have the PPO orthe HMO offering, despite all
the hullabaloo that can occurwith that.
Yeah.
(04:40):
Those are all indicators ofsatisfaction.
And so I want you to imagine inyour brain, let's say you have
an employee who is kind of justgoing through the motions,
right?
As you said, teetering towardsburnout, maybe.
What is going on for thatperson?
That is a person who is probablysatisfied, meaning they're
(05:02):
getting a paycheck, they feelpretty comfortable.
There's nothing at work that'slike really pushing them out.
Like generally speaking, they'rehappy, they're content, but
they're not engaged.
They're not investing ofthemselves in the work, which
means performance is suffering,right?
So I will say, like right now,this is just a very timely topic
(05:25):
in 2025, because we're in adifferent financial moment as a
country.
So if you remember theconversations a few years ago
during the COVID-19 pandemic, wewere talking about the great
resignation, right?
All these folks that wereresigning.
Well, we had really low rates ofengagement in the United States
at that time, but we also feltpretty secure with the economy.
(05:49):
We felt that if we resign fromour jobs, the grass will be
greener somewhere else, or atleast just as green, and we'll
be able to, right, like getanother job.
What's happening now?
And Gallup just put out earlierthis year their most recent
data, we're at kind of a 10-yearlow for engagement in this
country across sectors.
(06:09):
But the difference is employeesaren't leaving because they're
not confident that they're goingto be able to get another job.
So if they're satisfied withtheir paycheck and they're
generally content with theirrelationships with colleagues
and they feel okay, even ifthey're not engaged, they're
sticking around.
And that means that as leaders,we need to be much more aware of
(06:31):
this difference betweenengagement and satisfaction
because our outcomes are goingto suffer.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Is this because I feel like for a while in the
headlines, we had this everyonewas all of a sudden terrified of
the quiet quitting.
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Is that a lack of engagement or is that a separate
thing altogether?
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Yeah, I mean, it depends.
Well, I will say, generallyspeaking, I think yes, it's a
lack of engagement.
Like they're disinvesting ordeinvesting their personal
energy from the work, but theyare not leaving.
So that is exactly the situationI just described.
They are satisfied with theirpaycheck, they are generally
satisfied with, you know, theirrelationships at work or their
(07:10):
benefits or whatever thesituation is, but they're not
putting their whole head, hands,and heart.
They're not engaging in what wecall citizenship behaviors.
You know, sure I'll volunteer toplan that event, sure, I'll
serve on this committee, sureI'll do that outreach work, sure
I'll write up a blurb for thefundraising team on, you know, a
recent success story.
(07:30):
Those are the things they're notdoing.
They're doing the bare minimum.
That is exactly right when wehave low engagement but decent
satisfaction.
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SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
Oh, yeah, there's probably a lot more of that in
my department than I was waswilling to admit because I
assumed the satisfaction ratewas fine.
I guess two questions.
One, are there key indicatorsthat you look for that really
like kind of measure out howunengaged someone is?
(08:57):
And at what point does thatbecome something we need to
address?
And two, once we identify thatit's a problem, then what?
Because if it's not like I can'tuh I'm putting myself into their
shoes at the moment, right?
I can if somebody's dissatisfiedwith their paycheck or with
their health benefits or theiruh amount of PTO time that they
(09:19):
are allotted every year, thoseare tangible things that I can
go to the mat for and fight for.
Right to try and make someonecare and go above and beyond, I
feel like as a leader is a wholelot harder.
So once we identify that it's aproblem, then what?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
Yeah.
Okay, so two questions there.
This is really juicy stuff.
First and foremost, you know,are there key indicators?
Absolutely, right?
And there are plenty ofcompanies out there, they'll be
happy to sell you on them.
You don't need, I mean, it'slovely to hire one of these
companies, it makes thingsreally easy.
Um, it's nice to have anindependent consultant because
(09:55):
it can make the data feel moreanonymous and safer for folks.
So it's more likely to beauthentic data, but you don't
need to spend that kind ofmoney.
And if if folks are listeningand they're in a really small
nonprofit or mid-sizednonprofit, um, they're worried
about budget right now and theydon't want to invest, you can
get free employee engagementassessments online.
(10:16):
There's actually one, I'm happyto give you this link.
There's one on my website, youcan just download it, but
there's others available online.
And really, what you're lookingat with an employee engagement
assessment, there are threedrivers of engagement.
Um, this all comes from thiswork stems from a study done by
a guy by the name of WilliamKahn in 1990.
(10:36):
So, this is all the most, youknow, last 25 years that we've
really focused on this.
I will say as an aside, thatstudy had some pretty
significant limitations.
But since then, that work hasbeen replicated across the
globe, across industries, acrosscultures.
And what we find is that theresults are pretty much the same
(10:57):
everywhere.
Meaning these are like kind ofhuman connection type, right?
This is a basic intrinsic factabout humans and who we are and
how we relate to one another.
We are inherently creatures ofconnection, right?
And we thrive in community.
And I think that like reallyjives with a lot of the
(11:18):
nonprofit mindset.
So, um, but these are the threedrivers, right?
Here you go.
It's psychological safety, whichis the freedom I have to bring
my full self into work.
We have psychologicalmeaningfulness, and I have a lot
of leaders tell me, oh,meaningfulness, right?
Well, everyone here is drawn tothe mission, so the work is
meaningful.
(11:38):
Oh, not so fast, right?
Meaningfulness is a little bitdeeper than that.
It's really about on a dailybasis.
Do I feel like I'm gettingreciprocal energy from what I
put in?
SPEAKER_01 (11:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
Okay.
This we can we can cut and teasethat out if you're curious about
that.
The third one, so we havepsychological safety,
meaningfulness.
The third one is availability.
And I often encourage people tothink about psychological
availability as listen, you onlyhave so much brain space at any
given time for everything inyour life.
And so the literature talksabout well, what takes up that
(12:15):
space?
And we use the termdistractions, which I think can
be kind of a negative term, butthey could be personal
distractions.
So let's say you're undergoingcancer treatment, right?
Or you're caring for a familymember, right?
Before you come into work thatday, there's already some space
getting taken up, right?
Your dog is sick, your kid'slate to school, you know, like
whatever.
And then for those things, a lotof our organizations, we hope
(12:38):
that we have really good HRpolicies and procedures.
We want people to take the timethey need to take care of
personal things and come back.
So, where I would encourageleaders to focus is this other
side, which I call professionaldistractions.
