April 18, 2025 • 28 mins
Your nonprofit website isn't just digital real estate—it's the center of your marketing universe and your organization's 24/7 representative. But as Jay Owen, CEO of Business Builders, reveals in this eye-opening conversation, most organizations waste precious time and resources on ineffective digital strategies while missing fundamental opportunities to connect with donors and drive meaningful action. "Design builds trust, but words are what sell," Owen explains, challenging the common practice of prioritizing aesthetics over clear messaging. This insight leads to a practical approach where nonprofits should first perfect their story before worrying about visual elements. The most effective nonprofit websites speak directly to their primary audience (usually donors) while avoiding the "design by committee" trap that creates cluttered, confusing user experiences with too many competing calls to action. Whether you're planning a website overhaul or simply looking to improve your digital presence, this conversation offers practical wisdom that will transform how you think about your nonprofit's online home. Connect with Jay Owen on LinkedIn or visit storybrandcourse.com for a free 5-part course on improving your messaging fundamentals.
Get free nonprofit professional development resources, connections to cause work peers, and more at https://nonprofithub.org
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Marketing Support Network is proud to serve the
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Your vision is our mission andwe can't wait to partner with
you.
Visitmarketingsupportnetworkcom for
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Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear, andjoining me today is Jay Owen,
who is the CEO of BusinessBuilders.
We're going to be talking allthings website and data and
nonprofit marketing on the web.
I'm very excited to dig intoall of the conversations.
Jay, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hey, megan, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, my pleasure, glad to have you here.
So tell the audience a littlebit about yourself as an
introduction.
How did you find yourself inthis space of serving the
nonprofit community?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, I get to help all kinds of different
organizations grow and scale,from nonprofits to ministries to
businesses.
I always say everybody'sselling something.
It's just a matter of what.
A lot of nonprofits kind ofcringe at that and like, well,
we're not selling anything,we're helping people.
I know everybody hopefully isin some way trying to create an
impact for the people aroundthem, and so I've had the
privilege of helping gosh, Idon't know probably thousands of
(01:11):
organizations over the last 26years.
I started a marketing agency.
Really it was just a web designcompany when I was a kid it was
17 years old and that was 26years ago and we've grown every
year, little by little, from afew thousand dollars to a
multimillion-dollar agency.
Now we get to help bothfor-profit and nonprofit
organizations all over thecountry and really quite a few
(01:32):
all over the world.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I love it.
Well, and we're going to usesome of that expertise today
Because, as we were talking, Ithink nonprofit tends to and I
don't mean to paint with a verybroad brush, but they tend to be
a little behind when it comesto the tech side of things, and
that can definitely includetheir website.
I was on a nonprofit's websitethe other day that looked,
(01:57):
honestly, still like somebodyhad made a flyer in Microsoft
Publisher and just thumbtackedit to the internet.
Right, it was not user-friendlyat all, certainly not mobile
optimized.
It was literally just lookedlike a clip art publisher file.
So let's kind of dig into theidea of mistakes that you see
nonprofits make when they'rebuilding out their website.
(02:18):
If there was one thing that youcould start in and just be like
, hey, fix this.
Where would you start if youwere a nonprofit who is
rebuilding or building theirwebsite from scratch?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, to lay the groundwork.
I always say marketing can beconfusing and expensive.
Most organizations waste anenormous amount of time and
money on stuff that doesn't work, and we always say your
marketing needs to be clear andeffective so you can get
attention and grow.
When I'm thinking aboutmarketing as a whole, I always
(02:50):
say that the website is kind ofthe center of the marketing hub.
It's owned property wheresomething like social media or
paid ad campaigns are leasedproperty.
The reason I say that is awebsite and arguably, your
contact list phone numbers,email addresses, names are
things that you get to keep withyou and the platform might
change that you send emails outthrough, or the hosting
environment might change whereyou host your website, but they
still belong to you Versus, if Ihave an account on a social
(03:13):
media platform, they can justcome and go.
So the website is the center ofthat marketing hub.
And what a lot of people willsay, or the mistake that they'll
make, is they'll say well,people don't really know us from
our digital footprint.
They know us because so-and-sorefers them and so it's
relationship-driven, it'sevent-driven.
I'm like, yeah, I hear you, andthis is true for many
businesses too.
It's not a whole lot different,but the reality is that all of
(03:36):
your marketing collateral,starting with your website,
either makes people more likelyto get involved with your
organization or less.
There is no neutral, and so afew key things that we could
talk through and we can dig intoas many or as few of them as
you want on the website is, Iwould say design builds trust,
but words are what sell.
And so design builds trust butwords are what sell.
(03:59):
It's not either or it's bothand right.
It can't be great words butlook horrible, and it can't look
great but have words that areconfusing, and so we really
believe in layering those twothings on top of one another.
Million dollar organizationsand their website looks like it
(04:24):
was created by the kid down thestreet and no offense to the kid
down the street, because I usedto be that kid, so I'm glad
that people supported me inthose early days.
But once you get past a certainpoint, you need to bring some
professionals in, you need tohave a high quality design and
it needs to reflect the image ofthe organization, because it
really is your 24-7 talking head, of sorts, and if it's not
(04:46):
representing your organization,well, what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, that's a great point and, man, that is a
fantastic quote.
So when you approach a designor when you're approaching a new
client, do you start with thelook or do you start with the
words?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
We actually start with the words.
We always start with themessaging first.
We've just found over time thatthat produces a higher
conversion rate.
Do you start with the words?
We actually start with thewords.
We always start with themessaging first.
We've just found over time thatthat produces a higher
conversion rate.
And when I say conversion ratepeople may not be familiar with
that it's just the number ofpeople that visit your website
versus the ones that actuallyreach out to you.
And then one step further,people that actually donate,
(05:22):
volunteer, get involved, stufflike that.
And so we have found in generalthat if we get the words right
first, everything else fallsinto place a little bit better.
I'm not saying that the designmatters, but it doesn't matter
as much as people think.
So what I mean by that is itneeds to be consistent and look
professional and all that kindof stuff.
But I see people all the timeand this happens for-profit,
(05:44):
non-profit ministry, you name itwhere they overanalyze
something like their logo ortheir colors at this super deep
level, because some brandingdesign person told them to and
this is coming from a guy who'sdone branding and design his
whole life and I'm like nobodycares about the story about your
logo.
They really don't.
They really just care whetheryou're making an impact or not,
and if their time and money isgoing to be well used being
(06:07):
acquainted with yourorganization.
That's all they actually careabout.
