#223- George Appling: A Journey into Work and Play | Renaissance Faire Owner Shares

This week, we have an amazing guest, George Appling. George is the owner of the Sherwood Forest Renaissance Faire in Texas, a vibrant and immersive festival that transports attendees back to the Renaissance era.

In this episode, we dive into:

• The fascinating world of Renaissance Festivals and their growing popularity across the country.

• George’s journey in creating the Sherwood Forest Renaissance Faire and what it takes to run such an elaborate event.

• The logistics behind organizing a Renaissance Festival, from the costumes to the characters to the intricate details that bring the past to life.

• His perspective on the Texas Renaissance Festival, featured in the documentary Ren Faire, and how it inspired a deeper look into this unique culture.

• The inspiration and process behind George’s recently published book, which explores achieving your dreams and balancing passion with practicality.

• Practical advice on pursuing your passions: whether to follow them now, later, or balance them alongside financial stability.

• Don’t miss this engaging conversation with George as we explore the magic of Renaissance Festivals and the lessons he’s learned along the way.

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George's Website: https://www.georgeappling.com/

Sherwood Forest Faire Website: https://www.sherwoodforestfaire.com/

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Link to all things Not in a Huff Podcast: https://linktr.ee/notinahuffpodcast

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
They take classes in blacksmithing and sword fighting and leather working and

(00:04):
painting glass and pottery and archery and horse riding and all these things.
You know, it's a, it's just an intensely positive experience.
Welcome to not in a half with Jackson Huff,
where we interview newsmakers storytellers and all around interesting people.
Sit back, relax, unless you're driving and enjoy the show.

(00:26):
Here's Jackson.
Hello, hello, hello.
I am Jackson Huff.
This is not enough.
Thanks so much for joining me as always.
Really appreciate it.
This week I speak with George Appling.
Now George runs a Renaissance festival.
Let me tell you why I decided I needed to speak with George.
Two things.
If you've listened to this podcast long enough, you know, I've had quite a few
performers on and a lot of those performers seem at some point to work at a

(00:51):
Renaissance festival.
You know, I had the Orleans on who does, uh,
whips and contortion and all that kind of stuff.
And she's worked at Renaissance festivals.
I've had magicians on who have worked at Renaissance festivals.
So definitely an interesting world.
And then I don't know, I think it was over the summer, a really interesting
documentary called Ren Faire came out, uh, on, I believe it was on Max and it was

(01:16):
all about the Texas Renaissance festival and the gentleman in his late eighties
who runs the festival and who, you just have to check it out.
It's a, it's a very interesting world for sure.
But it made me more and more interested in learning about the world of Renaissance
festivals and George Appling actually owns another Renaissance festival, the

(01:38):
Sherwood forest Renaissance fair.
And that is also in Texas, a little bit smaller than the Texas Renaissance
fair.
I think the Texas Renaissance fair is the biggest one in the world.
Um, but we're going to talk to George about just what it does.
To create a Renaissance festival.
Uh, Renaissance fairs are of course creating a world, um, of, uh, you know,

(02:01):
whether it's castles and Kings and Knights and jesters and all that kind of
stuff during the Renaissance time, they're, they're reenacting that he's
going to get into kind of what that means.
He's going to get into why it's so popular, why, uh, there's Renaissance
festivals all over the country.
He's going to talk about just what it took to create a Renaissance festival.
It took to create it himself.

(02:22):
Uh, he's going to talk about the logistics of all of it.
Uh, he's going to talk about a book that he's recently written to kind of teach
people how to, uh, I guess, achieve their dreams.
And, and it's an interesting take on, on what he, he, uh, says, you know, you
got to kind of figure out whether you want to, um, pursue your passions now

(02:44):
and make money later, make money now and pursue them later, make, uh, make money
while pursuing them, all kinds of different things.
Uh, I really think you're going to enjoy his, uh, you know, his conversation
when it comes to that, we're going to get into his Renaissance festival.
We're going to get into the documentary, um, that, uh, he, he wasn't in, but I had
to ask him about, uh, cause it was a wild documentary, urge you to check that out

(03:08):
too, uh, but yeah, you're going to really enjoy this one, check out his book.
We'll talk about that at the end of this podcast as well.
Uh, if it's your first time listening to this while you're listening, why don't
you go and, uh, follow or subscribe.
If you listen on Apple or Spotify, leave a written review on Apple.
That helps a ton.
Follow along on Facebook and Instagram and Tik Tok, all those places, not enough

(03:30):
podcasts, but without further ado here is George Appling.
George Appling, how are you?
I'm doing well, Jackson.
How are you?
I'm doing well as well.
Thanks.
Uh, thanks for joining me.
Just, uh, I guess I'm going to let you kind of do the heavy lifting
desk, introduce yourself.
Uh, so my name is George.
Um, I, uh, my career, if that's interesting, I said three phases.

(03:54):
Phase one was strategy consulting.
I was a partner at, um, McKinsey and company and then at Booze and company.
Phase two was cell phone distribution.
I was the chief operating officer of a company called Bright Star, which is
pretty big, about 5 billion in revenue.
And then I was a chairman and CEO of a, a different, uh, cell phone distribution
company with about a billion in revenue.
I've never sold that.

(04:15):
And in the last 15 years, I've been, uh, what I call a passion for newer.
So I've got eight companies, um, that I genuinely love.
And so I tell people I work all the time, but I never really work
because I love what I'm doing.
I love that.
And I want to kind of jump right into those, those passions.

(04:37):
Cause I know that in your book, which we're going to talk about in a little bit,
you talk about, you know, finding some of those joys in life.
And one of those things for you and the thing that kind of piqued my interest
when I saw, uh, it was something you did was, you know, Renaissance
fairs and medieval things.
And the reason for that is I've talked to a lot of people, you know, performers
in the past, um, you know, that have been on America's Got Talent and all this

(05:00):
stuff, and it seems like whether it's, uh, magicians, whether it was, um,
contortionist, all this kind of stuff.
Like they do a lot of Renaissance fairs.
And it's always interesting just to kind of hear a little bit about that world.
Uh, I guess let's start with how did you passion for, uh, I guess all things.
I want to say medieval, but is the Renaissance stuff, is that medieval?

