November 22, 2024 • 30 mins
Discover the untapped potential of modern philanthropy with Meghan Speer featuring Rick Dunham, founder and chairman of Dunham Company, as we unravel the myths surrounding generational giving trends. Contrary to popular belief, younger generations, including Gen Z, are showing a vibrant engagement in philanthropy, though in diverse and innovative ways compared to their predecessors. Rick shares fascinating insights from the Generosity Commission's report, shedding light on how nonprofits can harness the synergistic power of giving and volunteering. He offers practical strategies that can help organizations, especially those like food banks, drastically cut operational costs and increase donor involvement by engaging them as volunteers.
For over four decades, Rick Dunham has been at the forefront of marketing and fundraising for Christian nonprofits. In 2002, he founded Dunham + Company, which has become a global leader in providing multi-channel strategies across some of the world’s most influential sectors. Through radio and television, local churches and overseas missions, medical relief and philanthropic initiatives, Dunham + Company is multiplying the reach of the gospel. The company currently serves nearly 100 clients in the United States, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand – whose collective effort is reaching nearly every corner of the globe. He serves as a member of the board of The Giving Institute and is a former chair of the Giving USA Foundation, which publishes the most widely respected annual report on giving in the U.S. He has been published and quoted in the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Washington Post and more.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear.
Host Megan Spear joined todayby Rick Dunham, who's the
founder and chairman of DunhamCompany and who brings decades
of experience to helpingorganizations increase their
impact across all of theirchannels, especially through
fundraising.
Super excited to have Rick ontoday with all of his wealth of
(00:38):
information, but specifically inhis role with the Generosity
Commission, to talk about thenew report that they've just put
out.
So, rick, welcome to the show.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Thank you, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So tell us a little bit about the Generosity
Commission, for those who mightnot have heard of it, and then
we'll dig into the report ofwhat you all have found recently
.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Sure.
So the genesis of this isthere's an association called
the Giving Institute.
Next year it'll turn 90.
It started as the AmericanAssociation of Fundraising
Council back in 1935.
And the Giving Institute is thegroup that ultimately started
publishing GivingUSA and thenset up the GivingUSA Foundation.
(01:18):
So GivingUSA is the longestrunning report on philanthropic
giving in America.
It's the gold standard for alot of practitioners to
understand the longitudinal dataaround giving in America.
Dunham Company has been amember of the Giving Institute
since 2010.
(01:39):
I served as chair of thefoundation board and during that
time we began conversationsaround the need for a new
commission on looking atphilanthropic giving.
Back in the 1970s the FilerCommission did something very
similar to this.
So, really coming out of we setup a working group and that
(02:00):
working group eventually becamethe steering committee for the
Generosity Commissioner andthere were a number of leading
thinkers around andpractitioners around
philanthropy.
So Rockefeller Foundation wasinvolved, Candid was involved, A
number of other organizations.
So the goal was to take areally hard look at the trends
(02:24):
in philanthropy in America andthe expressions of generosity,
and the commission itself reallyfocused in on the giving to
nonprofit organizations.
The trend has been that andyou'll see in the reports that
the amount given every year hasgone up but the actual
participation rate by householdsin America has gone down.
(02:46):
So they're trying to understandthat dynamic and what really is
at play and what's impactedthat.
So that was the purpose of thecommission and then, obviously,
the report, which looked at ninedifferent recommendations.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Okay, so let's start there.
I think one of the things thatI think was so interesting in
the report itself is aroundyounger generations.
Right, there's all this talkabout younger generations not
caring and they don't want to beinvolved.
They're not going to be doingthings the same way.
Takeaway from the report wasaround how to about the fact
(03:24):
that we shouldn't be ignoringthose Gen Z folks and getting
them involved.
So let's start with that.
Talk to us a little bit aboutsome of the findings there in
general and what the researchwas showing.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So obviously this is.
It's really interesting to mebecause this is actually what
was the narrative aroundmillennials five, seven, eight
years ago.
Sure, sure, yeah, millennialsI'm old enough to remember that
when this was, the boomers, whenthey're at the same stage of
life, face the same kind ofnarrative that they just aren't
(03:57):
going to mirror the samegenerosity as the older
generation.
Charities are going to be introuble and, of course, the
report found just the oppositeand our own research shows the
same thing is that youngergenerations are highly motivated
around volunteering and giving.
It just may look a littledifferent than what we're used
to, and I think that's part ofone of the findings of the
(04:17):
report.
A recommendation was to takeyouth seriously, as both givers,
even some of the most recentreports, show that they're
trending more conservative thanmany people thought.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So talk a little bit about that connection between
giving and volunteering.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Because I think that's an interesting piece of
this as well.
Generosity doesn't have to justbe financial as much.
Obviously, an organizationneeds money to function, but
generosity is a much broaderterm, and I liked the
connections of volunteerism inthis, so let's talk a little bit
about that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah.
So, and I think that's why theylooked at both giving and
volunteering, becausevolunteering does have a
financial impact on anorganization when they can
forego paying somebody to do acertain function and having
volunteers come in and do thatwork.
So it is an important part ofgenerosity.
So what we've seen over theyears and there's a number of
(05:09):
studies around this is that whenyou have donors who also
volunteer, they have the highestlifetime value.
They're the ones that are mostengaged and committed.
So many organizations, as aresult, focus not just on
getting the donation but givingopportunity for those donors to
(05:29):
become involved in volunteering.
Then you do have those whovolunteer their time and that is
their contribution, and I thinkobviously it really depends on
the kind of organization.
But we've got one ministry thatwe've worked with for 20 years
and they have a very sizablevolunteer group that does a lot
(05:50):
of.
Actually, when we do mailingsand stuff, they're the ones that
have stuffed the packages anddone a lot of the manual labor
that normally would have costthat charity quite a bit of
money.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, so when it comes to those volunteers and
that connection, are theretakeaways that we have seen
about whether it's in the reportor just that you have seen over
the years that are strategiesfor folks to engage volunteers
and move them to donors, or whocan get the donors to be more
(06:21):
active as volunteers?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yeah, so what I've seen over time is that it's rare
for those who volunteerinitially to become donors.
