August 10, 2024 • 64 mins
On this whimsical episode, Katie and Cindy tackle the theme of "Least Likely to Succeed." Cindy gives a brief history of Neanderthals and Katie shares the story of Daniel Sickles.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
80.
Happy summer.
Last time we recorded it wasstill spring.
Hi, cindy Happy summer and wehad some pretty grand plans to
record a lot this summer.
But you know what?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh my God, it's summer, so oh yeah, yes, Totally
, we still have time.
We could cram a whole bunchmore in before the end of the
summer.
You know it's doable.
Airplane.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We're both going to be traveling.
That's plenty of time to youknow.
Add to the list.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Do you do that Instead of interacting with our
families, Just like going to betraveling there's plenty of time
to you know, add to the listinstead of interacting with our
families, Just you know Reading.
No, no, I do, I have very slylyText messages, but it's their
fault.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
You know there's a lot of if you sit next to an
older person they have a largefont.
Like you cannot not read it,but what a joy, what a joy to
like peek over and see somebodyworking on a history story.
What a dream, Katie.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I would be so excited .
I feel like that would be a bigrelief from some of the people
that I've sat next to on planes.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
before I've had one woman she was like certifiably
crazy and was trying to convertme to her religion.
I was like no, I'm good, Thankyou.
Thank you very much so anyway,I'm hoping that when I got on a
plane I will give somebody thethrill of a lifetime.
Maybe it'll spark conversation.
Maybe they'll sparkconversation.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Maybe they'll learn something.
Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes, at the very least we get one subscriber,
something Okay, so something youdid not know, katie.
So you know that we use there'sa certain platform that we use
for uploading our podcast, sothis platform recently came out
(02:24):
with some special features,including an AI-generated
summary of our podcast.
There's more, but I thoughtwe're worth it, so I signed up
for the AI part of the platformto get the AI to generate a
summary of our last podcast, ourlast episode.
(02:46):
Yeah, katie, it's so good.
Okay, so, to jog your memoryback to May, we our topic was in
another life, right?
Okay?
So, in the words of AI, yes,here's what our, our episode is
all about.
Yes, yes, yes.
(03:08):
Listen to your seatbelts for awhimsical detour into the life
of a Victorian girl who claimeda lineage tracing back to the
sands of ancient Egypt.
Was she merely a history buff,or was there something more
spiritual, bridging the gapbetween her Victorian life and
the era of pharaohs?
We'll share a chuckle over howa Katy Perry tune can inspire
(03:30):
story ideas and how identity cansometimes feel like a game of
temporal hopscotch.
Ending on a gripping note,we'll recount the nail-biting
escapades of Yoshie Shiratori,the prison break magician of
1930s and 40s Japan.
His relentless pursuit offreedom against all odds not
(03:51):
only sheds light on the era'sprison conditions, but also
inspires a conversation aboutresilience in the face of life's
toughest challenges.
So get ready to laugh, ponderand find a bit of yourself in
the incredible stories ofindividuals who transcended the
ordinary, all shared with thewarmth and camaraderie you've
(04:13):
come to expect from Katie and methat was right.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
You know what that was an emotional roller coaster,
but it ended on a high note.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That was oh, thank you, ai, we have warmth and when
the our robot overlords aregonna take over for you and me,
don't you?
Feel so good about yourself,don't you?
You feel like this is like damn, this is a good podcast, oh no,
oh, that was really sweet.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I do.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So anyway, I thought that was very flattering.
If the robots say so.
It's a bunch of BS.
Personally, like too much AI,too much Flattering.
Like too much AI, too muchFlattering, but too much so I'm
going to cancel.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yes, yes no.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I was going to say the.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
AI did its job, or maybe like $5.50.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I would tune into that and then halfway through
I'd be like, no, I was sold adifferent story, this is not.
This is not what I expected.
So, anyway, I just thought thatwas hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
But this is not what I signed up for.
What's our topic this month?
That's really cool, cindy.
This is not what I signed upfor.
What's our topic this month?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
That's really cool, cindy, yes, cindy, oh, I'm a
Least likely to succeedEveryone's high school yearbook.
Should I just rip up my storywith Abraham Lincoln?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
No, I'm kidding, no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, no, no
, this, no, no, this is perfect,cindy, this is perfect.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
My lack of reading skills no.
I'm just kidding.
That was a whimsy, cindy.
I did least likely to succeedtoo.
I'm disappointing you.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Got me good, oh my God no you got me so good.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I know we all would love to hear the story of
Abraham Lincoln.
I'm not even mad, I'm justimpressed I've got something
else planned for you, katie,something else to tickle your
fancy and the fancies of all.
That's wrong.
I'm not.
That's not appropriate.
I'm a married woman.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Listen, cindy, whatever you do in your free
time, the fancy you want totickle, all the fancies.
Little fancy tickler, you dowhat you do.
I'm not here to judge, mostmost likely to speaking of high
school superlatives.
Fun fact cind Cindy was namedtickler, I'm proud to say.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
For the last 20 years I have lived up to my
reputation.
Oh sweet Jesus, where is thisgoing?
No, katie, would you like yourfancy tickles?
I'm crying.
(07:47):
When we came up with a themefor this story, right Least
likely to succeed, I pretty muchknew right away what the topic
was that I wanted to cover, butI still wanted to do a little
research to see what was outthere.
I wanted to do a little tick tosee what was out there.
(08:07):
I wanted to do a littletickling, a little Google
tickling, something, google.
Okay, I partook in the Googlingand, interestingly, okay.
So there are so many storiesout there about people who
shouldn't have succeeded butthey did, despite all the odds.
I wanted to share a story ofpeople who flat out did not
(08:31):
succeed.
I don't want to share anAmerican success story, no, just
a story of people who did notsucceed whatsoever.
So, katie, my least likely tosucceed story is brought to you
by Neanderthals.
Yes, yes.
So first of all, I feel there'sa small part of me, the entire
(08:55):
species that feels like mybritches are too big.
Is that a saying?
There's a part of me that feelslike I'm too big for my
britches when I say neanderthalsit's like aunt too big for your
britches like I say auntbecause it feels.
(09:16):
It feels more sophisticated likeI, I feel like I'm more
educated when I say aunt, butthen I'm like but Cindy, you are
from New Jersey.
Like you were born in NewJersey, you should say aunt and
so like.
When it comes to Neanderthals,I know the proper pronunciation
is Neanderthals, but then I'mlike Cindy, you were born in New
(09:37):
Jersey.
You should say Neanderthals.
So I am going to sayNeanderthals because it's
technically the correct way tosay it those of you who say
Neanderthals, I'm right therewith you.
I'm right there with you inspirit.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I feel like you have a full right to do that, because
you are the proprietor of avery successful history podcast
so you go, girl you go I thoughtyou were saying because I have
a podcast, I have a right toanything.
No, I mean, you can say both.
I damn well, please.
I think so.
(10:25):
Yes, this is the equivalent ofthe public square, so to speak.
It's our goddamn FirstAmendment.
Right to say whatever the hellwe want, right Neanderthals.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
So I have a question for you when were you when you
first learned that modern humansdid not evolve from
Neanderthals?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yes, oh, like biology class when it finally clicked
that, like we are not descendedfrom monkeys, it's all the
product of our own individualyou know evolutionary path,
(11:11):
which is funny because Iliterally had this conversation
with my six-year-old.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I'm so glad that you're raising her right, katie,
because that's the kind of you.
You're a great mom?
I don't think so.
I think well, it's funnybecause I actually asked.
I tested this out on my husbandbecause he's a really smart guy
, but he honey don't take thisthe wrong way when you hear this
but he represents like theaverage person.
(11:34):
He's like I do.
I've never literally thoughtabout Neanderthals.
Neanderthals.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I've never thought about youthals, neanderthals,
I've never thought about, youknow, the roman empire and so I
said I said so.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
When I say neanderthals, like uh.
I asked him um, do you thinkthat humans came from
neanderthals, or when did theycome from neanderthals, or
something?
He's like I don't know, like Ithink yeah, neanderthals were
early humans, or something.
So, anyway, I floated this onmy husband.
Most people at one time oranother either thought, or many
(12:12):
still think, like my sweethusband, that modern humans
evolved from Neanderthals, andthis just isn't true.
When we learn about humanevolution, like in school, we
picture a line of humansprogressing from apes to us,
right, modern humans.
But evolution, like you areteaching your daughter, katie,
(12:34):
is a little bit more complexthan that.
So I'm going to try to keepthis as simple as I possibly can
.
Let's go back 12 million yearsago, and this is when a common
ancestor to hominins, aka humans, gorillas, uh, bonobos I always
want to say bonobos, that'salso the new jersey and me
(12:56):
coming out like no rein it incindy neanderthals, bonobos.
So anyway, hominins, gorillas,bonobos and gorillas they all
shared a common ancestor, um,and this common ancestor lived
(13:17):
in africa.
Now africa is basically groundzero for human evolution.
The easiest way to explain thisis that gorillas eventually
break off and they do their ownevolution thing, which
ultimately results in the modernday Western and Eastern
gorillas.
Around 8 million years ago, thelast common ancestor for
(13:38):
hominins, chimpanzees andbonobos lived.
Bonobos and chimpanzees thenbreak off and do their own
evolution thing, continue toevolve into different species,
with most scientists recognizingabout 15 to 20 different
species of early humans, whichincludes neanderthals.
Now scientists don't agree onhow all of these species were
(14:02):
related to each other if theythey were related at all and
which species just becametotally extinct.
Two and 1.8 million years ago,early humans migrated out of
Africa and into Asia, and thenthey migrated to Europe between
1.5 and 1 million years ago.
It's important to note thatHomo sapiens, aka modern humans
(14:25):
like you and me, katie theydidn't appear until 300,000
years ago when they emerged fromAfrica.
So when Homo sapiens came ontothe scene, it wasn't like bam,
now we're all Homo sapiens.
Yeah, there were other speciesof archaic humans still around.
Neanderthals evolved in Europeand Asia while modern humans
(14:48):
again.
Our species, homo sapiens, wereevolving in Africa, so things
were happening like.
At the same time, I want topoint out that there was another
group of archaic humans calledthe Denisovans.
Denisovans, oh, denisovans,denisovans.
(15:09):
There was.
There was another group ofarchaic humans called the
denisovans, who overlapped withthe neanderthals and early homo
sapiens, who were onlydiscovered in 2008, and they
still kind of remain a mystery.
So I'm gonna discussexclusively neanderthals for
this episode.
But I mean no shade to theDenisovans.
I'm sure they're gray people,but we're just going to skip
(15:31):
over them right now.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We're ignoring them again, just like we have for
most of human history.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I feel guilt On fossil evidence.
Neanderthals were wellestablished in Europe by like
400,000 years ago.
Neanderthals ranged from Walesand Portugal and all the way
across to the Altai Mountains inSiberia.
So that's a pretty wide rangethat Neanderthals had.
So some of the like classic,hallmarky characteristics of
(16:04):
Neanderthals were, of course, along, low skull and a prominent
brow ridge above the eyes.
Their noses were big and wide,which interestingly, may have
been an actual adaptation to thecold weather.
So scientists think that thebigger the nose, the easier it
was to moisten and warm the airthat neanderthals would have
(16:25):
breathed in, which I thought waskind of cool.
Neanderthals did not have bigchins, but their front teeth
were very large, demonstratingthat they use their teeth to
help prepare food and othermaterials.
So, like when kids want to justgo and like open their chips
with their teeth food, it's justneanderthal, like their teeth
(16:50):
food.
It's just neanderthal, likeexactly yeah.
So their bodies were bulky,broad, strong and muscular.
Adults were between five feetand five foot seven and they
weighed between 140 to 180pounds.
It's believed that their bulkybodies and shorter limbs helped
to minimize the skin surfacearea to help them conserve heat
better.