(05:23):
Is that, are we in two different timeframes?
I don't want to, I don't want to upset somebody right off the gate.
No, you're exactly right that they're two different timeframes.
So the, the middle ages is sort of fall of the Roman empire to the, to the Renaissance.
So say 500 to 1400 and the Renaissance is say, you know, 1400 to 1600.
So in, in the U S pretty much every major city has a Renaissance festival.

(05:46):
And they tend to be in the, you know, what, uh, Queen Elizabeth the first or, uh,
King Henry the eighth, which is more 16th century.
Uh, my show is medieval.
So our setting is 12th century.
So we run in the 1190s England.
Uh, King Richard the Lionheart is the King, although he's usually not around.
He's on crusade or playing around in France, but you know, it feels pretty darn similar

(06:12):
to a Renaissance festival.
So yeah, right.
Like that's my, that's my core business.
That's number one, you know, no matter what else I'm doing.
Uh, Sherwood forest fair, it comes as number one from a business point of view.
Um, we have, how did I get into that?
So it's a good question.
When I was 36 years old, um, I had already, you know, I had a great career and, and done

(06:35):
well financially and seeing the world and learned a lot.
And I really liked what I was doing.
Um, but I would, you know, I wasn't passionate about it.
And so I put a note in my calendar on my Blackberry and this is back in the day where
people cared to black Blackberry and a holster on their belt.
And they thought they were cool because it was like a gunslinger thing, you know?
And I put the reminder in my calendar on my 40th birthday.

(06:57):
So 40 years hence that said an all capital letters stop.
And what that meant to me was I want to stop doing what the world expects me to
do.
And I want to do what I want to do.
I want to do something that I love.
And, um, I didn't know what that meant, but I gave myself four years to figure it out.
Well, it was only one year, uh, later when a friend of mine told me that the Texas

(07:19):
Renaissance Fussel was for sale.
And that's the big one.
Like they're all over the country, but it's the Superbowl.
It's outside of Houston, bigger than all the others by a long shot.
And I had been to that show for like 28 years in a row or something.
Uh, and in those years I had lived in Boston three years and Germany three years and

(07:39):
England a year, Russia a year, Australia a year.
And I'd always fly back to not mess up my streak.
And so that's when the clouds parted and the angels sang.
And I realized, well, that's it.
I want to be a Renaissance Fussel owner, uh, cause that's, that's the only thing I've
loved my whole life other than my mother.
You know, I went when I was 12 on a junior high field trip, yellow bus, the whole thing.

(08:01):
And I just, I completely hook line and sinker right off the bat.
So then I tried to buy that fair and that didn't work.
And then I tried to buy the one in Dallas and that didn't work.
And so then I co-founded Sherwood Forest Fair, which is outside of Austin.
We opened in 2010.
We just had our 15th season in 2024 and we entertained 167,000 patrons in 17 days.

(08:27):
So it's like 10,000 people a day.
It's, um, we're, we've grown up.
We're now a big show.
I think that's, that's awesome for sure.
And for people who just know nothing about, like I said, I've had guests on before.
So we've, we've touched on it a little bit, but just talk about what a, what a
Renaissance fair is exactly.
Sure.
So, I mean, it is a theme park, uh, and in some parts of the country, especially

(08:52):
like California and Florida, they're, we call them soft fairs.
They're, they're built up in public parks and they're like a bunch of tents and stuff.
But there's a whole bunch of them, uh, all over the country that are, they're
permanent facilities.
And so mine is one of those.
I've got 200 buildings, uh, that is, you know, creating this, this immersive

(09:13):
feeling of being with Robin Hood in the, in the woods and he keeps throwing this
big party.
And so people were building these little booths to sell things and stages to
entertain.
And so it's really an immersive, uh, physical environment.
And then what you see is, uh, there's these stage acts where we have full
contact jousting, meaning like competitive.
They're trying to knock each other off the horse.

(09:34):
It's kind of crazy, you know, falconry where the Falconer's flying the birds
over the crowd and their feathers might brush the top of your head and, um, you
know, juggling.
And, uh, we've got like 10 different bands a day playing old music.
Um, you know, comedy, lots of stage combat and theater.
So that's the entertainment side.
And then, uh, there's a huge, uh, artisanship angle.

(09:56):
We have 170 artisans selling things and almost all of them make their stuff.
So there's the boot maker and the glass blower and the hat maker and the wood
mug maker and the pewter mug maker and all sorts of jewelers and artists.
And so there's a, there's a, a beautiful kind of, uh, shopping element to it.

(10:17):
And then, you know, people drink mead, which they seem to not want to drink a
lot outside of medieval fairs, but they drink a lot of it at medieval fairs.
And they're eating turkey legs and just having a good time.
And, you know, I like to say I play dress up and swing swords at my friends for
a living.
So I'm pretty much always doing okay.
It's awesome.
And I've been to your website and you know, you have a whole section on me.

(10:40):
So do you, do you brew that outside of the fair too with, with, I guess you're
your brewer or is that just exclusively a fair thing?
Uh, it's not exclusive to the fair.
We do brew it's like seven miles down the road.
Um, and I think this, my, the brewer is my cousin Thorin, and I think they're
the number one meat company in Texas now.

(11:02):
And so he sells, um, at my show, which is in March and April, the niche, he
sells it, the big one, uh, Texas Renaissance Fussell, which is now, uh,
they're October, November.
He sells it some, some smaller Renaissance Fussells and he's in retail.
He's in, um, a bunch of, uh, supermarkets, um, the big one around here is called
HEB and then, uh, he's in like 300, uh, specs liquor stores, uh, which is just

(11:25):
kind of the, you know, every neighborhoods corner liquor stores in, in Texas
as specs S P E C S.
So yeah, it is a full-time year round meat making business.
So what's that you talked about how, you know, with this Renaissance fair, it's
not something that just built up and taken down every year.
You've got 200 buildings that are permanent.

(11:47):
What do you do with the buildings outside of those two months of a year?
That is a question I spent a lot of time on in 2010.
Uh, and I'll tell you where we landed in 2011, we launched a Celtic music festival.
So that is not time period specific.
It's geographic specific.

(12:08):
So we really focus on music from Ireland and Scotland, but from any time period.
And so, um, that show is in December now, and this will be our 14th one.
And so, you know, it's, uh, it's just a music festival and we've again, have
artisans and theater and, you know, we'll have like 25 bands and it's just one

(12:29):
weekend, but it's awesome.
And then that was, and then in 2012, we created Sherwood forest summer camp.
And so we've been doing that for 13 years and this past summer, we have four, one
week sessions, uh, and we have 542 kids across the four weeks.
I'll say things like 130 ish a week.

