February 20, 2025 • 30 mins
Join us for an exciting conversation with the incredibly talented digital artist, Hayden Clay, as he shares his journey from a curious child to a full-time digital artist. Listen to Hayden's humorous tale of a memorable encounter with a cuttlefish and his deep appreciation for cultural diversity through food, especially curry. We'll explore the intersection of art and technology, discussing the transformative power of NFTs and how Hayden's experiences in biochemistry and software development have enriched his artistic journey.
Get ready to explore the world through a photographer's lens as we discuss Hayden's passion for photography and how it has revolutionized his view of the world. With a fondness for vibrant global cultures, Hayden talks about his dream of living in places like Hong Kong and California. As Hayden prepares for his upcoming trip to Japan, he shares his excitement about visiting camera shops and the challenges of capturing moments on the move, whether with professional equipment or a smartphone.
The excitement continues as we delve into Hayden's upcoming art show in Seoul, South Korea, set to open on March 29th. Discover the popularity of his suburban art pieces and the challenges collectors face in acquiring them. The conversation highlights our shared love for art and crypto, and wraps up with Hayden's eagerness to meet in New York and indulge in some homemade biscuits. Tune in for an inspiring chat that showcases the intersection of art, technology, and a vibrant community.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Who is this guy?
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy, norcal guy, norcalguy, norcal guy, norcal guy.
Norcal guy, norcal and chillpodcast.
So it's chill time, norcal andchill podcast.
What the fuck?
What the chill NorCal and chillpodcast.
So it's chill time, norcal andShill Podcast.
What the sh what the sh NorCaland Shill Podcast.
So it's Shill time, norcal.
(00:28):
And.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Shill Podcast.
What the sh-, what the?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
sh hey everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome to this episode of NorCal and Shill.
Today we have an engagingepisode with the incredibly
talented Hayden Clay.
The conversation gets personalas Hayden reflects on his
journey from creative kidinfluenced by his dad to
overcoming his reluctance tobecome a dedicated artist.
(00:54):
He shared anecdotes fromvarious jobs he held before
going all in on his passion forart and recalled an amusing
experience with a cuttlefish inan aquarium.
We both geeked out overhardware wallets, nfts and our
love for photography.
In fact, hayden is lookingforward to scoping out camera
shops with his upcoming trip toJapan.
(01:16):
He also shared his appreciationfor the cultural diversity
found in curry and shared thebest advice he's received to
embrace life's messiness.
Thanks to Hayden for joining us, imparting his experiences and
discussing the evolvingrecognition of digital art.
Stick with us for more.
Everybody, please.
(01:38):
Welcome Hayden Clay.
Hey, hayden, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I'm doing great.
Hello, norcal, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Good, good, it's a good day.
Tired, but you know good day,weekend is coming up and I'm
really looking forward to thisweekend, so can't complain.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I love it.
Yeah, it's an exciting time tobe alive and in this space.
But yeah, it's an exciting timeto be alive and in the space.
Everything is up.
Spring is on the horizon.
Nft Paris NFT New York.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I feel like there's just lots of exciting things to
come.
Yeah, for sure, For sure.
I know Paris does look nice.
One day maybe I'll make it tothat event, but the past two
years have not been that day.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, I'd also love to go Feeling a little bit of
FOMO.
I would love to see you wagewar on croissants with your
biscuits.
You know you could show them up.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
But there's always time for that.
True, true, true.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Oh man, so do you have a hardware wallet and use
it?
I do, um, I do the safe threeaddress protocol.
I have my main ledger that Imeant from.
I have another ledger that is acool see-through ledger that I
use as my vault, and I got thespicy hot wallet, metamask.
But uh, yeah, I love, I lovethe ledger.
(03:12):
I feel like I went a while,like when I first started in the
space just having a metamaskand, um, like I look back on
that time with like a, like acringe, and I feel like it was
the wild west.
So, yeah, I do have a ledgerthat's good.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
That's a good setup.
That's uh, I forget what it'scalled like 6529.
Put a name to that protocol,like he called it he calls it
tap.
Tap there, it is okay, tapthere, it is okay, perfect.
(03:51):
So what were your?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
first thoughts when you heard about crypto art and
nfts, yeah, I was excited.
Um, so my first exposure to itwas people and rising and race,
and both of these people are 3dartists and for me that was
doubly exciting because I'm a 3Dartist and so, like, let me
give you the backdrop of sort ofwhat was going on in my mind at
(04:14):
the time.
Like I'm making art and sort oflike trying to find a way to
make a living, and for me, likemost of the way I would make
money off of my own art was byselling prints, and I also
wanted to make animations.
But, like, whenever I wouldmake an animation, I would have
to render it for like 48 hoursand I couldn't sell prints of it
(04:38):
.
So I kind of felt like, is thisfinancially wise for me to do?
Like I'm spending all this timeand I can't really monetize it.
So, right around these thoughtsare going on.
I see nfts starting to make abuzz and I'm like, holy shit,
this seems like a perfect fitfor my art and for animations.
And, yeah, I was.
(04:59):
I was very excited about it.
Like to me it kind of seemedlike there was a cultural shift
happening and digital art wasfinally getting the value that
it deserved.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean I was talking toanother artist kind of about
this, but you know, likephotography is still kind of
shunned a little bit, but likevideo art is like the redheaded
stepchild and they get like norespect.
And he was like yeah, I meanlike you can make limited
(05:33):
edition dvd or like what's goingon, like pre-nfts, and then you
know you have digital scarcitynow, and now you can do that
with these formats that youweren't able to do before and
create things that wasn'tpossible.
It's pretty awesome I agree.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah, there's both a change in, like the technology
and the ways you're able to sellit, but also like the.
I think equally important isthe social value that we place
on these things.