Normally those who initiallyvolunteer the majority that is
their contribution.
But what we have seen highsuccess on is having donors be
(06:44):
given volunteer opportunitiesand getting them to engage
deeper, because obviously andit's so different depending on
the kind of organization- Sure.
So for some organizations thereare a plethora of opportunities
for volunteerism.
What I think of there would bea food bank or a rescue mission
or something like that, wherethere's a number of things that
(07:06):
volunteers can come in and do.
Obviously, habitat for Humanityhas built a whole nonprofit off
of volunteerism.
So there just aren't that manyopportunities because, for
instance, we work with a numberof what I would call
content-based ministries.
They have very littleopportunity for volunteerism.
(07:26):
So it depends on the kind oforganization you are.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
But the more you can get people donors involved in
volunteerism, the higherlikelihood that they will stay
with you over time oforganizations talking about
lately is the idea of andespecially maybe more on that,
because you and I cross over alot on that content-based
ministry side.
Is turning those donors or thatcommunity into online advocates
(07:54):
right and encouraging them tobe sharing the content that
you're putting out and to bemaking referrals and bringing
other people alongside and intothe ministry?
Is that something that theGenerosity Commission has looked
at?
Also, outside, we have physicaldonors.
We have actual volunteers.
Has the social media influenceror social media kind of
(08:15):
advocate started to make a playin generosity as well, or we're
not quite there yet?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They're not quite there yet they did talk.
They did.
One of the findings and one ofthe recommendations was to
encourage public figures in abroad range of fields to become
advocates of the organizationsthey support and be vocal in
terms of what they're doing andencouraging others to become
involved.
(08:41):
It's what we're calling alittle bit the national
conversation coming out of theGenerosity Commission.
How do we spread through ournetworks the opportunity to
become involved in charitableactivity, whether that's giving
or volunteering?
But the Generosity Commissiondidn't drill down deeply on that
one.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, I think that's part of the ongoing conversation
.
Right, yeah, I think that'spart of the ongoing conversation
.
Right is, how do we move peoplefrom deeper into relationship
with the organization?
And some of those onlineadvocacy options I think are
going to be especially as wetalk about Gen Z and Gen Alpha
coming up are going to be moreand more critical.
So I'm excited to see wherethat conversation plays out.
The other thing that I thoughtwas so interesting out of the
(09:22):
commission report was the Idon't know if it's a
recommendation necessarily, buton getting businesses to
encourage generosity withintheir employees.
Talk about that and that kindof that finding and then what
the next level would look likefor that.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So yeah, I think one of the goals coming out of the
generosity commission was tohave businesses culturally
embrace the idea of giving andvolunteering and encouraging
employees to be more engaged asa result, and I think
(09:59):
historically, a number ofcorporations this goes back many
years set up matching giftprograms as just one example.
That would encourage employeesto give and the corporation
would match that gift up to acertain amount, and I think it's
that kind of behavior is whatthey're really encouraging,
(10:20):
because obviously that thenencourages more participation in
charitable giving andvolunteering.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Is that something that you have seen?
Something that you have seenand there's many organizations,
obviously, that offer United Wayand you can pick your
particular nonprofit throughthat, or they have other
programs that they're workingthrough.
Is that something wherenonprofits could take the lead
and be reaching out to these,like to local companies in their
area or to companies that mightbe vendors of theirs, to help
(10:51):
support that?
Is there a nonprofit way tohelp drive those, or does it
need to be driven by thebusiness itself?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, I think the latter mostly, and one of the
things.
There's two points I would make.
One is what is the propertarget audience for you as an
organization, as a donoraudience?
What's that profile of donorthat's most likely to support
you?
As a donor audience, what'sthat profile of donor that's
most likely to support you?
And secondly, when we look atcorporate giving, it has been at
(11:22):
5% of the total charitable piefor decades and has not moved.
So I would much more encourageorganizations to really
understand better who theircurrent donors are and how can I
find a mirror of that audienceto approach?
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Speaker 2 (12:34):
Are there things that leaders can do?
I know we have a number offolks who listen to this podcast
who are maybe not necessarilyrunning nonprofits, but they're
in the vendor space that helpsto serve those.
They're leaders in their ownbusinesses, right, who are
helping to serve thoseorganizations.
What are some things that thoseleaders can do within their
organization to build thatculture and to encourage that
(12:56):
amongst the people that theylead and the employees that they
have?
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yeah, I think a number of ideas that people have
talked about and things I'veseen is corporations setting up
a volunteer day where they allowemployees to go out and
volunteer in the community andto engage local nonprofits
there's a number of corporationsI know embrace that kind of
behavior.
The second one is what I justmentioned, that corporations set
(13:21):
up a matching program that letsemployees know that you're
going to match whatever giftthey give up to a certain amount
.
So I think, again, it dependson the kind of organization you
are, corporation you are andyour role in the community, and
I've caught a lot of faith-basedorganizations connecting with
and volunteering with even thelocal church.
(13:42):
So, yeah, those two ideas aloneI think are worth pursuing as a
corporation.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, and this is one of those examples where where
the top-down leadership matters,because it's one thing to just
say like give it lip service,for example, but when they see
that modeled and when we'reinvested like you can see
investment from the company, youcan see the day off all of the
to go volunteer, those kinds ofthings when you can actually
(14:11):
physically see that those thingsmatter to the leadership, I
think that makes a bigdifference as well.
Absolutely, I'm curious to knowfrom the report what stood out
to you most.
Was there anything thatsurprised you in the data?
What was your kind of biggesttakeaway from it?
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I think the research that was done.
That is the background to thereport and to the
recommendations Back in 2017,the Tax Cut and Jobs Act was
created at the very end of 2017.
