October 17, 2024 • 68 mins
Ever wondered how the battle between good and evil can be expressed through art? Join us as acclaimed artist Apoc unveils the secrets behind his transformative project "Influx," comprising 333 unique pieces exploring this timeless theme. Apoc's journey is a testament to the power of personal identity and authenticity in art, inspired by his culturally rich upbringing in Texas and a 15-year career as a creativity expert. Through photography, painting, digital art, and music, he illustrates how artists can connect with their heart, mind, and soul to create meaningful work that resonates universally.
Listeners are promised a comprehensive look at the dynamic Web3 space, teeming with youthful energy and creativity. As Apoc shares his vision for the future, he highlights the potential of NFTs and crypto art to foster a mature dialogue addressing global challenges. We delve into tales of artistic risk-taking, revealing the importance of balancing artistic vision with market expectations while maintaining a low supply of art editions to enhance value. Personal anecdotes add depth to the narrative, encouraging listeners to embrace their creative aspirations and seize opportunities without delay.
Social media strategies for artistic growth also come into focus, as Apoc discusses how artists can expand their personal brand and connect with wider audiences. The conversation touches on upcoming art events in Miami and Marfa, where more relaxed atmospheres might offer the chance to form meaningful connections. We also explore Apoc's aspirations to establish a new kind of art school inspired by Black Mountain College, aiming to cultivate creativity across disciplines and inspire future generations. As we wrap up, the importance of community and the role of supporters in spreading the word about artistic work shine through, underlining the value of friendship and shared journeys in this creative endeavor.
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Episode Transcript
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NorCal Guy (00:00):
Who is this?
Who is this guy, who is thisguy, who is this guy, who is
this guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal
guy, norcal guy, norcal guy,norcal guy.
NorCal and chill podcast Show.
It's chill time.
Norcal and chill podcast.
(00:21):
What the sh, what the sh?
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
What the shill, what the shill?
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
So it's shill time.
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
What the shill, what the shill?
Welcome everyone to anotherepisode of NorCal and Shill.
Today we're diving into anenriching conversation with APOC
(00:42):
, whose work spans a variety ofmediums, from photography to
painting to digital art andmusic.
In today's episode, our guestshares extraordinary insights
into the art world, emphasizingthe profound importance of
dialogue between artists andcollectors.
We'll also explore theirinnovative initiatives, like
(01:05):
structured dialogue events andart card collections designed
for deeper community engagement.
Our guest will walk us throughthe challenges and rewards of
their ambitious project Influx,which delves into the thematic
narratives of good versus evil,featuring 333 unique pieces
(01:28):
crafted with exceptionaldedication.
We'll hear about his journeyinto crypto art, the
transformations in the digitalart space and his perspective on
the future of nTs.
From his roots in a culturallyrich Texas upbringing to a
transformative 15-year career asa creativity expert,
(01:51):
culminating in a profoundventure into crypto art, this
artist brings a vibrant tapestryof experiences and wisdom, with
visions of Web3 and acollaborative future reminiscent
of Black Mountain College.
Today's discussion promisesdeep dives into both the
artistic process and thephilosophical underpinnings of
(02:13):
his work.
So let's get started on thisartistic journey with our
special guest Apoc.
Hey, apoc, welcome to thepodcast.
How you doing today.
Apoc (02:24):
Great man, Good to see you .
Thanks for having me on.
Glad to be here.
NorCal Guy (02:28):
Yeah, it's good to see you too.
I mean, it's been, I feel, likesince New York that I've
actually like seen you.
Apoc (02:36):
Yeah, it's been a while.
Man, time goes fast, or was it?
NorCal Guy (02:40):
Miami.
It could have even been Miami,I don't even know if.
Apoc (02:42):
In Miami in Miami we spent some time together.
I think in New York we may havebriefly seen each other right,
right, right um but Miami wasthe was the big hang at the
house that was so cool and uh,um, it goes fast, dude.
I'm surprised it's Septemberalready and it just feels like
(03:03):
it was just like not very longago that we were in Miami.
NorCal Guy (03:07):
Are you going again this?
Apoc (03:07):
year.
Are you guys doing the samething?
NorCal Guy (03:10):
I'm hoping to go to Miami.
I mean, it's really justdepends on if I can get some
family to come up and stay andwatch the kids while I fly out
there, kids while I fly outthere.
Um, and it's just like rightthere after Thanksgiving, which
is also a hard holiday to uhjuggle around, I know, right
(03:32):
before Christmas, when it's so.
Apoc (03:34):
you know, if you have kids it's super busy, especially but
, yes, but it is the.
It is like, uh, um, I have agreat time in Miami.
It feels a lot more intimateand slow and just um easy to see
everyone.
Yes, compared to new york yeah,oh yeah I'm, I'm hoping to go
(03:56):
and bring all my friends,including you yeah, no, I.
NorCal Guy (03:59):
I like miami much better than new y I will say
that I always have a better timethere.
Apoc (04:07):
Yeah, I mean New York is fun, but I feel like it's
frenetic and a lot of walkingand rushing from place to place
and then shouting at my friendsfor a few minutes before they
disappear and I don't see themagain.
NorCal Guy (04:19):
Yeah, or or shouting at them at one place and then
all right, we got to go to thisnext place and shouting at them
at that next place, Right?
Apoc (04:26):
Right, whereas Miami is just like oh shit, man, I'm just
going to chill here by the poolfor a bit.
You want to play some pool?
You want to go for a swim?
Should we take a walk Like it's?
NorCal Guy (04:35):
really chill yeah.
Apoc (04:37):
Yeah.
NorCal Guy (04:39):
It's nice, all right .
Well all right.
Well, I'll look for you there,bro.
All right, um.
Also marfa in texas.
Oh yeah, november.
That also is because that monthis busy, but I am going to try
and make marfa.
Um also depends on family, uh,or someone being able to watch
the kids and uh.
(04:59):
But yes, that is hopefullygonna happen yeah, yeah.
Apoc (05:04):
well, I'm in the same boat Hoping.
NorCal Guy (05:07):
Hoping it'll happen.
So what were your firstthoughts when you heard about
crypto art, NFTs?
Apoc (05:21):
Interest Um interest I.
I had been looking for an artcommunity for a couple of years
because I was feeling ready toshare my art.
I've made art for many years andnever shared or sold anything
(05:43):
and I because I wanted to justmature a little bit um, which I
can get into, but let's find itready.
And I heard about crypto, artand um.
I heard about it a few timesand by the third time I was, I
(06:03):
was really interested, and so II started learning about it a
few times and by the third timeI was, I was really interested,
and so I I started learningabout it.
I took about six months to likelearn about it and talk to
people and watch videos andstuff.
I didn't know it was happeningon Twitter, so I didn't know
where it was happening, right,um, and finally finally joined,
finally minted in early uh 2021,started hearing about it,
(06:30):
probably not quite a year beforethat, but like eight months
before that, something like that.
I can't remember right.
NorCal Guy (06:40):
So what brought you to art?
How did you choose art?
Apoc (06:46):
So what brought you to art ?
How did you choose art?
I have always been an artist.
I was raised with a very, Iwould say, forward-thinking
household.
I would say forward-thinkinghousehold.
(07:06):
Both my parents were inclinedtowards culture and travel and
ethnic food and things like that.
I grew up in a big city inTexas and my parents were kind
of fringe Not hippies.
(07:28):
They weren't like fringe,fringe, fringe, but they
definitely weren't.
They definitely didn't fit themold and a lot of friends
thought they were weird.
But what that really meant wasthat my sister and I got piano
lessons and got drawing lessonsand took gymnastics and ballet
(07:51):
and had friends from othercountries and went to their
houses to spend the night andeat with their families and got
exposed to different kinds offood, and that we traveled.
And a big part of that was likewe had this set of
encyclopedias and I would justread about art a lot, so my
(08:14):
parents would take me to the artmuseums and so I just got
exposed to it and I just wasraised as if it's a normal part
of humanity.
Um, so much so that when Ithought about what I was going
to do, I didn't even think aboutart as a career.
I, I I didn't really come toart as a career until um I tried
(08:38):
a few other things and realizedit's not my vibe, it's not
where I'm home, yeah and um.
So once I kind of locked intoart when I was a little bit
older, like 19, uh, I just kindof took off from there nice, so
I think what brought, whatbrought me really into art was
(08:59):
just the, the lived experienceof the human experience.
So not reading about it and nothearing about it from teachers,
but like direct experience ofhumanity, whether through music
or through architecture orthrough paintings or through
opera or ballet.
It was like this is where thejuice of being human is.
(09:23):
So that's kind of what got meinto it, yeah.
NorCal Guy (09:28):
So what kind of grunge jobs have you done along
the way to get to where you are?
Apoc (09:38):
So I did some grunge jobs when I was a kid.
When I was a kid, I was pretty,pretty entrepreneurial.
So my friends and I would likepick mistletoe and sell it for
christmas and we would just doanything.
Yeah, um, for adventure and forfun and to make some money.
Um, we didn't really.
(09:59):
I didn't really start thinkingabout starting a business until
much later, but it was likelittle odd jobs and I moved
furniture developing black andwhite and later color prints and
(10:29):
negatives, with the chemicalsand later the machines.
So I kind of learned the oldschool way.
Um, in fact I was that's how,that's kind of how.
I started making serious artwas through photography, okay,
and then went into painting andvideo and digital and music and
all that.
But I had a first career doingsomething completely different.
(10:52):
For 15 years I was kind of acreativity expert in the field
of multi-stakeholdercollaboration.
So I would travel around theworld and create or design and
lead collaboration processesamong leaders of different
(11:15):
organizations or differentsectors or sometimes different
countries, when they were allfacing some kind of social
challenge that was bigger thanany one of them, bigger than any
one organization or sectorcould face.
So I kind of fell into that andlearned a lot about government
(11:42):
and corporate and nonprofitbecause I worked inside all of
those kinds of structures and,uh, ultimately learned that, um,
you know what I, what I reallywanted to accomplish, couldn't
work in that environment.
So I left that career and waskind of scratching my head about
what to do next when crypt artcame along.
NorCal Guy (12:08):
All right, that makes sense.
Yeah, but you've been paintingalong the hallway like in the
background, yeah, so I grew upplaying the piano and drawing
and then got into photography.
Apoc (12:24):
Did photography since I was about 12.
Put that down pretty much whenI was around 20 or 19.
Started getting into paintingand sculpture and video, did
some electronic music.
So I've always beenmultidisciplinary,
(12:46):
interdisciplinary, focused onpainting, starting probably
after college.
Okay, just because it was themost challenging, for sure, I
(13:08):
think it's really hard, it'skind of surprisingly difficult,
and so I figured if I can learnto paint well, then I can learn
to make art in any other medium,because painting is the hardest
(13:29):
.
Now, that may not be true foreveryone I'm not saying it's
universally the hardest, but forme it was the most challenging
and it occurred to me that if Icould learn to paint well, then
I can also carry that competenceacross other media whether it
(13:49):
be digital or sculpture.
I mean, back then there was nosuch thing as digital art or it
was very obscure because, youknow, the programs on computers
were so limited.