And so we've got to convincethem that we've got to
sufficiently disturb them,ultimately, that the problem
you're solving is worth themgetting involved with.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, and I like your point, too, about it being kind
of the owned land, right, andinvesting actually in that owned
land instead of a socialplatform or somewhere where
you're renting space, so to say.
I know.
One of the things that I'veheard from a lot of nonprofits,
though, is that the challengethat they run into, or the
(06:41):
hurdle they can't seem to getover, is that their website has
to appeal to multipleconstituencies.
Right, we want it to reach thepeople that we are trying to
serve, so that they can maybeget connected to the ministry,
to the service that we offer tothe nonprofit, but we're also
trying to make it make sense fordonors, and we want it to
(07:03):
attract donors and tell them thestory of impact so that we can
bring them on board, and, at thesame time, we're also maybe
trying to talk to volunteers orparents, or there's all these
different constituencies thathave to be served by a website.
Tell me how you approach thatkind of segment of it, where one
site needs to talk to so manypeople.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, and this is true for almost everybody.
You know, like almost any kindof website is talking to many
different audiences.
The question is who's theprimary?
There is a primary.
People are like, well, there'snot really one.
Yes, there is, there is one,and if you can't identify that,
you have much bigger problemsthan your website.
So you need to know who is ourprimary target that we're trying
to convince to take some kindof action.
Who is that person?
It that you can't speak to theother people?
(07:45):
Some of them can't have theirown page or section or call outs
or whatever but when I firstload that page, what is the
story that you're trying to telland who are you trying to
convince to do something?
If you don't have clarity inthat, then nothing else that you
do is going to be as effectiveas you want it to be.
It's almost always this.
It's like the 80-20 principleis a real thing.
Who is the 80% that we'retrying to communicate to as it
(08:07):
relates to the website?
Most of the time for a nonprofit.
This isn't always true, but Iwould say 80% of the time it is
true.
It is the donors, because atthe end of the day, while the
mission is about who we serve.
The mission can't beaccomplished if you don't have
money and people to do it, andso most of the time the focus of
(08:27):
the website should be the donor.
Now, that doesn't mean it'slike about the donor necessarily
.
It can tell the story of whatthe nonprofit's doing and who
they're helping and what theproblem is and why their people
should care and why they shouldget involved.
But the focus of like what isthe next call to action?
It's usually going to be donate, volunteer, something like that
.
And so I would say, most of thetime, unless you have a really
(08:48):
compelling reason, it probablyis the donor as the primary
focus.
But there must be a primaryfocus, Even if it's not that you
can't.
It can't be everybody all thetime, you won't be effective.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, in any sort of marketing.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, that's.
True.
Yeah, a hundred percent acrossthe board.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yes, so tell me some other mistakes that you see
folks make when they are takingon a website overhaul project.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
One of the things that happens all the time when
you're writing the words for thewebsite, in the same way that
people worry too much about thestory behind their logo, for
example, they try and get toocutesy with their copy, and what
I mean by that is they'retrying to be a lot of insider
language or they're trying tojust be abstract and interesting
.
And you know, whencommunicating to team members,
(09:32):
dave Ramsey always says that tobe clear is to be kind.
I think that's true in themarketing world as well.
To be clear is to be kind toour audience, and so the more
clear we can be with ourmessaging, the better.
The other thing that happens alot with nonprofits is board of
directors tend to get involvedwith feedback, and design by
committee doesn't usually endvery well, and so what tends to
happen in the nonprofit space iswe end up with way too many
(09:56):
links on the homepage when Ifirst load it and way too many
decisions that I need to makebecause there's so many
different opinions.
Well, wouldn't it be nice if wehad a link to this?
No, we need a link to that.
And so all of a sudden, there's20 buttons, or even the
navigation.
There's 10 navigation itemseach with 10 dropdowns beneath
them, you know, and it's justtoo much.
And so we have one clear callto action what's the one next
(10:18):
thing I want to do?
If they don't do anything else,what's the one thing I want
them to do?
And so the ditch is either nothaving anything, any clear call
to action, or the one mostnonprofits fall off, which is
way too many.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Way too many things for them to click on, because
nobody's made a decision aboutwhat actually matters most.
So let's follow that thread.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
So I come to the homepage and it's very clear
this is the decision that youwant me to make, going back a
point.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
so we're saying that decision should be applicable to
the 80% right?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
For sure.
Okay, what about the rest ofthem?
Well, just the question becomeswhat do you want them to do?
Like, who do you want to dowhat?
No-transcript.
And so I want to gain attention, which is mostly marketing.
And then I want to createaction, which is mostly sales.
(11:14):
But they blend a lot together,and so people are like well, how
do I communicate X, y and Z?
Then the next question is well,what do you want them to do?
Like, do you want them to justknow things, cause that might be
more like an email update thannecessarily the website, or
there might be a section of thewebsite that has latest news
information, things like that.
But the main question is whoare you talking about?
What do they want?
(11:35):
And then, what do you want themto do?
And so, how do we create thatjourney for them from what they
want to what you want them to do?
But most of the time, peopleare trying to communicate to too
many audiences.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Pick one, do that really well, and then we can add
other options as we go.
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(12:17):
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Speaker 2 (12:50):
So talk to me a little bit about some of the
data pieces.
What do you recommend in termsof these are some things you
should be tracking, and if youdon't know these things, now's
the time to start looking atthat, especially when it comes
to web.
What are your top analyticsthat we should be looking at?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, data can be really overwhelming for a lot of
people.
They load up their websitestats or, especially if they
load up Google Analytics, it'slike gosh, you've got all the
data in the world, but what do Iactually look at?
And so I like to try andsimplify it as much as I
possibly can and just thinkabout kind of a basic marketing
funnel, and at the very topthere are strangers, people who
don't know who you are, don'tknow what you do and don't know
(13:25):
why they should care, and weneed to attract those people in
some way.
And so that attraction phase isgoing to happen by, certainly,
word of mouth and referrals andsocial media and paid ads and
search engine optimization andwho knows many other categories
of how they might be attractedto you.
And so I do want to track thatfirst variable, which is how
(13:45):
many strangers do I have comingto my website.
They were attracted there insome way.
Most people would call thatimpressions, but one of the
mistakes people make inmarketing is they can focus just
on that large impression number.
So it's like, oh, we got yourad in front of 4 million people
this week, and it's like, notsure if I care.
Maybe I do if it's the rightaudience.
But then the question becomesdo I know who they are?
(14:08):
Because if they're stillstrangers at this point, they
maybe know a little bit about myorganization, but I don't know
who they are.
Well, I can't follow up withthem.
If I can't follow up with them,I can't compel them to come
volunteer or come to an event ordonate or get involved in any
way, and so the next piece ofthe puzzle that I want to track
is how many of those strangersbecome visitors.