One of the unintendedconsequences of that was to
double the standard deductionand one of the unintended
(14:51):
consequences of that was a dropin participation rates.
So one of the unintendedconsequences of that was a drop
in participation rates.
So one of the studies that wasdone from Indiana University
came out Lilly Family School ofPhilanthropy.
They came out with a study thatshowed that, basically, the
doubling of the standarddeduction probably costs around
(15:11):
$20 billion in lost revenue tocharitable organizations.
So one of the most deductionprobably costs around $20
billion in lost revenue tocharitable organizations.
So one of the most importantthings I believe coming out of
this has to do with publicpolicy and the use of the
charitable tax deduction.
So, knowing that the standarddeduction is probably not going
to change, one of the thingsthat's being worked on the Hill
right now and we're actually, asa company, involved in this is
(15:36):
advocating for a law, newlegislation, that would enshrine
a universal charitable taxdeduction.
So that would be above the linededuction.
Before you get into the otheritemizations and what I know
what's being talked about are acap of maybe $4,500 for singles
(15:56):
and $9,000 for couples filingjointly, but I think the impact
of that would be to stimulatemore charitable giving, more
participation in charitablegiving.
Yeah, charitable giving andevery study that we've ever done
, every test we've ever run,having the potential to get a
tax deduction for charitablecontribution does stimulate
(16:19):
giving and especially stimulatesthe amount people tend to give.
So, anyway, to me one of themost important things being
worked on coming out of thiswhole thing is the work on that
universal charitable deduction.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And is that something right now that people listening
can call their representativesover, or how do they help
support that work that'shappening right now?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
So Senator Lankford is working on this on the
Republican side I forget who'son the Democrat side and that
bill's being worked on and Ithink it will probably be put
forward in the first quarter ofnext year is my guess, no later
than second quarter.
I know they want to move fairlyswiftly on it.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
I would just I would keep your eyes and ears open.
We'll obviously be reporting onthat when that bill is
presented.
We're definitely going to becommunicating on that.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I would think yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
And that's when we'll want people to contact their
representatives, their senators,to really encourage support of
that bill.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, that's exciting , though.
It's always encouraging to meto see work happening that's
going to support the cause ofgenerosity across the board.
I think that's fantastic.
Okay, so a lot of our audiencetends to be from some smaller
organizations.
The shift in generosity thatyou're that we've maybe shift is
(17:44):
the wrong word, but this, theamount of people getting
involved in generosity when itcomes to some of those smaller
organizations.
When it comes to some of thosesmaller organizations, when they
are relying so heavily ondonors, especially in the local
community, are there actionsthat they can take to get more
people involved?
(18:05):
I guess my question would bewhat would be your
recommendations to help themfill the top of the funnel and
get more people involved?
Is it changing in messaging?
Is it?
What's our approach?
Are there things that we couldbe doing to help move the needle
on how many people areconnected to nonprofits, even if
it's at a small giving level,not major?
(18:27):
How do we help them encouragegenerosity and engage more folks
?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah.
So where I start in this is howwell are you actually
stewarding the relationshipsthat you currently have?
Too many organizations arefocused on how do I get more
donors, but that actually that'simportant, but not as important
(18:54):
as stewarding thoserelationships once you have them
.
So what does if a donor, ifsomebody comes to you and
donates for the first time, whatdoes that journey to them feel
like?
How am I actually being drawnmore deeply into that
relationship?
And what's stimulating ongoingsupport?
Because getting a donor isgreat, but keeping them is more
(19:16):
important, because we can showin the data that for every year
that you keep a donor, they giveyou more money.
So retention really is theNorth Star of fundraising.
So that's where I go back andsay okay, have you had an honest
internal audit of your donorengagement process, looking
(19:39):
carefully at those steps that adonor goes through to ensure
that not only that you get thefirst gift, but you get the
second and the third gift andthat you're keeping them over
time?
So what does that?
What's the cadence ofcommunication look like?
So what does that, what's thecadence of communication look
like and I know there's a lot oforganizations that still hear
(20:01):
this that well, we've acquiredthis donor so we're not going to
bug them for a while.
No, the most likely donor togive is the one who just gave to
you.
So how quickly are you goingback, not only just with thank
you, which obviously is verycritical, but what are you doing
to give them an opportunity tomake another investment in your
organization?
And then again, a lot oforganizations are fearful of
(20:22):
over-communicating donor burnout.
I don't believe there's a thingcalled donor burnout.
I think what there is isirrelevant communication.
When donors give to you,they're giving to you because
they have an interest.
The question is, how do youleverage that interest in your
organization in a way that'srelevant to the donor and keeps
them engaged and keeps themgiving?
(20:44):
So I really think the firstorder of business is to ensure
that your donor ecosystem isbuilt in such a way that donors
are being retained.
You're optimizing that fordonor retention so that, as you
do go out and engage more donors, you can have confidence that
they'll stay with you over time.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I so appreciate the message that you just put out
there in terms of donor burnout.
We just were having thisconversation.
I put it on LinkedIn last weekbecause I received an email from
an organization that I havesupported for probably five
years now, the gist of which itcame from the chief development
officer.
The gist of the email wasbasically hey, our staff is
(21:28):
really burnt out, and we're surethat you're super burnt out as
well, so this is our onlyyear-end appeal email.
If you'd like to give us a gift, here's the link.
Wow, and it inspired no, notanything.
All I sat there thinking wasare you going to actually do the
work that I'm giving you themoney to do, or are you just
(21:49):
taking the whole rest of theyear off.
Yeah, like really the messagingaround that, that I understand
if your staff is burnt out, butlet's not assume that the donors
are as well exactly right thatI think.
So often we make assumptionsabout what donors are thinking,
so really appreciate that.
Call out that they're not burntout.
(22:11):
They're getting 17 emails a dayfrom other people.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Let's not paint them in a box or stick them in a box
and assume we know what they'rethinking.
