January 15, 2025 • 47 mins
This week, I had an enjoyable time with Heather Gudenkauf. She is a bestselling author of at least ten mystery novels, known for her skill in weaving complex narratives with multiple timelines and perspectives. Her newest book continues this tradition, showcasing her unique storytelling style.
Here's what we talked about in this podcast:
- Our shared love for women’s basketball and its connection to her Iowa roots.
- Heather’s journey as an author and her inspiration for writing mysteries.
- How she approaches crafting stories with multiple timelines and perspectives.
- The unique storytelling elements in her book Before She Was Found.
- The process of making different mediums (like emails and diaries) work cohesively in a novel.
- Her advice to aspiring authors on tackling complex narratives.
You’ll definitely fall in love with this episode, her journey and advice are sure to captivate and inspire!
_____________________________________
Heather Gudenkauf - New York Times Bestselling Author | Novelist
Amazon.com: Heather Gudenkauf: books, biography, latest update
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Link to all things Not in a Huff Podcast: https://linktr.ee/notinahuffpodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm like, can you just like lay down in the doorway for me?
(00:04):
I just kind of need you to lay there
so I can kind of visualize to see if the scene will work.
And he's like, am I a dead body?
And I'm like, well.
Welcome to Not in a Huff with Jackson Huff,
where we interview newsmakers, storytellers,
and all around interesting people.
Sit back, relax, unless you're driving, and enjoy the show.
(00:27):
Here's Jackson.
Sit.
Hello, hello, hello.
I am Jackson Huff.
This is Not in a Huff.
Thanks so much for joining me.
As always, we really appreciate it.
This week, speaking with Heather Gudenkopf.
Now, Heather is a bestselling author.
She's written at least 10 books.
She's got a new one that recently came out
that we're going to talk about.
But we're mainly going to talk about the process
(00:49):
of writing mysteries.
I've talked to plenty of authors in the past.
A lot of them have been writing nonfiction,
writing their story, their parents' story,
that kind of thing.
But occasionally, I actually get the honor
of speaking with somebody whose mystery books
that I already read.
I have an extended drive to work each morning.
(01:11):
I like to listen to the audiobooks.
And last week was all about my favorite audiobook, Narrator.
So this week, just another amazing author
that writes mystery books.
And the reason I wanted to have her on,
because she writes them from a lot different perspective
than a lot of people.
There's a lot of authors that maybe write something
(01:33):
from present day.
And then there's a secondary story from 30 years ago.
And they just intertwine.
And eventually, they tie together.
And Heather does that.
The book that I recently read, she did just that.
But it had several different timelines going.
But she wrote a book at one point called
Before She Was Found.
(01:53):
And I read that one probably a year and a half, two years ago.
And that one just really, really amazed me,
because it had several different timelines.
It had different perspectives.
It had you reading the psychiatric journals
of one character, the high school
diary of another, emails, all this.
She was able to make into a cohesive story
(02:14):
to understand where everyone was coming from
and eventually solve a mystery.
And that was a missing little girl
and some battered other children.
And it was quite the story.
I think it takes a lot to be able to come up
with these stories.
But then it takes so much more to be able to, in the book,
have so many different mediums and still make it all make
sense.
So I knew I needed to have Heather on.
(02:37):
I really enjoyed our conversation.
We kind of start with our love of women's basketball.
She is from Iowa.
Of course, that's where the great Caitlin Clark is from.
And I am in Indiana.
So of course, we are reaping the benefits of her talent
now with the fever.
So we'll talk a little bit about that.
But we'll quickly get to just her journey as an author,
(02:59):
how she writes these stories to be cohesive with so
many different things going on.
She gives advice to other authors
should they ever want to put a book out there.
I think you're really going to enjoy this one.
Here is Heather Gudenkopf.
Ms. Gudenkopf, how are you?
I'm good.
Thanks for having me.
Well, thanks for joining me.
Let's, I guess, let you do the heavy lifting to start.
(03:19):
Just introduce yourself.