And that's tension on teams.
I don't feel comfortable with mysupervisor.
I think organizationalleadership is hiding something.
(12:59):
I'm worried about the potentialfor layoffs.
I don't know why no one has toldme what's happening with federal
funding.
I'm following the news, ourbudgets are getting cut.
Why hasn't anyone said anything?
Yeah.
Right.
That's the stuff that takes usaway from really engaging fully
in the work and getting creativewith the work, right?
(13:20):
And investing our whole selvesin the work.
So psychological safety,meaningfulness, and
availability.
So when you're looking atemployee engagement assessments,
when you find them online, whatyou'll see is most of them are
looking at indicators for eachof these things.
Like psychological safety is itdoes include some equity and
(13:42):
inclusion measures, right?
Yeah.
I be who I am at work withoutcode switching constantly or
masking all day, right?
That mental energy, that mentalgymnastics, it's gonna take away
space that I have to engage.
But it's also, can I disagreewith a colleague as long as I'm
respectful or do I feel like I'mgetting my head bit off, right?
Yeah, it's okay to providefeedback to leadership.
(14:04):
Again, as long as I'mrespectful.
This is psychological safety.
So the indicators for that aregonna include things like, you
know, I trust leadership or Itrust my direct supervisor, I
believe that our team is strong,things like that.
For meaningfulness, you're gonnasee things that have to do with
creativity and autonomy in thework.
This is like I have my uniqueskills.
(14:25):
I'm not just a number, I'm ahuman.
I have big goals at work, andthen I have the creativity and
autonomy to dig into them.
Why?
Because like it feels reallygood when we're given a problem
and we can solve it, right?
So meaningfulness indicatorslook like that.
And then availability is gonnabe everything from like imposter
syndrome, lack of confidence,lack of training to do my job,
(14:49):
right?
To also things like thedistractions we just mentioned,
right?
So it can be what's pulling myenergy away from the work at
hand.
Now, you can, I would, I wouldsay as a baseline, I always
recommend that organizations doan employee engagement survey
every six months.
It's also a recommendation fromGallup.
So I didn't just wake up thismorning and make that up.
It's a great baseline.
(15:10):
If you're an organization thatis actively struggling with
engagement, you might want to doit more frequently.
You might want to do it everyquarter.
Here's the thing with that.
I just feel like this is really,really important.
It's not enough to just do anassessment.
You have got to close the loop.
I see organizational leadersfall into this trap time and
(15:32):
time again.
Here's what happens.
If there's a problem withengagement, let's say there's a
problem with psychologicalsafety, people think they're
even like the stink eye toleadership, right?
They're like, I don't trustthem, I'm not sure what's going
on, but they're afraid to saysomething.
Well, here comes an anonymoussurvey.
Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna saysomething, I'm gonna speak up.
And it's a little scary forthem, but they go ahead and do
(15:53):
that.
And then they hear back nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
And they don't know if leaders heard them, and now
they're even more scared andmore mistrustful, right?
So we need to report back, andit could just be a couple of
quick slides.
Here's the top three themes thatI heard.
And you know, if the themesrelate to leadership and they're
critical of leadership, we can,I mean, this is a little bit
more of a 201 kind ofconversation, but how we resolve
(16:22):
these issues is by focusing onthose building blocks, often of
trust.
And so, trust, trustworthiness.
How do you get to trust?
You build your trustworthinessfirst.
It's all about transparency,vulnerability, and integrity.
I'm gonna do what I say I'mgonna do when I don't, I'm gonna
own it.
And so this is a perfectopportunity to practice that,
right?
You've got some criticalfeedback, practice appropriate
(16:45):
vulnerability, put it on theside and don't put everything,
not saying you have to bear yoursoul to staff.
Sure.
Listen, point number three, Iwant everybody to know that a
lot of the feedback we heard, itwas critical of leadership and
the way that we've beenproviding feedback or the way
we've been responding to youknow changes in our funding
sources.
And um I don't have all thedetails, or I'm not gonna share
(17:06):
all the details now, but I willtell you that the message has
been received and we are workingon a plan to be more transparent
with you moving forward.
Um, and we'll check in aboutthat next quarter, that kind of
thing, right?
Like that level ofvulnerability, I think adds that
human element and it makespeople realize, like, oh, okay,
they're not hiding something,right?
Yeah, to being honest.
(17:27):
So this is a very long-windedanswer, but I would say like
those are the indicators folksare gonna want to look for.
And if there's a problem, you'regonna, depending on where your
indicators take you, if theproblem is with meaningfulness,
we've got to find creative waysto engage people in the the
meaning of the work and helpthem understand or help them see
(17:47):
that they're getting somethingback from the energy they're
putting in.
SPEAKER_01 (17:50):
Yeah.
So that's great.
So let's, I'm gonna flip thescript for a second.
If someone is listening who ismaybe not the leader, right?
Or they are they're working fora nonprofit and they're finding
themselves in a place where theyare recognizing themselves in
what you're saying aboutemployees who are disengaged or
(18:13):
maybe not feeling safe.
How do we, if we're in thatboat, how do we go about
addressing those issues,especially if we're not working
for an organization that's doingsome of the survey work or who's
you know has a mechanism fordriving that?
Because I could see wherethere's a real like I don't want
to rock the boat, I don't wantto be the one that's
(18:33):
complaining, I don't necessarilywant to take the emotionally
vulnerable risk of bringing myconcerns to my boss, right?
Because there could be all sortsof things that go along with
that.
So if we're finding ourselves ina place where we are feeling
disconnected, feeling unengaged,just kind of eh about the whole
thing within our organization,then what what are some things
(18:56):
that we can do personally tohelp drive that from the bottom?
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
Yeah.
So I mean, I a lot of theclients that I work with are
what I would describe asmid-level managers.
So anyway, from supervisors todirectors.
Um, and then of course I do havelike some some more executive
circles, but it's a very timelyquestion, Megan, because in
2024, the largest gaps inengagement in the United States
(19:22):
were among managers.
And managers dipped, I think itwas 5%, which if you're not
checking this data, thatprobably doesn't mean much.
That's a huge drop for a oneyear year over year, 5% for
managers.
And among women managers, it was7%.
Here's the problem with that.
The number one person who hasthe power to increase someone's
(19:49):
level of engagement is theirdirect supervisor.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
So if we And if that person is unengaged and
increasingly higher rate.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
You have we have like a little bit of a crisis
going on right now where ourmanagers are feeling stretched.