Yeah, that email reallydefinitely proves the point of
what you just had to say.
Right Gosh, what a strangeemail that was.
Plus, you and I both know oneemail is not going to cut
through the noise.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
No, it sure isn't.
So that's where part of as youthink through again your donor
communication strategy and yourecosystem, the inbox of today is
the mailbox of yesterday.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So before the internet?
I know some of you can'timagine that, but before the
internet, when mail was aprimary way of communicating,
your mailbox was chock fullevery day and standing out was
really challenging.
Well, that's the inbox today,so it's pretty presumptive to
think that you're actually goingto cut through in an email.
Therefore, you need to make surethat you're really strong on
(23:13):
all channels of communication,and one of the data points that
we're seeing that I think issuper interesting is that direct
mail is actually increasing inpreference among the younger
generations.
They want direct mail.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Really.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yes.
So, and I first saw this acouple of years ago I was
talking to some of ourmillennial employees they go,
yeah, we never get anything.
It's so much fun to go to themailbox and actually get
something.
And so actually seeing,literally, the younger the
generation, the higher thepreference for direct mail and
over the last few studies thatinterest has only increased.
(23:52):
So it doesn't mean that they'regoing to write you a check
because they don't own acheckbook, probably, but over
50% now are saying that whenthey get direct mail they love
to go online to give, and only27% say that they'll write you a
check.
So my whole point in all ofthis how are you connecting with
your donors through multiplechannels becomes incredibly
(24:15):
important.
With your donors throughmultiple channels becomes
incredibly important, and amailing program is, I think,
vital for any organizationbecause you have a very good
chance of being only one of twoor three things that show up and
if they're a supporter, they'regoing to want to open your mail
.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, that's great.
Rick, I want to ask just as wewrap up here, obviously as
someone who has been deeplyinvolved in the nonprofit world
for all of your career, as faras I know what inspires your own
approach to generosity and howdo you like that's been such a
passion point for you.
So what inspires that?
(24:50):
And then how do you hope tomodel that to the folks at your
company and who are impacted bythe commission?
What does that look likepersonally for you?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, I think it's when you see it's really what we
even coach our clients on it'swhen you see the outcomes of an
organization that aresignificant so that when you
make that investment, lives aretruly going to be transformed,
investment lives are truly goingto be transformed.
(25:20):
So when I look at our choice ofgenerosity, we're really
focused on outcomes.
We really want to make surethat the organizations we
support my wife and I supportcan have demonstrated outcomes
in transforming lives andbecause, at the end of the day,
that's just not why we give, butit's really truly why donors
give.
It's really interesting.
We did a study among P1listeners, so those that have a
(25:45):
preferred station, so that's aP1.
So they're the most engaged inlistening to Christian radio.
So we did this study on themand we asked a number of
questions, two of which were whydo you listen?
And the response was what's init for me, encourages me, it's
positive.
Then we asked the question whydo you of the donors, of the P1
(26:06):
donors, why do you support thestation?
And the top three answers weretotally related to the mission,
related to the mission gospelsingle, I mean.
So there had been an assumptionin the industry that because
listeners tune in for what's init.
For me, that's why they'regoing to give and it's not true.
They give permission and I seethat over and over and every
(26:30):
single donor study we've done isdonors are concerned about
outcomes and about mission, sowhat I'm looking for is what
organizations deliver on theirpromise and the outcomes that
are significant.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's such a shift in messaging from what we see to
your point, with what we see alot of folks putting out so
often the solicitations I get orthe organizations I support.
We're talking about the impactto me, right Partner with us and
it'll make you feel good to bea part of this, instead of
(27:06):
showcasing what they've actuallydone.
So to me, that's a hugetakeaway from our conversation
and the commission in general,the report in general, our
conversation and the commissionin general, the report in
general.
That is something that has tobe looked at as we come into
2025 is how are you actuallyshowcasing what your
organization has done this yearand how are you crafting your
(27:28):
messaging around that to movethe organization forward?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
It's about the story of those lives being transformed
.
Can you demonstrate thatclearly?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, I think there are far too many nonprofits at
this point who would have areally hard time with that.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yep, I agree.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Do you think that negatively then impacts the
moving the needle on generosity?
Has that been a negative impactfor it?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Absolutely, absolutely.
There's a couple of otherunderlying trends generally that
have affected generosity, wherethere's been too much of a
focus on high net worthindividuals and giving it that
higher level and as a result,it's pushed to the side that
lower donor, that broad-basedmass donor approach.
So it's got to be both and itcan't be either or yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So last question, as we wrap up what is your number
one on the list ofrecommendations that have come
out in this report?
What is the one that really, ifan organization has to start
somewhere, this is the one thatyou want the takeaway from it?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, I think not necessarily coming out of the
report, because the report isreally dealing with macro issues
.
So if I'm really as anorganization, I'd probably
circle back around to what youwere just saying.
Even as you move into 2025, howwell are you actually telling
your story?
What resources are you puttinginto place to gather the stories
(28:59):
from people whose lives you'reimpacting and how well can you
actually tell that story?
Because, at the end of the day,that's what people are
ultimately going to support?
And then how do you showcasethat in your email and direct
mail, et cetera?
So, so and I, yeah, I I agreewith you is that most
organizations have not valuedthe gathering of the stories to
(29:22):
tell, to show donors what theirsupport is actually doing, and
that would, if I had onerecommendation, make that a
commitment in 25.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I love it.
So if somebody wants to dig inmore and read the generosity
commission report for themselves, or find out more about the
giving Institute and the workthat you all are doing, what's
the best way for them to connectwith all of that information?
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Uh giving instituteorg?
Um, definitely, if you go togiving instituteorg, you'll see
it there as well as uh givingUSAorg either one of those and
you should be able to find thereport there.
The subscription is prettycheap it's like $159 a year and
(30:05):
you get not only their annualreport but the special reports
on donor advised funds, legacygiving.
