March 25, 2025 • 36 mins
Anthropologist Dimitris Xygalatas said in his book, Rituals: How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living, that rituals often have no physical result when performed. Instead, rituals are symbolic, and perform a very essential function in the roles of community building, cooperation, and trust.
In this Nordic on Tap episode, we delve into the Saint Lucia ritual, which coincides with the old winter solstice date (Dec 13th) on the Julian calendar. What happens during the St. Lucia ritual? Who participates?
Traditionally in Sweden, Lucia was depicted as a blue-eyed, blonde girl with fair skin. However, in modern times, as the population becomes more diverse, the St. Lucia ritual has evolved to reflect a broader range of backgrounds, promoting greater inclusivity. This highlights how traditions can evolve to reflect societal changes while still maintaining their cultural significance.
Join me as we try to make sense of this with Stina Cowan, the Cultural Director at the Swedish Club Northwest, in Seattle, Washington USA. We also listen to 3 traditional and lovely Lucia Day songs associated with the ritual.
See extras and links on our website episode page on Nordic on Tap.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:19):
Welcome to our podcast,featuring interviews, music,
folktales, and lots of hygge.
All with a Nordic flavor.
I'm your host Eric Stavney.
(00:42):
I was looking at the calendar late lastyear when I realized that December 13th
was coming up for Nordics in Scandinaviaor wherever they are around the world.
This is St. Lucia Day, December 13th, whatused to be called the old Winter Solstice,
(01:02):
according to the Julian Calendar.
These days we work with theGregorian calendar, and that's now
celebrated on the 21st of December.
But back then, December 13th wasthe longest night of the year.
That evening was the longest night ofthe year, and that meant that after
that day, after that long night.
(01:24):
The sun was coming back.
Days were getting longer and longerheaded into spring, and on this day,
Swedes classically and those of Swedishheritage and Norwegians, Norwegian
heritage and others classicallycelebrated and do celebrate St.
Lucia Day, which has a ritualthat's performed associated with it.
(01:48):
I know from a book by anthropologist,Demetris Xygalatas that rituals are repetitive,
rigid, and redundant series of actionswhich are performed within a social
group that have symbolic meaning.
That's a mouthful.
What does that mean?
(02:10):
A ritual is repetitive because it'sdone more than once annually every year.
In the case of St. Lucia, since the early19 hundreds, may actually around 1930
in Sweden, and you know, even beforethat in areas down south in Italy from
which the St. Lucia tradition arose.
(02:32):
Rituals are rigid because they'resupposed to be performed in a certain
prescribed way, and they're redundantin that they're done in a certain way
over and over and over again throughthe years in places all over Sweden
and Norway, and across the globe.
Why do we celebrate the St. Lucia pageant?
(02:54):
Why is that a ritual?
What does that do for us?
What do we get out of it?
Has it changed since people immigratedout to various places in the
world, including the United States?
Has it changed in Sweden and Norway?
I. The thing is, a ritual itselfmay not obviously be connected to
(03:15):
the experience that it engenders.
Zy.
Xygalatas has found consistently thatrituals can identify a person, someone
who's a performer of a ritual asbelonging to a certain social group.
Or a culture.
If you can sing a traditional song,perform a dance, complete a ceremony,
(03:36):
for example, that only certain peoplewith common traditions and history
perform that marks you as belongingto something greater than yourself.
It's a cultural marker.
Rituals are done among like-mindedpeople who come to trust each other.
(03:57):
They cooperate with each other.
Doing the ritual reduces anxietybecause it's something that's familiar.
You know where you are, you knowwhere you belong, you are set at ease.
And you know, from from my program,my podcast, especially the one about
(04:18):
the Rosemaled Church, that belonging isan essential human need and rituals.
Foster that idea.
Rituals are very important for humanbeings, and we all have several
be it personal ones or or culturalones that we do with other people.
(04:39):
In the words of Demitris Xygalatas, inhis book, I. I like this book.
Check it out.
Ritual, how seemingly senseless acts makelife worth living on a fundamental level.
Rituals soothe, excite, and unite us,but the world is changing all the time.
(05:05):
What happens when we have a changingclimate or epidemics like COVID?
What about changes in the makeupof people in our community?
Like for example, maybe some folksyou run into speak with an accent or
a different language altogether, orthey have a different skin color, eye
(05:27):
color, hair color, something differentfrom quote, what we're used to seeing,
unquote, whatever that means thatthey're of different sexual orientations.
Different religions andyes, different politics.
So if you think about it, ritualscannot and do not stay the same.
(05:50):
But isn't it oxymoronic to imaginerituals changing when by definition
they're redundant and fixed?
If we change what happens in aritual, is it a ritual anymore?
But we've done this exactly for almostevery cultural ritual you can think of.
(06:12):
And here I was thinking of St.Lucia, Sankta Lucia, December 13th.
Tradition where I live, especiallycelebrated at the Swedish Club of
Seattle or Swedish Club Northwest inSeattle, Washington in the United States.
I thought I should ask an immigrantfrom Sweden what it was like
(06:34):
growing up with a tradition and,and what it means to them now.
So I asked Stina Cowan, what
the St. Lucia pageant ortradition involves and what
its cultural importance was.
Now Stina is the cultural director atSwedish Club Northwest, as she has been
(06:56):
for the last two years, but she's had along career at the National Nordic Museum
as the educational and cultural programsdirector and a public program specialist.
So Stina, welcome to the program.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
So since you were born and raisedin Sweden, you have obviously
(07:19):
special experience and understandingof the St. Lucia ceremony.
You grew up with a, presumably.
Mm-hmm.
And that's where it firstappeared in Scandinavia.
Uh, most distinctivelyafter Italy and down south.
Can you begin or share a little bitabout where you're from, maybe more
specifically, and what you rememberas a child about the St. Louis?
(07:42):
Oh, I grew up in Stockholm or asuburb to Stockholm called Täby.
And as many of you know, thewinters are very dark in Sweden.
And December 13th was thought tobe the darkest day of the year.
We now know it's later, but it's veryclose to the darkest day, and Lucia was.
(08:04):
A tradition that was very, verysacred in both society and schools
and growing up, we would alwaysdo a Lucia procession at home.
My sisters and I, and I was the oldest.