Yeah, well, I'm Heather Gudenkopf.
I'm the New York Times USA Today bestselling author
of 10 thrillers, including my latest,
which is Everyone Is Watching.
I live in the beautiful state of Iowa with my family
and a very spoiled German short hair pointer named Lolo.
(03:42):
And I'm thrilled to be here with you tonight.
I'm thrilled to have you.
And you've already addressed the thing
that I wanted to talk about first.
You're from Iowa.
A lot of your books are set in Iowa.
I've seen you comment and like some of Caitlin Clark's
messaging.
I'm in Indiana.
I'm wearing my Caitlin Clark jersey for you.
(04:04):
It's my 22 Caitlin Clark jersey.
So I guess I got to thank you as a Hawkeye fan
for giving us Caitlin Clark, right?
Yeah, yeah, she's fantastic.
And I graduated from the University of Iowa.
My three kids graduated from the University of Iowa.
So we bleed black and gold through and through.
(04:26):
And I really have always been a fan of basketball.
And it's just been so much fun to see
Caitlin and her teammates because they
were a phenomenal team.
And to know that she's in Indiana with the fever
and they've taken such good care of her.
And being on the world stage is not easy, I'm sure.
(04:49):
And it's just been so much fun to see
the sport of basketball grow along with Caitlin
and with all the other players.
I am an Indiana fever fan for life.
I do not miss a game.
I love it.
Have you been able to come and watch any games?
No, no, not yet.
And that is on my bucket list for sure.
(05:10):
It would be really a highlight to be able to watch
the fantastic team play for sure.
Yeah, well, this isn't just a podcast about sports.
But if you're ever in Indianapolis,
let us know.
I live 10 minutes from the arena and we go quite frequently.
So it's always a good time for sure.
Absolutely.
I'm on every single one of my birthday list,
(05:34):
my Christmas list, every list I have.
So hopefully we can get there.
One of these.
I like it.
The last thing I'll say about the Hawkeyes
is I had a series in this podcast
where I talked to college athletes in gymnastics
and soccer, basketball, all kinds of different things.
So I reached out to a lot of collegiate athletes.
(05:54):
And a large chunk of them actually came from Iowa.
So you've got friendly athletes.
What I'll tell you though is I'm happy that they're so friendly.
But I did go to IU, so I can't really
say a ton positive otherwise about Iowa.
But we'll leave it there.
I totally understand that.
(06:16):
You've got to be loyal to your team.
I totally get that.
Well, let's actually get back to your writing.
And I want to start at the very beginning.
And I guess what inspired you to be a writer?
Where was that passion first created?
Yeah, for me, for most of my life,
(06:37):
I've loved reading and books.
But it hadn't always been that way.
I was a kid who really struggled with school in the beginning.
I was someone who was always behind.
And school was difficult for me.
And it wasn't until the middle of my first grade year
that it was discovered that I had a profound hearing loss.
(06:59):
And so it started to make sense as to why I was so far behind
my classmates in all areas.
But once that was diagnosed and once I got hearing aids,
it was like the whole world opened up.
And reading just clicked for me.
And from then on, I was a huge fan
(07:22):
and just couldn't get enough of books.
And that has stayed with me my entire life.
But it wasn't really until I, and I've always loved writing.
I'm someone who always had kept journals.
I took, I was a part of this high school newspaper.
In college, I took as many writing classes as I could.
(07:43):
But my path really was as an educator.
And I wanted to be a teacher.
And that's what I did.
So I became an elementary education teacher,
loved every minute of it.
But I also knew I had a story in me to tell.
I knew I wanted to write something.
(08:03):
And I had this idea for a story.
And I'd been teaching for several years at that time.
And was teaching third grade.
And my children were school age.
But I just had this burning need to tell this story.
And so I bought a journal and started
(08:23):
writing a very rough draft of what ultimately became
my first book, The Way to Silence.
And I finished that up over the summer and loved it.
I loved the process of it.
I loved getting lost in the story.
And eventually that book got published.
(08:45):
And I've never looked back.