(12:49):
And so it's like a Robin Hood theme summer camp where they live there for a
week and they take classes and blacksmithing and sword fighting and
leatherworking and painting glass and pottery and archery and horse riding
and all that kind of stuff.
And then, you know, there's always a, a cool show at the end of each day and, uh,
swimming pool and you know, it's a, it's just an intensely positive experience

(13:14):
or over 500 kids in the summer.
And then also do a, a site run all that I'm pretty involved in called
high to fall H Y N a F O L.
And it's like this four day, uh, fully immersive LARP live action role play.
Where we just did, it was like two weeks ago, they had over 400 people that

(13:34):
were there the whole time and they're in character and they're in garb and
they're sleeping in tents and there's a story and it's like the empire versus
the rebels kind of thing.
And there's all these factions and there's alliances and betrayals and they
actually beat the crap out of each other with these sort of foam weapons that

(13:55):
they don't hurt.
Right.
So it's very safe.
Uh, yeah.
And they just have all these intrigues and arts and crafts and, and battles.
And, uh, it's a, it's a heck of a good time.
That sounds cool.
And I, and I want to, I want to get to, cause you, you've already mentioned
kind of the, the big dog on campus.
I want to get to that in a second, but my question to you is what makes, I

(14:18):
guess, Sherwood forest, what makes it unique?
Cause obviously you're dealing with, with a really, really, really, really
large Renaissance fair.
I think one of the biggest ones in the world, if not the biggest.
So what makes Sherwood forest unique?
Is it something like, Hey, go to this one as well, or are you actually competing
with, uh, I guess to get, uh, attendees?

(14:39):
Yeah, I don't view us as competitors and most of the fair owners don't.
We, we cooperate more than we compete.
Cause you know, the Texas Renaissance is really more for Houston and they're
in the fall season.
We're more for Austin and we're in the spring.
So yeah, I think we, we get along a lot more than we compete.
I'd say if you're, if you're not a Renaissance festival connoisseur, it's

(15:03):
going to feel pretty familiar to the one that you've already been to.
If you've already been to one.
If you are a Renaissance festival connoisseur, then you'll start to
see some differences.
For example, uh, Sherwood has overnight camping for patrons and very
few, uh, fairs have that.
And so on a Saturday night, we'll have 3000 people that are staying there.

(15:27):
And they're basically creating their own fair out there because we're closed,
right?
The show is closed, but they're still going all night.
Um, you know, I'd say our full contact jousting is differentiated from
theatrical jousting.
And I think the theatrical jousters do a great job, but I really like the
competitive jousting.

(15:50):
It's kind of like NASCAR.
You're just kind of waiting for the smash.
Uh, and it, and it happens and it's quite a sight to see.
Um, you know, I think our theater is differentiated.
We've got more actors with a weapon certificate from the Society of American
Fight Directors than any other fair.

(16:11):
It's actually not even close.
We're like double second place.
So we take stage combat very, very seriously, and that's kind of fun to
watch.
We also do a show in the theater side called the Castle Siege, where we
siege a castle.
And I mean, there's like 50, 60 actors in this show and we might have
flaming arrows.
We might have war horses.
We might have battering rams.

(16:32):
We might have a fireball coming out of the Barbican.
It's a big, ambitious, uh, theater show.
And we've done that now for 10 years.
The other thing I'd say that makes us different than other fairs is
we don't run the food ourselves.
We have like a dozen independent companies that run the food and it's
kind of this letting a thousand flowers bloom, but it's letting 12 flowers

(16:54):
bloom.
Uh, and they're really innovative.
And so the, the, the food at Sherwood Forest Fair is really extraordinary.
Now I just told you what I thought was great.
I'm going to piss off all the people who I didn't just say what they're
doing, but okay.
No, and it sounds like it's, and you don't have to have to say it or agree,
but to me from the outside, it sounds like you're talking about how you've

(17:16):
got all these people that are, are, you know, have the certifications with
weaponry.
You, you do the actual jousting, you do these flaming arrows in the sieges,
maybe people who are very big in the historical aspect and not just the
entertainment aspect that want things like exactly historically accurate.
It sounds like they have a good place to be.

(17:37):
Accurate. It sounds like they have a good place at, uh, at your fair.
I think that's right.
So one of our core values as a company is, is authenticity.
And so we do take our time period more seriously than most, uh, fairs.
Uh, you know, that being said, we've got flushing toilets and the, the bud light

(17:59):
comes in 16 ounce plastic cups, cause that kind of has to happen, but we do
take our, our history very, very seriously or relatively seriously.
For example, the, the setting of the show, uh, moves year by year from 1189
to 1199, uh, year by year and then it resets.

(18:21):
And those are the years of, uh, King Richard the Lionheart being the King of
England.
So we're now in, um, 1192, the second time.
And then this coming season, 2025, it'll be 1193, the second time.
And the theater story that we tell over the course of the day, we'll have like
six 15 minute skits and each skit is a story in and of itself that you can

(18:45):
enjoy, but you can also watch all six of them.
And it tells one big overarching story that ends with the siege.
Um, major elements of that storyline are rooted in the year of the setting.
So major elements of the storyline next year, 1193,
will be around, uh, King Richard is held captive by the Holy Roman Emperor in

(19:05):
Germany and his mother, Queen Eleanor is trying to raise 150,000 silver pieces to
pay his ransom.
And so that topic has engulfed the kingdom.
And so that's what our theater troupe, which is 200 strong, uh, that's the
story we're telling.
No, that's, that's really awesome.
You talked about how King Richard the Lionheart, uh, was the king of

(19:30):
the kingdom.
Is a way on crusades most of the time during your, your, uh, festival.
So what's, what's your role in it?
Obviously it'd be easy for you to, to be the king.
What, what do you do while you're there?
So, yeah, I mean, there's a big difference between what I do when I'm
there and when I'm not there.
Um, so when I'm there, uh, I'm the co-captain of the dance troupe.

(19:51):
We have a courtly dancing, uh, crew.
Uh, I am the ho deputy fight director.
So I'm deep in the stage combat.
I don't know what you can see behind me that all those certificates are
stage combat certifications.
Um, I've got all eight weapons that the society of American fight
director certifies actors in.