I got to be Lucia and theother two had to be tärnor.
The Lucias, I don't knowhow you say that name.
(08:25):
A candle carry, yeah, yeah.
Tärnor in Swedish.
Uh, and then we would sing to our parentsin the morning and, uh, serve them when
we got a little older, we would servethem Lucia buns and coffee in bed or tea.
They drank tea actually.
Uh, and then you went off to schoolfor, for the next Lucia procession.
(08:49):
Uh, and when I grew up in the seventies,I was born in the sixties, but my
school years were in the seventies.
Everybody did Lucia, everybody, andthere was processions for the parents
and, and at the daycare you had allthe kids or the preschool, the, all the
(09:10):
kids were doing this for the parents.
And Lucia mourning, I. I think it'sstill a little bit like this, but it
used to be, I don't think anybody hada meeting scheduled in the morning on
Lucia because you were always somewhereto look at the Lucia pro session.
Right.
Uh, and then as I gotolder and in high school.
(09:31):
Not everybody did the Lucia, but youhad one for the whole school and there
was a contest who was gonna be Lucia.
I think this has kind of gone to the sidenow because it really turned out to, um.
Be a beauty popularity contest.
Right.
And there was also criticism aroundLucia had to be blonde and blue eyed,
(09:56):
and which also has, that has changed.
But I have very fond memories of.
Doing these Lucia processions,and often, or sometimes they were
done outside, which was beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
Because you had the, you know, the candlesreally lit up the dark mornings and, and
then in high school again, you would, itwas popular to stay up the whole night
(10:24):
between the, the evening of the 12thof December, you stayed up all night.
And then you went and you did aLucia procession for your teacher.
So I remember in high school, mysenior year in high school, we.
Stayed up all night and justtried, and we drank coffee.
(10:45):
We, you know, everythingto get, just keep us awake.
And then we took the train outto where our teacher lived.
Our, we had like a head teacherthat was for, for our, um,
group, uh, class, I guess.
And we sang for him.
In the morning, and then we went back toschool to watch the Lucia procession at
school and promptly fell asleep in ourchairs because we had been up all night.
(11:10):
But those are very, I havefond memories of that.
Was there or is there anythingdone at the city level?
Yes.
So the Nobel Prize.
Is handed out the ceremonies onDecember 10th, which is just three
days before Lucia, and all the pricewinners that are coming in from
(11:35):
all around the world are staying.
I don't know if they're all at the samehotel, but they're staying in hotels
downtown Stockholm, and they are all wokenup that morning by a Lucia procession
that comes in, uh, and sings to them.
And then.
There is always one that is TVand it's usually from either
(11:56):
a church or a music school.
It takes place, often takes placein the church, but it could be
a choir, usually younger people.
For a while the Swedish televisiontried to get creative and they would
go to a daycare and have a cute littlegroup of kids sing, and I don't think
(12:16):
that went over very well because.
People like to have the almostprofessional singing and
the, that whole production.
And I think only people whoreally enjoyed that daycare
was their, those kids' parents.
And maybe not so much the broaderpopulation, but, and you can
watch the, I watch them here.
They, you can watch them on SwedishTV ST play, SVT play, but then.
(12:42):
And I and I, I haven't been in Swedenfor, for Lucia for many years now.
'cause I'm not, I don'tgo home that time of year.
But it used to be whereveryou were pretty much.
Were you in the swimming pool?
Were you in the restaurant?
Were you in a bar?
Were you at the library?
There would be, at one point during theevening, lights would go down and there
(13:05):
would be a Lucia procession coming.
It could be five staff at therestaurant you're at, or it could
be not a big thing in the library.
They would have, obviously don'thave the gowns, but they would have
the light in their hair, you know,like battery driven lights and,
and they would sing in the water.
(13:25):
And I think some of that is still goingon, and it's very, very special to me.
And things have changed in Sweden,and I know because my sister has
kids that are my kids' age, and therewas such shift at some point where
they changed it so that not every.
(13:46):
Like maybe it was in a school this year.
It's the fifth graders that do theLucia procession for everybody.
Not that the first grade is second, third,fourth, do it all for their parents.
They would do one and they would taketurns and maybe it was always the fifth
graders, let's say, or sixth graders.
So since my kids went here, theywent to Swedish school here,
(14:08):
we would do Lucia every year.
So there was a period oftime as my kids and my.
Their cousins grew up in Sweden and mykids here, but my kids did more Lucia
processions than their cousins in Sweden.
Interesting.
Uh, and I think that turned intobe such a hectic day for parents.
And if you had more than onekid, who do you go and watch?
(14:29):
So I think that has kind of.
Streamline things a little bit more,but I would say, say it's still
a, a big day in Sweden for sure.
Now you said it was sacred and soshall we say, in the religious sense,
Christian, or in just very special.
Yes.
So maybe that was a, awrong choice of word.
(14:51):
It can definitely take place in a church.
But with sacred, I meant.
There are things that people inSweden I think would be like, yeah,
I don't need to eat lutefisk anymore.
I don't need to.
Certain things that have been atradition, uh, but I think Lucia
is, Lucia midsummer have very, very.
Strong traditions and people havevery strong feelings around it.
(15:16):
So are you willing to share kindof where, what you feel about it?
They say for rituals, itinvokes that sense of belonging.
'cause it's repeated.
Everyone shares it and it's howyou can tell, but you belong.
What would you say it does for you?
It, it means.
It means a lot and it's really oneof my favorite traditions that I
(15:39):
have gotten to share with communityoutside of the Swedish group.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and I, I feel it.
I feel very much what you talk about,the belonging and the, it evokes very
much a strong feeling of not sentiment.
Yeah.
Sentimental.
Maybe I know exactly what you mean.
I can't exactly describe the feeling,but when I hear those songs, it's.
(16:02):
And transported back to, youknow, childhood memories of
my home country or heritage.
But it's also something I'm very proud of.
So, for instance, when we do it hereat the Swedish Club, this past Lucia.
We did it a couple of days after theactual Lucia day on December 15th.
Mm-hmm.
(16:22):
And I feel such pride that we havea full room, over 200 people are
there and they're not all Swedish,and they get to be part of this.
And I get to share that with peopleand it's very meaningful to me.
Your heritage and what you remember.