They then kind of convert intoknown relationships.
(14:30):
In the business world, weprobably call them prospects.
In a non-profit place, let'sjust call them known
relationships.
And this middle of the funnel isthe part where people get stuck
.
Everybody focuses on kind ofthe top and the bottom, the top
being.
I'll hear people come to us andgo Jay, we just need some more
SEO.
And I'm like maybe you do, orJay, we just need some more SEO.
And I'm like maybe you do, orJay, we just need more paid ads,
maybe we need more social media, maybe.
(14:52):
But what I always show people islet's say you have 1,000 people
coming to your website, justfor easy math's sake, and of
those 1,000 people.
You don't know who most of themare.
If anybody has looked at theirwebsite data before, it's
probably gone.
Hold on.
We've had how many people cometo the website, but we've only
had one donate.
So who are all these otherpeople?
And so we've got a thousandpeople come to the website.
Let's say a hundred of themfill out a form or download a
(15:16):
resource and engage in some wayso that we actually know who
they are.
That would actually be a reallygood conversion rate.
I'm just doing it for math'ssake.
So let's say we had a thousandpeople and a hundred of them.
I now know who they are.
I have 100 known relationshipsand arguably 900 unknown
relationships.
Let's say those 100relationships downloaded a
resource and 10 of them ended updonating.
Okay, so 1,000 goes into 100,goes into 10.
(15:38):
And what people think is, inorder for me to increase the
number of donors from 10 to 20,I just need to increase the
number at the top.
So I need to get more people inthe funnel.
I need to get 2,000 people sothat I can get 200 downloads, so
I can get 20 donors.
That makes sense.
I realize that's a lot of mathon a podcast because you're just
listening, but bear with me,but the idea makes sense.
But the problem is that what if, in that middle of the funnel,
(16:01):
what if, instead of those 1,000people turning into 100 known
relationships, what if those1,000 people turned into 200
known relationships, and thenthat turned into 20 donors?
And now I've got 20 donors offthe same 1,000 strangers instead
of needing to have double thenumber, because I've been more
efficient in the middle of thefunnel.
And what that middle of thefunnel is is a compelling reason
(16:23):
for people to connect with youin some way.
It could be a resource thatthey're downloading, it could be
information that they getaccess to, it could be a course
they could take or learn moreabout, and so there's some kind
of transitional we would call ita transitional call to action.
Maybe they're not ready todonate, maybe they're not ready
to volunteer, but they want toget a little bit more
information.
That is the conversion rate,which is kind of the second
(16:44):
variable that I want to payattention to.
That then leads into, hopefully, the later one, which is
following up with people to getthem to come to an event,
volunteer, donate, whatever.
The next primary action I wantis so really just those three
metrics are really good ones topay attention to.
The biggest problem is notwhich metric to pay attention to
.
It's that people often only payattention to the very top one,
(17:07):
which is total reach, totalimpressions.
It's not a bad thing to know,it's just one of many pieces of
the puzzle.
It's kind of like you know, ifI'm trying to lose weight, which
I perpetually am, and neverreally successful at it Aren't
we all.
Yes, but I'm only payingattention to the number of
minutes in the gym, but I'm notpaying attention to the number
(17:27):
of calories on my plate.
That is not going to be asuccessful equation.
I know that because I'm verygood at putting too many
calories on my plate.
Marketing can be like that.
I'm paying attention to onemetric over here.
It's one piece of the puzzle,it's just not the only piece.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, no, I love that .
So I think too.
Sometimes where we can get alittle bit hung up is and I was
talking to another leader aboutthis not too long ago is this
idea that we do need the 4million that are viewing the ad
right Realistically?
I don't know a nonprofit inthis country, or maybe even in
(18:04):
the world, who is set up from aninfrastructure standpoint to
instantaneously handle an influxof 4 million donors.
Sure, right like this just doesnot exist.
Be a great problem to have, butright, it'd be an amazing
problem to have, but for themost part, that's just not where
we live.
We don't have the capacity, wedon't have the infrastructure to
handle that um, and so I likethe way that you've broken this
(18:27):
down, because it does ithighlights the point that you
don't always need more at thetop.
We need to find our targetaudience and we need to talk to
those people specifically andwork on those relationships and
get to know who those people areinstead of just constantly
assuming.
We need a new acquisitionstrategy to fill the top of the
(18:48):
funnel.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, we need better messaging at the end of the day,
because what happens is peopleorganizations of all kinds love
to make it about themselves.
They love to talk aboutthemselves.
They'll talk about how greatthey are, they'll talk about all
the things they've done, andespecially, this is especially
rooted in the organizationswhere the primary leader is the
founder.
This is true in nonprofits asmuch as it is entrepreneurial
(19:12):
spaces.
When the founder is stillleading the organization,
they're typically, hopefully,very proud of their organization
, and that's not inherently bad.
In fact, I would say theyshould be.
If they're not, what are theyeven doing?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Right, then, what are you doing here?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
That said, when we lead with that messaging on the
website we've done this withmany nonprofits before where
we'll go, look at their websiteand it's all about them and it
should be really about thepeople that they serve, the
impact that they're creating andwhy somebody else should be
compelled to get involved.
Like, why should I even care?
We did a website one time for alocal organization called
(19:47):
Hunger Fight and they're anonprofit here in town.
They do some amazing work.
In the last decade or so theyhave delivered something like 12
or 13 million meals to kids inneed in the community.
It's amazing.
But when he first loaded thewebsite originally it just had
all these words and all thisdata on there and I said, here's
the problem.
Nobody knows why they shouldcare and you're kind of like
(20:09):
making the point that, likeyou've kind of got it already
handled, so it doesn't evensound like you need me to get
involved, frankly.
And then we changed some of themessaging where now one of the
primary things that pops up, youhave to scroll down a little
bit.
But once you scroll down alittle bit on their homepage it
says one in four kids don't getall the nutrition that they need
and that's just not.
That's not just kids anywherein the world, it's kids right
here in our own community.
(20:30):
And it was very specific andtargeted and it's like okay,
well, hold on now.
Now we're on to something,because I'm like well, I don't
like that, because in theirmessaging core we built in this
idea that philosophically, webelieve that it's just plain
wrong that in the richestcountry in the world that no
child should go hungry.
We believe that is true.
Now we all argue over how we'regoing to actually get it done,
(20:52):
but they're presenting anopportunity to help solve that.
And so when you make that casethat way, people go oh well, I
should probably help with this.
And you're like yeah, great.