There's a lot of content therethat can be super helpful.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
That's great.
Well, rick, thank you so much.
We appreciate you and all ofyour work on the cause of
generosity, and thanks fortaking the time to be with us
today.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Thank you, Megan.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
My pleasure Again.
My guest has been Rick Dunham,who's the founder and chairman
of Dunham and Company.
Find out more at givingusaorg.
Thanks for joining us so much.
We'll see you next time on theNonprofit Hub Radio podcast.
If you're looking to maximize your fundraising
efforts, donorbox's onlinedonation platform is designed to
help you reach your fundraisinggoals with ease.
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Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spear.
Host Megan Spear joined todayby Rick Dunham, who's the
founder and chairman of DunhamCompany and who brings decades
of experience to helpingorganizations increase their
impact across all of theirchannels, especially through
fundraising.
Super excited to have Rick ontoday with all of his wealth of
(00:38):
information, but specifically inhis role with the Generosity
Commission, to talk about thenew report that they've just put
out.
So, rick, welcome to the show.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Thank you, great to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So tell us a little bit about the Generosity
Commission, for those who mightnot have heard of it, and then
we'll dig into the report ofwhat you all have found recently
.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Sure.
So the genesis of this isthere's an association called
the Giving Institute.
Next year it'll turn 90.
It started as the AmericanAssociation of Fundraising
Council back in 1935.
And the Giving Institute is thegroup that ultimately started
publishing GivingUSA and thenset up the GivingUSA Foundation.
(01:18):
So GivingUSA is the longestrunning report on philanthropic
giving in America.
It's the gold standard for alot of practitioners to
understand the longitudinal dataaround giving in America.
Dunham Company has been amember of the Giving Institute
since 2010.
(01:39):
I served as chair of thefoundation board and during that
time we began conversationsaround the need for a new
commission on looking atphilanthropic giving.
Back in the 1970s the FilerCommission did something very
similar to this.
So, really coming out of we setup a working group and that
(02:00):
working group eventually becamethe steering committee for the
Generosity Commissioner andthere were a number of leading
thinkers around andpractitioners around
philanthropy.
So Rockefeller Foundation wasinvolved, Candid was involved, A
number of other organizations.
So the goal was to take areally hard look at the trends
(02:24):
in philanthropy in America andthe expressions of generosity,
and the commission itself reallyfocused in on the giving to
nonprofit organizations.
The trend has been that andyou'll see in the reports that
the amount given every year hasgone up but the actual
participation rate by householdsin America has gone down.
(02:46):
So they're trying to understandthat dynamic and what really is
at play and what's impactedthat.
So that was the purpose of thecommission and then, obviously,
the report, which looked at ninedifferent recommendations.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Okay, so let's start there.
I think one of the things thatI think was so interesting in
the report itself is aroundyounger generations.
Right, there's all this talkabout younger generations not
caring and they don't want to beinvolved.
They're not going to be doingthings the same way.
Takeaway from the report wasaround how to about the fact
(03:24):
that we shouldn't be ignoringthose Gen Z folks and getting
them involved.
So let's start with that.
Talk to us a little bit aboutsome of the findings there in
general and what the researchwas showing.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So obviously this is.
It's really interesting to mebecause this is actually what
was the narrative aroundmillennials five, seven, eight
years ago.
Sure, sure, yeah, millennialsI'm old enough to remember that
when this was, the boomers, whenthey're at the same stage of
life, face the same kind ofnarrative that they just aren't
(03:57):
going to mirror the samegenerosity as the older
generation.
Charities are going to be introuble and, of course, the
report found just the oppositeand our own research shows the
same thing is that youngergenerations are highly motivated
around volunteering and giving.
It just may look a littledifferent than what we're used
to, and I think that's part ofone of the findings of the
(04:17):
report.
A recommendation was to takeyouth seriously, as both givers,
even some of the most recentreports, show that they're
trending more conservative thanmany people thought.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
So talk a little bit about that connection between
giving and volunteering.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Because I think that's an interesting piece of
this as well.
Generosity doesn't have to justbe financial as much.
Obviously, an organizationneeds money to function, but
generosity is a much broaderterm, and I liked the
connections of volunteerism inthis, so let's talk a little bit
about that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Yeah.
So, and I think that's why theylooked at both giving and
volunteering, becausevolunteering does have a
financial impact on anorganization when they can
forego paying somebody to do acertain function and having
volunteers come in and do thatwork.
So it is an important part ofgenerosity.
So what we've seen over theyears and there's a number of
(05:09):
studies around this is that whenyou have donors who also
volunteer, they have the highestlifetime value.
They're the ones that are mostengaged and committed.
So many organizations, as aresult, focus not just on
getting the donation but givingopportunity for those donors to
(05:29):
become involved in volunteering.
Then you do have those whovolunteer their time and that is
their contribution, and I thinkobviously it really depends on
the kind of organization.
But we've got one ministry thatwe've worked with for 20 years
and they have a very sizablevolunteer group that does a lot
(05:50):
of.
Actually, when we do mailingsand stuff, they're the ones that
have stuffed the packages anddone a lot of the manual labor
that normally would have costthat charity quite a bit of
money.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, so when it comes to those volunteers and
that connection, are theretakeaways that we have seen
about whether it's in the reportor just that you have seen over
the years that are strategiesfor folks to engage volunteers
and move them to donors, or whocan get the donors to be more
(06:21):
active as volunteers?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Yeah, so what I've seen over time is that it's rare
for those who volunteerinitially to become donors.
Normally those who initiallyvolunteer the majority that is
their contribution.
But what we have seen highsuccess on is having donors be
(06:44):
given volunteer opportunitiesand getting them to engage
deeper, because obviously andit's so different depending on
the kind of organization- Sure.
So for some organizations thereare a plethora of opportunities
for volunteerism.
What I think of there would bea food bank or a rescue mission
or something like that, wherethere's a number of things that
(07:06):
volunteers can come in and do.