But I started doing digital artseriously about 2003, 2001,
even with final cut 7 and andphotoshop and stuff like that.
(14:12):
Um, even before that, actually1998, I had a hacked version of
photoshop that I got on limewire.
Um, you remember that I don'tknow if you have, if a
generation had that, but likeyou could, you could sort of
hack Photoshop and coulddownload it and hack it and get
it, but for a long time the, the, the computers just were slow
(14:38):
and laggy and the internet wasslow.
So I I dabbled in digital artbut didn't really focus there.
I focused on painting for thereasons that I said.
NorCal Guy (14:52):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
So what do you think the bestthings are about web three today
?
Apoc (15:18):
I tend to look at web three in terms of opportunity.
It occurs to me I haven't donethe research, but I'm guessing
that a lot of people in webthree are in their 30s, um, and
uh, so I see a lot of raw, rawraw energy, like we can do this,
we can do anything.
Um, which is typical, which I.
I was like that in my 30sbecause I didn't really get my
ass kicked until my 40s.
Um, because I, I think in my inmy late 30s and 40s, I started
(15:44):
to see my limits, the limits ofmy thinking, the limits of my
understanding, the limits of youknow that kind of energy, so
there's like a mellowing thathappens after that.
But there's also a focusing.
(16:06):
That happens when you can nolonger do everything and you can
only do one thing or one or twothings.
You take one thing and do itwell, and then you get on to the
next thing.
NorCal Guy (16:15):
So I kind of see this burgeoning space of it can.
Apoc (16:20):
We can do anything, we can do everything, and I think,
okay, that will eventuallymellow into kind of all right.
So what are we really doing?
What do we?
really want to do, and there'sso much energy and creativity in
web 3.
There's so much youthfulness inthe positive sense that I'm
(16:40):
hopeful that this burgeoningcreativity can, over time, focus
and, and certain great thingswill, rise to the top and really
help shape culture in our world.
And that's what's most excitingfor me, that's why I'm in it.
I think, um the answer to theanswer to so many social
(17:03):
challenges is strengtheningculture, and strengthening
culture on its own grounds andits own terrain.
Not forcing it to comply to anyideology or any worldview or
any way of thinking, but reallynourishing human minds and the
(17:23):
human soul to become itself,become what it can become, to
grow itself on its own ground.
That is how we build a strongculture when people draw from
their own sources of interestand curiosity about existence
(17:46):
and my theory, dude is that astrong culture can rebalance the
excesses in other domains ofour society so we can rebalance
authoritarian tendencies and wecan rebalance abuses of power
and violence and extraction, youknow, just punishing extraction
(18:11):
of people and resources.
All of these things tend tobalance out when there's a
strong culture, because valuesshift right and we start to
value each other, and we startto value timeless human
experiences, and and then whencultures meet, they, they form a
hybrid they, they, they uh theymix and they blend instead of
(18:36):
fighting and going to war.
So I think web 3 has a role toplay in all that.
If we can really grow theinternet culture to be kind of
independent of ideology and notlike just taking sides red or
blue and not just bickeringamong ourselves, but really grow
(18:59):
the culture, then it can be apositive force in the world.
NorCal Guy (19:05):
So to speak.
Yeah, I could see that for artspace in five years.
Apoc (19:25):
Well, I think a lot can happen in five years.
Five years ago or even you knowif you think about even 10
years ago, so many things werefundamentally different, right?
So we're going through allthese shifts, radical shifts
(20:03):
like this seems like a very opendecade because, at least for
people in my circles, the ColdWar had ended and apartheid had
ended and the 90s were this opendecade.
And then came 9-11.
And kind of a new war narrative, right right that was so
tiresome to live under.
It's so tiresome to live underthis narrative of endless war,
(20:28):
whether it be with the sovietsor with whomever, and so we're
in that again, and it's just astiresome now as it was then.
So I think, when I think aboutNFTs and crypto art, in five
years, I think much of what wevalue today will be completely
irrelevant, because things canshift so fast.
(20:50):
If major war breaks out in theEast or in the Middle East I
mean in Eastern Europe or theMiddle East so many of the
narratives that drive the NFTand crypto art space will just
become absolutely shit-tastinglyirrelevant.
NorCal Guy (21:13):
Yeah.
Apoc (21:14):
Like an ancient past of who gives a fuck about that.
That said, I think there's someartists and some projects that
will endure because they they uhkind of bake in values of
freedom of speech andtransparency and critique and,
(21:35):
um, access, access and digitalart as a medium.
So I again, I see it through anopportunity.
I think the opportunity is herefor artists to say what you
want to say and become relevantin the world.
That's coming because it's it'sgoing to be changing radically,
(21:57):
so so I don't stick with trendsor hype.
I do my thing because I thinkthe message of my work will
become increasingly relevant,and if it doesn't, I'm okay with
that.
But if, but I think it will.
So I expect in five yearsyou're going to have serious
artists still, a lot of peoplehere will still be here making
(22:18):
art because they're serious art.
A lot of collectors will stillbe here, but I also anticipate a
growing seriousness and focus.
I'd like to see and Ianticipate just more serious
dialogue about the art, aboutthemes, about existence, what
we're doing, state of the world,current events.
(22:38):
So I expect it'll become quitea serious and rich and diverse
ecosystem and grow up a littlebit in a positive sense and be
able to, you know, hold seriousdialogues about what's happening
(22:58):
in the world today.
NorCal Guy (23:00):
Yeah.
Apoc (23:01):
I think some of that's starting, but I think we have a
long way to go.
NorCal Guy (23:05):
Right, you kind of touched kind of a little bit on
this, but is there anythingyou'd like to see more of in the
NFT space?
Apoc (23:14):
Yeah, I mean, this question of dialogue is really
close to my heart.
Last year I asked my daughter,Irene, and the two of us flew
down to LA and and invited RobNess and and Patrick Amadon and
(23:46):
Mari to host a dialogue lastyear in Miami in December, and
that was a prototype and it wentfine it was.
It ended up being more of adive bar event, but my goal with
that kind of initiative is tomeet more artists and collectors
and get to know them and focuson what people really care about
(24:07):
, and I anticipate and I hopethat there's more room for that
in digital art, even if it's atthe edges and fringes, like it
has been in traditional art.
There's a lot of hype andstupid stuff that goes on in
(24:34):
contemporary art and traditionalart just trends and just you
know who's popular and butthere's always room for more
inquisitive conversation andthere's artists who show up and
have something to contribute tothat dialogue and that's that's
(24:56):
kind of what I want to see withwith crypto art too, just um
time and space to dig into thework and the the real questions
that artists are bringing intheir work right
I mean, if you look at someonelike Joe Pease or Summer Wagner,
(25:21):
there are some seriousquestions in their art that
they're raising.
I think I raised thosequestions and similar questions.
I can think of a lot of artists.
I think ACK raises greatquestions in his art.
He's a bit tongue-in-cheekabout it, but I think there's a
(25:42):
lot of depth underneath thosehumorous layers.
There's a lot of thinking aboutlife and death and existence
and, uh, I've had some greatconversations in person with you
and others about what.
(26:03):
What drives people.
But that's hard to surface whenwe're on crypto twitter all the
time and and when we gettogether and it's shouting and
quick and fast and you know thatreal depth that artists live
with.
Um doesn't often get to come tothe surface and I I think it
(26:24):
harms the work.
It doesn't.
It doesn't serve the work ifyeah if we artists are just in
isolation, working on our thing,but we don't really get to meet
each other and talk aboutwhat's really driving us and the
questions that really drive usand, conversely, when we do get
that opportunity, thatfertilizes and nourishes the
work.
So I'd like to make room and bepart of those kinds of
(26:47):
inquiries and I think it wouldenrich the space enormously.
NorCal Guy (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, we don't really have anything like that
and it's kind of I mean, yeah,it'd be nice to have something
like that.
I mean kind of like what youdid in miami last year, um, but
outside of that, I mean i't knowif Twitter Spaces is the way
(27:16):
for that, but yeah, I meanTwitter Spaces is pretty good.
Apoc (27:21):
I think if I do again, if I do another thing like we did
last year, I wouldn't do it at adive bar.
In fact, I just have a longlist of things to do, but on my
list of things to do is to tryto do another um.
We called it open form.
Um, to try to do another openform like, but a little bit more
(27:43):
structured, so that it'squieter atmosphere and people
can find the opportunity to diga bit deeper into what really
drives them and and share a bitabout what really drives them,
like cafe style, around smalltables or I don't know.
(28:03):
There's lots of different waysto do this kind of thing.
But yeah, I think it would help.
It would help to tap thetradition of that that's been
established in traditional artand contemporary art Artist
(28:24):
talks, live conversation, peoplesitting on the floor at tables
and talking with each other andlooking at the work and, um, you
know, spending time reallyfocused on it, getting into it
and and not just have loud musicplaying all the time and
parties like that's all good,but I think we could add to our
scene by having that kind ofevent yeah, so I'm curious your
(28:49):
thoughts on supply and additionsand one of ones, and how you
kind of work it all together,your opinion on all that um, uh,
I like the game.
I won't say that I'm great at it, but I like it.
(29:11):
I like to play it.
Um, so I've got a few thingskind of cooking with my
additions nothing, nothing'sgone live yet, but how to um,
burn or do other things withthose additions so that people
can get other work?
Um, I try to keep additioncounts relatively low.
(29:34):
Once I gave out a free editionand for some reason it minted
like 4,000.
But other than that, everythingis under 100.
Yeah, I haven't done anyeditions in a while.
It's something I'd like to domore of.
I started a collection calledthe Art Cards and did some
(29:55):
myself, but did some coolcollaborations with Jake the
D-Gen and Robness and Mitch Tomand I'd like to do some more of
those Art Cards.
I think it's a fun way to engagethe community and work with
other artists, good to get toknow them and hang out.
(30:16):
We launched the influx with anaddition with Click Create,
which ended up being great.
I'm so glad there's 128editions of Carbon Cop out there
.
I think it's a great piece.
I think it's the kind of aspark that starts the whole
(30:40):
story of the influx, and so it'sgreat that it's an addition and
the whole community can kind ofhave that.
Um, I'm not too fussed aboutsupply.
I, I know that there's.
I mean, I appreciate, likeanyone, the financial dimensions
of our game here.
But I all, as an artist and aculture builder, one of my
(31:07):
mantras is there's no such thingas too much great art.
So I've seen some artists whomI know and respect and really
love as friends kind of coachother artists to not overdo it
on supply, and I think there'ssome wisdom there.
Overdo it on supply, and Ithink there's some wisdom there.
(31:28):
But at the same time life goesfast and the years pass and this
is your, this is your chance,right?
So I'm I've had a good,fruitful conversation with
Amadon on this.
We both agree that make as muchart as you can and make
judiciously.
(31:50):
Now I'm about to break my ownrule with that, because the
influx is going to have 333 oneof ones.
But I think that's.
I think that's great.
I think it's great to haverules and then break them and
bend them.
I think that the influx aregoing to be great pieces.
They're going to be canonicalin the APOC world and in five
(32:13):
years that'll be super clearthat you know.