And so now they're, on boardwhere previously they weren't,
because it was all about themand not about the people they're
serving and, ultimately, theproblem they're helping solve.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So one of the things that I have been having some
interesting discussions aroundlately, then, is how we tell
those stories in a way thatdoesn't just constantly go to a
crisis mode.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Right, that is like right.
One in four children goinghungry in my neighborhood is not
something I want to be true, Iwant to fix that problem, but
how do we say that in such a waythat doesn't constantly sound
like we don't even actually needyour help?
We're good.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Look at all the things that we're accomplishing,
but we also don't want tooverwhelm people with the
negative right.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Correct and make it like everything is a.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
I'm calling fire, exactly, and so here's the way
that I think about it iseverybody needs to know what is
at stake.
If you don't exist as anorganization, they need to know
what failure looks like, becauseif you're not here, then what
Like?
What is it?
What is the consequence?
Now, the risk, which is whatyou're talking about, is
(22:10):
overdoing that, making that thepredominant message, and so what
I always say is that failure inyour messaging is like salt in
a recipe.
You know, my nanny made thebest pound cake that you'll
never have, and she's the best.
Thanks a lot.
She was the best I know.
Well, she's not around anymore.
But there's more to this story.
My sisters attempted to learnhow my nanny cooked this pound
(22:34):
cake because she didn't have arecipe.
It was just a scoop of this anda dash of that.
Anybody that's ever had agrandma that cooks like that has
been well-blessed in their life.
And so it would be like a pinchof salt.
And we've all sat down in arestaurant and we've tasted a
meal that's over-salted.
That's the messaging that hastoo much failure in it.
And we've all sat down in arestaurant and had tasted a meal
where it's like just kind ofbland.
(22:54):
There's not much there.
That's messaging withoutfailure.
And so there's an old Irishproverb that says for every mile
of road there's two miles ofditch.
And the one ditch is we don'ttalk about failure at all, we
don't talk about what's at stake, we only talk about the
positive.
The other ditch is all we talkabout is the negative.
All we talk about is failure,and it's so overwhelming that
you're like I don't want to eventalk about it.
(23:17):
It just makes me I don't wantto.
I'm almost overly compelled andI'm like I don't even want to
talk about this.
Maybe take some money.
But I can't deal with this, youknow, and that's maybe not the
right reaction, but from amessaging perspective we want to
be somewhere in the middle.
Another good example years agomy wife and I were in marriage
counseling.
We've been married for 22 years.
Anybody that's been married forover two decades typically
(23:39):
finds themselves in some kind ofcounseling situation at some
point, and I was upset aboutsomething.
Who knows even what I don'tremember, so it wasn't that
important, but I remember thisanalogy that the counselor gave
me I think it applies to this.
Messaging and I'll close theloop on this is she said well,
you're worried about X, y and Z.
What happens if that happens?
And I was like well, you'reworried about X, y and Z, what
happens if that happens?
And I was like, well, then thishappens.
(24:00):
And then she just kept askingthe same question over and over
again Well then what?
And I'm like, well, then thishappens.
And then she's like, well thenwhat?
Well, then this happens, andthen what?
And then this happens, and thenwhat?
And then I die, like I meanridiculous and aggressive.
But that's exactly how ourbrains actually work.
People are primarily afraid oftwo things death and public
speaking.
(24:20):
I'm not afraid of publicspeaking.
I'm not really afraid of dying,I'm just afraid, like the
process of dying, but all theseother things, like the ultimate
risk is death, but we don'treally want to be going there in
our messaging.
So let's just dial it back alittle bit, a few more steps
back from that which is theoverwhelming, like super
negativity, but don't fall offthe other cliff, which is never
(24:42):
talking about what's at stake,because if there's nothing at
stake, if your organizationdoesn't exist, there's no reason
for your organization to exist.
That matters a ton.
If there's nothing at stake foryour organization to not exist,
there's no reason for yourorganization to exist.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Oh, that is.
That's the clip right there.
That's the quote.
Thank you for that.
That's an excellent analogy,jay.
If somebody wanted to connectwith you, tell us a little bit
more about Business Builders andhow folks would find you
connect and learn more.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
If you want to connect with me personally, the
best place to do that is onLinkedIn.
Just search forJ-O-N-J-A-Y-O-W-E-N.
I should pop up on theresomewhere.
Feel free to connect and reachout.
If I don't reply for somereason because I get tons of
connections just comment on oneof my latest posts or something.
I'll be more likely to see itthat way.
On the business side, weactually have a free course that
we just finished.
That's a five-part series thatpeople can go through to help
(25:34):
improve their messaging.
This is good for nonprofits,good for ministries, good for
for-profits, really will workfor anybody.
And it's an easy URL.
They can just go tostorybrandcoursecom and we kind
of unpack these ideas of how totalk about failure, how to talk
about success, how to get themessaging right on your website,
because we consider that to bestep number one.
(25:55):
If that part's not right, if themessaging is not right, we step
number one.
If that part's not right, themessaging is not right.
We shouldn't be moving intodesign.
And if the design's not goodand we don't have that, design
builds trust.
But words are what sell.
Combination then everythingelse we do social media, paid
ads, seo, events they're justnot going to have.
They might have some value, butthey're not going to have the
same value they could have hadif we got the foundation right.
It's like building your housein the sand versus building on a
(26:16):
solid foundation.
So storybrandcoursecom freecourse, no obligation to buy
anything or do anything, justsome videos that we think will
be helpful for folks out therethat want to learn.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I love it, jay.
Thank you.
This conversation has beenfantastic.
As we wrap up, if you couldspeak to maybe that nonprofit
founder we have a lot of founderexecutive director.
Be that nonprofit founder.
We have a lot of founderexecutive director, development
director folks who are audiencehere on the podcast.
If you could leave them withone thought of, here's a thing
that you could do today thatwould impact your website, that
(26:50):
would impact your marketing,that would impact how your
organization moves forward onthose fronts.
What would be your one takeawaytoday?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Yeah, I would just say number one.
Even though you said it's forone thing, I'm going to give you
two.
Number one is that the thingsthat you're doing matter.
We need people with big heartsand big minds who are conquering
complex issues and helping ourcommunities all over the country
.
So your work matters.
Number two when I land on yourwebsite, the question is can I
tell why it matters?
And so everybody doesn't haveyou in front of them to talk
(27:21):
about the purpose and themission and why you started and
all that kind of stuff, and sothe website has to be able to
tell that story.
And when I first land on yourwebsite, I need to know what do
you do, how does it make otherpeople's lives better, and how
do I take a next step?
And if I can't answer thosethree questions almost instantly
, then you're missingopportunity to connect and,
(27:42):
ultimately, you're missingopportunity to fulfill the
mission that you've set forthfor your organization.