Obviously, habitat for Humanityhas built a whole nonprofit off
of volunteerism.
So there just aren't that manyopportunities because, for
instance, we work with a numberof what I would call
content-based ministries.
They have very littleopportunity for volunteerism.
(07:26):
So it depends on the kind oforganization you are.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
But the more you can get people donors involved in
volunteerism, the higherlikelihood that they will stay
with you over time oforganizations talking about
lately is the idea of andespecially maybe more on that,
because you and I cross over alot on that content-based
ministry side.
Is turning those donors or thatcommunity into online advocates
(07:54):
right and encouraging them tobe sharing the content that
you're putting out and to bemaking referrals and bringing
other people alongside and intothe ministry?
Is that something that theGenerosity Commission has looked
at?
Also, outside, we have physicaldonors.
We have actual volunteers.
Has the social media influenceror social media kind of
(08:15):
advocate started to make a playin generosity as well, or we're
not quite there yet?
Speaker 3 (08:21):
They're not quite there yet they did talk.
They did.
One of the findings and one ofthe recommendations was to
encourage public figures in abroad range of fields to become
advocates of the organizationsthey support and be vocal in
terms of what they're doing andencouraging others to become
involved.
(08:41):
It's what we're calling alittle bit the national
conversation coming out of theGenerosity Commission.
How do we spread through ournetworks the opportunity to
become involved in charitableactivity, whether that's giving
or volunteering?
But the Generosity Commissiondidn't drill down deeply on that
one.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, I think that's part of the ongoing conversation
.
Right, yeah, I think that'spart of the ongoing conversation
.
Right is, how do we move peoplefrom deeper into relationship
with the organization?
And some of those onlineadvocacy options I think are
going to be especially as wetalk about Gen Z and Gen Alpha
coming up are going to be moreand more critical.
So I'm excited to see wherethat conversation plays out.
The other thing that I thoughtwas so interesting out of the
(09:22):
commission report was the Idon't know if it's a
recommendation necessarily, buton getting businesses to
encourage generosity withintheir employees.
Talk about that and that kindof that finding and then what
the next level would look likefor that.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
So yeah, I think one of the goals coming out of the
generosity commission was tohave businesses culturally
embrace the idea of giving andvolunteering and encouraging
employees to be more engaged asa result, and I think
(09:59):
historically, a number ofcorporations this goes back many
years set up matching giftprograms as just one example.
That would encourage employeesto give and the corporation
would match that gift up to acertain amount, and I think it's
that kind of behavior is whatthey're really encouraging,
(10:20):
because obviously that thenencourages more participation in
charitable giving andvolunteering.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Is that something that you have seen?
Something that you have seenand there's many organizations,
obviously, that offer United Wayand you can pick your
particular nonprofit throughthat, or they have other
programs that they're workingthrough.
Is that something wherenonprofits could take the lead
and be reaching out to these,like to local companies in their
area or to companies that mightbe vendors of theirs, to help
(10:51):
support that?
Is there a nonprofit way tohelp drive those, or does it
need to be driven by thebusiness itself?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Yeah, I think the latter mostly, and one of the
things.
There's two points I would make.
One is what is the propertarget audience for you as an
organization, as a donoraudience?
What's that profile of donorthat's most likely to support
you?
As a donor audience, what'sthat profile of donor that's
most likely to support you?
And secondly, when we look atcorporate giving, it has been at
(11:22):
5% of the total charitable piefor decades and has not moved.
So I would much more encourageorganizations to really
understand better who theircurrent donors are and how can I
find a mirror of that audienceto approach?
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Speaker 2 (12:34):
Are there things that leaders can do?
I know we have a number offolks who listen to this podcast
who are maybe not necessarilyrunning nonprofits, but they're
in the vendor space that helpsto serve those.
They're leaders in their ownbusinesses, right, who are
helping to serve thoseorganizations.
What are some things that thoseleaders can do within their
organization to build thatculture and to encourage that
(12:56):
amongst the people that theylead and the employees that they
have?
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yeah, I think a number of ideas that people have
talked about and things I'veseen is corporations setting up
a volunteer day where they allowemployees to go out and
volunteer in the community andto engage local nonprofits
there's a number of corporationsI know embrace that kind of
behavior.
The second one is what I justmentioned, that corporations set
(13:21):
up a matching program that letsemployees know that you're
going to match whatever giftthey give up to a certain amount
.
So I think, again, it dependson the kind of organization you
are, corporation you are andyour role in the community, and
I've caught a lot of faith-basedorganizations connecting with
and volunteering with even thelocal church.
(13:42):
So, yeah, those two ideas aloneI think are worth pursuing as a
corporation.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, and this is one of those examples where where
the top-down leadership matters,because it's one thing to just
say like give it lip service,for example, but when they see
that modeled and when we'reinvested like you can see
investment from the company, youcan see the day off all of the
to go volunteer, those kinds ofthings when you can actually
(14:11):
physically see that those thingsmatter to the leadership, I
think that makes a bigdifference as well.
Absolutely, I'm curious to knowfrom the report what stood out
to you most.
Was there anything thatsurprised you in the data?
What was your kind of biggesttakeaway from it?
Speaker 3 (14:28):
I think the research that was done.
That is the background to thereport and to the
recommendations Back in 2017,the Tax Cut and Jobs Act was
created at the very end of 2017.
One of the unintendedconsequences of that was to
double the standard deductionand one of the unintended
(14:51):
consequences of that was a dropin participation rates.
So one of the unintendedconsequences of that was a drop
in participation rates.
So one of the studies that wasdone from Indiana University
came out Lilly Family School ofPhilanthropy.
They came out with a study thatshowed that, basically, the
doubling of the standarddeduction probably costs around
(15:11):
$20 billion in lost revenue tocharitable organizations.
So one of the most deductionprobably costs around $20
billion in lost revenue tocharitable organizations.