(20:12):
And then I play a character and the characters changes.
I have played King Richard when he was around.
I've played the archbishop of York.
I've played Georgia green, a merry man.
Uh, who joins Robin Hood, you know, so I, uh, I typically play the character
who has a reason to get into a fight.
I like it.

(20:32):
And let's kind of talk about the, the big one, the Texas Renaissance
fair.
And the only reason I want to mention that is just because that's kind of
why it piqued my interest.
Have you seen the, the documentary that came out on Mac's not that
long ago, Ren fair?
I did.
I watched all three episodes.
Yeah, I've seen it and all my friends have seen it.

(20:52):
All my friends talk about it a lot.
And so I, I know nothing about, you know, I know nothing about very much of it,
but you're just down the road.
What do you, what do you say about the documentary?
I, whether, you know, because I talk to people when it's been in documentaries
all the time, you know, and some are very factual.
Some of them are not, if this one's factual, then it is, uh, it's, it's

(21:14):
quite the, uh, quite the show.
That's all I'll say.
Yeah.
So, uh, I would say it is authentic.
Uh, so I know all those guys, right?
I know King George and Jeff Baldwin and Louie and yeah, uh, none of those guys are
people who are going to let words be put into their mouths.
And yeah, I, I think they said what they said and they are who they are.

(21:37):
And you know, I think it was true to life.
Um, so that's what, you know, I think people ask me that is it, do I think
this is make believe, or do I think this is authentic?
I think it was authentic.
And I do, I know all those guys.
Um, you know, that, and the criticism that I hear, which I get is it wasn't
really about the fair, you know, it was just about the kind of ownership

(21:59):
transition and the, the game of Thrones aspect.
And I found it entertaining, but I'm a connoisseur of this kind of stuff.
Of course I found it entertaining.
And a lot of people in the business kind of wish there was more of a show
about the show because the show is awesome.
Like these guys, they entertain half a million people in 17 days.
Right.

(22:20):
They're really onto something.
And this is, this is their 50th year.
And last Saturday they had 50,000 people in one day.
Like that's worth talking about.
Yeah.
And I, I, I agree.
Uh, that's, that's what the, it made me hard.
It made it hard for me to understand, I guess, given how crazy everything

(22:41):
wasn't in the show and just kind of, uh, you know, the game of Thrones aspect.
It made me think, I'm surprised all these people are able to be
able to put on this show, but obviously they do a really, really good job.
So that was, I don't know whether it's kind of just a lot of really hard
workers that just kind of patch over some of the craziness at the top or what,

(23:02):
but it was hard for me to really grasp how they put on a good show.
Well, when you're entertaining, you know, 20 to 50,000 people in a day.
And I mean, that's where they are now.
They've been doing this for 50 years.
It's a, it's a well-oiled machine.
Right.
You know, there can be drama about who's going to own the place next, but

(23:22):
these guys know what they're doing.
Like they really know what they're doing.
And do you, I mean, the whole thing at the end of this show, I guess,
it's the last question I have about it is obviously the whole thing is he's
going to King George is going to be selling this thing every year.
And I think he's been wanting to sell it for like 10 years and then he decides
not to you.
Do you think he's ever actually going to sell it or do you think it's going to be

(23:44):
once he, he passes on the show or the show gets passed on?
Yeah.
I, you got to add some years.
I talked to him about buying that show and before I co-founded mine.
So I talked to him in like 2007, 2008.
Right.
So it's been like 16, 17 years.
And I think he had, yeah.

(24:04):
So, you know, it's, it's been a long time that he's been, you know, saying
he would sell it.
You know, I'll try to, I'll answer that question and I'll tie in the
last question on authenticity.
If anything was staged in my opinion, and I have not talked to them about
anything being staged.
So this is just my opinion.
If anything was staged, it was the, the opening line of a King without a

(24:31):
kingdom is free.
And the closing line was a King without a kingdom is nothing.
Like there's no way he came to that realization 15 years later, you know, I
think, I think he has felt on the end, I'm making this up, but I think he's
felt on the inside that a King without a kingdom is nothing.
He's felt that way for many years, which is why he's never actually sold

(24:53):
the business.
So, no, I find it hard to believe that he will hand over the keys.
I also think, you know, he could put it into a trust that has a board of
trustees and, you know, a remit to keep it alive and to kick in when he dies.
You know, that wouldn't surprise me at all.
If he does something like that, that's kind of what I'm going to do.

(25:15):
Yeah.
So I guess in getting back to your own show, do you feel like, you know,
cause it did, it did create some, some interest in Renaissance Fairs.
I listened to other podcasts that were, you know, that were, you know,
the people talking about, you know, just love that love documentaries.
They never even really heard of Renaissance Fairs, never been to one,

(25:36):
but they were enthralled by this documentary.
So, you know, I talked to a lot of people when it comes to, you know,
true crime shows and, um, ghost shows.
And we always talk about whether, you know, the media attention, do you
think it has helped or hurt?
I guess the Renaissance Fair world as a whole, do you think it's helping

(25:56):
bring more eyes to it or making it less, uh, I guess, less believable or,
or more seem like more of like, uh, I guess a shit show from a better, better.
Can't think of anything better.
I think that question would have been hard to answer four months ago.
I think it's easy to answer now.

(26:17):
It helped, right?
They are Texas Renaissance Fessels having record numbers every week.
The attendance goes out on social media and they compare it to last year and
they're up, right?
So bottom line, their attendance is up.
The other thing I'm noticing is, um, uh, next door is the Louisiana
Renaissance Fessel, which has also been around like 25 years.

(26:41):
And I think last weekend and this coming weekend when I'm going, they've
sold out, like they've stopped selling tickets and posted everywhere.
Hey, guys were sold out.
And I think that was happening in that happened in Bristol, which is
the Chicago Milwaukee show.
So I think Renaissance Fessels are having a very good year.
I had a record year, although that was before the documentary.

