November 5, 2024 • 60 mins
In honor of the 2024 election, we offer truly crazy stories in history. Katie shares the story of Anne Boleyn and Cindy shares the story of Hannibal Barca crossing the Alps.
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Well, hi Katie.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hi Cindy, how are you ?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm good.
Happy election season to you.
And a happy election season toyou and all those who celebrate
can I just say I'm a big fan ofthe 11th hour mudslinging and
pearl clutching.
I love it, I love, I love howeveryone's just like like
(00:42):
somebody said what?
Like surely we never, nobodywould ever say that Nobody would
ever behave like that.
And you're just like.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Exactly Like, yes, 100% Like.
It's just the level of fakeoutrage is at epic proportions
this year, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I know it's everyone's just like.
This election is so bad it's.
It's never been this bad inhistory before, and I'm like
y'all need some history podcastsin your life.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
You apparently have did not live at all during the
what early 19th century.
I feel like that was like thepeak of like american political
mudslinging and just ridiculousthings but I think it even goes
back farther than that, katiehow far is it?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
how, so far, I I mean everyone, every, everyone, mean
in America, everyone's likethis is the most pivotal
election in American history and, who knows, maybe it is, maybe
it isn't.
Make sure you get out there andvote, but I don't feel like
(01:57):
this is the craziest time inhistory.
I feel like there have been alot of crazy times in history.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yes, yes, much more intense, crazy times in history.
Yes, yes, much more intense,much crazier.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Like if you think this is crazy, I have some
Saguntumians that would beg todiffer.
Katie.
Some who's you want to say SomeSaguntumians?
Have you ever heard of them?
Where no, who are these folks?
I will vaguely mention them inmy story, vaguely.
(02:30):
I need to know more.
I will allude to themSagamuntians, that's like a
Roman thing, I think, isn't it?
It's not ringing any bells.
Not ringing any bells.
Well, stay tuned, and we mightring some bells for you, katie I
(02:50):
hope.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
so I'm pretty confused.
I'm going to have to Google it.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Let's bring in the Google.
Should we also mention what ourtopic is for this month?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yes, yes, what is it, cindy?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
What is it, Katie?
What is it what?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
is it, it's, it's?
You think no, you think no, Idon't even know.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We don't even know.
Nobody knows anything anymore.
It's the state of the world.
Our topic is you think this iscrazy?
Just buckle up, because it'sgonna get crazier, it's gonna
get crazier, and we mean in ahistory sort of way yeah, we've
been only fans for that other Iwas referring to the election,
(03:37):
katie, oh oh yeah what are youreferring?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
to how we keep this podcast afloat.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So, speaking of being crazy, do you want to go first,
katie, or do you want me to gofirst?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I don't mind going first, as long as you.
I mean, I feel like thedefinition of crazy is a little
subjective and I need you tojust kind of like bring down
your expectation a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
So actually.
So I went back and forth withthe topic, with my topic for a
bit Because, like you, I thinkyeah, what does it mean to be
crazy?
I was originally going to do mystory on presidential
assassinations.
Katie, do you know how manypresidents have had
assassination attempts againstthem?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
how many presidents have had assassination attempts
against them, like attempts orsuccessful, like just in general
?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
attempts in general uh, I'm gonna say six but, like
every single one of them, everysingle one of them has had
assassination attempts, now tovarying degrees of like attempt,
but it was.
It was kind of disturbing.
And then I was like Cindy readthe room, like maybe this is not
(04:53):
the appropriate time to talkabout presidential
assassinations, so I took atotally random twist of mine.
My point, just being with mystory, is just that all of
history has been crazy and Idon't.
Well, I think it's great tofeel like the time that you're
(05:13):
living in is pivotal andimportant because it is we.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
A crazy time in history is kind of subjective
and arguably every time inhistory has been a little bit
crazy, that's true, result insomething that never could have
(05:42):
been anticipated and just createsomething out of completely out
of left field.
That's monumental, um momentous, and just changes the world as
we know it, you know.
Well, that's discomforting,Cindy perhaps this podcast
episode sets into motion the endof the world I'm not saying
(06:08):
it's going to or perhaps itbrings about a utopian society.
We could go either way.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
That's a lot of pressure to put on our little
podcast, Katie I know, just thisepisode, just this one episode,
just this episode.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Okay, well, this one episode, just this episode, just
this one.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Oh, okay, well, bottoms up.
I guess we should say I have adrink in my hand, not the other
guy's.
Bottoms up, put that away.
Katie, put that away.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
If you want to see more, go on to our OnlyFans.
No no, we don't.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
No, but what's funny is we only have like three fans,
one of whom is still not mymother, katie and I are so old
that when we say OnlyFans we'rereferring to like our OnlyFans,
onlyfans we're referring to ourOnlyFans.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
So I went a little bit crazy with my topic.
So, Cindy, how much do you knowabout Anne Boleyn?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I've seen a few movies.
I've watched a few YouTubevideos on her few movies.
I've watched a few youtubevideos on her.
Uh, I know she lost her head,but I also know that she was
quite.
She was very smart, yes, kindof sassy, kind of I don't know
just kind of a cool, a coolchick until she lost her head.
(07:40):
And even then, even even then,she's still was.
She's been cool in history too.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes, and I don't want to undercut like her coolness
factor, that's kind of out thereby historians, but I, you know
she's really been portrayed aslike this scheming seductress,
that she's this likemanipulative woman who just like
beguiled Henry VIII, and I meanshe pretty much she's the
reason why we have the Church ofEngland and why the England
(08:10):
broke with the Catholic Church.
So that's a not insignificantrole to play in the history of
the world.
But if you do a little bit of adeeper dive, you know
historians are starting to kindof view her in a very different
light, like she's actually.
She is a woman who is veryintelligent, but her life is
(08:31):
actually really tragic.
And I don't want to turn thisinto like a poor little rich
girl story, but I feel likethere were a lot of things at
play that kind of forced herinto this role, this like very
prominent role in history, herinto this role, this like very
prominent role in history, and Icould say she kind of made the
best of it.
But a lot of things, terriblethings, happened to her to get
(08:51):
her to where she was and I I dofeel a lot, I feel like very
sorry for her, I mean aside fromlosing her head, but all the
other, everything else Inaddition to that, everything
else In addition to that, inaddition to that.
So my story is going to betaking, like I said, a little
closer look at at Anne Boleyn.
(09:12):
Maybe history should be alittle bit more forgiving of her
and a little bit moreunderstanding of her and not
necessarily view her as this,like femme fatale in, like a
ruffle collar.
Anne Boleyn was born around1501.
Historians are in a little bitof disagreement.
(09:32):
It's either like 1501 or 1507.
I feel like that's a really bigrange.
They lean a little bit moretowards 1501.
At Bickling Hall in Norfolk,england.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I just have to say too in my, in my biography if
people would like to leantowards like seven years after I
was actually born too, thatwould be okay with me.
Which?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
but.
But then it's gonna skeweverything backwards and your
husband's going to look like oh,kind of creepy, yeah, maybe
well, let's just skew everythingback seven years.
Well no, because then it's alljust proportionate.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
That's weird.
Okay, forget, I said anything.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
She was born in Bickling Hall in Norfolk,
england, into a noble family,though one not of the very
highest ranks.
Anne was described as herfather as being quote the
happiest of his children, whichis interesting because she was
the middle child.
That does not exist, butunfortunately her mother died
(10:33):
when she was still very young.
The Bolins were ambitious froma young age and was groomed for
a life at court.
She spent the majority of heryouth in what is now modern-day
Belgium and then later in Frenchcourt, an experience that would
actually shape her in verysignificant ways.
So in France she obviouslylearned how to speak French,
which at the time was like thelanguage of nobility, not
(10:53):
necessarily just Latin and Greek, although others were
instructed in that language, butFrench was really what the
upper crust spoke.
And she also refined hereducation in literature and
music and in dance.
So Anne's education and notjust formal education but also
(11:13):
her education in like the finerthings in life and and French
fashion and music it gave herthis unique presence that when
she returned to England shereally kind of like when she
when she could walk into a roomand light it up, essentially,
which I feel is like what theysay at every Dateline and NBC.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
That's exactly what I was going to say too.
We smiled at the room.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
She's described as being very witty, very
well-spoken and just overallvery magnetic personality spoken
and just overall very magneticpersonality.
And it is also really importantto understand that Anne was not
necessarily considered likeconventional beauty of the time
but that like her allure camefrom that, that inner radiance
that she just kind of exuded.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
That's what people say about me too.
They're like we like her forher personality, but you said it
a lot in a much nicer way.
She's got a great personality.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
She's really got good morals, nice.
So Anne eventually did returnto English court around 1521 in
order to marry James Butler, theson of Sir Pierce Butler, but
this was in order to settle aland dispute, not because she
actually loved him.
However, the marriage nevertook place and it was suggested
(12:35):
that this was influenced byCardinal Wolseley at the behest
of King Henry.
In 1522, she actually joinedthe household of Queen Catherine
of Aragorn, henry VIII's firstwife, and at this time Anne
really didn't have any interestin Henry.
And by 1522, she was actuallyengaged to Henry Percy, who was
(12:58):
the son of a noble family and hewas in Colonel Wolseley's
retinue.
Everybody's kind ofintermarried and connected to
everybody.
So a lot of these names aregoing to pop up over and over
and over again.
Unfortunately, this relationshipagain was ended by the Cardinal
and under pressure.
We do have a lot of evidencethat Henry was definitely
(13:19):
involved, that she caught hiseye and he really wanted to put
the kibosh on this.
Anne was kind of banished toher home and have her castle,
and Henry Percy was forced tomarry another woman.
Anne was absolutely heartbrokenand her plans for marriage and
to have a peaceful andconventional life were destroyed
(13:39):
.
So, cindy, here's where we'regoing to have to pause for a
minute and just kind of consideranne's position.
So henry's the king and he'sgot immense power, and this is
at a time when royal authoritywas absolutely he could do
whatever he wants.
Throw you in a dungeon yeah,sure, why not?
if you want to go, uh over toireland and commit some
(14:02):
atrocities, why not?
I'm the king, I can do whateverI want.
And her own sister and hermarried name is Carrie.
Her first name is Mary, soshe's Mary Carrie.
She was one of Henry'smistresses and supposedly the
father of two of her children,and Henry had her as one of his
mistresses up until 1526, whenhe starts pursuing Anne.
(14:26):
And Anne is really faced withonly a couple of choices.
She can either reject the kingoutright, which is impossible
because he's not going to takeno for an answer, but if she
gives in to him and becomes hismistress, she could just be cast
aside when he loses interest inher as well, and she would be
ruined.
No man would want to take heron for a number of reasons, and
(14:50):
it would just be very difficult.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Can I stop you for a second here?
So why did Henry want to pursueher?
We know she lit up a room, litup a room, aka, she had a great
personality.
But why did he?
What was it about herspecifically?
I mean, he broke off anengagement for her, or he broke
(15:16):
off her engagement, like why?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I think I think it was that just the draw of her.