And you know, this makes perfectsense to me because the job of a
mid-level manager has changeddramatically in the last couple
of decades.
Um, we're expecting managers todo not just like, let's say
they're doing human servicestype work, right?
They're not just doing casework,they still are working with
clients, they're still doingevents, they're still doing
(20:21):
whatever, but they're alsomanaging people.
And nine times out of 10,they're not getting any training
on how to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
Here's a fast, easy solution among managers who are
disengaged.
We can cut that rate ofdisengagement in half if we give
them role-specific leadershiptraining.
So that's really, and that'sdirectly related to their what
we would call psychologicalavailability, right?
(20:49):
I don't feel that I know I'mbeing asked to do these things.
These problems are insane, and Ihave no idea how to fix them.
I don't have the training, Idon't feel supported.
I'm asking for help, but myexecutive is just as stressed
out as I am, right?
Simple fix, invest.
You know, if you think about it,if the training's a couple
thousand bucks, 500 bucks, thinkabout the cost of the ROI on the
(21:14):
training rather than risking theturnover and having this
reciprocal effect on everyonethat person supervises.
I just need to see smart one.
So that's that's a fast tip.
Um, if you yourself arelistening to this and you're
like, yes, I am superdisengaged, I would encourage
folks to manage up.
And I know we use that term andpeople are like managing up,
(21:35):
like I don't even really knowwhat that means, right?
So the thing is, because so muchof this relates to leadership,
there's only so much that anindividual actor can really do,
right?
There is actually, I could givepeople some links if they're
interested.
There's a great book called Loveand Work by Marcus Buckingham.
(21:56):
He's the co-founder ofStrengthsbinder, if you know
Works Gallop.
And uh he so he put out thisbook a few years ago during the
pandemic, Love and Work, and hetalks to individual folks.
Now, one thing I'll say is I'lltell you about managing up in a
second, but one thing he says islisten, the majority of people
who are unhappy with their rolesactually say that they have the
(22:20):
power to change things forthemselves, but they don't do
it.
And this is like this weird trapwe find ourselves in, right?
We get we get downtrodden, weget complacent, and also
sometimes it's scary to ask forwhat we need.
So that leads me back tomanaging up.
I encourage people like, whatdoes managing up mean?
It's I would say it's acombination of things.
(22:41):
It's speaking up for yourself,but it's doing it in a way that
your leaders can hear whatyou're saying, right?
And our bodies, we're reallyprimed.
I'm big on trauma-informedpractices.
Our bodies are primed to sort oflook for threats.
And we have this cortisolpumping and we have this
adrenaline pumping.
How do we approach people withrequests in a way that they can
(23:04):
hear us?
Well, we're gonna do it in areally specific way to try to
make them, you know, hear whatwe're saying so it's not a
threat, right?
We're collaborating with them,we're identifying a problem and
we're presenting a solution,we're asking for their input,
right?
We're um doing that in a waythat is like pretty safe.
(23:25):
We're not coming at them withaccusatory, we're we're not
pointing fingers.
So if folks are interested inthat, you know, that's just
where I would start.
And I would say, like, if you'retrying and trying and trying and
the message is not gettingacross, then we're in a
different camp.
As a leader, this is when thedisengagement, not like this
(23:45):
middle of the road, I'm notnecessarily engaged or
disengaged, the full-on activedisengagement, which is when we
see people looking for jobs atwork, right, planning to leave,
telling all their friends what ahorrible agency this is, right?
Telling people not to come hereanymore.
When people are asking forsupport and they're doing it in
an appropriate way and theydon't feel heard, that
(24:06):
reverberates and pushes theminto that act of disengagement.
So I just encourage folks, youknow, speak up.
I cannot guarantee that even ifyou use all the tools and you're
the most appropriate, thatyou're always gonna get what you
want.
But you'll get information andresponse that will help you
determine how you move forward.
SPEAKER_01 (24:23):
That's so good.
Okay, so I wanna we're justgonna keep speaking to different
audiences with this topic.
So I'd love to talk to at thispoint, that very top leader who
maybe could feel called outright now by the lack of
(24:45):
engagement for their employees.
How did they help to change ourculture?
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
Is there is transparency the top thing they
can do, or is there anactionable, like, hey, this is a
really great place where I ampersonally committing to
changing the culture around hereand to changing how we
communicate with each other andto building that level of
communication.
What is what's the kind of thetop piece for the top leaders
right now?
(25:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
So I mean, one thing I will say, here's the preface,
right?
Which is engagement can sufferbased on any of those three
drivers.
Yeah.
If you have a big problem withmeaningfulness, your solutions
need to target meaningfulness.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
But what I see very typically, I do see a crisis of
trust in a lot of organizations,right?
And this is not necessarily likewe're not pointing fingers here,
right?
This is not in the business oflike shaming executive leaders.
In fact, most of the executivesI work with are trying so hard
(25:48):
and kind of bending overbackwards to increase their
engagement and satisfactionmetrics.
I think where we go wrong isthat not everyone on staff is
receiving the information and wedon't have that level of
transparency to give us theprecursors to trust.
(26:10):
So if you're listening to thisas an executive leader and this
is resonating, like, yeah, nomatter what I do, I'm the
narrative in our organization isstill that I'm out to get
people, or our team is out toget people, or HR is out to fire
people, or we're not beinghonest, or we don't care about
people, or we're not payingthem, whatever that narrative
(26:31):
is.
What I would say is usuallythere's this lack of trust.
And before we get to trust, wehave to build trustworthiness.
You have to be worthy of trustbefore it magically occurs,
right?
Yeah.
That is all about integrity,vulnerability, right?
So transparency.
So do what you say you're gonnado when you can't, because life
(26:53):
happens, own it and be human.
Again, like I mentioned thiscall, right?
But like that appropriatevulnerability.
So here's what that sounds like.
And Megan, I'm gonna use theexample you just started with
because that's a perfect part.
When executive leaders realizethat there's a deep-rooted
problem with this, first of all,I would say, can you make it a
we problem?
(27:13):
Right.
So this is like you're having atown hall, you're you're at
staff meeting, you're you knowgetting all stuff together in
some way, and you areappropriately vulnerable.
You say, All right, I just wanteveryone to know the number one
thing in my mind right now isour organizational culture.
Over the last 10 months, I'mtotally making this up right
now, right?
(27:33):
But like over the last year,whatever, I'm continuously
hearing this narrative or thesestories.