And obviously that came across onthe ships to the United States.
(16:42):
Yes.
How do you think it's different here?
Have we modified it?
Do you think that much?
I think this is typical maybe forall immigration experiences, maybe,
is that I think if you go to a Luciaprocession in Sweden, yes, there's
certain songs they will always sing,but you will find much more variations
(17:06):
or new versions or maybe something.
In English or something fun thatwith a twist, things like that.
But I think as an immigrant group,and I think that goes for most
immigrants, is that you kindof cement those old traditions.
You don't wanna.
Make too many changes.
(17:27):
Right.
And so I think the Lucia processionhere is more traditional maybe
than it would be in Sweden.
So I know for instance, the one I sawon TV was they had, um, some gospel
songs in English, and they have sucha long program so they can do both.
And they go on for, I'm sure it'san hour and a half or something.
(17:49):
So they can do a lot of the oldstuff and the newer things, but, and
I think that goes for other thingstoo, that here we think the most
typical Swedish thing is meatballsor herring to eat Swedish pancakes.
Whereas in Sweden, if youpulled what people eat the most.
Tacos might be up very high.
(18:11):
So I think in that way I think we havea, it's a little bit of a different
experience and I think people appreciatethat 'cause that's what they, you
know, remember from back home andthat's what they want to see here.
So I would guess too, you work withwhat you've got and depending on, so for
example, my Sons of Norway Lodge does.
(18:32):
Every year.
Oh, okay.
Uh, and I, I don't know howit's really supposed to go,
they pro process in mm-hmm.
To the song.
You get up on stage and then usuallysomeone comes up to the podium
and just tells the Lucia story.
Mm-hmm.
And, and it can be five to 10 minutesand then they recess and that's it.
(18:56):
So I'm not always sure what, how.
What's the full program?
This might be done differentlyin Norway, but in Sweden.
No one would tell the story aboutLucia because everybody knows.
So it's really the songs.
And the only thing is Lucia andmaybe someone else might read a poem
that could happen in Sweden too.
(19:17):
And sometimes you lightthe Advent candles.
Oh yeah.
But otherwise it's just, um,repertoire of certain songs.
And then you walk into the SaintLucia song and you walk out of,
out with the Saint Lucia song.
So giving a presentation like that.
It's nothing that I haveseen or am familiar with.
(19:38):
Right.
I've even read that Lucia would come downand go out into the town or something.
Oh yeah.
Is that true?
And yeah, so I think definitelythat they would go out.
It would be outside and they would walk.
Definitely there are.
Uh, Lucia processions that do go outside.
I know there's the originalNeapolitan song about a boatman
(20:04):
soliciting people it to that tune.
And then of course it was re rewrittenwith lyrics, and then when it got to
Scandinavia, it was rewritten again.
I don't recall that it isn't.
It really doesn't dwell onLucia, her sacrifice, her
virginity, her the catacombs.
(20:24):
None of that.
It's, it's more about light.
Yes.
Right.
Festival of light.
It's, it's really a festival of light.
I don't remember the story about Lucia nowin detail, but the focus is not on her.
Uh, it is really festival of light.
You probably would recognize theclassic SCIA song, which here
(20:46):
I'm going to play from a YouTubevideo directed by Rosa Rebeka.
It's a group that does this everyyear in the town of Exeter in the
uk, and this group goes aroundtown and sings in various venues.
This particular recording is from2021 by someone in the audience at St.
(21:09):
Michael's Church.
They're watching the Lucia group pass by.
Imagine yourself there in thedark with all these lit candles.
(22:33):
Stina and I then talked a little bitabout the other players in the Santa
Lucia pageants, along with a female, Luciawith a circlet of candles in her hair.
She's wearing a whitegown with a red sash.
She's accompanied by other attendantswho have traditionally been other
girls, as well as a few star boys.
(22:55):
Boys who carry a star on a stickand wear tall pointed hats.
And another thing now when youmentioned Star Boys is that, so we do
the Lucia here at the Swedish Club.
We do with the students from U.W. (University of Washington)and then the Swedish singers.
So we always have, those arekind of, 'cause we never know
(23:15):
how many students we'll get.
Right.
I think we, this year we had 10, whichwas good, but it can be more, can be less.
And then we have the Swedish singers,which are in adult choir who back up.
With their singing voices and itturns, you know, it looks good and
it sounds really good, but we havenot had the star boy hats Yes.
(23:37):
In a few years here just, and it's,which I don't think anybody in Sweden
would even think, but I don't blamethem for seeing, you know, that it
looks too much like Ku Klux Klan.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah.
Or Duns Cap in the good days, right?
Mm-hmm.
The Swedish, the kids can choose tobe, they can be a little Santa too.
(24:00):
So there's, so my son alwayswanted to be the little San, you
know, the gnome
With red clothes and...Almost like tomte?
Yes.
Tomte.
Exactly.
And then there's a special song,Tip, tip, tip, tip, tip tap...
they sing and they surround.
This is a song I've heard called Midnight Räderafter the first words of the song.
(24:22):
This is the one Stinasays is about the tomte.
And by the way, if you don't know whata tomte is, a great introduction to this
little fellow is the podcast in whichI interviewed Dr. Lotta Gavel Adams.
The show is called TheMany Faces of the Tomte.
It's fun to listen to.
(24:44):
Anyway, I found the Exeter singers alsodo sing this song on St. Lucia Day.
Here's them singing in a restauranton their trip around town
(25:06):
[Exeter singers sing 2 verses of Midnat Räder.
Tip, tip, tip, tip, tip, tip, tip.
(25:28):
So typically there's one Lucia,and however that Lucia has
chosen, you know, can vary.
But in the daycare, youngkids, anybody can be Lucia.
So there's usually out ofa group of they're boys and
girls and whoever wants to.
Because it's so cool to wear thatcrown with the electric lights, so
(25:51):
anybody gets to be, they wanna be.
Yeah.
You can see that for ritualsthat are really special.
Mm-hmm.
If you try to change a ritual,people get morally upset.
That's like part of their identity.
And unfortunately there's this overlaynow with immigration and mm-hmm.
Dark skinned members of thepopulation that are as Swedish
(26:14):
or as Norwegian as anybody else.
And there's that racial mm-hmm.