I do think that she was thatengaging and I do also feel like
it's a little bit of a he wantswhat he can't have, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I'm the king I should be able to have whatever I want
.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And she was resistant to him.
In fact she, like in in 1526,1527, she goes into like a
self-imposed exile.
She leaves and goes to herfamily's estate to kind of get
away from the court and get awayfrom things.
And henry starts writing herlove letters.
(15:52):
But and we, which we still have, we don't have any of her
letters that survive from, fromand to henry.
They were destroyed.
After, after she was executed,he went on like a rampage and
the Romans would refer to it asdamnatio memoriae.
It literally means thedamnation of memory, where you
go out and you scrub everyexistence of that person off the
(16:14):
planet, essentially as if theynever really existed.
And so one of those things hejust like all of her letters
were destroyed.
I know that there's a number ofof places where, like, her
initials were like carved offthe sides of buildings and you
know, her monogram was destroyedso that literally no reference
to her ever existed.
And the letters that we have,they're really interesting in
(16:38):
what Henry has to write to herabout, when his love letters
really say to her, and they'reall written in French because,
again, at the time that's thelanguage of the courtly set,
it's the language of love.
So one of his letters he wrote,he sent her a deer and he sent
a letter that says- Wait, likeliterally a deer.
(17:00):
Yes, like a buck.
And he wrote you know, this isa buck killed late last night by
my own hand, hoping that whenyou eat of it you may think of
the hunter.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
So years ago when I was on Matchcom, I had several
men write me similar letters.
They never actually sent me abuck, but they were like, hey, I
can hunt you dinner and cook itfor you.
And I was like delete, swipe,delete.
So I don't know where Henrylearned his wooing skills, but
(17:40):
that would not work for me.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I mean, I feel like when you do the king, no one's
really going to criticize yourwooing skills.
They're like yes, sir, thatsounds like a great woo Woo Hoo,
go for it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Woo, woo Hoo Hmm.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Oh, letter 15 is very .
I think you're going to lovethis.
Um Henry, writes he and this isa quote wishing myself
especially an evening in mysweetheart's arms.
Those pretty and I'm assumingthat the pronunciation is ducks,
it's D-U-K-K-Y-S duckies.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I trust worthy to kiss.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Is that referring to what I think it's referring?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
to Cindy what do you think duckies are?
I think you know what I thinkduckies are, katie.
This is a family-friendly show.
They always come in pairs.
They always come in pairs.
Well, I shouldn't say thatSometimes they don't, but
typically Sometimes there's likefive.
Oh, wait, no.
Typically Sometimes there'slike five, wait, no.
(18:45):
Always in sex, five littleduckies.
What are you?
I feel like we're on twodifferent pages here right now.
Yes, cindy, we are.
Five little duckies went out oneday Over the hills and far away
(19:09):
, Cindy duckies are breasts Iknow they are Katie, but then
you said they don't always comein pairs and I thought you meant
ducks.
If you've had a mastectomy,okay, then can we just delete
from the record.
If you've had a mastectomy,okay, then can we just delete
from the record.
When I sang the song FiveLittle Ducks, ducks, ducks, duck
(19:41):
, duck goose, mammery ducks,aren't they called ducks?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yes, it took us a little while to get there, but
we did.
Mammery ducks, I'm crying.
Oh Jesus Christ, we got there,katie.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
So he wanted to kiss the ducks and some might
consider these letters verysweet, a symbol of a man's
undying affection.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Can I just state for the record that I did not at any
point, yes, think that maybeit's the 21st century in me and
and I would agree because, ashistorian hayley nolan says, if
it can end in decapitation, itwas never love.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I second that If it can end in decapitation, it was
never love.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I second that.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So by 1527, Henry was absolutely desperate to have
Anne as his queen.
But Anne had one little problemshe was already married.
She was already married.
Don't you hate when somethinglike a wife gets in the way of?
I hate that, I do.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I do, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Anne's relationship with Henry became the center of
political and religiouswhirlwind as Henry sought an
annulment.
Henry's obsession with Annebecame so intense that he broke
with the Pope and the Catholicchurch entirely, leading to the
English reformation.
And you know, anne was,historians say, like she was
(21:33):
waiting and hoping for marriage.
Because she did not.
She was so religious and shewas so committed to her morals
that she didn't want to be thismistress.
She didn't want to be kind oftossed aside, she wanted to have
some kind of security.
And she had to endure years ofinsults and rumors and his
hostility, not just from withinthe court but outside the court.
(21:56):
And many of Catherine'ssupporters viewed her as this
usurper, a harlot who was tryingto destroy their beloved queen
and destabilize England.
And the public's hatred for Annebecame intense.
She was called the Great Whoreand all these rumors about her
were swirling.
They claimed that she was awitch and that she had beguiled
(22:18):
the king and she was just tryingto bring an end to their
society.
And her position was becomingmore and more dangerous.
She wasn't this power-hungrywoman who's bent on breaking up
a marriage, but she was justkind of caught up in the desires
of this king who she reallycouldn't refuse in any real way.
(22:40):
Henry had his sights set on herand there was very little that
she could do besides try and thebest way that she could to
maneuver security for herselfand any of her future children.
We do have some evidence thatthe toll was very hard on her
mental and physical health andshe had to wait for years, kind
(23:01):
of like in this limbo.
It wasn't until 1533 thatHenry's marriage to Catherine
was finally annulled and Annebecame queen.
There is some speculation thatshe and Henry had married in
secret the previous year, in1532, because by her coronation
in June 1533, she's visibly andheavily pregnant and there's a
(23:23):
lot of speculation that shewouldn't have consummated their
relationship until she was, inher eyes, actually married to
him.
And the pressure on Anne onlyintensified because, as we know,
catherine never provided Henrywith a male heir and the hope
(23:44):
was and expectation was thatAnne was going to give him that
desperately desired male heir.
And the hope was and theexpectation was that Anne was
going to give him thatdesperately desired male heir.
But her first child wasElizabeth and she was a huge
disappointment for Henry at thetime.
But she grew up to become oneof England's greatest monarchs.
So Anne's position was stillreally precarious.
So she had produced a child butnot a male heir.
(24:06):
Anne's position was stillreally precarious, so she had
produced a child but not a maleheir.
She still really had no strongallies in court.
The king's counselors were kindof eager to see her replaced,
especially after she gotpregnant very quickly again but
then suffered a miscarriage andHenry's affections really
started to shift after thatsecond miscarriage and he
started to get kind of flirtyand kind of touchy touchy with
(24:28):
gene seymour that name should bevery familiar, dr quinn went
medicine woman, yes, I mean theother one.
Yes, both of them wonderfulladies.
I'm sure um ann gets pregnantagain after this.
That second that um ann getspregnant again after this, that
(24:50):
second that Anne gets pregnantagain after that miscarriage,
and her hopes for remainingrelevant are kind of pinned on
this pregnancy.
However, in January January of1536, henry falls from his horse
and he's knocked unconsciousfor about two hours, just five
days after Henry's accident, andmiscarries her baby.
Historians kind of surmise thatafter Henry fell off the horse
(25:13):
he was unconscious.
He probably suffered somesignificant brain damage,
because afterward his behaviorstarts to become even more
erratic and extreme.
And by April so this is 3months after she's had a
miscarriage he starts aninvestigation into claims that
(25:33):
the queen is committing treasonagainst him behind his back.
So by 1536, henry finally findsa way to rid himself of Anne.
She gets arrested for adultery,incest and charges of high
treason, charges that todayhistorians are 100% sure were
(25:54):
just completely fabricated,particularly considering that
Anne, she was very deeplyreligious.
And at this time you know, eventhough you're the Queen of
England, you're going to havevery little privacy.
You're going to have, you know,your handmaidens, your
ladies-in-waiting, constantlyaround you.
You never really have any freetime to yourself.
So how could she arrange tohave one lover, let alone five,
(26:18):
that she's accused of havingaffairs with, including her own
brother?
And, like I said, there's noevidence to suggest that she was
ever unfaithful to Henry?
This is just a reallyconvenient way for him to try
and get rid of her and also someother political rivals.
So Anne is subjected to a shamtrial and despite her passionate
(26:41):
defense, which she maintains upuntil she's executed, she's
found guilty and sentenced todeath.
So even in her final days sheshowed remarkable composure.
We have letters from her jailerto others, kind of stating that
the most that she can beaccused of is just kind of
(27:02):
breaking down her final hoursand just accepting not
necessarily accepting her fate,but just the realization that
she's going to die and there'snot going to be like a last
minute save or she's not goingto get out of this in any way.
And so she was, I guess, justpraying and begging God to save
her.
But I guess, you know, she,like I said, she maintained her
(27:25):
innocence until the very, veryend.
On May 19th of 1536, anne wasexecuted by a French swordsman,
who was brought in at herrequest to procure her a quick
and painless death as opposed todeath by axe.
And she was only 35 years old.
11 days later, henry marriedJane Seymour.
(27:46):
Talk about a quick, quickrebound.
So even though I feel like, eventhough Anne's story is it is
tragic, I feel like we shouldkind of remember with more
sympathy rather than scorn andkind of say well, you know, she
got what she deserved.
She broke up a marriage and shewas a seductress.
You know, she was just more oflike a victim of herress.
(28:07):
You know she was just more oflike a victim of her time.
You know she didn't really havea lot of choices and when it
seemed like she was going tohave her happy ending, I feel
like a lot of things were kindof taken away from her by, you
know, by essentially one man whowanted what he wanted.
He didn't really care about her, her life or what, what, what
she wanted, but in the end Ifeel like Anne kind of got her
her life or what she wanted.
(28:27):
But in the end I feel like Annekind of got her revenge and her
comeuppance because her daughterended up becoming one of the
most powerful women in the world, even though she really didn't
know her mother.
I mean, she was only what threewhen her mother died, and
that's like the other crazything.
You know, henry went throughall this work to you know.
Get an annulment from Catherine.
Only for three years later.
Get an annulment from Catherineonly for three years later.
(28:48):
Get an annulment from Anne andhave her executed.
You know, I feel like that.
All that work, all that strifeand struggle and tearing apart
your country for for what?
For what reason?
So I, just I, I feel likehistory should be a little bit
kinder to Anne Bolin, I feellike history should be a little
bit kinder.
To Anne Bolin Hear, hear, katie,so did you read anything that
(29:20):
kind of gives us a glimpse intohow Anne felt about Henry,
because there's so little that'ssaved of hers Like there's not
like a lot of letters saved ofhers Like there's there's not
like a lot of letters and, um,at that time women were really
supposed to, you know,essentially stand by your man
and support your husband, evenwhen things are going wrong.
And, um, because your behaviorand how you speak of your
husband is a reflection of him.
(29:41):
And so, from what I've read andwhat I've I've seen, she was
never really critical of him.
It was more you know, we're allin this together, we're all,
you know, like you're in aunited front.
Um, I support him because he'sthe king and he's, you know,
appointed by god and so whateverhe says, kind of goes so do you
(30:04):
think it's more, um, so like?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
here you know, henry comes along and he breaks off
her engagement with somebodyelse.
