Discover the secrets of sustainable giving with our guest Dave Raley! We tackle the significant shift in the nonprofit world towards a more structured approach to recurring donations, moving beyond the simplicity of a monthly giving button. Join us as we promise to enlighten you on how the subscription economy is reshaping donor expectations and why comprehensive sustainer programs are the future of nonprofit success.
Dave Raley is the founder of Imago Consulting, an advisory firm that helps organizations create growth through innovation. As a speaker and advisor, he has inspired thousands of nonprofit leaders to grow both personally and organizationally. He’s the author of The Rise of Sustainable Giving: How the Subscription Economy is Transforming Recurring Giving, and What Nonprofits Can Do to Benefit. Dave also writes a weekly innovation and leadership column called The Wave Report, and he’s the co-founder of the Purpose & Profit Podcast – a show about the ideas at the intersection of nonprofit causes and for-profit brands.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spier,joined today by my friend, dave
Raley, who you may know was onthe podcast last year as well,
excited to have him back withbig news.
We teased the last time youwere here, dave, that a book was
coming, and it is now reallycoming.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It is really coming.
It's really happening, likereally coming.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yes, dave Raley is the founder of Imago Consulting
and the author of the new bookthe Rise of Sustainable Giving.
So excited to have you back onthe podcast.
Welcome in friend.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So good to be back.
This has been a long timecoming.
You and I were talking aboutthis and you've written a book,
but, man, it's the best metaphorI can think of is it's a
marathon, right, you know, it'slike real fun at the beginning.
The middle part can be not sofun, but there is daylight at
the end of the marathon here.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, it's definitely a long time coming.
I remember you telling me thatyou were like toying with the
idea of writing a book.
We were in Dallas, I think, fora conference a year and a half
ago, two years ago now.
Yeah, definitely been a processin the works, but I'm excited
about the fact that it's alreadyhere.
I had a moment when I so when Iwrote my book a couple of years
(01:31):
ago, I had a moment, the daybefore it launched, which, for
you, was like just a couple ofdays from now coming, where I,
like I all of a sudden had thislike terror panic moment of like
, oh my gosh, it's real andsomeone might actually read this
book.
And I remember talking to afriend of mine and I, like I
shared that fear and he was likeI did I miss the point.
(01:53):
I thought the point was so thatpeople read it.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Oh, I so know what you mean, are you?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
there.
Are you like?
Where are we?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, you know, I had a moment the other day where
one of the early you sent outadvanced copies and folks that
are just generously have agreedto read the thing and, if they
like it, to endorse it.
Right, and I had a gentlemanwho's the just a significant
leader in a, in an organizationthat has just done incredible
things with sustainablerecurring giving.
Yeah and Megan, he called meand he was like this book is
(02:25):
awesome, like you've, you've hitevery major point.
And then he started making.
He started quoting like partsof the book back to me and I was
like, oh, does that like, isthat going to happen?
So I'm just so jazzed, soexcited and, candidly, this
industry needs to hear thismessage and so there's very much
a missional element to this andso to get it into the world, I
(02:50):
realized the metaphor for themarathon breaks down, or it's
like the finish line is thestarting line, right, kind of a
deal, but just so excited tohave it in the world and have
people be able to just beexposed to the message.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So help me understand and helpour audience understand, right,
when we talk about sustainablegiving I know this has been the
message that you've beenpreaching for years now and
building that sustainableprogram, let's kind of level set
(03:24):
from the jump.
Is that different than like?
Oh yeah, I have a monthlygiving button on my donation
page.
Is that when we're talkingabout sustainable giving?
What does that look like?
What is it and what is it not?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
oh, I love that question why I literally just
wrote an article called why yoursustainer Program Is Not
Growing, and the number onereason that I see in the
organizations that I bothresearch as well as the
organizations I work with, isthat they don't actually have a
field in a database.
(04:02):
They send a direct mail pieceevery January or whatever, right
, and they said, well, of coursewe have a monthly giving
program.
It's like you accept monthlygiving and you maybe feature it
sporadically, but you don't havea holistic program.
And I don't mean to say thatlike meanly or anything, but
really one of the things thatwe've seen with candidly the
(04:22):
subscription economy and howit's really rewired, the way
first consumers behave and thendonors think.
We talked about that on thelast episode, you and I did, but
that has resulted in acompletely different expectation
from donors, from nonprofits,and so sustainable giving or
recurring giving or sustainergiving or whatever subscription
(04:43):
giving whatever term you want touse.
The good news is that it's moreaccessible to more nonprofits
than ever before.
But that comes with a caveat,and that is you have to have a
holistic, valuable, ongoingsustainer program to really take
advantage of it.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Interesting.
So you did there, I think, hitthe nail on the head with all of
the different ways that peoplerefer to this thing, right?
So I've heard it talked aboutas sustainer giving,
subscription, ongoing, whateverthe there's all sorts of caveat.
Talk to me about the wordsubscription, though, because I
think that at least I've seensome articles to this effect
(05:25):
where people are like I just Ilike the idea, yeah, of
especially of sustainable givingor recurring giving, but the
subscription model for somereason puts some like put some
flags up for folks when it's so.
It's so prevalent in everythingthat we do.
How many subscriptions do Ihave at this point?
(05:46):
Right?
So I'm curious your thoughtsabout overcoming the stigma,
maybe, of that type of thinkingin nonprofits.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, well, fun fact, by the way you say how many
subscriptions you have.
The average American?
Well, first of all, 95.8%, andI know that sounds like a
made-up stat, but that's a realstat 95.8 percent of of us
adults have a subscription.
Wow, that's, that's likeeverybody, the average you want
to guess other random like threepoint.
(06:16):
Whatever I know I was like howdid you survive?
Do you want to guess that theaverage american number of
subscriptions I'm going to gowith 12.
This is awkward, megan, becausethe average American has 12
subscriptions.
Are you kidding me?
Nailed it right on the head,easy dozen.
By the way, some of us bring upthat average.
(06:38):
I think the funny thing is,today you have actually
subscriptions to monitor yoursubscriptions.