Overlay that unfortunately.
No, you can't change it and we'renot gonna have that person be Lucia.
I, I want to believe, maybe I chooseto believe that that is less an issue.
(26:35):
Now I am sure there are people who feeldifferently, but I've seen, I watch the
program on TV every year and I've seen.
Very many different Lucias.
Fantastic.
Yes.
And again, I'm sure it exists, but Ipersonally don't even think about it
(26:57):
anymore, which I would've done, evenif I thought it was great, I would've.
Thought about it before where I, Icouldn't tell you right now what the Lucia
looked like that was on TV this year.
There you go.
Yeah.
So, and again, not saying that it's thatit's a perfect society by any means.
It's not, but.
I think it's less of an issue now.
(27:18):
Yeah.
I think the big, the big stuffwas 2008, 2010 when the department
stores showed a gender neutral, darkskinned somebody as a Lucia, and it
was social media that went crazy.
Mm. More in Sweden.
(27:38):
In Sweden, but an equalnumber of anti-racists.
Yeah.
And people saying this is, you're being hihypocritical in our egalitarian society.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I'm really thrilled to hear that.
That's nice.
Yeah.
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but maybeit just reflects how I feel myself.
(27:59):
But I'm hoping that it's less than anissue, and I do feel like people who
complain about something like thathas too much time on their hands.
Oh, unfortunately.
Some of the, the haters seem to bereally loud, and you think there's
maybe more of them than there are.
Mm-hmm.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yes.
(28:19):
Trolls on social media.
They make it more, yeah.
Make more.
Um, yeah.
And it is very ironic to me that eventhough we focus on the being the, you
know, ceremonial, ceremonial of lightand the festivities of light, it's
still based on a Sicilian saint who was.
Definitely not blonde and blue eyed.
(28:40):
Right.
Exactly.
What do you know about this otherLussi, the malevolent spirit that flies
around and have you heard this thing?
I have not heard this thing.
So supposedly there's anotherLussi spelled L-U-S-S-I.
Okay.
Who probably came more fromPeg pre-Christian times.
(29:02):
Okay.
And sort of the festivallike kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
It goes way back, right?
Mm-hmm.
Supposedly on that night, and again,that was the solstice back then.
Mm-hmm.
According to the Julian Calendar,animals talked to each other.
Evil spirits flew around, andLussi would come and look down your
chimney and figure out if you wereprepared for Christmas or not.
(29:24):
Oh, how you spun all your thread.
Have you baked all your goodies?
Uh, are you completely ready?
If you're not, and something badmight happen, and that was never
really kind of laid out, butshe makes a perfect boogieman.
Yeah.
Children.
Yeah.
Better behave.
So it sounds like isn't that interesting?
(29:44):
It is interesting.
I've never heard that, but it soundslike a little bit of, maybe not a
mix, but like, isn't that what Santa?
Does he secure naughty or niceand it's about the same time and
maybe those are combined somehow.
I dunno.
Yeah, and I think that the point I thinkwe're we're talking about here is it's not
as if the Lucia ceremony and tradition.
(30:08):
Hasn't changed.
It has.
Oh, yes.
I mean, I what this professorin southern Norway studies, he
seems, says it used to be all men.
Mm-hmm.
Who did the ceremony.
Yeah.
And you go, really?
We've gone from candles tobattery operated lights.
Things have changed.
So it's not like.
If you change a ritual,you kill something.
(30:28):
No, completely.
I, I think you need to be gradualmaybe, but I think something that
doesn't change at all will not survivebecause society changes, people change.
If you don't change certain traditionswith that, it's, they're gonna die out.
I think that's perfect.
That's a great point.
Thank you very much.
Oh, thank you.
I appreciate it.
(30:49):
Yes.
This was so fun.
Thanks for having me.
Here's the Exeter Singers with Nu tändas tusen juleljus.[Exeter Lucia Singers sing Nu tändas tusen juleljus.]
(31:46):
Beautiful, isn't it?
The anthropologist Demetris Xygalatasnotes that a ritual is symbolic
in that it doesn't necessarilyachieve any physical results.
That's true of St. Lucia Day, whichis also the winter solstice or was
(32:07):
a, a day that humans actually havecelebrated since at least 5,000 BCE.
We know this because ancientstructures like Stonehenge in the UK
are built to align with the sunsetor sunrise on the summer and winter
solstices so that it shines throughan opening onto a central stone.
(32:32):
The solstice, the wintersolstice was celebrated there on
Salisbury Plain and other places.
A number of other, uh, placescalled hinges as well, possibly
by thousands of people every year.
What did these ancientpeople accomplish by?
Chanting or singing or observing aceremony as we modern humans do on St.
(32:58):
Lucia Day, the old winter solstice.
Do our actions cause the return ofthe longer days, which we wish for
so much in the middle of winter?
No, they don't accomplish anythingphysically, but as rituals.
Whether the winter Solstice or St. LuciaDay, they bind us together as a community.
(33:24):
We know the words to the songs.
We watch the flickering candles inthe dark, passing by in the solemn
procession, and perhaps we reflecton who we are as individuals and as a
group with common beliefs and values.
Thanks to Stina Coen for talking withus about the Lucia pageant and her
(33:45):
experience with it in Sweden and herein Seattle, Washington in the USA.
Thank you to Rosa Rebeka, who waskind enough to put up these videos of
her group singing around Exeter, asthey seem to have done the last several
years, and they're in the public domain,which allows me to share them with you.
(34:05):
I've mentioned Demetris Xygalatasbook, which I recommend.
Ritual (34:10):
How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living.
You can hear Dr. Xygalatas online in avariety of venues, Ted Talks and such.
He's a great speaker.
I particularly like theHidden Brain podcast
Where he discusses his work withShankar Vedantum, that episode was called,
(34:34):
when I Feel What You Feel 2.0.
Our intro music is Ingeles Waltz,written by and performed by Morton
Alfred Høirup whose website is mortonalfred.com.
He plays together with his verytalented fiddler friend, Ruthie
(34:57):
Dornfeld, who also has a website.
Our outgoing music is writtenand performed by Darryl Jackson
of darryljacksonmusic.com.
That's all one word,D-A-R-R-Y-L-J-A-C-K-S-O-N music.com.
