Murdery of the Century 10th vs 16th

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It's our annual Murder of the Century showdown! The end of 2024 delivers us the 10th Century vs 16th Century. Katie shares the story of Nikephoros II Phokas and Cindy shares the story of Peter Stubbe. 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hi Katie, Hi Cindy, Happy end of 2024.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh, I can't believe it's wrapping up.
It's gone by so quickly, butI'm also glad to see it go.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
I think we've only done maybe four episodes this
year.
So when you count the number ofdays in a year by how many
podcasts you've done, it reallyhas flown by.
I would like the record to showthat I am wearing a present
from Katie oh hooray, and Iwon't read it out loud, but it

(00:56):
may or may not have the name ofthe Memorial Park where Katie
and I did our archaeologicalwork in high school and
basically like forged ourfriendship when our shared love
of all things, history and ourdesire to literally uncover the
past, if you will.
I feel like the only otherpeople to really I mean truly
like solidify theirrelationships over archaeology
like Indiana Jones Maybe notsolidify relationships, I don't

(01:19):
know Fight Nazis, Fight Nazis,Indiana Jones.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
We've had a shocking lack of Nazi fighting in our our
friendship.
Cindy, that's true.
I'm a little disappointed, Notgonna lie.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
I think it's a good thing.
I would agree.
I would agree, yeah, and I alsohave another gift from Katie my
mug From boss, straight out ofBoston, massachusetts.
It says I like my coffee blackand my tea in the harbor.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Aww, it's like a perfect sentiment.
It's how I live my life.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
But the joke's on everybody else, because I'm
drinking a latte out of this,which I'm pretty sure that's
Italian.
Joke's on you, you, sons of therevolution, sons of liberty,
sons of liberty.

Speaker 2 (02:13):
speaking of which?
Speaking of the opportunity,yes, I had the opportunity to go
finally go to the paul reverehouse over winter break.
How was it?
Revere house over winter break?
How was it so the guy who runslike the booth to get in he's an
octogenarian?
I'm pretty sure he was at thebattle of Lexington and Concord,
concord himself.
Oh, it costs like $6 to get inas an adult.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Is that reasonable?
I feel like that, I feel likeit's a bargain.

Speaker 2 (02:42):
That is a that's a steal, that is an absolute
bargain.
I did make the mistake of goingwith my two small children and
let me just like.
They have zero, and I get it.
They're little, they have zeroappreciation for history, but
it's just like.
Guys, can we just spend morethan five seconds in each room?
I want to read.
I'm a read the placards kind ofperson and they're just like
this is boring, but read theplacards kind of person and

(03:10):
they're just like this is boring.
But to be fair, they felt thatway about all the other museums
we took them to, including theart museum.
We're like look, it's a vangogh, it's a dead guy.
They're like where the snacks.
So, but I was very pleased tosee that they did have some like
original furniture thatbelonged to, uh, like the
reveres themselves.
A lot of stuff was either likefrom the time period but didn't
belong to them, but there weresome things that was like a
chest of drawers and like asewing table, some chairs.

(03:33):
It was really interesting, andthey all did have some like
silver work they had done.
But I mean we should do anepisode about Paul Revere
himself because, like in depth.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Just because he Not like the episode I already did.
No, no, no, no, no, no becausehe, because never mind, no, no,
and it was a that was way backin the beginning, when we were
doing like this week in history,and I think I did a very brief
little thing about paul revere'sride but he did.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
You know how many.
I mean, I'm sure you knew thisin your research.
But how many jobs he had, washe like a jack of all trades?
Pretty much he was like hey,let's do some silver smith thing
.
Oh, let's do some dentistry.
Oh, let's do some, uh, likeship building.
Let's do some ship building,let's do this, let's do that,
let's do some printmaking on theside.

(04:28):
Let's ride a horse in the night, let's ride a horse and warn
people about the British coming.
Exactly, he had a lot of sidegigs.
He was a little crypto.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
But see, here's the thing, okay, we both have
daughters, yes.
But see, here's the thing, okay, we both have daughters, yes.
If your daughter now in the21st century brought home a guy
and you were like so tell us,like paul, tell us about
yourself, what do you do?
And this guy was like oh, I doa little silversmithing over
here, I do a little print makingover here, I do a little

(05:02):
shipbuilding over here, wouldyou be concerned?

Speaker 2 (05:04):
or would you be like oh, he is a, he's a good old
paul revere I think I'd be alittle concerned because it's
like, okay, how are you gonna,where you're gonna get your
insurance from dude, how are yougonna build that uh, 401k I
mean.
But but I mean, if he, he wasall self-employed, I guess

(05:25):
that's a different conversation.
An entrepreneur, anentrepreneur, if you will, real
Elon Musk of silversmithry.

Speaker 1 (05:35):
Well, good, katie, I'm glad you enjoyed your winter
break.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
I did, I did.
And now I'm just ready for mychildren to go home, I mean go
back to school.
Whoa, that was a Freudian slip.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Whoa Children, we love you.
We just love you from adistance.
The concept of boarding schooljust sounds better and better
every year.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
I was literally having a conversation with my
daughter about how this is,years from now, years and years
when I'm gone, she can go backand listen to this and listen to
her mother's docent voicespeaking to her.
Now it's going to be like, wow,my mom won't just ship me off
to boarding school when I'm insecond grade.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Jesus, go back home, go back to boarding school.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Just kidding, love you.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
We're just joking, but I think we're all.
It's the end of winter break.
Yes, mom's ready.
Mom's ready to let's talk aboutsome murder.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
So that I don't commit one.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yes, it's much healthier to talk about murder
in history rather than justcommitting yourself.
So yeah, this is our annualmurder of a century showdown
where we pit two murders fromtwo different centuries against
each other and see which onewins and we're getting it in
like right under the wire too.

(07:03):
You're calling so proud I'm likesweating right now.
I'm like, am I gonna be able toto edit this in time?
But we'll get it done.
We will get it done and we willget a poll up on our instagram
and anybody listen anybody outthere listening?
Uh, you are welcome to take inthe poll and determine which,
which century, wins our showdown.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
All right, Cindy.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
So what century did you go with?

Speaker 2 (07:29):
The 10th century CE.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
What that's so far back there.
I know it's so ancient, it's soancient, I love it.
So I chose the 16th century, soI say earliest 16th century.
So I say early a century goesfirst.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
Age and treachery before youth and beauty.
So, cindy, let's dive intoeveryone's favorite time period
10th century Byzantium.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
That's my favorite.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
Isn't it everybody?
So, and stop me if you'vealready heard this before, cindy
.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Stop me if Cindy's already done a podcast episode
on it and I just had a brainaneurysm and forgot.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
So does the name Nikephoros II Phocas ring any
bells?
Absolutely not.
You're not well versed in allthe Byzantine emperors of the
Eastern Roman Empire.