So one of the most importantthings I believe coming out of
this has to do with publicpolicy and the use of the
charitable tax deduction.
So, knowing that the standarddeduction is probably not going
to change, one of the thingsthat's being worked on the Hill
right now and we're actually, asa company, involved in this is
(15:36):
advocating for a law, newlegislation, that would enshrine
a universal charitable taxdeduction.
So that would be above the linededuction.
Before you get into the otheritemizations and what I know
what's being talked about are acap of maybe $4,500 for singles
(15:56):
and $9,000 for couples filingjointly, but I think the impact
of that would be to stimulatemore charitable giving, more
participation in charitablegiving.
Yeah, charitable giving andevery study that we've ever done
, every test we've ever run,having the potential to get a
tax deduction for charitablecontribution does stimulate
(16:19):
giving and especially stimulatesthe amount people tend to give.
So, anyway, to me one of themost important things being
worked on coming out of thiswhole thing is the work on that
universal charitable deduction.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
And is that something right now that people listening
can call their representativesover, or how do they help
support that work that'shappening right now?
Speaker 3 (16:43):
So Senator Lankford is working on this on the
Republican side I forget who'son the Democrat side and that
bill's being worked on and Ithink it will probably be put
forward in the first quarter ofnext year is my guess, no later
than second quarter.
I know they want to move fairlyswiftly on it.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
I would just I would keep your eyes and ears open.
We'll obviously be reporting onthat when that bill is
presented.
We're definitely going to becommunicating on that.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I would think yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
And that's when we'll want people to contact their
representatives, their senators,to really encourage support of
that bill.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, that's exciting , though.
It's always encouraging to meto see work happening that's
going to support the cause ofgenerosity across the board.
I think that's fantastic.
Okay, so a lot of our audiencetends to be from some smaller
organizations.
The shift in generosity thatyou're that we've maybe shift is
(17:44):
the wrong word, but this, theamount of people getting
involved in generosity when itcomes to some of those smaller
organizations.
When it comes to some of thosesmaller organizations, when they
are relying so heavily ondonors, especially in the local
community, are there actionsthat they can take to get more
people involved?
(18:05):
I guess my question would bewhat would be your
recommendations to help themfill the top of the funnel and
get more people involved?
Is it changing in messaging?
Is it?
What's our approach?
Are there things that we couldbe doing to help move the needle
on how many people areconnected to nonprofits, even if
it's at a small giving level,not major?
(18:27):
How do we help them encouragegenerosity and engage more folks
?
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yeah.
So where I start in this is howwell are you actually
stewarding the relationshipsthat you currently have?
Too many organizations arefocused on how do I get more
donors, but that actually that'simportant, but not as important
(18:54):
as stewarding thoserelationships once you have them
.
So what does if a donor, ifsomebody comes to you and
donates for the first time, whatdoes that journey to them feel
like?
How am I actually being drawnmore deeply into that
relationship?
And what's stimulating ongoingsupport?
Because getting a donor isgreat, but keeping them is more
(19:16):
important, because we can showin the data that for every year
that you keep a donor, they giveyou more money.
So retention really is theNorth Star of fundraising.
So that's where I go back andsay okay, have you had an honest
internal audit of your donorengagement process, looking
(19:39):
carefully at those steps that adonor goes through to ensure
that not only that you get thefirst gift, but you get the
second and the third gift andthat you're keeping them over
time?
So what does that?
What's the cadence ofcommunication look like?
So what does that, what's thecadence of communication look
like and I know there's a lot oforganizations that still hear
(20:01):
this that well, we've acquiredthis donor so we're not going to
bug them for a while.
No, the most likely donor togive is the one who just gave to
you.
So how quickly are you goingback, not only just with thank
you, which obviously is verycritical, but what are you doing
to give them an opportunity tomake another investment in your
organization?
And then again, a lot oforganizations are fearful of
(20:22):
over-communicating donor burnout.
I don't believe there's a thingcalled donor burnout.
I think what there is isirrelevant communication.
When donors give to you,they're giving to you because
they have an interest.
The question is, how do youleverage that interest in your
organization in a way that'srelevant to the donor and keeps
them engaged and keeps themgiving?
(20:44):
So I really think the firstorder of business is to ensure
that your donor ecosystem isbuilt in such a way that donors
are being retained.
You're optimizing that fordonor retention so that, as you
do go out and engage more donors, you can have confidence that
they'll stay with you over time.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
I so appreciate the message that you just put out
there in terms of donor burnout.
We just were having thisconversation.
I put it on LinkedIn last weekbecause I received an email from
an organization that I havesupported for probably five
years now, the gist of which itcame from the chief development
officer.
The gist of the email wasbasically hey, our staff is
(21:28):
really burnt out, and we're surethat you're super burnt out as
well, so this is our onlyyear-end appeal email.
If you'd like to give us a gift, here's the link.
Wow, and it inspired no, notanything.
All I sat there thinking wasare you going to actually do the
work that I'm giving you themoney to do, or are you just
(21:49):
taking the whole rest of theyear off.
Yeah, like really the messagingaround that, that I understand
if your staff is burnt out, butlet's not assume that the donors
are as well exactly right thatI think.
So often we make assumptionsabout what donors are thinking,
so really appreciate that.
Call out that they're not burntout.
(22:11):
They're getting 17 emails a dayfrom other people.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Exactly right.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Let's not paint them in a box or stick them in a box
and assume we know what they'rethinking.
Yeah, that email reallydefinitely proves the point of
what you just had to say.
Right Gosh, what a strangeemail that was.
Plus, you and I both know oneemail is not going to cut
through the noise.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
No, it sure isn't.
So that's where part of as youthink through again your donor
communication strategy and yourecosystem, the inbox of today is
the mailbox of yesterday.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So before the internet?
I know some of you can'timagine that, but before the
internet, when mail was aprimary way of communicating,
your mailbox was chock fullevery day and standing out was
really challenging.