I don't know if you've seenRocket Money.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I have the Rocket Money.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
We've talked about it .
Yeah, so I got Rocket Money.
I was like, shoot, I'm writinga book on this.
I should probably see how manysubscriptions I have 125, I
think.
And by the way and this is forour charity leaders, listening,
your monthly giving shows up inRocket Money Just alongside your
Netflix subscription and yourAmazon prize subscription.
(07:07):
So that kind of implication oflike I'm quote unquote
subscribing to giving is evenshowing up on the consumer side,
and for a lot of nonprofitleaders, megan, that makes them
nervous because they're like, oh, that cancel buttons right next
to the right, exactly.
And it's right next to mybutton.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I can get out of that .
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I totally hear people , you know, and I have my own
feelings.
I think one of the things thatwe've seen in the subscription
economy like with any sort ofhype thing that happens is you
get a bunch of, basically,players that I wouldn't say
they're bad actors, but theyshow up in the market just
looking to grab money, yeah.
So they come up with a thing.
They call it a subscription,but really it has no ongoing
(07:45):
value proposition, it has nobelonging or community, it has
no really lasting value.
It's a cash grab, right.
And just like you could do thatin fundraising and that won't
last, you can do that on thebusiness side.
And so when I say subscriptiongiving, I'm referring to,
candidly, the better parts ofwhat we can learn from
subscription things like ongoingvalue, things like creating
(08:07):
belonging and community, thingslike having a really clear,
strong value proposition, right.
But what I don't mean is churnand burn, because, by the way,
the best subscriptions if youlook at the market, the best
subscription businesses realizethat the vast majority of the
value that they generate as asubscription is in long-term
(08:29):
relationship, which I don't knowabout you, but that sounds like
good fundraising to me.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yes, that subscription implies and I have
my own feelings about this.
I'm happy to share them butsubscription implies that I am
(08:54):
getting something.
Instead of building a model forgenerosity where I'm giving, I
would argue that we all have a.
The nonprofits all have a placewherein we do need to be
providing value At least, andit's not necessarily.
It's not like I'm sending you abook, I'm not Netflix producing
a new movie every month, but Iam showing you the value of what
(09:15):
your money is doing.
Right, and I would argue thatthere's some giving in that, but
do you think that there is inthe way that we talk about it?
Is that's where the strategythat you're talking about coming
in?
If we're moving to that model,we do have to.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Maybe think more about what the donor is getting
out of the transaction orgetting from the giving.
Yep, I think we always need tothink about that value
proposition.
Yeah, we always need to thinkabout that value proposition.
Now, I do want to be careful,and I actually have another
article on what I don't mean bysubscription giving, because I
do think it does invoke someconsumeristic tendencies.
For example, one of the areasthat recurring giving really
(09:59):
diverges from subscriptions isin the area of the volatility.
You know, if you look at thenumber of US adults who have
canceled the streamingsubscription, last year, 56% of
subscribers have canceled astreaming subscription.
Now I think the similar numbers50 to 60% have also added a
streaming subscription right.
So that's a wild.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That's normally me right, because I decide I'm only
going to have, when it comes tothe streaming, I'm only going
to have X number of things, andif I want to get, if I want to
add something because I'minterested in something that's
on that platform, then somethingelse has to go.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And that's why you're seeing so many of these
subscriptions going to bundles.
Oh, you want a Disney plus.
Now you get Hulu and it's likeare you going to cancel now and
then you also will see annual adiscount for an annual
subscription, because they justknow, man, that volatility
really stinks.
This is where it differs in theso far, in the nonprofit
(10:55):
fundraising spaces, donors arenot nearly as volatile.
They're not like, for the mostpart, looking at their giving to
you every month and saying am I, did I use that in the last two
months?
So there are some areas where Iwant to be careful not to
invoke that kind ofconsumeristic sort of attitude.
But what ongoing value are youproviding to donors, whether
(11:17):
it's tangible or intangible?
You mentioned books, by the way.
There are actually quite a fewcharities that actually do
create resources and that is apart of their ethos, their DNA.
Candidly, it's a part of theirprogram and mission is they have
one client right now that putsout multiple books a year and in
those cases I'm like amen,let's use the book as an
(11:38):
incentive for recurring givingand as a value add and as a
blessing to the audience.
But that doesn't mean yourrelief and development charity
needs to start now, publishingtchotchkes that you can mail to
people on every month.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, so one of the things that I think has been
kind of an overall arching themethat I've seen from a lot of
folks in the space lately isthis idea of growing generosity.
We want to encourage people ingenerosity because it's maybe
something that we see globallyas starting on the decline,
(12:13):
right.
So how do we change the tide?
How do we grow generosity?
Our friends at NextAfter talkabout it and Virtuous talks
about it.
There's so many vendors in thespace that are committed to this
idea of growing generosity andhelping to increase that amongst
people.
Is this a part of it and, if so, how do organizations go about
that?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
The generosity crisis is absolutely real and I, you
know, make it as a dad.
By the way, it breaks my heart.
I have an 11 year old and a 14year old, two girls, and I just
think about the world that I'mraising them in, the parenting
that I'm bringing to the tablefor lack of a better term, and
(12:57):
it's I don't know if there's anold man statement, megan, but
it's like, it's concerning, it'slike oh my gosh, like um, uh.
The reality is that the numberof individuals giving single
gifts in north america we'lljust keep it in the north
american context it has beendeclining.
The cost to acquire donors andto retain them is increasing.
(13:18):
By the way, on the consumerside, this is also the case like
getting a consumer to buyanother tube of your brand of
toothpaste and then to buy thesame one next time when they
have this explosion of choiceand consumer loyalty is at an
all-time low.
And I was thinking about thiswas early in the writing of the
(13:39):
book Megan, that, actually thebook the Generosity Crisis that
Nathan Chappell and hisco-authors wrote, and one that
really struck me just personally.
Professionally, I've spent now acouple of decades helping to
work in the philanthropic sector.
Like, oh my gosh, what is goingon?
And then I realized, megan,that a core part of discipling
(14:04):
people around generosity isongoing, recurring, faithful
giving.