These 333 pieces were veryspecial and unique in the space
and the scene.
So I'm going into this knowingthat not everybody is going to
get that right away.
Right, I've told a fewcollectors and they're like 333,
that's way too many.
(32:34):
And I'm just like you knowthat's not.
Sometimes the vision for theart and the art project clashes
with what collectors think isgood for the numbers Right Right
.
And in that case you just haveto follow.
I follow the good for thenumbers Right, right, and in
that case you just have tofollow.
I follow the vision for the art.
NorCal Guy (32:51):
That makes sense.
That's what you got to do.
You got to stick to you, toyour voice and how you want to
accomplish that ultimately.
Apoc (33:03):
Yeah, I have a mission and a message, and so I design
projects to get that across.
NorCal Guy (33:09):
Yeah, Now.
Apoc (33:09):
I also design projects so that I can feed my family and
make a living and pay off debt,like everybody.
But I tell you dude every ifyou want to do something
substantial, it's going to be arisk.
NorCal Guy (33:27):
The only way you don't take a risk is it's going
to be a risk.
Apoc (33:30):
The only way you don't take a risk is by doing
something that's not substantial.
So making a contribution,making a name for ourselves,
we've had to take risks and inretrospect it looks like like oh
, that wasn't that risky becauseit paid off right but when I
released the 49 meetings, I hadno idea if anybody was going to
(33:53):
be interested.
I had no idea if anyone, ifanyone, was going to buy.
And the same with the additions, the same with the insights and
the burdens and all thesethings that I've done and and
the same is true of influx.
And every time I'm leveling up,every time I'm pushing myself
to my limit.
The influx is an incrediblyambitious, difficult, complex
(34:13):
undertaking.
I can't even the detail and themoving parts here is unlike
anything I've ever seen.
But that's how we grow.
So I'm doing it even if nobody.
I mean God willing.
NorCal Guy (34:36):
I hope people notice and appreciate it, but I'm kind
of going to do it, no matterwhat the outcome is.
Yeah, Do you have a piece ofadvice that you kind of live by,
a mantra that kind of goesthrough your head?
Apoc (34:51):
Yeah, um, I have a few, um , but I thought, about this
question and, um, the one I wantto share is something my dad
told me when I turned 40, Iasked him he he was.
He was about 70.
I said, looking back on yourlife, think back to those years
(35:19):
between when you turned 40 andnow, and what piece of advice
would you give me as I turned 40?
And he said something thatreally struck me.
I'll never forget it.
Um, he said fulfill yourcreative potential, because
(35:42):
that's one thing I did not do,because that's one thing I did
not do and I took this, the roadthat I thought was safer at the
time.
And if I had, if I had to do itagain, I would not have done
that.
I would have taken the creativeroad, because in fact I think
that would have been better onall accounts mm-hmm so I was
(36:06):
already on that path but to getand he's always, he's always
supported me or while I wasalive.
But when I heard that I waslike you know, this is not
something to take lightly.
This is not something that'seasy to do.
This is not something that youcan do later.
You can just wait and kind ofhave fun now and tap your
(36:29):
creative potential later.
It's more like building abuilding or it's like building a
pyramid.
It's like this is not a smalleffort.
This is a monumental effort toto tap your real creative
potential and to realize it.
(36:50):
So, whatever you're doing, ifyou're an artist, like, start
now and take it seriously andyeah, give yourself a lot of
slack and and give yourself alot of room for error, but, like
, do it and learn to strengthenyour resolve and your will so
that you do it above, like,almost above all other things.
(37:16):
I would just have one caveat,which is the other piece of
advice that I received was frommy mentor, who at one point he
point he said, you know,eventually you grow up and you
realize that, um, all the, allthe things that you thought
really mattered mattered lessthan the productive work of
(37:37):
self-transformation.
So it was like he always kindof laughed at me because I was
so ambitious and so full of allthe things that I would do,
because he had lived that lifeand he had finally kind of
matured to a space where he justwanted to do his work and help
(37:59):
other people and he was like,yeah, you know, um, do
everything you can, but you knowwhen, when, when you get to a
certain stage, um, you realizethat you can't tolerate yourself
(38:20):
who you are you don't.
You want to be somethingdifferent.
You want to transform.
All humans want to transform.
All humans want to be somethingelse.
They want to become somethingelse, and that that really
struck me.
We're all trying to transform,we're all trying to be something
else and go through some sortof metamorphosis.
So he was like do it, you know,work on, become who you want to
(38:45):
become and keep going becausethere's no upper limit.
So that's what's been mostsignificant for me.
My life's really focused on myown metamorphosis to become a
creative person in service of mymission.
NorCal Guy (39:03):
Yeah, that's good.
Do you have advice for artistsjoining this space?
Apoc (39:15):
I guess my biggest piece of advice is to play a long game
.
NorCal Guy (39:19):
I mean yeah, you know like, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, I think it shoulddefinitely be approached that
way.
Um many have approached it aslike just get as much as you can
extractive, but uh, the longgame, I think, is definitely
(39:41):
where you should focus, I agree.
Apoc (39:50):
Yeah, I mean I was up in the redwoods last week visiting
a farm that does all these coolthings with water and vortexes
and stuff like that, and he tolda story.
The farmer told a story about aridge that used to be covered
with old growth redwoods, likethousands of year old trees,
yeah and some guy came into town, bought the rights and, on
(40:13):
behalf of the logging company,cut down all the old growth like
clear cut the entire ridge 30,40 years ago, because it was
like $2 billion of redwood backthen and then sold the land.
(40:36):
So they come in, they destroythe entire landscape for money
and then they leave other peopleto clean it up.
And I just think, man, that'snot the way.
I think it's tempting to comein and extract everything, but
it's ultimately destructive toself and other and ecosystem and
community.
(40:57):
It's much better to come in andbuild something of value and
it's much harder.
But if you're really joiningthe crypto art space, if I were
mentoring someone who wasjoining the crypto art space Guy
, I would say who are you really?
What do you actually want to do?
(41:18):
And I would point to like 10artists and say look at how
serious they take their work.
That's you.
That's what you need to dowhile you join this space.
If you want to be takenseriously, if you want to really
build something of value, whatare you doing?
Actually, it can be anything.
If you dig deep enough, it'sgoing to be good.
(41:41):
But who are you, aside from thetrend or the hype, or your
insecurities or your desires oryour vanity, your ambition, your
shallow sense of yourself, youridentity, your race, your skin,
your gender, your nationality,like?
Put all that aside, who are youas an individual, and where's
(42:05):
your heart, mind and soul?
And let's unpack that and let'smake that a world, because
that's what other people aregoing to resonate with that's
what's actually going to tap theuniversal right.
NorCal Guy (42:19):
I like that, so kind of switching it up a little bit
.
If you were an animal, whatwould you be and why?
Apoc (42:30):
an eagle okay uh, I would be an eagle because, um, I'd
like to see everything at onceand I I would love to fly.
I think birds fly, for I go tothe beach a lot because I live
near the beach.
The other day I was at the beachand I saw this.
I don't know what a group ofpelicans was called there's
(42:52):
probably a technical name for itbut it was like a bunch of
pelicans flying around and theywere all looking for the
thermals to ride.
They were just up there havingfun and an eagle being able to
see everything at once.
I just think that would be sucha trip like if you could see
clearly and in detail the entireworld uh, so yeah plus, they're
(43:20):
just such they're such coolbirds, so big, and I don't know.
You've probably seen them inperson, right?
NorCal Guy (43:27):
yeah, I mean not up close, but yes, I mean besides
the zoo.
But yeah, I have seen them outin in the wild.
Yeah, out in the wild, and whenyou've seen them out in the
wild, they're otherworldly likea bald eagle or a golden eagle,
I don't care what you seethey're, they're like they're
like griffins, they're likemythical beasts.
Yeah, they are so cool, yeah soif you could live or move
(43:57):
anywhere, where would you liveand why?
Apoc (44:02):
uh, that's a great question.
So for a long, long time Iwanted to live in Europe because
I love the culture of, I justlove the cathedrals and the old
paintings and serious amount ofart there.
But in the last but since COVID, I gave up on that.
(44:23):
I was like you know what Europehas fallen?
Europe is falling and I havesome very close friends and one
of my mentors is in Europe.
He's a freaking genius, thisguy, and of course he saw what
was happening with COVID and hewas like look we're looking to
America to protect freedom ofspeech and mind.
(44:48):
So now I'm pretty happy livingon the west coast.
Um, I want to start the schoolso.
So my family and I are arebuilding a project of starting a
new kind of black mountaincollege.
Black mountain was a school inamerica from 1933 to 1956 in the
(45:11):
hills of north carolina, and itended up being a very
influential art school.
Okay, but they focused oncreativity at the center of all
the disciplines okay, and I'vethought about this for like 30
years, and so now I'm finallyactually got a working group and
got a partner and a fewpartners and a piece of land in
(45:32):
our sights and we're about tostart raising capital for that
and that's out here on the WestCoast.
It's beautiful, it'sotherworldly in terms of the
nature.
It's otherworldly in terms ofthe nature, yeah, um, it's so.
It's so welcoming and socalming to the nerves to be near
the beach or in the redwoods orout on the grassy hills.
(45:54):
It is really, it is really likeTolkien's world, um, you know,
without the snow coveredmountains in the distance, but
you get this endless, thisendless ocean.
Uh, so that's my favorite placeit's just a little further out
than where I live now no, I mean, that makes sense.
NorCal Guy (46:14):
It's beautiful over there, hey yeah it is nice.
So yeah, do you have anyquestions for me?
Apoc (46:23):
yeah, I do um.
So I have a couple questions.
Number one how has your, uh,our education grown in the last
few years?
NorCal Guy (46:43):
uh, you know that's interesting.
Um, I guess it's more likelearning different techniques
from different.
Like when you are I'm not amaster, but when you talk to
someone that it has masteredtheir craft, they can easily
(47:03):
tell like kind of what has goneinto this piece of someone else
or something, um the technicalaspects of it, not necessarily
like the message of the pieceand so to be able to kind of
start to discern like potentialeffort being put in, because
(47:25):
initially in this space there's,you know, people are coming at,
especially in like 21, all thisartists popping up.
Are they legit?
Are they not try and doresearch here and there and then
learning like some technicalbackground of like how it's done
(47:45):
and like that kind of helpswith like figuring out, okay, is
this person good at what theydo?
Um, or is this just like acouple steps beyond tutorial
type of thing, and I guessthat's that applies to maybe
more 3D-ish art or maybepotentially animations, not
(48:09):
necessarily paintingsIdentifying what potentially has
more skill behind it initially,yeah, and my second question
(48:37):
for you is how do you think ofsubstance in art?
Like a message behind the piecetype of thing.
Apoc (48:48):
Yeah, depth substance meaning.
All these are synonyms in thiscontext.
NorCal Guy (48:58):
It's definitely well .
I don't know if it isoverlooked, but it kind of feels
like it's overlooked in thisspace.
It's very, cause this space issuch a what's hot.
The second type of thing Ithink it's great and definitely
(49:19):
I have, you know, passed onpieces that I have haven't liked
the message particularly, orlike something was dark about it
or and I was like, yeah, I'mgonna pass on this because it's
not my thing.