Speaker 1 (08:35):
I thought I knew all of them, but gosh, this one just
slipped right past me.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
Slipped the mind, I know, I know he was not your
average emperor.
In fact, he was anything butaverage.
He was born to be a militarysuperstar.
So Nikephoros, whose nameliterally means bringer of
victory, I mean, can you pick amore fitting name for future
military?
You know, general and militarysuperstar.

(09:02):
It was meant to be.
It was meant to be militarysuperstar.
It was meant to be.
It was meant to be so.
He was born in 912 ce into afamily known for excellence on
the battlefield.
His father, brother andgrandfather all served as
commanders in the army.
Uh, but it wasn't as if he justrelied solely on his family's
name to bolster his success.
He, in his own right, was aneffective leader, so much so

(09:24):
that, in 954 CE, he actuallyreplaced his own father as
leader of the Eastern ByzantineArmy.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
How did that go over?

Speaker 2 (09:36):
I have a feeling it was not great, but his dad had
suffered a couple of majormilitary losses and so it was
like OK, you know this, you'rebeing replaced, but we're going
to soften the blow.
It's your son, so it's not toobad.
It's, you know, keeping thepower in the family kind of a
thing, but I'm sure his dad wasa little not too pleased about

(09:56):
it.
He was also noted for his brutalwar tactics.
So when he went to war hedidn't just beat his enemies, he
crushed them.
He was particularly skilled atbesieging cities.
And stop me, if you are alreadywell versed in, you know the
laws and rules of besieging?

Speaker 1 (10:17):
No, I did not.
I did not study that in college, Katie.
I'm afraid I minored insomething else.
Reading instruction how toteach children how to learn?
Yeah, Lame.

Speaker 2 (10:30):
You missed a wonderful class and I have to.
I did do like a little bit, goa little bit down a rabbit hole
in terms of siege warfare andlike the rules surrounding it.
And did you know that there areactually are international
rules of warfare like governingsiege tactics today?
So like it's legal nowadays?

(10:52):
Yes, you can legally besiegecities like that's okay.
The international war crimescommittee has no beef with you
If you do that.
They only have to take issue.
If you like, slaughtercivilians, like that's like, and
too many civilians, that's notokay.
If you do that, they only takeissue.
If you slaughter civilians andtoo many civilians, that's not
okay.
But if you keep the murder to aminimum, that's fine.

(11:12):
Just go ahead, besiege, do whatyou gotta do.
It's part of warfare.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Note taken.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
No, putting up my list for when I need to take
over the world, anyway.
So he was particularly skilledat besieging cities and this
type of these types of tacticswere absolutely crucial to his
success in retaking Crete in sixexcuse me, retaking Crete in
961.
So, starting in the late 1820s,the island of Crete which you

(11:39):
know, when you think of Creteyou think Greek island it was
actually taken over by exilesfrom Muslim Spain and was being
used as a pirate stronghold andalso used as like, as a jumping
off point for the Saracens to beable to raid towns and cities
all along the Aegean, forNikephoros to be able to do this

(12:04):
, because the Byzantines hadtried to retake the island in
842, 866, 911, and 949.
But all of those had endedtragically.
In one case it was because amajor commander was murdered the
night before they were supposedto set out and they're like
maybe we shouldn't do this.
And then there were two othercampaigns.
It was just an absoluteslaughter for the Greeks.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Is there a reason why they wanted this place so badly
, or just purely because theywere just trying to get as much
land as possible?

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Well, it's like a major Crete is like smack dab in
the middle of the Aegean Seaand it's easy to get to all the
other like Greek islands from itand you kind of control the
waterways oh.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I see.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
And it was like part of the Byzantine you know empire
, but it was taken from them, sothey wanted it back as well.
So it's a point of pride.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
And this is why I'm not.
I wasn't built made formilitary things Because I'm like
after the third or fourth time,do we really need it?
You guys Do?
After the third or fourth time,do we really need it, you guys
Do?
We really Can't?
We just be happy with what wehave?

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Well, nikephoros would disagree with you, cindy.
He's like yes, we absolutelyagree.
Exactly, that's why he's namedfor valor and I'm Cindy.
So Emperor Romanos II hadtapped Nikephoros to get the job
done because, again, he wasrenowned for his military, his
bravery, for his tactics.

(13:27):
Um, and though initially hethought he was going to be able
to take the island quickly andby force, it soon became very
clear that he's going to needlate need to lay siege of the
city of chandex, and if hewanted to take over the entire
island, the siege itself lastedabout six months.
So, like the fall of 960 into961, like the springtime, and

(13:50):
during that time he used avariety of different means to
try and take the island.
So this would include, you know, physical means, so they would
try to, like dig tunnelsunderneath the city walls to try
and get them to collapse.
Um, you've got different typesof siege weapons, like battering
rams or or different, um,different types of, uh like,

(14:11):
machines that would try and pullthe walls down.
Or you would also trypsychological means, so he would
do things like he would capturesaracens, behead them, put
their heads on pikes, wait, didyou consider that?

Speaker 1 (14:24):
part of the psychological warfare, or just
like or just like the warfare.
I think there's more to thatthan that's not just like
psychological warfare, it's likebrutal warfare.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah.
And it's to say like this iswhat's going to happen to you if
you don't give up pretty soon.
And he would also catapultheads over the wall too.
So it's like, hey, you in theback, you probably can't see
what we're doing.
Let me bring you the show, letme show you what's going on.
Eventually, they were able topull down the walls.

(14:56):
So these tactics, in addition tohis conquests in parts of Syria
, ended up earning him thenickname the Pale Death of the
Saracens, which is a pretty coolnickname.
That is a good one, if I had topick one myself.
So his reputation made him ahousehold name, if by household
in the Byzantine Empire you mean, you know, a giant empire

(15:18):
stretching from Italy to theMiddle East.
So, and as tough as a guy thathe was and how good of a
military leader that he was whenit comes to, like, figuring out
internal politics andstatements ship, he wasn't
always the best, and we're goingto see that this kind of gets
him into a little bit of troublein the future.