And I'm really curious aboutthat.
I want this to be a place wherefolks feel comfortable, folks
feel like they can be themselvesand they're here and they can do
their best work.
And I want to create thatenvironment.
(27:53):
To that end, introduce employeeengagement survey number one,
right?
And I want your feedback.
And here's the plan, but likelay it out for them, be
transparent.
Here's the plan.
You're gonna, there's a two-weekwindow, we're gonna do this
survey, and then you can expectthat results will come back in
about six weeks.
We're gonna give high-levelresults, we're gonna keep people
informed.
(28:14):
Maybe you collaborate, maybe yousay, is uh if there's any staff
that are interested in workingon a you know, a team to foster
these initiatives, we're gonnahave the openings for that,
right?
Like collaboration,transparency, all of those
things are the building blocks.
If there was a number one pieceof advice I would say to leaders
(28:37):
who are struggling with culturechallenges, just because I see
trust come up so much, I wouldsay your number one advice is
ask for feedback often inmultiple formats, right?
Over and over this if it'sanonymous or name optional.
And if it's scary for people,right?
And I get that folks canunleash, right, in an anonymous
(28:58):
format.
But here's the thing you cannotfix a problem that you don't
know about.
And if they're thinking it,they're saying it, whether
they're saying it to you orthey're saying it to someone
else.
And that's brand.
So, you know, getting that outthere, closing the loop,
reporting back the feedback, andyou're gonna continuously do
this probably every quarter ifyou're actively struggling with
(29:20):
engagement until you find you'reback on track.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
That's so good.
So typically this season on thepodcast, I've been asking
everyone as a closing questionof what would your one piece of
advice or encouragement orwisdom be?
But there it was, I love it.
Yeah, actually do the work.
Yeah.
So, but I do want to certainlygive you time to answer that
question as well.
(29:45):
So, if there was another pieceof encouragement or wisdom that
you would pass along tononprofit leaders at this point,
what would that encouragementbe?
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Yeah.
I'll say one other thing wehaven't really touched upon,
which is that a lot of timesthese issues.
Connect also to narrativesaround equity and inclusion or
the lack of organization.
Right.
And things get really sticky.
I would encourage leaders not tobe afraid.
I think sometimes we're afraidthat if we start the surveys or
(30:16):
we ask people what they think orwe invite their participation,
we're going to open up Pandora'sbox and all heck is going to
break loose, right?
Yeah.
And it might, right?
Like as a consultant, I oftentell people, listen, if we're
going to go into thisengagement, I need you to know
we have to see it throughbecause it's like when you have
a messy closet.
Sometimes you take everythingout before you can put it back
(30:36):
together nicely, right?
Yeah.
But even in the messiest ofcircumstances, do not be afraid.
People want to be heard, right?
We can go too far on that and westill need to be comfortable
setting boundaries, but there'sa way to set those boundaries in
a way that is still respectful,right?
And doesn't sacrificeengagement.
(30:57):
So don't be afraid to dig in.
You will, if you can get throughit to the other side, you will
see that there's a ton ofpossibilities waiting for you.
And you can increase performanceand increase the culture in ways
you never thought were possible.
Um, I have clients who say it'sjust so much better than I ever
imagined.
Yeah, but you've got to getstarted.
(31:19):
And I know that's the scarypart.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Be afraid to jump in.
SPEAKER_01 (31:22):
I love it.
Well, Catherine, thank you somuch.
I think this has been somereally helpful information, if
nothing else, to level seteveryone's expectations and help
really understand the differencebetween engagement and anything
else and how to maybe right theship a little bit in that
regard.
So I appreciate all that you hadto share.
That was great.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
Awesome.
Well, thanks for having me,Megan.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Absolutely.
And if you'd like to hear morefrom Catherine, we would love to
have you join us for Cause Campthis year.
It's gonna be November 4th and5th in Pittsburgh.
Uh, Catherine will be on theslate of speakers sharing about
that as well.
But we'd love to see you there.
So uh this kind of training andthis kind of insight is what
we're doing for two days.
So we'd love to see you be therea part of that.
(32:05):
Uh, this has been anotherepisode of the Nonprofit Hub
Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Speer, andwe'll see you next time.
Marketing Support Network is proud to serve the
nonprofit community by offeringfull service contact center,
fulfillment, digital marketing,and fundraising services.
Your vision is our mission, andwe can't wait to partner with
you.
Visit Marketing SupportNetwork.com for more
information.
SPEAKER_01 (00:18):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Speer.
Joined today by Katherine CroninMiller, who's the founder of A
Better Place to Work and who isalso going to be on stage with
us at Coscamp this year.
Very excited to have her comeinto Pittsburgh in November to
be part of the CauseCampWorkshop Slate.
Really excited for what she'sbringing to the table there.
(00:39):
Can't wait for you all to hearher.
But you do get a little taste ofit today, which is great.
Catherine, welcome in.
Thanks for having me, Megan.
I'm happy to be here.
Yeah.
So tell the audience a littlebit about yourself and your
journey and a better place towork.
SPEAKER_02 (00:54):
Yeah.
Well, um, so I'm a licensedclinical social worker by
training.
Uh, I've been in the nonprofitsector for about 20 years.
And over the years, I reallycame into nonprofit leadership
and became more interested inthe human resources side of
things.
I think throughout my career, Iwas really good at putting out
(01:15):
fires.
I mean, like people and culturefires, right?
And I became well known assomeone who could put out these
fires.
But I really started to realizethat in every organization I
worked in, the fires were kindof the same and oftentimes they
were preventable.
So rather than somewhere where Iwas putting out the fires,
right?
I wanted to do some good in thesector by teaching social sector
(01:40):
leaders how to prevent thosechallenges and create really
engaged, inclusive,high-performing workplaces from
the ground up.
And the thing that I love aboutthis work is I always say like
it's win-win-win, right?
Like when we do this work reallywell, first of all, our clients
and community members winbecause they're receiving better
(02:02):
services, right?
Our staff members win becausewhen they're actively engaged,
they generally feel better atwork.
And our organization winsbecause our budget's protected,
our outcomes soar, right?
All of that.
So I love the work that I'mdoing.
I founded the company in 2021.
And yeah, I work with socialsector organizations around the
(02:24):
country.
SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
That's awesome.
I love it.
So I want to dig in.
There's so much that we couldtalk about around this.