It's also been suggested thattheir body proportions gave them
more power for close rangeambushes during hunting.
(17:13):
So we're all dying to talk aboutthis Neanderthal brains.
The stereotype, of course, isthat Neanderthals were pretty
dumb, right?
We've all seen the commercials,we've all seen the movies,
where Neanderthals are justportrayed as kind of like
(17:33):
fumbling buffoons.
Interestingly, their brainswere actually larger than the
brains of modern humans whichinsert millennial joke here and
they were quite intelligent.
We know that they were skilledtool makers and even developed
an innovative stone technologycalled the Leveloy technique
(17:57):
around 300,000 years ago.
Large prey up close.
They hunted things like bison.
Large prey up close.
They hunted things like bison,mammoths and reindeer, and this,
of course, meant that they werenot only just skilled hunters,
but they also had the ability tocommunicate on a very basic
level.
Because, let's face it, ifyou're trying to hunt down a
(18:17):
mammoth, it's a team effort andyou have to be able to
communicate some basic things toyour teammates.
I don't know what you call whoyou hunt with, but your hunting
party.
So while we don't know whatNeanderthals were capable of
saying and what they soundedlike, we do know that they had
(18:40):
similar vocal anatomy to us andtheir ear bones suggested that
they had a similar range ofhearing as us it.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Also, if they're doing organized hunts, they
probably had some form oflanguage, because you have to be
able, or at least the abilityto have like concepts of time,
because if you're talking, ifyou're planning out a hunt, you
need to have some idea thatthere's something in the future
that's going to happen.
So if we're going to talk aboutwhen we get here, you need to
(19:15):
be here and you need to be here.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Interesting, interesting.
I'm going to circle back onthat later on.
He'll tell me what yourthoughts are on that.
Um, so we also know that someneanderthals looked after their
sick and buried their dead,which suggests they were
compassionate and social beings.
They made art and jewelry.
So, um, they we actually haveevidence of artwork in spanish
(19:41):
caves.
What kind of art did they make?
They took some red pigment andthey made some very basic
geometric shapes.
They weren't necessarily Idon't know all my art terms but
they weren't representinganimals per se, but it's
believed that they wererepresenting more abstract ideas
with their artwork.
(20:02):
They made pieces of jewelry outof eagle talons, abstract ideas
with their, with their artwork.
Um, and they made jewelry, likethey made, um, pieces of
jewelry out of Eagle talons, oh,interesting.
So, yeah, they had a, they.
They had a very eclectic taste.
Yes, you would say um, yes, yes, um.
So we have archaeological andfossil evidence of Neanderthals
(20:26):
in Europe up until about 40,000years ago.
And after that, katie, they justseem to vanish.
They like go completely extinct.
So the question, of course, iswhy?
Why did they go extinct?
And, of course, a lot of peoplethink that they were simply
killed off by Homo sapiens.
(20:47):
Again, going back to howNeanderthals are portrayed in
movies and cartoons, people justhave always assumed that Homo
sapiens were just way moreintelligent than Neanderthals
and therefore they just went andkilled them all.
But I need to point out that,remember, homo sapiens and
(21:08):
Neanderthals were in eachother's territory, in places
like Europe, for more than10,000 years.
In other words, they coexistedfor like 10,000 years.
So while it's possible that someHomo sapiens killed off
Neanderthals, it's currentlybelieved by most researchers
that there were actually a lotmore, a lot of other factors
(21:30):
that contributed to thedisappearance of Neanderthals.
Rapid climate change may havebeen a factor.
Researchers have discoveredthat there were some pretty
extreme climate fluctuationsduring the last 100,000 years of
the Neanderthals' existence.
When these severe changes intemperature happened,
neanderthals, their animal andplant food sources were affected
(21:55):
and therefore it basicallybecame a survival of the fittest
for Neanderthals.
Many Neanderthals would havedied due to the lack of their
food sources, and those who wereleft were unable to build up
large populations, which likelyresulted in another factor,
(22:16):
which is inbreeding Research.
Yes, research of Neanderthal DNAindicates that Neanderthals
were low in numbers and geneticdiversity during the last 20,000
years of existence.
Inbreeding of course leads to alot of problems, including the
(22:36):
reduction of reproductivefitness, which again means just
lower numbers of Neanderthals.
And yeah, of course there isthe factor of competition with
Homo sapiens and whileNeanderthals weren't the
lumbering cotton-headednitty-mungans, that card, that's
(22:58):
like the best way I can come upwith to explain how we see
Neanderthals.
Okay, I can come up with toexplain how we see neanderthals
(23:20):
cartoons, movies, they all makethem out to just be like yes,
they're all portrayed like asbeing, yes, bumbling buffoons um
, yes, the way they'reanderthalbrain.
while larger than the brain of aHomo sapien, it was designed
for physicality and theprocessing of visual data, being
able to, you know, see reallywell and have a very strong body
.
Those are all things that arehelpful for hunting.
Leaves less room for thefrontal lobe, which helps with
(23:44):
planning.
So, kind of going back to whatyou said, katie, homo sapiens,
one reason why they did so wellis because they were really good
at planning and adapting todifferent situations.
So, like when the weather gotreally cold, they taught
themselves how to stitchclothing to keep themselves warm
.
They also adapted by eating avariety of foods, depending on
(24:10):
what the climate was like.
They figured out how to huntfrom a distance by throwing
spears and they learned how tomake nets for fishing so they
could really like diverse, likeyou said, diversify what they
were doing, not just relying ontall brains also didn't have a
(24:31):
lot of space for the parietallobe which helps with
communication.
So, while we think neanderthalswere able to communicate with
each other on a basic level,homo sapiens had the ability to
gossip, and I'm pretty sure Ibrought this up in another
episode that we did and I don'tremember what it was about.
But yes, it's true, believe itor not, the lack of the ability
(24:53):
to gossip may be another factorfor the disappearance of
Neanderthals.
Gossiping is actually reallyimportant for cultures, yes, and
it's way more important thanwhat we give it credit for.
So by gossiping, homo sapienswere able to get to know each
other on a really deep level andthey were able to learn who in
(25:14):
the group was dependable andtrustworthy or not.
This information allowed smallgroups of homo sapiens to
actually grow larger andcooperate better and form
tighter alliances.
We're talking groups of homosapiens of up to like 150 people
.
On the other hand, the lack ofability to gossip kept
(25:35):
Neanderthal groups pretty smalland prevented them from
expanding.
So, kind of circling back towhat you were saying about the
planning piece, I think theycould plan to an extent, but it
was the, the adaptation, likeyou said.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
It was that ability that they lacked, which
prevented them from growing likehomo sapiens and as we're
talking, I'm thinking it couldalso I'm also making a jump that
they were planning ahead of thehunts, like it could have just
been communication in the moment.
(26:11):
So, like you go there, you gothere and less, more, less of a
right.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
You know, yeah, and probably in the moment they,
everybody knew what their jobswere and if you're hunting like,
let's say, a I don't know howyou hunt a mammoth, but there
probably needs to be somebody inthe back, somebody on the sides
, I'm guessing.
Um, and so people neanderthalsprobably knew what their roles
were, but they, they couldn'tlike regroup and huddle
(26:38):
afterwards and be like let'sreflect and talk about what went
well, what could we do betternext time?
so all of this is to say thatyou know, in contrast to what
you know, media might tell you,neanderthals were really
(26:59):
intelligent for for what theywere able to do right for their,
their, their lives.
They were really good at whatthey did, but they just weren't
in the same league as Homosapiens and this is why they did
not succeed.
But not all was lost forNeanderthals.
Like I said, homo sapiens andNeanderthals lived side by side
(27:21):
for years and genetic researchshows that some of them shared
more than just the sameterritory, if you know what I
mean.
After sequencing Neanderthalgenomes from remains found in
Croatia, a team of researchersfound that all non-Africans
(27:41):
today have as much as 4% ofNeanderthal DNA in their genome.
So, katie, you might just havea little Neanderthal in you.
That's probably true.
Oh my God, katie, I didn't know.
I was going to have to do math.
(28:02):
Is there any?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
way to work out Laurie.
So what does 4% equate to Like?
How many great, great greatgrandparents?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I don't know.
It just means that there's achance.
There is like actually okay.
So if I understand thiscorrectly and again, there's a
reason why we have a historypodcast, not like a biology
podcast.
But my understanding is thepart, the genetic makeup, and
not a math.
(28:27):
You or I hypothetically mighthave the part if, if you have
hay allergies, cat allergies anddust allergies, you can thank
neanderthal dna for that.
I might have that, but I doknow that those three allergies
(28:49):
come from Neanderthal.
That's crazy Genomes.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Really, those are the only things that I've read
about.
That stood out.
Is there anything else that wecan thank?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
the first neanderthal relatives for anything else I
don't know yeah how much.
I mean how many cats wereneanderthals around, or maybe
that's the problem is theyweren't around cats well, I
(29:27):
don't, I want to saysaber-toothed tigers, but I
don't know if they they share acommon ancestor with modern
house cats, because I do knowthat modern house cats are a
product of like the middle east,like that's where they
originate from, but that thatalso kind of overlaps with
neanderthal, but not by a lot,it's like I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
The more the asia evolution pattern for modern
that also kind of overlaps withNeanderthal Denisovans, but not,
and again, it's like I don'tknow what the Like more the Asia
Evolution pattern for moderncats is either.
There you go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So, oh, so less.
So maybe they weren't supposedto it, so that's why they're
allergic to it.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I do.
I mean, do we?
But like, do you feel as badfor Neanderthals as you do like
Australopithecus afarensis?
I think it's because I think wefeel a stronger connection to
(30:25):
Neanderthals, perhaps justbecause they really do.
They were kind of the lastcutoff before Homo sapiens just
exploded and took overeverything.
You know, it's not like wedon't have any more branches of
our evolution, our evolutionarytree, as far as I know.
I don't know how that worksexactly, but I don't think we do
.
I think it's like Homo sapiensand that is it exactly.
(30:48):
But I don't think we do.
I think it's like homo sapiensand that is it.
Um, and so you, when you, whenyou look at like these, these
trees of evolution, it's like,oh, the neanderthals are inching
up, they're like almost rightthere with the homo sapiens, and
then it just stops.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
You're like oh, I do.
I do wonder how different wouldour society, our culture be if
they had been able to maintainso that you have these two?
I, I think, I think we wouldhave wiped them out eventually.
To be honest, I think it wouldhave been one of those either we
(31:22):
wipe them out or they wipe usout.
But it is very interestingthought experiment to think oh,
what if?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
they had been able to maintain for the last 40,000
years.
I feel like there's nearlyabout that.
It would be a very interestingexperiment.
Not George of the Jungle.
Yeah, Harry Henderson.
Harry and the Hendersons Isthat not what that is?
Oh, he's a Bigfoot.
Oh, that's true.
Harry and the Henders is thatnot what that is?
Oh, he's a Bigfoot.
(31:47):
Oh, that's true.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Harry and the Henders .
No, he was a Bigfoot, yeah, butyou know what I want to link
these together.
Maybe that's where we get,because in so many cultures you
have this story of these bigapes like oral traditions so
(32:12):
maybe that's where, at leastpartially, that's where it kind
of comes from, that you knowthis, this cultural remnant of
having to and now that you saythat, I completely take back
what I said about hair.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
hair, our evolutionary tree, is just like
homo sapiens, and that's it.
There's a whole group of peopleout there who would argue with
me and say that, no, likeBigfoot, right is a whole other
branch that we do notacknowledge in science, and so,
yes, I think you're absolutelyright.
It's something that we stillthink about and intrigues us
(32:48):
because of our connection to ourcommon ancestor.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
That's why I tell my children, when they're like
we're scared of the dark, I'mlike no.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
It's your evolution catching up with you.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You're not scared of the dark, you're scared of cave
bears, evolution catching upwith you scared of the dark.