And while there are fewerindividuals giving single gifts
than ever before and I thatbreaks my heart, too, and we
need to do something about thatthe reality is the number of
donors who are giving on arecurring basis is actually
(14:26):
growing, and so it's like okay,what can we learn from that and
how can we tap into that?
So I think there are a couplelike, if I think of what are the
solutions to the generositycrisis?
There are multiple.
It's not a single solution.
There's how we teach and trainyounger generations around what
(14:47):
generosity looks like,understanding how we can use
technologies like AI to createcommunities of giving, stuff
like that.
But, megan, the rise ofsustainable giving is one of the
most important, I think,answers to the generosity crisis
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Speaker 2 (15:48):
One of the things that you said up front right is
the idea that it's not justhaving the checkbox on your
website or maybe sending out oneemail a month or one email a
year, even a letter a year, thatsays, hey, we would love your
ongoing support, would youconsider?
(16:08):
So what is the switch inlanguage that our fundraising or
development teams need to startto embrace, to move in that
direction?
Like, how do we begin makingprogress in how we talk about
those things, even internally,versus and then moving it
(16:29):
externally to begin that process?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
That is the maybe it's not the million dollar
question.
Was the?
Who wants to be a millionaire?
That's the $100,000 question, Ithink.
Well, one of the things Ioutlined in the book is 10
different areas of developing athriving program.
So I'm just going to pick onone and that is.
It is so important.
What happens inevitably with anorganization is they do have the
(16:54):
checkbox or the gift type.
They don't necessarilyconsciously think, well, that
doesn't mean we don't have arecurring giving program, but
the reality is they don't reallyhave a recurring giving program
.
They might have a cool name too, by the way it's the monthly
partners program or whatever.
By the way, I'm not knockingthe name of your program, if
that's what you call it, but oneof the things I've seen
(17:15):
internally is that the structureand team responsibility about
recurring giving is one of thebiggest barriers to
understanding this.
So it goes like this Well, Iasked the question and when I do
audits and assessments andgrowth maps for clients, I ask
okay, who's responsible forrecurring giving?
And Megan, I would say more thanhalf the time the answer is
(17:38):
well, some version of we're allresponsible for recurring giving
or.
Well, we have the direct mailteam and they do this and we
have the digital team and theydo that Right.
Or we have a entry level personwho's been on the job for six
months and we assign them torecurring giving.
All of those answers are partof the problem.
(17:59):
We assign them to recurringgiving.
All of those answers are partof the problem.
And the reality is, if recurringgiving is not a priority, then
it's not going to getresponsibility.
But if everybody's responsiblefor recurring giving, then
nobody's responsible forrecurring giving.
Yeah, and so it's just becomesthis nagging frustration on the
part of nonprofit leaders, ofexecutive directors, presidents,
(18:21):
VPs of development oh man, whyisn't our monthly giving program
?
And there are a lot of reasonswhy your monthly giving program
might not work, but one of thoseis just the lack of internal
ownership and clarity andsomebody who both has the
responsibility for recurringgiving but also then the
authority and accountability tothat.
(18:42):
So it's one thing to be likeJoe is responsible for recurring
giving.
It's like it's another thing toactually empower Joe with the
budget, resources, manpower,coaching, whatever Joe needs to
succeed, or then theaccountability that that joe or
(19:03):
jill is responsible for this andactually has goals and targets
and we measure them and thatkind of a thing.
So that's just one.
I don't want to make it soundlike it's only that, but that is
one of the key things, thatthat is a pivot that tends to be
huge and helping move intoactually creating a holistic
program, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's interesting.
So let's say, jill isresponsible for that recurring
giving program.
Right, she's been tasked, we'vetaken the step, we've made
somebody responsible for itresponsible for it.
Are there metrics around whatis reasonable for the
expectations of that role?
By which I mean if you, forsake of round numbers, if you
(19:52):
have 10,000 donors in your file,or a hundred thousand donors in
your file, or whatever the casemay be, is there?
Are there metrics out?
Yet have we started to look,look at like it would be
reasonable or the a good goalwould be x percent of the?
donor file revenue yeah, how dowe start to track?
And you know, if we're going tomake somebody responsible for
it, then how do we make surethat they're doing the job like?
(20:15):
What does success look like?
Or how do we measure that atthis point?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
yeah, a couple thoughts.
I think number one is tounderstand where you are today
in terms of your metrics, and sothere's a couple of numbers.
I go through 12 core metrics inthe book, but just a couple.
Number one how many and howmuch?
So like, how many recurringdonors do you have and how much
are they giving on an annualizedbasis?
So basically, in subscriptionparlance, what's your monthly
(20:40):
recurring revenue, your MRR oryour ARR, which is another, by
the way, lesson we can learnfrom the subscription businesses
?
They live and die by a couplekey metrics, including MRR and
ARR, monthly recurring revenueand annual recurring revenue.
As an aside, one of the othermetrics they live and die by is
churn, which how many of thosemonthly donors are dropping and
(21:05):
how much revenue is dropping onany given month.
Nonprofit industry does not usechurn, but I think it should.
But back to your originalquestion.
So you need to understand whereyou are.
And then there's no hard andfast rule on when you should
assign somebody.
I would argue you should alwaysassign somebody to recurring
giving.
The question is whether or notit's their only job or part of
their responsibilities.
Sometimes I have a client rightnow that has 99 recurring
(21:29):
donors.
The executive director iseffectively in charge of
recurring giving and that's fineand that's appropriate and
honestly that's, I think, reallysmart, because it's not just a
resourcing challenge, but itmeans the executive director is
actually in their have somebodyresponsible for recurring giving
, but it's not even thatperson's fault.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Multiple somebodies at that point I would hope.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It is.
But even in that case, in thatparticular instance, it's not
their full-time job Now.
I would argue it should be moreof their current job, but the
bottom line is they havesomebody that's responsible,
accountable and has agency interms.
