October 26, 2022 • 29 mins
The North GA Blue: Getting into Good Trouble podcast covers democratic politics in North GA, the 9th Congressional District, and across the state of Georgia. The podcast is in Q&A/Interview format with various democratic politicos including county chairs, democratic operatives, politicians, and more. It is our mission to deliver crucial information to our listeners in a timely manner as we fight for community values and principles in the 3rd most Conservative district in the state. Our website is: https://www.fcdpga.com/podcasts
Our guests highlight democratic activities and actions to work toward a Blue Georgia. The 9th Congressional District spans 20 counties across the region and covers a good deal of northern GA including Blue Ridge, Morganton, Fannin, Union, Banks, Athens/Clarke, Dawson, Elbert, Forsyth, Franklin, Gilmer, Habersham, Hall, Hart, Jackson, Lumpkin, Madison, Pickens, Rabun, Stephens, Towns, and White counties.
Our democratic party podcast also disseminates information and interviews powerful Democrats across the state of GA working to overthrow the suppression tactics of the GOP and ensure democracy and our values, grassroots efforts, and goals remain intact.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Meral Clarke (00:17):
Hello and welcome back to the North Georgia Blue
Podcast produced and distributedby the Fannin County Democratic
Party. I'm your host MeralClarke and we're getting into
some good trouble today with ourguest, Charlie Hayslett former
AJC political reporter andcurrent urban rural political
(00:38):
blogger. Welcome to the show,Charlie. We're happy you're
here.
Charlie Hayslett (00:42):
Appreciate the opportunity to be here. Glad to
be with you.
Meral Clarke (00:44):
Wonderful. We're glad you're here. And let's let
our listeners know a little bitabout you. Charlie is an award
winning journalist speechwriterand public relations counselor.
After officially retiring at theend of 2017, he began devoting
most of his time to researchingand writing a nonfiction book
that he describes as being aboutthe costs and consequences of
(01:08):
Georgia's widening urban ruraldivide. The book is tentatively
titled Trouble in God's countryand he maintains a blog by the
same name at Trouble in God'scountry.com. The blog was
originally intended as a parkingplace for working draft
material, but over time, it hasattracted a following and had an
(01:29):
impact on the development ofpublic policy to address the
challenges confronting Georgia'srural communities. Hayslett's
blog has been credited by theoriginal co chairs of the
Georgia House Rural DevelopmentCouncil with triggering the
creation of that body in 2017.
And Hayslett presented thatgroup at its opening session in
2017, and again in 2021. Hiswork has been published or cited
(01:55):
in publications from coast tocoast from the Washington Post
to the Sacramento Bee, the AJC's daily jolt column regularly
references his research and hasreferred to his blog as quote an
unrelenting avalanche of factsand figures and to him as quote
one of the smartest thinkersaround on the growing divide
(02:18):
between Metro Atlanta and therest of the state end quote. He
began his working life as anewspaper journalist covering
government and politics for theAtlanta Journal in Atlanta and
Washington. He is a native ofColumbus, Mississippi, and holds
a bachelor's degree from theUniversity of Georgia's Grady
College of Journalism and MassCommunications. In 2008, he was
(02:41):
named to the inaugural class ofthe college's Grady fellowship
and served for several years onthe College's Board of Trustees.
He is also a former member ofthe Board of Directors of
Georgians for a healthy future.
Well, you've been a busy guy,Charlie, you've done quite a bit
(03:03):
over the years. So let's diveright in and talk about your
blog and your upcoming book.
What's going on with the urbanrural divide? What is it? How
does it affect us specifically,as it relates to our politics
and elections?
Charlie Hayslett (03:18):
Sure. And let me take just a minute and talk
about how I got started on this.
And that was a little over adecade ago, I was pulled into a
project related to the state'spublic health system. And very
long story short, we settled ona messaging strategy that was
aimed at demonstrating therelationship between community
health and economic vitality ata local level, and county levels
(03:40):
specifically, and I knewgenerally what to expect from
the research. But we did a tonof research pull together a lot
of data. And frankly, I wasblown away by the extent of the
divide. That was apparent eventhen, and I began talking to
some people on you in thepolitical world in the business
world about it, and that Ithought it was a bigger problem
(04:00):
than the state appreciated andgot a bunch of blank stares. As
I was edging toward retirement,I thought there's a book in
this. And I think it's a bigdeal. So I started as we used to
say, in the newspaper business,gathering yarn, and pulling
together threads of information.
And I decided the only way orthe best way to tell the story
was with data. And when Istarted, I thought I can do this
(04:23):
in about two years. I can pinsix months on the data research
and six months out traveling thestate and six months writing and
then six months cleaning it up,and I'll be done. And that was a
decade ago. And the truth is,that's turned out to be a good
thing because every time I thinkI'm getting close to being done,
some new bucket of data willcome over the transom and I'll
(04:44):
feel obligated to fold it intowhat I'm doing. Every time I've
done that it's demonstrated thatthe economic divide the public
health divide, the educationalachievement divide continues to
get wider and wider. And it'salmost as though I've had a
front row seat in somethingapproaching in real time to the
way this chasm has beendeveloping, and politics is very
(05:04):
much part of it, the stateobviously has divided
politically, it's now regardedas something very close to a
5050 state. But the truth of thematter is, that's really not
true, almost anywhere at a locallevel. The counties in the state
have tilted dramatically, oneway or the other, your neck of
(05:25):
the woods is overwhelminglyRepublican right now in the 80%,
and up range. And that's goingto be tough to turn around. But
that fact the fact that thestate's politics are so divided
at a local level complicatesdealing with the other issues
that are on the table with theGeneral Assembly and others. So
that's probably a little morelong winded than you were
(05:46):
looking for. But that's kind ofan intro to the book into the
political piece of it.
Meral Clarke (05:51):
So how does this divide? And when you're talking
about the divide, you're talkingabout a political divide?
Correct between Republicans andDemocrats? So that's basically
what your book is about. So whatdo you mean by the local level
for one thing versus thestatewide level? And how does
this divide affect our electionsand politics in general?