Yes, you're scared of cavebears.
They don't exist anymore.
You're fine.
Yes, oh, I hate those cavebears there's no monsters under
your bed because there's no morecave bears.
You're fine, go to bed.
Good night, all right.
(33:26):
So, cindy, I got a littleexcited when you started, or you
.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You hinted no, get out, get out, abraham lincoln,
because this is why we are warrelated.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I did do it on purpose, I did do it we, we
scare me sometimes.
I'm just gonna say we're on thesame way.
I know it's it's.
We're tuned into the samefrequency.
So this least likely to succeedis all about the civil war
(34:00):
period's greatest screw-up, likerepeated screw-up, but yet he
still manages to have a prettysuccessful life.
I'll let you be the judge.
You can decide if he wassuccessful ultimately, or if he
was just, if his life was just awhole mess of calamities.
The person that I'm going to becovering is considered one of
(34:22):
the greatest characters of theCivil War who left a trail of
unpaid bills.
One of the greatest charactersof the Civil War who left a
trail of unpaid bills, brokenromances and political scandals
wherever he went.
This is none other than DanielEdgar Sickles.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I have no idea who you're talking about.
Have you ever heard of him?
Nope, nope, but you had me atbroken romances.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Buckle up Cindy.
He was born October 20th 1918or, according to other sources,
October 20th of 1825.
And we'll get into in a littlebit why there's a little bit of
a discrepancy.
He was born in New York City.
This is, for sure, known toSusan Marsh Sickles and George
(35:00):
Garrett Sickles.
His father was a patent lawyerand a politician.
The young Sickles trained as aprinter, but he eventually
attended the University of theCity of New York, which is now
New York University, where hestudied law and he was admitted
to the bar in 1843, but verysoon after opened his own legal
practice.
So after becoming firmlyentrenched in with the infamous
(35:25):
political organization thatcontrolled the New York social
and political scene known asTammany Hall which might be
setting off some AP historybells.
No.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, ap history.
They lost me at like in the1820s and then I was like done
for the semester.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, it was this organization where you know very
prominent politicians andeverything kind of came together
to kind of rig elections anddecide who was going to be
getting which spots and, youknow, undercut political rivals
and it was the whole scandal.
There was rigged elections andbribery up the wazoo and Sickles
(36:09):
was just in the midst of it.
So he was eventually elected toa state senate seat in 1847.
So his first big scandalactually occurred in 1851, when
a then 32-year-old Sickles fellin love with a young woman by
the name of Teresa Baggioli.
She was the daughter of awealthy and well-renowned
(36:32):
Italian singing teacher.
So Teresa was described asexceptionally brilliant,
learning to speak five languagesat a very early age, and they
seemed like a perfect match.
He was politically connectedand from a good family.
She was well-to-do and cultured.
However, there was only onelittle problem Teresa was 15.
(36:53):
Oh shoot, mm-mm, mm-mm.
And Sickles was friends withher uncle and she spent a lot of
time at her grandfather's housewhere she lived and her uncle
lived and Sickles had actuallyknown her since she was an
infant.
But they only becamereacquainted in 1851.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
So how old is he at this point?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
He's 32.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Oh, he's 32.
He's 32.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
But he did.
After they started to kind ofget together, he did create this
rumor that he was actually bornin 1825 to try and make the age
difference, not so creepy?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh yeah, so basically what you're saying is all of
the online dating BS startedhundreds of years ago.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
We have Daniel Sickles to thank for that.
Daniel Sickles we have to thankhim.
So, like I said, aside fromlike the really kind of creepy
age difference that we've gotgoing on there, sickles was a
notorious.
Lothario and Teresa's familywere not excited at this little
budding romance, and her familyactually forbade the two of them
(38:06):
to see each other.
So what does this couple decideto do?
They eloped and were married ina civil ceremony at the new
york new york city hall inseptember of 18 1852, and so
theresa's family had no, nooption except to just like
accept it like this is what'sgoing to be, and she very
quickly had a church weddingbecause seven months later
(38:30):
theresa would give birth to thecouple's only child, laura, in
1853.
At the same year that laura wasborn, sickles was appointed to
a lower ranking diplomaticposition at the us embassy in
lond.
So Sickles, however, chose toleave his wife a new baby at
home, instead, bringing one,miss Fanny White, with him on
(38:53):
the journey.
I could do a whole episode onFanny White.
She was the Victorian-eraprostitute version of the
ultimate girl boss.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
That's it, we we're coming up with a topic so you
can do fanny white, oh, ultimate, what did you call it?
We'll call it ultimatevictorian prostitute.
Girl boss, girl boss.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
That'll be our next episode she, I mean she, she got
it done, like I I don't want togive too much, like I said
something for another episode,but yes, we should definitely.
Definitely we'll circle backand she was involved with
sickles at least since 1847 andthey had a very close
(39:44):
relationship.
He wasn't just some john like,they were romantically involved,
um, and I mean he had taken herwith him up to albany when he
had to, you know, participate instate senate, um goings on um,
and he would like even introduceher, like when he brought her
up to albany with him and shewould stay over in his hotel
(40:06):
when he would come introduce her, when he brought her up to
Albany with him and she wouldstay over in his hotel.
When he would come down tobreakfast, he'd introduce her to
people at the breakfast table.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So he wasn't trying to hide her.
Meanwhile he's got a wife andbaby at home, and so they're
catching wind of this, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yes, he was officially censured by the Whigs
when he brought her to visitthe State Assembly Chamber.
It turns out that the New YorkState Senate does not have a.
Take your sex worker to workday.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
That surprises me.
That really shocks me.
Can you believe it?
I'm not a big sex worker.
I'm shocked.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I mean especially given some of the scandals.
I mean Anthony Weiner, like Ican go on that's exactly what
I'm saying yes.
So this trip to london, youmight want to kind of consider
it like a bit huge.
Sorry, I screwed up by knockingup and marrying my friend's
little sister gift, or actuallyhis niece.
(41:01):
So oopsies, sorry about thatBecause according to historians,
when White found out whatSickles had done and that he was
actually going to be marryingTeresa, she allegedly tracked
him down to a hotel and startedto beat him with a writing crop.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Good for her.
Good for her and I love thatit's a writing crop.
It could have been anythingright.
It could have been like a rock,a stick, a broken bottle she's
like no.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
So you know, sickles brought her to london and to
make up for this little boo-boo,he brought her out publicly
with him everywhere he went, soto dinner, to the theater, to
even like official diplomaticevents.
He presented her to queenVictoria herself and,
interestingly, he introduced heras Miss Bennett from New York.
(41:52):
He had no qualms about kind ofpulling the wool over Victoria's
eyes because he felt like hewas kind of thumbing his nose at
the monarchy, like pulling oneover on her, and he gave her the
name Miss Bennett as a way tokind of taunt one of his
political rivals and a man thathe absolutely detested, a man by
(42:12):
the name of James GordonBennett, who was the editor of a
newspaper, the New York Herald.
Take that, james, he plays fastand loose this Sickles guy if
you haven't already picked up onthat.
So he returned to the US in 1855when he was elected to the New
York State Senate again and thento the House of Representatives
(42:36):
.
He and Teresa eventually movedto Washington DC where they
lived on a house on LafayetteSquare which is actually
directly across the street fromthe White House actually
directly across the street fromthe White House and I like to
imagine that they might haveattended some like block parties
, because soon after they movedto Washington they became fast
friends with Abraham Lincoln andif the rumors are true, he
(42:57):
became even better friends withMary Todd.
No no, no, yep, yes, that's arumor.
Yes, she apparently gave theirdaughter like a gold bracelet
that has an inscription likehistorians have this somewhere.
It says like with like.
(43:17):
My deepest affection to Laurafrom like Mary Todd so like I
know, mary.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Todd Lingen is not everybody's favorite she's not
everybody's cup of tea, but thatwould be very ballsy of her.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, I mean, it was more or less an open secret in
Washington political circlesthat neither of the Sickles were
particularly faithful to eachother, and this really didn't
become an issue until ananonymous letter was sent to
Daniel Sickles in February of1859, informing him of the
details of an affair that hiswife was having with a very
(43:55):
notable Washingtonian at thetime.
Allegedly, Teresa had becomeensnared by the guiles of a
widower dubbed the handsomestman in Washington, a man named
Philip Barton Key II, who wasthe district attorney for
Washington DC and also the sonof none other than Francis Scott
(44:15):
Key, the author of theStar-Spangled Banner.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
I love this tangle.
Wadby Weave, this is.
I love it.
He's just the most random.
He's the most random connection.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I wish that in history classes this is
something that our teachersbrought up more, that, like
American history, everybodyknows everybody.
Like everybody was hanging outwith everybody, everybody, knew
everybody's business and it'slike, like you know, we covered
this, like john adams andbenjamin franklin were slumber
(44:52):
party buddies and yes, come,come on, there's just yeah, so
much either.
It's so rich, I know it's sogood, it's so good so,
unfortunately for the two lovers, they were not very discreet
with their love affair, and Keywould actually visit Teresa at
her home.
He would go for rides with herin her carriage and even escort
(45:13):
her through the congressionalcemetery for a little slightly
spooky canoodling.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
How romantic let's be honest that would be.
When I say how romantic, I meanhow romantic that would be if
someone took me on a date tolike a historical cemetery for
some canoodling like I'm all inand this is also the Victorian
era.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
This is like peak spooky canoodling time Come on
100%.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yes, obviously, it's the place to be.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
When Sickles learned of her indiscretions he flew
into a rage and he confrontedTeresa.
Initially she denied all theallegations that you know
they're not true.
But eventually she did comeclean to her husband and he
forced her to write a detailedconfession letter that would
eventually be published frontpage of Harper's Weekly.
(46:06):
Whoa, he's not a forgiving man,whoa, whoa.
So only a few days afterlearning the truth about his
wife's affair, on february 27th1859, sickles looked out his
window to see none other thankeys outside his home,
attempting to signal theresa bylike waving a handkerchief at
(46:28):
her bedroom window.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Has he tried singing the Star Spangled Banner?
Caw, caw, caw.
Oh say, can you see I'm in theroad and need to talk, could you
?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
imagine Holding up a boombox.
It's a bad idea.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
yes, yes oh, I would love yes I want to be the
neighbor.
I want to, I want to find.
Okay, a true gem of an artifactwould be a letter from the
neighbor to like her sister orsomewhere, but like he won't
believe what happened, thismorning.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
So key, after failing to signal theresa to come down
to him, he starts to walk away.
So sickles sends a friend outto go and try and stop key,
while sickles threw on anovercoat concealing three
pistols.
Why three?
Because one's too few, four'stoo many.
Gotta have come on.
(47:33):
Come on, cindy, come on, fairenough.
So sickles caught up with Keyesat the corner of Madison Place
Northwest and PennsylvaniaAvenue, which is right across
the street from the White House.
So Sickles loudly accused Keyesof desecrating his honor and he
fired off five shots at pointblank range, only two of which
(47:54):
hit Key, key in the groin andjust below his heart.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Wait, I'm sorry.
Yeah, he brought three pistols.
Yes, he shot five At pointblank range and only two hit him
.
Yeah, I mean, can you, can yousay amateur or what?
Speaker 2 (48:11):
That's why he brought he brought the three pistols
Because he's like this isn'tgoing to end well.
So that's why he brought thethree pistols because he's like
this isn't going to end well.
So I just need to have a backupplan and, to be fair, there
were like misfire, like he wentto go shoot and there was a
misfire and at this time sure,sure, yeah, yeah, yeah firearms
aren't the most reliable, so yougotta, you know, bring a backup
for the backup.
(48:32):
And Key died pretty much on thespot, like he.
He passed away very, veryquickly.
Sickles was quickly taken intocustody and he confessed to the
murder.