I think that's essentiallywhere value comes from.
Anyway is like what is your,what's the social opinion of it?
So, yeah, like photography,video and other digital artworks
(06:12):
, finally, are perceived asactually having value right it's
huge.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So why did you choose art, or what brought you to art
?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I feel like there has been, um, an inescapable pool.
I think that I don't want tosay that I was destined to be an
artist, but it kind of seemsthat way.
As a kid I was very creativeand imaginative and visual, and
my dad is actually an artist.
(06:48):
He's a watercolor painter andwhen I was first grade, the
first time they ask you what doyou want to be when you grow up,
I would say artist.
But at that point my parentsare, like you can't be an artist
.
Like we know what it's like tobe an artist, your dad is one
and you can't do that.
Like you have to be an engineeror a doctor or a lawyer.
(07:09):
Like you know the the fancyjobs that make parents happy.
So, yeah, I, um, I like reallyenjoyed art as a hobby for for
my entire youth.
Like I was really into makingthings out of clay, sculpting
little creatures and stuff.
I was really into drawing andpainting, but I never really had
(07:30):
like a serious plan to be anartist professionally.
It definitely was like fantasy.
I mean, who doesn't want to bean artist?
But I was on the path to belike an engineer or scientist
and, yeah, it wasn't until I was18 when I got into photography
(07:51):
and I was like, dang, I think Imight actually be able to make
this work.
I got really into it.
It definitely shifted frombeing a hobby to something that
I was putting a lot of time andpassion into.
Like I would say, my pursuitswere were fun and silly
beforehand, but with photographyit got serious and at that
(08:20):
point, like I was still on mypath to be an engineer but I was
spending like all of my freetime on art, kind of just like
hoping that somehow somedaysomething would happen.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And here we are, perfect.
I love that.
Well, what jobs have you donealong the way?
Those gritty jobs or first-timejobs.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, I've had a lot of jobs on this path and none of
them artistic.
So jobs on this path and noneof them artistic, so right.
I worked at, uh, the climbingwall at my university for a long
time.
I was really into climbing andthat's like a very good job to
have in college because I wouldlike be going to the wall anyway
.
So why not get paid, right?
(09:06):
Um, right, I was like anaccount payable, temp data entry
, basically.
Right after graduating collegeI was a CVS pharmacy tech and I
finally got spit on my face inthe very first day, like a sick
lady came in and just spat on myface.
So that was probably thegrittiest job.
(09:31):
And I was a TA a lot in college.
I TA'd for organic chemistry,gen chem and plant science.
I was a biochemistry student,so I was like TAing in all of
the education fields.
That was actually really fun.
So my first serious, real joboutside of college was as a
(09:53):
software developer.
I was an intern at a coupledifferent places and then I
moved to new york, um, to be afull-time software developer and
that was my last job, because acouple of years ago I finally
made the decision to quit thatand do art full time.
(10:14):
So that's a.
It's the overview of my journey, nice.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Wow, impressive.
I like that.
That's good.
That's a good list.
It's a good list.
Um, I'm kind of impressed bythe whole O chem and G chem and
all those chems, cause I wasterrible at those.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well, it's easier to be a TA than it is a student.
There's no one testing you, um,but yeah, like it's, it's a
struggle, um.
But I think a part of why itwas fun for me to be a ta is
because I feel like they arereally hard concepts and classes
and like I viewed it as kind oflike cool, like I will be the
(10:59):
ta that I wish I had.
Like I feel like my ta wasn'tvery helpful and like now I'm
excited to kind of be like, uh,nice and friendly and and
hopefully a good teacher topeople like me a couple years
ago.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
For sure.
Well, that's awesome.
So if you were an animal, whatwould you be?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
and why this is always such a tough question for
me to answer, because I feellike, well, I have an answer,
but I don't have a good reasonfor it.
All right, I want to be acuttlefish, and'm not saying I'm
like like a cuttlefish, I justhad a experience with one.
So at the coney island aquariumin broken okay, there's just
(11:43):
this cuttlefish in a tank and acouple years ago I went in there
and this little guy just swimslike right up to the edge and
looks at me and I looked at himand we just held eye contact for
like 10 minutes.
It was very profound.
I was like, wow, this is suchan amazing creature.
And I was equally amazed andalso like laughing, because if
(12:07):
you look at a cuttlefish,they're very silly looking.
They kind of look like like anavocado wearing a tutu and that
tutu is kind of like ripplingand that's how it propulses
through water and it's got likea Cthulhu face.
So I was just like in awe ofthis creature in the way that it
felt like it was kind ofconnecting with me, kind of
(12:37):
connecting with me.
Um, and years later uh, I thinkprobably a year later I went
there on a date and, um, I feellike the cuttlefish was jealous.
Like I brought this lady to seethe cuttlefish and it was like
hiding, it wasn't coming out anduh, I'm definitely like
crafting a narrative in in myhead, like it was.
It was probably just like thesleeping or something, but in my
mind I'm like this this is thecase.
(12:59):
It was jealous.
This cuttlefish had a profoundconnection with me and is now
jealous.
So, um, they're really coolcreatures.
Um, and right next to thatcuttlefish is a tank of smaller,
more colorful cuttlefish.
They're called flamboyantcuttlefish is a tank of smaller,
more colorful cuttlefish.
They're called flamboyantcuttlefish and they look like,
if you just imagine, like apurple orchid.
They look exactly like that.
It's crazy.
And they're very comical, likethey walk along the seafloor
(13:22):
with their little face tentacles.
It's like a cartoon characterand they also can change their
colors, kind of like chameleons.
They're fascinating.
So I feel like they'reunderappreciated creatures.
Because of this experience withthe cuttlefish, I would love to
join their aquatic society.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's a good one.