But I think there's a reallyinteresting discussion to have
around the idea of employeeengagement because I think a lot
of I think a lot of times in alot of organizations it gets
miscontrude, misconstrued withsatisfaction.
SPEAKER_02 (02:47):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (02:48):
Right.
And we'll do it, we'll do anemployee satisfaction survey and
everybody says they love ithere, so we must be fine.
Yes.
Right.
But realistically, especially inthe nonprofit sector, we might
be satisfied because we like thework that we're doing, but we're
teetering on the edge ofburnout, right?
Because there's so much demandand so much expectation.
So talk to me a little bit aboutthe difference between
(03:11):
engagement and satisfaction andwhat those indicators are.
SPEAKER_02 (03:16):
I'm so glad that you're naming this.
I would say this is probably oneof the number one misconceptions
that I see as a consultant inthis space, right?
So when we're talking aboutemployee engagement, we're
really talking about theemployees' investment into their
work, right?
They're investing their personalenergy.
So I like to explain to leadersthink of this as like when
(03:38):
someone puts their whole head,hands, and heart into the work,
like they're really in it,right?
So this is an investment oftheir personal energy.
And satisfaction is somethingpretty different.
Satisfaction is my attitude ormy like happiness level about
the work.
They're related, but they aredistinct, right?
(03:59):
So engagement, it's the numberone driver of performance.
If you want to increase yourcommunity impact, if you want to
serve more clients, serve thoseclients better, right?
Have better outcomes, you needto worry about engagement
because engagement is the singlelargest driver of performance.
(04:20):
I could say this till my faceturns blue.
So if you really think aboutthat for a second, what I'm
saying is it's not how much youpay them.
It's not whether or not you arethree days in the office or two.
It's not when they last got araise.
It's not if you have the PPO orthe HMO offering, despite all
the hullabaloo that can occurwith that.
Yeah.
(04:40):
Those are all indicators ofsatisfaction.
And so I want you to imagine inyour brain, let's say you have
an employee who is kind of justgoing through the motions,
right?
As you said, teetering towardsburnout, maybe.
What is going on for thatperson?
That is a person who is probablysatisfied, meaning they're
(05:02):
getting a paycheck, they feelpretty comfortable.
There's nothing at work that'slike really pushing them out.
Like generally speaking, they'rehappy, they're content, but
they're not engaged.
They're not investing ofthemselves in the work, which
means performance is suffering,right?
So I will say, like right now,this is just a very timely topic
(05:25):
in 2025, because we're in adifferent financial moment as a
country.
So if you remember theconversations a few years ago
during the COVID-19 pandemic, wewere talking about the great
resignation, right?
All these folks that wereresigning.
Well, we had really low rates ofengagement in the United States
at that time, but we also feltpretty secure with the economy.
(05:49):
We felt that if we resign fromour jobs, the grass will be
greener somewhere else, or atleast just as green, and we'll
be able to, right, like getanother job.
What's happening now?
And Gallup just put out earlierthis year their most recent
data, we're at kind of a 10-yearlow for engagement in this
country across sectors.
(06:09):
But the difference is employeesaren't leaving because they're
not confident that they're goingto be able to get another job.
So if they're satisfied withtheir paycheck and they're
generally content with theirrelationships with colleagues
and they feel okay, even ifthey're not engaged, they're
sticking around.
And that means that as leaders,we need to be much more aware of
(06:31):
this difference betweenengagement and satisfaction
because our outcomes are goingto suffer.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Is this because I feel like for a while in the
headlines, we had this everyonewas all of a sudden terrified of
the quiet quitting.
SPEAKER_02 (06:44):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Is that a lack of engagement or is that a separate
thing altogether?
SPEAKER_02 (06:49):
Yeah, I mean, it depends.
Well, I will say, generallyspeaking, I think yes, it's a
lack of engagement.
Like they're disinvesting ordeinvesting their personal
energy from the work, but theyare not leaving.
So that is exactly the situationI just described.
They are satisfied with theirpaycheck, they are generally
satisfied with, you know, theirrelationships at work or their
(07:10):
benefits or whatever thesituation is, but they're not
putting their whole head, hands,and heart.
They're not engaging in what wecall citizenship behaviors.
You know, sure I'll volunteer toplan that event, sure, I'll
serve on this committee, sureI'll do that outreach work, sure
I'll write up a blurb for thefundraising team on, you know, a
recent success story.
(07:30):
Those are the things they're notdoing.
They're doing the bare minimum.
That is exactly right when wehave low engagement but decent
satisfaction.
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SPEAKER_01 (08:34):
Oh, yeah, there's probably a lot more of that in
my department than I was waswilling to admit because I
assumed the satisfaction ratewas fine.
I guess two questions.
One, are there key indicatorsthat you look for that really
like kind of measure out howunengaged someone is?
(08:57):
And at what point does thatbecome something we need to
address?
And two, once we identify thatit's a problem, then what?
Because if it's not like I can'tuh I'm putting myself into their
shoes at the moment, right?
I can if somebody's dissatisfiedwith their paycheck or with
their health benefits or theiruh amount of PTO time that they
(09:19):
are allotted every year, thoseare tangible things that I can
go to the mat for and fight for.
Right to try and make someonecare and go above and beyond, I
feel like as a leader is a wholelot harder.
So once we identify that it's aproblem, then what?
SPEAKER_02 (09:34):
Yeah.
Okay, so two questions there.
This is really juicy stuff.
First and foremost, you know,are there key indicators?
Absolutely, right?
And there are plenty ofcompanies out there, they'll be
happy to sell you on them.
You don't need, I mean, it'slovely to hire one of these
companies, it makes thingsreally easy.
Um, it's nice to have anindependent consultant because
(09:55):
it can make the data feel moreanonymous and safer for folks.
So it's more likely to beauthentic data, but you don't
need to spend that kind ofmoney.
And if if folks are listeningand they're in a really small
nonprofit or mid-sizednonprofit, um, they're worried
about budget right now and theydon't want to invest, you can
get free employee engagementassessments online.
(10:16):
There's actually one, I'm happyto give you this link.
There's one on my website, youcan just download it, but
there's others available online.
And really, what you're lookingat with an employee engagement
assessment, there are threedrivers of engagement.
Um, this all comes from thiswork stems from a study done by
a guy by the name of WilliamKahn in 1990.
(10:36):
So, this is all the most, youknow, last 25 years that we've
really focused on this.
I will say as an aside, thatstudy had some pretty
significant limitations.