Also, it didn't like hurt thatthey had 12 witnesses to this
crime so the entire neighborhood.
So what followed was quitepossibly the biggest celebrity
(48:55):
trial of the age.
Sickles was represented by thelegal genius Edwin M Stanton,
who would later become Lincoln'sSecretary of War.
Stanton argued that Sickleskilled Keyes because he was
driven mad by the idea that hiswife had forsaken their marriage
vows.
This was the first documenteduse of the plea of insanity in
the American courts, and it onlytook one hour for a jury of
(49:19):
Sickles' peers to acquit him ofall charges.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
No, get out, they were all men weren't they?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
They were, and he was seen as being, like, a defender
of, like, the honor of marriage, honor and the chastity of
women.
And, yeah, yeah, he wasacquitted.
He was acquitted and heimmediately went back to his
duties as a US congressman, ofcourse.
So the outbreak of the AmericanCivil War seemed like the
perfect opportunity for Sicklesto leverage the country's new
(49:50):
patriotic fervor to get hisconstituents to kind of forget
about that little murder that hecommitted, because there were,
believe it or not, some peoplewho were still like felt as if
he should have been heldaccountable for his crimes.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Can you believe that?
I mean, there's always somebodyright.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Sickles had been a commissioned officer in the 12th
Regiment of the New YorkMilitia since the early 1850s
and when, you know, the warkicked off, he worked
relentlessly to recruit eageryoung soldiers.
For his efforts he was promotedto brigadier general.
He was not satisfied with thisat all and he started this
lobbying campaign to get some ofhis friends in Washington to
(50:30):
eventually promote him to therank of general.
And he was actually the onlynon-West Point graduate to hold
this rank at that time.
So he was a political appointeeand not really.
He didn't really earn it.
However, historians do agreethat he did have some
battlefield successes.
However, his most controversialengagement with the Confederate
(50:53):
Army also happens to be ournation's, one of our nation's
most famous battles, the Battleof Gettysburg.
Oh, so on July 2nd 1863, whichwas the second day of the Battle
of Gettysburg, major GeneralGeorge Meade ordered Sickles and
his men into a defensiveposition on a hill known as
Little Round Top.
So I've seen a map of thepositions of all the different
(51:16):
generals and you want to thinkof it as like a big upside down?
U, almost like a rainbow.
So where Sickles was stationedis kind of like towards the
bottom left leg of the rainbowand he was not really pleased
with this because he felt likeit was kind of beneath him to be
put on this little tiny hill,literally known as Little Round
(51:39):
Top.
What a brat, what a brat.
He thought that there was abetter position.
That was slightly forward, anarea known as Peach Orchard,
which is about a mile away fromwhere he was.
So he ordered, without anypermission given.
He just decided to order hismen kind of forward and this
(52:00):
created almost like a a littlebit of a wedge formation and
kind of broke that lower part ofthat, that rainbow leg.
So there was kind of like a gapin the union forces and Meade
was absolutely furious at thisbecause the Confederates were
able to almost encircle Sicklesand his men.
(52:21):
But Meade sent his men awayfrom the rest of that rainbow
shape to kind of support Sicklesand make sure that they didn't
get absolutely decimated.
Sickles did end up losingapproximately like 30% of his
men in battle and he himself wassignificantly injured.
A cannonball shattered hisright leg, whoa.
(52:43):
And when he learned that hisleg would have to be amputated
above the knee, sickles had aplan to kind of make this work
to his advantage.
Of course he did?
He had recently learned of anew program by the Army Surgeon
General at the newly foundedArmy Medical Museum in
Washington DC.
They were trying to collectwartime artifacts and any kind
(53:06):
of anatomical anomalies oranything that had happened on
the battlefield.
So he had his leg that had tobe amputated put in like this
coffin shaped box and sent towashington dc with a card that
read with the compliments ofmajor general des katie, we're
gonna have to take a pin andstick it in what you just said.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
We're gonna have to get her back around to and do a
whole other episode on whatyou're just talking about.
You're saying that during, asthe war was actually going on,
yes, people were thinking aboutthe future.
Yes, and not, like you know,the preserving the union, but
rather like we got to collectpeople's weird body parts.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
yes, like all the crazy stuff that can happen in
wartime, we need to documentthis.
We need to save this forposterity.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Oh, my gosh, I love, do, I love?
I think I love that people likethis exist.
There's always, I mean, justlike when you think times are so
bad, there's somebody off tothe side, being like we got to
collect body parts, just likewe're dealing with a war.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
We're dealing with but this is so cool.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
But people are dying, but this is so cool yes, I
think I like that, I think Ilove that about humanity I'm not
sure that there are historyweirdos in every epoch of of
humans yes, well, like goingback, I feel like we always
circle back to napoleon's pp.
Yeah, but it's the same thing.
Somebody was like you know,someday this could be worth
(54:47):
something someone's gonna wantto see this.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
He was like the, the um, the equivalent of like a
boomer mom who's like we can'tthrow away any of your toys.
You gotta save your beaniebabies, they're gonna be worth
something someday.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Pull hands, peepee you go to your mother-in-law's
garage and it's just full oflike legs and peepees.
Somebody had to do it.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
Somebody can't just let these things go waste, no
one I gotta give this to mydaughter-in-law someday.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
I need to be able to go to her house at christmas and
be like remember that baby Igave you.
Where is that?
No, I don't want to see it.
It's so unappreciated.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
So just this is actually a great segue, because,
to ensure that his gift wasappreciated, sickles would go
and visit his leg on theanniversary of the loss of his
leg.
Are you kidding me?
He would, and the first timethat he went to go visit it he
(56:07):
was pissed off because theydidn't the museum did not save
his foot as well.
It's only like a small portionof his leg that it shows like
where it was broken.
He was pissed off because theydidn't save his foot too.
It's only a small portion ofhis leg that shows where it was
broken.
He was pissed off because theydidn't save his foot too.
It's like I sent you everythingwhy?
Speaker 1 (56:20):
didn't you keep it all?
I have to side with him on this, though that would bother me
too.
If that was my leg and my foot,I'd be like was it not good
enough for you?
Speaker 2 (56:29):
It's only worth it.
It's worth something if youhave the entire set.
Once you separate it out, it'snot it's not worth anything
anymore.
And, cindy, you can go and seehis leg.
It's still on display.
The museum is now the nationalmuseum of health and medicine.
And you, road trip, road trip.
(56:52):
We're gonna go see napoleon'spp and then we're gonna go see
his leg.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Boom, amazing, amazing I, and then we're gonna
go see like boom, amazing,amazing, I'm in, I'm in so
sickles also coupled hisdonation with an aggressive
attempt to slander major generalgeorge meade.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Um, because sickles felt slighted by meade that he
didn't get like his full supportto do this.
And sickles believed that hisactions had actually saved the
day, that because he actedalmost like a sacrificial lamb
and the Confederates swarmedthem that he, because he drew
them away he is the one who madesure that the Battle of
(57:26):
Gettysburg was won for the Union.
He would actually writeanonymous letters to newspapers
extolling his bravery and hismilitary prowess, extolling his
bravery and his military prowess.
And in some small way hisefforts did pay off because he
eventually did get a Medal ofHonor for his quote, most
conspicuous gallantry in thefield, vigorously contested the
(57:48):
advance of the enemy andcontinuing to encourage his
troops after himself beingseverely wounded.
But it should be noted, he didnot get the honor until 34 years
after his injury.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
He didn't do what he was told to do.
He didn't stay where he wassupposed to stay.
Why does he get a medal?
There's got to be moneyinvolved, don't you think?
Don't you think he slipped likea few little abraham not
abraham one would be super cheapand two that would be weird.
(58:23):
He slept some benjaminfranklin's and he must have.
Speaker 2 (58:28):
And if you think back to, or or remember um, when I
did the, the podcast on thecongressional medal of honor
right after um, the, the civilwar, like that, that like
post-civil war period, therewere a lot of people.
They were just like handing outmedals of honor like candy.
So he was just one of those.
(58:49):
Like here you go, buddy, thereyou go, everybody gets one good
job.
You showed up, so after job,you showed up.
You showed up.
So after the war, you showed up.
Participation.
That diminishes it.
I mean, he did get injured, yes, but they were not given out at
the standard at which they aregiven today.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
Again, he didn't do what he was told to do, so he
got in and I mean I wasn't there.
I don't know all the details,but I'm pretty sure there's a
chance that he wouldn't have hadthis injury if he had just
Right, maybe, maybe, I mean yes,and historians are also very
torn as to whether his actionsreally did help or if it was a
(59:30):
hindrance.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
I mean, ultimately the Union won the Battle of
Gettysburg, they ultimately wonthe war, but it would have been
a little bit easier if he hadjust not gone rogue.
You know, who knows, who knows.
But after the war Sicklescontinued to work in politics,
(59:51):
both domestically during theReconstruction and also as a
diplomat to Colombia and Spain,where Sickles allegedly had an
affair with the deposed QueenIsabella II of Spain.
Good for him.
Shoot your shot.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
He just he fell upward like that.
Yes, Son of a gun.
Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
He did eventually retire, but even with his
retirement, sickles was not freeof controversy.
No-transcript.
(01:00:37):
He embezzled 27 000, which isthe equivalent about 850 000 in
us dollars today.
Um, and that is the reason whybecause he embezzled that those
funds.
If you go to gettysburg thereare statues to um each of and
busts to each of the generalsthat served that day, and
(01:00:59):
monuments.
Sickles, his unit is the onlyone that does not have a statue
of the actual man or a bust,because it's not that he
embezzled the money for his ownmonuments and it never got made,
it never got put up.
So in the end he managed tokind of like erase himself from
(01:01:20):
the historical record because ofhis greed.
He played himself, he playedhimself and he did eventually
pass away in 1914.
But, cindy, that is the storyof Daniel Sickles, the Civil War
era's greatest screw up.
So what do you think?
Do you think he was the leastlikely to succeed?
(01:01:41):
Or did he, like you said, didhe fumble the ball upwards?
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
kind of sounds like some other people in politics
that I've heard about people whojust get lucky.
Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
You're like you're only where you are because of
your connections yeah, yeah andmoney and you're yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
What do you think the moral of his story is Katie?
Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
um, I feel like it's like an anti-hero story.
It's like, just if you, ifyou're so flipping full of
yourself that you don't believethe hype, you can get away with
anything, including murder.
Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Yeah, I feel like.
I feel like that's what it'skind of a theme that I'm seeing
come up again and again in ourstories, where you can just be
so bad, but you're remembered.
People talk about you, theywrite about you.
You're so bad that you madehistory, you know what I mean.
(01:02:44):
Like we just kind of see timeand time again.
So again, the bar is low.
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
The bar is low and so everyone is capable of
greatness everyone's capable ofending up on a history podcast
exactly yes, yes so how many,how many murders do you think I
have to commit before I can geton a plane?
No, no, no, don't even answerthat, doubtless that got really
(01:03:12):
dark really fast.
No, no, how many.
How many cancers can I cure?
Let's reframe that.
How many cancers can I curebefore I get immortalized?
Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
You have to walk tall and carry three pistols.
That goes on a t-shirt.
That goes on a t-shirt.
Or stand tall and carry ariding crop.
Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Yes, you go, Fanny White.
Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Well, Katie, that was an excellent, excellent story.
Thank you for enlightening me.
Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I enjoyed yours immensely.
I learned a lot.
I feel like I knew some thingsabout the Neanderthals, but then
I did so much new learningtoday about why they probably
went extinct.
I thought it was just thathumans murdered them all, but I
didn't know that there wereother factors.
Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Look at us educating ourselves and each other.
I know Cheers, katie, cheers toeducation.
Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
And fancy tickling, I don't know.
Thank you,
80.
Happy summer.
Last time we recorded it wasstill spring.
Hi, cindy Happy summer and wehad some pretty grand plans to
record a lot this summer.