Charlie Hayslett (06:13):
Well, going back to my days long ago, as a
political writer with the oldAtlanta Journal candidates used
to campaign all over the stateand the 19 think it was the 1980
Senate race, Norman Underwoodwas one of the candidates and he
said he was going to campaign inevery county in Georgia and I'm
pretty sure he did. He set uporganizations and bent all 159
(06:34):
counties and for good reason,you know, there were votes to be
had for any reasonable candidateall over the state back then.
Now, if you're a Democrat, yougot to think twice about how
much time you spend in FanninCounty or Towns County or Union
County and the same in speciallySoutheast Georgia. And if you're
a Republican doesn't make muchsense to spend a whole lot of
(06:55):
time in some areas of MetroAtlanta toward the end of the
Senate runoff campaign. The laststop Donald Trump made on behalf
of Purdue and Leffler was inDalton, Georgia. And the last
stop that Mike Pence made was inMilner, Georgia, Milner
Georgia's population is 600people. There just aren't that
(07:16):
many votes to be had forRepublicans or Democrats. So
that sort of tells you a littlebit about how political
candidates have to think aboutallocating their resources.
Another factoid there when yourneighbor up there, Zell Miller
ran for governor in 1990. Hishome county of Towns County gave
him right at 74% of the vote,which you would probably expect
(07:38):
for a local guy who's done wellin politics. When Brian Kemp ran
two years ago, four years ago,it's been now nearly 83% of the
town's county vote. That's howmuch areas have flipped. And
that's true across that tear ofNorth Georgia, which is one of
the Republicans strongholds,it's I think it's their
strongest hold in the state andan area that they're going to
(08:01):
work very hard to defend. I waslooking at some of your numbers
last night. And in actuallythere's a little tiny bit of
good news. But it's importantgood news between 2016 and the
2020 presidential elections,y'all managed to increase the
Democratic vote up there alittle more than the Republicans
increased their vote. And theDemocratic vote was obviously
(08:23):
much, much smaller than theRepublican vote. But obviously
in that election last year andelection in 2020, every vote
literally counted, so FanninCounty Democrats actually made a
difference there with therelative handful of votes that
you're able to put on the table.
It was important,
Meral Clarke (08:40):
it is important, and we've been working very hard
to make that divide smallerDemocrats are increasing in our
area. And that's across theninth congressional district. So
thank you for pointing that out.
Because we have been workingvery hard. How do you think that
this divide? And let's talkabout the political discourse in
rural areas versus urban areasas well? How do you sense this
(09:05):
divide moving forward in ourpolitical landscape? And how do
you think it will affect themidterm elections coming up on
November 8,
Charlie Hayslett (09:14):
The truth of the matter is that thanks to
COVID and some otherconstraints, I have not been
able to spend as much timetraveling around the state and
out in the rural areas, talkingto people as I would have liked
to. And the question you've justraised is one that I don't know
the answer to all digress justfor a second and tell you a
little personal story that Ithink is kind of telling. And it
(09:36):
has to do with Facebook. Andwhen Facebook first came to
light or came into being andprobably 14-15 years ago, now, I
was a little slow getting on it.
But I developed a bunch offriends on Facebook, some of
whom I really knew and some ofwhom didn't like everybody else,
I suspect and at some point,Facebook, put one of these
things up and said click hereand we'll tell you how many of
your friends are Democrats andhow many of your friends are
(09:56):
Republicans. And so I thoughtwell, that's Kind of
interesting. And I've noticedthat a few of my friends had
done it and they were 6041 wayor 5545 the other way. So I
clicked on it, and mom came backand dead even 5050, which I've
attributed both to my history asa journalist where I've covered
everybody. And as in my publicrelations work, a lot of it was
(10:19):
public affairs related andgovernment related, you were
having to deal with Democratsand Republicans. And that was
reflected in what that Facebookquestion yielded. And what I
used to do on Facebook would beto post questions about some
public policy issue that haddeveloped and come to light and
invite debate and discussion.
And the questions were alwayssort of neutrally framed. And it
(10:42):
used to be that I got a lot ofresponse from across the
political spectrum. And it was,for the most part, pretty civil,
and usually a fairly interestingback and forth. And over time,
that changed. For one thing, alot of my more conservative
friends, or I guess I gotta say,former friends have drifted
away, I don't know where they'vegone, but they've gone away. And
(11:03):
to the extent that they're stillon Facebook, and still listed as
friends, they don't participateanymore. And I think a lot of
them have just gone away period.
And when you got that basicdifficulty we're engaging is
concerned, you got to figure outhow to get people back to the
same table. And that's a toughthing to do in this environment,
especially when you've got thekinds of extensive divides that
we've got that produce extremecandidates, especially I think,
(11:27):
on the Republican side, but alsoto some degree on the Democratic
side. And somehow those folks wekeep electing have got to find a
way to talk to each other. And Idon't know how that happened.
Meral Clarke (11:39):
But that was my next question is how do we make?
Because it's worse now than I'veever seen? And what can we do to
fix that? What needs to happen?
Charlie Hayslett (11:49):
That's really above my paygrade. I do not know
the answer to that question. Ithink it's a good question to
ask as many people as you can.
It's a question I want to asksome people who are in politics.
And we've seen some examples offolks working together and
working across the aisles. Butthey don't typically publicize
it too much now, Senator Warnockin his advertising past focus to
(12:10):
some degree on the fact thathe's worked across the aisle,
with Republicans in the Senateto get some stuff done. And I
applaud that, I think that'sreally the only way to do it.
And the fact that he's been ableto is really encouraging. He's
not getting any credit for itamong Republican leaders,
especially in Georgia, andprobably not where many
Republican voters are concerned,although it's gonna be really
(12:31):
interesting to see how he doeswith that suburban vote,
especially suburban women. And Ithink he's gonna do okay with
that. But I do not know theanswer to that question. If I
did, I'd be charged a lot moremoney for this interview and
everything else I'm doing.
Meral Clarke (12:49):
You're doing this interview for free, right?
Charlie Hayslett (12:53):
At least one a cup of coffee out of
Meral Clarke (12:55):
at least buy you dinner. So why do you suppose
that this has gotten so bad? Imean, it's to the point where
Republicans and Democrats can'teven sit down and have a
conversation, especially if theyfeel passionate about the
interviews, and I will tell youthat I'm guilty of that myself,
hyper partisanship, I'm a verystrong Democrat. I've never
(13:17):
voted Republican, I would beconsidered a left wing
progressive by most Republicans.