(15:39):
So in 963, the emperor RomanusII dies at the age of 24,
leaving a power vacuum.
This is a little bit of anaside.
There are actually twoprevailing theories on what was
the cause of the death of theemperor.
On one side you have those whobelieved his wife, theophano,

(16:00):
poisoned her husband.
Then you have another groupthat believes that the excesses
of royal life got to him, and byexcesses I mean hunting all day
, drinking all night andcavorting with young handmaidens
.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
In between, I have not researched this guy at all,
I have not researched thisculture at all, but I'm guessing
.
The truth is always somewherein the middle.
My guess is the excesses of hisroyal life led to his wife
finally having enough andpoisoning him, that's what I
vote for.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
I appreciate your theory, but in just a moment
you'll see that perhaps thatfirst theory is not going to
hold a lot of water, but I doappreciate your enthusiasm.
I try To say that Theophananowas in a difficult position at
this point in time.
It's an understatement.
She was the daughter of a poortavern keeper from Laconia and

(16:52):
she was renowned for her beauty.
Romanus the second married herin a nine 56, against the advice
and wishes of his father,constantine the seventh, whom
Theofano was also accused ofpoisoning when he died.
And she didn't.
She didn't, it's just herhaters, just her haters.

(17:13):
So at the time of Romanos II'sdeath, the Afano had actually
just given birth to their fourthchild, only 48 hours prior.
So think back to when you hadyour baby Cindy.
48 hours afterwards, were youpoisoning anybody or in a
position to poison anybody?

Speaker 1 (17:30):
No, but if I had people to poison for me.
True, I could.
I could think about a couple ofpeople I would have.
I would have, uh, poisoned byproxy, but no, no, not me
personally.
I was really busy otherwise.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
So you need to keep in mind that this time,
hereditary succession was notlaw.
So just because he has at thispoint he has two sons, but
they're very, very young,they're like three and five at
the time Just because they arealive and exist doesn't mean
that they are necessarily goingto be able to inherit the
emperorship, doesn't mean thatthey are necessarily going to be
able to inherit the emperorship.

(18:11):
So without the backing of apowerful leader, particularly a
military leader, theophano andher children would likely be
exiled or even worse.
So Theophano was able to reachan agreement with Nikephoros If
you protect me and my children,you can take the emperorship for
your own and I will legitimizeyou by marrying you.
So Nikephoros agreed and onAugust 16th 963, he was crowned

(18:35):
emperor and he married Theophanosoon after.
So one important thing to keepin mind is that off the
battlefield, nikephoros was notnearly as successful when it
came to matters of the heart.
When he was very young, hemarried a woman named Stefano,
who unfortunately died beforeNikephoros made much of a name
for himself.

(18:56):
So most of what we have likeinformation about her is largely
speculative.
We don't know what she lookedlike.
We don't know what her familywas like.
There's very little in thehistoric record, but what we do
know is that she had an immenseimpact on Nikephoros, so much so
that, after his death, he sworean oath of chastity to his dead

(19:16):
wife, whoa.
Yes, I'm impressed.
Yes, by all historic accounts.
It may appear that this storyis true, as Theophano and
Nikephoros never had anychildren, and Theophano's eye
reportedly started to wandersoon after they married.
Her gaze eventually fell on andI'm going to butcher this

(19:39):
because my Greek is terrible,john, i's semic.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
You can do it, you can do it.
Katie, you can do it.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
I don't even know Tima Psyches that sounds right.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, tima Psyches, tima Psyches, we're going to say
it.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
Tima Psyches All right.
Her gaze eventually fell onJohn I.
Tima Psyches, one ofNikephoros' top generals and his
nephew and, according to somecontemporary sources quote, a
total hottie.
He was a short king butdescribed as extremely good
looking, with a red beard andhair and blue eyes.

(20:19):
So think of like a Greek funsize, sam Heughan.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, yeah, okay, sure, okay sure.

Speaker 2 (20:39):
So John was, in his own right, a powerful, skilled
military leader who wasextremely popular with his
troops.
He would personally rally themduring a fight and turning the
tide of a seemingly lost battle.
So soon after his ascension tothe throne, matters on the
political front also turned sourfor Nikephoros.
The thing about being amilitary hero in Byzantium is
that it doesn't automaticallytranslate to being a good
emperor.

(21:00):
He was a warrior, but notnecessarily a ruler, so he put
out very high taxes to try andpay for all these wars that he
was fighting on behalf of theByzantine Empire.
He was spending a lot on themilitary.
He was more focused on what wasgoing on externally than what

(21:20):
was happening with the localpopulation, and they didn't feel
like he had his best.
They didn't feel like he hadtheir best interests at heart.
He was also getting intodust-ups with the church on
religious grounds, such aswanting any soldier who dies in
battle against the Saracens tobe considered a martyr.
They were not having that atall.
There was also a little bit ofan issue when he first became

(21:41):
emperor and was going to marryTheophano.
There was a rumor going aroundthat he was godfather to one of
her children, and at that timeit was considered like spiritual
incest if you married yourchild's um like godparent,
interesting so.

(22:02):
But they had to like squashthose rumors and because he had
been married before he couldn'tdo certain things in the it was.
It was a mess, but it all gotworked out and they got married.
And here here we are, givenNikephoros' struggles, and at
that time the growing influenceand popularity of John,
nikephoros decides to banish hisnephew from Constantinople and

(22:24):
from military service altogether.
So this was a bridge too farfor Theophano, for John and for
a number of the of the generalswho were loyal to john.
So they conspired to do theunthinkable murder the emperor
and put john on the throne.
so on december 11th 969, theythought that they had finally

(22:47):
found their moment.
But their plan was not withouthiccups.
So according to a contemporaryhistorian from the time called
Leo the Deacon, a priest alertedthe emperor to the fact that
there were armed men hiding outin his wife's quarters, but a
search of the empress's roomsturned up nothing.
Nikephoros was satisfied withthe results and decided to bunk

(23:10):
down for a long winter's nap,but not before Theophano
casually mentioned that sheneeded to go check on some
guests, but that the emperorshould leave his bedroom door
open and unlocked, and she wouldcome back and lock things up
when she was all done.
So Nikephoros, blissfullyunaware that his nephew and
co-conspirators had snuck intothe palace, agreed.

(23:31):
Once they were inside thepalace, john and his men entered
an imperial bedchamber andthrew back the bedclothes to
reveal nothing.
They had accidentally wanderedinto the wrong bedchamber.
Oh, no, no, no, I'll show youto the right bedchamber.

(23:58):
And he led them to where theemperor actually was sleeping.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Do we think the servant was in on this, or do
you think the servant was just atotal idiot?

Speaker 2 (24:08):
No, I think the servant was in on it.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
I think that she was working with the Emperor as well
, Otherwise that guy lost hisjob for sure.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
So once they arrived at the correct Imperial
bedchamber, they struck theEmperor in the head with a sword
drawing blood.
John had his men hold his uncledown and did what any
disgruntled usurper would do ina situation like this he started
monologuing.
So according to Leo the Deacon,John aired his grievances to

(24:40):
Nikephoros thus and I'm going tobe reading word for word what
apparently Leo the Deacon saysCan you help us paint this
picture just a little bit more?