But you know what?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Oh my God, it's summer, so oh yeah, yes, Totally
, we still have time.
We could cram a whole bunchmore in before the end of the
summer.
You know it's doable.
Airplane.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
We're both going to be traveling.
That's plenty of time to youknow.
Add to the list.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Do you do that Instead of interacting with our
families, Just like going to betraveling there's plenty of time
to you know, add to the listinstead of interacting with our
families, Just you know Reading.
No, no, I do, I have very slylyText messages, but it's their
fault.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
You know there's a lot of if you sit next to an
older person they have a largefont.
Like you cannot not read it,but what a joy, what a joy to
like peek over and see somebodyworking on a history story.
What a dream, Katie.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I would be so excited .
I feel like that would be a bigrelief from some of the people
that I've sat next to on planes.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
before I've had one woman she was like certifiably
crazy and was trying to convertme to her religion.
I was like no, I'm good, Thankyou.
Thank you very much so anyway,I'm hoping that when I got on a
plane I will give somebody thethrill of a lifetime.
Maybe it'll spark conversation.
Maybe they'll sparkconversation.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Maybe they'll learn something.
Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes, at the very least we get one subscriber,
something Okay, so something youdid not know, katie.
So you know that we use there'sa certain platform that we use
for uploading our podcast, sothis platform recently came out
(02:24):
with some special features,including an AI-generated
summary of our podcast.
There's more, but I thoughtwe're worth it, so I signed up
for the AI part of the platformto get the AI to generate a
summary of our last podcast, ourlast episode.
(02:46):
Yeah, katie, it's so good.
Okay, so, to jog your memoryback to May, we our topic was in
another life, right?
Okay?
So, in the words of AI, yes,here's what our, our episode is
all about.
Yes, yes, yes.
(03:08):
Listen to your seatbelts for awhimsical detour into the life
of a Victorian girl who claimeda lineage tracing back to the
sands of ancient Egypt.
Was she merely a history buff,or was there something more
spiritual, bridging the gapbetween her Victorian life and
the era of pharaohs?
We'll share a chuckle over howa Katy Perry tune can inspire
(03:30):
story ideas and how identity cansometimes feel like a game of
temporal hopscotch.
Ending on a gripping note,we'll recount the nail-biting
escapades of Yoshie Shiratori,the prison break magician of
1930s and 40s Japan.
His relentless pursuit offreedom against all odds not
(03:51):
only sheds light on the era'sprison conditions, but also
inspires a conversation aboutresilience in the face of life's
toughest challenges.
So get ready to laugh, ponderand find a bit of yourself in
the incredible stories ofindividuals who transcended the
ordinary, all shared with thewarmth and camaraderie you've
(04:13):
come to expect from Katie and methat was right.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
You know what that was an emotional roller coaster,
but it ended on a high note.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That was oh, thank you, ai, we have warmth and when
the our robot overlords aregonna take over for you and me,
don't you?
Feel so good about yourself,don't you?
You feel like this is like damn, this is a good podcast, oh no,
oh, that was really sweet.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
I do.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So anyway, I thought that was very flattering.
If the robots say so.
It's a bunch of BS.
Personally, like too much AI,too much Flattering.
Like too much AI, too muchFlattering, but too much so I'm
going to cancel.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yes, yes no.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I was going to say the.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
AI did its job, or maybe like $5.50.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I would tune into that and then halfway through
I'd be like, no, I was sold adifferent story, this is not.
This is not what I expected.
So, anyway, I just thought thatwas hilarious.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
But this is not what I signed up for.
What's our topic this month?
That's really cool, cindy.
This is not what I signed upfor.
What's our topic this month?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
That's really cool, cindy, yes, cindy, oh, I'm a
Least likely to succeedEveryone's high school yearbook.
Should I just rip up my storywith Abraham Lincoln?
Speaker 2 (05:57):
No, I'm kidding, no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, no, no
, this, no, no, this is perfect,cindy, this is perfect.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
My lack of reading skills no.
I'm just kidding.
That was a whimsy, cindy.
I did least likely to succeedtoo.
I'm disappointing you.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Got me good, oh my God no you got me so good.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I know we all would love to hear the story of
Abraham Lincoln.
I'm not even mad, I'm justimpressed I've got something
else planned for you, katie,something else to tickle your
fancy and the fancies of all.
That's wrong.
I'm not.
That's not appropriate.
I'm a married woman.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Listen, cindy, whatever you do in your free
time, the fancy you want totickle, all the fancies.
Little fancy tickler, you dowhat you do.
I'm not here to judge, mostmost likely to speaking of high
school superlatives.
Fun fact cind Cindy was namedtickler, I'm proud to say.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
For the last 20 years I have lived up to my
reputation.
Oh sweet Jesus, where is thisgoing?
No, katie, would you like yourfancy tickles?
I'm crying.
(07:47):
When we came up with a themefor this story, right Least
likely to succeed, I pretty muchknew right away what the topic
was that I wanted to cover, butI still wanted to do a little
research to see what was outthere.
I wanted to do a little tick tosee what was out there.
(08:07):
I wanted to do a littletickling, a little Google
tickling, something, google.
Okay, I partook in the Googlingand, interestingly, okay.
So there are so many storiesout there about people who
shouldn't have succeeded butthey did, despite all the odds.
I wanted to share a story ofpeople who flat out did not
(08:31):
succeed.
I don't want to share anAmerican success story, no, just
a story of people who did notsucceed whatsoever.
So, katie, my least likely tosucceed story is brought to you
by Neanderthals.
Yes, yes.
So first of all, I feel there'sa small part of me, the entire
(08:55):
species that feels like mybritches are too big.
Is that a saying?
There's a part of me that feelslike I'm too big for my
britches when I say neanderthalsit's like aunt too big for your
britches like I say auntbecause it feels.
(09:16):
It feels more sophisticated likeI, I feel like I'm more
educated when I say aunt, butthen I'm like but Cindy, you are
from New Jersey.
Like you were born in NewJersey, you should say aunt and
so like.
When it comes to Neanderthals,I know the proper pronunciation
is Neanderthals, but then I'mlike Cindy, you were born in New
(09:37):
Jersey.
You should say Neanderthals.
So I am going to sayNeanderthals because it's
technically the correct way tosay it those of you who say
Neanderthals, I'm right therewith you.
I'm right there with you inspirit.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I feel like you have a full right to do that, because
you are the proprietor of avery successful history podcast
so you go, girl you go I thoughtyou were saying because I have
a podcast, I have a right toanything.
No, I mean, you can say both.
I damn well, please.
I think so.
(10:25):
Yes, this is the equivalent ofthe public square, so to speak.
It's our goddamn FirstAmendment.
Right to say whatever the hellwe want, right Neanderthals.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
So I have a question for you when were you when you
first learned that modern humansdid not evolve from
Neanderthals?
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yes, oh, like biology class when it finally clicked
that, like we are not descendedfrom monkeys, it's all the
product of our own individualyou know evolutionary path,
(11:11):
which is funny because Iliterally had this conversation
with my six-year-old.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
I'm so glad that you're raising her right, katie,
because that's the kind of you.
You're a great mom?
I don't think so.
I think well, it's funnybecause I actually asked.
I tested this out on my husbandbecause he's a really smart guy
, but he honey don't take thisthe wrong way when you hear this
but he represents like theaverage person.
(11:34):
He's like I do.
I've never literally thoughtabout Neanderthals.
Neanderthals.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I've never thought about youthals, neanderthals,
I've never thought about, youknow, the roman empire and so I
said I said so.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
When I say neanderthals, like uh.
I asked him um, do you thinkthat humans came from
neanderthals, or when did theycome from neanderthals, or
something?
He's like I don't know, like Ithink yeah, neanderthals were
early humans, or something.
So, anyway, I floated this onmy husband.
Most people at one time oranother either thought, or many
(12:12):
still think, like my sweethusband, that modern humans
evolved from Neanderthals, andthis just isn't true.
When we learn about humanevolution, like in school, we
picture a line of humansprogressing from apes to us,
right, modern humans.
But evolution, like you areteaching your daughter, katie,
(12:34):
is a little bit more complexthan that.
So I'm going to try to keepthis as simple as I possibly can
.
Let's go back 12 million yearsago, and this is when a common
ancestor to hominins, aka humans, gorillas, uh, bonobos I always
want to say bonobos, that'salso the new jersey and me
(12:56):
coming out like no rein it incindy neanderthals, bonobos.
So anyway, hominins, gorillas,bonobos and gorillas they all
shared a common ancestor, um,and this common ancestor lived
(13:17):
in africa.
Now africa is basically groundzero for human evolution.
The easiest way to explain thisis that gorillas eventually
break off and they do their ownevolution thing, which
ultimately results in the modernday Western and Eastern
gorillas.
Around 8 million years ago, thelast common ancestor for
(13:38):
hominins, chimpanzees andbonobos lived.
Bonobos and chimpanzees thenbreak off and do their own
evolution thing, continue toevolve into different species,
with most scientists recognizingabout 15 to 20 different
species of early humans, whichincludes neanderthals.
Now scientists don't agree onhow all of these species were
(14:02):
related to each other if theythey were related at all and
which species just becametotally extinct.
Two and 1.8 million years ago,early humans migrated out of
Africa and into Asia, and thenthey migrated to Europe between
1.5 and 1 million years ago.
It's important to note thatHomo sapiens, aka modern humans
(14:25):
like you and me, katie theydidn't appear until 300,000
years ago when they emerged fromAfrica.
So when Homo sapiens came ontothe scene, it wasn't like bam,
now we're all Homo sapiens.
Yeah, there were other speciesof archaic humans still around.
Neanderthals evolved in Europeand Asia while modern humans
(14:48):
again.
Our species, homo sapiens, wereevolving in Africa, so things
were happening like.
At the same time, I want topoint out that there was another
group of archaic humans calledthe Denisovans.
Denisovans, oh, denisovans,denisovans.
(15:09):
There was.
There was another group ofarchaic humans called the
denisovans, who overlapped withthe neanderthals and early homo
sapiens, who were onlydiscovered in 2008, and they
still kind of remain a mystery.
So I'm gonna discussexclusively neanderthals for
this episode.
But I mean no shade to theDenisovans.
I'm sure they're gray people,but we're just going to skip
(15:31):
over them right now.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
We're ignoring them again, just like we have for
most of human history.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I feel guilt On fossil evidence.
Neanderthals were wellestablished in Europe by like
400,000 years ago.
Neanderthals ranged from Walesand Portugal and all the way
across to the Altai Mountains inSiberia.
So that's a pretty wide rangethat Neanderthals had.
So some of the like classic,hallmarky characteristics of
(16:04):
Neanderthals were, of course, along, low skull and a prominent
brow ridge above the eyes.
Their noses were big and wide,which interestingly, may have
been an actual adaptation to thecold weather.
So scientists think that thebigger the nose, the easier it
was to moisten and warm the airthat neanderthals would have
(16:25):
breathed in, which I thought waskind of cool.
Neanderthals did not have bigchins, but their front teeth
were very large, demonstratingthat they use their teeth to
help prepare food and othermaterials.
So, like when kids want to justgo and like open their chips
with their teeth food, it's justneanderthal, like their teeth
(16:50):
food.
It's just neanderthal, likeexactly yeah.
So their bodies were bulky,broad, strong and muscular.
Adults were between five feetand five foot seven and they
weighed between 140 to 180pounds.
It's believed that their bulkybodies and shorter limbs helped
to minimize the skin surfacearea to help them conserve heat
better.
It's also been suggested thattheir body proportions gave them
more power for close rangeambushes during hunting.
(17:13):
So we're all dying to talk aboutthis Neanderthal brains.
The stereotype, of course, isthat Neanderthals were pretty
dumb, right?
We've all seen the commercials,we've all seen the movies,
where Neanderthals are justportrayed as kind of like
(17:33):
fumbling buffoons.