So get those things right andit'll make all the difference.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Awesome.
I love that, Jay.
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed theconversation and there's so much
wisdom packed in there, so I'mexcited for everyone to dig into
it.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
My pleasure Again.
My guest has been Jay Owen,who's the CEO of Business
Builders.
Make sure you go and check himout and connect on LinkedIn.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time, Thank
you.
Marketing Support Network is proud to serve the
nonprofit community by offeringfull-service contact center
fulfillment, digital marketingand fundraising services.
Your vision is our mission andwe can't wait to partner with
you.
Visitmarketingsupportnetworkcom for
more information.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome back to the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear, andjoining me today is Jay Owen,
who is the CEO of BusinessBuilders.
We're going to be talking allthings website and data and
nonprofit marketing on the web.
I'm very excited to dig intoall of the conversations.
Jay, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Hey, megan, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Yeah, my pleasure, glad to have you here.
So tell the audience a littlebit about yourself as an
introduction.
How did you find yourself inthis space of serving the
nonprofit community?
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Yeah, I get to help all kinds of different
organizations grow and scale,from nonprofits to ministries to
businesses.
I always say everybody'sselling something.
It's just a matter of what.
A lot of nonprofits kind ofcringe at that and like, well,
we're not selling anything,we're helping people.
I know everybody hopefully isin some way trying to create an
impact for the people aroundthem, and so I've had the
privilege of helping gosh, Idon't know probably thousands of
(01:11):
organizations over the last 26years.
I started a marketing agency.
Really it was just a web designcompany when I was a kid it was
17 years old and that was 26years ago and we've grown every
year, little by little, from afew thousand dollars to a
multimillion-dollar agency.
Now we get to help bothfor-profit and nonprofit
organizations all over thecountry and really quite a few
(01:32):
all over the world.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I love it.
Well, and we're going to usesome of that expertise today
Because, as we were talking, Ithink nonprofit tends to and I
don't mean to paint with a verybroad brush, but they tend to be
a little behind when it comesto the tech side of things, and
that can definitely includetheir website.
I was on a nonprofit's websitethe other day that looked,
(01:57):
honestly, still like somebodyhad made a flyer in Microsoft
Publisher and just thumbtackedit to the internet.
Right, it was not user-friendlyat all, certainly not mobile
optimized.
It was literally just lookedlike a clip art publisher file.
So let's kind of dig into theidea of mistakes that you see
nonprofits make when they'rebuilding out their website.
(02:18):
If there was one thing that youcould start in and just be like
, hey, fix this.
Where would you start if youwere a nonprofit who is
rebuilding or building theirwebsite from scratch?
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Well, to lay the groundwork.
I always say marketing can beconfusing and expensive.
Most organizations waste anenormous amount of time and
money on stuff that doesn't work, and we always say your
marketing needs to be clear andeffective so you can get
attention and grow.
When I'm thinking aboutmarketing as a whole, I always
(02:50):
say that the website is kind ofthe center of the marketing hub.
It's owned property wheresomething like social media or
paid ad campaigns are leasedproperty.
The reason I say that is awebsite and arguably, your
contact list phone numbers,email addresses, names are
things that you get to keep withyou and the platform might
change that you send emails outthrough, or the hosting
environment might change whereyou host your website, but they
still belong to you Versus, if Ihave an account on a social
(03:13):
media platform, they can justcome and go.
So the website is the center ofthat marketing hub.
And what a lot of people willsay, or the mistake that they'll
make, is they'll say well,people don't really know us from
our digital footprint.
They know us because so-and-sorefers them and so it's
relationship-driven, it'sevent-driven.
I'm like, yeah, I hear you, andthis is true for many
businesses too.
It's not a whole lot different,but the reality is that all of
(03:36):
your marketing collateral,starting with your website,
either makes people more likelyto get involved with your
organization or less.
There is no neutral, and so afew key things that we could
talk through and we can dig intoas many or as few of them as
you want on the website is, Iwould say design builds trust,
but words are what sell.
And so design builds trust butwords are what sell.
(03:59):
It's not either or it's bothand right.
It can't be great words butlook horrible, and it can't look
great but have words that areconfusing, and so we really
believe in layering those twothings on top of one another.
Million dollar organizationsand their website looks like it
(04:24):
was created by the kid down thestreet and no offense to the kid
down the street, because I usedto be that kid, so I'm glad
that people supported me inthose early days.
But once you get past a certainpoint, you need to bring some
professionals in, you need tohave a high quality design and
it needs to reflect the image ofthe organization, because it
really is your 24-7 talking head, of sorts, and if it's not
(04:46):
representing your organization,well, what are you doing?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, that's a great point and, man, that is a
fantastic quote.
So when you approach a designor when you're approaching a new
client, do you start with thelook or do you start with the
words?
Speaker 3 (05:01):
We actually start with the words.
We always start with themessaging first.
We've just found over time thatthat produces a higher
conversion rate.
Do you start with the words?
We actually start with thewords.
We always start with themessaging first.
We've just found over time thatthat produces a higher
conversion rate.
And when I say conversion ratepeople may not be familiar with
that it's just the number ofpeople that visit your website
versus the ones that actuallyreach out to you.
And then one step further,people that actually donate,
(05:22):
volunteer, get involved, stufflike that.
And so we have found in generalthat if we get the words right
first, everything else fallsinto place a little bit better.
I'm not saying that the designmatters, but it doesn't matter
as much as people think.
So what I mean by that is itneeds to be consistent and look
professional and all that kindof stuff.
But I see people all the timeand this happens for-profit,
(05:44):
non-profit ministry, you name itwhere they overanalyze
something like their logo ortheir colors at this super deep
level, because some brandingdesign person told them to and
this is coming from a guy who'sdone branding and design his
whole life and I'm like nobodycares about the story about your
logo.
They really don't.
They really just care whetheryou're making an impact or not,
and if their time and money isgoing to be well used being
(06:07):
acquainted with yourorganization.
That's all they actually careabout.
And so we've got to convincethem that we've got to
sufficiently disturb them,ultimately, that the problem
you're solving is worth themgetting involved with.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, and I like your point, too, about it being kind
of the owned land, right, andinvesting actually in that owned
land instead of a socialplatform or somewhere where
you're renting space, so to say.
I know.
One of the things that I'veheard from a lot of nonprofits,
though, is that the challengethat they run into, or the
(06:41):
hurdle they can't seem to getover, is that their website has
to appeal to multipleconstituencies.