You know that can be someoneelse's thing.
So I think it's good.
(49:40):
I think it's great to have amessage.
I don't know if I'm I won'tnecessarily pass on a piece if
it doesn't have a message.
Apoc (49:51):
I mean, I like aesthetically pleasing things a
lot as well um, so I have athird question for you, but I
want to, I think I want to tellyou about my project first.
NorCal Guy (50:12):
All right, so let's hear about any projects you're
working on, things you'd like todiscuss about your current art
adventures.
Apoc (50:21):
Yeah, yeah, so, um.
So, right now, about to releasechapter two of influx, um,
chapter one is called theorigins.
(50:43):
There are 31 of ones and, um, Ithink something between 18 and
20 I can't remember have beencollected.
So there's 10 more there, soI'm gonna actively start.
I haven't really startedhunting, like looking for
(51:04):
collectors, like asking myexisting collectors to become
stewards or become originscollectors, but, um, the origins
collectors are what I callstewards because they are, um,
they have been so helpful in merealizing this project, so we
(51:24):
released Carbon Cop as anaddition with Click Create a
year ago.
NorCal Guy (51:28):
Yeah.
Apoc (51:29):
And the last year of selling these one-of-ones just
by showing them on Twitter andpeople DM me and we make a deal
and they sell.
They've sold for the first few,sold for around one and most of
them have sold for one and ahalf.
NorCal Guy (51:47):
Yeah.
Apoc (51:50):
And that's what's kept the studio and the family afloat
for the last year.
And so these collectors haveessentially been patrons to keep
the studio afloat.
So I call them stewards becausethey really have been
instrumental in helping realizethis project.
(52:10):
So, number one, I'm going tonow find my last ten stewards,
and the stewards as a whole willreceive a piece from chapter
two.
So every origin from chapterone has a character arc.
And so what I mean by that?
(52:31):
If, like, if you think of, uh,any great story like harry
potter or lord of the rings orshoot, anything in the bible,
like any great story that youcan think of, there's multiple
characters and they havecharacter arcs, they all
experience some kind of conflictand some kind of transformation
, some sort of development, um,or a failure, or or both.
(52:56):
And so we we've kind of thoughtabout influx in the same way,
with this sort of cast ofcharacters who appear in each
chapter in different forms.
So so your piece, for example,seeker, she appears in chapter
(53:23):
two, the ordeal, in another form, and in Chapter 3, the oversoul
, she'll appear in another form.
NorCal Guy (53:39):
So that's what I'm doing right now.
Apoc (53:41):
I'm preparing to launch Chapter 2 and about to start
looking for my last 10 stewards,but the influx as a whole um
began with chapter three, theoversoul okay, which is?
144 one of ones, and I startedmaking them in 2021.
(54:04):
When everyone was talking aboutcommunity and all these 10,000
PFP projects were coming out, Ithought, well, a community isn't
really a community unless itsticks together through thick
and thin.
There has to be something atstake, there has to be something
(54:24):
hard.
NorCal Guy (54:26):
What is a community?
Apoc (54:27):
I started thinking about what is a community, and so I
decided well, I'm just going toI'm actually going to paint a
series of portraits that reflectthis space.
I'm going to make a series ofportraits of people here which I
kind of lost interest in thatand started making a different
kind of series of portraits.
(54:47):
In short, it became this kindof world.
Because I realized as I waspainting them.
By painting I mean physicallypainting.
That's part of my process.
I use the physical paintings asinputs and then I animate the
works digitally.
It's a whole process.
But as I was painting them, Ihad to really think about each
(55:11):
one as a being, with a storyLike is this a human, is this a
god, is this a demon?
Is this some sort of thing thatpossesses?
Is this part of me?
Is this a benevolent force?
And so all these moreexistential, philosophical
questions kind of came alive inthe studio.
(55:32):
And then, three years later,it's 333, one of ones.
And so altogether I think ofthe influx as this world of
(55:55):
beings who are caught up in whatI call the vertical war.
The vertical war is invisiblebecause it's not a horizontal
war like between armies orbetween factions, or between red
and blue or between neighbors.
But all those are horizontalwars because they take place on
the horizontal plane of theground where people walk around.
(56:16):
The vertical war is betweengood and evil, it's between the
archetypal forces of the world,it's between the old gods and
new gods.
It's sort of a spiritual battle.
In my imagination it's the wayI think about life is that
(56:37):
people are kind of caught up ina battle for the future.
So as the pandemic washappening and I saw what I
thought was a bunch of liescoming through the government
and the official media channels,I just saw lie after lie after
(56:58):
lie and I thought it was liesbecause, having worked in the
multi-stakeholder field with allthese organizations, I know
what it takes to get even 10organizations to agree on an
agenda or talking points.
NorCal Guy (57:14):
It takes a year of work.
Apoc (57:15):
Yeah, because every institution in every country and
every hierarchy of people hasits own identity and mission,
and you have people who haveegos and they're there's
infighting.
You don't.
You don't magically gethundreds of countries or
hundreds of organizations toagree something spontaneously.
(57:37):
So I was wondering from thevery beginning, like what the
fuck is going on?
No way to do this without,without plans, so anyway that
was just me, dude.
NorCal Guy (57:50):
I just didn't buy it .
Apoc (57:51):
I was like whatever the fuck this is we're not, we're
not, we're not doing this yeahas a family like no, um, I.
And I tried to tell people likedon't, don't believe the hype,
just wait, just wait.
Whatever this is, I don'tbelieve it's good.
So what flooded my work wasthese pictures of good and evil,
(58:11):
because how does evil work?
Evil?
NorCal Guy (58:15):
works through lies Right Right.
Apoc (58:19):
That's how evil works in the world Lies violence,
corruption, manipulation.
So much of it is lies.
So not to get too philosophicalor spiritual on you, but these
were the thoughts that were inmy mind as I started to influx.
Like, this is what we're seeingin our time is a battle for the
(58:42):
truth and a battle for thefuture and a battle for the mind
.
A battle for the truth and abattle for the future and a
battle for the mind.
And so the vertical war becamekind of a story of humanity
caught up in this battle and youcan think about a lot of
different ways freedom versusauthoritarianism, borders and
(59:05):
migration and war, like I don'tknow.
These are all thoughts that Ithink of.
So these 333 portraits kind ofpicture different beings with
different intentions, sowarlords and mad scientists and
liars and manipulators and justordinary people caught up in it,
(59:27):
people suffering from grief orloss or madness, or also people
breaking through andtransforming and finding joy and
happiness and laughter, andalso beings like sorcerers and
madonnasnas and angels, and justI just let my imagination kind
(59:50):
of run freely, uh-huh, um, andmade this whole cast of
characters, some of whom aresuffering and some of whom are
serving evil, some of whom areconsciously doing good and some
of whom are serving good, andthey're just the whole spectrum.
(01:00:11):
So there's some secrets to theoversaw, which I won't reveal
now, but it is.
I will say there's nothing,there's nothing like it that
exists.
Yet this is.
This is a completely uniqueproject, as far far as I'm aware
, in crypto art.
NorCal Guy (01:00:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Apoc (01:00:31):
Not just because there's so many pieces.
That's part of it, but there'sother things that make it what
it is that no one's done before,so it's fully consuming.
It's fully consuming, it'sfully involving.
I'm so focused making it that Ican't adequately tell the story
(01:00:51):
, so my marketing is terrible.
I mean it's okay when I do it,but it's not what it needs to be
to convey what I've got goingon Right.
NorCal Guy (01:01:06):
Convey what I've got going on.
Apoc (01:01:07):
So that's what I'm working on.
That's what the studio isworking on.
I've got my older daughter ismy main assistant, my younger
daughter sometimes help.
We've hired in other assistantsfrom outside and it's like 10
times more work than I thoughtit would be, but it's really
fucking cool.
NorCal Guy (01:01:25):
I'm really excited about it.
Yeah, 10 times more work than Ithought it would be, but it's.
It's really fucking cool.
I'm really excited about it.
Yeah, no, you definitely.
Um, I guess, since it was ayear ago since we started
talking in, uh, since you didthe job for click, create and
beyond, um, you've definitelyhave a passion about it and a
love for it, and that isdefinitely.
Uh can tell that, yeah.
Apoc (01:01:50):
I just need to spread that passion and love to more people
so that more people are like ohshit, this is so cool.
Um, I'm kind of getting there,but I'm I'm a little bit
understated, I think.
NorCal Guy (01:02:02):
Hmm, sure, just a little bit, but that's all right
.
I mean, that's you, though,that's you, you're authentic.
Yeah, cool, did you haveanother question after that?
Apoc (01:02:19):
So my question, my question for you is um, I want
you to be honest, positive andnegative, like what do you think
and see when you see my workand me?
How does apocalypse fit intoour scene in your mind?
Positive and negative orneutral, just whatever you can
(01:02:41):
share and be honest.
You can always edit later, butI'm genuinely interested in how
you see my studio, because I'mlooking for room, I'm looking
for where I can improvepotentially.
I'm not looking for affirmation, but um, but I'd like to know
(01:03:02):
positive and you know, whatshould I keep doing?
What should I change?
NorCal Guy (01:03:07):
Or what should I improve?
Oh well, I mean, like yourproject is different, definitely
different than anything in thespace currently.
I can't, nothing comes to mindthat's doing something on a
scale that you are doing.
That's, I mean.
(01:03:31):
The hard part is and what andmany struggle with this is
getting that champion multiplechampions on your side to chat
and talk about this project,Because everyone you know has
(01:03:53):
their own thing that they wantto talk about.
And that's the hard part Isgetting the word out.
I don't know if I'm the rightguy to ask, Just because I don't
scroll the timeline much, but Idon't feel like I see your
(01:04:20):
stuff out there very much, To behonest, and I don't know, um,
the best way to change that.
Whether it's reply guying someor not, I don't know, just
(01:04:42):
posting it out there.
I have no idea what the solutionis Getting more involved with
the project, or maybe you know,maybe I'm just throwing this out
there because I have no ideaMaybe there's some artists that
want to contribute characters,their own version of a character
(01:05:04):
, want to contribute characters,their own version of a
character, or maybe you have, Idon't know, some sort of
derivative of this or somethingI don't know.
But then you're expanding it alittle bit, which is not
necessarily a bad thing.
But if you've got more peoplethat want to be a part of this,
(01:05:26):
then it could, you know, grow.
And then you have people thatare your fans, or, or however
you want to call them, stewardsum, to be talking about it more.
Apoc (01:05:45):
Yeah, good Thanks, dude.
Yeah, I've had that feedback alot that people just don't see
the work Friends, people thatfollow and like me and respect
me.
So I'm trying to tweet more andtrying to romance the algorithm
because I think the algorithm mytheory is that the algorithm
(01:06:07):
shows you posts from accountsthat are bigger or the same size
than yours.
So I'm not sure how thealgorithm works just in terms of
follower counts.
I really don't know, but I'vehad a lot of people tell me I
(01:06:30):
just don't see the work.