There is a something aboutorganizations that put an
(22:27):
inordinate amount of Fresponsibility like they invest
essentially ahead of growth, tosay this is important to us, and
so I write some stories aboutsome organizations that our
listeners will have certainlyheard of World Vision, charity
Water, to name two, thatarguably have had a very
lopsided, almost myopic focus onrecurring giving but that has
(22:49):
ultimately completely baredfruit.
To the tune of one of thoseorganizations is more than a
billion dollars, right, and soI'd take some, some lopsided
focus there, but they investedahead of growth.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, it did not and maybe it should have, but it did
not occur to me.
And it did not and maybe itshould have, but it did not
occur to me, as we've had thisconversation about sustainable
giving and subscription modelfor how long now?
It never occurred to me tothink about world like.
(23:30):
I have had the same worldvision child on my refrigerator
for the last eight years and itnever occurred to me to think
about the fact that that's whatthat model is.
So I'm feeling a little foolishfor not being like it's
interesting.
I've never thought about it inthose terms, even though I've
been participating in it.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, well, and you start to do that math.
Yeah, you know, eight yearstimes 40 bucks a year times 12.
I'm at 13 years, by the way,with our oldest, because we,
with each of our children, wesponsored a child.
That's like $6,000.
Yeah, like, I'm basically amid-level or major donor,
depending on your definition, tothose organizations.
(24:07):
Well, I wouldn't give a $6,000check Exactly, but, sure enough,
donors become that value.
And, by the way, this is back tothe lessons we can learn from
the subscription economy.
Subscription businesses knowthey own, they live and die on
what is happening with theretention of their subscribers,
(24:27):
so they can't just trick youinto this is the bad rap that
some subscription businesseshave caused is they try to trick
you into a subscription andthen, okay, maybe you stay for
60 days or 90 days because theymake it really hard to get out,
which, as an aside, there islegislation right now about
actually making that easier.
But the reality is thebusinesses that succeed and
(24:49):
actually create positive cashflow and revenue and grow and
accomplish their mission.
They realize that the vastmajority of the value for their
customers comes from keepingthem.
The average donor, monthlyrecurring donor to an
organization 97% of the value ofthat donor is in after the
(25:13):
first gift.
So if you thought about it thatway, if 97% of the value of
this donor, of this World VisionChild Sponsor, is post-first
gift, how does that make youthink differently about how you
treat them, how you cultivatethem, how you onboard them, how
you upgrade them?
And, candidly, I had a clientthe other day that got.
(25:33):
They did their very firsteffort at like an open house and
offered people the opportunityto become recurring donors.
We worked on the messaging andeverything.
They had a handful of donorssign up and they were like.
There was almost this questionof like.
Is that good?
Like, should it be a bigquantity number?
(25:54):
And I'm like well, number one.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
this is the first time you've ever talked about
this, and he is good.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
And two was that an event that was not a fundraising
event, so, but thatorganization in that day, in
that one day event, ended upraising $10,000 in long-term
value from their donors.
And so when they realized thatmaybe the quantity of donors was
not huge, but they had justbasically, in one day, generated
$10,000 of value, they werelike, oh okay, again, 97% of the
(26:22):
value of your recurring donorscomes in after the first gift.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Interesting.
This is all so good.
Okay, so we are just days awayfrom the book being available.
So close.
We could tell people topre-order, but at this point you
may as well just order, Right?
But what's?
Where do we go to find moreinformation about the book?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah, so the book is the Rise of Sustainable Giving,
and so the URL is justsustainablegivingorg and that'll
get you to the landing page.
I actually didn't mention itbefore, but we've got a couple
of resources for folks that theycan grab.
One is a blueprint to growing athriving sustainer program.
So it's take some of theelements of the book and
condenses that down into an easyseven-step guide.
(27:06):
Well, I should say simpleseven-step guide.
Yes, if only it was easy, right, but that's one.
And then we also have asustainable giving assessment
for people to do, a sort of aself-guided assessment of how
they're doing, where they needto focus, and that kind of stuff
.
So my goal is to help the wholephilanthropic sector move
(27:27):
forward, and so this message issuper important, but-.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's just a tiny goal .
No, it's nothing major.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Just a little thing, easy, but the message is
important.
But also I'm so motivated tohelp nonprofit leaders actually
do something about it.
You know that's what they calljunk learning.
I don't know if you've heard ofthis term where it's like, oh
yeah, now I know a thing.
It's like, oh yeah, now I knowa thing.
It's like what's the?
Is the abc or nbc, the more youknow you know it's like no,
let's do something with that.
Let's do yes and that's what thethat's candidly what the book's
(27:55):
about okay, perfect, so theycan order straight from your
website yep amazon you can orderdirect.
But but the traditional placesare also available which is fine
by me.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That's so great.
Congratulations.
I'm so excited for you that theday is finally here, thank you.
It's been a long time coming,and I think this is going to
have a huge impact on the sectorand on nonprofit leaders across
the board.
So I am excited for you, afriend.
I can't wait for everybody todig into this.
Final thoughts before we go.
One one tiny last question, nowthat you have done it you've
(28:31):
written the book, you've got it,it's going would you do another
one?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Ooh, yes, I there was .
Back to the marathon metaphor.
I ran one marathon in my lifeand the journey was basically
first couple of miles this isincredible.
Middle part this is fine.
First couple of miles this isincredible Middle part.
This is fine, Uh mile 21 waslike I am never doing this again
.
What is this about?
And thankfully I'm on the otherside of that, so I'm on the like
(28:55):
that last stretch when you'relike all the people are cheering
and you're almost like this isactually pretty cool, so I don't
know how quickly another onewould happen and, candidly, I'm
still on, as I believe everyauthor should say, like I am
still in a learning mode, likeI'm still learning things.
That was one of the things thatfreaked me out about writing a
(29:16):
book in the first place is likewhat if I learn things that
change what I think after Iwrite the book and it turns out
that's like how life is.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yes, or at least how it should be.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
You don't want to stay stuck how life is, and at
least how it should be.
You don't want to stay stuck,but I am confident the
principles in the book are muchmore timeless and timely, but
yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Excellent.
Well, I can't wait foreverybody to dig into it.
Dave, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Glad to have you on here,excited for the next chapter of
your journey here as the bookcomes out.