But since then, that work hasbeen replicated across the
globe, across industries, acrosscultures.
And what we find is that theresults are pretty much the same
(10:57):
everywhere.
Meaning these are like kind ofhuman connection type, right?
This is a basic intrinsic factabout humans and who we are and
how we relate to one another.
We are inherently creatures ofconnection, right?
And we thrive in community.
And I think that like reallyjives with a lot of the
(11:18):
nonprofit mindset.
So, um, but these are the threedrivers, right?
Here you go.
It's psychological safety, whichis the freedom I have to bring
my full self into work.
We have psychologicalmeaningfulness, and I have a lot
of leaders tell me, oh,meaningfulness, right?
Well, everyone here is drawn tothe mission, so the work is
meaningful.
(11:38):
Oh, not so fast, right?
Meaningfulness is a little bitdeeper than that.
It's really about on a dailybasis.
Do I feel like I'm gettingreciprocal energy from what I
put in?
SPEAKER_01 (11:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (11:53):
Okay.
This we can we can cut and teasethat out if you're curious about
that.
The third one, so we havepsychological safety,
meaningfulness.
The third one is availability.
And I often encourage people tothink about psychological
availability as listen, you onlyhave so much brain space at any
given time for everything inyour life.
And so the literature talksabout well, what takes up that
(12:15):
space?
And we use the termdistractions, which I think can
be kind of a negative term, butthey could be personal
distractions.
So let's say you're undergoingcancer treatment, right?
Or you're caring for a familymember, right?
Before you come into work thatday, there's already some space
getting taken up, right?
Your dog is sick, your kid'slate to school, you know, like
whatever.
And then for those things, a lotof our organizations, we hope
(12:38):
that we have really good HRpolicies and procedures.
We want people to take the timethey need to take care of
personal things and come back.
So, where I would encourageleaders to focus is this other
side, which I call professionaldistractions.
And that's tension on teams.
I don't feel comfortable with mysupervisor.
I think organizationalleadership is hiding something.
(12:59):
I'm worried about the potentialfor layoffs.
I don't know why no one has toldme what's happening with federal
funding.
I'm following the news, ourbudgets are getting cut.
Why hasn't anyone said anything?
Yeah.
Right.
That's the stuff that takes usaway from really engaging fully
in the work and getting creativewith the work, right?
(13:20):
And investing our whole selvesin the work.
So psychological safety,meaningfulness, and
availability.
So when you're looking atemployee engagement assessments,
when you find them online, whatyou'll see is most of them are
looking at indicators for eachof these things.
Like psychological safety is itdoes include some equity and
(13:42):
inclusion measures, right?
Yeah.
I be who I am at work withoutcode switching constantly or
masking all day, right?
That mental energy, that mentalgymnastics, it's gonna take away
space that I have to engage.
But it's also, can I disagreewith a colleague as long as I'm
respectful or do I feel like I'mgetting my head bit off, right?
Yeah, it's okay to providefeedback to leadership.
(14:04):
Again, as long as I'mrespectful.
This is psychological safety.
So the indicators for that aregonna include things like, you
know, I trust leadership or Itrust my direct supervisor, I
believe that our team is strong,things like that.
For meaningfulness, you're gonnasee things that have to do with
creativity and autonomy in thework.
This is like I have my uniqueskills.
(14:25):
I'm not just a number, I'm ahuman.
I have big goals at work, andthen I have the creativity and
autonomy to dig into them.
Why?
Because like it feels reallygood when we're given a problem
and we can solve it, right?
So meaningfulness indicatorslook like that.
And then availability is gonnabe everything from like imposter
syndrome, lack of confidence,lack of training to do my job,
(14:49):
right?
To also things like thedistractions we just mentioned,
right?
So it can be what's pulling myenergy away from the work at
hand.
Now, you can, I would, I wouldsay as a baseline, I always
recommend that organizations doan employee engagement survey
every six months.
It's also a recommendation fromGallup.
So I didn't just wake up thismorning and make that up.
It's a great baseline.
(15:10):
If you're an organization thatis actively struggling with
engagement, you might want to doit more frequently.
You might want to do it everyquarter.
Here's the thing with that.
I just feel like this is really,really important.
It's not enough to just do anassessment.
You have got to close the loop.
I see organizational leadersfall into this trap time and
(15:32):
time again.
Here's what happens.
If there's a problem withengagement, let's say there's a
problem with psychologicalsafety, people think they're
even like the stink eye toleadership, right?
They're like, I don't trustthem, I'm not sure what's going
on, but they're afraid to saysomething.
Well, here comes an anonymoussurvey.
Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna saysomething, I'm gonna speak up.
And it's a little scary forthem, but they go ahead and do
(15:53):
that.
And then they hear back nothing.
SPEAKER_01 (15:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (15:58):
And they don't know if leaders heard them, and now
they're even more scared andmore mistrustful, right?
So we need to report back, andit could just be a couple of
quick slides.
Here's the top three themes thatI heard.
And you know, if the themesrelate to leadership and they're
critical of leadership, we can,I mean, this is a little bit
more of a 201 kind ofconversation, but how we resolve
(16:22):
these issues is by focusing onthose building blocks, often of
trust.
And so, trust, trustworthiness.
How do you get to trust?
You build your trustworthinessfirst.
It's all about transparency,vulnerability, and integrity.
I'm gonna do what I say I'mgonna do when I don't, I'm gonna
own it.
And so this is a perfectopportunity to practice that,
right?
You've got some criticalfeedback, practice appropriate
(16:45):
vulnerability, put it on theside and don't put everything,
not saying you have to bear yoursoul to staff.
Sure.
Listen, point number three, Iwant everybody to know that a
lot of the feedback we heard, itwas critical of leadership and
the way that we've beenproviding feedback or the way
we've been responding to youknow changes in our funding
sources.
And um I don't have all thedetails, or I'm not gonna share
(17:06):
all the details now, but I willtell you that the message has
been received and we are workingon a plan to be more transparent
with you moving forward.
Um, and we'll check in aboutthat next quarter, that kind of
thing, right?
Like that level ofvulnerability, I think adds that
human element and it makespeople realize, like, oh, okay,
they're not hiding something,right?
Yeah, to being honest.
(17:27):
So this is a very long-windedanswer, but I would say like
those are the indicators folksare gonna want to look for.