I love that.
And when you were talking about how,
I guess you wrote a rough, rough draft of your first book.
How did you find your genre?
Or is it something that you have always
enjoyed reading yourself?
Is it something that just kind of poured out of you?
Is it something that you knew other people would like?
(09:06):
A nice little beautiful combination of all of it?
Or how did you kind of pick what you wanted to write?
Yeah.
And when I first started, I didn't really
think so much in genre.
Except that I've always loved mysteries.
That is something in regard to the books that I've read.
And I love all genres.
(09:26):
I'll read anything you put in front of me.
But the idea of a mystery and a puzzle that you have to solve,
I really like that idea.
And so that's kind of where I've landed squarely
in the thriller mystery genre.
And part of that is that putting together the puzzle
pieces for other readers.
(09:48):
Because I enjoy that part of reading so much.
But also, I think in regard to genre,
there's so many crossovers in so many books,
and in many books that I love to explore.
For me, and we talked a little bit about this,
(10:10):
the setting is so important to me.
And that's why I include Iowa in just about every one
of my books, or in every one of my books in some way.
And the landscape, and describing it.
And because for me, I feel like setting
is another character in the book.
And I like to bring the reader into the story
(10:35):
by giving them that setting and describing it,
and helping them to feel like they're right there
with me in the story.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've heard a lot of people,
because I've talked to a lot of authors.
I've heard a lot of them mention that setting
is another character of the book, just like you mentioned.
And I've talked to people who write about the Texas Hill
(10:57):
country, people who write about the deserts of Arizona.
I feel like a lot of people, when they think of Iowa,
they don't necessarily know exactly what the setting is.
So what about the Iowa setting, I guess,
draws you so much into including it in all your books?
Yeah, I think most people come to Iowa
(11:18):
because they have a relative here, if they come.
And it's not really a destination for many people.
And it's often thought of as flat, with lots of corn,
lots of farmland, which is partly true.
But if you get the chance to visit Iowa,
you'll also find that it's got the Mississippi
(11:40):
River on one side, and it's got the Missouri River
on the other.
It's got bluffs and rolling hills, and it has caves.
And it's really a very varied landscape,
and it's very beautiful.
And so I want people to know that.
(12:00):
And on top of that, the people you talked about,
the nice athletes from Iowa, people in Iowa
genuinely are very, very nice, friendly folks.
And I like to work that idea into the stories as well.
But my books are thrillers, so there's
got to be a bad guy here or there,
(12:20):
and some intrigue and suspense that way.
But it's my little way of sharing my part of the world
with others.
Yeah, I don't feel like Iowa's too different from Indiana.
You're only a state away.
We've got the Hoosier Hospitality and the corn
as well.
(12:41):
Our amusement park, their slogan is,
there's more than corn in Indiana.
So of course, we do that too.
But no, I've been to Iowa many times.
I see the beauty in the landscape and the people,
just like you said.
So I like that a lot.
I guess I want to ask you another question when
it comes to the early process.
(13:01):
So again, this isn't a book podcast.
It's not one that I exclusively talk to authors,
but I've talked to a lot.
And it seems like when they're first starting,
they've got kind of two different mindsets
that they really, really want to write something,
but they struggle a lot just to get it all down.
(13:21):
They get it on paper, make it make sense.
And then I have the other side of things
where it's just flowing out of them.
And the hardest part for them was
finding a publisher who wants anything
to do with the reading from a new author.
So what was the hardest part for you?
Was it kind of getting things down and making it make sense,
or was it I had that down just fine,
(13:42):
but then where anybody else would actually look at it?
Yeah.
Well, every book is different, every project.
For my first one, I really had this story almost fully formed
in my head that I wanted to tell.
And it's the way to silence.
It's about two young girls who go into the woods,
and only one comes out and she doesn't talk.
(14:03):
And so it's a mystery surrounding her disappearance
and her family's search for the other little girl.
And the story really just flowed out of me over the summer.
That doesn't mean it was fully and completely and well
done at that point, because there was a lot of revising
that went into it.