Again, my guest has been DaveRaley, who's the founder of
Imago Consulting and the newauthor of the Rise of
Sustainable Giving.
Check it out, go ahead andorder yours today.
(29:57):
We can't wait to read it.
Thanks for joining me.
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Speaker 2 (00:17):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub podcast.
I'm your host, megan Spier,joined today by my friend, dave
Raley, who you may know was onthe podcast last year as well,
excited to have him back withbig news.
We teased the last time youwere here, dave, that a book was
coming, and it is now reallycoming.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
It is really coming.
It's really happening, likereally coming.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yes, dave Raley is the founder of Imago Consulting
and the author of the new bookthe Rise of Sustainable Giving.
So excited to have you back onthe podcast.
Welcome in friend.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
So good to be back.
This has been a long timecoming.
You and I were talking aboutthis and you've written a book,
but, man, it's the best metaphorI can think of is it's a
marathon, right, you know, it'slike real fun at the beginning.
The middle part can be not sofun, but there is daylight at
the end of the marathon here.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Well, it's definitely a long time coming.
I remember you telling me thatyou were like toying with the
idea of writing a book.
We were in Dallas, I think, fora conference a year and a half
ago, two years ago now.
Yeah, definitely been a processin the works, but I'm excited
about the fact that it's alreadyhere.
I had a moment when I so when Iwrote my book a couple of years
(01:31):
ago, I had a moment, the daybefore it launched, which, for
you, was like just a couple ofdays from now coming, where I,
like I all of a sudden had thislike terror panic moment of like
, oh my gosh, it's real andsomeone might actually read this
book.
And I remember talking to afriend of mine and I, like I
shared that fear and he was likeI did I miss the point.
(01:53):
I thought the point was so thatpeople read it.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Oh, I so know what you mean, are you?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
there.
Are you like?
Where are we?
How are you feeling?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Yeah, you know, I had a moment the other day where
one of the early you sent outadvanced copies and folks that
are just generously have agreedto read the thing and, if they
like it, to endorse it.
Right, and I had a gentlemanwho's the just a significant
leader in a, in an organizationthat has just done incredible
things with sustainablerecurring giving.
Yeah and Megan, he called meand he was like this book is
(02:25):
awesome, like you've, you've hitevery major point.
And then he started making.
He started quoting like partsof the book back to me and I was
like, oh, does that like, isthat going to happen?
So I'm just so jazzed, soexcited and, candidly, this
industry needs to hear thismessage and so there's very much
a missional element to this andso to get it into the world, I
(02:50):
realized the metaphor for themarathon breaks down, or it's
like the finish line is thestarting line, right, kind of a
deal, but just so excited tohave it in the world and have
people be able to just beexposed to the message.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, that's awesome.
So help me understand and helpour audience understand, right,
when we talk about sustainablegiving I know this has been the
message that you've beenpreaching for years now and
building that sustainableprogram, let's kind of level set
(03:24):
from the jump.
Is that different than like?
Oh yeah, I have a monthlygiving button on my donation
page.
Is that when we're talkingabout sustainable giving?
What does that look like?
What is it and what is it not?
Speaker 3 (03:39):
oh, I love that question why I literally just
wrote an article called why yoursustainer Program Is Not
Growing, and the number onereason that I see in the
organizations that I bothresearch as well as the
organizations I work with, isthat they don't actually have a
field in a database.
(04:02):
They send a direct mail pieceevery January or whatever, right
, and they said, well, of coursewe have a monthly giving
program.
It's like you accept monthlygiving and you maybe feature it
sporadically, but you don't havea holistic program.
And I don't mean to say thatlike meanly or anything, but
really one of the things thatwe've seen with candidly the
(04:22):
subscription economy and howit's really rewired, the way
first consumers behave and thendonors think.
We talked about that on thelast episode, you and I did, but
that has resulted in acompletely different expectation
from donors, from nonprofits,and so sustainable giving or
recurring giving or sustainergiving or whatever subscription
(04:43):
giving whatever term you want touse.
The good news is that it's moreaccessible to more nonprofits
than ever before.
But that comes with a caveat,and that is you have to have a
holistic, valuable, ongoingsustainer program to really take
advantage of it.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Interesting.
So you did there, I think, hitthe nail on the head with all of
the different ways that peoplerefer to this thing, right?
So I've heard it talked aboutas sustainer giving,
subscription, ongoing, whateverthe there's all sorts of caveat.
Talk to me about the wordsubscription, though, because I
think that at least I've seensome articles to this effect
(05:25):
where people are like I just Ilike the idea, yeah, of
especially of sustainable givingor recurring giving, but the
subscription model for somereason puts some like put some
flags up for folks when it's so.
It's so prevalent in everythingthat we do.
How many subscriptions do Ihave at this point?
(05:46):
Right?
So I'm curious your thoughtsabout overcoming the stigma,
maybe, of that type of thinkingin nonprofits.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Yeah, well, fun fact, by the way you say how many
subscriptions you have.
The average American?
Well, first of all, 95.8%, andI know that sounds like a
made-up stat, but that's a realstat 95.8 percent of of us
adults have a subscription.
Wow, that's, that's likeeverybody, the average you want
to guess other random like threepoint.
(06:16):
Whatever I know I was like howdid you survive?
Do you want to guess that theaverage american number of
subscriptions I'm going to gowith 12.
This is awkward, megan, becausethe average American has 12
subscriptions.
Are you kidding me?
Nailed it right on the head,easy dozen.
By the way, some of us bring upthat average.
(06:38):
I think the funny thing is,today you have actually
subscriptions to monitor yoursubscriptions.
I don't know if you've seenRocket Money.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I have the Rocket Money.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
We've talked about it .
Yeah, so I got Rocket Money.
I was like, shoot, I'm writinga book on this.
I should probably see how manysubscriptions I have 125, I
think.
And by the way and this is forour charity leaders, listening,
your monthly giving shows up inRocket Money Just alongside your
Netflix subscription and yourAmazon prize subscription.