And if there's a problem, you'regonna, depending on where your
indicators take you, if theproblem is with meaningfulness,
we've got to find creative waysto engage people in the the
meaning of the work and helpthem understand or help them see
(17:47):
that they're getting somethingback from the energy they're
putting in.
SPEAKER_01 (17:50):
Yeah.
So that's great.
So let's, I'm gonna flip thescript for a second.
If someone is listening who ismaybe not the leader, right?
Or they are they're working fora nonprofit and they're finding
themselves in a place where theyare recognizing themselves in
what you're saying aboutemployees who are disengaged or
(18:13):
maybe not feeling safe.
How do we, if we're in thatboat, how do we go about
addressing those issues,especially if we're not working
for an organization that's doingsome of the survey work or who's
you know has a mechanism fordriving that?
Because I could see wherethere's a real like I don't want
to rock the boat, I don't wantto be the one that's
(18:33):
complaining, I don't necessarilywant to take the emotionally
vulnerable risk of bringing myconcerns to my boss, right?
Because there could be all sortsof things that go along with
that.
So if we're finding ourselves ina place where we are feeling
disconnected, feeling unengaged,just kind of eh about the whole
thing within our organization,then what what are some things
(18:56):
that we can do personally tohelp drive that from the bottom?
SPEAKER_02 (19:01):
Yeah.
So I mean, I a lot of theclients that I work with are
what I would describe asmid-level managers.
So anyway, from supervisors todirectors.
Um, and then of course I do havelike some some more executive
circles, but it's a very timelyquestion, Megan, because in
2024, the largest gaps inengagement in the United States
(19:22):
were among managers.
And managers dipped, I think itwas 5%, which if you're not
checking this data, thatprobably doesn't mean much.
That's a huge drop for a oneyear year over year, 5% for
managers.
And among women managers, it was7%.
Here's the problem with that.
The number one person who hasthe power to increase someone's
(19:49):
level of engagement is theirdirect supervisor.
SPEAKER_01 (19:53):
So if we And if that person is unengaged and
increasingly higher rate.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (20:00):
You have we have like a little bit of a crisis
going on right now where ourmanagers are feeling stretched.
And you know, this makes perfectsense to me because the job of a
mid-level manager has changeddramatically in the last couple
of decades.
Um, we're expecting managers todo not just like, let's say
they're doing human servicestype work, right?
They're not just doing casework,they still are working with
clients, they're still doingevents, they're still doing
(20:21):
whatever, but they're alsomanaging people.
And nine times out of 10,they're not getting any training
on how to do that.
SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (20:28):
Here's a fast, easy solution among managers who are
disengaged.
We can cut that rate ofdisengagement in half if we give
them role-specific leadershiptraining.
So that's really, and that'sdirectly related to their what
we would call psychologicalavailability, right?
(20:49):
I don't feel that I know I'mbeing asked to do these things.
These problems are insane, and Ihave no idea how to fix them.
I don't have the training, Idon't feel supported.
I'm asking for help, but myexecutive is just as stressed
out as I am, right?
Simple fix, invest.
You know, if you think about it,if the training's a couple
thousand bucks, 500 bucks, thinkabout the cost of the ROI on the
(21:14):
training rather than risking theturnover and having this
reciprocal effect on everyonethat person supervises.
I just need to see smart one.
So that's that's a fast tip.
Um, if you yourself arelistening to this and you're
like, yes, I am superdisengaged, I would encourage
folks to manage up.
And I know we use that term andpeople are like managing up,
(21:35):
like I don't even really knowwhat that means, right?
So the thing is, because so muchof this relates to leadership,
there's only so much that anindividual actor can really do,
right?
There is actually, I could givepeople some links if they're
interested.
There's a great book called Loveand Work by Marcus Buckingham.
(21:56):
He's the co-founder ofStrengthsbinder, if you know
Works Gallop.
And uh he so he put out thisbook a few years ago during the
pandemic, Love and Work, and hetalks to individual folks.
Now, one thing I'll say is I'lltell you about managing up in a
second, but one thing he says islisten, the majority of people
who are unhappy with their rolesactually say that they have the
(22:20):
power to change things forthemselves, but they don't do
it.
And this is like this weird trapwe find ourselves in, right?
We get we get downtrodden, weget complacent, and also
sometimes it's scary to ask forwhat we need.
So that leads me back tomanaging up.
I encourage people like, whatdoes managing up mean?
It's I would say it's acombination of things.
(22:41):
It's speaking up for yourself,but it's doing it in a way that
your leaders can hear whatyou're saying, right?
And our bodies, we're reallyprimed.
I'm big on trauma-informedpractices.
Our bodies are primed to sort oflook for threats.
And we have this cortisolpumping and we have this
adrenaline pumping.
How do we approach people withrequests in a way that they can
(23:04):
hear us?
Well, we're gonna do it in areally specific way to try to
make them, you know, hear whatwe're saying so it's not a
threat, right?
We're collaborating with them,we're identifying a problem and
we're presenting a solution,we're asking for their input,
right?
We're um doing that in a waythat is like pretty safe.
(23:25):
We're not coming at them withaccusatory, we're we're not
pointing fingers.
So if folks are interested inthat, you know, that's just
where I would start.
And I would say, like, if you'retrying and trying and trying and
the message is not gettingacross, then we're in a
different camp.
As a leader, this is when thedisengagement, not like this
(23:45):
middle of the road, I'm notnecessarily engaged or
disengaged, the full-on activedisengagement, which is when we
see people looking for jobs atwork, right, planning to leave,
telling all their friends what ahorrible agency this is, right?
Telling people not to come hereanymore.
When people are asking forsupport and they're doing it in
an appropriate way and theydon't feel heard, that
(24:06):
reverberates and pushes theminto that act of disengagement.
So I just encourage folks, youknow, speak up.
I cannot guarantee that even ifyou use all the tools and you're
the most appropriate, thatyou're always gonna get what you
want.
But you'll get information andresponse that will help you
determine how you move forward.
SPEAKER_01 (24:23):
That's so good.
Okay, so I wanna we're justgonna keep speaking to different
audiences with this topic.
So I'd love to talk to at thispoint, that very top leader who
maybe could feel called outright now by the lack of
(24:45):
engagement for their employees.
How did they help to change ourculture?
SPEAKER_03 (24:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
Is there is transparency the top thing they
can do, or is there anactionable, like, hey, this is a
really great place where I ampersonally committing to
changing the culture around hereand to changing how we
communicate with each other andto building that level of
communication.