Interestingly, their brainswere actually larger than the
brains of modern humans whichinsert millennial joke here and
they were quite intelligent.
We know that they were skilledtool makers and even developed
an innovative stone technologycalled the Leveloy technique
(17:57):
around 300,000 years ago.
Large prey up close.
They hunted things like bison.
Large prey up close.
They hunted things like bison,mammoths and reindeer, and this,
of course, meant that they werenot only just skilled hunters,
but they also had the ability tocommunicate on a very basic
level.
Because, let's face it, ifyou're trying to hunt down a
(18:17):
mammoth, it's a team effort andyou have to be able to
communicate some basic things toyour teammates.
I don't know what you call whoyou hunt with, but your hunting
party.
So while we don't know whatNeanderthals were capable of
saying and what they soundedlike, we do know that they had
(18:40):
similar vocal anatomy to us andtheir ear bones suggested that
they had a similar range ofhearing as us it.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Also, if they're doing organized hunts, they
probably had some form oflanguage, because you have to be
able, or at least the abilityto have like concepts of time,
because if you're talking, ifyou're planning out a hunt, you
need to have some idea thatthere's something in the future
that's going to happen.
So if we're going to talk aboutwhen we get here, you need to
(19:15):
be here and you need to be here.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Interesting, interesting.
I'm going to circle back onthat later on.
He'll tell me what yourthoughts are on that.
Um, so we also know that someneanderthals looked after their
sick and buried their dead,which suggests they were
compassionate and social beings.
They made art and jewelry.
So, um, they we actually haveevidence of artwork in spanish
(19:41):
caves.
What kind of art did they make?
They took some red pigment andthey made some very basic
geometric shapes.
They weren't necessarily Idon't know all my art terms but
they weren't representinganimals per se, but it's
believed that they wererepresenting more abstract ideas
with their artwork.
(20:02):
They made pieces of jewelry outof eagle talons, abstract ideas
with their, with their artwork.
Um, and they made jewelry, likethey made, um, pieces of
jewelry out of Eagle talons, oh,interesting.
So, yeah, they had a, they.
They had a very eclectic taste.
Yes, you would say um, yes, yes, um.
So we have archaeological andfossil evidence of Neanderthals
(20:26):
in Europe up until about 40,000years ago.
And after that, katie, they justseem to vanish.
They like go completely extinct.
So the question, of course, iswhy?
Why did they go extinct?
And, of course, a lot of peoplethink that they were simply
killed off by Homo sapiens.
(20:47):
Again, going back to howNeanderthals are portrayed in
movies and cartoons, people justhave always assumed that Homo
sapiens were just way moreintelligent than Neanderthals
and therefore they just went andkilled them all.
But I need to point out that,remember, homo sapiens and
(21:08):
Neanderthals were in eachother's territory, in places
like Europe, for more than10,000 years.
In other words, they coexistedfor like 10,000 years.
So while it's possible that someHomo sapiens killed off
Neanderthals, it's currentlybelieved by most researchers
that there were actually a lotmore, a lot of other factors
(21:30):
that contributed to thedisappearance of Neanderthals.
Rapid climate change may havebeen a factor.
Researchers have discoveredthat there were some pretty
extreme climate fluctuationsduring the last 100,000 years of
the Neanderthals' existence.
When these severe changes intemperature happened,
neanderthals, their animal andplant food sources were affected
(21:55):
and therefore it basicallybecame a survival of the fittest
for Neanderthals.
Many Neanderthals would havedied due to the lack of their
food sources, and those who wereleft were unable to build up
large populations, which likelyresulted in another factor,
(22:16):
which is inbreeding Research.
Yes, research of Neanderthal DNAindicates that Neanderthals
were low in numbers and geneticdiversity during the last 20,000
years of existence.
Inbreeding of course leads to alot of problems, including the
(22:36):
reduction of reproductivefitness, which again means just
lower numbers of Neanderthals.
And yeah, of course there isthe factor of competition with
Homo sapiens and whileNeanderthals weren't the
lumbering cotton-headednitty-mungans, that card, that's
(22:58):
like the best way I can come upwith to explain how we see
Neanderthals.
Okay, I can come up with toexplain how we see neanderthals
(23:20):
cartoons, movies, they all makethem out to just be like yes,
they're all portrayed like asbeing, yes, bumbling buffoons um
, yes, the way they'reanderthalbrain.
while larger than the brain of aHomo sapien, it was designed
for physicality and theprocessing of visual data, being
able to, you know, see reallywell and have a very strong body
.
Those are all things that arehelpful for hunting.
Leaves less room for thefrontal lobe, which helps with
(23:44):
planning.
So, kind of going back to whatyou said, katie, homo sapiens,
one reason why they did so wellis because they were really good
at planning and adapting todifferent situations.
So, like when the weather gotreally cold, they taught
themselves how to stitchclothing to keep themselves warm
.
They also adapted by eating avariety of foods, depending on
(24:10):
what the climate was like.
They figured out how to huntfrom a distance by throwing
spears and they learned how tomake nets for fishing so they
could really like diverse, likeyou said, diversify what they
were doing, not just relying ontall brains also didn't have a
(24:31):
lot of space for the parietallobe which helps with
communication.
So, while we think neanderthalswere able to communicate with
each other on a basic level,homo sapiens had the ability to
gossip, and I'm pretty sure Ibrought this up in another
episode that we did and I don'tremember what it was about.
But yes, it's true, believe itor not, the lack of the ability
(24:53):
to gossip may be another factorfor the disappearance of
Neanderthals.
Gossiping is actually reallyimportant for cultures, yes, and
it's way more important thanwhat we give it credit for.
So by gossiping, homo sapienswere able to get to know each
other on a really deep level andthey were able to learn who in
(25:14):
the group was dependable andtrustworthy or not.
This information allowed smallgroups of homo sapiens to
actually grow larger andcooperate better and form
tighter alliances.
We're talking groups of homosapiens of up to like 150 people
.
On the other hand, the lack ofability to gossip kept
(25:35):
Neanderthal groups pretty smalland prevented them from
expanding.
So, kind of circling back towhat you were saying about the
planning piece, I think theycould plan to an extent, but it
was the, the adaptation, likeyou said.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
It was that ability that they lacked, which
prevented them from growing likehomo sapiens and as we're
talking, I'm thinking it couldalso I'm also making a jump that
they were planning ahead of thehunts, like it could have just
been communication in the moment.
(26:11):
So, like you go there, you gothere and less, more, less of a
right.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
You know, yeah, and probably in the moment they,
everybody knew what their jobswere and if you're hunting like,
let's say, a I don't know howyou hunt a mammoth, but there
probably needs to be somebody inthe back, somebody on the sides
, I'm guessing.
Um, and so people neanderthalsprobably knew what their roles
were, but they, they couldn'tlike regroup and huddle
(26:38):
afterwards and be like let'sreflect and talk about what went
well, what could we do betternext time?
so all of this is to say thatyou know, in contrast to what
you know, media might tell you,neanderthals were really
(26:59):
intelligent for for what theywere able to do right for their,
their, their lives.
They were really good at whatthey did, but they just weren't
in the same league as Homosapiens and this is why they did
not succeed.
But not all was lost forNeanderthals.
Like I said, homo sapiens andNeanderthals lived side by side
(27:21):
for years and genetic researchshows that some of them shared
more than just the sameterritory, if you know what I
mean.
After sequencing Neanderthalgenomes from remains found in
Croatia, a team of researchersfound that all non-Africans
(27:41):
today have as much as 4% ofNeanderthal DNA in their genome.
So, katie, you might just havea little Neanderthal in you.
That's probably true.
Oh my God, katie, I didn't know.
I was going to have to do math.
(28:02):
Is there any?
Speaker 2 (28:02):
way to work out Laurie.
So what does 4% equate to Like?
How many great, great greatgrandparents?
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I don't know.
It just means that there's achance.
There is like actually okay.
So if I understand thiscorrectly and again, there's a
reason why we have a historypodcast, not like a biology
podcast.
But my understanding is thepart, the genetic makeup, and
not a math.
(28:27):
You or I hypothetically mighthave the part if, if you have
hay allergies, cat allergies anddust allergies, you can thank
neanderthal dna for that.
I might have that, but I doknow that those three allergies
(28:49):
come from Neanderthal.
That's crazy Genomes.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Really, those are the only things that I've read
about.
That stood out.
Is there anything else that wecan thank?
Speaker 2 (29:06):
the first neanderthal relatives for anything else I
don't know yeah how much.
I mean how many cats wereneanderthals around, or maybe
that's the problem is theyweren't around cats well, I
(29:27):
don't, I want to saysaber-toothed tigers, but I
don't know if they they share acommon ancestor with modern
house cats, because I do knowthat modern house cats are a
product of like the middle east,like that's where they
originate from, but that thatalso kind of overlaps with
neanderthal, but not by a lot,it's like I don't know what.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
The more the asia evolution pattern for modern
that also kind of overlaps withNeanderthal Denisovans, but not,
and again, it's like I don'tknow what the Like more the Asia
Evolution pattern for moderncats is either.
There you go, there you go.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
So, oh, so less.
So maybe they weren't supposedto it, so that's why they're
allergic to it.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I do.
I mean, do we?
But like, do you feel as badfor Neanderthals as you do like
Australopithecus afarensis?
I think it's because I think wefeel a stronger connection to
(30:25):
Neanderthals, perhaps justbecause they really do.
They were kind of the lastcutoff before Homo sapiens just
exploded and took overeverything.
You know, it's not like wedon't have any more branches of
our evolution, our evolutionarytree, as far as I know.
I don't know how that worksexactly, but I don't think we do
.
I think it's like Homo sapiensand that is it exactly.
(30:48):
But I don't think we do.
I think it's like homo sapiensand that is it.
Um, and so you, when you, whenyou look at like these, these
trees of evolution, it's like,oh, the neanderthals are inching
up, they're like almost rightthere with the homo sapiens, and
then it just stops.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
You're like oh, I do.
I do wonder how different wouldour society, our culture be if
they had been able to maintainso that you have these two?
I, I think, I think we wouldhave wiped them out eventually.
To be honest, I think it wouldhave been one of those either we
(31:22):
wipe them out or they wipe usout.
But it is very interestingthought experiment to think oh,
what if?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
they had been able to maintain for the last 40,000
years.
I feel like there's nearlyabout that.
It would be a very interestingexperiment.
Not George of the Jungle.
Yeah, Harry Henderson.
Harry and the Hendersons Isthat not what that is?
Oh, he's a Bigfoot.
Oh, that's true.
Harry and the Henders is thatnot what that is?
Oh, he's a Bigfoot.
(31:47):
Oh, that's true.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Harry and the Henders .
No, he was a Bigfoot, yeah, butyou know what I want to link
these together.
Maybe that's where we get,because in so many cultures you
have this story of these bigapes like oral traditions so
(32:12):
maybe that's where, at leastpartially, that's where it kind
of comes from, that you knowthis, this cultural remnant of
having to and now that you saythat, I completely take back
what I said about hair.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
hair, our evolutionary tree, is just like
homo sapiens, and that's it.
There's a whole group of peopleout there who would argue with
me and say that, no, likeBigfoot, right is a whole other
branch that we do notacknowledge in science, and so,
yes, I think you're absolutelyright.
It's something that we stillthink about and intrigues us
(32:48):
because of our connection to ourcommon ancestor.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
That's why I tell my children, when they're like
we're scared of the dark, I'mlike no.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
It's your evolution catching up with you.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
You're not scared of the dark, you're scared of cave
bears, evolution catching upwith you scared of the dark.
Yes, you're scared of cavebears.
They don't exist anymore.
You're fine.
Yes, oh, I hate those cavebears there's no monsters under
your bed because there's no morecave bears.
You're fine, go to bed.