So why do you suppose this hashappened? What brought this on?
And what do you think the nextsteps are?
Charlie Hayslett (13:31):
Well, there's a good bit of history to why
it's happened. I think that NewtGingrich got all this started,
he developed a whole vocabularyaround demonizing Democrats, and
it was all codified in a famousmemo he wrote years ago, and
that sort of became a must readmaterial for aspiring Republican
(13:52):
officeholders. And they soughtto absolutely demonize and
dehumanize Democrats. And add tothat Fox News and what they have
done. And then along comesDonald Trump, who takes it to
the whole next level. When Iworked as a journalist, it was
when Republicans were justbeginning to kind of get a
foothold in Georgia. And withoutfully appreciating what was
(14:15):
going on. I sort of covered theearly rise of the Republican
Party or Republican politiciansin Georgia, and most of them
were pretty reasonable people. Imean, Johnny Isakson was not a
crazy rabid right winger. He wasa very thoughtful, sober minded
legislator and US Senator BobBell was somebody I knew very
(14:35):
well and was a very decent guy.
You might not have agreed withhim, but you could have a civil
usually constructiveconversation with him. Now, I'm
not sure you can. The subjectmatter is entirely different. It
has become a huge culturalissue. And frankly, religion, I
think has come to play a massiverole, especially on the
Republican side. As I've saidbefore, I do not know The answer
(14:59):
to your second question of howwe get back to the table, but
you just got to keep trying.
Meral Clarke (15:05):
Why do you suppose the GOP, especially in our
state, why do you supposethey've embraced this far, far
right wing of the party, whichused to be just a crazy
minority? Why do you supposethat's happened? Do you think
that's mostly unmute, andeveryone following his lead? Or
what are your thoughts on that?
Charlie Hayslett (15:26):
Well, I don't think that Georgia is all that
unique, where what are describedas concerning the urban rural
divide, and the political dividebetween urban areas and rural
areas, is an nationalphenomenon, arguably a global
phenomenon. And I'm sure it'ssomething that keeps democratic
(15:46):
consultants up at night, becauseit just becomes harder and
harder to break into thosecommunities. I would love to
hear you talk about what it'slike to live in an area where
you're in such a distinctminority, and how you interact
with folks who you know, are ofa different political mind. And
they know you're of a politicaldifferent mind, I would imagine
(16:08):
that you've had relationshipslike that, that deteriorate that
I've run into that in severalplaces around the state. And it
used to be that you didn'treally know what your neighbors
politics necessarily were andfigured out what much of your
business and now everybody iswearing it on their sleeve. And
we'll be on to whoever calls himon it. But there have just been
(16:29):
a series of major evolutionarysteps that have gotten us to
where we are. And I do not knowhow you begin to turn that tide
back, except just keep hittingit like y'all are every day and
trying to round up more and moreDemocrats in areas that are so
heavily Republican,
Meral Clarke (16:46):
It's not easy. And I could definitely tell you some
hair raising stories. But wejust have to keep on keepin on.
So let's talk about the ruralurban divide for just a moment.
Most urban areas in metropolitanAtlanta, Cobb, Gwinnett, Fulton,
etc, are vastly blue. Correct.
And you've said the candidatesdon't spend a whole lot of time
(17:10):
in rural areas because theythink they're wasting their
time, which is actually nottrue. And I would have an entire
argument about how they're notwasting their time by spending
time up here because there aremore Democrats moving in daily.
But go ahead.
Charlie Hayslett (17:26):
Well, I'm glad to be corrected on that. Are you
saying that Democrats are infact spending time I know,
Stacey Abrams has been up there.
She's the my view sort of theexception to the rule in
politics. You've got finiteresources, money, time, and you
got to figure out how toallocate it to maximize your
vote getting she's raised somuch money that she's got more
flexibility than mostcandidates, and she has
(17:49):
reminisced her campaign aroundthe one Georgia idea and good
for her. I'm glad to see herdoing that. But I wonder how
much in resources time and moneythe folks down the ticket can
afford to be allocating toFannin County in you may be able
to tell me but it's not a casualdecision. It's interesting that
there are more and moreDemocrats moving in up there.
(18:10):
And I don't doubt that becauseNorth Georgia is different from
everything south of the netline.
But you got the mountains,you've got a nicer year round
climate for the most part, andyou're not that far from
Atlanta, you know, I can seethat you probably got a pretty
substantial remote working groupbeginning to build up there,
(18:31):
you've got to get the internetsituation taken care of. But
that strikes me as one of thecomponents to the development of
North Georgia. And anotherfactor there has to do with
educational levels. ForsythCounty is heavily Republican
still, Oconee County, where Ilive now is as well. But in both
of those counties, you're seeingan increase in population. And
(18:54):
it's an increase in highlyeducated population. And as more
and more college graduates setup housekeeping in Forsyth
County in Oconee. County andothers, you've seen that
Republican margin shrink, I'llbe a little off on my numbers
here. But I think Forsyth Countywent from being like 8020 in the
(19:14):
last cycle to 6040 in this oneor something like that. And
Oconee County is similar. So isthat county develops
economically and that wholenorthern tier and you attract a
more highly educated people,you're gonna begin to see that
shift. That's gonna take a longtime, probably given what the
numbers are, but I can see thatit might well work. The other
(19:36):
issue that y'all got, as I'veput it, you're having more
burials and baptisms. That wholepart of Georgia is having more
deaths and births every year,year in and year out for about
as long as the Department ofPublic Health has been keeping
records and you've got to find away to attract some younger
people to that area. And that'sa whole different conversation.
Meral Clarke (19:55):
I completely agree. And you know, we do tend
to skew older we have Have a lotof retirees up here. And the
good thing about that is thatpeople come in from different
places with differentperspectives and different
viewpoints. So that helps quitea bit. But you're right, the
baby boomer generation is onfull display up here. And in
(20:19):
order to attract younger people,we have to provide more jobs and
more viable ways to make aliving. But everything changes,
and you're right, it's achinglyslow. It's not always easy. But
we have seen our numbers on theDemocratic side, inching up very
slowly here in Fannin County. SoI can't really speak to Gilmer
(20:41):
or Towns or any of ourneighboring counties, but it's
happening and as I said, veryslowly, and it's not easy, but
the presence is here. So talk tous about the upcoming midterms
on November eighth. How do youthink this election will turn
out for Republicans andDemocrats running particularly
for statewide office? And howcritical Do you believe that
(21:04):
this election is?