(07:07):
So that kind of implication oflike I'm quote unquote
subscribing to giving is evenshowing up on the consumer side,
and for a lot of nonprofitleaders, megan, that makes them
nervous because they're like, oh, that cancel buttons right next
to the right, exactly.
And it's right next to mybutton.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
I can get out of that .
Speaker 3 (07:24):
I totally hear people , you know, and I have my own
feelings.
I think one of the things thatwe've seen in the subscription
economy like with any sort ofhype thing that happens is you
get a bunch of, basically,players that I wouldn't say
they're bad actors, but theyshow up in the market just
looking to grab money, yeah.
So they come up with a thing.
They call it a subscription,but really it has no ongoing
(07:45):
value proposition, it has nobelonging or community, it has
no really lasting value.
It's a cash grab, right.
And just like you could do thatin fundraising and that won't
last, you can do that on thebusiness side.
And so when I say subscriptiongiving, I'm referring to,
candidly, the better parts ofwhat we can learn from
subscription things like ongoingvalue, things like creating
(08:07):
belonging and community, thingslike having a really clear,
strong value proposition, right.
But what I don't mean is churnand burn, because, by the way,
the best subscriptions if youlook at the market, the best
subscription businesses realizethat the vast majority of the
value that they generate as asubscription is in long-term
(08:29):
relationship, which I don't knowabout you, but that sounds like
good fundraising to me.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yes, that subscription implies and I have
my own feelings about this.
I'm happy to share them butsubscription implies that I am
(08:54):
getting something.
Instead of building a model forgenerosity where I'm giving, I
would argue that we all have a.
The nonprofits all have a placewherein we do need to be
providing value At least, andit's not necessarily.
It's not like I'm sending you abook, I'm not Netflix producing
a new movie every month, but Iam showing you the value of what
(09:15):
your money is doing.
Right, and I would argue thatthere's some giving in that, but
do you think that there is inthe way that we talk about it?
Is that's where the strategythat you're talking about coming
in?
If we're moving to that model,we do have to.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Maybe think more about what the donor is getting
out of the transaction orgetting from the giving.
Yep, I think we always need tothink about that value
proposition.
Yeah, we always need to thinkabout that value proposition.
Now, I do want to be careful,and I actually have another
article on what I don't mean bysubscription giving, because I
do think it does invoke someconsumeristic tendencies.
For example, one of the areasthat recurring giving really
(09:59):
diverges from subscriptions isin the area of the volatility.
You know, if you look at thenumber of US adults who have
canceled the streamingsubscription, last year, 56% of
subscribers have canceled astreaming subscription.
Now I think the similar numbers50 to 60% have also added a
streaming subscription right.
So that's a wild.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That's normally me right, because I decide I'm only
going to have, when it comes tothe streaming, I'm only going
to have X number of things, andif I want to get, if I want to
add something because I'minterested in something that's
on that platform, then somethingelse has to go.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
And that's why you're seeing so many of these
subscriptions going to bundles.
Oh, you want a Disney plus.
Now you get Hulu and it's likeare you going to cancel now and
then you also will see annual adiscount for an annual
subscription, because they justknow, man, that volatility
really stinks.
This is where it differs in theso far, in the nonprofit
(10:55):
fundraising spaces, donors arenot nearly as volatile.
They're not like, for the mostpart, looking at their giving to
you every month and saying am I, did I use that in the last two
months?
So there are some areas where Iwant to be careful not to
invoke that kind ofconsumeristic sort of attitude.
But what ongoing value are youproviding to donors, whether
(11:17):
it's tangible or intangible?
You mentioned books, by the way.
There are actually quite a fewcharities that actually do
create resources and that is apart of their ethos, their DNA.
Candidly, it's a part of theirprogram and mission is they have
one client right now that putsout multiple books a year and in
those cases I'm like amen,let's use the book as an
(11:38):
incentive for recurring givingand as a value add and as a
blessing to the audience.
But that doesn't mean yourrelief and development charity
needs to start now, publishingtchotchkes that you can mail to
people on every month.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, so one of the things that I think has been
kind of an overall arching themethat I've seen from a lot of
folks in the space lately isthis idea of growing generosity.
We want to encourage people ingenerosity because it's maybe
something that we see globallyas starting on the decline,
(12:13):
right.
So how do we change the tide?
How do we grow generosity?
Our friends at NextAfter talkabout it and Virtuous talks
about it.
There's so many vendors in thespace that are committed to this
idea of growing generosity andhelping to increase that amongst
people.
Is this a part of it and, if so, how do organizations go about
that?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
The generosity crisis is absolutely real and I, you
know, make it as a dad.
By the way, it breaks my heart.
I have an 11 year old and a 14year old, two girls, and I just
think about the world that I'mraising them in, the parenting
that I'm bringing to the tablefor lack of a better term, and
(12:57):
it's I don't know if there's anold man statement, megan, but
it's like, it's concerning, it'slike oh my gosh, like um, uh.
The reality is that the numberof individuals giving single
gifts in north america we'lljust keep it in the north
american context it has beendeclining.
The cost to acquire donors andto retain them is increasing.
(13:18):
By the way, on the consumerside, this is also the case like
getting a consumer to buyanother tube of your brand of
toothpaste and then to buy thesame one next time when they
have this explosion of choiceand consumer loyalty is at an
all-time low.
And I was thinking about thiswas early in the writing of the
(13:39):
book Megan, that, actually thebook the Generosity Crisis that
Nathan Chappell and hisco-authors wrote, and one that
really struck me just personally.
Professionally, I've spent now acouple of decades helping to
work in the philanthropic sector.
Like, oh my gosh, what is goingon?
And then I realized, megan,that a core part of discipling
(14:04):
people around generosity isongoing, recurring, faithful
giving.
And while there are fewerindividuals giving single gifts
than ever before and I thatbreaks my heart, too, and we
need to do something about thatthe reality is the number of
donors who are giving on arecurring basis is actually
(14:26):
growing, and so it's like okay,what can we learn from that and
how can we tap into that?
So I think there are a couplelike, if I think of what are the
solutions to the generositycrisis?
There are multiple.