Right, we want it to reach thepeople that we are trying to
serve, so that they can maybeget connected to the ministry,
to the service that we offer tothe nonprofit, but we're also
trying to make it make sense fordonors, and we want it to
(07:03):
attract donors and tell them thestory of impact so that we can
bring them on board, and, at thesame time, we're also maybe
trying to talk to volunteers orparents, or there's all these
different constituencies thathave to be served by a website.
Tell me how you approach thatkind of segment of it, where one
site needs to talk to so manypeople.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, and this is true for almost everybody.
You know, like almost any kindof website is talking to many
different audiences.
The question is who's theprimary?
There is a primary.
People are like, well, there'snot really one.
Yes, there is, there is one,and if you can't identify that,
you have much bigger problemsthan your website.
So you need to know who is ourprimary target that we're trying
to convince to take some kindof action.
Who is that person?
It that you can't speak to theother people?
(07:45):
Some of them can't have theirown page or section or call outs
or whatever but when I firstload that page, what is the
story that you're trying to telland who are you trying to
convince to do something?
If you don't have clarity inthat, then nothing else that you
do is going to be as effectiveas you want it to be.
It's almost always this.
It's like the 80-20 principleis a real thing.
Who is the 80% that we'retrying to communicate to as it
(08:07):
relates to the website?
Most of the time for a nonprofit.
This isn't always true, but Iwould say 80% of the time it is
true.
It is the donors, because atthe end of the day, while the
mission is about who we serve.
The mission can't beaccomplished if you don't have
money and people to do it, andso most of the time the focus of
(08:27):
the website should be the donor.
Now, that doesn't mean it'slike about the donor necessarily
.
It can tell the story of whatthe nonprofit's doing and who
they're helping and what theproblem is and why their people
should care and why they shouldget involved.
But the focus of like what isthe next call to action?
It's usually going to be donate, volunteer, something like that
.
And so I would say, most of thetime, unless you have a really
(08:48):
compelling reason, it probablyis the donor as the primary
focus.
But there must be a primaryfocus, Even if it's not that you
can't.
It can't be everybody all thetime, you won't be effective.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, in any sort of marketing.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, that's.
True.
Yeah, a hundred percent acrossthe board.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yes, so tell me some other mistakes that you see
folks make when they are takingon a website overhaul project.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
One of the things that happens all the time when
you're writing the words for thewebsite, in the same way that
people worry too much about thestory behind their logo, for
example, they try and get toocutesy with their copy, and what
I mean by that is they'retrying to be a lot of insider
language or they're trying tojust be abstract and interesting
.
And you know, whencommunicating to team members,
(09:32):
dave Ramsey always says that tobe clear is to be kind.
I think that's true in themarketing world as well.
To be clear is to be kind toour audience, and so the more
clear we can be with ourmessaging, the better.
The other thing that happens alot with nonprofits is board of
directors tend to get involvedwith feedback, and design by
committee doesn't usually endvery well, and so what tends to
happen in the nonprofit space iswe end up with way too many
(09:56):
links on the homepage when Ifirst load it and way too many
decisions that I need to makebecause there's so many
different opinions.
Well, wouldn't it be nice if wehad a link to this?
No, we need a link to that.
And so all of a sudden, there's20 buttons, or even the
navigation.
There's 10 navigation itemseach with 10 dropdowns beneath
them, you know, and it's justtoo much.
And so we have one clear callto action what's the one next
(10:18):
thing I want to do?
If they don't do anything else,what's the one thing I want
them to do?
And so the ditch is either nothaving anything, any clear call
to action, or the one mostnonprofits fall off, which is
way too many.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Way too many things for them to click on, because
nobody's made a decision aboutwhat actually matters most.
So let's follow that thread.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
So I come to the homepage and it's very clear
this is the decision that youwant me to make, going back a
point.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
so we're saying that decision should be applicable to
the 80% right?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
For sure.
Okay, what about the rest ofthem?
Well, just the question becomeswhat do you want them to do?
Like, who do you want to dowhat?
No-transcript.
And so I want to gain attention, which is mostly marketing.
And then I want to createaction, which is mostly sales.
(11:14):
But they blend a lot together,and so people are like well, how
do I communicate X, y and Z?
Then the next question is well,what do you want them to do?
Like, do you want them to justknow things, cause that might be
more like an email update thannecessarily the website, or
there might be a section of thewebsite that has latest news
information, things like that.
But the main question is whoare you talking about?
What do they want?
(11:35):
And then, what do you want themto do?
And so, how do we create thatjourney for them from what they
want to what you want them to do?
But most of the time, peopleare trying to communicate to too
many audiences.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Pick one, do that really well, and then we can add
other options as we go.
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(12:17):
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Speaker 2 (12:50):
So talk to me a little bit about some of the
data pieces.
What do you recommend in termsof these are some things you
should be tracking, and if youdon't know these things, now's
the time to start looking atthat, especially when it comes
to web.
What are your top analyticsthat we should be looking at?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, data can be really overwhelming for a lot of
people.
They load up their websitestats or, especially if they
load up Google Analytics, it'slike gosh, you've got all the
data in the world, but what do Iactually look at?
And so I like to try andsimplify it as much as I
possibly can and just thinkabout kind of a basic marketing
funnel, and at the very topthere are strangers, people who
don't know who you are, don'tknow what you do and don't know
(13:25):
why they should care, and weneed to attract those people in
some way.
And so that attraction phase isgoing to happen by, certainly,
word of mouth and referrals andsocial media and paid ads and
search engine optimization andwho knows many other categories
of how they might be attractedto you.
And so I do want to track thatfirst variable, which is how
(13:45):
many strangers do I have comingto my website.
They were attracted there insome way.
Most people would call thatimpressions, but one of the
mistakes people make inmarketing is they can focus just
on that large impression number.
So it's like, oh, we got yourad in front of 4 million people
this week, and it's like, notsure if I care.
Maybe I do if it's the rightaudience.
But then the question becomesdo I know who they are?
(14:08):
Because if they're stillstrangers at this point, they
maybe know a little bit about myorganization, but I don't know
who they are.
Well, I can't follow up withthem.
If I can't follow up with them,I can't compel them to come
volunteer or come to an event ordonate or get involved in any
way, and so the next piece ofthe puzzle that I want to track
is how many of those strangersbecome visitors.
They then kind of convert intoknown relationships.
(14:30):
In the business world, weprobably call them prospects.
In a non-profit place, let'sjust call them known
relationships.
And this middle of the funnel isthe part where people get stuck
.
Everybody focuses on kind ofthe top and the bottom, the top
being.
I'll hear people come to us andgo Jay, we just need some more
SEO.
And I'm like maybe you do, orJay, we just need some more SEO.