(27:03):
So I think there's no way it hurt because they're knocking down record numbers.
That's good to hear as long as it, it transcends just them and it sounds like
it is.
So I'm glad to hear that for sure.
It's kind of wrap up the world of, of, uh, you know, Renaissance Fairs,
um, by talking about, I guess, money, because that's kind of what we're going

(27:24):
to talk about when it comes to your book, just being successful.
And it does take a lot of, of money, obviously to run a Renaissance Fair, but
it takes a lot of money to be involved too.
That's something that, you know, when I've got into these niche things,
when I've talked to people, whether they're cosplayers or really big into,
you know, a lot of different things, cosplay is a huge thing.

(27:45):
And I think Renaissance obviously is, is part of that, but it's a huge thing.
And I think it's a big part of that, but it's expensive.
These buying the costumes, buying the swords, getting probably all those
certificates.
There's a lot of money there for sure.
Talk a little bit about that.
Well, it depends on the, the point of view you're coming from.
Is it, you know, like from, um, there's an owner's point of view, there's

(28:08):
stage acts point of view, there's artisans point of view, and there's the
patron's point of view.
It sounds like, you know, you know, buying garb and swords, it's the
same thing, but it's a little bit more expensive.
And the truth is you can spend as little or as much as you want when you go to
the fair.
So the ticket, which is often like, you know, 30 bucks, say, uh, you get in

(28:30):
and all of the stage acts are free or there's no incremental costs.
You can watch the Jowls, you can watch the Falconer and the watching well
wenches and all these guys.
And you don't have to tip them.
You can, if you want, and they might ask you for tips.
They often do, but you don't have to.
And I've got like 40 or 50 different stage acts every day.
And so you can spend the whole day watching stage acts and not spend any

(28:53):
money.
You can bring in a bottle of water and refill it from the sink.
So you can get away with, and you don't have to dress up.
I think that's important.
Like, you know, there's, when I've got 10,000 people there and half of them
are in blue jeans and t-shirts and that's great.
Like everything's cool.
So you can spend as little as you want.
You can also, you could buy an angel sword for $5,000 and you can buy, you

(29:15):
know, a leather armor for $1,000.
And you can, there's plenty of thousand dollar pair of boots out there.
And, you know, you can tip everybody and you can get the glass blower to make
something custom in your colors.
And you can, I mean, you can spend as much as you want.
So it's really up to you.
And I think that's one of the nice things about it is it's very easy to get away

(29:37):
with the Renaissance Festival being cheaper than SeaWorld or Six Flags or
Schlitterbahn or something like that.
If you're on a budget, you can make it work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that just brought up a question I didn't even have written down, but
you're talking about being able to buy these expensive swords and people
bringing their own garb.
How do you, I mean, how do you deal with that?

(29:59):
I mean, obviously when it's not your, you know, it's not your
hired actors doing it and you've got all these people with weapons that
could hurt somebody.
How do you keep things safe?
Everyone's drinking all this meat and bad light that could pose problems.
Yeah, absolutely.
So what happens is when people walk in the gate, our ticket takers and our

(30:24):
staff are making sure that the weapons are pieced tied, which means there's
something tying the weapon to the scabbard or to the belt.
And if they don't have a pieced tie, we've got a person standing there with
either, you know, zip ties or ribbons or leather straps or whatever.
We've got that day and we'll do it for you.
And so the weapons are tied off in there.

(30:48):
And what's really interesting about that, and this is kind of inside poop
because most people don't get this.
It's not really about the person carrying the sword, pulling the sword out
and stabbing somebody.
It's about the drunk rando pulling out the sword that someone else is
carrying and swinging around.
The people carrying swords tend to be responsible about it, but it's the

(31:11):
guys without the swords who might try to pull out someone else's sword.
So that's why you tie it down.
And then, you know, if people buy a sword in the show, the sword seller
will either give it to them in a cardboard box or if they're going to wear
it, they'll pieced tie it for them.
So we were pretty good about keeping the weapons tied to the scabbards.

(31:34):
That makes sense.
That makes sense.
Let's throw them in there.
Just on that thing, if someone does pull out steel and they're not an actor
doing a skit, you know, I've got 2000 people working there.
And I think almost all of them would, if they're standing next to that person,

(31:54):
would say, whoa, you can't do that.
Yeah.
How close are you?
Are you actively involved in the day to day with these things?
Are you kind of a ruler from afar?
It sounds like you're in Texas.
So I assume you're close to this compound, so to speak, right?

(32:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm very involved.
My leadership team is amazing and they know what to do.
And if I got hit by a bus, the show would not miss a beat,
but I'm still quite involved.
So I live about an hour away from the theme park
and I'm probably there 35 of the year's 52 weekends.

(32:40):
And there are a handful of leaders in my business that I talk to every week.
And yeah, I'm very involved, but I don't have to be.
It's more like I want to be and I enjoy it and hopefully I'm helpful.
So I had a couple of my one-to-ones today and my third question is always,
how can I help you?

(33:01):
So I'm just trying to be helpful to my team.
And they know what they're doing, so I don't get to help so much.
Yeah, that's a good thing for sure.
Let's now talk about, we talked a lot about your passion here,
but you're really passionate about helping other people too, part of your book.
So talk a little bit more about passions.

(33:21):
And then I think you've even created Five Pathways, right?
That's what your book is all about.
So talk about those Five Pathways.
Yeah, so the book, which did hit number one on Amazon, I'm super happy about that.
Congratulations.
The book is, thank you, is a framework whereby the reader can choose the relationship between

(33:41):
their passion and their work.
And what I think is cool about that and what's resonating is,
I'm not saying what most books say, which is, I did this, you should do this too.
It's really more of a framework and it's like,
you answer these questions and do these exercises.
And then it falls out which of the Five Paths makes sense for you.
And so it's kind of custom.

(34:04):
And it's also, I think it's too easy to say,
your work and your passion should be the same thing now, right?
That's probably not the right answer for most young people.
And so the Five Pathways are passion now.
And of course, that is the right answer for some people.
There's independent, which means your passion and your work don't have anything to do with each other.

(34:29):
And that's okay.
And it may be that your work funds your passion on weekends or something.
That's okay.
So the passion now path tends to be for people who know what their passion is,
they know how to make money from it,
and their expectations for financial success are low.
The independent path tends to be for people who they may know what their passion is,

(34:51):
but they don't think they can monetize it.
So they have a job that they like, and it funds their passion on the side.
The experiment path is typically for people who don't know what their passion is.
And it's kind of hopping around and trying things out.
You could try different geographies or different industry sectors,
or government versus nonprofit versus business or academia.