It's not a single solution.
There's how we teach and trainyounger generations around what
(14:47):
generosity looks like,understanding how we can use
technologies like AI to createcommunities of giving, stuff
like that.
But, megan, the rise ofsustainable giving is one of the
most important, I think,answers to the generosity crisis
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Speaker 2 (15:48):
One of the things that you said up front right is
the idea that it's not justhaving the checkbox on your
website or maybe sending out oneemail a month or one email a
year, even a letter a year, thatsays, hey, we would love your
ongoing support, would youconsider?
(16:08):
So what is the switch inlanguage that our fundraising or
development teams need to startto embrace, to move in that
direction?
Like, how do we begin makingprogress in how we talk about
those things, even internally,versus and then moving it
(16:29):
externally to begin that process?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
That is the maybe it's not the million dollar
question.
Was the?
Who wants to be a millionaire?
That's the $100,000 question, Ithink.
Well, one of the things Ioutlined in the book is 10
different areas of developing athriving program.
So I'm just going to pick onone and that is.
It is so important.
What happens inevitably with anorganization is they do have the
(16:54):
checkbox or the gift type.
They don't necessarilyconsciously think, well, that
doesn't mean we don't have arecurring giving program, but
the reality is they don't reallyhave a recurring giving program
.
They might have a cool name too, by the way it's the monthly
partners program or whatever.
By the way, I'm not knockingthe name of your program, if
that's what you call it, but oneof the things I've seen
(17:15):
internally is that the structureand team responsibility about
recurring giving is one of thebiggest barriers to
understanding this.
So it goes like this Well, Iasked the question and when I do
audits and assessments andgrowth maps for clients, I ask
okay, who's responsible forrecurring giving?
And Megan, I would say more thanhalf the time the answer is
(17:38):
well, some version of we're allresponsible for recurring giving
or.
Well, we have the direct mailteam and they do this and we
have the digital team and theydo that Right.
Or we have a entry level personwho's been on the job for six
months and we assign them torecurring giving.
All of those answers are partof the problem.
(17:59):
We assign them to recurringgiving.
All of those answers are partof the problem.
And the reality is, if recurringgiving is not a priority, then
it's not going to getresponsibility.
But if everybody's responsiblefor recurring giving, then
nobody's responsible forrecurring giving.
Yeah, and so it's just becomesthis nagging frustration on the
part of nonprofit leaders, ofexecutive directors, presidents,
(18:21):
VPs of development oh man, whyisn't our monthly giving program
?
And there are a lot of reasonswhy your monthly giving program
might not work, but one of thoseis just the lack of internal
ownership and clarity andsomebody who both has the
responsibility for recurringgiving but also then the
authority and accountability tothat.
(18:42):
So it's one thing to be likeJoe is responsible for recurring
giving.
It's like it's another thing toactually empower Joe with the
budget, resources, manpower,coaching, whatever Joe needs to
succeed, or then theaccountability that that joe or
(19:03):
jill is responsible for this andactually has goals and targets
and we measure them and thatkind of a thing.
So that's just one.
I don't want to make it soundlike it's only that, but that is
one of the key things, thatthat is a pivot that tends to be
huge and helping move intoactually creating a holistic
program, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
That's interesting.
So let's say, jill isresponsible for that recurring
giving program.
Right, she's been tasked, we'vetaken the step, we've made
somebody responsible for itresponsible for it.
Are there metrics around whatis reasonable for the
expectations of that role?
By which I mean if you, forsake of round numbers, if you
(19:52):
have 10,000 donors in your file,or a hundred thousand donors in
your file, or whatever the casemay be, is there?
Are there metrics out?
Yet have we started to look,look at like it would be
reasonable or the a good goalwould be x percent of the?
donor file revenue yeah, how dowe start to track?
And you know, if we're going tomake somebody responsible for
it, then how do we make surethat they're doing the job like?
(20:15):
What does success look like?
Or how do we measure that atthis point?
Speaker 3 (20:19):
yeah, a couple thoughts.
I think number one is tounderstand where you are today
in terms of your metrics, and sothere's a couple of numbers.
I go through 12 core metrics inthe book, but just a couple.
Number one how many and howmuch?
So like, how many recurringdonors do you have and how much
are they giving on an annualizedbasis?
So basically, in subscriptionparlance, what's your monthly
(20:40):
recurring revenue, your MRR oryour ARR, which is another, by
the way, lesson we can learnfrom the subscription businesses
?
They live and die by a couplekey metrics, including MRR and
ARR, monthly recurring revenueand annual recurring revenue.
As an aside, one of the othermetrics they live and die by is
churn, which how many of thosemonthly donors are dropping and
(21:05):
how much revenue is dropping onany given month.
Nonprofit industry does not usechurn, but I think it should.
But back to your originalquestion.
So you need to understand whereyou are.
And then there's no hard andfast rule on when you should
assign somebody.
I would argue you should alwaysassign somebody to recurring
giving.
The question is whether or notit's their only job or part of
their responsibilities.
Sometimes I have a client rightnow that has 99 recurring
(21:29):
donors.
The executive director iseffectively in charge of
recurring giving and that's fineand that's appropriate and
honestly that's, I think, reallysmart, because it's not just a
resourcing challenge, but itmeans the executive director is
actually in their have somebodyresponsible for recurring giving
, but it's not even thatperson's fault.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Multiple somebodies at that point I would hope.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
It is.
But even in that case, in thatparticular instance, it's not
their full-time job Now.
I would argue it should be moreof their current job, but the
bottom line is they havesomebody that's responsible,
accountable and has agency interms.
There is a something aboutorganizations that put an
(22:27):
inordinate amount of Fresponsibility like they invest
essentially ahead of growth, tosay this is important to us, and
so I write some stories aboutsome organizations that our
listeners will have certainlyheard of World Vision, charity
Water, to name two, thatarguably have had a very
lopsided, almost myopic focus onrecurring giving but that has
(22:49):
ultimately completely baredfruit.
To the tune of one of thoseorganizations is more than a
billion dollars, right, and soI'd take some, some lopsided
focus there, but they investedahead of growth.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, it did not and maybe it should have, but it did
not occur to me.