I mean, as a person who picksthe octopus, I have a great
appreciation for the cuttlefishand, yeah, they're a cool
creature.
I mean, they're very similar toan octopus, they just swim.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
They're extremely, extremely similar.
I feel like it's like anoctopus, just kind of packaged
into a different shape.
I love them.
What makes you choose anoctopus out of curiosity into a
different shape?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I love them.
What makes you choose octopus?
Out of curiosity, oh uh, I meanpartly because I mean they're
intelligent.
They can hide and like, be likedisguised and just like nah,
I'm just gonna do my own thing,don't want to be seen right now,
and then they'll.
But there also can be likesocial, at least with humans.
It does seem like they'll comeand play and do whatever.
(14:35):
I always wanted one as a petbecause I had a saltwater tank
for a couple years, but I nevergot around to setting one up
specifically for an octopusbecause that's a lot of work,
but yeah they're fascinating.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
They're so cool and the way that they can squeeze
through the smallest of gaps.
I feel like they just have alaundry list of exciting facts
about them.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, it's true.
It's true, they're amazing.
So do you have a favorite food?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, I think it's curry.
That's an umbrella.
Like.
I love all kinds of curries.
I specifically like katsu curry, like it's a Japanese dish
which has Japanese curry andchicken katsu on the side.
I love that.
It's so good.
But I'm also a big fan ofIndian curry.
So that's definitely a safeanswer for me, because I feel
(15:34):
like in the pool of currythere's like many different
cuisines to swim to.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It's true, it's true, there are a lot.
I mean, think about it.
I mean, like there's Thaicurries, you get the yellow or
green or red.
I mean, yeah, you go curry andthen you're just like you're set
for life.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, and I'm a big time getter of curry.
I get it a lot when I go toplaces and I feel like there's
always like a new curry thatI've never seen before.
It's wild, a rainbow of colorsgreen, red, yellow, brown.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's true, it's true.
So what's the best piece ofadvice you've been given, or
like a mantra that you can like,come back to?
That's in your head.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah.
So I definitely received a lotof advice and I think the way to
know if something reallyimpacts you is, like how often
you think about it.
And I think for me I was toldlife is supposed to be messy,
like it's.
It's supposed to be messy andit's pretty generic, but for me,
(16:46):
that comforted me a lot because, like you can fuck up in a lot
of different ways in in life.
In small ways, like you can saysomething you didn't mean to say
like uh, in big ways, you can,like you know, take a job you
shouldn't have or done somethingyou shouldn't have, and I think
(17:07):
like it's helpful to understandthat like making a mistake and
fucking up isn't something thatlike is, is is a bad event.
It's it's like the default,like you should expect it and
it's okay, it's supposed tohappen, and like these mistakes
are kind of funny, like they.
(17:28):
They're kind of what makes lifeinteresting.
I kind of like the spice oflife, yeah, and if you didn't
have them to be kind of boring.
As someone who's kind of like aperfectionist and tries to
optimize a lot of areas of mylife, I find it very helpful to
kind of just be like chill out,it's cool, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
That's fair.
I like that actually.
I mean because then you're notstressing about why it's not
perfect.
Do you have advice for artistscoming to this crypto art space?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
yes, um, I think the big, the big advice is
definitely don't quit your dayjob.
Uh, I think this is a spacethat is super volatile and like
a small percentage of artistswill make any amount of
significant income, especiallyenough to live off of.
(18:25):
But I think like the mostimportant piece of advice for
artists in general is just tolike diversify and to every
possible way you can like.
For me, and I assume many otherartists that are making a
living is like I have manydifferent income streams and
that way I'm not like stressedif I have a couple months
(18:49):
without sales because I havelike the option of freelance, I
have print sales, I havelicensing, I have these
residuals paying for manydifferent income streams.
And I think if you are pressuredto make money off of NFTs
because that's your only incomestream, that's going to be very
(19:09):
stressful and you're probablygoing to come across as very
annoying because you're going tohave to essentially like beg,
like it's your, it's yourlivelihood and you're going to
be having to mint more oftenthan you may want to.
You may be minting like work.
That isn't your best.
I think it it leads you todoing things that you probably
shouldn't do.
I think it's good to beselective and I think it's way
(19:32):
healthier to not rely on, likethis absolute wild west of a new
digital economy.
You know, right, right.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
For sure.
So if you could live or moveanywhere, where would you live
and why?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's a tough one.
Where would you live?
And why that's a tough one.
I'm someone who I kind of havea fantasy of like living, uh,
for a brief period of time, andlike every place like okay, yeah
, yeah but I definitely have afew places that come to mind.
Um, I'm someone that loves likewater and warm weather, so
(20:15):
somewhere tropical, very cool.
I lived in hong kong for sixmonths and I love it there.
Like, I do think about movingback pretty often.
It's probably my favorite placein the world, but I there's
just so much of the world Ihaven't seen like I.
I've literally only been to sandiego.
That's the only part ofcalifornia I've ever been to and
(20:38):
it's only visit anywhere incalifornia.
People are like, oh, you shouldgo check out this spot and it's
like a seven hour drive away.
Like I'm here for two days.
I don't think I can do that.
So, um, as someone who's onlyscratched the surface of
california, like I unlocked kindof like I unlocked 20 more
trips, 20 more towns and citiesI'd like to see, I'd love to
(21:00):
live in California at some point.
Everyone describes it asparadise.
I'm sure you have some strongopinions, mr Norgal, I think.
In summary, I just want to livein a whole bunch of different
places, but Hong Kong has aspecial place in my heart.
(21:21):
Yeah Well, I mean, the goodthing is is you can live in a
lot of places and still getcurry, that's very true, and
yeah Well, the Hong Kongespecially is kind of like a
global melting pot, so it's agood spot to have all the curry
come to you.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So do you have any questions for me?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah.