So I feel like I'm thinking Itweet too much, but I keep
hearing that I'm not tweetingenough or not replying enough or
not doing enough spaces.
NorCal Guy (01:06:46):
So it's good input, thanks well, apoc I, I would
like to just thank you fortelling me about your story,
going in depth a little bitabout yourself and um, learning
more about you, how you got towhere you were and and and
getting this dream out there,this um fulfilling that, and uh,
(01:07:10):
I really appreciate your timetoday and I hope to either see
you in Marfa or Miami this year.
Apoc (01:07:19):
Hey man, thank you.
Thanks for having me on,appreciate your questions and
appreciate um your being asteward and your collecting and
just your friendship andtracking with you these last
couple years and look forward tomore.
NorCal Guy (01:07:32):
NorCalGuy.
Who is this?
Who is this guy, who is thisguy, who is this guy, who is
this guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal
guy, norcal guy, norcal guy,norcal guy.
NorCal and chill podcast Show.
It's chill time.
Norcal and chill podcast.
(00:21):
What the sh, what the sh?
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
What the shill, what the shill?
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
So it's shill time.
Norcal and Shill Podcast.
What the shill, what the shill?
Welcome everyone to anotherepisode of NorCal and Shill.
Today we're diving into anenriching conversation with APOC
(00:42):
, whose work spans a variety ofmediums, from photography to
painting to digital art andmusic.
In today's episode, our guestshares extraordinary insights
into the art world, emphasizingthe profound importance of
dialogue between artists andcollectors.
We'll also explore theirinnovative initiatives, like
(01:05):
structured dialogue events andart card collections designed
for deeper community engagement.
Our guest will walk us throughthe challenges and rewards of
their ambitious project Influx,which delves into the thematic
narratives of good versus evil,featuring 333 unique pieces
(01:28):
crafted with exceptionaldedication.
We'll hear about his journeyinto crypto art, the
transformations in the digitalart space and his perspective on
the future of nTs.
From his roots in a culturallyrich Texas upbringing to a
transformative 15-year career asa creativity expert,
(01:51):
culminating in a profoundventure into crypto art, this
artist brings a vibrant tapestryof experiences and wisdom, with
visions of Web3 and acollaborative future reminiscent
of Black Mountain College.
Today's discussion promisesdeep dives into both the
artistic process and thephilosophical underpinnings of
(02:13):
his work.
So let's get started on thisartistic journey with our
special guest Apoc.
Hey, apoc, welcome to thepodcast.
How you doing today.
Apoc (02:24):
Great man, Good to see you .
Thanks for having me on.
Glad to be here.
NorCal Guy (02:28):
Yeah, it's good to see you too.
I mean, it's been, I feel, likesince New York that I've
actually like seen you.
Apoc (02:36):
Yeah, it's been a while.
Man, time goes fast, or was it?
NorCal Guy (02:40):
Miami.
It could have even been Miami,I don't even know if.
Apoc (02:42):
In Miami in Miami we spent some time together.
I think in New York we may havebriefly seen each other right,
right, right um but Miami wasthe was the big hang at the
house that was so cool and uh,um, it goes fast, dude.
I'm surprised it's Septemberalready and it just feels like
(03:03):
it was just like not very longago that we were in Miami.
NorCal Guy (03:07):
Are you going again this?
Apoc (03:07):
year.
Are you guys doing the samething?
NorCal Guy (03:10):
I'm hoping to go to Miami.
I mean, it's really justdepends on if I can get some
family to come up and stay andwatch the kids while I fly out
there, kids while I fly outthere.
Um, and it's just like rightthere after Thanksgiving, which
is also a hard holiday to uhjuggle around, I know, right
(03:32):
before Christmas, when it's so.
Apoc (03:34):
you know, if you have kids it's super busy, especially but
, yes, but it is the.
It is like, uh, um, I have agreat time in Miami.
It feels a lot more intimateand slow and just um easy to see
everyone.
Yes, compared to new york yeah,oh yeah I'm, I'm hoping to go
(03:56):
and bring all my friends,including you yeah, no, I.
NorCal Guy (03:59):
I like miami much better than new y I will say
that I always have a better timethere.
Apoc (04:07):
Yeah, I mean New York is fun, but I feel like it's
frenetic and a lot of walkingand rushing from place to place
and then shouting at my friendsfor a few minutes before they
disappear and I don't see themagain.
NorCal Guy (04:19):
Yeah, or or shouting at them at one place and then
all right, we got to go to thisnext place and shouting at them
at that next place, Right?
Apoc (04:26):
Right, whereas Miami is just like oh shit, man, I'm just
going to chill here by the poolfor a bit.
You want to play some pool?
You want to go for a swim?
Should we take a walk Like it's?
NorCal Guy (04:35):
really chill yeah.
Apoc (04:37):
Yeah.
NorCal Guy (04:39):
It's nice, all right .
Well all right.
Well, I'll look for you there,bro.
All right, um.
Also marfa in texas.
Oh yeah, november.
That also is because that monthis busy, but I am going to try
and make marfa.
Um also depends on family, uh,or someone being able to watch
the kids and uh.
(04:59):
But yes, that is hopefullygonna happen yeah, yeah.
Apoc (05:04):
well, I'm in the same boat Hoping.
NorCal Guy (05:07):
Hoping it'll happen.
So what were your firstthoughts when you heard about
crypto art, NFTs?
Apoc (05:21):
Interest Um interest I.
I had been looking for an artcommunity for a couple of years
because I was feeling ready toshare my art.
I've made art for many years andnever shared or sold anything
(05:43):
and I because I wanted to justmature a little bit um, which I
can get into, but let's find itready.
And I heard about crypto, artand um.
I heard about it a few timesand by the third time I was, I
(06:03):
was really interested, and so II started learning about it a
few times and by the third timeI was, I was really interested,
and so I I started learningabout it.
I took about six months to likelearn about it and talk to
people and watch videos andstuff.
I didn't know it was happeningon Twitter, so I didn't know
where it was happening, right,um, and finally finally joined,
finally minted in early uh 2021,started hearing about it,
(06:30):
probably not quite a year beforethat, but like eight months
before that, something like that.
I can't remember right.
NorCal Guy (06:40):
So what brought you to art?
How did you choose art?
Apoc (06:46):
So what brought you to art ?
How did you choose art?
I have always been an artist.
I was raised with a very, Iwould say, forward-thinking
household.
I would say forward-thinkinghousehold.
(07:06):
Both my parents were inclinedtowards culture and travel and
ethnic food and things like that.
I grew up in a big city inTexas and my parents were kind
of fringe Not hippies.
(07:28):
They weren't like fringe,fringe, fringe, but they
definitely weren't.
They definitely didn't fit themold and a lot of friends
thought they were weird.
But what that really meant wasthat my sister and I got piano
lessons and got drawing lessonsand took gymnastics and ballet
(07:51):
and had friends from othercountries and went to their
houses to spend the night andeat with their families and got
exposed to different kinds offood, and that we traveled.
And a big part of that was likewe had this set of
encyclopedias and I would justread about art a lot, so my
(08:14):
parents would take me to the artmuseums and so I just got
exposed to it and I just wasraised as if it's a normal part
of humanity.
Um, so much so that when Ithought about what I was going
to do, I didn't even think aboutart as a career.
I, I I didn't really come toart as a career until um I tried
(08:38):
a few other things and realizedit's not my vibe, it's not
where I'm home, yeah and um.
So once I kind of locked intoart when I was a little bit
older, like 19, uh, I just kindof took off from there nice, so
I think what brought, whatbrought me really into art was
(08:59):
just the, the lived experienceof the human experience.
So not reading about it and nothearing about it from teachers,
but like direct experience ofhumanity, whether through music
or through architecture orthrough paintings or through
opera or ballet.
It was like this is where thejuice of being human is.
(09:23):
So that's kind of what got meinto it, yeah.
NorCal Guy (09:28):
So what kind of grunge jobs have you done along
the way to get to where you are?
Apoc (09:38):
So I did some grunge jobs when I was a kid.
When I was a kid, I was pretty,pretty entrepreneurial.
So my friends and I would likepick mistletoe and sell it for
christmas and we would just doanything.
Yeah, um, for adventure and forfun and to make some money.
Um, we didn't really.
(09:59):
I didn't really start thinkingabout starting a business until
much later, but it was likelittle odd jobs and I moved
furniture developing black andwhite and later color prints and
(10:29):
negatives, with the chemicalsand later the machines.
So I kind of learned the oldschool way.
Um, in fact I was that's how,that's kind of how.
I started making serious artwas through photography, okay,
and then went into painting andvideo and digital and music and
all that.
But I had a first career doingsomething completely different.
(10:52):
For 15 years I was kind of acreativity expert in the field
of multi-stakeholdercollaboration.
So I would travel around theworld and create or design and
lead collaboration processesamong leaders of different
(11:15):
organizations or differentsectors or sometimes different
countries, when they were allfacing some kind of social
challenge that was bigger thanany one of them, bigger than any
one organization or sectorcould face.
So I kind of fell into that andlearned a lot about government
(11:42):
and corporate and nonprofitbecause I worked inside all of
those kinds of structures and,uh, ultimately learned that, um,
you know what I, what I reallywanted to accomplish, couldn't
work in that environment.
So I left that career and waskind of scratching my head about
what to do next when crypt artcame along.
NorCal Guy (12:08):
All right, that makes sense.
Yeah, but you've been paintingalong the hallway like in the
background, yeah, so I grew upplaying the piano and drawing
and then got into photography.
Apoc (12:24):
Did photography since I was about 12.
Put that down pretty much whenI was around 20 or 19.
Started getting into paintingand sculpture and video, did
some electronic music.
So I've always beenmultidisciplinary,
(12:46):
interdisciplinary, focused onpainting, starting probably
after college.
Okay, just because it was themost challenging, for sure, I
(13:08):
think it's really hard, it'skind of surprisingly difficult,
and so I figured if I can learnto paint well, then I can learn
to make art in any other medium,because painting is the hardest
(13:29):
.
Now, that may not be true foreveryone I'm not saying it's
universally the hardest, but forme it was the most challenging
and it occurred to me that if Icould learn to paint well, then
I can also carry that competenceacross other media whether it
(13:49):
be digital or sculpture.
I mean, back then there was nosuch thing as digital art or it
was very obscure because, youknow, the programs on computers
were so limited.
But I started doing digital artseriously about 2003, 2001,
even with final cut 7 and andphotoshop and stuff like that.
(14:12):
Um, even before that, actually1998, I had a hacked version of
photoshop that I got on limewire.
Um, you remember that I don'tknow if you have, if a
generation had that, but likeyou could, you could sort of
hack Photoshop and coulddownload it and hack it and get
it, but for a long time the, the, the computers just were slow
(14:38):
and laggy and the internet wasslow.
So I I dabbled in digital artbut didn't really focus there.
I focused on painting for thereasons that I said.
NorCal Guy (14:52):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
So what do you think the bestthings are about web three today
?
Apoc (15:18):
I tend to look at web three in terms of opportunity.
It occurs to me I haven't donethe research, but I'm guessing
that a lot of people in webthree are in their 30s, um, and
uh, so I see a lot of raw, rawraw energy, like we can do this,
we can do anything.