Good night, all right.
(33:26):
So, cindy, I got a littleexcited when you started, or you
.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
You hinted no, get out, get out, abraham lincoln,
because this is why we are warrelated.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I did do it on purpose, I did do it we, we
scare me sometimes.
I'm just gonna say we're on thesame way.
I know it's it's.
We're tuned into the samefrequency.
So this least likely to succeedis all about the civil war
(34:00):
period's greatest screw-up, likerepeated screw-up, but yet he
still manages to have a prettysuccessful life.
I'll let you be the judge.
You can decide if he wassuccessful ultimately, or if he
was just, if his life was just awhole mess of calamities.
The person that I'm going to becovering is considered one of
(34:22):
the greatest characters of theCivil War who left a trail of
unpaid bills.
One of the greatest charactersof the Civil War who left a
trail of unpaid bills, brokenromances and political scandals
wherever he went.
This is none other than DanielEdgar Sickles.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I have no idea who you're talking about.
Have you ever heard of him?
Nope, nope, but you had me atbroken romances.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Buckle up Cindy.
He was born October 20th 1918or, according to other sources,
October 20th of 1825.
And we'll get into in a littlebit why there's a little bit of
a discrepancy.
He was born in New York City.
This is, for sure, known toSusan Marsh Sickles and George
(35:00):
Garrett Sickles.
His father was a patent lawyerand a politician.
The young Sickles trained as aprinter, but he eventually
attended the University of theCity of New York, which is now
New York University, where hestudied law and he was admitted
to the bar in 1843, but verysoon after opened his own legal
practice.
So after becoming firmlyentrenched in with the infamous
(35:25):
political organization thatcontrolled the New York social
and political scene known asTammany Hall which might be
setting off some AP historybells.
No.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Yeah, ap history.
They lost me at like in the1820s and then I was like done
for the semester.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Well, it was this organization where you know very
prominent politicians andeverything kind of came together
to kind of rig elections anddecide who was going to be
getting which spots and, youknow, undercut political rivals
and it was the whole scandal.
There was rigged elections andbribery up the wazoo and Sickles
(36:09):
was just in the midst of it.
So he was eventually elected toa state senate seat in 1847.
So his first big scandalactually occurred in 1851, when
a then 32-year-old Sickles fellin love with a young woman by
the name of Teresa Baggioli.
She was the daughter of awealthy and well-renowned
(36:32):
Italian singing teacher.
So Teresa was described asexceptionally brilliant,
learning to speak five languagesat a very early age, and they
seemed like a perfect match.
He was politically connectedand from a good family.
She was well-to-do and cultured.
However, there was only onelittle problem Teresa was 15.
(36:53):
Oh shoot, mm-mm, mm-mm.
And Sickles was friends withher uncle and she spent a lot of
time at her grandfather's housewhere she lived and her uncle
lived and Sickles had actuallyknown her since she was an
infant.
But they only becamereacquainted in 1851.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
So how old is he at this point?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
He's 32.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Oh, he's 32.
He's 32.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
But he did.
After they started to kind ofget together, he did create this
rumor that he was actually bornin 1825 to try and make the age
difference, not so creepy?
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh yeah, so basically what you're saying is all of
the online dating BS startedhundreds of years ago.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
We have Daniel Sickles to thank for that.
Daniel Sickles we have to thankhim.
So, like I said, aside fromlike the really kind of creepy
age difference that we've gotgoing on there, sickles was a
notorious.
Lothario and Teresa's familywere not excited at this little
budding romance, and her familyactually forbade the two of them
(38:06):
to see each other.
So what does this couple decideto do?
They eloped and were married ina civil ceremony at the new
york new york city hall inseptember of 18 1852, and so
theresa's family had no, nooption except to just like
accept it like this is what'sgoing to be, and she very
quickly had a church weddingbecause seven months later
(38:30):
theresa would give birth to thecouple's only child, laura, in
1853.
At the same year that laura wasborn, sickles was appointed to
a lower ranking diplomaticposition at the us embassy in
lond.
So Sickles, however, chose toleave his wife a new baby at
home, instead, bringing one,miss Fanny White, with him on
(38:53):
the journey.
I could do a whole episode onFanny White.
She was the Victorian-eraprostitute version of the
ultimate girl boss.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
That's it, we we're coming up with a topic so you
can do fanny white, oh, ultimate, what did you call it?
We'll call it ultimatevictorian prostitute.
Girl boss, girl boss.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
That'll be our next episode she, I mean she, she got
it done, like I I don't want togive too much, like I said
something for another episode,but yes, we should definitely.
Definitely we'll circle backand she was involved with
sickles at least since 1847 andthey had a very close
(39:44):
relationship.
He wasn't just some john like,they were romantically involved,
um, and I mean he had taken herwith him up to albany when he
had to, you know, participate instate senate, um goings on um,
and he would like even introduceher, like when he brought her
up to albany with him and shewould stay over in his hotel
(40:06):
when he would come introduce her, when he brought her up to
Albany with him and she wouldstay over in his hotel.
When he would come down tobreakfast, he'd introduce her to
people at the breakfast table.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
So he wasn't trying to hide her.
Meanwhile he's got a wife andbaby at home, and so they're
catching wind of this, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yes, he was officially censured by the Whigs
when he brought her to visitthe State Assembly Chamber.
It turns out that the New YorkState Senate does not have a.
Take your sex worker to workday.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
That surprises me.
That really shocks me.
Can you believe it?
I'm not a big sex worker.
I'm shocked.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I mean especially given some of the scandals.
I mean Anthony Weiner, like Ican go on that's exactly what
I'm saying yes.
So this trip to london, youmight want to kind of consider
it like a bit huge.
Sorry, I screwed up by knockingup and marrying my friend's
little sister gift, or actuallyhis niece.
(41:01):
So oopsies, sorry about thatBecause according to historians,
when White found out whatSickles had done and that he was
actually going to be marryingTeresa, she allegedly tracked
him down to a hotel and startedto beat him with a writing crop.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Good for her.
Good for her and I love thatit's a writing crop.
It could have been anythingright.
It could have been like a rock,a stick, a broken bottle she's
like no.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
So you know, sickles brought her to london and to
make up for this little boo-boo,he brought her out publicly
with him everywhere he went, soto dinner, to the theater, to
even like official diplomaticevents.
He presented her to queenVictoria herself and,
interestingly, he introduced heras Miss Bennett from New York.
(41:52):
He had no qualms about kind ofpulling the wool over Victoria's
eyes because he felt like hewas kind of thumbing his nose at
the monarchy, like pulling oneover on her, and he gave her the
name Miss Bennett as a way tokind of taunt one of his
political rivals and a man thathe absolutely detested, a man by
(42:12):
the name of James GordonBennett, who was the editor of a
newspaper, the New York Herald.
Take that, james, he plays fastand loose this Sickles guy if
you haven't already picked up onthat.
So he returned to the US in 1855when he was elected to the New
York State Senate again and thento the House of Representatives
(42:36):
.
He and Teresa eventually movedto Washington DC where they
lived on a house on LafayetteSquare which is actually
directly across the street fromthe White House actually
directly across the street fromthe White House and I like to
imagine that they might haveattended some like block parties
, because soon after they movedto Washington they became fast
friends with Abraham Lincoln andif the rumors are true, he
(42:57):
became even better friends withMary Todd.
No no, no, yep, yes, that's arumor.
Yes, she apparently gave theirdaughter like a gold bracelet
that has an inscription likehistorians have this somewhere.
It says like with like.
(43:17):
My deepest affection to Laurafrom like Mary Todd so like I
know, mary.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Todd Lingen is not everybody's favorite she's not
everybody's cup of tea, but thatwould be very ballsy of her.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, I mean, it was more or less an open secret in
Washington political circlesthat neither of the Sickles were
particularly faithful to eachother, and this really didn't
become an issue until ananonymous letter was sent to
Daniel Sickles in February of1859, informing him of the
details of an affair that hiswife was having with a very
(43:55):
notable Washingtonian at thetime.
Allegedly, Teresa had becomeensnared by the guiles of a
widower dubbed the handsomestman in Washington, a man named
Philip Barton Key II, who wasthe district attorney for
Washington DC and also the sonof none other than Francis Scott
(44:15):
Key, the author of theStar-Spangled Banner.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
I love this tangle.
Wadby Weave, this is.
I love it.
He's just the most random.
He's the most random connection.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I wish that in history classes this is
something that our teachersbrought up more, that, like
American history, everybodyknows everybody.
Like everybody was hanging outwith everybody, everybody, knew
everybody's business and it'slike, like you know, we covered
this, like john adams andbenjamin franklin were slumber
(44:52):
party buddies and yes, come,come on, there's just yeah, so
much either.
It's so rich, I know it's sogood, it's so good so,
unfortunately for the two lovers, they were not very discreet
with their love affair, and Keywould actually visit Teresa at
her home.
He would go for rides with herin her carriage and even escort
(45:13):
her through the congressionalcemetery for a little slightly
spooky canoodling.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
How romantic let's be honest that would be.
When I say how romantic, I meanhow romantic that would be if
someone took me on a date tolike a historical cemetery for
some canoodling like I'm all inand this is also the Victorian
era.
Speaker 2 (45:36):
This is like peak spooky canoodling time Come on
100%.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
Yes, obviously, it's the place to be.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
When Sickles learned of her indiscretions he flew
into a rage and he confrontedTeresa.
Initially she denied all theallegations that you know
they're not true.
But eventually she did comeclean to her husband and he
forced her to write a detailedconfession letter that would
eventually be published frontpage of Harper's Weekly.
(46:06):
Whoa, he's not a forgiving man,whoa, whoa.
So only a few days afterlearning the truth about his
wife's affair, on february 27th1859, sickles looked out his
window to see none other thankeys outside his home,
attempting to signal theresa bylike waving a handkerchief at
(46:28):
her bedroom window.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Has he tried singing the Star Spangled Banner?
Caw, caw, caw.
Oh say, can you see I'm in theroad and need to talk, could you
?
Speaker 2 (46:47):
imagine Holding up a boombox.
It's a bad idea.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
yes, yes oh, I would love yes I want to be the
neighbor.
I want to, I want to find.
Okay, a true gem of an artifactwould be a letter from the
neighbor to like her sister orsomewhere, but like he won't
believe what happened, thismorning.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
So key, after failing to signal theresa to come down
to him, he starts to walk away.
So sickles sends a friend outto go and try and stop key,
while sickles threw on anovercoat concealing three
pistols.
Why three?
Because one's too few, four'stoo many.
Gotta have come on.
(47:33):
Come on, cindy, come on, fairenough.
So sickles caught up with Keyesat the corner of Madison Place
Northwest and PennsylvaniaAvenue, which is right across
the street from the White House.
So Sickles loudly accused Keyesof desecrating his honor and he
fired off five shots at pointblank range, only two of which
(47:54):
hit Key, key in the groin andjust below his heart.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Wait, I'm sorry.
Yeah, he brought three pistols.
Yes, he shot five At pointblank range and only two hit him
.
Yeah, I mean, can you, can yousay amateur or what?
Speaker 2 (48:11):
That's why he brought he brought the three pistols
Because he's like this isn'tgoing to end well.
So that's why he brought thethree pistols because he's like
this isn't going to end well.
So I just need to have a backupplan and, to be fair, there
were like misfire, like he wentto go shoot and there was a
misfire and at this time sure,sure, yeah, yeah, yeah firearms
aren't the most reliable, so yougotta, you know, bring a backup
for the backup.
(48:32):
And Key died pretty much on thespot, like he.
He passed away very, veryquickly.
Sickles was quickly taken intocustody and he confessed to the
murder.
Also, it didn't like hurt thatthey had 12 witnesses to this
crime so the entire neighborhood.
So what followed was quitepossibly the biggest celebrity
(48:55):
trial of the age.