Well, that's the inbox today,so it's pretty presumptive to
think that you're actually goingto cut through in an email.
Therefore, you need to make surethat you're really strong on
(23:13):
all channels of communication,and one of the data points that
we're seeing that I think issuper interesting is that direct
mail is actually increasing inpreference among the younger
generations.
They want direct mail.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Really.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yes.
So, and I first saw this acouple of years ago I was
talking to some of ourmillennial employees they go,
yeah, we never get anything.
It's so much fun to go to themailbox and actually get
something.
And so actually seeing,literally, the younger the
generation, the higher thepreference for direct mail and
over the last few studies thatinterest has only increased.
(23:52):
So it doesn't mean that they'regoing to write you a check
because they don't own acheckbook, probably, but over
50% now are saying that whenthey get direct mail they love
to go online to give, and only27% say that they'll write you a
check.
So my whole point in all ofthis how are you connecting with
your donors through multiplechannels becomes incredibly
(24:15):
important.
With your donors throughmultiple channels becomes
incredibly important, and amailing program is, I think,
vital for any organizationbecause you have a very good
chance of being only one of twoor three things that show up and
if they're a supporter, they'regoing to want to open your mail
.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah, that's great.
Rick, I want to ask just as wewrap up here, obviously as
someone who has been deeplyinvolved in the nonprofit world
for all of your career, as faras I know what inspires your own
approach to generosity and howdo you like that's been such a
passion point for you.
So what inspires that?
(24:50):
And then how do you hope tomodel that to the folks at your
company and who are impacted bythe commission?
What does that look likepersonally for you?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Yeah, I think it's when you see it's really what we
even coach our clients on it'swhen you see the outcomes of an
organization that aresignificant so that when you
make that investment, lives aretruly going to be transformed,
investment lives are truly goingto be transformed.
(25:20):
So when I look at our choice ofgenerosity, we're really
focused on outcomes.
We really want to make surethat the organizations we
support my wife and I supportcan have demonstrated outcomes
in transforming lives andbecause, at the end of the day,
that's just not why we give, butit's really truly why donors
give.
It's really interesting.
We did a study among P1listeners, so those that have a
(25:45):
preferred station, so that's aP1.
So they're the most engaged inlistening to Christian radio.
So we did this study on themand we asked a number of
questions, two of which were whydo you listen?
And the response was what's init for me, encourages me, it's
positive.
Then we asked the question whydo you of the donors, of the P1
(26:06):
donors, why do you support thestation?
And the top three answers weretotally related to the mission,
related to the mission gospelsingle, I mean.
So there had been an assumptionin the industry that because
listeners tune in for what's init.
For me, that's why they'regoing to give and it's not true.
They give permission and I seethat over and over and every
(26:30):
single donor study we've done isdonors are concerned about
outcomes and about mission, sowhat I'm looking for is what
organizations deliver on theirpromise and the outcomes that
are significant.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's such a shift in messaging from what we see to
your point, with what we see alot of folks putting out so
often the solicitations I get orthe organizations I support.
We're talking about the impactto me, right Partner with us and
it'll make you feel good to bea part of this, instead of
(27:06):
showcasing what they've actuallydone.
So to me, that's a hugetakeaway from our conversation
and the commission in general,the report in general, our
conversation and the commissionin general, the report in
general.
That is something that has tobe looked at as we come into
2025 is how are you actuallyshowcasing what your
organization has done this yearand how are you crafting your
(27:28):
messaging around that to movethe organization forward?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
It's about the story of those lives being transformed
.
Can you demonstrate thatclearly?
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, I think there are far too many nonprofits at
this point who would have areally hard time with that.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Yep, I agree.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Do you think that negatively then impacts the
moving the needle on generosity?
Has that been a negative impactfor it?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Absolutely, absolutely.
There's a couple of otherunderlying trends generally that
have affected generosity, wherethere's been too much of a
focus on high net worthindividuals and giving it that
higher level and as a result,it's pushed to the side that
lower donor, that broad-basedmass donor approach.
So it's got to be both and itcan't be either or yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So last question, as we wrap up what is your number
one on the list ofrecommendations that have come
out in this report?
What is the one that really, ifan organization has to start
somewhere, this is the one thatyou want the takeaway from it?
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Yeah, I think not necessarily coming out of the
report, because the report isreally dealing with macro issues
.
So if I'm really as anorganization, I'd probably
circle back around to what youwere just saying.
Even as you move into 2025, howwell are you actually telling
your story?
What resources are you puttinginto place to gather the stories
(28:59):
from people whose lives you'reimpacting and how well can you
actually tell that story?
Because, at the end of the day,that's what people are
ultimately going to support?
And then how do you showcasethat in your email and direct
mail, et cetera?
So, so and I, yeah, I I agreewith you is that most
organizations have not valuedthe gathering of the stories to
(29:22):
tell, to show donors what theirsupport is actually doing, and
that would, if I had onerecommendation, make that a
commitment in 25.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I love it.
So if somebody wants to dig inmore and read the generosity
commission report for themselves, or find out more about the
giving Institute and the workthat you all are doing, what's
the best way for them to connectwith all of that information?
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Uh giving instituteorg?
Um, definitely, if you go togiving instituteorg, you'll see
it there as well as uh givingUSAorg either one of those and
you should be able to find thereport there.
The subscription is prettycheap it's like $159 a year and
(30:05):
you get not only their annualreport but the special reports
on donor advised funds, legacygiving.
There's a lot of content therethat can be super helpful.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
That's great.
Well, rick, thank you so much.
We appreciate you and all ofyour work on the cause of
generosity, and thanks fortaking the time to be with us
today.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Thank you, Megan.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
My pleasure Again.
My guest has been Rick Dunham,who's the founder and chairman
of Dunham and Company.
Find out more at givingusaorg.
Thanks for joining us so much.
We'll see you next time on theNonprofit Hub Radio podcast.
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