Charlie Hayslett (21:05):
We'll take the last question. First. I think
it's very critical. I think thethe threat to democracy is real.
And depending on a lot ofthings, it's not out of the
question that the notion or theimportance of the popular vote
will go up in smoke within a fewyears. I hope that's hyperbole,
but it's not crazy. And thatmakes this election all the more
(21:26):
critical. Now, it's an uphillslog, I think, especially for
the candidates for state officefor Stacey Abrams, and Charlie
Bailey. And Jen Jordan, and someof the others Governor Kemp has
been very effective, frankly, atusing the powers of his
incumbency to further hiscampaign, it would have been
political malpractice to dootherwise. But when the history
(21:50):
of his administration iswritten, it'll absolutely take
note of the way he has spent allthe federal money you've had, he
was opposed to in the firstplace for spending the gas tax,
I still think he ought to haveto report that on some sort of a
financial contribution report.
And you've got to say that he'sthe favorite do think it's going
to be extremely close. AndStacey Abrams is about as close
(22:11):
to a political genius as I'veever observed. And she's put
together a very powerful machinethat may just be able to sneak
up on Kemp, but it's gonna takea lot of things breaking her
away, and a lot of suburbanvotes that ordinarily would go
Republican who will need to bethere stay home or switch to the
(22:32):
Democratic side this time,because of things like the Dobbs
decision, the reversal of Roe.
So there's that I think SenatorWarnock is in better shape. He's
handled himself well, in the twoyears. He's been in office going
on two years and has proven tobe have been effective. Senator,
I've had friends in Washington,going back to my days as a
(22:54):
reporter there tell me that hehas assembled what may be the
best staff in the United StatesSenate, very effective, very
competent, very responsive. Andwith any luck that will pay off
plus, I'm sorry, I still can'twrap my brain around the notion
that Herschel Walker ought to bein the United States Senate and
I bleed red and black. But Idon't get that. I'm just sorry,
(23:16):
I do not get that
Meral Clarke (23:17):
He's certainly not qualified or competent to serve.
Yeah,
Charlie Hayslett (23:21):
it's an amazing thing to watch, even
before you get to all of hispersonal problems. So I think in
this state, which went forPresident Biden by 11,800 votes
are right there at it'sobviously a 5050. State. It's a
coin toss, that coin tossprobably favors the Republicans
a little bit, but it's not outof reach for anybody on the
(23:43):
Democratic side, I don't think
Meral Clarke (23:45):
and we've got some fantastic statewide candidates,
many of which we've interviewedon this show. So it's extremely
exciting to see this extremelyhistoric and diverse slate of
candidates that we're putting upon the statewide level. I do
believe that Democrats arechipping away at the Republican
ownership of the GeneralAssembly. And as you stated
(24:08):
previously, it's going to takesome time, but I do believe it's
happening. And I also believethat the Embrace by the GOP,
both on the state and nationallevel of the far, far right wing
of the party is going tobackfire on Republicans
eventually, perhaps not duringthis election cycle, although I
(24:29):
hope so but you know, movingforward, most definitely.
Charlie Hayslett (24:32):
I'll tell you one thing that is worth watching
if you're a data geek or apolicy wonk, as I am either one
but I think the website isGeorgia boats.com. But it's a
free site. They scraped theSecretary of State's website, I
think every day for the numberof absentee ballots that have
been filed for and the number ofearly votes and the number of
(24:54):
mail in votes by county and ifyou watch that and track it and
can compare it to what happenedfour years ago, two years ago,
you can get a sense for wherethe change is taking place. One
piece that I wrote that gotalmost no readership was on the
morning of January 5 2021, theday of the runoff election
(25:15):
between Womack and Loeffler andOssoff and Purdue. And I use
that data to speculate about howfar ahead with early votes the
Democrats were what theRepublicans would have to do to
catch up and said in a piece Iposted in about noon that day
that if all the votes that werestill out, mail in votes, made
(25:37):
it in under the wire at seveno'clock, Ossoff stood to win by
55,000 votes, and I think he wonby 60,000. So if you're looking
for a way to build a crystalball, that's a pretty good
source to go to, and to monitorand you can use it where Fannin
County in North Georgia isconcerned as well is for
whatever it's worth,
Meral Clarke (25:55):
we appreciate the heads up. So Charlie, I could
talk to you all day. Politics issomething I've always loved and
been very interested in. Butunfortunately, we're running
short on time. So if someonewants to learn more about you,
if they want to get in touchwith you, if they want to read
your blog, where would you sendthem?
Charlie Hayslett (26:14):
Just go to the website with the blog, www
trouble in God's country.comTrouble in God's country runs
all together email addressesthere on the site, but it's C
hayslett@gmail.com. And I try torespond to all the emails I get.
I'll be honest, I get so manyfundraising emails that I missed
some personal stuff over time. Ithink I missed your first email
(26:37):
because of just the flood offundraising emails.
Meral Clarke (26:40):
Here it is election season. It is. We're
all getting those. And finally,Charlie and I ask all my guests
this question, and it tells meit's one of the hardest
questions to answer. Tell us afun fact about yourself
something not necessarilyrelated to your background or
your work as a politicalreporter and observer of
(27:01):
politics in our state and bothon statewide national levels.
Tell something interesting, justabout Charlie. Oh, Lord, I'm not
sure there is much I know youmentioned pre show you live on a
horse farm which is prettyinteresting. Do you ride?
Charlie Hayslett (27:16):
I do not. My youngest daughter grew up as a
horse kid and she now has ahorse farm here in Oconee.
County offers riding lessons isbuilt a good little clientele.
We've got I think through like10 horses here now. My wife and
I live in here with them. I'mjust hoping I don't end up in
one of the horse stalls.