(35:17):
Thanks for going along with us today.
Please drop me an email ifyou've enjoyed the show.
If it brings up any memories foryou, leave a comment on our episode,
website, or, or write me an email.
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that keep the podcast going.
You can click that button onlinecalled Buy Me a Coffee, and I
(35:39):
will thank you directly if yougive me your email address.
I am Eric Stavney. Vi sees neste gang.
We'll see you next time
on Nordic On Tap.[Exit music plays]
Welcome to our podcast,featuring interviews, music,
folktales, and lots of hygge.
All with a Nordic flavor.
I'm your host Eric Stavney.
(00:42):
I was looking at the calendar late lastyear when I realized that December 13th
was coming up for Nordics in Scandinaviaor wherever they are around the world.
This is St. Lucia Day, December 13th, whatused to be called the old Winter Solstice,
(01:02):
according to the Julian Calendar.
These days we work with theGregorian calendar, and that's now
celebrated on the 21st of December.
But back then, December 13th wasthe longest night of the year.
That evening was the longest night ofthe year, and that meant that after
that day, after that long night.
(01:24):
The sun was coming back.
Days were getting longer and longerheaded into spring, and on this day,
Swedes classically and those of Swedishheritage and Norwegians, Norwegian
heritage and others classicallycelebrated and do celebrate St.
Lucia Day, which has a ritualthat's performed associated with it.
(01:48):
I know from a book by anthropologist,Demetris Xygalatas that rituals are repetitive,
rigid, and redundant series of actionswhich are performed within a social
group that have symbolic meaning.
That's a mouthful.
What does that mean?
(02:10):
A ritual is repetitive because it'sdone more than once annually every year.
In the case of St. Lucia, since the early19 hundreds, may actually around 1930
in Sweden, and you know, even beforethat in areas down south in Italy from
which the St. Lucia tradition arose.
(02:32):
Rituals are rigid because they'resupposed to be performed in a certain
prescribed way, and they're redundantin that they're done in a certain way
over and over and over again throughthe years in places all over Sweden
and Norway, and across the globe.
Why do we celebrate the St. Lucia pageant?
(02:54):
Why is that a ritual?
What does that do for us?
What do we get out of it?
Has it changed since people immigratedout to various places in the
world, including the United States?
Has it changed in Sweden and Norway?
I. The thing is, a ritual itselfmay not obviously be connected to
(03:15):
the experience that it engenders.
Zy.
Xygalatas has found consistently thatrituals can identify a person, someone
who's a performer of a ritual asbelonging to a certain social group.
Or a culture.
If you can sing a traditional song,perform a dance, complete a ceremony,
(03:36):
for example, that only certain peoplewith common traditions and history
perform that marks you as belongingto something greater than yourself.
It's a cultural marker.
Rituals are done among like-mindedpeople who come to trust each other.
(03:57):
They cooperate with each other.
Doing the ritual reduces anxietybecause it's something that's familiar.
You know where you are, you knowwhere you belong, you are set at ease.
And you know, from from my program,my podcast, especially the one about
(04:18):
the Rosemaled Church, that belonging isan essential human need and rituals.
Foster that idea.
Rituals are very important for humanbeings, and we all have several
be it personal ones or or culturalones that we do with other people.
(04:39):
In the words of Demitris Xygalatas, inhis book, I. I like this book.
Check it out.
Ritual, how seemingly senseless acts makelife worth living on a fundamental level.
Rituals soothe, excite, and unite us,but the world is changing all the time.
(05:05):
What happens when we have a changingclimate or epidemics like COVID?
What about changes in the makeupof people in our community?
Like for example, maybe some folksyou run into speak with an accent or
a different language altogether, orthey have a different skin color, eye
(05:27):
color, hair color, something differentfrom quote, what we're used to seeing,
unquote, whatever that means thatthey're of different sexual orientations.
Different religions andyes, different politics.
So if you think about it, ritualscannot and do not stay the same.
(05:50):
But isn't it oxymoronic to imaginerituals changing when by definition
they're redundant and fixed?
If we change what happens in aritual, is it a ritual anymore?
But we've done this exactly for almostevery cultural ritual you can think of.
(06:12):
And here I was thinking of St.Lucia, Sankta Lucia, December 13th.
Tradition where I live, especiallycelebrated at the Swedish Club of
Seattle or Swedish Club Northwest inSeattle, Washington in the United States.
I thought I should ask an immigrantfrom Sweden what it was like
(06:34):
growing up with a tradition and,and what it means to them now.
So I asked Stina Cowan, what
the St. Lucia pageant ortradition involves and what
its cultural importance was.
Now Stina is the cultural director atSwedish Club Northwest, as she has been
(06:56):
for the last two years, but she's had along career at the National Nordic Museum
as the educational and cultural programsdirector and a public program specialist.
So Stina, welcome to the program.
Thank you so much.
Thanks for having me.
So since you were born and raisedin Sweden, you have obviously
(07:19):
special experience and understandingof the St. Lucia ceremony.
You grew up with a, presumably.
Mm-hmm.
And that's where it firstappeared in Scandinavia.
Uh, most distinctivelyafter Italy and down south.
Can you begin or share a little bitabout where you're from, maybe more
specifically, and what you rememberas a child about the St. Louis?
(07:42):
Oh, I grew up in Stockholm or asuburb to Stockholm called Täby.
And as many of you know, thewinters are very dark in Sweden.
And December 13th was thought tobe the darkest day of the year.
We now know it's later, but it's veryclose to the darkest day, and Lucia was.
(08:04):
A tradition that was very, verysacred in both society and schools
and growing up, we would alwaysdo a Lucia procession at home.
My sisters and I, and I was the oldest.
I got to be Lucia and theother two had to be tärnor.
The Lucias, I don't knowhow you say that name.
(08:25):
A candle carry, yeah, yeah.
Tärnor in Swedish.
Uh, and then we would sing to our parentsin the morning and, uh, serve them when
we got a little older, we would servethem Lucia buns and coffee in bed or tea.
They drank tea actually.
Uh, and then you went off to schoolfor, for the next Lucia procession.
(08:49):
Uh, and when I grew up in the seventies,I was born in the sixties, but my
school years were in the seventies.