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, so the assassins who almost threw
themselves to their deathbecause they made a mistake at
their job.
They're holding him down, yeah,and they're about to kill, like
they're going to go in for thekill.
But no, their ringleader, theirboss, is like let me first have
a few words.
Exactly, let's put ourselves inthe shoes of those assassins

(25:14):
for a minute.
What are you thinking?
Are you like, yeah, that weexpected this.
This is part of the job.
Are you just thinking, oh mygod, dude, like, let us just get
this over and done with and gohome.

Speaker 2 (25:24):
that's what I would be thinking like come on,
where's the imperial guard?
They're gonna be here in aminute, let's get going.
Yes, but no, he needs to stop.
He needs to air his grievances,he needs to let him know what's
wrong, why I'm doing this toyou.
Okay, tell me, you mostungrateful and malicious tyrant.

(25:45):
Wasn't it through me that youattained the Roman rule and
received such power?
Why then did you disregard sucha good turn and, driven by envy
and evil frenzy, did nothesitate to remove me, your
benefactor, from the command ofthe troops?
Instead, you dismissed me towaste my time in the countryside
with peasants, like some alien,without any rights, even though

(26:07):
I am more brave and vigorousthan you.
Without any rights, even thoughI am more brave and vigorous
than you, the armies of theenemy fear me and there is no
one who can save you from myhands.
Speak then, if you have anygrounds of defense remaining
against these charges, and allNikephoros could do was, over
and over, say oh, mother of God,help me.

(26:28):
Oh, mother of God, help me.
I'm going to blame that on thehead injury.
Have you ever?

Speaker 1 (26:33):
had like a negative encounter with somebody.
And then you're like the nextday you're like taking a shower
and like all you're doing isthink, like what you should have
said.
Right, you're probably like Ishould have said this and I
should have said this.
So, on the one hand, I give itto John for taking a moment to
just get it all out there so hedoesn't have any of that regret

(26:54):
Like, oh, I should have saidthis to him or I should have
said this.
But here's also I guess we'vebeen podcasting long enough,
katie, and researching longenough that I don't 100% believe
in this historical record.
And that, did he actually saythese things?
No, are we picturing there'ssomebody next to him like
scribbling down, like uh-huh, no, keep going, I got it, I got it

(27:15):
all.
No, I feel like maybe he saidsomething really stupid, that
like I got you or something, andthe next day he was like oh, I
really regret, I really wish Ihad said more.
This is what I wish I had said.
He grabbed his scribes andwrite this down.
This is what I said and publishthat for the historical record.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
I think that's totally, that's 100% believable.
Cindy, I think that might bewhat actually happened.
He like, and then saidsomething stupid, and then maybe
these guys were like razzing onhim a little bit and he's like
no, no, no, no, we're gonna setthe record straight.
This is what it's gonna be.
I think that's.

(27:57):
I think you're 100 right there.
So, yeah, like I said, all nicoforrest could do was just like
beg god for help.
And john grabbed nico forrestby the beard and he pulled, pull
his head up, allowing hislackeys to like smash his jaw,
and according to the record, itwas just like they just beat the
crap out of him.
Then john kicked him in thechest and struck nico forrest
through the skull with his sword, egging on others to do the
same.
So nico forrest was finallyfelled by the strike of a hooked

(28:21):
hammer that went out into hisback and popped out his chest.
So, yes, yeah.
So john immediately assumed thethrone and nico forrest's
bodyguards attempted to save himbecause they didn't know if he
was dead or not.
So they it sounds like theykind of rushed in to help, but

(28:43):
it was too late.
And to ensure that thebodyguards didn't try any funny
business, john showed off thedecapitated head of nico forrest
through a window, so that thebodyguards didn't try any funny
business.
John showed off the decapitatedhead of Nikephoros through a
window, so that the bodyguardswere certain that the emperor
was dead and wouldn't try, likeI said, any kind of funny
business and try and kill himand take it for themselves.
The Romans had a delightfulhistory of like the Praetorian

(29:06):
guard, which was essentially theemperor's bodyguards, of like
overthrowing the emperor andinstalling someone that they got
behind, or murdering themhimself themselves so this is
like keeping with romantradition, if you will.
He wanted to make sure that theywere on his side before he kind
of let them in, was like, okay,it's a done deal.

(29:27):
Everybody sees, I killed him,I'm the emperor, no, tixie back
sees, you can't pull a fast oneon me.
And so he I john did becomeemperor, and he was emperor
until 976 himself, um, but to befair, like he was never the way
in which he assumed power,there was always kind of like a
dark mark on his emperorship.

(29:48):
But so so, in the end,nikephoros II Phokas.
His death serves as a perfectexample of how even the most
powerful rulers are vulnerableto the ultimate betrayal.
He was a military genius, aconqueror, a man who fought to
defend his empire, and yet, inthe end, it was his own wife and

(30:08):
a trusted general who took himdown.
So let his story be a powerfulmessage during this time of
holiday get-togethers andquality family time Trust no one
.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
You know, it's funny.
I actually was going to saythere's a comforting message in
this story as well.
What message in this story aswell?
What in that?
It's just a nice reminder thatwe can't all be good at
everything and that it's okay.
You can be really good at onething and it's okay if you're

(30:43):
not good at the other things.
Maybe, don't you know, marrysomebody with a really
complicated history and you knowhave your nephew, like get
really upset and maybe don'tlike tax the heck out of
everybody.
I mean, there's that lesson aswell.
But yeah, I agree, trust no oneand it's okay if you can't do

(31:06):
it all, just be you and just dowhat you do really well.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
Don't try to girlboss too hard, Like you said.
Just be happy with being thecommander of the Eastern Army of
the Byzantium and just leave itat that.
He could have retired and had anice little life.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
Well, I'm sorry that happened to him.
Was John popular?
Do we know?
Well, I'm sorry that happenedto him.
It's was John popular.
Do we know?
Were people pleased?

Speaker 2 (31:34):
when he I didn't dig too much into his reign.
I just know that how he came topower was not people were not
super jazzed about it, to saythe least, and he only.
He ended up only reigning forlike six years.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
It's so interesting to think about how people back
then must have felt compared tohow we feel now.
We have people who campaign allsummer for a presidential
election and people get mad.
They say it was enough.
Time.
Like this is.
You know, people need years toprepare for a presidential,
presidential election and thingsmeanwhile.