Meral Clarke (27:36):
I'm sure. That's funny. Well, thank you, Charlie,
for joining us today and sharingmore about your critical work
about politics in our state andon the national level. I'm Meral
Clarke and I'll be half of ourteam. I'd like to thank everyone
for listening to the NorthGeorgia Blue Podcast. Join us
next time when we chat withAshland Swan, North Georgia
(27:59):
regional political director forthe Stacey Abrams campaign to
learn more about us and the workthat we're doing, visit us
online at Fannin County, Georgiademocrats.com all spelled out
share the North Georgia BluePodcast with your friends and
family. Be sure to subscribe andfollow and if you enjoy our
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(28:23):
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getting into more good trouble.
Hello and welcome back to the North Georgia Blue
Podcast produced and distributedby the Fannin County Democratic
Party. I'm your host MeralClarke and we're getting into
some good trouble today with ourguest, Charlie Hayslett former
AJC political reporter andcurrent urban rural political
(00:38):
blogger. Welcome to the show,Charlie. We're happy you're
here.
Charlie Hayslett (00:42):
Appreciate the opportunity to be here. Glad to
be with you.
Meral Clarke (00:44):
Wonderful. We're glad you're here. And let's let
our listeners know a little bitabout you. Charlie is an award
winning journalist speechwriterand public relations counselor.
After officially retiring at theend of 2017, he began devoting
most of his time to researchingand writing a nonfiction book
that he describes as being aboutthe costs and consequences of
(01:08):
Georgia's widening urban ruraldivide. The book is tentatively
titled Trouble in God's countryand he maintains a blog by the
same name at Trouble in God'scountry.com. The blog was
originally intended as a parkingplace for working draft
material, but over time, it hasattracted a following and had an
(01:29):
impact on the development ofpublic policy to address the
challenges confronting Georgia'srural communities. Hayslett's
blog has been credited by theoriginal co chairs of the
Georgia House Rural DevelopmentCouncil with triggering the
creation of that body in 2017.
And Hayslett presented thatgroup at its opening session in
2017, and again in 2021. Hiswork has been published or cited
(01:55):
in publications from coast tocoast from the Washington Post
to the Sacramento Bee, the AJC's daily jolt column regularly
references his research and hasreferred to his blog as quote an
unrelenting avalanche of factsand figures and to him as quote
one of the smartest thinkersaround on the growing divide
(02:18):
between Metro Atlanta and therest of the state end quote. He
began his working life as anewspaper journalist covering
government and politics for theAtlanta Journal in Atlanta and
Washington. He is a native ofColumbus, Mississippi, and holds
a bachelor's degree from theUniversity of Georgia's Grady
College of Journalism and MassCommunications. In 2008, he was
(02:41):
named to the inaugural class ofthe college's Grady fellowship
and served for several years onthe College's Board of Trustees.
He is also a former member ofthe Board of Directors of
Georgians for a healthy future.
Well, you've been a busy guy,Charlie, you've done quite a bit
(03:03):
over the years. So let's diveright in and talk about your
blog and your upcoming book.
What's going on with the urbanrural divide? What is it? How
does it affect us specifically,as it relates to our politics
and elections?
Charlie Hayslett (03:18):
Sure. And let me take just a minute and talk
about how I got started on this.
And that was a little over adecade ago, I was pulled into a
project related to the state'spublic health system. And very
long story short, we settled ona messaging strategy that was
aimed at demonstrating therelationship between community
health and economic vitality ata local level, and county levels
(03:40):
specifically, and I knewgenerally what to expect from
the research. But we did a tonof research pull together a lot
of data. And frankly, I wasblown away by the extent of the
divide. That was apparent eventhen, and I began talking to
some people on you in thepolitical world in the business
world about it, and that Ithought it was a bigger problem
(04:00):
than the state appreciated andgot a bunch of blank stares. As
I was edging toward retirement,I thought there's a book in
this. And I think it's a bigdeal. So I started as we used to
say, in the newspaper business,gathering yarn, and pulling
together threads of information.
And I decided the only way orthe best way to tell the story
was with data. And when Istarted, I thought I can do this
(04:23):
in about two years. I can pinsix months on the data research
and six months out traveling thestate and six months writing and
then six months cleaning it up,and I'll be done. And that was a
decade ago. And the truth is,that's turned out to be a good
thing because every time I thinkI'm getting close to being done,
some new bucket of data willcome over the transom and I'll
(04:44):
feel obligated to fold it intowhat I'm doing. Every time I've
done that it's demonstrated thatthe economic divide the public
health divide, the educationalachievement divide continues to
get wider and wider. And it'salmost as though I've had a
front row seat in somethingapproaching in real time to the
way this chasm has beendeveloping, and politics is very
(05:04):
much part of it, the stateobviously has divided
politically, it's now regardedas something very close to a
5050 state. But the truth of thematter is, that's really not
true, almost anywhere at a locallevel. The counties in the state
have tilted dramatically, oneway or the other, your neck of
(05:25):
the woods is overwhelminglyRepublican right now in the 80%,
and up range. And that's goingto be tough to turn around. But
that fact the fact that thestate's politics are so divided
at a local level complicatesdealing with the other issues
that are on the table with theGeneral Assembly and others. So
that's probably a little morelong winded than you were
(05:46):
looking for. But that's kind ofan intro to the book into the
political piece of it.
Meral Clarke (05:51):
So how does this divide? And when you're talking
about the divide, you're talkingabout a political divide?
Correct between Republicans andDemocrats? So that's basically
what your book is about. So whatdo you mean by the local level
for one thing versus thestatewide level? And how does
this divide affect our electionsand politics in general?
Charlie Hayslett (06:13):
Well, going back to my days long ago, as a
political writer with the oldAtlanta Journal candidates used
to campaign all over the stateand the 19 think it was the 1980
Senate race, Norman Underwoodwas one of the candidates and he
said he was going to campaign inevery county in Georgia and I'm
pretty sure he did. He set uporganizations and bent all 159
(06:34):
counties and for good reason,you know, there were votes to be
had for any reasonable candidateall over the state back then.
Now, if you're a Democrat, yougot to think twice about how
much time you spend in FanninCounty or Towns County or Union
County and the same in speciallySoutheast Georgia. And if you're
a Republican doesn't make muchsense to spend a whole lot of
(06:55):
time in some areas of MetroAtlanta toward the end of the
Senate runoff campaign. The laststop Donald Trump made on behalf
of Purdue and Leffler was inDalton, Georgia. And the last
stop that Mike Pence made was inMilner, Georgia, Milner
Georgia's population is 600people. There just aren't that
(07:16):
many votes to be had forRepublicans or Democrats. So
that sort of tells you a littlebit about how political
candidates have to think aboutallocating their resources.