Um, which is typical, which I.
I was like that in my 30sbecause I didn't really get my
ass kicked until my 40s.
Um, because I, I think in my inmy late 30s and 40s, I started
(15:44):
to see my limits, the limits ofmy thinking, the limits of my
understanding, the limits of youknow that kind of energy, so
there's like a mellowing thathappens after that.
But there's also a focusing.
(16:06):
That happens when you can nolonger do everything and you can
only do one thing or one or twothings.
You take one thing and do itwell, and then you get on to the
next thing.
NorCal Guy (16:15):
So I kind of see this burgeoning space of it can.
Apoc (16:20):
We can do anything, we can do everything, and I think,
okay, that will eventuallymellow into kind of all right.
So what are we really doing?
What do we?
really want to do, and there'sso much energy and creativity in
web 3.
There's so much youthfulness inthe positive sense that I'm
(16:40):
hopeful that this burgeoningcreativity can, over time, focus
and, and certain great thingswill, rise to the top and really
help shape culture in our world.
And that's what's most excitingfor me, that's why I'm in it.
I think, um the answer to theanswer to so many social
(17:03):
challenges is strengtheningculture, and strengthening
culture on its own grounds andits own terrain.
Not forcing it to comply to anyideology or any worldview or
any way of thinking, but reallynourishing human minds and the
(17:23):
human soul to become itself,become what it can become, to
grow itself on its own ground.
That is how we build a strongculture when people draw from
their own sources of interestand curiosity about existence
(17:46):
and my theory, dude is that astrong culture can rebalance the
excesses in other domains ofour society so we can rebalance
authoritarian tendencies and wecan rebalance abuses of power
and violence and extraction, youknow, just punishing extraction
(18:11):
of people and resources.
All of these things tend tobalance out when there's a
strong culture, because valuesshift right and we start to
value each other, and we startto value timeless human
experiences, and and then whencultures meet, they, they form a
hybrid they, they, they uh theymix and they blend instead of
(18:36):
fighting and going to war.
So I think web 3 has a role toplay in all that.
If we can really grow theinternet culture to be kind of
independent of ideology and notlike just taking sides red or
blue and not just bickeringamong ourselves, but really grow
(18:59):
the culture, then it can be apositive force in the world.
NorCal Guy (19:05):
So to speak.
Yeah, I could see that for artspace in five years.
Apoc (19:25):
Well, I think a lot can happen in five years.
Five years ago or even you knowif you think about even 10
years ago, so many things werefundamentally different, right?
So we're going through allthese shifts, radical shifts
(20:03):
like this seems like a very opendecade because, at least for
people in my circles, the ColdWar had ended and apartheid had
ended and the 90s were this opendecade.
And then came 9-11.
And kind of a new war narrative, right right that was so
tiresome to live under.
It's so tiresome to live underthis narrative of endless war,
(20:28):
whether it be with the sovietsor with whomever, and so we're
in that again, and it's just astiresome now as it was then.
So I think, when I think aboutNFTs and crypto art, in five
years, I think much of what wevalue today will be completely
irrelevant, because things canshift so fast.
(20:50):
If major war breaks out in theEast or in the Middle East I
mean in Eastern Europe or theMiddle East so many of the
narratives that drive the NFTand crypto art space will just
become absolutely shit-tastinglyirrelevant.
NorCal Guy (21:13):
Yeah.
Apoc (21:14):
Like an ancient past of who gives a fuck about that.
That said, I think there's someartists and some projects that
will endure because they they uhkind of bake in values of
freedom of speech andtransparency and critique and,
(21:35):
um, access, access and digitalart as a medium.
So I again, I see it through anopportunity.
I think the opportunity is herefor artists to say what you
want to say and become relevantin the world.
That's coming because it's it'sgoing to be changing radically,
(21:57):
so so I don't stick with trendsor hype.
I do my thing because I thinkthe message of my work will
become increasingly relevant,and if it doesn't, I'm okay with
that.
But if, but I think it will.
So I expect in five yearsyou're going to have serious
artists still, a lot of peoplehere will still be here making
(22:18):
art because they're serious art.
A lot of collectors will stillbe here, but I also anticipate a
growing seriousness and focus.
I'd like to see and Ianticipate just more serious
dialogue about the art, aboutthemes, about existence, what
we're doing, state of the world,current events.
(22:38):
So I expect it'll become quitea serious and rich and diverse
ecosystem and grow up a littlebit in a positive sense and be
able to, you know, hold seriousdialogues about what's happening
(22:58):
in the world today.
NorCal Guy (23:00):
Yeah.
Apoc (23:01):
I think some of that's starting, but I think we have a
long way to go.
NorCal Guy (23:05):
Right, you kind of touched kind of a little bit on
this, but is there anythingyou'd like to see more of in the
NFT space?
Apoc (23:14):
Yeah, I mean, this question of dialogue is really
close to my heart.
Last year I asked my daughter,Irene, and the two of us flew
down to LA and and invited RobNess and and Patrick Amadon and
(23:46):
Mari to host a dialogue lastyear in Miami in December, and
that was a prototype and it wentfine it was.
It ended up being more of adive bar event, but my goal with
that kind of initiative is tomeet more artists and collectors
and get to know them and focuson what people really care about
(24:07):
, and I anticipate and I hopethat there's more room for that
in digital art, even if it's atthe edges and fringes, like it
has been in traditional art.
There's a lot of hype andstupid stuff that goes on in
(24:34):
contemporary art and traditionalart just trends and just you
know who's popular and butthere's always room for more
inquisitive conversation andthere's artists who show up and
have something to contribute tothat dialogue and that's that's
(24:56):
kind of what I want to see withwith crypto art too, just um
time and space to dig into thework and the the real questions
that artists are bringing intheir work right
I mean, if you look at someonelike Joe Pease or Summer Wagner,
(25:21):
there are some seriousquestions in their art that
they're raising.
I think I raised thosequestions and similar questions.
I can think of a lot of artists.
I think ACK raises greatquestions in his art.
He's a bit tongue-in-cheekabout it, but I think there's a
(25:42):
lot of depth underneath thosehumorous layers.
There's a lot of thinking aboutlife and death and existence
and, uh, I've had some greatconversations in person with you
and others about what.
(26:03):
What drives people.
But that's hard to surface whenwe're on crypto twitter all the
time and and when we gettogether and it's shouting and
quick and fast and you know thatreal depth that artists live
with.
Um doesn't often get to come tothe surface and I I think it
(26:24):
harms the work.
It doesn't.
It doesn't serve the work ifyeah if we artists are just in
isolation, working on our thing,but we don't really get to meet
each other and talk aboutwhat's really driving us and the
questions that really drive usand, conversely, when we do get
that opportunity, thatfertilizes and nourishes the
work.
So I'd like to make room and bepart of those kinds of
(26:47):
inquiries and I think it wouldenrich the space enormously.
NorCal Guy (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, we don't really have anything like that
and it's kind of I mean, yeah,it'd be nice to have something
like that.
I mean kind of like what youdid in miami last year, um, but
outside of that, I mean i't knowif Twitter Spaces is the way
(27:16):
for that, but yeah, I meanTwitter Spaces is pretty good.
Apoc (27:21):
I think if I do again, if I do another thing like we did
last year, I wouldn't do it at adive bar.
In fact, I just have a longlist of things to do, but on my
list of things to do is to tryto do another um.
We called it open form.
Um, to try to do another openform like, but a little bit more
(27:43):
structured, so that it'squieter atmosphere and people
can find the opportunity to diga bit deeper into what really
drives them and and share a bitabout what really drives them,
like cafe style, around smalltables or I don't know.
(28:03):
There's lots of different waysto do this kind of thing.
But yeah, I think it would help.
It would help to tap thetradition of that that's been
established in traditional artand contemporary art Artist
(28:24):
talks, live conversation, peoplesitting on the floor at tables
and talking with each other andlooking at the work and, um, you
know, spending time reallyfocused on it, getting into it
and and not just have loud musicplaying all the time and
parties like that's all good,but I think we could add to our
scene by having that kind ofevent yeah, so I'm curious your
(28:49):
thoughts on supply and additionsand one of ones, and how you
kind of work it all together,your opinion on all that um, uh,
I like the game.
I won't say that I'm great at it, but I like it.
(29:11):
I like to play it.
Um, so I've got a few thingskind of cooking with my
additions nothing, nothing'sgone live yet, but how to um,
burn or do other things withthose additions so that people
can get other work?
Um, I try to keep additioncounts relatively low.
(29:34):
Once I gave out a free editionand for some reason it minted
like 4,000.
But other than that, everythingis under 100.
Yeah, I haven't done anyeditions in a while.
It's something I'd like to domore of.
I started a collection calledthe Art Cards and did some
(29:55):
myself, but did some coolcollaborations with Jake the
D-Gen and Robness and Mitch Tomand I'd like to do some more of
those Art Cards.
I think it's a fun way to engagethe community and work with
other artists, good to get toknow them and hang out.
(30:16):
We launched the influx with anaddition with Click Create,
which ended up being great.
I'm so glad there's 128editions of Carbon Cop out there
.
I think it's a great piece.
I think it's the kind of aspark that starts the whole
(30:40):
story of the influx, and so it'sgreat that it's an addition and
the whole community can kind ofhave that.
Um, I'm not too fussed aboutsupply.
I, I know that there's.
I mean, I appreciate, likeanyone, the financial dimensions
of our game here.
But I all, as an artist and aculture builder, one of my
(31:07):
mantras is there's no such thingas too much great art.
So I've seen some artists whomI know and respect and really
love as friends kind of coachother artists to not overdo it
on supply, and I think there'ssome wisdom there.
Overdo it on supply, and Ithink there's some wisdom there.
(31:28):
But at the same time life goesfast and the years pass and this
is your, this is your chance,right?
So I'm I've had a good,fruitful conversation with
Amadon on this.
We both agree that make as muchart as you can and make
judiciously.
(31:50):
Now I'm about to break my ownrule with that, because the
influx is going to have 333 oneof ones.
But I think that's.
I think that's great.
I think it's great to haverules and then break them and
bend them.
I think that the influx aregoing to be great pieces.
They're going to be canonicalin the APOC world and in five
(32:13):
years that'll be super clearthat you know.
These 333 pieces were veryspecial and unique in the space
and the scene.
So I'm going into this knowingthat not everybody is going to
get that right away.
Right, I've told a fewcollectors and they're like 333,
that's way too many.
(32:34):
And I'm just like you knowthat's not.
Sometimes the vision for theart and the art project clashes
with what collectors think isgood for the numbers Right Right
.
And in that case you just haveto follow.
I follow the good for thenumbers Right, right, and in
that case you just have tofollow.
I follow the vision for the art.
NorCal Guy (32:51):
That makes sense.
That's what you got to do.
You got to stick to you, toyour voice and how you want to
accomplish that ultimately.
Apoc (33:03):
Yeah, I have a mission and a message, and so I design
projects to get that across.
NorCal Guy (33:09):
Yeah, Now.