(32:13):
One day you wake up and thisone person is the ruler of you,
and then the next minute hishead is in a window and so his
nephew is the ruler and you justkind of have to go with the
flow exactly.
You're like oh okay, I guessthis is happening now, I suppose
I guess john is now telling mehow many taxes, how much taxes

(32:35):
to pay.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
So I guess we just go with it.
But you're right, that must beso bizarre.
For ancient people that's likea second I just got used to this
guy.
What do you mean?
We got somebody new.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
I like that old guy, I loved him.
Oh well, I guess it's this newguy now.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
Now, Cindy, do you think it could have all been
avoided if he hadn't kept hisvow to his wife to be celibate?

Speaker 1 (33:01):
No, I think there were a few other things at play.
I think perhaps not being areally great leader kind of set
him up for it For somebody atsome point to come along and see
his weaknesses and try to takehim down.
But to be fair, did she not gointo that relationship knowing
she knew what she was gettingherself into?

(33:22):
She knew what she was.
I feel like all the blame can'tbe placed on him.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Takes two to tango Cindy, or in this case, not.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Okay, first, I should say my murder is a 16th century
murder.
What's funny, though, is thatyour stories and my stories
always overlap in some weird way, and the overlap here is
remember when you said we jokedthat I didn't study besiegery in
college.
Yes, because I was too busytaking classes on the history of

(34:01):
witchcraft and wizardry, whichwere totally real classes that I
took, uh, for extra credit.
Wait, wait.
Could you have taken a class onbesiegery?
Uh, I don't recall seeing thatin the course catalog, but could
you and I create a course andteach a course on besiegery?

Speaker 2 (34:25):
I would love that there's so many laws and so many
rules you have to follow.
It's crazy, like traditionally,traditionally.
But the long story short is ifyou can not get besieged, don't
get besieged.
If you do, just give up becauseotherwise they're going to kill
everybody.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Here's my question, though you and I know that if we
taught a class like that, itwould be done sarcastically, or
something like that.
Do you think we could getimprisoned?
Do you think somebody without asense of humor would seek to
have us imprisoned?

Speaker 2 (35:04):
No, no.
Could we get thrown in internetjail?
Maybe would he get canceled?
No, because it's it I.
I think we would be respectfulof the material but keep it like
.
I feel like the best educatorsare able to instill like a
little bit of humor, but in arespectful way, and make things

(35:25):
exciting, and I think we woulddo that Same thing with
witchcraft.
I feel like any topic that wewould teach, it would come from
a respectful way, but a way tomake it interesting without
being like do you feel likewe've made things too
scintillating?

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Is there such thing as too scintillating Katie?

Speaker 2 (35:44):
I don't know if the wave of history is changing or
whatnot, but sometimes I've seendiscussions on the interwebs
and everything about how any andI can see, especially with
contemporary murder, thatsometimes people sensationalize
it, especially if the murdervictims and their families are
still alive.
The murder victims are notalive, the families.

(36:05):
But I've heard arguments likeyou shouldn't do that with
anyone in time ever.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
No, I disagree with that because I think my story
will show, and I think manyother stories that we have done
over the years, katie, just forthis podcast alone show that
people throughout history lovedtrue crime.
I think it's very naive thatsome people think that women,

(36:38):
especially their interest intrue crime, is like this new
phenomenon.
It's not.
Oh yeah, 100% into your crimeis like this new phenomenon.
It's not, oh yeah, 100.
I guarantee you, katie, back in967 or whatever you said, you
know, people in that thatcommunity were like oh my, the
next one, oh my god.
Did you see whose head was inthe window?

(36:58):
Get out.
That was his nephew who didthat.
Oh my God, he's like afun-sized Sam Heughan.
This is going to be.
He's hot.
He killed somebody, but he'shot.
He's short, but he's hot.
What are you Ladies?
What are we thinking?
No, you're right, you're right,cindy, you're right.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
No, you're right.
You're right, cindy.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
You're right.
So on that note.
So I have this weird personalconnection to my story.
So I started to research mymurder story and as I was
researching I was like thissounds really familiar.
And then I realized I wroteabout this for my final paper in

(37:45):
my history of witchcraft andwizardry class 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
For a second, I thought you were going to say
this is a story my grandmothertold me, or, like my great
grandmother this is a storyabout my grandma.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
No, it's not.
It's not about my grandma.
My grandma did not live back inthe 16th century, no, but I.
But so here's the thing is Iresearched this topic and I
looked at my old research paper,which means I can cite my own
work for this topic you'reliving.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
You're living every historian's dream, to cite
themselves.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
This is my fantasy, this is my moment in the sun.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Katie, please tell me that in your write-up you used
appropriate APA formatting.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
You bet I did.
A list of my works cited can befound on our Instagram account.
One thing we are really badabout that we should do better
in the new year is citing ourwork.
But honestly, who has time for?

Speaker 2 (38:49):
that I was going to say we did at the beginning, and
then it was like I've got a job.
I have a full time job with twosmall children and if people
want, I will throw my researchlinks up there.
Boom, boom, boom.
You want to go read Leo theDeacon in the original Greek?
It's on there.
Just let your fingers do thetyping.
It's there, I promise.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
It's all out there.
If we can find it, you can findit.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
But now I'm really curious.
So you still have like a copyof that research paper and
everything, right, I do Did likethe research that you did back
then.
Does it mirror the researchthat you came up with now, or is
there new or different stuffthat's come out?

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
So I should say that myresearch paper was on a slightly
different topic than what I'mgoing to talk about today.
However, the story I'm going totell you was included in my
research paper.
However, going back, katie andI are not that old.
When we went to college, we hadaccess to the internet.

(39:47):
We had had access to theinternet for a long time.
We all knew about what goodsources were versus bad websites
and things like that.
There were things that came upin my paper where I was like
that doesn't sound right,knowing what I I think I again,
like I said in your story, I'mso jaded after doing so much

(40:10):
history research that when I seecertain numbers or certain
facts or statistics, I'm like no, there's something else going
on here.
So there were a few things thatI said that I know I read, but,
knowing what I know now, Iwould have gone back and
double-checked those numbers andrealized they were not true.
Oh, like what?

(40:30):
Well, let me teach you, I'll getto it and then I'll tell you
what it was.
So, Katie, I want to tell youthe story of Peter Stump, the
werewolf of Bedburg.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
I was expecting witches, but this is taking me
for a total left turn.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
That was kind of unfair.
It was witchcraft and wizardry,but then I think our research
project could be on anythinglike any topic within witchcraft
, and werewolves fall within therealm of witchcraft.
Does that make?

Speaker 2 (41:02):
sense.
Yeah, are they bewitched?
They're demonic.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
They're considered they consort with witches.
Okay, fair enough, I'll allowit.
I will allow this.
Peter Stump was also known asPeter Stube, peter Stub, peter
Stumpf, stube Peter and AbelGriswold Just put it out there.