Um, do you think that she wasjust kind of like, okay, well,
let me turn my attention now tohenry, because he's interested,
and that's what I'm supposed todo.
I'm supposed to stand by my manRather than like.
Did she?
Did she carry some kind ofresentment towards him this
(30:30):
entire time that she just kindof had to work past?
Or I'm just wondering howcomplicated were her feelings
about him?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I imagine very complicated, and you bring up a
very good point, you know, andyou bring up a very good point,
you know, did she know?
I mean, on some level she musthave known that he was the one
to break up her engagement.
You know, on some did she?
(31:01):
She must have that's a reallygood question.
She must have, Because ifCardinal Woolsey is saying it
and he doesn't have a goodreason to break up their
engagement, the only other thinghas to be Henry.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
It's the kind of thing.
Can we stand here 500 yearslater and say, oh, surely she
knows, or she must have knownwhat was happening, but maybe
she didn't, I don't know.
I just feel like, how do youeven if you stay quiet about it
throughout your entire marriageto the king how do you not carry
(31:39):
some kind of resentment,especially towards the end,
where you're just like man, likelooking?
Back on my life and all thethings that happened.
This guy's a real jerk Like.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I should have just fled to France when I had the
chance.
Exactly, damn it.
And and we, you know when wethink or at least a very
simplified view I think, that wehave of of monarchy and
aristocracy is oh, they have avery easy life, they have a
charmed life, they can make,they can do whatever they want.
(32:12):
They can, and to some extent.
But she really didn't.
There weren't.
You know, she was at the, youknow, at the control of her of,
excuse me, she was really, youknow, at the mercy of her father
and then at the mercy of theking and kind of had to do
whatever they said.
You know, she wasn't reallyleft with as many choices as we
(32:33):
really think she had availableto her, you know, I know, and
jokingly we say, oh, she justcould have fled to france, but
that's not really a viableoption for her at this time you
know, it's really sad.
It's like how many choices, howmany choices that we make are
truly our own.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I feel like it's a little too heavy for the day
before yes, but I mean, I think,and then I think there's all of
that and then, plus, theoverarching theme that you you
already mentioned, is that theentire country of england was at
(33:10):
the mercy of this guy and theperson that he had a, he had a
crush on like literally thewhole country could have
crumbled, yeah, could havecrumbled to its knees, because
he had a crush on somebody.
And he's like I'm the kind ofguy who gets what I want, if, if
I want it, I'm going to get it,just like wow, you really put
that into perspective.
Like that's crazy, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's absolutely bananas.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
So, katie, let's play a little word association game.
Shall we Okay?
Yes, I say Rome, you say Caesar.
Carthage.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Salt their fields, so nothing may grow for a thousand
years.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Elephants.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Hannibal.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Hannibal.
Yes, so, as you know, katie, asI know you well know this
Carthage and Rome were at battlewith each other for a long time
.
Yes, in fact, they were inbattle with each other between
264 to 146 BCE.
There were three wars betweenthem during this time, known as
(34:27):
the Punic Wars.
Thank you, you're welcome.
The Roman Empire and Carthagewho can I just point out for
anyone who's not Katie, who maynot know this, those were the
Phoenicians, and the funny thingabout Phoenicians is that, in
my mind, phoenicia, phoenicia,yeah, phoenicia came way before
(34:48):
Rome.
I honestly didn't really havean appreciation for how much
overlap that they had.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Oh, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yes, so you have the Roman Empire and you have
Carthage, who were thePhoenicians, and they were
battling each other for controlof various areas of the
Mediterranean.
Spoiler alert Rome won allthree Punic Wars but Carthage.
They put up a really impressivefight.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Katie.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
They did.
Let's do a slow clap forCarthage.
Now, Katie, you know the nameHannibal Barca.
Does the name Hannibal Barcaoverwhelm you with feelings of
fear and reverence?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
I do respect him as a military leader.
He did a pretty good job.
But I mean, if I saw himbearing down on me with
elephants, yes, yes, I'd be veryafraid.
With elephants, I'd, yes, yes,I'd be very afraid.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
It's a little easy to be on like one side of a
computer screen with amicrophone being like oh,
hannibal Barger, I don't knowwhat the big deal is, I could
take him in a.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
I could take him in a fight.
He's not that hard.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I could take him in an arm wrestle.
Well, the name should overwhelmyou with feelings of fear and
reverence, because this is howhe made Roman leaders feel for
years, even after the Punic Warswere over.
So Hannibal Barca was born inCarthage, which is now modern
day Tunisia, in 247 BCE.
The Carthage government hadbeen in decline for years, but
the tensions between Carthageand Rome had been growing.
In 241 BCE, the First Punic Warwas lost to Rome and, if you do
(36:30):
the math, this was around theexact same time that Hannibal
was growing up.
Hannibal's dad was a Carthagegeneral, and it was expected
that Hannibal would become ageneral as well.
He was given a strongintellectual education and he
was also taught advancedmilitary methods.
He was also infused with thishorrendous hatred of Rome from a
(36:53):
very young age.
I mean, everyone was just likeyou have to hate Rome.
This is what we do.
So at 26 years old, Hannibalwas made leader of the Carthage
military.
What were you doing at 26,Katie?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Oh God, I think I was working at Whole Foods.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
You weren't running a military, the Carthage military
, no, no.
So Hannibal was made leader ofthe Carthage military in 221 BCE
and while he was busy makingpreparations to seize power in
the Mediterranean, the Romanswere doing nothing about it.
So they were receiving likeallegedly they were receiving
(37:35):
warnings about Hannibal'spreparations, but they were like
meh, like what's up in Ileria,like let's think about anything
else but Hannibal.
So, for whatever reason, romejust didn't care about Hannibal.
So when he attacked the town ofSaguntum, remember Saguntimians
(37:55):
I think that's how you wouldpronounce it, I don't know.
Anyway, hannibal attacks thetown of Saguntum in 219, and
Rome still didn't do anythingabout it.
Now, saguntum was a verywell-fortified city and it took
(38:16):
months, but Hannibal's troopsfinally defeated Saguntum.
Now, during this time, saguntumhad contacted Rome for help,
but Rome didn't send any help.
So after Hannibal defeated thecity, he offered to spare the
people of Saguntum on conditionthat they were quote willing to
(38:36):
depart from Saguntum unarmed,each with two garments, which is
very specific.
That's very nice.
What two garments would youtake, katie?
Somebody said you can only taketwo garments only two socks,
that's not even count, it's onegarment are they a pair?
You only get one you only gettwo socks, that's it.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
You can get two socks , it's one, it's one garment
well, I mean not not to be, notto be a w downer or like a buzz
kill or joy kill, but with theromans you really only needed to
.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
You could have your tunic and then your toga, and
then you're good so basicallywhat he said, what he meant was
you can bring your toga and yourtunic like you have a whole
outfit and you're good.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
even if you were a female, well, you would wear
like a pala, which is like areally long dress that would be
attached by brooches, and thenyou could also have like a scarf
or like a whole, essentiallylike head-to-toe covering.
It's like a robe where you cancover yourself up.
So you'd be good.
You'd be good.
(39:43):
It's essentially, it would belike being able to take one
dress and like a coat.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So, like that wasn't unreasonable for him to say just
two things, right, okay, well,that was very nice then.
Well, I mean, the people ofSaguntum said no thanks to this
and they began to sabotage thetown's wealth and possessions.
So Hannibal had every singleadult in Saguntum killed, and
then, and only then, was Romelike let's do this, I suppose,
(40:18):
and the Second Punic War began.
So once again, rome andCarthage were at war.
Hannibal was like okay, this isit, we're just going to cut to
the chase and head to Rome andmake the Romans defend their own
territory, and the fastest wayto do this is to cross over the
Alps, and we're going to do itwith elephants.
(40:41):
Now, this is the part of thestory where people hearing this
story for the first time arelike wait, wait, wait.
Where did these elephants justcome from?
Like you just completely threwme a.
This is the part of the storywhere people hearing this story
for the first time are like wait, wait, wait, where, where did
these elephants just come from?
Like you just completely threwme a curve ball.
What's the deal with theelephants?
And who in their right mindwould cross the Alps with
elephants?
And congratulations, this isexactly the reaction Hannibal
was going for, but there was alittle bit more to it than that.
(41:05):
So if the elephants seemedrandom, then you should know
that war elephants were anintegral part of armies during
this time period.
Carthage used war elephants andeven the romans used uh
elephants, although they usedthem less as soldiers and more
as pack animals.
On the battlefield, elephantswould often be stationed on the
(41:28):
wings to keep the infantry frombeing flanked, or they would be
put in line in front of theinfantry.
So can you imagine Katie beingon foot on the opposing side and
having a herd of elephantscharge at you?
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Oh, I'd be scared, scared, poopy, less, like I
would just be scared duckless.
All my ducks would just myducks would just pop right, my
duckies would just pop right offso ran off one day when they
saw a big ass elephant comingover the Alps.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
So elephants were also particularly useful against
Calvary, since horses wereterrified by their size, smell
and sound.
Now, as a Ulysses S Grant horsegirl, I can tell you that
horses are terrified of likeplastic bags that blow by.
So they did not do too wellagainst these elephants that
(42:30):
blow by.
So they did not do too wellagainst these elephants.
But now this might surprise you, but there are a lot of
problems too with havingelephants in your army, other
than the fact that elephants arehuge and they eat a ton and
they cost a lot of money.
Elephants have a tendency topanic when they are injured, and
what would happen is if thesewar elephants were injured
during battle, they would oftenturn around and stomp on their
(42:53):
own troops.
Now, apparently this happenedquite often, so much so that the
Romans actually referred toelephants as the common enemy.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
The enemy of my enemy is an elephant.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
So Carthage began training elephant troops in the
first decades of the thirdcentury BCE.
By the time the first Punic Warbegan in 264 BCE, they had
accumulated quite the number oftrained elephants.
Now I should also mention thatthese elephants most likely
belonged to a now extinctsubspecies of African forest
(43:26):
elephant.
They were quite a bit smallerthan african forest elephants.
They were only about eight feettall and weighed around three
tons, which still is that's hugeto me, but it's like a travel
size elephant, I guess it's a.
It's like a reasonable size foran elephant right, and they were
also highly trainable.
(43:47):
Now, carthage used elephants alot during the First Punic War
and the results were they weremixed.
During the Battle of Agrigentumin 262 BCE, the Romans killed
or injured 50 to 60 elephants,but during the Battle of Bagdras
River, approximately 100elephants devastated the front
(44:10):
ranks of the Roman Legion andtrampled many other Roman
soldiers.
So you know it's a mixed bagwhen you work with war elephants
.
I'm sorry, cindy, I can think.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Mama tell me how Daddy Dad got trampled by an
elephant.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Like a hundred elephants, that's so many
elephants.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Like a hundred elephants.
That's so many elephants.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Like a hundred elephants.