So I've been seeing like alittle some snippets of you
getting into photography.
I've seen like a couple ofposts of you kind of hanging out
with Ruben Wu and takingpictures.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I would just love to kind oflike get more info on this, like
how is your photographicjourney coming along?
(22:04):
I mean, what inspires you, areyou?
Do you see yourself as like atravel photographer mainly, or
like just how's it going?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
yeah, no, it's good.
It's good, I guess, um.
Yeah, no, it's good, it's good,I, I guess, um I.
I take a lot of pictures of myfamily when I'm at home, so I
don't share those um and when I,you know, and at home I am, at
home I'm not like going outdoing things, so it's mainly
(22:34):
like photos of people, my kids,um.
But when I I do get to traveland do something, then I I don't
.
I enjoy going out and justtaking pictures, like just
walking around by myself andjust, oh, that looks interesting
, take a picture type thing.
Generally, it's more, if it'sinteresting to me, then I'll
(23:07):
snap a shot and that could be,and I don't know if I have like
a favorite subject matter that I, you know, have, I'm just
interested in whatever looksinteresting to me.
I guess, which is kind of weirdto say, because I feel like
some people are like, oh, I dostreet photography, I do
landscape photography, and I'mlike, oh, I'll just try whatever
and just Take pictures of whatlooks cool to me.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, I think both Ruben and I would agree with
that whole boxing yourself intoa specific genre of photography.
It's not always easy and Ididn't really have a good way to
describe my style either, butit's just such a fun medium to
get into.
I'm curious do you feel like itchanged the way that you view
(23:49):
the world getting intophotography?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I mean, sometimes I'll be driving along and I'll
be like I should stop and takethat picture.
You see something and you'relike, oh, that would be a pretty
cool picture.
But do I really want to turnaround right now, or am I late
right now?
So yeah, I definitely noticethings and like, okay, that
(24:17):
would be kind of cool.
Or like, dang it, I don't havemy camera on me right now.
How do I not have a camera?
I'm always carrying a camera onme, but I guess technically I
am.
I have my iPhone, but I'm like,ah, screw that thing.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Totally get you.
I've had so many nightmareswhere I'm like in an exciting
place and I don't have my cameraand it's just funny how like
I've unlocked a new, a new fearor like a new nightmare by
getting into this medium, likelike right now planning a trip
to Japan, and I've already hadtwo nightmares where I get there
and my camera's broken or I'mout of film or something like
(24:57):
that.
Yeah, it's reasonable, becauseif you don't have your camera or
if it breaks unless you have abackup of some sort, then you're
you have to either like buy anew one on the spot, like that's
(25:19):
your only option yeah, and Iwas thinking about that and I
was like you know what, it mighteven be kind of fun to like
have to wander into some coollike local japanese photoshop,
um, and like most of the camerasare japanese anyway, like nikon
and canon, true, all that stuff.
So it couldn't be in the world.
But yeah, definitely doesn'thappen.
Sweet, do you have?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
any other questions?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
um, yeah, I definitely was.
It's.
It's funny.
I was planning on asking youabout the future of the create
and then, just like an hour ago,like this, this bombshell drops
.
So I feel like that was my, myanswer there, but that's very
exciting.
Um, I'm excited to see, like,how that unfolds and I'm excited
to go shopping myself.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Sweet, yeah, no, sweet, yeah, no, um.
And we also got season twolaunching soon, um, for the
beginning of, so I guess nextweek we'll probably be uh,
pounding the streets with thatthat news as well, for season
two starting in march.
But yeah, no, it's going great,man.
Um, this burn PFPs and get artwas a fun thing to kind of put
(26:35):
together.
No one has done it and we hadto get a custom contract made so
we could actually do it.
So, yeah, it's been fun, beeninteresting and I think it's
going to be successful.
I guess you know it doesn'tcost you anything.
You just have to get rid ofsome PFPs that you hate.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I definitely think it's going to be
successful as well.
I also wouldn't be surprised if, like, this paradigm of burning
PFPs for for something elsekind of catches on, because I
almost constantly see like umsort of like down bad posts of
people being like bought thisfor a fuck done.
(27:17):
Now it's worth nothing, like Ican't believe I spent this on
this bored lion dog, like.
I feel like there's a lot ofpeople unhappy with their and it
seems like a good way to kindof like revive them into
something else.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
That's true.
That's true.
Yeah, this is a good way tolike get rid of those and it's
yeah, no, it's gonna be fun.
Well, do you have any projectsthat you'd like to talk about?
Upcoming past, future anything?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
yes, yes.
So lots of extending stuffgoing on right now.
Um, the current project I'mworking on, the suburbs just
finished the end artwork forthat.
Um, oh, only six of those havebeen minted, so you can be on
(28:10):
the lookout for news or theother four.
I feel like the series kind ofkeeps getting better and better.
That's just up to me.
Outside the space, I have a artshow in Seoul, in Korea, on
March 29th.
That's opening and it's goingto be open for six months, so I
(28:32):
will be there for the openingday.
I'm really excited about that.
Um, I think, if there's any,any chance you're near south
korea, it's, it's worth checkingout.
Um, and artworks from thesuburbs will be on display there
.
So very cool, but I'll beworking on that.
And yeah, I think that's thetwo big headlines in my life
(28:56):
right now nice.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Well, that's awesome.
I mean, I've enjoyed the pastsuburbs that you've made.
I don't own all of them,unfortunately, because some
diamond handers are being jerkslike I would be.
But yeah, I want to say thankyou, hayden, for coming on the
(29:21):
show and spending some time withme and letting us all get to
know a little bit about you.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes, likewise, it's always a pleasure chatting with
you a little bit about you.