(35:13):
So there's experiment paths.
There's the money path.
And we all know people on that where they just want to get, they have to get rich.
Nothing else matters.
They have to get rich.
And I try very hard not to say that that's the wrong path.
There's a certain background and personality type where that's the right thing to do.
And then there's the balance path.
And that's the last one.

(35:35):
And that's what I did, which is you know what your passion is,
or you know that you want to spend your work time on your passion,
but you really need to build wealth and capabilities and reputation and network first
so that your probability of success is higher.
So it becomes lower risk.
And so that's what I did.
I kind of worked in what I call the real world for 20 years.

(35:58):
And then I had the money and the skills to have a higher probability of success
bringing my passion and my work life together.
So that's what the book's about.
Yeah, and it's going well.
And I'm having fun with it.
So what's your why?
What made you decide to write a book like this?
Because it is unique because I think a lot of people write these books
and it is exactly what you said.

(36:19):
This is what I did.
This is how you should do it.
Or kind of explaining why one way is better than others.
There's not a lot of books out there that give you all the different paths
and kind of let you have a choose your own adventure.
Yeah, it's because I've been thinking about the book.
Thinking about this question.

(36:41):
What's the relationship between my passion and my work for 30 years?
And I've been taking little notes on my phone,
I guess, for the years I've had a phone in that time frame.
Because it's kind of been an obsession of mine.
That's part one.
Part two is everything out there was I did this so you should do it too,

(37:05):
which I just thought was bullshit.
Like, you know, assuming everybody's the same, it's just wrong.
And then, you know, once that in the third part of there's this framework
that I've loved for a long time.
It's called Ikigai.
It's a Japanese word meaning reason for being.
And it's on my desk back here.

(37:26):
And it's four circles.
The circles are what are you good at?
What can you get paid for?
What does the world need?
And what do you love?
And if you can spend your time in the middle where all four are true,
that's your reason for being.
And I love this idea for years and years and years,
but it never worked tactically.
It didn't give me an answer.

(37:47):
It didn't give me a choice to make and next steps to take.
And so then, you know, the light bulb went off at some point where
I took the four Ikigai circles and synthesized them into one question,
which is, can I monetize a passion?
And then I came up with another question, which is, what is my need for financial security?

(38:07):
And that became the core of my framework.
And at that point, I thought, okay, this is useful.
And so that's why I wrote the book because I thought it was useful.
So what's the book like, look like when it comes to the structure of it?
Because obviously, when people tell you this is what I did, this is what you should know,
that's very rarely really that helpful.
But what it does do is go into some pretty intense depth on exactly what they're doing.

(38:30):
So given that you're covering all five, how do you balance that,
making sure that people kind of understand all five?
Because just knowing that all these options are out there doesn't do them much good
if they don't really know how to actually act on it.
Yeah, the structure of my book is really easy to explain.
So it's only about 250 pages or four hours of listening time.

(38:52):
I think the audible version comes out in a couple of weeks.
But I've got a chapter on each of the Ikegai circles, which is, what are you good at?
What does the world need?
What can you get paid for?
And what do you love?
And that's just to get the juices flowing, right?
To think about these things holistically.
Then I introduce my framework, which is, can you monetize a passion?
And what's my need for financial security?

(39:13):
And there's kind of four answers to one question and three answers to another.
And that outputs one of the five paths.
And then I've got a chapter on each of the paths.
And the cool thing about the chapter on each path is it's not just describing it.
It's laying out a work plan, right?
If this is your path, here are the five things you need to do first.
And then here are the things you need to think about after those five things are done.

(39:35):
And so it's very tactical in the sense that I want people to read the book
and have a very tactical game plan of things they're going to go do.
I like that.
And this is probably the, I guess, most cutting question that I have.
And I ask this anytime I have people that are in the self-help type area of helping other people achieve success.

(40:00):
And just to create some why people want to listen to you.
And there's people that are listening that think, oh, all this sounds great, but I wasn't the CFO.
I wasn't somebody in the executive suite with a five billion dollar company.

(40:21):
I'm not starting at the same level that I feel like George is.
So talk a little bit about, I guess, why people should believe you.
Why people should care what you have to say because you at least at some point,
and you may have, and I don't know your whole story, you may have built up from a very lower level to get to where you were.

(40:42):
But those who are right now at a dead end job working in entry level at a factory, so to speak.
And just like I am not in that level where I can even feel like I have the luxury of trying to figure this out.
I'm just trying to pay the bills.
Yeah, it's a fair question.
So the first thing I'd say is the book is not about me.

(41:05):
The book is a framework that allows each reader to come up with an answer.
And so the answer isn't to go for everyone to go be the CEO of a billion dollar company.
That's not the answer for everybody.
That's the answer for very few people.
So it's not about me and my path.
It's about you and your path.
That's the first thing.
And so, yeah, I think that's the most important part of like why listen to me, because it's not about me.

(41:27):
It's a framework and the framework is useful.
For example, on the Passion Now path, when I give this talk at universities, which I'm doing again tomorrow,
you know, I have an exemplar for each of the five paths.
And the exemplar for my Passion Now path is a friend of mine named Roxanne.
And she is a musician.
And she's been a musician in a band called, it's her band, called Wine and Alchemy.

(41:49):
She's been doing it for 17 years.
And that the Passion Now path was the right path for her as a young person, because she knew that she was never going to love anything more than music.
Maybe her husband and their kid, but, you know, music was her love, like from the beginning.
And she knew that she had the frugality to not starve, even though she probably wasn't going to become Beyonce playing, you know, Renaissance music.

(42:23):
And so the Passion Now path was right for her.
And so she's not going to be rich, but she's going to be rich.
She's not going to be rich, but she's got the mindset of I don't have to be right.
If I'm making a living playing music, I don't have to be rich.
And what she'll do, man, she'll go to Spain for a month, put a hat on the ground, play music for a day, make 200 euro, spend the next day traveling around.

(42:49):
Day three puts the hat down, plays music. It's 200 euro. Day four travels around.
And so, you know, the Passion Now path was right for her. She's been doing that for 17 years.
And so, yeah, you should, you shouldn't listen to me. You should read the book, because it's not about me.
There you go. And it's pretty easy. We've already kind of been talking about it. But again, question I always like to ask authors is, once people have picked it up, they've gotten to that last page, they've closed it.