It's a lot of elephants.
So, yeah, it's also worthnoting that Hannibal's own
father, Hamilcar Barca, was verysuccessful at using elephants
to conquer territory in Spain.
Hannibal later used the sameelephant herd in Spain to
conquer a coalition of tribes in220 BCE.
(44:54):
My point being, Katie, thatusing elephants to attack Rome
wasn't just a random idea.
Hannibal had one day.
Elephants had been used foryears and Hannibal had seen
firsthand just how effectiveelephants could be when they
were used against troops who hadnever seen them before.
So Hannibal had this plan.
(45:15):
He's like let's go to Italythrough the Alps with men and
horses and elephants.
I feel like I should also addthat he could not move his
forces by sea as he did not haveenough allied ports to
successfully go that route.
So it's not like he had a lotof choices.
Going over the Alps with horsesand elephants was like
(45:38):
basically his only choice.
So even though that was hisonly choice, it still wasn't a
very easy plan.
Katie, have you ever gonehiking in the snow?
Yes, it's awful, Right.
Yes, Now try hiking in the snowwith 70,000 men, 20,000 horses
(46:01):
and 37 elephants.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
I would still pick it over going hiking in the winter
with two small children any dayof the week.
Much more manageable.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
But this was the brilliance of Hannibal's plan.
No one figured he would do this.
Because it's so insane, right,yes, it's insane, like I
wouldn't do this.
Well, you said you might dothat over going hiking with
children, but still like, reallywho's going to do this?
You said you might do that overgoing to the children, but
still like, really, who's goingto do this?
This was a plan that was sodangerous that it easily could
(46:38):
have become one of history'sgreatest military disasters, but
nonetheless, hannibal marchedhis troops to the Alps in
October of 218 BCE.
They were approaching winter,so the weather was cold and it
was harsh.
And I haven't been to phoeniciaI know it doesn't exist anymore
(46:59):
, but my guess is that they'renot really dressed appropriately
for the cold weather.
I guess they did put likespikes on the bottom of their
sandals to help them on the ice,but they're still wearing
sandals.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
If it makes you feel better, they would wear.
In general, the Romans wouldwear socks with sandals or boots
.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
And why do people judge me when I do that?
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Because you're not a second century infantryman.
That's why I see, if you didthe whole outfit, then they'd be
like, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Oh, I see what she's doing here.
If I'm wearing Birkenstocks,does that also make a difference
?
Speaker 2 (47:46):
You know, I think I feel like it depends on the sock
, like if it's a fun sock, youcan get away with it, more than
if it's just like your typicalwhite tube sock like if it's a
toe sock with the individualtoes I think you might get away
with that.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I saw the face you made when I said toe socks
though katie it was, I feel likeyou're not a fan.
I'm not not a fan of the toesocks.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
I think it's because I think about trying to wedge my
toes into those socks and it'sjust like sensory hell for me,
yeah.
I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
So Hannibal's marching his troops through the
Alps, they're surrounded bythese precipices.
And so I mean literally wedon't have pictures, we have
paintings and things.
And so I mean literally wedon't have pictures, we have
paintings and things, but like Imean according to accounts, you
know, any mistakes, andmovement meant animals going off
the sides with their loads.
(48:38):
And this happened like people,like animals went off the sides
with their loads they werecarrying.
They were also attacked on theway by some tribes.
They always managed to fightthem off, um, but still they had
to constantly deal with that.
They also.
They also did deter otherattacks from other tribes just
with the presence of theirelephants.
(48:59):
So, like some, some tribesattacked them and some tribes
were like we don't know whatthose things are, we're not
going near them so again, mixedbag of results.
Hannibal also allegedly came upwith a way to cut through all of
the snow and ice using wine andfire.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
But I caution you, this may be a myth I love it,
though that's how I saw solveall of my personal problems.
Wine and fire one or the otherWine and fire.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
So, regardless, they made it to the top of the pass
in only nine days.
Which props to them.
That is so impressive.
The men and the animals wereexhausted, so Hannibal
encouraged them by saying thisis it you guys?
It's all downhill from here, nomore hills to climb.
But remember what I said, katie, about hiking in the snow.
(49:53):
Have you ever hiked downhill inthe snow?
Much worse, it's like athousand times worse.
Men and animals were slippingand sliding everywhere.
We're talking men, horses,elephants slipping and sliding
and crashing into each other.
On top of that, they were allfreezing and starving and
(50:15):
exhausted.
I don't know the numbers.
A lot of men and horses died.
It's unclear how many elephantsdied, but it sounds like at
least 30 elephants actuallysurvived.
Uh, which is good, for that'smuch better than I would have
yeah, but I'm also thinking,okay, elephant, horse, man,
(50:40):
right, like if they're allsliding, like chances are, it's
like a boulder coming down, yeah, yeah, I feel like the boulder
stands a better chance ofsurviving.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
True, when you frame it that way.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
So not only did Hannibal manage to march his
army across the Alps, they madethe journey in just 16 days.
That's really impressive.
So shortly after descendinginto Northern Italy, they fought
their first major battle withthe Roman army at Trebia.
Here Hannibal used hiselephants in a successful charge
alongside the cavalry againstthe Roman wings.
(51:16):
But unfortunately, this was thelast hurrah for Hannibal's
elephants.
All but one eventually diedfrom the snow and cold of winter
in northern Italy.
Eventually died from the snowand cold of winter in northern
Italy.
The one elephant who survivedwas nicknamed the Syrian, which
is a very specific name why?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Why are they called the?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Syrian.
I mean, I don't know if it waslike a compliment, like for
being strong and being the onlysurvivor, or if it was like an
insult.
It might have been an insidejoke.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Those Carthaginian inside jokes.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
You had to be there, cindy, you had to be there.
You had to be there.
But anyway, the Syrian becameHannibal's personal elephant
mount.
So ultimately, hannibal wasright.
Crossing the Alps was thequickest way to get into Italy
and using elephants wasn't aterrible idea.
(52:18):
He probably would havecontinued to use his elephants
if they hadn't, you know, alldied.
So I'm not going to end thestory there, katie, I couldn't
possibly end the story there.
I got to tell you how it ends.
So the Romans immediatelyfortify Rome.
Hannibal couldn't directlyattack Rome anymore, so he tried
(52:40):
to ask leaders in Carthage forhelp, but they were all
incompetent and useless anddidn't do anything to help him.
So Hannibal had to attack Romeanother way.
Do you know how he attacked theRomans another way?
Like a different animal, orlike coming around, used the
(53:06):
minds of the Roman people.
He basically talked shit aboutRome to everyone in communities
surrounding Rome, and this wasthe first time in recorded
history where somebody usedpsychological warfare.
This caused a lot of civilunrest and caused Hannibal to
(53:30):
gain a strong army.
So basically he went around andhe was like hey, did you hear
about Rome?
Like let me tell you all thethings that are bad about Rome
and people were like oh yeah,we'd love to join your military,
so he gains this really strongarmy.
And this completely terrifiedthe Romans again, as this kind
of emotional manipulation hadnever been used against them.
(53:52):
So on August 2nd 216 BCE, theRomans decided to engage
Hannibal at Cannae.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Cannae.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Cannae.
Oh, okay, let me do that againthe proper way.
On August 2nd 216 BCE, theRomans decided to engage
Hannibal at Cannae withapproximately 86,000 Roman and
allied troops.
Yet Hannibal basicallysurrounded the Romans with his
huge army and he slaughteredthem.
Hannibal wiped out 80% of theRoman army that day.
(54:24):
The Battle of Cannae isregarded as one of the worst
defeats in Roman history and oneof the most impressive tactical
defeats in military history.
So despite this victory, theSecond Punic War continued for
years and without support fromCarthage, hannibal was never
(54:44):
able to mount a direct attack onRome.
He was forced to surrender in202 BCE.
Hannibal returned home, but hekept pretty busy.
He ran for office in Carthageand then he eventually oversaw
the navy in Greece and laterBithynia, which is present-day
Turkey.
His last military stroke ofgenius was in 184 BCE, when
(55:08):
Bithynia found itself at warwith Pergamon in Greece.
Hannibal's fleet was reallybadly outnumbered by the
Pergamonians, I guess.
But given his love forunconventional tactics, hannibal
(55:29):
came up with a really badassplan.
Do you know what he did, katie?
What, tell me?
He ordered his ships to beloaded with clay pots full of
venomous snakes.
He then had those clay potscatapulted into the Pergamonian
ships.
The snakes not only bit sailors, but they caused, I think some
(55:53):
people were bit.
I think mostly it just caused alot of panic.
It just caused a lot of panicand confusion among the ranks,
which allowed the Bithynianfleet To directly target the
ship Carrying the leader ofPergamon.
And we don't know, there's nolike record of how it ended up.
(56:15):
But, as usual, hannibal left alasting impression and, in case
you're wondering, he died in aTurkish village at age 65.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Good for him Couldn't even pull retirement, though I
know I know.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
I know, I know he just hung in a little bit longer
, but yeah, so that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Can I tell?
Let me ask you this Do you knowwhat the counter to elephants
is Like, what the Romans woulddo?
One of the strategies tocounter an elephant?
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Oh, like an actual, like an actual strategy to
counter elephants.
Peanuts, that's a good guess.
No, no, what would they?
Speaker 2 (57:04):
do so.
You take a pig.
I did not.
I already did not see thiscoming.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
You take a pig I did not, I already did not see this
coming.
You take a pig, you grease itup.
No, no, you set it on fire.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
No, you are making this up you set it towards the
elephants and make them allpanic and run and scream yes, no
, that's literally what they do.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yes, cindy, they actually had a strategy.
They had a specific strategy.
They're like this is ourprotocol, this is what we do.
If you see an elephant coming,you're going to grab a pig,
you're going to grease it up,light it on fire.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
They're incendiary war pigs, cindy, no, get out,
it's true.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
It's true, oh my god, you fight.
You know we say you fight firewith fire.
No, you fight elephants withincendiary war pigs.
Yes, get out.
Isn't that fantastic, oh my God.
So I have to say, you know, Ipicked this story because it was
(58:19):
just, I mean, it was just oneof thousands of crazy stories
about things in history, but Ihad no idea, like I.
Okay, when you guys go to thepolls tomorrow or any day,
whenever you read the news andyou're just like like this is,
this is, these are crazy timeswe live in.
(58:41):
When's the last time somebodycatapulted a pig on fire at you,
or a jar of snakes or a jar ofsnakes, because your ship was in
the way, like come on.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
I mean Cindy.
I feel like if a candidate saidyou know what we're gonna do,
we're gonna catapult a jar ofsnakes at all of our problems,
I'd be like you know what.
You have my vote.
People would be like it's ametaphor.
Katie and I are like you knowwhat you have my vote people
will be like it's a metaphor.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Kate and I are like no, that's real crazy times.
What a great time to be alive.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Thank you.
Well, hi Katie.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hi Cindy, how are you ?
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm good.
Happy election season to you.