Apoc (33:09):
I also design projects so that I can feed my family and
make a living and pay off debt,like everybody.
But I tell you dude every ifyou want to do something
substantial, it's going to be arisk.
NorCal Guy (33:27):
The only way you don't take a risk is it's going
to be a risk.
Apoc (33:30):
The only way you don't take a risk is by doing
something that's not substantial.
So making a contribution,making a name for ourselves,
we've had to take risks and inretrospect it looks like like oh
, that wasn't that risky becauseit paid off right but when I
released the 49 meetings, I hadno idea if anybody was going to
(33:53):
be interested.
I had no idea if anyone, ifanyone, was going to buy.
And the same with the additions, the same with the insights and
the burdens and all thesethings that I've done and and
the same is true of influx.
And every time I'm leveling up,every time I'm pushing myself
to my limit.
The influx is an incrediblyambitious, difficult, complex
(34:13):
undertaking.
I can't even the detail and themoving parts here is unlike
anything I've ever seen.
But that's how we grow.
So I'm doing it even if nobody.
I mean God willing.
NorCal Guy (34:36):
I hope people notice and appreciate it, but I'm kind
of going to do it, no matterwhat the outcome is.
Yeah, Do you have a piece ofadvice that you kind of live by,
a mantra that kind of goesthrough your head?
Apoc (34:51):
Yeah, um, I have a few, um , but I thought, about this
question and, um, the one I wantto share is something my dad
told me when I turned 40, Iasked him he he was.
He was about 70.
I said, looking back on yourlife, think back to those years
(35:19):
between when you turned 40 andnow, and what piece of advice
would you give me as I turned 40?
And he said something thatreally struck me.
I'll never forget it.
Um, he said fulfill yourcreative potential, because
(35:42):
that's one thing I did not do,because that's one thing I did
not do and I took this, the roadthat I thought was safer at the
time.
And if I had, if I had to do itagain, I would not have done
that.
I would have taken the creativeroad, because in fact I think
that would have been better onall accounts mm-hmm so I was
(36:06):
already on that path but to getand he's always, he's always
supported me or while I wasalive.
But when I heard that I waslike you know, this is not
something to take lightly.
This is not something that'seasy to do.
This is not something that youcan do later.
You can just wait and kind ofhave fun now and tap your
(36:29):
creative potential later.
It's more like building abuilding or it's like building a
pyramid.
It's like this is not a smalleffort.
This is a monumental effort toto tap your real creative
potential and to realize it.
(36:50):
So, whatever you're doing, ifyou're an artist, like, start
now and take it seriously andyeah, give yourself a lot of
slack and and give yourself alot of room for error, but, like
, do it and learn to strengthenyour resolve and your will so
that you do it above, like,almost above all other things.
(37:16):
I would just have one caveat,which is the other piece of
advice that I received was frommy mentor, who at one point he
point he said, you know,eventually you grow up and you
realize that, um, all the, allthe things that you thought
really mattered mattered lessthan the productive work of
(37:37):
self-transformation.
So it was like he always kindof laughed at me because I was
so ambitious and so full of allthe things that I would do,
because he had lived that lifeand he had finally kind of
matured to a space where he justwanted to do his work and help
(37:59):
other people and he was like,yeah, you know, um, do
everything you can, but you knowwhen, when, when you get to a
certain stage, um, you realizethat you can't tolerate yourself
(38:20):
who you are you don't.
You want to be somethingdifferent.
You want to transform.
All humans want to transform.
All humans want to be somethingelse.
They want to become somethingelse, and that that really
struck me.
We're all trying to transform,we're all trying to be something
else and go through some sortof metamorphosis.
So he was like do it, you know,work on, become who you want to
(38:45):
become and keep going becausethere's no upper limit.
So that's what's been mostsignificant for me.
My life's really focused on myown metamorphosis to become a
creative person in service of mymission.
NorCal Guy (39:03):
Yeah, that's good.
Do you have advice for artistsjoining this space?
Apoc (39:15):
I guess my biggest piece of advice is to play a long game
.
NorCal Guy (39:19):
I mean yeah, you know like, yeah, go ahead.
Yeah, yeah, I think it shoulddefinitely be approached that
way.
Um many have approached it aslike just get as much as you can
extractive, but uh, the longgame, I think, is definitely
(39:41):
where you should focus, I agree.
Apoc (39:50):
Yeah, I mean I was up in the redwoods last week visiting
a farm that does all these coolthings with water and vortexes
and stuff like that, and he tolda story.
The farmer told a story about aridge that used to be covered
with old growth redwoods, likethousands of year old trees,
yeah and some guy came into town, bought the rights and, on
(40:13):
behalf of the logging company,cut down all the old growth like
clear cut the entire ridge 30,40 years ago, because it was
like $2 billion of redwood backthen and then sold the land.
(40:36):
So they come in, they destroythe entire landscape for money
and then they leave other peopleto clean it up.
And I just think, man, that'snot the way.
I think it's tempting to comein and extract everything, but
it's ultimately destructive toself and other and ecosystem and
community.
(40:57):
It's much better to come in andbuild something of value and
it's much harder.
But if you're really joiningthe crypto art space, if I were
mentoring someone who wasjoining the crypto art space Guy
, I would say who are you really?
What do you actually want to do?
(41:18):
And I would point to like 10artists and say look at how
serious they take their work.
That's you.
That's what you need to dowhile you join this space.
If you want to be takenseriously, if you want to really
build something of value, whatare you doing?
Actually, it can be anything.
If you dig deep enough, it'sgoing to be good.
(41:41):
But who are you, aside from thetrend or the hype, or your
insecurities or your desires oryour vanity, your ambition, your
shallow sense of yourself, youridentity, your race, your skin,
your gender, your nationality,like?
Put all that aside, who are youas an individual, and where's
(42:05):
your heart, mind and soul?
And let's unpack that and let'smake that a world, because
that's what other people aregoing to resonate with that's
what's actually going to tap theuniversal right.
NorCal Guy (42:19):
I like that, so kind of switching it up a little bit
.
If you were an animal, whatwould you be and why?
Apoc (42:30):
an eagle okay uh, I would be an eagle because, um, I'd
like to see everything at onceand I I would love to fly.
I think birds fly, for I go tothe beach a lot because I live
near the beach.
The other day I was at the beachand I saw this.
I don't know what a group ofpelicans was called there's
(42:52):
probably a technical name for itbut it was like a bunch of
pelicans flying around and theywere all looking for the
thermals to ride.
They were just up there havingfun and an eagle being able to
see everything at once.
I just think that would be sucha trip like if you could see
clearly and in detail the entireworld uh, so yeah plus, they're
(43:20):
just such they're such coolbirds, so big, and I don't know.
You've probably seen them inperson, right?
NorCal Guy (43:27):
yeah, I mean not up close, but yes, I mean besides
the zoo.
But yeah, I have seen them outin in the wild.
Yeah, out in the wild, and whenyou've seen them out in the
wild, they're otherworldly likea bald eagle or a golden eagle,
I don't care what you seethey're, they're like they're
like griffins, they're likemythical beasts.
Yeah, they are so cool, yeah soif you could live or move
(43:57):
anywhere, where would you liveand why?
Apoc (44:02):
uh, that's a great question.
So for a long, long time Iwanted to live in Europe because
I love the culture of, I justlove the cathedrals and the old
paintings and serious amount ofart there.
But in the last but since COVID, I gave up on that.
(44:23):
I was like you know what Europehas fallen?
Europe is falling and I havesome very close friends and one
of my mentors is in Europe.
He's a freaking genius, thisguy, and of course he saw what
was happening with COVID and hewas like look we're looking to
America to protect freedom ofspeech and mind.
(44:48):
So now I'm pretty happy livingon the west coast.
Um, I want to start the schoolso.
So my family and I are arebuilding a project of starting a
new kind of black mountaincollege.
Black mountain was a school inamerica from 1933 to 1956 in the
(45:11):
hills of north carolina, and itended up being a very
influential art school.
Okay, but they focused oncreativity at the center of all
the disciplines okay, and I'vethought about this for like 30
years, and so now I'm finallyactually got a working group and
got a partner and a fewpartners and a piece of land in
(45:32):
our sights and we're about tostart raising capital for that
and that's out here on the WestCoast.
It's beautiful, it'sotherworldly in terms of the
nature.
It's otherworldly in terms ofthe nature, yeah, um, it's so.
It's so welcoming and socalming to the nerves to be near
the beach or in the redwoods orout on the grassy hills.
(45:54):
It is really, it is really likeTolkien's world, um, you know,
without the snow coveredmountains in the distance, but
you get this endless, thisendless ocean.
Uh, so that's my favorite placeit's just a little further out
than where I live now no, I mean, that makes sense.
NorCal Guy (46:14):
It's beautiful over there, hey yeah it is nice.
So yeah, do you have anyquestions for me?
Apoc (46:23):
yeah, I do um.
So I have a couple questions.
Number one how has your, uh,our education grown in the last
few years?
NorCal Guy (46:43):
uh, you know that's interesting.
Um, I guess it's more likelearning different techniques
from different.
Like when you are I'm not amaster, but when you talk to
someone that it has masteredtheir craft, they can easily
(47:03):
tell like kind of what has goneinto this piece of someone else
or something, um the technicalaspects of it, not necessarily
like the message of the pieceand so to be able to kind of
start to discern like potentialeffort being put in, because
(47:25):
initially in this space there's,you know, people are coming at,
especially in like 21, all thisartists popping up.
Are they legit?
Are they not try and doresearch here and there and then
learning like some technicalbackground of like how it's done
(47:45):
and like that kind of helpswith like figuring out, okay, is
this person good at what theydo?
Um, or is this just like acouple steps beyond tutorial
type of thing, and I guessthat's that applies to maybe
more 3D-ish art or maybepotentially animations, not
(48:09):
necessarily paintingsIdentifying what potentially has
more skill behind it initially,yeah, and my second question
(48:37):
for you is how do you think ofsubstance in art?
Like a message behind the piecetype of thing.
Apoc (48:48):
Yeah, depth substance meaning.
All these are synonyms in thiscontext.
NorCal Guy (48:58):
It's definitely well .
I don't know if it isoverlooked, but it kind of feels
like it's overlooked in thisspace.
It's very, cause this space issuch a what's hot.
The second type of thing Ithink it's great and definitely
(49:19):
I have, you know, passed onpieces that I have haven't liked
the message particularly, orlike something was dark about it
or and I was like, yeah, I'mgonna pass on this because it's
not my thing.
You know that can be someoneelse's thing.
So I think it's good.
(49:40):
I think it's great to have amessage.
I don't know if I'm I won'tnecessarily pass on a piece if
it doesn't have a message.
Apoc (49:51):
I mean, I like aesthetically pleasing things a
lot as well um, so I have athird question for you, but I
want to, I think I want to tellyou about my project first.
NorCal Guy (50:12):
All right, so let's hear about any projects you're
working on, things you'd like todiscuss about your current art
adventures.
Apoc (50:21):
Yeah, yeah, so, um.
So, right now, about to releasechapter two of influx, um,
chapter one is called theorigins.