(43:16):
What do you hope people walk away with?
I hope they walk away with a game plan.
You know, I designed the book to be read with a pen in hand. There's a lot of spaces where you can write things down.
Well, I want them to walk away with, here are the five things that I'm going to do in the next two years.
And I guess even a little bit before that is I want them to choose their path.

(43:42):
And the beautiful thing is, even if the independent path is where you land, so you're the factory worker who's making ends meet.
And you don't, you can't think of a passion to monetize.
But you know what you like to do in the weekends. And so your lot in life or where you are is, you know, you're working in the factory and that's paying the bills to enjoy your life on your spare time.

(44:08):
I think if you land on that through an intellectual exercise and you make that decision and like, this is my decision, I'm going to work in this fucking factory because I like to smoke pot and play video games on Saturday.
That's what I'm doing. It's very empowering for you to make that choice. And so that's, you know, that's what I want is I think people will be more fulfilled.

(44:29):
If their path is their choice or they get their head around. I'm doing this because this is what I'm supposed to be doing or what makes sense for me to do.
Yeah, and I really, I really like that you said that just because that's kind of what I've gathered from from our conversation is that, unlike a lot of books, it isn't, you know, you've got that one, one path that you know,
all about cash, but it's not necessarily just a get rich quick scheme of this is what you need to do. It's more helping you be comfortable in whatever decision you make. So I thought that was really, really powerful for sure. I like that a lot.

(45:02):
That's exactly it. If you make the decision, you're going to be more joyful, productive and content, because it's your goal.
Yeah. So given it's not your, you just your story on how you how you were successful, that would have been maybe easier to write, but you had to go be, you know, very, you know, considerate of other ideas and then also, you know, tie them in even if they weren't your pathways.

(45:29):
What was, what was the hardest part of writing the book.
The hardest part of writing the book is my publisher went bankrupt.
And that sucked. I added a year to the whole thing.
And a bunch of extra costs, because I had to switch publishers and I had to pay for some things that I already paid for. So that was definitely the hardest part.

(45:57):
Yeah, other than that, no, it wasn't difficult because once I had the framework, and the framework is a four by three matrix that each square, 12 squares has one or two of the five pathways in it.
Once I had that, it was like, okay, I know where I'm going. I can talk about the four Ikegai circles. I can introduce the framework. I can talk about the five paths. Right now it's easy.

(46:21):
I mean, I work in higher education. So, you know, you're talking about having your one on ones with some of your employees, you know, a lot of our one on ones is all about, you know, what are you passionate about, make sure that your job is aligning to that.
And if it's not, then they're okay with, hey, this isn't, this isn't necessarily that what you dreamt of. So it's big on passions as well.

(46:44):
So my question to you is have you incorporated this into your own business and trying to make sure that those that you employ are also finding their passions and and happy where they're at.
Yeah, absolutely. So my poor management team, most of them have been with me all 15 years. And, you know, you, you fall into a management position at a Renaissance Festival because you love it.

(47:08):
And because it's kind of a world that you've gotten exposed to and you want to stay in it. So, yeah, I think my team is passionate about what they do.
That being said, I want to comment on this, this notion of like in higher ed constantly asking people what they're passionate about. I think it's misleading. And there's something wrong in the world. So I've got a 17, not 17.

(47:31):
That's next. That's six months from now. I have a 16 year old daughter. She's a junior in high school. And so I'm talking to like college admissions experts on, you know, how to tell her story.
And they all say the same thing is that what admissions councils want to see is that you know what your passion is, you know, you want to get a career in that passion when you graduate college and you're already taking steps toward it now.

(48:02):
At 16. I think that's absurd to expect that of a 16 year old. And also, you know, passion now seems to be what colleges are pushing. That's not right. You know, that's not the right answer for everybody. That's one of five answers.
And, you know, hopefully I'm running around talking to various colleges and it's really resonating. And hopefully I'm going to kind of influence some people that, you know, passion now is one of five pathways.

(48:32):
Now the good thing is the balanced path ends with combining work with passion. But that's, you know, for people who they need some capabilities and they need some capital to have a better probability of success.
Experiment path for you don't know what your passion is. Stop beating me over the head about what's my passion. Let me go into the world and play around with and figure it out.

(48:55):
Even on the money path. Sometimes, you know, sometimes you get to the enough is enough point and you're like, okay, well, I made a bunch of money now. I'm going to I'm going to go give back and I'm going to do something that I'm passionate about.
And then the independent path, you know, the definition of the path is that your work and your passion are unrelated. But a lot of those people, they when they get to retirement, they might spend 30 years kind of giving back and they typically pick an area to give back that they're passionate about.

(49:25):
So you can end with spending your time on something you're passionate about. But I think it's wrong to kind of pound on all the 20 year olds that you have to do that right now. I think that's a big mistake.
Yeah. Well, you're talking to somebody who is in the administrative side of admissions at a college. So I will I guess I'm going to challenge you a little bit with that. The question, I guess what I would ask you is, because I agree with you to an extent.

(49:54):
And that is, you know, I always I always ask, you know, a question I like to ask is, what's something that you can do that's going to make you money that it's not going to want you to hit snooze 30 times every, every morning you want to do something that's going to make you want to get out of bed.
But at the same time, you got to make money. That's a big thing. So you know, when I have somebody in my office in Indianapolis, Indiana that wants to be, you know, a cartoon animator, but they know they never want to leave Indiana, then that's probably not the pathway we should go because that's not a place that you're going to make money at.

(50:26):
So with those caveats of, hey, we've got to make sure that it fits, you know, if you want to be a culinary chef, you probably are going to have to move somewhere because the heartland isn't where you're going to probably find a ton of jobs, not that it's not there, but you're not going to find a ton.
But you still don't want to set somebody up, you know, because you do have some people that come in and just says, I just need to make money. That's all I care about.

(50:49):
So do we want to set them up to go get a degree for years that they hate, and then 30 years of doing a job that they hate. I feel like passion may be the wrong word, but we've got to make sure that they're doing something that they can at least enjoy.
Yeah, I would agree with that. So, you know, I very much enjoyed my career. I've sometimes said I loved my career, but I wasn't passionate about it. Right? So passion is just a higher standard than enjoyed or even loved or will get you out of bed. It's a much higher standard.