Yes, likewise, it's always apleasure chatting with you.
It's great to chat art, crypto,the space and everything in
between.
Cannot wait to finally try yourbiscuits and hopefully see you
in New York For sure.
Yeah, it's been a pleasure, deb.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, son, it's been great.
Sweet man, well, well, I'll seeyou soon and you have a good
day.
Thank you, you too.
Who is this guy?
Who is this?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
guy.
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Norcal and chill.
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Who is this guy?
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy.
Norcal guy, norcal guy, norcalguy, norcal guy, norcal guy.
Norcal guy, norcal and chillpodcast.
So it's chill time, norcal andchill podcast.
What the fuck?
What the chill NorCal and chillpodcast.
So it's chill time, norcal andShill Podcast.
What the sh what the sh NorCaland Shill Podcast.
So it's Shill time, norcal.
(00:28):
And.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Shill Podcast.
What the sh-, what the?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
sh hey everyone.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Welcome to this episode of NorCal and Shill.
Today we have an engagingepisode with the incredibly
talented Hayden Clay.
The conversation gets personalas Hayden reflects on his
journey from creative kidinfluenced by his dad to
overcoming his reluctance tobecome a dedicated artist.
(00:54):
He shared anecdotes fromvarious jobs he held before
going all in on his passion forart and recalled an amusing
experience with a cuttlefish inan aquarium.
We both geeked out overhardware wallets, nfts and our
love for photography.
In fact, hayden is lookingforward to scoping out camera
shops with his upcoming trip toJapan.
(01:16):
He also shared his appreciationfor the cultural diversity
found in curry and shared thebest advice he's received to
embrace life's messiness.
Thanks to Hayden for joining us, imparting his experiences and
discussing the evolvingrecognition of digital art.
Stick with us for more.
Everybody, please.
(01:38):
Welcome Hayden Clay.
Hey, hayden, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I'm doing great.
Hello, norcal, how are you?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Good, good, it's a good day.
Tired, but you know good day,weekend is coming up and I'm
really looking forward to thisweekend, so can't complain.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
I love it.
Yeah, it's an exciting time tobe alive and in this space.
But yeah, it's an exciting timeto be alive and in the space.
Everything is up.
Spring is on the horizon.
Nft Paris NFT New York.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I feel like there's just lots of exciting things to
come.
Yeah, for sure, For sure.
I know Paris does look nice.
One day maybe I'll make it tothat event, but the past two
years have not been that day.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yeah, I'd also love to go Feeling a little bit of
FOMO.
I would love to see you wagewar on croissants with your
biscuits.
You know you could show them up.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
But there's always time for that.
True, true, true.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Oh man, so do you have a hardware wallet and use
it?
I do, um, I do the safe threeaddress protocol.
I have my main ledger that Imeant from.
I have another ledger that is acool see-through ledger that I
use as my vault, and I got thespicy hot wallet, metamask.
But uh, yeah, I love, I lovethe ledger.
(03:12):
I feel like I went a while,like when I first started in the
space just having a metamaskand, um, like I look back on
that time with like a, like acringe, and I feel like it was
the wild west.
So, yeah, I do have a ledgerthat's good.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
That's a good setup.
That's uh, I forget what it'scalled like 6529.
Put a name to that protocol,like he called it he calls it
tap.
Tap there, it is okay, tapthere, it is okay, perfect.
(03:51):
So what were your?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
first thoughts when you heard about crypto art and
nfts, yeah, I was excited.
Um, so my first exposure to itwas people and rising and race,
and both of these people are 3dartists and for me that was
doubly exciting because I'm a 3Dartist and so, like, let me
give you the backdrop of sort ofwhat was going on in my mind at
(04:14):
the time.
Like I'm making art and sort oflike trying to find a way to
make a living, and for me, likemost of the way I would make
money off of my own art was byselling prints, and I also
wanted to make animations.
But, like, whenever I wouldmake an animation, I would have
to render it for like 48 hoursand I couldn't sell prints of it
(04:38):
.
So I kind of felt like, is thisfinancially wise for me to do?
Like I'm spending all this timeand I can't really monetize it.
So, right around these thoughtsare going on.
I see nfts starting to make abuzz and I'm like, holy shit,
this seems like a perfect fitfor my art and for animations.
And, yeah, I was.
(04:59):
I was very excited about it.
Like to me it kind of seemedlike there was a cultural shift
happening and digital art wasfinally getting the value that
it deserved.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean I was talking toanother artist kind of about
this, but you know, likephotography is still kind of
shunned a little bit, but likevideo art is like the redheaded
stepchild and they get like norespect.
And he was like yeah, I meanlike you can make limited
(05:33):
edition dvd or like what's goingon, like pre-nfts, and then you
know you have digital scarcitynow, and now you can do that
with these formats that youweren't able to do before and
create things that wasn'tpossible.
It's pretty awesome I agree.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Yeah, there's both a change in, like the technology
and the ways you're able to sellit, but also like the.
I think equally important isthe social value that we place
on these things.
I think that's essentiallywhere value comes from.
Anyway is like what is your,what's the social opinion of it?
So, yeah, like photography,video and other digital artworks
(06:12):
, finally, are perceived asactually having value right it's
huge.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So why did you choose art, or what brought you to art
?
Speaker 1 (06:27):
I feel like there has been, um, an inescapable pool.
I think that I don't want tosay that I was destined to be an
artist, but it kind of seemsthat way.
As a kid I was very creativeand imaginative and visual, and
my dad is actually an artist.
(06:48):
He's a watercolor painter andwhen I was first grade, the
first time they ask you what doyou want to be when you grow up,
I would say artist.
But at that point my parentsare, like you can't be an artist
.