What is what's the kind of thetop piece for the top leaders
right now?
(25:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
So I mean, one thing I will say, here's the preface,
right?
Which is engagement can sufferbased on any of those three
drivers.
Yeah.
If you have a big problem withmeaningfulness, your solutions
need to target meaningfulness.
SPEAKER_01 (25:26):
Okay.
SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
But what I see very typically, I do see a crisis of
trust in a lot of organizations,right?
And this is not necessarily likewe're not pointing fingers here,
right?
This is not in the business oflike shaming executive leaders.
In fact, most of the executivesI work with are trying so hard
(25:48):
and kind of bending overbackwards to increase their
engagement and satisfactionmetrics.
I think where we go wrong isthat not everyone on staff is
receiving the information and wedon't have that level of
transparency to give us theprecursors to trust.
(26:10):
So if you're listening to thisas an executive leader and this
is resonating, like, yeah, nomatter what I do, I'm the
narrative in our organization isstill that I'm out to get
people, or our team is out toget people, or HR is out to fire
people, or we're not beinghonest, or we don't care about
people, or we're not payingthem, whatever that narrative
(26:31):
is.
What I would say is usuallythere's this lack of trust.
And before we get to trust, wehave to build trustworthiness.
You have to be worthy of trustbefore it magically occurs,
right?
Yeah.
That is all about integrity,vulnerability, right?
So transparency.
So do what you say you're gonnado when you can't, because life
(26:53):
happens, own it and be human.
Again, like I mentioned thiscall, right?
But like that appropriatevulnerability.
So here's what that sounds like.
And Megan, I'm gonna use theexample you just started with
because that's a perfect part.
When executive leaders realizethat there's a deep-rooted
problem with this, first of all,I would say, can you make it a
we problem?
(27:13):
Right.
So this is like you're having atown hall, you're you're at
staff meeting, you're you knowgetting all stuff together in
some way, and you areappropriately vulnerable.
You say, All right, I just wanteveryone to know the number one
thing in my mind right now isour organizational culture.
Over the last 10 months, I'mtotally making this up right
now, right?
(27:33):
But like over the last year,whatever, I'm continuously
hearing this narrative or thesestories.
And I'm really curious aboutthat.
I want this to be a place wherefolks feel comfortable, folks
feel like they can be themselvesand they're here and they can do
their best work.
And I want to create thatenvironment.
(27:53):
To that end, introduce employeeengagement survey number one,
right?
And I want your feedback.
And here's the plan, but likelay it out for them, be
transparent.
Here's the plan.
You're gonna, there's a two-weekwindow, we're gonna do this
survey, and then you can expectthat results will come back in
about six weeks.
We're gonna give high-levelresults, we're gonna keep people
informed.
(28:14):
Maybe you collaborate, maybe yousay, is uh if there's any staff
that are interested in workingon a you know, a team to foster
these initiatives, we're gonnahave the openings for that,
right?
Like collaboration,transparency, all of those
things are the building blocks.
If there was a number one pieceof advice I would say to leaders
(28:37):
who are struggling with culturechallenges, just because I see
trust come up so much, I wouldsay your number one advice is
ask for feedback often inmultiple formats, right?
Over and over this if it'sanonymous or name optional.
And if it's scary for people,right?
And I get that folks canunleash, right, in an anonymous
(28:58):
format.
But here's the thing you cannotfix a problem that you don't
know about.
And if they're thinking it,they're saying it, whether
they're saying it to you orthey're saying it to someone
else.
And that's brand.
So, you know, getting that outthere, closing the loop,
reporting back the feedback, andyou're gonna continuously do
this probably every quarter ifyou're actively struggling with
(29:20):
engagement until you find you'reback on track.
SPEAKER_01 (29:24):
That's so good.
So typically this season on thepodcast, I've been asking
everyone as a closing questionof what would your one piece of
advice or encouragement orwisdom be?
But there it was, I love it.
Yeah, actually do the work.
Yeah.
So, but I do want to certainlygive you time to answer that
question as well.
(29:45):
So, if there was another pieceof encouragement or wisdom that
you would pass along tononprofit leaders at this point,
what would that encouragementbe?
SPEAKER_02 (29:54):
Yeah.
I'll say one other thing wehaven't really touched upon,
which is that a lot of timesthese issues.
Connect also to narrativesaround equity and inclusion or
the lack of organization.
Right.
And things get really sticky.
I would encourage leaders not tobe afraid.
I think sometimes we're afraidthat if we start the surveys or
(30:16):
we ask people what they think orwe invite their participation,
we're going to open up Pandora'sbox and all heck is going to
break loose, right?
Yeah.
And it might, right?
Like as a consultant, I oftentell people, listen, if we're
going to go into thisengagement, I need you to know
we have to see it throughbecause it's like when you have
a messy closet.
Sometimes you take everythingout before you can put it back
(30:36):
together nicely, right?
Yeah.
But even in the messiest ofcircumstances, do not be afraid.
People want to be heard, right?
We can go too far on that and westill need to be comfortable
setting boundaries, but there'sa way to set those boundaries in
a way that is still respectful,right?
And doesn't sacrificeengagement.
(30:57):
So don't be afraid to dig in.
You will, if you can get throughit to the other side, you will
see that there's a ton ofpossibilities waiting for you.
And you can increase performanceand increase the culture in ways
you never thought were possible.
Um, I have clients who say it'sjust so much better than I ever
imagined.
Yeah, but you've got to getstarted.
(31:19):
And I know that's the scarypart.
SPEAKER_01 (31:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (31:21):
Be afraid to jump in.
SPEAKER_01 (31:22):
I love it.
Well, Catherine, thank you somuch.
I think this has been somereally helpful information, if
nothing else, to level seteveryone's expectations and help
really understand the differencebetween engagement and anything
else and how to maybe right theship a little bit in that
regard.
So I appreciate all that you hadto share.
That was great.
SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
Awesome.
Well, thanks for having me,Megan.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (31:45):
Absolutely.
And if you'd like to hear morefrom Catherine, we would love to
have you join us for Cause Campthis year.
It's gonna be November 4th and5th in Pittsburgh.
Uh, Catherine will be on theslate of speakers sharing about
that as well.
But we'd love to see you there.
So uh this kind of training andthis kind of insight is what
we're doing for two days.
So we'd love to see you be therea part of that.
(32:05):
Uh, this has been anotherepisode of the Nonprofit Hub
Radio Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Speer, andwe'll see you next time.
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