Another factoid there when yourneighbor up there, Zell Miller
ran for governor in 1990. Hishome county of Towns County gave
him right at 74% of the vote,which you would probably expect
(07:38):
for a local guy who's done wellin politics. When Brian Kemp ran
two years ago, four years ago,it's been now nearly 83% of the
town's county vote. That's howmuch areas have flipped. And
that's true across that tear ofNorth Georgia, which is one of
the Republicans strongholds,it's I think it's their
strongest hold in the state andan area that they're going to
(08:01):
work very hard to defend. I waslooking at some of your numbers
last night. And in actuallythere's a little tiny bit of
good news. But it's importantgood news between 2016 and the
2020 presidential elections,y'all managed to increase the
Democratic vote up there alittle more than the Republicans
increased their vote. And theDemocratic vote was obviously
(08:23):
much, much smaller than theRepublican vote. But obviously
in that election last year andelection in 2020, every vote
literally counted, so FanninCounty Democrats actually made a
difference there with therelative handful of votes that
you're able to put on the table.
It was important,
Meral Clarke (08:40):
it is important, and we've been working very hard
to make that divide smallerDemocrats are increasing in our
area. And that's across theninth congressional district. So
thank you for pointing that out.
Because we have been workingvery hard. How do you think that
this divide? And let's talkabout the political discourse in
rural areas versus urban areasas well? How do you sense this
(09:05):
divide moving forward in ourpolitical landscape? And how do
you think it will affect themidterm elections coming up on
November 8,
Charlie Hayslett (09:14):
The truth of the matter is that thanks to
COVID and some otherconstraints, I have not been
able to spend as much timetraveling around the state and
out in the rural areas, talkingto people as I would have liked
to. And the question you've justraised is one that I don't know
the answer to all digress justfor a second and tell you a
little personal story that Ithink is kind of telling. And it
(09:36):
has to do with Facebook. Andwhen Facebook first came to
light or came into being andprobably 14-15 years ago, now, I
was a little slow getting on it.
But I developed a bunch offriends on Facebook, some of
whom I really knew and some ofwhom didn't like everybody else,
I suspect and at some point,Facebook, put one of these
things up and said click hereand we'll tell you how many of
your friends are Democrats andhow many of your friends are
(09:56):
Republicans. And so I thoughtwell, that's Kind of
interesting. And I've noticedthat a few of my friends had
done it and they were 6041 wayor 5545 the other way. So I
clicked on it, and mom came backand dead even 5050, which I've
attributed both to my history asa journalist where I've covered
everybody. And as in my publicrelations work, a lot of it was
(10:19):
public affairs related andgovernment related, you were
having to deal with Democratsand Republicans. And that was
reflected in what that Facebookquestion yielded. And what I
used to do on Facebook would beto post questions about some
public policy issue that haddeveloped and come to light and
invite debate and discussion.
And the questions were alwayssort of neutrally framed. And it
(10:42):
used to be that I got a lot ofresponse from across the
political spectrum. And it was,for the most part, pretty civil,
and usually a fairly interestingback and forth. And over time,
that changed. For one thing, alot of my more conservative
friends, or I guess I gotta say,former friends have drifted
away, I don't know where they'vegone, but they've gone away. And
(11:03):
to the extent that they're stillon Facebook, and still listed as
friends, they don't participateanymore. And I think a lot of
them have just gone away period.
And when you got that basicdifficulty we're engaging is
concerned, you got to figure outhow to get people back to the
same table. And that's a toughthing to do in this environment,
especially when you've got thekinds of extensive divides that
we've got that produce extremecandidates, especially I think,
(11:27):
on the Republican side, but alsoto some degree on the Democratic
side. And somehow those folks wekeep electing have got to find a
way to talk to each other. And Idon't know how that happened.
Meral Clarke (11:39):
But that was my next question is how do we make?
Because it's worse now than I'veever seen? And what can we do to
fix that? What needs to happen?
Charlie Hayslett (11:49):
That's really above my paygrade. I do not know
the answer to that question. Ithink it's a good question to
ask as many people as you can.
It's a question I want to asksome people who are in politics.
And we've seen some examples offolks working together and
working across the aisles. Butthey don't typically publicize
it too much now, Senator Warnockin his advertising past focus to
(12:10):
some degree on the fact thathe's worked across the aisle,
with Republicans in the Senateto get some stuff done. And I
applaud that, I think that'sreally the only way to do it.
And the fact that he's been ableto is really encouraging. He's
not getting any credit for itamong Republican leaders,
especially in Georgia, andprobably not where many
Republican voters are concerned,although it's gonna be really
(12:31):
interesting to see how he doeswith that suburban vote,
especially suburban women. And Ithink he's gonna do okay with
that. But I do not know theanswer to that question. If I
did, I'd be charged a lot moremoney for this interview and
everything else I'm doing.
Meral Clarke (12:49):
You're doing this interview for free, right?
Charlie Hayslett (12:53):
At least one a cup of coffee out of
Meral Clarke (12:55):
at least buy you dinner. So why do you suppose
that this has gotten so bad? Imean, it's to the point where
Republicans and Democrats can'teven sit down and have a
conversation, especially if theyfeel passionate about the
interviews, and I will tell youthat I'm guilty of that myself,
hyper partisanship, I'm a verystrong Democrat. I've never
(13:17):
voted Republican, I would beconsidered a left wing
progressive by most Republicans.
So why do you suppose this hashappened? What brought this on?
And what do you think the nextsteps are?
Charlie Hayslett (13:31):
Well, there's a good bit of history to why
it's happened. I think that NewtGingrich got all this started,
he developed a whole vocabularyaround demonizing Democrats, and
it was all codified in a famousmemo he wrote years ago, and
that sort of became a must readmaterial for aspiring Republican
(13:52):
officeholders. And they soughtto absolutely demonize and
dehumanize Democrats. And add tothat Fox News and what they have
done. And then along comesDonald Trump, who takes it to
the whole next level. When Iworked as a journalist, it was
when Republicans were justbeginning to kind of get a
foothold in Georgia. And withoutfully appreciating what was
(14:15):
going on. I sort of covered theearly rise of the Republican
Party or Republican politiciansin Georgia, and most of them
were pretty reasonable people. Imean, Johnny Isakson was not a
crazy rabid right winger. He wasa very thoughtful, sober minded
legislator and US Senator BobBell was somebody I knew very
(14:35):
well and was a very decent guy.