Everybody did Lucia, everybody, andthere was processions for the parents
and, and at the daycare you had allthe kids or the preschool, the, all the
(09:10):
kids were doing this for the parents.
And Lucia mourning, I. I think it'sstill a little bit like this, but it
used to be, I don't think anybody hada meeting scheduled in the morning on
Lucia because you were always somewhereto look at the Lucia pro session.
Right.
Uh, and then as I gotolder and in high school.
(09:31):
Not everybody did the Lucia, but youhad one for the whole school and there
was a contest who was gonna be Lucia.
I think this has kind of gone to the sidenow because it really turned out to, um.
Be a beauty popularity contest.
Right.
And there was also criticism aroundLucia had to be blonde and blue eyed,
(09:56):
and which also has, that has changed.
But I have very fond memories of.
Doing these Lucia processions,and often, or sometimes they were
done outside, which was beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
Because you had the, you know, the candlesreally lit up the dark mornings and, and
then in high school again, you would, itwas popular to stay up the whole night
(10:24):
between the, the evening of the 12thof December, you stayed up all night.
And then you went and you did aLucia procession for your teacher.
So I remember in high school, mysenior year in high school, we.
Stayed up all night and justtried, and we drank coffee.
(10:45):
We, you know, everythingto get, just keep us awake.
And then we took the train outto where our teacher lived.
Our, we had like a head teacherthat was for, for our, um,
group, uh, class, I guess.
And we sang for him.
In the morning, and then we went back toschool to watch the Lucia procession at
school and promptly fell asleep in ourchairs because we had been up all night.
(11:10):
But those are very, I havefond memories of that.
Was there or is there anythingdone at the city level?
Yes.
So the Nobel Prize.
Is handed out the ceremonies onDecember 10th, which is just three
days before Lucia, and all the pricewinners that are coming in from
(11:35):
all around the world are staying.
I don't know if they're all at the samehotel, but they're staying in hotels
downtown Stockholm, and they are all wokenup that morning by a Lucia procession
that comes in, uh, and sings to them.
And then.
There is always one that is TVand it's usually from either
(11:56):
a church or a music school.
It takes place, often takes placein the church, but it could be
a choir, usually younger people.
For a while the Swedish televisiontried to get creative and they would
go to a daycare and have a cute littlegroup of kids sing, and I don't think
(12:16):
that went over very well because.
People like to have the almostprofessional singing and
the, that whole production.
And I think only people whoreally enjoyed that daycare
was their, those kids' parents.
And maybe not so much the broaderpopulation, but, and you can
watch the, I watch them here.
They, you can watch them on SwedishTV ST play, SVT play, but then.
(12:42):
And I and I, I haven't been in Swedenfor, for Lucia for many years now.
'cause I'm not, I don'tgo home that time of year.
But it used to be whereveryou were pretty much.
Were you in the swimming pool?
Were you in the restaurant?
Were you in a bar?
Were you at the library?
There would be, at one point during theevening, lights would go down and there
(13:05):
would be a Lucia procession coming.
It could be five staff at therestaurant you're at, or it could
be not a big thing in the library.
They would have, obviously don'thave the gowns, but they would have
the light in their hair, you know,like battery driven lights and,
and they would sing in the water.
(13:25):
And I think some of that is still goingon, and it's very, very special to me.
And things have changed in Sweden,and I know because my sister has
kids that are my kids' age, and therewas such shift at some point where
they changed it so that not every.
(13:46):
Like maybe it was in a school this year.
It's the fifth graders that do theLucia procession for everybody.
Not that the first grade is second, third,fourth, do it all for their parents.
They would do one and they would taketurns and maybe it was always the fifth
graders, let's say, or sixth graders.
So since my kids went here, theywent to Swedish school here,
(14:08):
we would do Lucia every year.
So there was a period oftime as my kids and my.
Their cousins grew up in Sweden and mykids here, but my kids did more Lucia
processions than their cousins in Sweden.
Interesting.
Uh, and I think that turned intobe such a hectic day for parents.
And if you had more than onekid, who do you go and watch?
(14:29):
So I think that has kind of.
Streamline things a little bit more,but I would say, say it's still
a, a big day in Sweden for sure.
Now you said it was sacred and soshall we say, in the religious sense,
Christian, or in just very special.
Yes.
So maybe that was a, awrong choice of word.
(14:51):
It can definitely take place in a church.
But with sacred, I meant.
There are things that people inSweden I think would be like, yeah,
I don't need to eat lutefisk anymore.
I don't need to.
Certain things that have been atradition, uh, but I think Lucia
is, Lucia midsummer have very, very.
Strong traditions and people havevery strong feelings around it.
(15:16):
So are you willing to share kindof where, what you feel about it?
They say for rituals, itinvokes that sense of belonging.
'cause it's repeated.
Everyone shares it and it's howyou can tell, but you belong.
What would you say it does for you?
It, it means.
It means a lot and it's really oneof my favorite traditions that I
(15:39):
have gotten to share with communityoutside of the Swedish group.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and I, I feel it.
I feel very much what you talk about,the belonging and the, it evokes very
much a strong feeling of not sentiment.
Yeah.
Sentimental.
Maybe I know exactly what you mean.
I can't exactly describe the feeling,but when I hear those songs, it's.
(16:02):
And transported back to, youknow, childhood memories of
my home country or heritage.
But it's also something I'm very proud of.
So, for instance, when we do it hereat the Swedish Club, this past Lucia.
We did it a couple of days after theactual Lucia day on December 15th.
Mm-hmm.
(16:22):
And I feel such pride that we havea full room, over 200 people are
there and they're not all Swedish,and they get to be part of this.
And I get to share that with peopleand it's very meaningful to me.
Your heritage and what you remember.
And obviously that came across onthe ships to the United States.
(16:42):
Yes.
How do you think it's different here?
Have we modified it?
Do you think that much?
I think this is typical maybe forall immigration experiences, maybe,
is that I think if you go to a Luciaprocession in Sweden, yes, there's
certain songs they will always sing,but you will find much more variations
(17:06):
or new versions or maybe something.
In English or something fun thatwith a twist, things like that.
But I think as an immigrant group,and I think that goes for most
immigrants, is that you kindof cement those old traditions.
You don't wanna.
Make too many changes.
(17:27):
Right.