And a happy election season toyou and all those who celebrate
can I just say I'm a big fan ofthe 11th hour mudslinging and
pearl clutching.
I love it, I love, I love howeveryone's just like like
(00:42):
somebody said what?
Like surely we never, nobodywould ever say that Nobody would
ever behave like that.
And you're just like.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Exactly Like, yes, 100% Like.
It's just the level of fakeoutrage is at epic proportions
this year, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
I know it's everyone's just like.
This election is so bad it's.
It's never been this bad inhistory before, and I'm like
y'all need some history podcastsin your life.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
You apparently have did not live at all during the
what early 19th century.
I feel like that was like thepeak of like american political
mudslinging and just ridiculousthings but I think it even goes
back farther than that, katiehow far is it?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
how, so far, I I mean everyone, every, everyone, mean
in America, everyone's likethis is the most pivotal
election in American history and, who knows, maybe it is, maybe
it isn't.
Make sure you get out there andvote, but I don't feel like
(01:57):
this is the craziest time inhistory.
I feel like there have been alot of crazy times in history.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Yes, yes, much more intense, crazy times in history.
Yes, yes, much more intense,much crazier.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Like if you think this is crazy, I have some
Saguntumians that would beg todiffer.
Katie.
Some who's you want to say SomeSaguntumians?
Have you ever heard of them?
Where no, who are these folks?
I will vaguely mention them inmy story, vaguely.
(02:30):
I need to know more.
I will allude to themSagamuntians, that's like a
Roman thing, I think, isn't it?
It's not ringing any bells.
Not ringing any bells.
Well, stay tuned, and we mightring some bells for you, katie I
(02:50):
hope.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
so I'm pretty confused.
I'm going to have to Google it.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Let's bring in the Google.
Should we also mention what ourtopic is for this month?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Yes, yes, what is it, cindy?
Speaker 1 (03:05):
What is it, Katie?
What is it what?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
is it, it's, it's?
You think no, you think no, Idon't even know.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We don't even know.
Nobody knows anything anymore.
It's the state of the world.
Our topic is you think this iscrazy?
Just buckle up, because it'sgonna get crazier, it's gonna
get crazier, and we mean in ahistory sort of way yeah, we've
been only fans for that other Iwas referring to the election,
(03:37):
katie, oh oh yeah what are youreferring?
Speaker 2 (03:42):
to how we keep this podcast afloat.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So, speaking of being crazy, do you want to go first,
katie, or do you want me to gofirst?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I don't mind going first, as long as you.
I mean, I feel like thedefinition of crazy is a little
subjective and I need you tojust kind of like bring down
your expectation a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
So actually.
So I went back and forth withthe topic, with my topic for a
bit Because, like you, I thinkyeah, what does it mean to be
crazy?
I was originally going to do mystory on presidential
assassinations.
Katie, do you know how manypresidents have had
assassination attempts againstthem?
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
how many presidents have had assassination attempts
against them, like attempts orsuccessful, like just in general
?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
attempts in general uh, I'm gonna say six but, like
every single one of them, everysingle one of them has had
assassination attempts, now tovarying degrees of like attempt,
but it was.
It was kind of disturbing.
And then I was like Cindy readthe room, like maybe this is not
(04:53):
the appropriate time to talkabout presidential
assassinations, so I took atotally random twist of mine.
My point, just being with mystory, is just that all of
history has been crazy and Idon't.
Well, I think it's great tofeel like the time that you're
(05:13):
living in is pivotal andimportant because it is we.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
A crazy time in history is kind of subjective
and arguably every time inhistory has been a little bit
crazy, that's true, result insomething that never could have
(05:42):
been anticipated and just createsomething out of completely out
of left field.
That's monumental, um momentous, and just changes the world as
we know it, you know.
Well, that's discomforting,Cindy perhaps this podcast
episode sets into motion the endof the world I'm not saying
(06:08):
it's going to or perhaps itbrings about a utopian society.
We could go either way.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
That's a lot of pressure to put on our little
podcast, Katie I know, just thisepisode, just this one episode,
just this episode.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Okay, well, this one episode, just this episode, just
this one.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Oh, okay, well, bottoms up.
I guess we should say I have adrink in my hand, not the other
guy's.
Bottoms up, put that away.
Katie, put that away.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
If you want to see more, go on to our OnlyFans.
No no, we don't.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
No, but what's funny is we only have like three fans,
one of whom is still not mymother, katie and I are so old
that when we say OnlyFans we'rereferring to like our OnlyFans,
onlyfans we're referring to ourOnlyFans.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
So I went a little bit crazy with my topic.
So, Cindy, how much do you knowabout Anne Boleyn?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I've seen a few movies.
I've watched a few YouTubevideos on her few movies.
I've watched a few youtubevideos on her.
Uh, I know she lost her head,but I also know that she was
quite.
She was very smart, yes, kindof sassy, kind of I don't know
just kind of a cool, a coolchick until she lost her head.
(07:40):
And even then, even even then,she's still was.
She's been cool in history too.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yes, and I don't want to undercut like her coolness
factor, that's kind of out thereby historians, but I, you know
she's really been portrayed aslike this scheming seductress,
that she's this likemanipulative woman who just like
beguiled Henry VIII, and I meanshe pretty much she's the
reason why we have the Church ofEngland and why the England
(08:10):
broke with the Catholic Church.
So that's a not insignificantrole to play in the history of
the world.
But if you do a little bit of adeeper dive, you know
historians are starting to kindof view her in a very different
light, like she's actually.
She is a woman who is veryintelligent, but her life is
(08:31):
actually really tragic.
And I don't want to turn thisinto like a poor little rich
girl story, but I feel likethere were a lot of things at
play that kind of forced herinto this role, this like very
prominent role in history, herinto this role, this like very
prominent role in history, and Icould say she kind of made the
best of it.
But a lot of things, terriblethings, happened to her to get
(08:51):
her to where she was and I I dofeel a lot, I feel like very
sorry for her, I mean aside fromlosing her head, but all the
other, everything else Inaddition to that, everything
else In addition to that, inaddition to that.
So my story is going to betaking, like I said, a little
closer look at at Anne Boleyn.
(09:12):
Maybe history should be alittle bit more forgiving of her
and a little bit moreunderstanding of her and not
necessarily view her as this,like femme fatale in, like a
ruffle collar.
Anne Boleyn was born around1501.
Historians are in a little bitof disagreement.
(09:32):
It's either like 1501 or 1507.
I feel like that's a really bigrange.
They lean a little bit moretowards 1501.
At Bickling Hall in Norfolk,england.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I just have to say too in my, in my biography if
people would like to leantowards like seven years after I
was actually born too, thatwould be okay with me.
Which?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
but.
But then it's gonna skeweverything backwards and your
husband's going to look like oh,kind of creepy, yeah, maybe
well, let's just skew everythingback seven years.
Well no, because then it's alljust proportionate.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
That's weird.
Okay, forget, I said anything.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
She was born in Bickling Hall in Norfolk,
england, into a noble family,though one not of the very
highest ranks.
Anne was described as herfather as being quote the
happiest of his children, whichis interesting because she was
the middle child.
That does not exist, butunfortunately her mother died
(10:33):
when she was still very young.
The Bolins were ambitious froma young age and was groomed for
a life at court.
She spent the majority of heryouth in what is now modern-day
Belgium and then later in Frenchcourt, an experience that would
actually shape her in verysignificant ways.
So in France she obviouslylearned how to speak French,
which at the time was like thelanguage of nobility, not
(10:53):
necessarily just Latin and Greek, although others were
instructed in that language, butFrench was really what the
upper crust spoke.
And she also refined hereducation in literature and
music and in dance.
So Anne's education and notjust formal education but also
(11:13):
her education in like the finerthings in life and and French
fashion and music it gave herthis unique presence that when
she returned to England shereally kind of like when she
when she could walk into a roomand light it up, essentially,
which I feel is like what theysay at every Dateline and NBC.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
That's exactly what I was going to say too.
We smiled at the room.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
She's described as being very witty, very
well-spoken and just overallvery magnetic personality spoken
and just overall very magneticpersonality.
And it is also really importantto understand that Anne was not
necessarily considered likeconventional beauty of the time
but that like her allure camefrom that, that inner radiance
that she just kind of exuded.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
That's what people say about me too.
They're like we like her forher personality, but you said it
a lot in a much nicer way.
She's got a great personality.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
She's really got good morals, nice.
So Anne eventually did returnto English court around 1521 in
order to marry James Butler, theson of Sir Pierce Butler, but
this was in order to settle aland dispute, not because she
actually loved him.
However, the marriage nevertook place and it was suggested
(12:35):
that this was influenced byCardinal Wolseley at the behest
of King Henry.
In 1522, she actually joinedthe household of Queen Catherine
of Aragorn, henry VIII's firstwife, and at this time Anne
really didn't have any interestin Henry.
And by 1522, she was actuallyengaged to Henry Percy, who was
(12:58):
the son of a noble family and hewas in Colonel Wolseley's
retinue.
Everybody's kind ofintermarried and connected to
everybody.
So a lot of these names aregoing to pop up over and over
and over again.
Unfortunately, this relationshipagain was ended by the Cardinal
and under pressure.
We do have a lot of evidencethat Henry was definitely
(13:19):
involved, that she caught hiseye and he really wanted to put
the kibosh on this.
Anne was kind of banished toher home and have her castle,
and Henry Percy was forced tomarry another woman.
Anne was absolutely heartbrokenand her plans for marriage and
to have a peaceful andconventional life were destroyed
(13:39):
.
So, cindy, here's where we'regoing to have to pause for a
minute and just kind of consideranne's position.
So henry's the king and he'sgot immense power, and this is
at a time when royal authoritywas absolutely he could do
whatever he wants.
Throw you in a dungeon yeah,sure, why not?
if you want to go, uh over toireland and commit some
(14:02):
atrocities, why not?
I'm the king, I can do whateverI want.
And her own sister and hermarried name is Carrie.
Her first name is Mary, soshe's Mary Carrie.
She was one of Henry'smistresses and supposedly the
father of two of her children,and Henry had her as one of his
mistresses up until 1526, whenhe starts pursuing Anne.
(14:26):
And Anne is really faced withonly a couple of choices.
She can either reject the kingoutright, which is impossible
because he's not going to takeno for an answer, but if she
gives in to him and becomes hismistress, she could just be cast
aside when he loses interest inher as well, and she would be
ruined.
No man would want to take heron for a number of reasons, and
(14:50):
it would just be very difficult.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Can I stop you for a second here?
So why did Henry want to pursueher?
We know she lit up a room, litup a room, aka, she had a great
personality.
But why did he?
What was it about herspecifically?
I mean, he broke off anengagement for her, or he broke
(15:16):
off her engagement, like why?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
I think I think it was that just the draw of her.
I do think that she was thatengaging and I do also feel like
it's a little bit of a he wantswhat he can't have, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I'm the king I should be able to have whatever I want
.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And she was resistant to him.
In fact she, like in in 1526,1527, she goes into like a
self-imposed exile.