Sickles was represented by thelegal genius Edwin M Stanton,
who would later become Lincoln'sSecretary of War.
Stanton argued that Sickleskilled Keyes because he was
driven mad by the idea that hiswife had forsaken their marriage
vows.
This was the first documenteduse of the plea of insanity in
the American courts, and it onlytook one hour for a jury of
(49:19):
Sickles' peers to acquit him ofall charges.
Speaker 1 (49:23):
No, get out, they were all men weren't they?
Speaker 2 (49:27):
They were, and he was seen as being, like, a defender
of, like, the honor of marriage, honor and the chastity of
women.
And, yeah, yeah, he wasacquitted.
He was acquitted and heimmediately went back to his
duties as a US congressman, ofcourse.
So the outbreak of the AmericanCivil War seemed like the
perfect opportunity for Sicklesto leverage the country's new
(49:50):
patriotic fervor to get hisconstituents to kind of forget
about that little murder that hecommitted, because there were,
believe it or not, some peoplewho were still like felt as if
he should have been heldaccountable for his crimes.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Can you believe that?
I mean, there's always somebodyright.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Sickles had been a commissioned officer in the 12th
Regiment of the New YorkMilitia since the early 1850s
and when, you know, the warkicked off, he worked
relentlessly to recruit eageryoung soldiers.
For his efforts he was promotedto brigadier general.
He was not satisfied with thisat all and he started this
lobbying campaign to get some ofhis friends in Washington to
(50:30):
eventually promote him to therank of general.
And he was actually the onlynon-West Point graduate to hold
this rank at that time.
So he was a political appointeeand not really.
He didn't really earn it.
However, historians do agreethat he did have some
battlefield successes.
However, his most controversialengagement with the Confederate
(50:53):
Army also happens to be ournation's, one of our nation's
most famous battles, the Battleof Gettysburg.
Oh, so on July 2nd 1863, whichwas the second day of the Battle
of Gettysburg, major GeneralGeorge Meade ordered Sickles and
his men into a defensiveposition on a hill known as
Little Round Top.
So I've seen a map of thepositions of all the different
(51:16):
generals and you want to thinkof it as like a big upside down?
U, almost like a rainbow.
So where Sickles was stationedis kind of like towards the
bottom left leg of the rainbowand he was not really pleased
with this because he felt likeit was kind of beneath him to be
put on this little tiny hill,literally known as Little Round
(51:39):
Top.
What a brat, what a brat.
He thought that there was abetter position.
That was slightly forward, anarea known as Peach Orchard,
which is about a mile away fromwhere he was.
So he ordered, without anypermission given.
He just decided to order hismen kind of forward and this
(52:00):
created almost like a a littlebit of a wedge formation and
kind of broke that lower part ofthat, that rainbow leg.
So there was kind of like a gapin the union forces and Meade
was absolutely furious at thisbecause the Confederates were
able to almost encircle Sicklesand his men.
(52:21):
But Meade sent his men awayfrom the rest of that rainbow
shape to kind of support Sicklesand make sure that they didn't
get absolutely decimated.
Sickles did end up losingapproximately like 30% of his
men in battle and he himself wassignificantly injured.
A cannonball shattered hisright leg, whoa.
(52:43):
And when he learned that hisleg would have to be amputated
above the knee, sickles had aplan to kind of make this work
to his advantage.
Of course he did?
He had recently learned of anew program by the Army Surgeon
General at the newly foundedArmy Medical Museum in
Washington DC.
They were trying to collectwartime artifacts and any kind
(53:06):
of anatomical anomalies oranything that had happened on
the battlefield.
So he had his leg that had tobe amputated put in like this
coffin shaped box and sent towashington dc with a card that
read with the compliments ofmajor general des katie, we're
gonna have to take a pin andstick it in what you just said.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
We're gonna have to get her back around to and do a
whole other episode on whatyou're just talking about.
You're saying that during, asthe war was actually going on,
yes, people were thinking aboutthe future.
Yes, and not, like you know,the preserving the union, but
rather like we got to collectpeople's weird body parts.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
yes, like all the crazy stuff that can happen in
wartime, we need to documentthis.
We need to save this forposterity.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
Oh, my gosh, I love, do, I love?
I think I love that people likethis exist.
There's always, I mean, justlike when you think times are so
bad, there's somebody off tothe side, being like we got to
collect body parts, just likewe're dealing with a war.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
We're dealing with but this is so cool.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
But people are dying, but this is so cool yes, I
think I like that, I think Ilove that about humanity I'm not
sure that there are historyweirdos in every epoch of of
humans yes, well, like goingback, I feel like we always
circle back to napoleon's pp.
Yeah, but it's the same thing.
Somebody was like you know,someday this could be worth
(54:47):
something someone's gonna wantto see this.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
He was like the, the um, the equivalent of like a
boomer mom who's like we can'tthrow away any of your toys.
You gotta save your beaniebabies, they're gonna be worth
something someday.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Pull hands, peepee you go to your mother-in-law's
garage and it's just full oflike legs and peepees.
Somebody had to do it.
Speaker 2 (55:17):
Somebody can't just let these things go waste, no
one I gotta give this to mydaughter-in-law someday.
Speaker 1 (55:27):
I need to be able to go to her house at christmas and
be like remember that baby Igave you.
Where is that?
No, I don't want to see it.
It's so unappreciated.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
So just this is actually a great segue, because,
to ensure that his gift wasappreciated, sickles would go
and visit his leg on theanniversary of the loss of his
leg.
Are you kidding me?
He would, and the first timethat he went to go visit it he
(56:07):
was pissed off because theydidn't the museum did not save
his foot as well.
It's only like a small portionof his leg that it shows like
where it was broken.
He was pissed off because theydidn't save his foot too.
It's only a small portion ofhis leg that shows where it was
broken.
He was pissed off because theydidn't save his foot too.
It's like I sent you everythingwhy?
Speaker 1 (56:20):
didn't you keep it all?
I have to side with him on this, though that would bother me
too.
If that was my leg and my foot,I'd be like was it not good
enough for you?
Speaker 2 (56:29):
It's only worth it.
It's worth something if youhave the entire set.
Once you separate it out, it'snot it's not worth anything
anymore.
And, cindy, you can go and seehis leg.
It's still on display.
The museum is now the nationalmuseum of health and medicine.
And you, road trip, road trip.
(56:52):
We're gonna go see napoleon'spp and then we're gonna go see
his leg.
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Boom, amazing, amazing I, and then we're gonna
go see like boom, amazing,amazing, I'm in, I'm in so
sickles also coupled hisdonation with an aggressive
attempt to slander major generalgeorge meade.
Speaker 2 (57:06):
Um, because sickles felt slighted by meade that he
didn't get like his full supportto do this.
And sickles believed that hisactions had actually saved the
day, that because he actedalmost like a sacrificial lamb
and the Confederates swarmedthem that he, because he drew
them away he is the one who madesure that the Battle of
(57:26):
Gettysburg was won for the Union.
He would actually writeanonymous letters to newspapers
extolling his bravery and hismilitary prowess, extolling his
bravery and his military prowess.
And in some small way hisefforts did pay off because he
eventually did get a Medal ofHonor for his quote, most
conspicuous gallantry in thefield, vigorously contested the
(57:48):
advance of the enemy andcontinuing to encourage his
troops after himself beingseverely wounded.
But it should be noted, he didnot get the honor until 34 years
after his injury.
Speaker 1 (58:01):
He didn't do what he was told to do.
He didn't stay where he wassupposed to stay.
Why does he get a medal?
There's got to be moneyinvolved, don't you think?
Don't you think he slipped likea few little abraham not
abraham one would be super cheapand two that would be weird.
(58:23):
He slept some benjaminfranklin's and he must have.
Speaker 2 (58:28):
And if you think back to, or or remember um, when I
did the, the podcast on thecongressional medal of honor
right after um, the, the civilwar, like that, that like
post-civil war period, therewere a lot of people.
They were just like handing outmedals of honor like candy.
So he was just one of those.
(58:49):
Like here you go, buddy, thereyou go, everybody gets one good
job.
You showed up, so after job,you showed up.
You showed up.
So after the war, you showed up.
Participation.
That diminishes it.
I mean, he did get injured, yes, but they were not given out at
the standard at which they aregiven today.
Speaker 1 (59:08):
Again, he didn't do what he was told to do, so he
got in and I mean I wasn't there.
I don't know all the details,but I'm pretty sure there's a
chance that he wouldn't have hadthis injury if he had just
Right, maybe, maybe, I mean yes,and historians are also very
torn as to whether his actionsreally did help or if it was a
(59:30):
hindrance.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
I mean, ultimately the Union won the Battle of
Gettysburg, they ultimately wonthe war, but it would have been
a little bit easier if he hadjust not gone rogue.
You know, who knows, who knows.
But after the war Sicklescontinued to work in politics,
(59:51):
both domestically during theReconstruction and also as a
diplomat to Colombia and Spain,where Sickles allegedly had an
affair with the deposed QueenIsabella II of Spain.
Good for him.
Shoot your shot.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
He just he fell upward like that.
Yes, Son of a gun.
Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
He did eventually retire, but even with his
retirement, sickles was not freeof controversy.
No-transcript.
(01:00:37):
He embezzled 27 000, which isthe equivalent about 850 000 in
us dollars today.
Um, and that is the reason whybecause he embezzled that those
funds.
If you go to gettysburg thereare statues to um each of and
busts to each of the generalsthat served that day, and
(01:00:59):
monuments.
Sickles, his unit is the onlyone that does not have a statue
of the actual man or a bust,because it's not that he
embezzled the money for his ownmonuments and it never got made,
it never got put up.
So in the end he managed tokind of like erase himself from
(01:01:20):
the historical record because ofhis greed.
He played himself, he playedhimself and he did eventually
pass away in 1914.
But, cindy, that is the storyof Daniel Sickles, the Civil War
era's greatest screw up.
So what do you think?
Do you think he was the leastlikely to succeed?
(01:01:41):
Or did he, like you said, didhe fumble the ball upwards?
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
kind of sounds like some other people in politics
that I've heard about people whojust get lucky.
Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
You're like you're only where you are because of
your connections yeah, yeah andmoney and you're yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
What do you think the moral of his story is Katie?
Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
um, I feel like it's like an anti-hero story.
It's like, just if you, ifyou're so flipping full of
yourself that you don't believethe hype, you can get away with
anything, including murder.
Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Yeah, I feel like.
I feel like that's what it'skind of a theme that I'm seeing
come up again and again in ourstories, where you can just be
so bad, but you're remembered.
People talk about you, theywrite about you.
You're so bad that you madehistory, you know what I mean.
(01:02:44):
Like we just kind of see timeand time again.
So again, the bar is low.
Speaker 2 (01:02:50):
The bar is low and so everyone is capable of
greatness everyone's capable ofending up on a history podcast
exactly yes, yes so how many,how many murders do you think I
have to commit before I can geton a plane?
No, no, no, don't even answerthat, doubtless that got really
(01:03:12):
dark really fast.
No, no, how many.
How many cancers can I cure?
Let's reframe that.
How many cancers can I curebefore I get immortalized?
Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
You have to walk tall and carry three pistols.
That goes on a t-shirt.
That goes on a t-shirt.
Or stand tall and carry ariding crop.
Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Yes, you go, Fanny White.
Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Well, Katie, that was an excellent, excellent story.
Thank you for enlightening me.
Speaker 2 (01:03:42):
I enjoyed yours immensely.
I learned a lot.
I feel like I knew some thingsabout the Neanderthals, but then
I did so much new learningtoday about why they probably
went extinct.
I thought it was just thathumans murdered them all, but I
didn't know that there wereother factors.
Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
Look at us educating ourselves and each other.
I know Cheers, katie, cheers toeducation.
Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
And fancy tickling, I don't know.
Thank you,
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com