(50:43):
There are 31 of ones and, um, Ithink something between 18 and
20 I can't remember have beencollected.
So there's 10 more there, soI'm gonna actively start.
I haven't really startedhunting, like looking for
(51:04):
collectors, like asking myexisting collectors to become
stewards or become originscollectors, but, um, the origins
collectors are what I callstewards because they are, um,
they have been so helpful in merealizing this project, so we
(51:24):
released Carbon Cop as anaddition with Click Create a
year ago.
NorCal Guy (51:28):
Yeah.
Apoc (51:29):
And the last year of selling these one-of-ones just
by showing them on Twitter andpeople DM me and we make a deal
and they sell.
They've sold for the first few,sold for around one and most of
them have sold for one and ahalf.
NorCal Guy (51:47):
Yeah.
Apoc (51:50):
And that's what's kept the studio and the family afloat
for the last year.
And so these collectors haveessentially been patrons to keep
the studio afloat.
So I call them stewards becausethey really have been
instrumental in helping realizethis project.
(52:10):
So, number one, I'm going tonow find my last ten stewards,
and the stewards as a whole willreceive a piece from chapter
two.
So every origin from chapterone has a character arc.
And so what I mean by that?
(52:31):
If, like, if you think of, uh,any great story like harry
potter or lord of the rings orshoot, anything in the bible,
like any great story that youcan think of, there's multiple
characters and they havecharacter arcs, they all
experience some kind of conflictand some kind of transformation
, some sort of development, um,or a failure, or or both.
(52:56):
And so we we've kind of thoughtabout influx in the same way,
with this sort of cast ofcharacters who appear in each
chapter in different forms.
So so your piece, for example,seeker, she appears in chapter
(53:23):
two, the ordeal, in another form, and in Chapter 3, the oversoul
, she'll appear in another form.
NorCal Guy (53:39):
So that's what I'm doing right now.
Apoc (53:41):
I'm preparing to launch Chapter 2 and about to start
looking for my last 10 stewards,but the influx as a whole um
began with chapter three, theoversoul okay, which is?
144 one of ones, and I startedmaking them in 2021.
(54:04):
When everyone was talking aboutcommunity and all these 10,000
PFP projects were coming out, Ithought, well, a community isn't
really a community unless itsticks together through thick
and thin.
There has to be something atstake, there has to be something
(54:24):
hard.
NorCal Guy (54:26):
What is a community?
Apoc (54:27):
I started thinking about what is a community, and so I
decided well, I'm just going toI'm actually going to paint a
series of portraits that reflectthis space.
I'm going to make a series ofportraits of people here which I
kind of lost interest in thatand started making a different
kind of series of portraits.
(54:47):
In short, it became this kindof world.
Because I realized as I waspainting them.
By painting I mean physicallypainting.
That's part of my process.
I use the physical paintings asinputs and then I animate the
works digitally.
It's a whole process.
But as I was painting them, Ihad to really think about each
(55:11):
one as a being, with a storyLike is this a human, is this a
god, is this a demon?
Is this some sort of thing thatpossesses?
Is this part of me?
Is this a benevolent force?
And so all these moreexistential, philosophical
questions kind of came alive inthe studio.
(55:32):
And then, three years later,it's 333, one of ones.
And so altogether I think ofthe influx as this world of
(55:55):
beings who are caught up in whatI call the vertical war.
The vertical war is invisiblebecause it's not a horizontal
war like between armies orbetween factions, or between red
and blue or between neighbors.
But all those are horizontalwars because they take place on
the horizontal plane of theground where people walk around.
(56:16):
The vertical war is betweengood and evil, it's between the
archetypal forces of the world,it's between the old gods and
new gods.
It's sort of a spiritual battle.
In my imagination it's the wayI think about life is that
(56:37):
people are kind of caught up ina battle for the future.
So as the pandemic washappening and I saw what I
thought was a bunch of liescoming through the government
and the official media channels,I just saw lie after lie after
(56:58):
lie and I thought it was liesbecause, having worked in the
multi-stakeholder field with allthese organizations, I know
what it takes to get even 10organizations to agree on an
agenda or talking points.
NorCal Guy (57:14):
It takes a year of work.
Apoc (57:15):
Yeah, because every institution in every country and
every hierarchy of people hasits own identity and mission,
and you have people who haveegos and they're there's
infighting.
You don't.
You don't magically gethundreds of countries or
hundreds of organizations toagree something spontaneously.
(57:37):
So I was wondering from thevery beginning, like what the
fuck is going on?
No way to do this without,without plans, so anyway that
was just me, dude.
NorCal Guy (57:50):
I just didn't buy it .
Apoc (57:51):
I was like whatever the fuck this is we're not, we're
not, we're not doing this yeahas a family like no, um, I.
And I tried to tell people likedon't, don't believe the hype,
just wait, just wait.
Whatever this is, I don'tbelieve it's good.
So what flooded my work wasthese pictures of good and evil,
(58:11):
because how does evil work?
Evil?
NorCal Guy (58:15):
works through lies Right Right.
Apoc (58:19):
That's how evil works in the world Lies violence,
corruption, manipulation.
So much of it is lies.
So not to get too philosophicalor spiritual on you, but these
were the thoughts that were inmy mind as I started to influx.
Like, this is what we're seeingin our time is a battle for the
(58:42):
truth and a battle for thefuture and a battle for the mind
.
A battle for the truth and abattle for the future and a
battle for the mind.
And so the vertical war becamekind of a story of humanity
caught up in this battle and youcan think about a lot of
different ways freedom versusauthoritarianism, borders and
(59:05):
migration and war, like I don'tknow.
These are all thoughts that Ithink of.
So these 333 portraits kind ofpicture different beings with
different intentions, sowarlords and mad scientists and
liars and manipulators and justordinary people caught up in it,
(59:27):
people suffering from grief orloss or madness, or also people
breaking through andtransforming and finding joy and
happiness and laughter, andalso beings like sorcerers and
madonnasnas and angels, and justI just let my imagination kind
(59:50):
of run freely, uh-huh, um, andmade this whole cast of
characters, some of whom aresuffering and some of whom are
serving evil, some of whom areconsciously doing good and some
of whom are serving good, andthey're just the whole spectrum.
(01:00:11):
So there's some secrets to theoversaw, which I won't reveal
now, but it is.
I will say there's nothing,there's nothing like it that
exists.
Yet this is.
This is a completely uniqueproject, as far far as I'm aware
, in crypto art.
NorCal Guy (01:00:29):
Yeah, yeah.
Apoc (01:00:31):
Not just because there's so many pieces.
That's part of it, but there'sother things that make it what
it is that no one's done before,so it's fully consuming.
It's fully consuming, it'sfully involving.
I'm so focused making it that Ican't adequately tell the story
(01:00:51):
, so my marketing is terrible.
I mean it's okay when I do it,but it's not what it needs to be
to convey what I've got goingon Right.
NorCal Guy (01:01:06):
Convey what I've got going on.
Apoc (01:01:07):
So that's what I'm working on.
That's what the studio isworking on.
I've got my older daughter ismy main assistant, my younger
daughter sometimes help.
We've hired in other assistantsfrom outside and it's like 10
times more work than I thoughtit would be, but it's really
fucking cool.
NorCal Guy (01:01:25):
I'm really excited about it.
Yeah, 10 times more work than Ithought it would be, but it's.
It's really fucking cool.
I'm really excited about it.
Yeah, no, you definitely.
Um, I guess, since it was ayear ago since we started
talking in, uh, since you didthe job for click, create and
beyond, um, you've definitelyhave a passion about it and a
love for it, and that isdefinitely.
Uh can tell that, yeah.
Apoc (01:01:50):
I just need to spread that passion and love to more people
so that more people are like ohshit, this is so cool.
Um, I'm kind of getting there,but I'm I'm a little bit
understated, I think.
NorCal Guy (01:02:02):
Hmm, sure, just a little bit, but that's all right
.
I mean, that's you, though,that's you, you're authentic.
Yeah, cool, did you haveanother question after that?
Apoc (01:02:19):
So my question, my question for you is um, I want
you to be honest, positive andnegative, like what do you think
and see when you see my workand me?
How does apocalypse fit intoour scene in your mind?
Positive and negative orneutral, just whatever you can
(01:02:41):
share and be honest.
You can always edit later, butI'm genuinely interested in how
you see my studio, because I'mlooking for room, I'm looking
for where I can improvepotentially.
I'm not looking for affirmation, but um, but I'd like to know
(01:03:02):
positive and you know, whatshould I keep doing?
What should I change?
NorCal Guy (01:03:07):
Or what should I improve?
Oh well, I mean, like yourproject is different, definitely
different than anything in thespace currently.
I can't, nothing comes to mindthat's doing something on a
scale that you are doing.
That's, I mean.
(01:03:31):
The hard part is and what andmany struggle with this is
getting that champion multiplechampions on your side to chat
and talk about this project,Because everyone you know has
(01:03:53):
their own thing that they wantto talk about.
And that's the hard part Isgetting the word out.
I don't know if I'm the rightguy to ask, Just because I don't
scroll the timeline much, but Idon't feel like I see your
(01:04:20):
stuff out there very much, To behonest, and I don't know, um,
the best way to change that.
Whether it's reply guying someor not, I don't know, just
(01:04:42):
posting it out there.
I have no idea what the solutionis Getting more involved with
the project, or maybe you know,maybe I'm just throwing this out
there because I have no ideaMaybe there's some artists that
want to contribute characters,their own version of a character
(01:05:04):
, want to contribute characters,their own version of a
character, or maybe you have, Idon't know, some sort of
derivative of this or somethingI don't know.
But then you're expanding it alittle bit, which is not
necessarily a bad thing.
But if you've got more peoplethat want to be a part of this,
(01:05:26):
then it could, you know, grow.
And then you have people thatare your fans, or, or however
you want to call them, stewardsum, to be talking about it more.
Apoc (01:05:45):
Yeah, good Thanks, dude.
Yeah, I've had that feedback alot that people just don't see
the work Friends, people thatfollow and like me and respect
me.
So I'm trying to tweet more andtrying to romance the algorithm
because I think the algorithm mytheory is that the algorithm
(01:06:07):
shows you posts from accountsthat are bigger or the same size
than yours.
So I'm not sure how thealgorithm works just in terms of
follower counts.
I really don't know, but I'vehad a lot of people tell me I
(01:06:30):
just don't see the work.
So I feel like I'm thinking Itweet too much, but I keep
hearing that I'm not tweetingenough or not replying enough or
not doing enough spaces.
NorCal Guy (01:06:46):
So it's good input, thanks well, apoc I, I would
like to just thank you fortelling me about your story,
going in depth a little bitabout yourself and um, learning
more about you, how you got towhere you were and and and
getting this dream out there,this um fulfilling that, and uh,
(01:07:10):
I really appreciate your timetoday and I hope to either see
you in Marfa or Miami this year.
Apoc (01:07:19):
Hey man, thank you.
Thanks for having me on,appreciate your questions and
appreciate um your being asteward and your collecting and
just your friendship andtracking with you these last
couple years and look forward tomore.
NorCal Guy (01:07:32):
NorCalGuy.
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