(14:24):
But it really did flow quite easily for me.
And the publishing journey is very different for everyone.
For me, I set the manuscript aside
because I was teaching at the time,
and I had to get my classroom ready for the coming school
year.
So I stuck it in a drawer.
(14:44):
I didn't know what to do with it because I
didn't come from a publishing world
in any sense of the word.
But at winter break, I pulled it out again, looked at it,
and I always have told my students,
you need to dream big.
You need to go for it.
Follow your dreams.
And I thought that that counted for me as well.
(15:06):
And so I got a book called The Writer's Market,
which is a listing of all the different literary agencies
and publishers in North America.
And it's updated every year.
And I got the book, and I searched for literary agents
that represented the kind of books I liked.
And I thought I'd start with one.
(15:27):
I sent the first 50 pages off.
And a few weeks later, I had a letter back in the mail
asking to see the rest of the manuscript, which
was incredible to me.
I couldn't believe it.
I sent the rest of the manuscript off to her
and waited and waited and waited because he learned very quickly
(15:47):
in publishing.
Nothing moves quickly.
And I got discouraged.
I thought, well, maybe this isn't going to happen.
But I got the nerve up, and I called.
I called New York, and I said, this is Heather from Iowa.
Like I'm the only Heather in the state of Iowa.
But she figured out who I was and said, yes, I really
enjoyed your story.
(16:07):
And I think we can work together, but it needs work.
And so with this agent, we spent the next year and a half
getting the book into really good shape.
And after that year and a half, we sent it out to publishers.
And that's when the rejection letters started coming in.
So my agent would send out a manuscript or two,
(16:30):
wait for feedback.
And for many months, it was rejections.
And so I get copies of those letters, too,
which keeps you very humble.
But after a year and a half, there
was a publisher that wanted to take me on.
And that's where I've been for all intents
(16:55):
and purposes with that same publishing family
since the beginning, and have really found my home there.
Yeah, I think that just speaks to the strength of your work.
Because a lot of times, I hear the story both ways,
where they can't find an agent.
It takes them a year to find an agent,
and then they finally find an agent,
(17:16):
and then it takes another year to find a publisher.
Sometimes they get dropped by one agent.
So I feel like you, at least you,
you cut it down just a little bit
by having a strong story to begin with, it seems like.
Yeah, I really think the stars aligned for me
for some reason in that sense.
And I've been surrounded by this core
of really, really encouraging, supportive people,
(17:41):
including my agent, my publisher, the editors
I've had along the way, including
the one I've had for my last, gosh, seven books.
And I'm really grateful for that.
Because publishing, for as slow as it moves,
it also changes very quickly.
And people move, and situations change.
(18:03):
So I feel very fortunate to have this kind of solid base
that I can call my home base in regard to my writing family,
I would say.
Yeah, and I want to get to your actual writing
style of your books.
But before we get to that, I want to ask just the process
(18:24):
for you.
You're quite a few books in.
So what does it look like when you're
trying to create a new book?
You do have a publisher.
So obviously, you may be working towards certain deadlines
as well.
But what's that look like?
Are you somebody who subscribes to the theory,
no matter what, I need to write two hours a day?
(18:46):
Or what's it look like for you?
Yeah, so that for me has changed through the years.
When I first started writing, my kids were school age.
And I worked full time in education.
And so I just wrote whenever I could.
And that would look like getting up early, staying up late.
(19:08):
It looked like weekends and summer breaks,
like a lot of writers.
I mean, a lot of writers have second jobs.
And it looked like sitting in the parking lot,
waiting to pick up my kids from some practice or another.
And so I just wrote whenever I could.
And it's been 15 years since my first book was published,
(19:31):
going on 16 now.
And so my kids are grown.
I'm not in the education world anymore
and am able to write full time.
So I have a lot more flexibility with that.
But I find that when I'm in the middle of a writing project,
I need to write in some way every day,
at least have my fingers in the story in some way
(19:53):
to keep the momentum going for me.