Like we know what it's like tobe an artist, your dad is one
and you can't do that.
Like you have to be an engineeror a doctor or a lawyer.
(07:09):
Like you know the the fancyjobs that make parents happy.
So, yeah, I, um, I like reallyenjoyed art as a hobby for for
my entire youth.
Like I was really into makingthings out of clay, sculpting
little creatures and stuff.
I was really into drawing andpainting, but I never really had
(07:30):
like a serious plan to be anartist professionally.
It definitely was like fantasy.
I mean, who doesn't want to bean artist?
But I was on the path to belike an engineer or scientist
and, yeah, it wasn't until I was18 when I got into photography
(07:51):
and I was like, dang, I think Imight actually be able to make
this work.
I got really into it.
It definitely shifted frombeing a hobby to something that
I was putting a lot of time andpassion into.
Like I would say, my pursuitswere were fun and silly
beforehand, but with photographyit got serious and at that
(08:20):
point, like I was still on mypath to be an engineer but I was
spending like all of my freetime on art, kind of just like
hoping that somehow somedaysomething would happen.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And here we are, perfect.
I love that.
Well, what jobs have you donealong the way?
Those gritty jobs or first-timejobs.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, I've had a lot of jobs on this path and none of
them artistic.
So jobs on this path and noneof them artistic, so right.
I worked at, uh, the climbingwall at my university for a long
time.
I was really into climbing andthat's like a very good job to
have in college because I wouldlike be going to the wall anyway
.
So why not get paid, right?
(09:06):
Um, right, I was like anaccount payable, temp data entry
, basically.
Right after graduating collegeI was a CVS pharmacy tech and I
finally got spit on my face inthe very first day, like a sick
lady came in and just spat on myface.
So that was probably thegrittiest job.
(09:31):
And I was a TA a lot in college.
I TA'd for organic chemistry,gen chem and plant science.
I was a biochemistry student,so I was like TAing in all of
the education fields.
That was actually really fun.
So my first serious, real joboutside of college was as a
(09:53):
software developer.
I was an intern at a coupledifferent places and then I
moved to new york, um, to be afull-time software developer and
that was my last job, because acouple of years ago I finally
made the decision to quit thatand do art full time.
(10:14):
So that's a.
It's the overview of my journey, nice.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Wow, impressive.
I like that.
That's good.
That's a good list.
It's a good list.
Um, I'm kind of impressed bythe whole O chem and G chem and
all those chems, cause I wasterrible at those.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well, it's easier to be a TA than it is a student.
There's no one testing you, um,but yeah, like it's, it's a
struggle, um.
But I think a part of why itwas fun for me to be a ta is
because I feel like they arereally hard concepts and classes
and like I viewed it as kind oflike cool, like I will be the
(10:59):
ta that I wish I had.
Like I feel like my ta wasn'tvery helpful and like now I'm
excited to kind of be like, uh,nice and friendly and and
hopefully a good teacher topeople like me a couple years
ago.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
For sure.
Well, that's awesome.
So if you were an animal, whatwould you be?
Speaker 1 (11:18):
and why this is always such a tough question for
me to answer, because I feellike, well, I have an answer,
but I don't have a good reasonfor it.
All right, I want to be acuttlefish, and'm not saying I'm
like like a cuttlefish, I justhad a experience with one.
So at the coney island aquariumin broken okay, there's just
(11:43):
this cuttlefish in a tank and acouple years ago I went in there
and this little guy just swimslike right up to the edge and
looks at me and I looked at himand we just held eye contact for
like 10 minutes.
It was very profound.
I was like, wow, this is suchan amazing creature.
And I was equally amazed andalso like laughing, because if
(12:07):
you look at a cuttlefish,they're very silly looking.
They kind of look like like anavocado wearing a tutu and that
tutu is kind of like ripplingand that's how it propulses
through water and it's got likea Cthulhu face.
So I was just like in awe ofthis creature in the way that it
felt like it was kind ofconnecting with me, kind of
(12:37):
connecting with me.
Um, and years later uh, I thinkprobably a year later I went
there on a date and, um, I feellike the cuttlefish was jealous.
Like I brought this lady to seethe cuttlefish and it was like
hiding, it wasn't coming out anduh, I'm definitely like
crafting a narrative in in myhead, like it was.
It was probably just like thesleeping or something, but in my
mind I'm like this this is thecase.
(12:59):
It was jealous.
This cuttlefish had a profoundconnection with me and is now
jealous.
So, um, they're really coolcreatures.
Um, and right next to thatcuttlefish is a tank of smaller,
more colorful cuttlefish.
They're called flamboyantcuttlefish is a tank of smaller,
more colorful cuttlefish.
They're called flamboyantcuttlefish and they look like,
if you just imagine, like apurple orchid.
They look exactly like that.
It's crazy.
And they're very comical, likethey walk along the seafloor
(13:22):
with their little face tentacles.
It's like a cartoon characterand they also can change their
colors, kind of like chameleons.
They're fascinating.
So I feel like they'reunderappreciated creatures.
Because of this experience withthe cuttlefish, I would love to
join their aquatic society.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's a good one.
I mean, as a person who picksthe octopus, I have a great
appreciation for the cuttlefishand, yeah, they're a cool
creature.
I mean, they're very similar toan octopus, they just swim.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
They're extremely, extremely similar.
I feel like it's like anoctopus, just kind of packaged
into a different shape.
I love them.
What makes you choose anoctopus out of curiosity into a
different shape?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
I love them.
What makes you choose octopus?
Out of curiosity, oh uh, I meanpartly because I mean they're
intelligent.
They can hide and like, be likedisguised and just like nah,
I'm just gonna do my own thing,don't want to be seen right now,
and then they'll.