You might not have agreed withhim, but you could have a civil
usually constructiveconversation with him. Now, I'm
not sure you can. The subjectmatter is entirely different. It
has become a huge culturalissue. And frankly, religion, I
think has come to play a massiverole, especially on the
Republican side. As I've saidbefore, I do not know The answer
(14:59):
to your second question of howwe get back to the table, but
you just got to keep trying.
Meral Clarke (15:05):
Why do you suppose the GOP, especially in our
state, why do you supposethey've embraced this far, far
right wing of the party, whichused to be just a crazy
minority? Why do you supposethat's happened? Do you think
that's mostly unmute, andeveryone following his lead? Or
what are your thoughts on that?
Charlie Hayslett (15:26):
Well, I don't think that Georgia is all that
unique, where what are describedas concerning the urban rural
divide, and the political dividebetween urban areas and rural
areas, is an nationalphenomenon, arguably a global
phenomenon. And I'm sure it'ssomething that keeps democratic
(15:46):
consultants up at night, becauseit just becomes harder and
harder to break into thosecommunities. I would love to
hear you talk about what it'slike to live in an area where
you're in such a distinctminority, and how you interact
with folks who you know, are ofa different political mind. And
they know you're of a politicaldifferent mind, I would imagine
(16:08):
that you've had relationshipslike that, that deteriorate that
I've run into that in severalplaces around the state. And it
used to be that you didn'treally know what your neighbors
politics necessarily were andfigured out what much of your
business and now everybody iswearing it on their sleeve. And
we'll be on to whoever calls himon it. But there have just been
(16:29):
a series of major evolutionarysteps that have gotten us to
where we are. And I do not knowhow you begin to turn that tide
back, except just keep hittingit like y'all are every day and
trying to round up more and moreDemocrats in areas that are so
heavily Republican,
Meral Clarke (16:46):
It's not easy. And I could definitely tell you some
hair raising stories. But wejust have to keep on keepin on.
So let's talk about the ruralurban divide for just a moment.
Most urban areas in metropolitanAtlanta, Cobb, Gwinnett, Fulton,
etc, are vastly blue. Correct.
And you've said the candidatesdon't spend a whole lot of time
(17:10):
in rural areas because theythink they're wasting their
time, which is actually nottrue. And I would have an entire
argument about how they're notwasting their time by spending
time up here because there aremore Democrats moving in daily.
But go ahead.
Charlie Hayslett (17:26):
Well, I'm glad to be corrected on that. Are you
saying that Democrats are infact spending time I know,
Stacey Abrams has been up there.
She's the my view sort of theexception to the rule in
politics. You've got finiteresources, money, time, and you
got to figure out how toallocate it to maximize your
vote getting she's raised somuch money that she's got more
flexibility than mostcandidates, and she has
(17:49):
reminisced her campaign aroundthe one Georgia idea and good
for her. I'm glad to see herdoing that. But I wonder how
much in resources time and moneythe folks down the ticket can
afford to be allocating toFannin County in you may be able
to tell me but it's not a casualdecision. It's interesting that
there are more and moreDemocrats moving in up there.
(18:10):
And I don't doubt that becauseNorth Georgia is different from
everything south of the netline.
But you got the mountains,you've got a nicer year round
climate for the most part, andyou're not that far from
Atlanta, you know, I can seethat you probably got a pretty
substantial remote working groupbeginning to build up there,
(18:31):
you've got to get the internetsituation taken care of. But
that strikes me as one of thecomponents to the development of
North Georgia. And anotherfactor there has to do with
educational levels. ForsythCounty is heavily Republican
still, Oconee County, where Ilive now is as well. But in both
of those counties, you're seeingan increase in population. And
(18:54):
it's an increase in highlyeducated population. And as more
and more college graduates setup housekeeping in Forsyth
County in Oconee. County andothers, you've seen that
Republican margin shrink, I'llbe a little off on my numbers
here. But I think Forsyth Countywent from being like 8020 in the
(19:14):
last cycle to 6040 in this oneor something like that. And
Oconee County is similar. So isthat county develops
economically and that wholenorthern tier and you attract a
more highly educated people,you're gonna begin to see that
shift. That's gonna take a longtime, probably given what the
numbers are, but I can see thatit might well work. The other
(19:36):
issue that y'all got, as I'veput it, you're having more
burials and baptisms. That wholepart of Georgia is having more
deaths and births every year,year in and year out for about
as long as the Department ofPublic Health has been keeping
records and you've got to find away to attract some younger
people to that area. And that'sa whole different conversation.
Meral Clarke (19:55):
I completely agree. And you know, we do tend
to skew older we have Have a lotof retirees up here. And the
good thing about that is thatpeople come in from different
places with differentperspectives and different
viewpoints. So that helps quitea bit. But you're right, the
baby boomer generation is onfull display up here. And in
(20:19):
order to attract younger people,we have to provide more jobs and
more viable ways to make aliving. But everything changes,
and you're right, it's achinglyslow. It's not always easy. But
we have seen our numbers on theDemocratic side, inching up very
slowly here in Fannin County. SoI can't really speak to Gilmer
(20:41):
or Towns or any of ourneighboring counties, but it's
happening and as I said, veryslowly, and it's not easy, but
the presence is here. So talk tous about the upcoming midterms
on November eighth. How do youthink this election will turn
out for Republicans andDemocrats running particularly
for statewide office? And howcritical Do you believe that
(21:04):
this election is?
Charlie Hayslett (21:05):
We'll take the last question. First. I think
it's very critical. I think thethe threat to democracy is real.