And that's my style of writing in the sense
of how I approach a novel has evolved over the years as well.
In the writing world, there are really two types of writers.
And it's kind of a continuum as well.
(20:14):
But we have the plotters who outline their books.
They color code everything.
They have spreadsheets.
And they know where they're going.
When they sit down in front of the computer,
they have this path laid out.
And then we have the pantsers who
are writers that write by the seat of their pants.
(20:34):
And I was squarely in that second group for many years.
I would have an idea for a story.
I'd have some characters.
I would jot down some ideas, a summary.
But then I'd just start writing.
And that has worked for me.
But it's also I've written myself
into many, many tough situations where
(20:55):
I have to pull myself out of and heavy revisions, which
is par for the course for me.
But finally, with this book that will be coming out next year,
I thought, I'm going to try something different.
And so I really plotted it out.
I had the spreadsheet.
I had the outline.
(21:16):
And I really have to admit, I like it.
I like having that roadmap in front of me.
What I didn't want to lose was those moments as a writer
when that aha comes to you.
And you're surprised yourself as you're writing.
(21:36):
And an idea or a thought comes that really sparks the book.
And I was afraid I was going to lose that by scripting
what my day was going to look like.
But I found that those still come.
And I'm glad for that.
So we'll see.
We'll see what people think of my next one, the one
(21:58):
that I've really outlined.
But I have to say, I still do a lot of heavy revisions.
That's just kind of the writer I am.
I describe myself as I write ugly.
And I get everything on the page.
And the good, the bad, the ugly.
And then I go back in and really try
(22:20):
to make something more cohesive out
of this stuff in front of me.
All right, I got you.
And being right by the seat of your pants type of person
is extra impressive that you've done that for so long,
just given your style.
Now, full transparency, I've read two of your books.
(22:40):
I've read, and you have them behind you.
So I appreciate that because it always just leaves my mind.
But I've read before she was found
and I read The Overnight Guest.
Those are the two that I've read.
And both of them, and I believe most of your books
are this way where it follows several different perspectives
(23:01):
and different timelines.
So you've got something present day, 20 years in the past,
that type of thing.
So that makes it even more difficult, I feel like,
just to go by the seat of your pants.
But it sounds like that's what you said that you've done.
So what does that look like?
Do you write one person's full story out and then another?
Or are you truly writing it the way
(23:21):
that people are reading it?
Typically, and it depends.
Every book's a little different.
But typically, I begin where I write it
the way people read it.
So if I have one perspective, a character that starts,
I'll start with a character, go to the next one.
(23:41):
Go to the next one.
So it's kind of like a baton, like in a relay race
that they pass the story on to one another.
I did, though, for The Overnight Guest,
which takes place in present day and two decades earlier,
it's kind of a complex story.
So I thought I would approach that one a little differently.
(24:03):
And it really worked for me.
I decided to write the events that took place 20, 25 years
before, which happened to take place in the summer.
And I wrote those during the summer months,
which we know in the Midwest is always very hot and muggy
and buggy.
And so I focused on a good chunk of the story
that's set in that time frame.
(24:25):
And then when winter came around,
I focused on the winter 20 years later.
It's in the middle of this 100 year blizzard.
And that really worked for me.
I really liked that.
Now, I wasn't able to write the whole story through that way,
but I was able to write to a certain point
and then weave in the winter months.
(24:49):
And it really flowed nicely doing it that way for me.
And so what I found is I guess I really
don't have one approach and that each story is different.
Each story needs to be approached in a different way.
And I have to figure out what that is
as I jump into a new project.
(25:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, and then before she was found, of course,
we only read two.
But if all of your books are that, I guess,
complex between the two of them, then I
mean, that's extra impressive just because from
the reviews that I've read, and I agree with it too,
it takes a lot to be able to write
(25:33):
a book that makes sense with how many different kinds of,
I guess, mediums like before she was found.
It was journal entries.
It was actual, just regular writing.
I think it was even like a psychologist's files.
Like how did you go about that?