But there also can be likesocial, at least with humans.
It does seem like they'll comeand play and do whatever.
(14:35):
I always wanted one as a petbecause I had a saltwater tank
for a couple years, but I nevergot around to setting one up
specifically for an octopusbecause that's a lot of work,
but yeah they're fascinating.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
They're so cool and the way that they can squeeze
through the smallest of gaps.
I feel like they just have alaundry list of exciting facts
about them.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah, it's true.
It's true, they're amazing.
So do you have a favorite food?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Yeah, I think it's curry.
That's an umbrella.
Like.
I love all kinds of curries.
I specifically like katsu curry, like it's a Japanese dish
which has Japanese curry andchicken katsu on the side.
I love that.
It's so good.
But I'm also a big fan ofIndian curry.
So that's definitely a safeanswer for me, because I feel
(15:34):
like in the pool of currythere's like many different
cuisines to swim to.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It's true, it's true, there are a lot.
I mean, think about it.
I mean, like there's Thaicurries, you get the yellow or
green or red.
I mean, yeah, you go curry andthen you're just like you're set
for life.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah, and I'm a big time getter of curry.
I get it a lot when I go toplaces and I feel like there's
always like a new curry thatI've never seen before.
It's wild, a rainbow of colorsgreen, red, yellow, brown.
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's true, it's true.
So what's the best piece ofadvice you've been given, or
like a mantra that you can like,come back to?
That's in your head.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah.
So I definitely received a lotof advice and I think the way to
know if something reallyimpacts you is, like how often
you think about it.
And I think for me I was toldlife is supposed to be messy,
like it's.
It's supposed to be messy andit's pretty generic, but for me,
(16:46):
that comforted me a lot because, like you can fuck up in a lot
of different ways in in life.
In small ways, like you can saysomething you didn't mean to say
like uh, in big ways, you can,like you know, take a job you
shouldn't have or done somethingyou shouldn't have, and I think
(17:07):
like it's helpful to understandthat like making a mistake and
fucking up isn't something thatlike is, is is a bad event.
It's it's like the default,like you should expect it and
it's okay, it's supposed tohappen, and like these mistakes
are kind of funny, like they.
(17:28):
They're kind of what makes lifeinteresting.
I kind of like the spice oflife, yeah, and if you didn't
have them to be kind of boring.
As someone who's kind of like aperfectionist and tries to
optimize a lot of areas of mylife, I find it very helpful to
kind of just be like chill out,it's cool, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
That's fair.
I like that actually.
I mean because then you're notstressing about why it's not
perfect.
Do you have advice for artistscoming to this crypto art space?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
yes, um, I think the big, the big advice is
definitely don't quit your dayjob.
Uh, I think this is a spacethat is super volatile and like
a small percentage of artistswill make any amount of
significant income, especiallyenough to live off of.
(18:25):
But I think like the mostimportant piece of advice for
artists in general is just tolike diversify and to every
possible way you can like.
For me, and I assume many otherartists that are making a
living is like I have manydifferent income streams and
that way I'm not like stressedif I have a couple months
(18:49):
without sales because I havelike the option of freelance, I
have print sales, I havelicensing, I have these
residuals paying for manydifferent income streams.
And I think if you are pressuredto make money off of NFTs
because that's your only incomestream, that's going to be very
(19:09):
stressful and you're probablygoing to come across as very
annoying because you're going tohave to essentially like beg,
like it's your, it's yourlivelihood and you're going to
be having to mint more oftenthan you may want to.
You may be minting like work.
That isn't your best.
I think it it leads you todoing things that you probably
shouldn't do.
I think it's good to beselective and I think it's way
(19:32):
healthier to not rely on, likethis absolute wild west of a new
digital economy.
You know, right, right.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
For sure.
So if you could live or moveanywhere, where would you live
and why?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
That's a tough one.
Where would you live?
And why that's a tough one.
I'm someone who I kind of havea fantasy of like living, uh,
for a brief period of time, andlike every place like okay, yeah
, yeah but I definitely have afew places that come to mind.
Um, I'm someone that loves likewater and warm weather, so
(20:15):
somewhere tropical, very cool.
I lived in hong kong for sixmonths and I love it there.
Like, I do think about movingback pretty often.
It's probably my favorite placein the world, but I there's
just so much of the world Ihaven't seen like I.
I've literally only been to sandiego.
That's the only part ofcalifornia I've ever been to and
(20:38):
it's only visit anywhere incalifornia.
People are like, oh, you shouldgo check out this spot and it's
like a seven hour drive away.
Like I'm here for two days.
I don't think I can do that.
So, um, as someone who's onlyscratched the surface of
california, like I unlocked kindof like I unlocked 20 more
trips, 20 more towns and citiesI'd like to see, I'd love to
(21:00):
live in California at some point.
Everyone describes it asparadise.
I'm sure you have some strongopinions, mr Norgal, I think.
In summary, I just want to livein a whole bunch of different
places, but Hong Kong has aspecial place in my heart.
(21:21):
Yeah Well, I mean, the goodthing is is you can live in a
lot of places and still getcurry, that's very true, and
yeah Well, the Hong Kongespecially is kind of like a
global melting pot, so it's agood spot to have all the curry
come to you.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So do you have any questions for me?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Yeah.
So I've been seeing like alittle some snippets of you
getting into photography.
I've seen like a couple ofposts of you kind of hanging out
with Ruben Wu and takingpictures.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I would just love to kind oflike get more info on this, like
how is your photographicjourney coming along?
(22:04):
I mean, what inspires you, areyou?
Do you see yourself as like atravel photographer mainly, or
like just how's it going?
Speaker 2 (22:12):
yeah, no, it's good.
It's good, I guess, um.