She leaves and goes to herfamily's estate to kind of get
away from the court and get awayfrom things.
And henry starts writing herlove letters.
(15:52):
But and we, which we still have, we don't have any of her
letters that survive from, fromand to henry.
They were destroyed.
After, after she was executed,he went on like a rampage and
the Romans would refer to it asdamnatio memoriae.
It literally means thedamnation of memory, where you
go out and you scrub everyexistence of that person off the
(16:14):
planet, essentially as if theynever really existed.
And so one of those things hejust like all of her letters
were destroyed.
I know that there's a number ofof places where, like, her
initials were like carved offthe sides of buildings and you
know, her monogram was destroyedso that literally no reference
to her ever existed.
And the letters that we have,they're really interesting in
(16:38):
what Henry has to write to herabout, when his love letters
really say to her, and they'reall written in French because,
again, at the time that's thelanguage of the courtly set,
it's the language of love.
So one of his letters he wrote,he sent her a deer and he sent
a letter that says- Wait, likeliterally a deer.
(17:00):
Yes, like a buck.
And he wrote you know, this isa buck killed late last night by
my own hand, hoping that whenyou eat of it you may think of
the hunter.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
So years ago when I was on Matchcom, I had several
men write me similar letters.
They never actually sent me abuck, but they were like, hey, I
can hunt you dinner and cook itfor you.
And I was like delete, swipe,delete.
So I don't know where Henrylearned his wooing skills, but
(17:40):
that would not work for me.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I mean, I feel like when you do the king, no one's
really going to criticize yourwooing skills.
They're like yes, sir, thatsounds like a great woo Woo Hoo,
go for it.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Woo, woo Hoo Hmm.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Oh, letter 15 is very .
I think you're going to lovethis.
Um Henry, writes he and this isa quote wishing myself
especially an evening in mysweetheart's arms.
Those pretty and I'm assumingthat the pronunciation is ducks,
it's D-U-K-K-Y-S duckies.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
I trust worthy to kiss.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Is that referring to what I think it's referring?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
to Cindy what do you think duckies are?
I think you know what I thinkduckies are, katie.
This is a family-friendly show.
They always come in pairs.
They always come in pairs.
Well, I shouldn't say thatSometimes they don't, but
typically Sometimes there's likefive.
Oh, wait, no.
Typically Sometimes there'slike five, wait, no.
(18:45):
Always in sex, five littleduckies.
What are you?
I feel like we're on twodifferent pages here right now.
Yes, cindy, we are.
Five little duckies went out oneday Over the hills and far away
(19:09):
, Cindy duckies are breasts Iknow they are Katie, but then
you said they don't always comein pairs and I thought you meant
ducks.
If you've had a mastectomy,okay, then can we just delete
from the record.
If you've had a mastectomy,okay, then can we just delete
from the record.
When I sang the song FiveLittle Ducks, ducks, ducks, duck
(19:41):
, duck goose, mammery ducks,aren't they called ducks?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Oh yes.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yes, it took us a little while to get there, but
we did.
Mammery ducks, I'm crying.
Oh Jesus Christ, we got there,katie.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
So he wanted to kiss the ducks and some might
consider these letters verysweet, a symbol of a man's
undying affection.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Can I just state for the record that I did not at any
point, yes, think that maybeit's the 21st century in me and
and I would agree because, ashistorian hayley nolan says, if
it can end in decapitation, itwas never love.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I second that If it can end in decapitation, it was
never love.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I second that.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
So by 1527, Henry was absolutely desperate to have
Anne as his queen.
But Anne had one little problemshe was already married.
She was already married.
Don't you hate when somethinglike a wife gets in the way of?
I hate that, I do.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
I do, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Anne's relationship with Henry became the center of
political and religiouswhirlwind as Henry sought an
annulment.
Henry's obsession with Annebecame so intense that he broke
with the Pope and the Catholicchurch entirely, leading to the
English reformation.
And you know, anne was,historians say, like she was
(21:33):
waiting and hoping for marriage.
Because she did not.
She was so religious and shewas so committed to her morals
that she didn't want to be thismistress.
She didn't want to be kind oftossed aside, she wanted to have
some kind of security.
And she had to endure years ofinsults and rumors and his
hostility, not just from withinthe court but outside the court.
(21:56):
And many of Catherine'ssupporters viewed her as this
usurper, a harlot who was tryingto destroy their beloved queen
and destabilize England.
And the public's hatred for Annebecame intense.
She was called the Great Whoreand all these rumors about her
were swirling.
They claimed that she was awitch and that she had beguiled
(22:18):
the king and she was just tryingto bring an end to their
society.
And her position was becomingmore and more dangerous.
She wasn't this power-hungrywoman who's bent on breaking up
a marriage, but she was justkind of caught up in the desires
of this king who she reallycouldn't refuse in any real way.
(22:40):
Henry had his sights set on herand there was very little that
she could do besides try and thebest way that she could to
maneuver security for herselfand any of her future children.
We do have some evidence thatthe toll was very hard on her
mental and physical health andshe had to wait for years, kind
(23:01):
of like in this limbo.
It wasn't until 1533 thatHenry's marriage to Catherine
was finally annulled and Annebecame queen.
There is some speculation thatshe and Henry had married in
secret the previous year, in1532, because by her coronation
in June 1533, she's visibly andheavily pregnant and there's a
(23:23):
lot of speculation that shewouldn't have consummated their
relationship until she was, inher eyes, actually married to
him.
And the pressure on Anne onlyintensified because, as we know,
catherine never provided Henrywith a male heir and the hope
(23:44):
was and expectation was thatAnne was going to give him that
desperately desired male heir.
And the hope was and theexpectation was that Anne was
going to give him thatdesperately desired male heir.
But her first child wasElizabeth and she was a huge
disappointment for Henry at thetime.
But she grew up to become oneof England's greatest monarchs.
So Anne's position was stillreally precarious.
So she had produced a child butnot a male heir.
(24:06):
Anne's position was stillreally precarious, so she had
produced a child but not a maleheir.
She still really had no strongallies in court.
The king's counselors were kindof eager to see her replaced,
especially after she gotpregnant very quickly again but
then suffered a miscarriage andHenry's affections really
started to shift after thatsecond miscarriage and he
started to get kind of flirtyand kind of touchy touchy with
(24:28):
gene seymour that name should bevery familiar, dr quinn went
medicine woman, yes, I mean theother one.
Yes, both of them wonderfulladies.
I'm sure um ann gets pregnantagain after this.
That second that um ann getspregnant again after this, that
(24:50):
second that Anne gets pregnantagain after that miscarriage,
and her hopes for remainingrelevant are kind of pinned on
this pregnancy.
However, in January January of1536, henry falls from his horse
and he's knocked unconsciousfor about two hours, just five
days after Henry's accident, andmiscarries her baby.
Historians kind of surmise thatafter Henry fell off the horse
(25:13):
he was unconscious.
He probably suffered somesignificant brain damage,
because afterward his behaviorstarts to become even more
erratic and extreme.
And by April so this is 3months after she's had a
miscarriage he starts aninvestigation into claims that
(25:33):
the queen is committing treasonagainst him behind his back.
So by 1536, henry finally findsa way to rid himself of Anne.
She gets arrested for adultery,incest and charges of high
treason, charges that todayhistorians are 100% sure were
(25:54):
just completely fabricated,particularly considering that
Anne, she was very deeplyreligious.
And at this time you know, eventhough you're the Queen of
England, you're going to havevery little privacy.
You're going to have, you know,your handmaidens, your
ladies-in-waiting, constantlyaround you.
You never really have any freetime to yourself.
So how could she arrange tohave one lover, let alone five,
(26:18):
that she's accused of havingaffairs with, including her own
brother?
And, like I said, there's noevidence to suggest that she was
ever unfaithful to Henry?
This is just a reallyconvenient way for him to try
and get rid of her and also someother political rivals.
So Anne is subjected to a shamtrial and despite her passionate
(26:41):
defense, which she maintains upuntil she's executed, she's
found guilty and sentenced todeath.
So even in her final days sheshowed remarkable composure.
We have letters from her jailerto others, kind of stating that
the most that she can beaccused of is just kind of
(27:02):
breaking down her final hoursand just accepting not
necessarily accepting her fate,but just the realization that
she's going to die and there'snot going to be like a last
minute save or she's not goingto get out of this in any way.
And so she was, I guess, justpraying and begging God to save
her.
But I guess, you know, she,like I said, she maintained her
(27:25):
innocence until the very, veryend.
On May 19th of 1536, anne wasexecuted by a French swordsman,
who was brought in at herrequest to procure her a quick
and painless death as opposed todeath by axe.
And she was only 35 years old.
11 days later, henry marriedJane Seymour.
(27:46):
Talk about a quick, quickrebound.
So even though I feel like, eventhough Anne's story is it is
tragic, I feel like we shouldkind of remember with more
sympathy rather than scorn andkind of say well, you know, she
got what she deserved.
She broke up a marriage and shewas a seductress.
You know, she was just more oflike a victim of herress.
(28:07):
You know she was just more oflike a victim of her time.
You know she didn't really havea lot of choices and when it
seemed like she was going tohave her happy ending, I feel
like a lot of things were kindof taken away from her by, you
know, by essentially one man whowanted what he wanted.
He didn't really care about her, her life or what, what, what
she wanted, but in the end Ifeel like Anne kind of got her
her life or what she wanted.
(28:27):
But in the end I feel like Annekind of got her revenge and her
comeuppance because her daughterended up becoming one of the
most powerful women in the world, even though she really didn't
know her mother.
I mean, she was only what threewhen her mother died, and
that's like the other crazything.
You know, henry went throughall this work to you know.
Get an annulment from Catherine.
Only for three years later.
Get an annulment from Catherineonly for three years later.
(28:48):
Get an annulment from Anne andhave her executed.
You know, I feel like that.
All that work, all that strifeand struggle and tearing apart
your country for for what?
For what reason?
So I, just I, I feel likehistory should be a little bit
kinder to Anne Bolin, I feellike history should be a little
bit kinder.
To Anne Bolin Hear, hear, katie,so did you read anything that
(29:20):
kind of gives us a glimpse intohow Anne felt about Henry,
because there's so little that'ssaved of hers Like there's not
like a lot of letters saved ofhers Like there's there's not
like a lot of letters and, um,at that time women were really
supposed to, you know,essentially stand by your man
and support your husband, evenwhen things are going wrong.
And, um, because your behaviorand how you speak of your
husband is a reflection of him.
(29:41):
And so, from what I've read andwhat I've I've seen, she was
never really critical of him.
It was more you know, we're allin this together, we're all,
you know, like you're in aunited front.
Um, I support him because he'sthe king and he's, you know,
appointed by god and so whateverhe says, kind of goes so do you
(30:04):
think it's more, um, so like?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
here you know, henry comes along and he breaks off
her engagement with somebodyelse.
Um, do you think that she wasjust kind of like, okay, well,
let me turn my attention now tohenry, because he's interested,
and that's what I'm supposed todo.