And so I think the Lucia processionhere is more traditional maybe
than it would be in Sweden.
So I know for instance, the one I sawon TV was they had, um, some gospel
songs in English, and they have sucha long program so they can do both.
And they go on for, I'm sure it'san hour and a half or something.
(17:49):
So they can do a lot of the oldstuff and the newer things, but, and
I think that goes for other thingstoo, that here we think the most
typical Swedish thing is meatballsor herring to eat Swedish pancakes.
Whereas in Sweden, if youpulled what people eat the most.
Tacos might be up very high.
(18:11):
So I think in that way I think we havea, it's a little bit of a different
experience and I think people appreciatethat 'cause that's what they, you
know, remember from back home andthat's what they want to see here.
So I would guess too, you work withwhat you've got and depending on, so for
example, my Sons of Norway Lodge does.
(18:32):
Every year.
Oh, okay.
Uh, and I, I don't know howit's really supposed to go,
they pro process in mm-hmm.
To the song.
You get up on stage and then usuallysomeone comes up to the podium
and just tells the Lucia story.
Mm-hmm.
And, and it can be five to 10 minutesand then they recess and that's it.
(18:56):
So I'm not always sure what, how.
What's the full program?
This might be done differentlyin Norway, but in Sweden.
No one would tell the story aboutLucia because everybody knows.
So it's really the songs.
And the only thing is Lucia andmaybe someone else might read a poem
that could happen in Sweden too.
(19:17):
And sometimes you lightthe Advent candles.
Oh yeah.
But otherwise it's just, um,repertoire of certain songs.
And then you walk into the SaintLucia song and you walk out of,
out with the Saint Lucia song.
So giving a presentation like that.
It's nothing that I haveseen or am familiar with.
(19:38):
Right.
I've even read that Lucia would come downand go out into the town or something.
Oh yeah.
Is that true?
And yeah, so I think definitelythat they would go out.
It would be outside and they would walk.
Definitely there are.
Uh, Lucia processions that do go outside.
I know there's the originalNeapolitan song about a boatman
(20:04):
soliciting people it to that tune.
And then of course it was re rewrittenwith lyrics, and then when it got to
Scandinavia, it was rewritten again.
I don't recall that it isn't.
It really doesn't dwell onLucia, her sacrifice, her
virginity, her the catacombs.
(20:24):
None of that.
It's, it's more about light.
Yes.
Right.
Festival of light.
It's, it's really a festival of light.
I don't remember the story about Lucia nowin detail, but the focus is not on her.
Uh, it is really festival of light.
You probably would recognize theclassic SCIA song, which here
(20:46):
I'm going to play from a YouTubevideo directed by Rosa Rebeka.
It's a group that does this everyyear in the town of Exeter in the
uk, and this group goes aroundtown and sings in various venues.
This particular recording is from2021 by someone in the audience at St.
(21:09):
Michael's Church.
They're watching the Lucia group pass by.
Imagine yourself there in thedark with all these lit candles.
(22:33):
Stina and I then talked a little bitabout the other players in the Santa
Lucia pageants, along with a female, Luciawith a circlet of candles in her hair.
She's wearing a whitegown with a red sash.
She's accompanied by other attendantswho have traditionally been other
girls, as well as a few star boys.
(22:55):
Boys who carry a star on a stickand wear tall pointed hats.
And another thing now when youmentioned Star Boys is that, so we do
the Lucia here at the Swedish Club.
We do with the students from U.W. (University of Washington)and then the Swedish singers.
So we always have, those arekind of, 'cause we never know
(23:15):
how many students we'll get.
Right.
I think we, this year we had 10, whichwas good, but it can be more, can be less.
And then we have the Swedish singers,which are in adult choir who back up.
With their singing voices and itturns, you know, it looks good and
it sounds really good, but we havenot had the star boy hats Yes.
(23:37):
In a few years here just, and it's,which I don't think anybody in Sweden
would even think, but I don't blamethem for seeing, you know, that it
looks too much like Ku Klux Klan.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah.
Or Duns Cap in the good days, right?
Mm-hmm.
The Swedish, the kids can choose tobe, they can be a little Santa too.
(24:00):
So there's, so my son alwayswanted to be the little San, you
know, the gnome
With red clothes and...Almost like tomte?
Yes.
Tomte.
Exactly.
And then there's a special song,Tip, tip, tip, tip, tip tap...
they sing and they surround.
This is a song I've heard called Midnight Räderafter the first words of the song.
(24:22):
This is the one Stinasays is about the tomte.
And by the way, if you don't know whata tomte is, a great introduction to this
little fellow is the podcast in whichI interviewed Dr. Lotta Gavel Adams.
The show is called TheMany Faces of the Tomte.
It's fun to listen to.
(24:44):
Anyway, I found the Exeter singers alsodo sing this song on St. Lucia Day.
Here's them singing in a restauranton their trip around town
(25:06):
[Exeter singers sing 2 verses of Midnat Räder.
Tip, tip, tip, tip, tip, tip, tip.
(25:28):
So typically there's one Lucia,and however that Lucia has
chosen, you know, can vary.
But in the daycare, youngkids, anybody can be Lucia.
So there's usually out ofa group of they're boys and
girls and whoever wants to.
Because it's so cool to wear thatcrown with the electric lights, so
(25:51):
anybody gets to be, they wanna be.
Yeah.
You can see that for ritualsthat are really special.
Mm-hmm.
If you try to change a ritual,people get morally upset.
That's like part of their identity.
And unfortunately there's this overlaynow with immigration and mm-hmm.
Dark skinned members of thepopulation that are as Swedish
(26:14):
or as Norwegian as anybody else.
And there's that racial mm-hmm.
Overlay that unfortunately.
No, you can't change it and we'renot gonna have that person be Lucia.
I, I want to believe, maybe I chooseto believe that that is less an issue.
(26:35):
Now I am sure there are people who feeldifferently, but I've seen, I watch the
program on TV every year and I've seen.
Very many different Lucias.
Fantastic.
Yes.
And again, I'm sure it exists, but Ipersonally don't even think about it
(26:57):
anymore, which I would've done, evenif I thought it was great, I would've.
Thought about it before where I, Icouldn't tell you right now what the Lucia
looked like that was on TV this year.
There you go.
Yeah.