And depending on a lot ofthings, it's not out of the
question that the notion or theimportance of the popular vote
will go up in smoke within a fewyears. I hope that's hyperbole,
but it's not crazy. And thatmakes this election all the more
(21:26):
critical. Now, it's an uphillslog, I think, especially for
the candidates for state officefor Stacey Abrams, and Charlie
Bailey. And Jen Jordan, and someof the others Governor Kemp has
been very effective, frankly, atusing the powers of his
incumbency to further hiscampaign, it would have been
political malpractice to dootherwise. But when the history
(21:50):
of his administration iswritten, it'll absolutely take
note of the way he has spent allthe federal money you've had, he
was opposed to in the firstplace for spending the gas tax,
I still think he ought to haveto report that on some sort of a
financial contribution report.
And you've got to say that he'sthe favorite do think it's going
to be extremely close. AndStacey Abrams is about as close
(22:11):
to a political genius as I'veever observed. And she's put
together a very powerful machinethat may just be able to sneak
up on Kemp, but it's gonna takea lot of things breaking her
away, and a lot of suburbanvotes that ordinarily would go
Republican who will need to bethere stay home or switch to the
(22:32):
Democratic side this time,because of things like the Dobbs
decision, the reversal of Roe.
So there's that I think SenatorWarnock is in better shape. He's
handled himself well, in the twoyears. He's been in office going
on two years and has proven tobe have been effective. Senator,
I've had friends in Washington,going back to my days as a
(22:54):
reporter there tell me that hehas assembled what may be the
best staff in the United StatesSenate, very effective, very
competent, very responsive. Andwith any luck that will pay off
plus, I'm sorry, I still can'twrap my brain around the notion
that Herschel Walker ought to bein the United States Senate and
I bleed red and black. But Idon't get that. I'm just sorry,
(23:16):
I do not get that
Meral Clarke (23:17):
He's certainly not qualified or competent to serve.
Yeah,
Charlie Hayslett (23:21):
it's an amazing thing to watch, even
before you get to all of hispersonal problems. So I think in
this state, which went forPresident Biden by 11,800 votes
are right there at it'sobviously a 5050. State. It's a
coin toss, that coin tossprobably favors the Republicans
a little bit, but it's not outof reach for anybody on the
(23:43):
Democratic side, I don't think
Meral Clarke (23:45):
and we've got some fantastic statewide candidates,
many of which we've interviewedon this show. So it's extremely
exciting to see this extremelyhistoric and diverse slate of
candidates that we're putting upon the statewide level. I do
believe that Democrats arechipping away at the Republican
ownership of the GeneralAssembly. And as you stated
(24:08):
previously, it's going to takesome time, but I do believe it's
happening. And I also believethat the Embrace by the GOP,
both on the state and nationallevel of the far, far right wing
of the party is going tobackfire on Republicans
eventually, perhaps not duringthis election cycle, although I
(24:29):
hope so but you know, movingforward, most definitely.
Charlie Hayslett (24:32):
I'll tell you one thing that is worth watching
if you're a data geek or apolicy wonk, as I am either one
but I think the website isGeorgia boats.com. But it's a
free site. They scraped theSecretary of State's website, I
think every day for the numberof absentee ballots that have
been filed for and the number ofearly votes and the number of
(24:54):
mail in votes by county and ifyou watch that and track it and
can compare it to what happenedfour years ago, two years ago,
you can get a sense for wherethe change is taking place. One
piece that I wrote that gotalmost no readership was on the
morning of January 5 2021, theday of the runoff election
(25:15):
between Womack and Loeffler andOssoff and Purdue. And I use
that data to speculate about howfar ahead with early votes the
Democrats were what theRepublicans would have to do to
catch up and said in a piece Iposted in about noon that day
that if all the votes that werestill out, mail in votes, made
(25:37):
it in under the wire at seveno'clock, Ossoff stood to win by
55,000 votes, and I think he wonby 60,000. So if you're looking
for a way to build a crystalball, that's a pretty good
source to go to, and to monitorand you can use it where Fannin
County in North Georgia isconcerned as well is for
whatever it's worth,
Meral Clarke (25:55):
we appreciate the heads up. So Charlie, I could
talk to you all day. Politics issomething I've always loved and
been very interested in. Butunfortunately, we're running
short on time. So if someonewants to learn more about you,
if they want to get in touchwith you, if they want to read
your blog, where would you sendthem?
Charlie Hayslett (26:14):
Just go to the website with the blog, www
trouble in God's country.comTrouble in God's country runs
all together email addressesthere on the site, but it's C
hayslett@gmail.com. And I try torespond to all the emails I get.
I'll be honest, I get so manyfundraising emails that I missed
some personal stuff over time. Ithink I missed your first email
(26:37):
because of just the flood offundraising emails.
Meral Clarke (26:40):
Here it is election season. It is. We're
all getting those. And finally,Charlie and I ask all my guests
this question, and it tells meit's one of the hardest
questions to answer. Tell us afun fact about yourself
something not necessarilyrelated to your background or
your work as a politicalreporter and observer of
(27:01):
politics in our state and bothon statewide national levels.
Tell something interesting, justabout Charlie. Oh, Lord, I'm not
sure there is much I know youmentioned pre show you live on a
horse farm which is prettyinteresting. Do you ride?
Charlie Hayslett (27:16):
I do not. My youngest daughter grew up as a
horse kid and she now has ahorse farm here in Oconee.
County offers riding lessons isbuilt a good little clientele.
We've got I think through like10 horses here now. My wife and
I live in here with them. I'mjust hoping I don't end up in
one of the horse stalls.
Meral Clarke (27:36):
I'm sure. That's funny. Well, thank you, Charlie,
for joining us today and sharingmore about your critical work
about politics in our state andon the national level. I'm Meral
Clarke and I'll be half of ourteam. I'd like to thank everyone
for listening to the NorthGeorgia Blue Podcast. Join us
next time when we chat withAshland Swan, North Georgia
(27:59):
regional political director forthe Stacey Abrams campaign to
learn more about us and the workthat we're doing, visit us
online at Fannin County, Georgiademocrats.com all spelled out
share the North Georgia BluePodcast with your friends and
family. Be sure to subscribe andfollow and if you enjoy our
podcasts be a founding patronand friend of the show at North
(28:23):
Georgia blue podcast.com/patronwith three different giving
levels to choose from offeringcool swag recognition on the
show and website and valuablegift cards to help us continue
getting into more good trouble.
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