I'm supposed to stand by my manRather than like.
Did she?
Did she carry some kind ofresentment towards him this
(30:30):
entire time that she just kindof had to work past?
Or I'm just wondering howcomplicated were her feelings
about him?
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I imagine very complicated, and you bring up a
very good point, you know, andyou bring up a very good point,
you know, did she know?
I mean, on some level she musthave known that he was the one
to break up her engagement.
You know, on some did she?
(31:01):
She must have that's a reallygood question.
She must have, Because ifCardinal Woolsey is saying it
and he doesn't have a goodreason to break up their
engagement, the only other thinghas to be Henry.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
It's the kind of thing.
Can we stand here 500 yearslater and say, oh, surely she
knows, or she must have knownwhat was happening, but maybe
she didn't, I don't know.
I just feel like, how do youeven if you stay quiet about it
throughout your entire marriageto the king how do you not carry
(31:39):
some kind of resentment,especially towards the end,
where you're just like man, likelooking?
Back on my life and all thethings that happened.
This guy's a real jerk Like.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I should have just fled to France when I had the
chance.
Exactly, damn it.
And and we, you know when wethink or at least a very
simplified view I think, that wehave of of monarchy and
aristocracy is oh, they have avery easy life, they have a
charmed life, they can make,they can do whatever they want.
(32:12):
They can, and to some extent.
But she really didn't.
There weren't.
You know, she was at the, youknow, at the control of her of,
excuse me, she was really, youknow, at the mercy of her father
and then at the mercy of theking and kind of had to do
whatever they said.
You know, she wasn't reallyleft with as many choices as we
(32:33):
really think she had availableto her, you know, I know, and
jokingly we say, oh, she justcould have fled to france, but
that's not really a viableoption for her at this time you
know, it's really sad.
It's like how many choices, howmany choices that we make are
truly our own.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
I feel like it's a little too heavy for the day
before yes, but I mean, I think,and then I think there's all of
that and then, plus, theoverarching theme that you you
already mentioned, is that theentire country of england was at
(33:10):
the mercy of this guy and theperson that he had a, he had a
crush on like literally thewhole country could have
crumbled, yeah, could havecrumbled to its knees, because
he had a crush on somebody.
And he's like I'm the kind ofguy who gets what I want, if, if
I want it, I'm going to get it,just like wow, you really put
that into perspective.
Like that's crazy, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's absolutely bananas.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
So, katie, let's play a little word association game.
Shall we Okay?
Yes, I say Rome, you say Caesar.
Carthage.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Salt their fields, so nothing may grow for a thousand
years.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Elephants.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Hannibal.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Hannibal.
Yes, so, as you know, katie, asI know you well know this
Carthage and Rome were at battlewith each other for a long time
.
Yes, in fact, they were inbattle with each other between
264 to 146 BCE.
There were three wars betweenthem during this time, known as
(34:27):
the Punic Wars.
Thank you, you're welcome.
The Roman Empire and Carthagewho can I just point out for
anyone who's not Katie, who maynot know this, those were the
Phoenicians, and the funny thingabout Phoenicians is that, in
my mind, phoenicia, phoenicia,yeah, phoenicia came way before
(34:48):
Rome.
I honestly didn't really havean appreciation for how much
overlap that they had.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Oh, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yes, so you have the Roman Empire and you have
Carthage, who were thePhoenicians, and they were
battling each other for controlof various areas of the
Mediterranean.
Spoiler alert Rome won allthree Punic Wars but Carthage.
They put up a really impressivefight.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
Katie.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
They did.
Let's do a slow clap forCarthage.
Now, Katie, you know the nameHannibal Barca.
Does the name Hannibal Barcaoverwhelm you with feelings of
fear and reverence?
Speaker 2 (35:33):
I do respect him as a military leader.
He did a pretty good job.
But I mean, if I saw himbearing down on me with
elephants, yes, yes, I'd be veryafraid.
With elephants, I'd, yes, yes,I'd be very afraid.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
It's a little easy to be on like one side of a
computer screen with amicrophone being like oh,
hannibal Barger, I don't knowwhat the big deal is, I could
take him in a.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
I could take him in a fight.
He's not that hard.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I could take him in an arm wrestle.
Well, the name should overwhelmyou with feelings of fear and
reverence, because this is howhe made Roman leaders feel for
years, even after the Punic Warswere over.
So Hannibal Barca was born inCarthage, which is now modern
day Tunisia, in 247 BCE.
The Carthage government hadbeen in decline for years, but
the tensions between Carthageand Rome had been growing.
In 241 BCE, the First Punic Warwas lost to Rome and, if you do
(36:30):
the math, this was around theexact same time that Hannibal
was growing up.
Hannibal's dad was a Carthagegeneral, and it was expected
that Hannibal would become ageneral as well.
He was given a strongintellectual education and he
was also taught advancedmilitary methods.
He was also infused with thishorrendous hatred of Rome from a
(36:53):
very young age.
I mean, everyone was just likeyou have to hate Rome.
This is what we do.
So at 26 years old, Hannibalwas made leader of the Carthage
military.
What were you doing at 26,Katie?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Oh God, I think I was working at Whole Foods.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
You weren't running a military, the Carthage military
, no, no.
So Hannibal was made leader ofthe Carthage military in 221 BCE
and while he was busy makingpreparations to seize power in
the Mediterranean, the Romanswere doing nothing about it.
So they were receiving likeallegedly they were receiving
(37:35):
warnings about Hannibal'spreparations, but they were like
meh, like what's up in Ileria,like let's think about anything
else but Hannibal.
So, for whatever reason, romejust didn't care about Hannibal.
So when he attacked the town ofSaguntum, remember Saguntimians
(37:55):
I think that's how you wouldpronounce it, I don't know.
Anyway, hannibal attacks thetown of Saguntum in 219, and
Rome still didn't do anythingabout it.
Now, saguntum was a verywell-fortified city and it took
(38:16):
months, but Hannibal's troopsfinally defeated Saguntum.
Now, during this time, saguntumhad contacted Rome for help,
but Rome didn't send any help.
So after Hannibal defeated thecity, he offered to spare the
people of Saguntum on conditionthat they were quote willing to
(38:36):
depart from Saguntum unarmed,each with two garments, which is
very specific.
That's very nice.
What two garments would youtake, katie?
Somebody said you can only taketwo garments only two socks,
that's not even count, it's onegarment are they a pair?
You only get one you only gettwo socks, that's it.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
You can get two socks , it's one, it's one garment
well, I mean not not to be, notto be a w downer or like a buzz
kill or joy kill, but with theromans you really only needed to
.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
You could have your tunic and then your toga, and
then you're good so basicallywhat he said, what he meant was
you can bring your toga and yourtunic like you have a whole
outfit and you're good.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
even if you were a female, well, you would wear
like a pala, which is like areally long dress that would be
attached by brooches, and thenyou could also have like a scarf
or like a whole, essentiallylike head-to-toe covering.
It's like a robe where you cancover yourself up.
So you'd be good.
You'd be good.
(39:43):
It's essentially, it would belike being able to take one
dress and like a coat.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
So, like that wasn't unreasonable for him to say just
two things, right, okay, well,that was very nice then.
Well, I mean, the people ofSaguntum said no thanks to this
and they began to sabotage thetown's wealth and possessions.
So Hannibal had every singleadult in Saguntum killed, and
then, and only then, was Romelike let's do this, I suppose,
(40:18):
and the Second Punic War began.
So once again, rome andCarthage were at war.
Hannibal was like okay, this isit, we're just going to cut to
the chase and head to Rome andmake the Romans defend their own
territory, and the fastest wayto do this is to cross over the
Alps, and we're going to do itwith elephants.
(40:41):
Now, this is the part of thestory where people hearing this
story for the first time arelike wait, wait, wait.
Where did these elephants justcome from?
Like you just completely threwme a.
This is the part of the storywhere people hearing this story
for the first time are like wait, wait, wait, where, where did
these elephants just come from?
Like you just completely threwme a curve ball.
What's the deal with theelephants?
And who in their right mindwould cross the Alps with
elephants?
And congratulations, this isexactly the reaction Hannibal
was going for, but there was alittle bit more to it than that.
(41:05):
So if the elephants seemedrandom, then you should know
that war elephants were anintegral part of armies during
this time period.
Carthage used war elephants andeven the romans used uh
elephants, although they usedthem less as soldiers and more
as pack animals.
On the battlefield, elephantswould often be stationed on the
(41:28):
wings to keep the infantry frombeing flanked, or they would be
put in line in front of theinfantry.
So can you imagine Katie beingon foot on the opposing side and
having a herd of elephantscharge at you?
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Oh, I'd be scared, scared, poopy, less, like I
would just be scared duckless.
All my ducks would just myducks would just pop right, my
duckies would just pop right offso ran off one day when they
saw a big ass elephant comingover the Alps.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
So elephants were also particularly useful against
Calvary, since horses wereterrified by their size, smell
and sound.
Now, as a Ulysses S Grant horsegirl, I can tell you that
horses are terrified of likeplastic bags that blow by.
So they did not do too wellagainst these elephants that
(42:30):
blow by.
So they did not do too wellagainst these elephants.
But now this might surprise you, but there are a lot of
problems too with havingelephants in your army, other
than the fact that elephants arehuge and they eat a ton and
they cost a lot of money.
Elephants have a tendency topanic when they are injured, and
what would happen is if thesewar elephants were injured
during battle, they would oftenturn around and stomp on their
(42:53):
own troops.
Now, apparently this happenedquite often, so much so that the
Romans actually referred toelephants as the common enemy.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
The enemy of my enemy is an elephant.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
So Carthage began training elephant troops in the
first decades of the thirdcentury BCE.
By the time the first Punic Warbegan in 264 BCE, they had
accumulated quite the number oftrained elephants.
Now I should also mention thatthese elephants most likely
belonged to a now extinctsubspecies of African forest
(43:26):
elephant.
They were quite a bit smallerthan african forest elephants.
They were only about eight feettall and weighed around three
tons, which still is that's hugeto me, but it's like a travel
size elephant, I guess it's a.
It's like a reasonable size foran elephant right, and they were
also highly trainable.
(43:47):
Now, carthage used elephants alot during the First Punic War
and the results were they weremixed.
During the Battle of Agrigentumin 262 BCE, the Romans killed
or injured 50 to 60 elephants,but during the Battle of Bagdras
River, approximately 100elephants devastated the front
(44:10):
ranks of the Roman Legion andtrampled many other Roman
soldiers.
So you know it's a mixed bagwhen you work with war elephants
.
I'm sorry, cindy, I can think.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Mama tell me how Daddy Dad got trampled by an
elephant.
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Like a hundred elephants, that's so many
elephants.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Like a hundred elephants.
That's so many elephants.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Like a hundred elephants.
It's a lot of elephants.
So, yeah, it's also worthnoting that Hannibal's own
father, Hamilcar Barca, was verysuccessful at using elephants
to conquer territory in Spain.
Hannibal later used the sameelephant herd in Spain to
conquer a coalition of tribes in220 BCE.