So, and again, not saying that it's thatit's a perfect society by any means.
It's not, but.
I think it's less of an issue now.
(27:18):
Yeah.
I think the big, the big stuffwas 2008, 2010 when the department
stores showed a gender neutral, darkskinned somebody as a Lucia, and it
was social media that went crazy.
Mm. More in Sweden.
(27:38):
In Sweden, but an equalnumber of anti-racists.
Yeah.
And people saying this is, you're being hihypocritical in our egalitarian society.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, I'm really thrilled to hear that.
That's nice.
Yeah.
Maybe it's wishful thinking, but maybeit just reflects how I feel myself.
(27:59):
But I'm hoping that it's less than anissue, and I do feel like people who
complain about something like thathas too much time on their hands.
Oh, unfortunately.
Some of the, the haters seem to bereally loud, and you think there's
maybe more of them than there are.
Mm-hmm.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yes.
(28:19):
Trolls on social media.
They make it more, yeah.
Make more.
Um, yeah.
And it is very ironic to me that eventhough we focus on the being the, you
know, ceremonial, ceremonial of lightand the festivities of light, it's
still based on a Sicilian saint who was.
Definitely not blonde and blue eyed.
(28:40):
Right.
Exactly.
What do you know about this otherLussi, the malevolent spirit that flies
around and have you heard this thing?
I have not heard this thing.
So supposedly there's anotherLussi spelled L-U-S-S-I.
Okay.
Who probably came more fromPeg pre-Christian times.
(29:02):
Okay.
And sort of the festivallike kind of thing.
Mm-hmm.
It goes way back, right?
Mm-hmm.
Supposedly on that night, and again,that was the solstice back then.
Mm-hmm.
According to the Julian Calendar,animals talked to each other.
Evil spirits flew around, andLussi would come and look down your
chimney and figure out if you wereprepared for Christmas or not.
(29:24):
Oh, how you spun all your thread.
Have you baked all your goodies?
Uh, are you completely ready?
If you're not, and something badmight happen, and that was never
really kind of laid out, butshe makes a perfect boogieman.
Yeah.
Children.
Yeah.
Better behave.
So it sounds like isn't that interesting?
(29:44):
It is interesting.
I've never heard that, but it soundslike a little bit of, maybe not a
mix, but like, isn't that what Santa?
Does he secure naughty or niceand it's about the same time and
maybe those are combined somehow.
I dunno.
Yeah, and I think that the point I thinkwe're we're talking about here is it's not
as if the Lucia ceremony and tradition.
(30:08):
Hasn't changed.
It has.
Oh, yes.
I mean, I what this professorin southern Norway studies, he
seems, says it used to be all men.
Mm-hmm.
Who did the ceremony.
Yeah.
And you go, really?
We've gone from candles tobattery operated lights.
Things have changed.
So it's not like.
If you change a ritual,you kill something.
(30:28):
No, completely.
I, I think you need to be gradualmaybe, but I think something that
doesn't change at all will not survivebecause society changes, people change.
If you don't change certain traditionswith that, it's, they're gonna die out.
I think that's perfect.
That's a great point.
Thank you very much.
Oh, thank you.
I appreciate it.
(30:49):
Yes.
This was so fun.
Thanks for having me.
Here's the Exeter Singers with Nu tändas tusen juleljus.[Exeter Lucia Singers sing Nu tändas tusen juleljus.]
(31:46):
Beautiful, isn't it?
The anthropologist Demetris Xygalatasnotes that a ritual is symbolic
in that it doesn't necessarilyachieve any physical results.
That's true of St. Lucia Day, whichis also the winter solstice or was
(32:07):
a, a day that humans actually havecelebrated since at least 5,000 BCE.
We know this because ancientstructures like Stonehenge in the UK
are built to align with the sunsetor sunrise on the summer and winter
solstices so that it shines throughan opening onto a central stone.
(32:32):
The solstice, the wintersolstice was celebrated there on
Salisbury Plain and other places.
A number of other, uh, placescalled hinges as well, possibly
by thousands of people every year.
What did these ancientpeople accomplish by?
Chanting or singing or observing aceremony as we modern humans do on St.
(32:58):
Lucia Day, the old winter solstice.
Do our actions cause the return ofthe longer days, which we wish for
so much in the middle of winter?
No, they don't accomplish anythingphysically, but as rituals.
Whether the winter Solstice or St. LuciaDay, they bind us together as a community.
(33:24):
We know the words to the songs.
We watch the flickering candles inthe dark, passing by in the solemn
procession, and perhaps we reflecton who we are as individuals and as a
group with common beliefs and values.
Thanks to Stina Coen for talking withus about the Lucia pageant and her
(33:45):
experience with it in Sweden and herein Seattle, Washington in the USA.
Thank you to Rosa Rebeka, who waskind enough to put up these videos of
her group singing around Exeter, asthey seem to have done the last several
years, and they're in the public domain,which allows me to share them with you.
(34:05):
I've mentioned Demetris Xygalatasbook, which I recommend.
Ritual (34:10):
How Seemingly Senseless Acts Make Life Worth Living.
You can hear Dr. Xygalatas online in avariety of venues, Ted Talks and such.
He's a great speaker.
I particularly like theHidden Brain podcast
Where he discusses his work withShankar Vedantum, that episode was called,
(34:34):
when I Feel What You Feel 2.0.
Our intro music is Ingeles Waltz,written by and performed by Morton
Alfred Høirup whose website is mortonalfred.com.
He plays together with his verytalented fiddler friend, Ruthie
(34:57):
Dornfeld, who also has a website.
Our outgoing music is writtenand performed by Darryl Jackson
of darryljacksonmusic.com.
That's all one word,D-A-R-R-Y-L-J-A-C-K-S-O-N music.com.
(35:17):
Thanks for going along with us today.
Please drop me an email ifyou've enjoyed the show.
If it brings up any memories foryou, leave a comment on our episode,
website, or, or write me an email.
I always love hearing fromyou donations too, of course,
that keep the podcast going.
You can click that button onlinecalled Buy Me a Coffee, and I
(35:39):
will thank you directly if yougive me your email address.
I am Eric Stavney. Vi sees neste gang.
We'll see you next time
on Nordic On Tap.[Exit music plays]
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