And it did not and maybe itshould have, but it did not
occur to me, as we've had thisconversation about sustainable
giving and subscription modelfor how long now?
It never occurred to me tothink about world like.
(23:30):
I have had the same worldvision child on my refrigerator
for the last eight years and itnever occurred to me to think
about the fact that that's whatthat model is.
So I'm feeling a little foolishfor not being like it's
interesting.
I've never thought about it inthose terms, even though I've
been participating in it.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, well, and you start to do that math.
Yeah, you know, eight yearstimes 40 bucks a year times 12.
I'm at 13 years, by the way,with our oldest, because we,
with each of our children, wesponsored a child.
That's like $6,000.
Yeah, like, I'm basically amid-level or major donor,
depending on your definition, tothose organizations.
(24:07):
Well, I wouldn't give a $6,000check Exactly, but, sure enough,
donors become that value.
And, by the way, this is back tothe lessons we can learn from
the subscription economy.
Subscription businesses knowthey own, they live and die on
what is happening with theretention of their subscribers,
(24:27):
so they can't just trick youinto this is the bad rap that
some subscription businesseshave caused is they try to trick
you into a subscription andthen, okay, maybe you stay for
60 days or 90 days because theymake it really hard to get out,
which, as an aside, there islegislation right now about
actually making that easier.
But the reality is thebusinesses that succeed and
(24:49):
actually create positive cashflow and revenue and grow and
accomplish their mission.
They realize that the vastmajority of the value for their
customers comes from keepingthem.
The average donor, monthlyrecurring donor to an
organization 97% of the value ofthat donor is in after the
(25:13):
first gift.
So if you thought about it thatway, if 97% of the value of
this donor, of this World VisionChild Sponsor, is post-first
gift, how does that make youthink differently about how you
treat them, how you cultivatethem, how you onboard them, how
you upgrade them?
And, candidly, I had a clientthe other day that got.
(25:33):
They did their very firsteffort at like an open house and
offered people the opportunityto become recurring donors.
We worked on the messaging andeverything.
They had a handful of donorssign up and they were like.
There was almost this questionof like.
Is that good?
Like, should it be a bigquantity number?
(25:54):
And I'm like well, number one.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
this is the first time you've ever talked about
this, and he is good.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
And two was that an event that was not a fundraising
event, so, but thatorganization in that day, in
that one day event, ended upraising $10,000 in long-term
value from their donors.
And so when they realized thatmaybe the quantity of donors was
not huge, but they had justbasically, in one day, generated
$10,000 of value, they werelike, oh okay, again, 97% of the
(26:22):
value of your recurring donorscomes in after the first gift.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Interesting.
This is all so good.
Okay, so we are just days awayfrom the book being available.
So close.
We could tell people topre-order, but at this point you
may as well just order, Right?
But what's?
Where do we go to find moreinformation about the book?
Speaker 3 (26:45):
Yeah, so the book is the Rise of Sustainable Giving,
and so the URL is justsustainablegivingorg and that'll
get you to the landing page.
I actually didn't mention itbefore, but we've got a couple
of resources for folks that theycan grab.
One is a blueprint to growing athriving sustainer program.
So it's take some of theelements of the book and
condenses that down into an easyseven-step guide.
(27:06):
Well, I should say simpleseven-step guide.
Yes, if only it was easy, right, but that's one.
And then we also have asustainable giving assessment
for people to do, a sort of aself-guided assessment of how
they're doing, where they needto focus, and that kind of stuff
.
So my goal is to help the wholephilanthropic sector move
(27:27):
forward, and so this message issuper important, but-.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
It's just a tiny goal .
No, it's nothing major.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Just a little thing, easy, but the message is
important.
But also I'm so motivated tohelp nonprofit leaders actually
do something about it.
You know that's what they calljunk learning.
I don't know if you've heard ofthis term where it's like, oh
yeah, now I know a thing.
It's like, oh yeah, now I knowa thing.
It's like what's the?
Is the abc or nbc, the more youknow you know it's like no,
let's do something with that.
Let's do yes and that's what thethat's candidly what the book's
(27:55):
about okay, perfect, so theycan order straight from your
website yep amazon you can orderdirect.
But but the traditional placesare also available which is fine
by me.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
That's so great.
Congratulations.
I'm so excited for you that theday is finally here, thank you.
It's been a long time coming,and I think this is going to
have a huge impact on the sectorand on nonprofit leaders across
the board.
So I am excited for you, afriend.
I can't wait for everybody todig into this.
Final thoughts before we go.
One one tiny last question, nowthat you have done it you've
(28:31):
written the book, you've got it,it's going would you do another
one?
Speaker 3 (28:35):
Ooh, yes, I there was .
Back to the marathon metaphor.
I ran one marathon in my lifeand the journey was basically
first couple of miles this isincredible.
Middle part this is fine.
First couple of miles this isincredible Middle part.
This is fine, Uh mile 21 waslike I am never doing this again
.
What is this about?
And thankfully I'm on the otherside of that, so I'm on the like
(28:55):
that last stretch when you'relike all the people are cheering
and you're almost like this isactually pretty cool, so I don't
know how quickly another onewould happen and, candidly, I'm
still on, as I believe everyauthor should say, like I am
still in a learning mode, likeI'm still learning things.
That was one of the things thatfreaked me out about writing a
(29:16):
book in the first place is likewhat if I learn things that
change what I think after Iwrite the book and it turns out
that's like how life is.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yes, or at least how it should be.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
You don't want to stay stuck how life is, and at
least how it should be.
You don't want to stay stuck,but I am confident the
principles in the book are muchmore timeless and timely, but
yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Excellent.
Well, I can't wait foreverybody to dig into it.
Dave, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Glad to have you on here,excited for the next chapter of
your journey here as the bookcomes out.
Again, my guest has been DaveRaley, who's the founder of
Imago Consulting and the newauthor of the Rise of
Sustainable Giving.
Check it out, go ahead andorder yours today.
(29:57):
We can't wait to read it.
Thanks for joining me.
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