(44:54):
My point being, Katie, thatusing elephants to attack Rome
wasn't just a random idea.
Hannibal had one day.
Elephants had been used foryears and Hannibal had seen
firsthand just how effectiveelephants could be when they
were used against troops who hadnever seen them before.
So Hannibal had this plan.
(45:15):
He's like let's go to Italythrough the Alps with men and
horses and elephants.
I feel like I should also addthat he could not move his
forces by sea as he did not haveenough allied ports to
successfully go that route.
So it's not like he had a lotof choices.
Going over the Alps with horsesand elephants was like
(45:38):
basically his only choice.
So even though that was hisonly choice, it still wasn't a
very easy plan.
Katie, have you ever gonehiking in the snow?
Yes, it's awful, Right.
Yes, Now try hiking in the snowwith 70,000 men, 20,000 horses
(46:01):
and 37 elephants.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
I would still pick it over going hiking in the winter
with two small children any dayof the week.
Much more manageable.
Speaker 1 (46:15):
But this was the brilliance of Hannibal's plan.
No one figured he would do this.
Because it's so insane, right,yes, it's insane, like I
wouldn't do this.
Well, you said you might dothat over going hiking with
children, but still like, reallywho's going to do this?
You said you might do that overgoing to the children, but
still like, really, who's goingto do this?
This was a plan that was sodangerous that it easily could
(46:38):
have become one of history'sgreatest military disasters, but
nonetheless, hannibal marchedhis troops to the Alps in
October of 218 BCE.
They were approaching winter,so the weather was cold and it
was harsh.
And I haven't been to phoeniciaI know it doesn't exist anymore
(46:59):
, but my guess is that they'renot really dressed appropriately
for the cold weather.
I guess they did put likespikes on the bottom of their
sandals to help them on the ice,but they're still wearing
sandals.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
If it makes you feel better, they would wear.
In general, the Romans wouldwear socks with sandals or boots
.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
And why do people judge me when I do that?
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Because you're not a second century infantryman.
That's why I see, if you didthe whole outfit, then they'd be
like, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Oh, I see what she's doing here.
If I'm wearing Birkenstocks,does that also make a difference
?
Speaker 2 (47:46):
You know, I think I feel like it depends on the sock
, like if it's a fun sock, youcan get away with it, more than
if it's just like your typicalwhite tube sock like if it's a
toe sock with the individualtoes I think you might get away
with that.
Speaker 1 (48:00):
I saw the face you made when I said toe socks
though katie it was, I feel likeyou're not a fan.
I'm not not a fan of the toesocks.
Speaker 2 (48:08):
I think it's because I think about trying to wedge my
toes into those socks and it'sjust like sensory hell for me,
yeah.
I can't do it.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
So Hannibal's marching his troops through the
Alps, they're surrounded bythese precipices.
And so I mean literally wedon't have pictures, we have
paintings and things.
And so I mean literally wedon't have pictures, we have
paintings and things, but like Imean according to accounts, you
know, any mistakes, andmovement meant animals going off
the sides with their loads.
(48:38):
And this happened like people,like animals went off the sides
with their loads they werecarrying.
They were also attacked on theway by some tribes.
They always managed to fightthem off, um, but still they had
to constantly deal with that.
They also.
They also did deter otherattacks from other tribes just
with the presence of theirelephants.
(48:59):
So, like some, some tribesattacked them and some tribes
were like we don't know whatthose things are, we're not
going near them so again, mixedbag of results.
Hannibal also allegedly came upwith a way to cut through all of
the snow and ice using wine andfire.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
But I caution you, this may be a myth I love it,
though that's how I saw solveall of my personal problems.
Wine and fire one or the otherWine and fire.
Speaker 1 (49:33):
So, regardless, they made it to the top of the pass
in only nine days.
Which props to them.
That is so impressive.
The men and the animals wereexhausted, so Hannibal
encouraged them by saying thisis it you guys?
It's all downhill from here, nomore hills to climb.
But remember what I said, katie, about hiking in the snow.
(49:53):
Have you ever hiked downhill inthe snow?
Much worse, it's like athousand times worse.
Men and animals were slippingand sliding everywhere.
We're talking men, horses,elephants slipping and sliding
and crashing into each other.
On top of that, they were allfreezing and starving and
(50:15):
exhausted.
I don't know the numbers.
A lot of men and horses died.
It's unclear how many elephantsdied, but it sounds like at
least 30 elephants actuallysurvived.
Uh, which is good, for that'smuch better than I would have
yeah, but I'm also thinking,okay, elephant, horse, man,
(50:40):
right, like if they're allsliding, like chances are, it's
like a boulder coming down, yeah, yeah, I feel like the boulder
stands a better chance ofsurviving.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (50:50):
True, when you frame it that way.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
So not only did Hannibal manage to march his
army across the Alps, they madethe journey in just 16 days.
That's really impressive.
So shortly after descendinginto Northern Italy, they fought
their first major battle withthe Roman army at Trebia.
Here Hannibal used hiselephants in a successful charge
alongside the cavalry againstthe Roman wings.
(51:16):
But unfortunately, this was thelast hurrah for Hannibal's
elephants.
All but one eventually diedfrom the snow and cold of winter
in northern Italy.
Eventually died from the snowand cold of winter in northern
Italy.
The one elephant who survivedwas nicknamed the Syrian, which
is a very specific name why?
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Why are they called the?
Speaker 1 (51:38):
Syrian.
I mean, I don't know if it waslike a compliment, like for
being strong and being the onlysurvivor, or if it was like an
insult.
It might have been an insidejoke.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Those Carthaginian inside jokes.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
You had to be there, cindy, you had to be there.
You had to be there.
But anyway, the Syrian becameHannibal's personal elephant
mount.
So ultimately, hannibal wasright.
Crossing the Alps was thequickest way to get into Italy
and using elephants wasn't aterrible idea.
(52:18):
He probably would havecontinued to use his elephants
if they hadn't, you know, alldied.
So I'm not going to end thestory there, katie, I couldn't
possibly end the story there.
I got to tell you how it ends.
So the Romans immediatelyfortify Rome.
Hannibal couldn't directlyattack Rome anymore, so he tried
(52:40):
to ask leaders in Carthage forhelp, but they were all
incompetent and useless anddidn't do anything to help him.
So Hannibal had to attack Romeanother way.
Do you know how he attacked theRomans another way?
Like a different animal, orlike coming around, used the
(53:06):
minds of the Roman people.
He basically talked shit aboutRome to everyone in communities
surrounding Rome, and this wasthe first time in recorded
history where somebody usedpsychological warfare.
This caused a lot of civilunrest and caused Hannibal to
(53:30):
gain a strong army.
So basically he went around andhe was like hey, did you hear
about Rome?
Like let me tell you all thethings that are bad about Rome
and people were like oh yeah,we'd love to join your military,
so he gains this really strongarmy.
And this completely terrifiedthe Romans again, as this kind
of emotional manipulation hadnever been used against them.
(53:52):
So on August 2nd 216 BCE, theRomans decided to engage
Hannibal at Cannae.
Speaker 2 (54:00):
Cannae.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
Cannae.
Oh, okay, let me do that againthe proper way.
On August 2nd 216 BCE, theRomans decided to engage
Hannibal at Cannae withapproximately 86,000 Roman and
allied troops.
Yet Hannibal basicallysurrounded the Romans with his
huge army and he slaughteredthem.
Hannibal wiped out 80% of theRoman army that day.
(54:24):
The Battle of Cannae isregarded as one of the worst
defeats in Roman history and oneof the most impressive tactical
defeats in military history.
So despite this victory, theSecond Punic War continued for
years and without support fromCarthage, hannibal was never
(54:44):
able to mount a direct attack onRome.
He was forced to surrender in202 BCE.
Hannibal returned home, but hekept pretty busy.
He ran for office in Carthageand then he eventually oversaw
the navy in Greece and laterBithynia, which is present-day
Turkey.
His last military stroke ofgenius was in 184 BCE, when
(55:08):
Bithynia found itself at warwith Pergamon in Greece.
Hannibal's fleet was reallybadly outnumbered by the
Pergamonians, I guess.
But given his love forunconventional tactics, hannibal
(55:29):
came up with a really badassplan.
Do you know what he did, katie?
What, tell me?
He ordered his ships to beloaded with clay pots full of
venomous snakes.
He then had those clay potscatapulted into the Pergamonian
ships.
The snakes not only bit sailors, but they caused, I think some
(55:53):
people were bit.
I think mostly it just caused alot of panic.
It just caused a lot of panicand confusion among the ranks,
which allowed the Bithynianfleet To directly target the
ship Carrying the leader ofPergamon.
And we don't know, there's nolike record of how it ended up.
(56:15):
But, as usual, hannibal left alasting impression and, in case
you're wondering, he died in aTurkish village at age 65.
Speaker 2 (56:25):
Good for him Couldn't even pull retirement, though I
know I know.
Speaker 1 (56:29):
I know, I know he just hung in a little bit longer
, but yeah, so that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Can I tell?
Let me ask you this Do you knowwhat the counter to elephants
is Like, what the Romans woulddo?
One of the strategies tocounter an elephant?
Speaker 1 (56:55):
Oh, like an actual, like an actual strategy to
counter elephants.
Peanuts, that's a good guess.
No, no, what would they?
Speaker 2 (57:04):
do so.
You take a pig.
I did not.
I already did not see thiscoming.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
You take a pig I did not, I already did not see this
coming.
You take a pig, you grease itup.
No, no, you set it on fire.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
No, you are making this up you set it towards the
elephants and make them allpanic and run and scream yes, no
, that's literally what they do.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yes, cindy, they actually had a strategy.
They had a specific strategy.
They're like this is ourprotocol, this is what we do.
If you see an elephant coming,you're going to grab a pig,
you're going to grease it up,light it on fire.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
They're incendiary war pigs, cindy, no, get out,
it's true.
Speaker 1 (57:58):
It's true, oh my god, you fight.
You know we say you fight firewith fire.
No, you fight elephants withincendiary war pigs.
Yes, get out.
Isn't that fantastic, oh my God.
So I have to say, you know, Ipicked this story because it was
(58:19):
just, I mean, it was just oneof thousands of crazy stories
about things in history, but Ihad no idea, like I.
Okay, when you guys go to thepolls tomorrow or any day,
whenever you read the news andyou're just like like this is,
this is, these are crazy timeswe live in.
(58:41):
When's the last time somebodycatapulted a pig on fire at you,
or a jar of snakes or a jar ofsnakes, because your ship was in
the way, like come on.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
I mean Cindy.
I feel like if a candidate saidyou know what we're gonna do,
we're gonna catapult a jar ofsnakes at all of our problems,
I'd be like you know what.
You have my vote.
People would be like it's ametaphor.
Katie and I are like you knowwhat you have my vote people
will be like it's a metaphor.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Kate and I are like no, that's real crazy times.
What a great time to be alive.
Speaker 2 (59:23):
Thank you.
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