And I'm like maybe you do, orJay, we just need more paid ads,
maybe we need more social media, maybe.
(14:52):
But what I always show people islet's say you have 1,000 people
coming to your website, justfor easy math's sake, and of
those 1,000 people.
You don't know who most of themare.
If anybody has looked at theirwebsite data before, it's
probably gone.
Hold on.
We've had how many people cometo the website, but we've only
had one donate.
So who are all these otherpeople?
And so we've got a thousandpeople come to the website.
Let's say a hundred of themfill out a form or download a
(15:16):
resource and engage in some wayso that we actually know who
they are.
That would actually be a reallygood conversion rate.
I'm just doing it for math'ssake.
So let's say we had a thousandpeople and a hundred of them.
I now know who they are.
I have 100 known relationshipsand arguably 900 unknown
relationships.
Let's say those 100relationships downloaded a
resource and 10 of them ended updonating.
Okay, so 1,000 goes into 100,goes into 10.
(15:38):
And what people think is, inorder for me to increase the
number of donors from 10 to 20,I just need to increase the
number at the top.
So I need to get more people inthe funnel.
I need to get 2,000 people sothat I can get 200 downloads, so
I can get 20 donors.
That makes sense.
I realize that's a lot of mathon a podcast because you're just
listening, but bear with me,but the idea makes sense.
But the problem is that what if, in that middle of the funnel,
(16:01):
what if, instead of those 1,000people turning into 100 known
relationships, what if those1,000 people turned into 200
known relationships, and thenthat turned into 20 donors?
And now I've got 20 donors offthe same 1,000 strangers instead
of needing to have double thenumber, because I've been more
efficient in the middle of thefunnel.
And what that middle of thefunnel is is a compelling reason
(16:23):
for people to connect with youin some way.
It could be a resource thatthey're downloading, it could be
information that they getaccess to, it could be a course
they could take or learn moreabout, and so there's some kind
of transitional we would call ita transitional call to action.
Maybe they're not ready todonate, maybe they're not ready
to volunteer, but they want toget a little bit more
information.
That is the conversion rate,which is kind of the second
(16:44):
variable that I want to payattention to.
That then leads into, hopefully, the later one, which is
following up with people to getthem to come to an event,
volunteer, donate, whatever.
The next primary action I wantis so really just those three
metrics are really good ones topay attention to.
The biggest problem is notwhich metric to pay attention to
.
It's that people often only payattention to the very top one,
(17:07):
which is total reach, totalimpressions.
It's not a bad thing to know,it's just one of many pieces of
the puzzle.
It's kind of like you know, ifI'm trying to lose weight, which
I perpetually am, and neverreally successful at it Aren't
we all.
Yes, but I'm only payingattention to the number of
minutes in the gym, but I'm notpaying attention to the number
(17:27):
of calories on my plate.
That is not going to be asuccessful equation.
I know that because I'm verygood at putting too many
calories on my plate.
Marketing can be like that.
I'm paying attention to onemetric over here.
It's one piece of the puzzle,it's just not the only piece.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, no, I love that .
So I think too.
Sometimes where we can get alittle bit hung up is and I was
talking to another leader aboutthis not too long ago is this
idea that we do need the 4million that are viewing the ad
right Realistically?
I don't know a nonprofit inthis country, or maybe even in
(18:04):
the world, who is set up from aninfrastructure standpoint to
instantaneously handle an influxof 4 million donors.
Sure, right like this just doesnot exist.
Be a great problem to have, butright, it'd be an amazing
problem to have, but for themost part, that's just not where
we live.
We don't have the capacity, wedon't have the infrastructure to
handle that um, and so I likethe way that you've broken this
(18:27):
down, because it does ithighlights the point that you
don't always need more at thetop.
We need to find our targetaudience and we need to talk to
those people specifically andwork on those relationships and
get to know who those people areinstead of just constantly
assuming.
We need a new acquisitionstrategy to fill the top of the
(18:48):
funnel.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, we need better messaging at the end of the day,
because what happens is peopleorganizations of all kinds love
to make it about themselves.
They love to talk aboutthemselves.
They'll talk about how greatthey are, they'll talk about all
the things they've done, andespecially, this is especially
rooted in the organizationswhere the primary leader is the
founder.
This is true in nonprofits asmuch as it is entrepreneurial
(19:12):
spaces.
When the founder is stillleading the organization,
they're typically, hopefully,very proud of their organization
, and that's not inherently bad.
In fact, I would say theyshould be.
If they're not, what are theyeven doing?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Right, then, what are you doing here?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
That said, when we lead with that messaging on the
website we've done this withmany nonprofits before where
we'll go, look at their websiteand it's all about them and it
should be really about thepeople that they serve, the
impact that they're creating andwhy somebody else should be
compelled to get involved.
Like, why should I even care?
We did a website one time for alocal organization called
(19:47):
Hunger Fight and they're anonprofit here in town.
They do some amazing work.
In the last decade or so theyhave delivered something like 12
or 13 million meals to kids inneed in the community.
It's amazing.
But when he first loaded thewebsite originally it just had
all these words and all thisdata on there and I said, here's
the problem.
Nobody knows why they shouldcare and you're kind of like
(20:09):
making the point that, likeyou've kind of got it already
handled, so it doesn't evensound like you need me to get
involved, frankly.
And then we changed some of themessaging where now one of the
primary things that pops up, youhave to scroll down a little
bit.
But once you scroll down alittle bit on their homepage it
says one in four kids don't getall the nutrition that they need
and that's just not.
That's not just kids anywherein the world, it's kids right
here in our own community.
(20:30):
And it was very specific andtargeted and it's like okay,
well, hold on now.
Now we're on to something,because I'm like well, I don't
like that, because in theirmessaging core we built in this
idea that philosophically, webelieve that it's just plain
wrong that in the richestcountry in the world that no
child should go hungry.
We believe that is true.
Now we all argue over how we'regoing to actually get it done,
(20:52):
but they're presenting anopportunity to help solve that.
And so when you make that casethat way, people go oh well, I
should probably help with this.
And you're like yeah, great.
And so now they're, on boardwhere previously they weren't,
because it was all about themand not about the people they're
serving and, ultimately, theproblem they're helping solve.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
So one of the things that I have been having some
interesting discussions aroundlately, then, is how we tell
those stories in a way thatdoesn't just constantly go to a
crisis mode.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Right, that is like right.
One in four children goinghungry in my neighborhood is not
something I want to be true, Iwant to fix that problem, but
how do we say that in such a waythat doesn't constantly sound
like we don't even actually needyour help?