(41:33):
Now a note of interest the nameStump or Stumpf may have been
given to Peter as kind of anickname in reference to the
fact that his left hand had beencut off, leaving only a stump.
Stumpf or stumpf is German forstump or blunt.
Which, katie, it just makes merealize we are all one appendage

(41:58):
cut off away from a stupid 16thcentury European nickname.
Look, he's missing his arm.
Let's call him Peter Stump.
But this nickname is relevantlater on.
Okay, so Peter was a wealthyfarmer in Germany.
We don't know exactly where orwhen he was born, but we think

(42:20):
he was born near Bedburg,germany, around 1530.
Now the only real informationwe have about Peter's life, his
crimes and his trial is a16-page pamphlet that was
published in London in 1590.
The pamphlet is a translationof a German pamphlet, but no
copies of the German one exist,only the English one, and you

(42:42):
absolutely can find it on theinternet and read it for
yourself.
I did, and it's a fascinatingread Only 16 pages.
So in addition to being afarmer, we know Peter was a
widower and a father of two.
He also was a fairly wealthyfarmer, which granted him a
certain level of respect withinhis community, and the local

(43:05):
villagers who lived with him, byall accounts, found him
generally pleasant, that isuntil the murders.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
This is like how all really great German fairy tales
start too.
Like a widowed rich farmer, twosmall children.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
I was going to say Dateline episodes.
If you could just picture whatI just said, if you could hear
it in Keith Morrison's voice.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
In a German, keith Morrison, and he's wearing
lederhosen.
Dankeschön.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
Is that a German word ?
Yes, thank you.
No, I could do that in Keithword.
Yes, thank you.
No, I could do that in KeithMorrison's voice.
Now, for years, farmers in theBedburg area were perplexed when
they would occasionally go outinto the fields and find their
cows dead, their bodies rippedopen by some savage and

(44:02):
mysterious creature.
But at some point children toobegan to disappear, and then
several young pregnant womendisappeared as well.
Some of these bodies were found, and they were found horribly
mutilated, but many of the otherbodies were never seen again.
This led the community ofBedberg to essentially freak out

(44:25):
.
The villagers naturallysuspected wolves, as indeed
wolves were a big problem toEuropeans at this time.
Shortly thereafter, the limbsof several missing people were
found in a field and villagerswere like okay, right, this has
to be a wolf.
So several hunters, along withtheir dogs, set out to hunt down

(44:45):
this wolf.
The hunters tracked the wolffor several days until they
finally saw it.
Their dogs chased the wolf downand they had it cornered.
When the hunters approached,they realized it wasn't a wolf
that they had cornered.
It was Peter Stump.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
But go on.
How did they mistake a man fora wolf?

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Okay, so this?
Herein lies the problem, katie.
They had clearly just seen awolf and their dogs had just
seen a wolf, but here was thisman, peter, cornered in the
forest.
How could a man be responsiblefor the horrific murders of all

(45:32):
of these people and livestock?
The only logical solution wasthat Peter Stube was a werewolf,
obviously, obviously, awerewolf, obviously.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Obviously Wait, wait.
When they found him was henaked?

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Good question.
So it's unclear in the pamphlet.
If he was full on naked, myunderstanding is that for sure
he carried walking sticks, andthis is relevant later on too.
Okay, he may or may not havebeen wearing wolf, like a wolf,

(46:11):
uh, wolf skin skin on him, butagain, it's very unclear.
It didn't say what he waswearing.
But I think that's an excellentpoint, katie, and this is why
you should have been a 16thcentury cop.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
World's only 16th century female German cop.
Very believable.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
There's Katie with her little badge.
She's got a little mustachecurls on the end.
A monocle, A monocle.
Yes, you have to have a monocle, yes.
So Peter was arrested andbrought to trial, where he was
tortured on the rack andeventually confessed to all of
the murders.
He claimed that he hadconsorted with the devil, who

(46:56):
gave him a magical belt made ofwolf fur when he was only 12
years old.
Now, keep in mind, at thispoint Peter is around 25 years
old.
Peter claimed so.
He had been like werewolfing itfor a long time, For 13 years.
Peter claimed that when he putthe belt on, he transformed into
quote the likeness of a greedydevouring wolf, strong and
mighty, with eyes great andlarge which in the night,

(47:16):
sparkled like brands of fire, amouth great and wide with most
sharp and cruel teeth, a hugebody and mighty paws.
End quote when Peter took thebelt off, that is when he would
return to his human state.
Now, like I said, when thehunting party found Peter, they

(47:37):
did not see a magic belt at all,just a walking stick.
And, like I said, I feel likethis is kind of relevant later
on in the story.
So, all in all, peter wascharged with the deaths of 13
children, of whom he allegedlystrangled and ripped their
throats open with his bare hands.
It was claimed that he wouldthen disembowel them and eat

(47:59):
parts of them which parts, Idon't know, but I'm assuming the
bowel part.
He was also charged withsexually assaulting several
women and then tearing themapart and eating them.
Two of the women were pregnantand allegedly he ripped out the
fetuses and ate their hearts.
And of course, he was chargedwith ripping apart and devouring
numerous livestock.

(48:20):
Something worth noting also isthat there was at least one
child who was able to escape anattack by a wolf.
That is Peter.
As the story goes, severalchildren were playing in a
meadow when the wolf attackedthem.
The wolf grabbed one littlegirl by the neck, but her high,
stiff collar prevented him fromripping her throat out.

(48:41):
She was able to scream, whichcaused the cows in the field to
flip out and charge the wolf letgo of the little girl, and she
escaped.
So she's one of the lucky ones,I guess.
It was also claimed that Peterhad incestuous relationships
with his sister and his owndaughter.
He also allegedly murdered hisson, leading the boy into the

(49:03):
forest where he apparentlykilled him and ate his brains.
Now, katie, like we've beensaying this whole episode, we've
been doing this for a few yearsnow, and I don't know about you
, but this is kind of giving meElizabeth Bathory vibes.
Do you remember ElizabethBathory?