Yeah, no, it's good, it's good,I, I guess, um I.
I take a lot of pictures of myfamily when I'm at home, so I
don't share those um and when I,you know, and at home I am, at
home I'm not like going outdoing things, so it's mainly
(22:34):
like photos of people, my kids,um.
But when I I do get to traveland do something, then I I don't
.
I enjoy going out and justtaking pictures, like just
walking around by myself andjust, oh, that looks interesting
, take a picture type thing.
Generally, it's more, if it'sinteresting to me, then I'll
(23:07):
snap a shot and that could be,and I don't know if I have like
a favorite subject matter that I, you know, have, I'm just
interested in whatever looksinteresting to me.
I guess, which is kind of weirdto say, because I feel like
some people are like, oh, I dostreet photography, I do
landscape photography, and I'mlike, oh, I'll just try whatever
and just Take pictures of whatlooks cool to me.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, I think both Ruben and I would agree with
that whole boxing yourself intoa specific genre of photography.
It's not always easy and Ididn't really have a good way to
describe my style either, butit's just such a fun medium to
get into.
I'm curious do you feel like itchanged the way that you view
(23:49):
the world getting intophotography?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I mean, sometimes I'll be driving along and I'll
be like I should stop and takethat picture.
You see something and you'relike, oh, that would be a pretty
cool picture.
But do I really want to turnaround right now, or am I late
right now?
So yeah, I definitely noticethings and like, okay, that
(24:17):
would be kind of cool.
Or like, dang it, I don't havemy camera on me right now.
How do I not have a camera?
I'm always carrying a camera onme, but I guess technically I
am.
I have my iPhone, but I'm like,ah, screw that thing.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Totally get you.
I've had so many nightmareswhere I'm like in an exciting
place and I don't have my cameraand it's just funny how like
I've unlocked a new, a new fearor like a new nightmare by
getting into this medium, likelike right now planning a trip
to Japan, and I've already hadtwo nightmares where I get there
and my camera's broken or I'mout of film or something like
(24:57):
that.
Yeah, it's reasonable, becauseif you don't have your camera or
if it breaks unless you have abackup of some sort, then you're
you have to either like buy anew one on the spot, like that's
(25:19):
your only option yeah, and Iwas thinking about that and I
was like you know what, it mighteven be kind of fun to like
have to wander into some coollike local japanese photoshop,
um, and like most of the camerasare japanese anyway, like nikon
and canon, true, all that stuff.
So it couldn't be in the world.
But yeah, definitely doesn'thappen.
Sweet, do you have?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
any other questions?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
um, yeah, I definitely was.
It's.
It's funny.
I was planning on asking youabout the future of the create
and then, just like an hour ago,like this, this bombshell drops
.
So I feel like that was my, myanswer there, but that's very
exciting.
Um, I'm excited to see, like,how that unfolds and I'm excited
to go shopping myself.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Sweet, yeah, no, sweet, yeah, no, um.
And we also got season twolaunching soon, um, for the
beginning of, so I guess nextweek we'll probably be uh,
pounding the streets with thatthat news as well, for season
two starting in march.
But yeah, no, it's going great,man.
Um, this burn PFPs and get artwas a fun thing to kind of put
(26:35):
together.
No one has done it and we hadto get a custom contract made so
we could actually do it.
So, yeah, it's been fun, beeninteresting and I think it's
going to be successful.
I guess you know it doesn'tcost you anything.
You just have to get rid ofsome PFPs that you hate.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I definitely think it's going to be
successful as well.
I also wouldn't be surprised if, like, this paradigm of burning
PFPs for for something elsekind of catches on, because I
almost constantly see like umsort of like down bad posts of
people being like bought thisfor a fuck done.
(27:17):
Now it's worth nothing, like Ican't believe I spent this on
this bored lion dog, like.
I feel like there's a lot ofpeople unhappy with their and it
seems like a good way to kindof like revive them into
something else.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
That's true.
That's true.
Yeah, this is a good way tolike get rid of those and it's
yeah, no, it's gonna be fun.
Well, do you have any projectsthat you'd like to talk about?
Upcoming past, future anything?
Speaker 1 (27:50):
yes, yes.
So lots of extending stuffgoing on right now.
Um, the current project I'mworking on, the suburbs just
finished the end artwork forthat.
Um, oh, only six of those havebeen minted, so you can be on
(28:10):
the lookout for news or theother four.
I feel like the series kind ofkeeps getting better and better.
That's just up to me.
Outside the space, I have a artshow in Seoul, in Korea, on
March 29th.
That's opening and it's goingto be open for six months, so I
(28:32):
will be there for the openingday.
I'm really excited about that.
Um, I think, if there's any,any chance you're near south
korea, it's, it's worth checkingout.
Um, and artworks from thesuburbs will be on display there
.
So very cool, but I'll beworking on that.
And yeah, I think that's thetwo big headlines in my life
(28:56):
right now nice.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Well, that's awesome.
I mean, I've enjoyed the pastsuburbs that you've made.
I don't own all of them,unfortunately, because some
diamond handers are being jerkslike I would be.
But yeah, I want to say thankyou, hayden, for coming on the
(29:21):
show and spending some time withme and letting us all get to
know a little bit about you.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes, likewise, it's always a pleasure chatting with
you a little bit about you.
Yes, likewise, it's always apleasure chatting with you.
It's great to chat art, crypto,the space and everything in
between.
Cannot wait to finally try yourbiscuits and hopefully see you
in New York For sure.
Yeah, it's been a pleasure, deb.
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah, son, it's been great.
Sweet man, well, well, I'll seeyou soon and you have a good
day.
Thank you, you too.
Who is this guy?
Who is this?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
guy.
Who is this guy?
Who is this guy?
Norcal and chill.
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