We're good.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Look at all the things that we're accomplishing,
but we also don't want tooverwhelm people with the
negative right.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Correct and make it like everything is a.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
I'm calling fire, exactly, and so here's the way
that I think about it iseverybody needs to know what is
at stake.
If you don't exist as anorganization, they need to know
what failure looks like, becauseif you're not here, then what
Like?
What is it?
What is the consequence?
Now, the risk, which is whatyou're talking about, is
(22:10):
overdoing that, making that thepredominant message, and so what
I always say is that failure inyour messaging is like salt in
a recipe.
You know, my nanny made thebest pound cake that you'll
never have, and she's the best.
Thanks a lot.
She was the best I know.
Well, she's not around anymore.
But there's more to this story.
My sisters attempted to learnhow my nanny cooked this pound
(22:34):
cake because she didn't have arecipe.
It was just a scoop of this anda dash of that.
Anybody that's ever had agrandma that cooks like that has
been well-blessed in their life.
And so it would be like a pinchof salt.
And we've all sat down in arestaurant and we've tasted a
meal that's over-salted.
That's the messaging that hastoo much failure in it.
And we've all sat down in arestaurant and had tasted a meal
where it's like just kind ofbland.
(22:54):
There's not much there.
That's messaging withoutfailure.
And so there's an old Irishproverb that says for every mile
of road there's two miles ofditch.
And the one ditch is we don'ttalk about failure at all, we
don't talk about what's at stake, we only talk about the
positive.
The other ditch is all we talkabout is the negative.
All we talk about is failure,and it's so overwhelming that
you're like I don't want to eventalk about it.
(23:17):
It just makes me I don't wantto.
I'm almost overly compelled andI'm like I don't even want to
talk about this.
Maybe take some money.
But I can't deal with this, youknow, and that's maybe not the
right reaction, but from amessaging perspective we want to
be somewhere in the middle.
Another good example years agomy wife and I were in marriage
counseling.
We've been married for 22 years.
Anybody that's been married forover two decades typically
(23:39):
finds themselves in some kind ofcounseling situation at some
point, and I was upset aboutsomething.
Who knows even what I don'tremember, so it wasn't that
important, but I remember thisanalogy that the counselor gave
me I think it applies to this.
Messaging and I'll close theloop on this is she said well,
you're worried about X, y and Z.
What happens if that happens?
And I was like well, you'reworried about X, y and Z, what
happens if that happens?
And I was like, well, then thishappens.
(24:00):
And then she just kept askingthe same question over and over
again Well then what?
And I'm like, well, then thishappens.
And then she's like, well thenwhat?
Well, then this happens, andthen what?
And then this happens, and thenwhat?
And then I die, like I meanridiculous and aggressive.
But that's exactly how ourbrains actually work.
People are primarily afraid oftwo things death and public
speaking.
(24:20):
I'm not afraid of publicspeaking.
I'm not really afraid of dying,I'm just afraid, like the
process of dying, but all theseother things, like the ultimate
risk is death, but we don'treally want to be going there in
our messaging.
So let's just dial it back alittle bit, a few more steps
back from that which is theoverwhelming, like super
negativity, but don't fall offthe other cliff, which is never
(24:42):
talking about what's at stake,because if there's nothing at
stake, if your organizationdoesn't exist, there's no reason
for your organization to exist.
That matters a ton.
If there's nothing at stake foryour organization to not exist,
there's no reason for yourorganization to exist.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Oh, that is.
That's the clip right there.
That's the quote.
Thank you for that.
That's an excellent analogy,jay.
If somebody wanted to connectwith you, tell us a little bit
more about Business Builders andhow folks would find you
connect and learn more.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
If you want to connect with me personally, the
best place to do that is onLinkedIn.
Just search forJ-O-N-J-A-Y-O-W-E-N.
I should pop up on theresomewhere.
Feel free to connect and reachout.
If I don't reply for somereason because I get tons of
connections just comment on oneof my latest posts or something.
I'll be more likely to see itthat way.
On the business side, weactually have a free course that
we just finished.
That's a five-part series thatpeople can go through to help
(25:34):
improve their messaging.
This is good for nonprofits,good for ministries, good for
for-profits, really will workfor anybody.
And it's an easy URL.
They can just go tostorybrandcoursecom and we kind
of unpack these ideas of how totalk about failure, how to talk
about success, how to get themessaging right on your website,
because we consider that to bestep number one.
(25:55):
If that part's not right, if themessaging is not right, we step
number one.
If that part's not right, themessaging is not right.
We shouldn't be moving intodesign.
And if the design's not goodand we don't have that, design
builds trust.
But words are what sell.
Combination then everythingelse we do social media, paid
ads, seo, events they're justnot going to have.
They might have some value, butthey're not going to have the
same value they could have hadif we got the foundation right.
It's like building your housein the sand versus building on a
(26:16):
solid foundation.
So storybrandcoursecom freecourse, no obligation to buy
anything or do anything, justsome videos that we think will
be helpful for folks out therethat want to learn.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I love it, jay.
Thank you.
This conversation has beenfantastic.
As we wrap up, if you couldspeak to maybe that nonprofit
founder we have a lot of founderexecutive director.
Be that nonprofit founder.
We have a lot of founderexecutive director, development
director folks who are audiencehere on the podcast.
If you could leave them withone thought of, here's a thing
that you could do today thatwould impact your website, that
(26:50):
would impact your marketing,that would impact how your
organization moves forward onthose fronts.
What would be your one takeawaytoday?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
Yeah, I would just say number one.
Even though you said it's forone thing, I'm going to give you
two.
Number one is that the thingsthat you're doing matter.
We need people with big heartsand big minds who are conquering
complex issues and helping ourcommunities all over the country
.
So your work matters.
Number two when I land on yourwebsite, the question is can I
tell why it matters?
And so everybody doesn't haveyou in front of them to talk
(27:21):
about the purpose and themission and why you started and
all that kind of stuff, and sothe website has to be able to
tell that story.
And when I first land on yourwebsite, I need to know what do
you do, how does it make otherpeople's lives better, and how
do I take a next step?
And if I can't answer thosethree questions almost instantly
, then you're missingopportunity to connect and,
(27:42):
ultimately, you're missingopportunity to fulfill the
mission that you've set forthfor your organization.
So get those things right andit'll make all the difference.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Awesome.
I love that, Jay.
Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed theconversation and there's so much
wisdom packed in there, so I'mexcited for everyone to dig into
it.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
My pleasure Again.
My guest has been Jay Owen,who's the CEO of Business
Builders.
Make sure you go and check himout and connect on LinkedIn.
This has been another episodeof the Nonprofit Hub Podcast.
I'm your host, Megan Spear, andwe'll see you next time, Thank
you.
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