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yes, yes, that it was very unlikely that she murdered
as many young women as wasclaimed.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
Mm-hmm, so long before Salem had the witch
trials, Europe had the werewolftrials.
Ooh, Between 1527 and 1725,there were at least 18 werewolf
trials that took placethroughout Europe.
Europe's fear of wolves can betraced back to the Middle Ages,

(49:54):
where there was indeed a realfear of being written by rabid
wolves.
And of course this led me tothink actually, let me go back
and say something real fast.
So in my paper I wrote incollege I think it was something
like 300,000 people wereaccused of being werewolves, and
I saw that number pop up in myresearch.
Now I was like that isridiculous, Like that is way too

(50:15):
much.
Then that 300,000 comes fromsome guy in the 18th century
writing about the werewolftrials, and that was his
guesstimate at the end of theday there were 18 werewolf
trials that took place within200 years.
So I don't think that number iscorrect.
At the time I wrote the paper Imean it was part of my research

(50:39):
but it didn't ring any bellslike it did now, thinking
something's up here I mean,could it have been that 300 000
people were accused, but eventhen it would only have 18
trials out of 300.
That's a very small percentageyes, I think it was somebody
else you know, hundreds of yearsago doing their version of math
research, calculating and I'mgetting, I, I get 300,000.

(51:03):
No, no, no, no, no, try like 20.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
This is why kids these days are doing the new
math, because the old maththat's the kind of stuff you'd
get.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
This is why we have Common Core.
Because of the werewolf trials.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
My children will learn the old fashioned way
using cubits.
Damn it.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
And protractors it and protractors.
So I thought it was interestingthat people were.
They had a actual fear of beingbitten, not just by wolves, but
by rabid wolves, to be fair tothe people of the middle ages.
Fun fact did you know inlithuania between eight excuse

(51:45):
me, between 1989 and 2001, 22people were bitten by rabid
wolves.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Jesus, I mean, getting bitten by a wolf alone
is traumatizing, but a rabidwolf what are they doing in
Lithuania, in which that manypeople were coming into contact
with rabid wolves thatfrequently?

Speaker 1 (52:08):
I know, I know.
So anyway, my point being it'snot completely unreasonable for
Europeans, during the MiddleAges, to have these fears of
wolves.
These fears were alsocompounded by a little ice age.
During this time that decreasedtemperatures in Western Europe,
and this resulted indevastating shortages of crops
and livestock.
There also was the Great Faminein the early 1300s, as well as

(52:31):
the Black Death in the mid-1300s, and both of these things wiped
out huge populations of WesternEurope.
So Europeans were stressed, andif there is one thing that
stressed out Europeans don'thave time for it's wolves
looking to eat their livestock.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Nope.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
Nope.
In the late 1200s, england'sKing Edward ordered the
extermination of wolves in someparts of the country.
In 1427, king of the Scots,james I, passed a law requiring
three wolf hunts a year.
The French government actuallyhired an elite group of hunters
to control the wolf population.
Even when Western Europe'spopulation bounced back and

(53:11):
doubled by the early 17thcentury, this still meant less
land for wolves to live on, andso these wolves are coming into
people's farmland, and peoplehave even less tolerance at this
point for wolves looking totake down their livestock.
My point is being killing wolveswas a bit of an obsession for
Europeans for centuries.

(53:32):
Now, going back to Peter, itseems that this natural fear of
wolves was combined withsuperstition, religious and
political issues, and manypeople were just looking for
scapegoats.
Those scapegoats wouldbasically be anyone they could
accuse of being a werewolf.
So remember when I mentionedthat Peter had a stump in place

(53:55):
of his left hand.
Yes, so superstition claimedthat an injury to a werewolf
would result in the same injuryto the person who was the
werewolf.
People claimed that the wolfthey saw had its left forepaw
cut off, and Peter, of course,was missing his left hand.

(54:20):
So therefore he must be thewolf.
Many of the people accused ofbeing werewolves during this
time were beggars or hermits.
These people also seem to onlyconfess while being horrifically
tortured.
Interesting so historiansnowadays, interesting connection
.
Historians nowadays believethat these people might have
suffered from delusions or thatthey weren't of capacity to

(54:40):
fully understand what they wereconfessing to.
And I think by that they meanmaybe they either just mentally
weren't well enough to know whatthey were confessing to, or
they were being so horrificallytortured that their minds just
weren't thinking clearly andrationally.
I'll just say yes, no of courseI don't have a magical belt.

(55:01):
I'll just say yes to end thetorture.
Now, when tortured, peterconfessed to having a magical
belt but, like we talked about,when the hunters found him they
didn't find a belt, only awalking stick.
So the question is, was hedelusional and he made up the
story?
Did he believe he had a belt,or did he not actually ever have

(55:23):
a belt and he was just makingit up to get a torture does?

Speaker 2 (55:25):
that make sense?
Yeah, no, I I think if you're,I feel like if you're being
tortured, you'll say anything tomake it stop, like no matter
how ridiculous, depending on thetype of torture.
I said, yeah, I've never beentortured so I can't say, but I
imagine you've never beentortured on the rack have not
been drawn and quartered.

Speaker 1 (55:42):
No, now it is possible that some of the
accused werewolves were actuallyserial killers.
Some sources do suggest thatPeter covered himself in wolf
skins to commit his murders.
So the other question is ifthis is true, right, if those
sources are accurate, did hethink he was a wolf when

(56:04):
committing the murders or did he?
Did he just happen to bewearing them?
Because that was like whatwealthy farmers did, or that he
he thought that if people caughthim.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
They would think it's a wolf, and then he'd be able
to get away, right, yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:22):
right, kind of just like elizabeth bathory.
It's really hard to untanglethis folklore from people's
eyewitness accounts, from realevidence.
Now, of course, there's alsothe religion piece.
Uh, if you think back toelizabeth bathory, she was I
think she was a protestant orcal, I forget, but anyway there

(56:44):
was a whole religious piecethere.
In this case, peter was aProtestant, and the Lord of
Bedberg, whose name was CountAdolf Neuenair, was also a
Protestant, meaning he supportedand looked out for the
Protestant community members inthe area.
However, after the defeat ofthe Protestants in 1587, bedburg

(57:06):
Castle fell under the controlof Count Werner of this is a
very unfortunate name that Icannot pronounce Count Werner of
Salmonella Reiferscht.
Anyway, he was a Catholic andby all accounts, he was willing
to do whatever it took toreestablish Roman Catholicism in
the area.

(57:26):
So was Peter used as an exampleof what happens to people who
don't follow the true church?
So let's you know, accuse Peterof being a werewolf because
he's a Protestant.
If you don't want to be accusedof a werewolf, then you should

(57:48):
come over to the Catholic sideInteresting, was he?

Speaker 2 (57:53):
I mean, was there any historical evidence to suggest
that he was?
I know you said that he waswealthy, but that he had like
political aspirations or that heran afoul of the church or the
any of the government in any way.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
Maybe Not that I read .
My guess is it's a combinationof things.
I think it's a little bitconfusing because he was wealthy
, which then people thenrespected him.
I don't know if they justrespected him because he was
wealthy or because he was a goodperson, but I think it's a
combination.