(51:20):
But I find the universities are using that word. They're using that high standard. But to put a finer point on answering your question, let's say you want to be a graphic illustrator and you're in Indiana and you're saying, well, you might not find work here because there's not a lot of that going on here.
You might have to move. Well, that's where the x axis of my framework comes in is your need for financial security, high, medium or low. If your need for financial security is low, you might be able to be a graphic illustrator in Indiana.

(51:50):
If your need for financial security is high, you probably shouldn't be a graphic illustrator for the first 10, 15, 20 years. You should probably go do something to make a bunch of money and then be a graphic illustrator later.
Right. So, yeah, that's why I think my framework is helpful.
I guess the question I have there is, how does, because I agree that it's a lot to put on an 18 year old of truly knowing that their passion is going to be in life. That's almost impossible.

(52:18):
At the same time, how, because I can see your book helping somebody in the middle stages of their career, but do you think that an 18 year old would be able to know how important it is to them to make money right now they're still living with their parents, they have no concept of exactly what it's what they're going to need.
Yeah, some do some don't, you know, most don't. There's a great segmentation by a psychologist at Stanford named Bill Damon, and he's like the leading psychologist of adolescence, been around for, been studying the topic like 50 years.

(52:49):
And he categorizes young people in these four categories, and one of them is purposeful, and he puts about 20% of young people in the purposeful category.
And so I think if I can take that to 21 I'll have done some good for the world. You know, I also think that, you know, my, my framework answers. If you don't know what your passion is there's a path for you so like on the my y axis, can you monetize a passion.

(53:14):
The answers are yes now yes later. I don't know, and no. So everyone's going to be in one of those. Right. And so if you're 18 and you don't know what your passion is. I've got a whole chapter on how to figure it out.
And if you don't, there's the experiment path, and I've got some guidelines and some next steps on the experiment path so you're kind of maximizing the probability that you will figure it out.

(53:38):
Yeah, yeah, the last thing I'll say when it comes to higher education is the good thing about the world of higher education at the moment is, it's a really big thing to make sure that things are are transferable within degrees because the average person, you know they
switch degrees five times right there, why they're in school, and even once you get a degree. A lot of times now, what matters is that you have that degree that's what they're looking for it's not in a specific area.

(54:03):
So people are setting themselves up for for failure because they got an English degree in our admissions office. I have an HR degree we've got somebody with a history degree doesn't necessarily.
It's not like anyone's having to pick what they're doing I feel like no matter what once they go, go off, you know they still can pursue those passions and they're not you know starting with their hands tied behind their back so to speak.

(54:27):
Yeah, I think that's fair, and I you know I think that's particularly fair in the humanities I think if you want a career in accounting or engineering or chemistry, kind of need to study accounting or engineering or chemistry.
But yeah, you know, there's you know it's probably more common than not that your degree and your work are not related. Right. And that's okay.

(54:51):
Hopefully, the university's teaching you how to think, not what to think.
Yeah, I hear you so you're you're on the speaking tour and it sounds like you're going to university so what is your message to, I guess all of your audience is not just necessarily in universities or what's what's the message that you're you're giving.
Hopefully you're not going into university and saying, everything they've told you so far is wrong because you're going to make people leave and think oh no, what have I got myself into.

(55:19):
I'm not saying that at all. I'm always saying that to you, I think you're the first person who said that to but I have an outline of an article that I want to write that's on that topic because I've got a 16 year old and I'm like, why are you telling her she has to know what her career is that's terrible.
And then when I do my talks, you know I do like a 35 minute summary of the book.

(55:42):
And then what's really kind of fun is all the, the students pull out their phone and they zap a QR code and they take a little five minute picture path tool, and they all pick a path.
And then we talked about that we do q amp a it's it's really high impact I mean the people are loving it. But what I want to leave them with is, you get to choose.
And if you make the choice, you're going to be happier with what you're doing. I love that. And let's talk about how you're going to leave.

(56:08):
Leave the listeners here how people going to pick up your book how people going to connect with you as a whole. You've got all these different businesses shout out anything you like at the moment.
Yeah, I mean my book is on amazon.com barmese no.com target.com it's in some airports and some bookstores, it's around, you know, I think it seems that most of the books in the country are sold at Amazon and you probably get it delivered tomorrow if you're on prime it's called don't settle a picture path guide to intentional work by George Appling.

(56:36):
And yeah, you can, I've got a website, you know, George appling.com or people can learn more about me and get in touch and you can follow me on social media and LinkedIn and all that good stuff.
Yeah, well I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much, George.
All right, thank you, Jackson.
So, George Appling really appreciate his time I learned so much about the world of the Renaissance and Renaissance fairs. You know, I think a ton of people are like me that kind of lump that into the medieval world and I think that there's several years in between so I appreciate George talking about that just about how serious

(57:12):
you know that world is and people getting certifications and sword handling and falconry and all that kind of stuff. I appreciate him kind of talking about that documentary that I had seen of course he doesn't have anything to do with it but he does know the, the actor so to speak.
So that was that was kind of enlightening for sure. Yeah, I urge you to check out his book to you know we went into detail there, the book is called don't settle a picture path guide to exceptional work.

(57:40):
I think the things he has to say is it's really interesting there's there's a lot of people that kind of pick one path to to get rich and, and stuff like that and he said you know that's not necessarily always the case you don't have to do that you just got to find a passion and figure out when you're going to pursue it and hopefully, you know, maybe you can find a way to do it all at least at some point in your life whether it's at the same time or not that's that's up to you.

(58:06):
But yeah I urge you to check out his book, all of the links to his information his website his book, the festival that will all be in the show notes the festival, you know it'll it'll be happening again in 2025 so go down to Texas check it out.
But yeah I really really appreciate you being here I appreciate George for being here. This is your first time listening, please go follow along on Instagram on Spotify on tick tock on Apple podcast all those places on Instagram and on tick tock it's not enough podcast on Facebook

(58:40):
it's not enough for Jackson have Spotify and Apple, of course go subscribe and follow whichever one for each, leave that five star rating that helps a lot leave a written review on Apple helps even more but we'll see you next week.
Take it away Chris.
This has been not in a huff with Jackson huff. Thank you for listening. Be sure to join us next time where we will interview another amazing guest who is sure to make you laugh or make you think, or pay, maybe even both.

(59:10):
But until then, keep being awesome.