(58:31):
My guess is based ondescriptions of Peter.
He was kind of an outcast.
Sure, he might have been afarmer and maybe he kept to
himself being a widower takingcare of his kids.
Maybe he just didn't have timefor a lot of other people.
He was busy and didn't spend alot of time out in the community

(58:55):
.
He was missing a hand.
I don't know, being aProtestant, like all of those
things just added up.
But again, could he haveactually murdered people and
tried to blame it on wolves?
That's possible too.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
Do you think it really was a wolf or do you
think it was a serial killer?
And poor Peter's just gettinghe's a scapegoat.

Speaker 1 (59:14):
Katie, you and I, we could have teamed up in the 16th
century like Cindy and Katie.
We'd have our own littleversion of Dateline.
I don't know, katie, we'd haveour own little version of
Dateline.
I don't know.
Because here's my question whenPeter was arrested, did Peter?

Speaker 2 (59:30):
the murder stopped happening.
That's what I was going to askyou.
That's my next question.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
And there's no record of it whatsoever.
And these people who wentmissing, a lot of people had
fears of wolves taking children.
Apparently, wolves were like.
Wolves did take children oh yes, snatch them up.
But it wasn't.
But they also exterminated somany of them by this point that
there weren't that many wolvesleft to begin with.
I feel like a lot of the fearspeople had were just left over

(59:57):
from earlier time periods.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
No, cindy.
That's why I believe that wehave fears of, like Bigfoot and
fairies, that it's a holdoverfrom some, you know,
evolutionary fear of some kindof creature that we had that
hunted us, or fear of some kindof creature that we had, that
that hunted us or or competedwith us for resources.
So I don't feel like that.
That theory of yours is thatridiculous or anything like that
.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
I think it's totally legit my biggest fear is that,
my biggest fear.
I'm about like 400 years, 500years too late to this, but
maybe I don't think I think awolf was taking down livestock.
I think there was a serialkiller taking down these kids

(01:00:45):
and these women and maybe Peterhad nothing to do with any of it
, but he was blamed because hewas kind of maybe an odd duck in
the community.
And there was still a serialkiller out there on the loose, I
agree, and got away with thisand we'll never know who that
was.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
That's my theory too, it was Jack the Ripper.
He just time traveled.
What an asshole.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
He's not good enough to stay in your own time.
Gotta try time travel.

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
He could have killed Hitler, but instead he just
wanted to slash prostitutes.
What a jerk.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
I know, I know.
So, whether or not Peter was awerewolf, a serial killer or a
victim of his time, he wasnonetheless found guilty on
October 28, 1589, and wassentenced to execution.
But he wasn't just executed,Katie.
Peter's execution was one ofthe most gruesome executions of

(01:01:43):
all time.
His body was strapped on alarge wheel and his flesh was
pulled from his bones in tenplaces with red hot pincers.
His legs were then broken witha large axe and his head was cut
off.
Then the wheel on which he wastortured was placed high up on a
pole from which sixteen longstrips of wood hung, each strip

(01:02:07):
representing one of his victims.
On top of that was a framedlikeness of a wolf, and above
that, Peter's head sat atop asharpened point of a pole.
To top it all off, the rest ofhis body was burned, along with
his daughter's body and hismistress's body, as punishment
for allegedly abetting hiscrimes.

(01:02:27):
So I ask you, Katie, what doyou think was the murder of the
century, Peter's alleged crimesor Peter's execution?

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
I think his execution that was pretty brutal because
it was also it was not just him,it was like his daughter and
his mistress Like think it'sjust sad.
No, I'll give you, I'll give itto you.
Cindy, that's just a terrible,terrible.
And all those other, cindy,that's just terrible.
Terrible, and all those othermurders.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
There's so much murder.
I only had one murder, so muchmurdering in like one area of
Germany.
I don't know where Bedburg is,I don't know how big it is, but
that seems like a lot.
That seems like a lot For thistime period.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
As opposed to just like one murder in
Constantinople, like come on,come on.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
well, now I'm curious to know where the heck bedberg
is.
I'm gonna google and actually,now that I say that, it sounds
kind of familiar, it's probably.
It's probably like the secondlargest city in germany and you
and I are just silly americansno, to be fair, it's like it's
itty bitty Bedbug.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
It's near cologne.
Okay, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
So in my Katie's sleuthing she's like this all
makes sense now.
No, no, cologne.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
Yeah, so in my besieging research, for some
reason um different torturemethods also came up and, uh,
one of the things was, I guess,um flaying, which you mentioned.
Like they flayed him alive.
It's actually very common infrance and this all makes sense
because it's pretty.
Bedbrook is kind of close tofrance, it's not?

(01:04:12):
Super close, but it's, like youknow, closer than Berlin, you
know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:19):
You know what's interesting In all of my
werewolf research too, Germanyand France seem to have the most
issues with werewolves.
England not so much.
England was like ooh, we'rejust far enough that we are.
It's smaller, we're juststaying out of of that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
but now that you're saying they were, you know
they're close to each other,pretty close I mean there's
belgium and luxembourg too inthe way, but I'm sure the bell,
the belgians are like hey, hey,you were strongly worded letter
I think that they were justtalking.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
They like talked amongst themselves.
And, you know, one persontalked to another and they're
like oh, you won't believe.
Like you know, my neighbordisappeared and so it's like
have you heard about werewolves?
You know, my sister over in youknow the countryside in France,
was telling me they have a realproblem with these werewolves.
Have you thought about that?
And then just one thing leadsto another.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
And then bam, they're part of the cultural zeitgeist.

Speaker 1 (01:05:21):
Well, that was a cheery note to end the new year
on Katie.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
End the old year, begin the new year.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Werewolves.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
Werewolves and military tactics.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Werewolves and besiegement Werewolves and
military tactics, I don't knowWerewolves and besiegement,
werewolves and besiegement.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Yes, yes, that's.
I'm going to go into the newyear and I'm going to siege all
of my bad habits and I'm goingto go after it.
I'm going to go after it like arabid werewolf this year, boom.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
I love it.
Forget Carpe Diem.
Yes, besiege the day, besiegethe day and get after it like a
rabid werewolf.
I love it, katie.
That is going to be myresolution.
There you go, perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:06:16):
And then 365 days four, five, five days from now
we can see on our besiegementlevel.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
We'll see which one of us is in prison first, which
one of us is in jail, which oneof us is still out there On the
lambs.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
Reaching our goals.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
I'm the lamb.
Happy New Year, Katie.
Happy New Year, Cindy.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
And Happy New Year to everyone.
Listening by choice or by force.

Speaker 1 (01:06:49):
Here's looking at you , my family.
Happy New Year, Katie.
Looking at you, my family.
Thank you.