Because that's tough to make people understand everything
(25:54):
happening when there's so many different ways
that the information is assimilated.
Yeah, and that before she was found,
which is the story of a group of preteens,
and there's a big mystery surrounding one of them.
Three girls go into a train yard and two come out.
(26:15):
One comes out, but she's gravely injured.
And that story was very loosely based on,
I don't know if you've heard of the Slender Man case, which
was a story out of Wisconsin several years ago,
where two best friends attacked a third friend.
And there was the story about the Slender Man, which
(26:38):
was this online entity that they said encouraged them
to do these terrible things.
Well, this was the kernel of the idea.
And so I knew that it's an adult book,
but I knew by having these younger characters, as well
as their parents, a child psychiatrist, and others,
(27:00):
that I needed to express their thoughts, their feelings
in different modes.
So there is the journal entries of one of the young girls.
There is text messages.
There is online forums.
There is just first person thoughts
of the parents who are grappling with this terrible thing that's
(27:24):
happened in their community.
And I just found it was a really unique, effective way
to tell the story and to help bring the reader along
and seeing all these different perspectives
and the different ways of communicating.
So I really, really enjoy writing that way.
(27:44):
A lot of my books do have those multiple modes,
I guess you would call it.
Another interesting piece about before she was found,
since we're talking about that one,
I knew that I needed to talk to, in regard to research,
a child psychiatrist.
(28:05):
And so I went to the University of Iowa website
and looked through, and I found a random one.
I knew I wanted to talk to a woman.
I emailed her, and I explained the story, the premise,
and that it was very, the glint of the idea
came from this case, the Slender Man case in Wisconsin.
(28:25):
But it's completely different.
I just wanted to know what her life as a child psychiatrist
looked like, what did her day look like, her education,
and that sort of thing.
She got back to me very quickly and said,
you're never going to believe this.
And she said she, as a medical student, a resident,
(28:46):
she worked underneath the forensic psychiatrist who
treated and evaluated the girls in that Slender Man
case in Wisconsin, which to me just
gives me goosebumps every time.
Now, of course, she didn't talk to me about that specific case.
She wasn't involved in it, and she wouldn't talk
about specific cases at all.
(29:07):
But just having that perspective and doing
that kind of research where you talk to people who
are in specific fields to help inform my writing
is really an important part of what I do as well.
Yeah, I would assume that it does take a lot of research
there, and you've already kind of mentioned
(29:29):
with your first book and then the two
that we've talked about.
But how do you generally get your ideas?
Or is it a rip from the headlines type thing?
Is it just something that you wake up
at 3 o'clock in the morning after write down,
or what's that look like?
Yeah, typically I do get a lot of my ideas
from the news, from the newspapers.
(29:51):
And something catches my eye and take it
in a completely different direction.
But that kind of medium with the news
and how timely things are, choosing something
that catches my eye in that way is typically
how I choose the next project.
(30:13):
Are you somebody who is working on one project at a time,
or do you have a lot of balls in the air?
What's that look like?
Typically, I can only do one thing at a time
because I do get so immersed.
And like I said, I'm kind of a messy writer.
So typically, I work on one project at a time.
(30:35):
While I'm working on one book, I do
have a running list of ideas for the next one.
So that's in the back of my mind,
but I don't put a lot of thought into that
until I finish at least a good solid first draft
of my book that I'm currently working on.
Yeah, I can read like four books at a time,
(30:57):
but I cannot write more than one book at a time.
That seems just too invested and involved
in the characters and the story that I'm working on.
Yeah, and this is a question, of course,
you have to ask all mystery writers.
It's a silly question because of course, it's
just the art of doing things and being creative.
(31:18):
But what does your family think about being
able to come up with all these gruesome ideas?
Do they ever look at you sideways?
Yeah, my poor husband, yeah, always, always.
And I'll come up to him and ask him some random questions.
I remember once, the poor guy, I'm like,
can you just lay down in the doorway for me?
(31:39):
I just kind of need you to lay there
so I can kind of visualize to see if the scene will work.
And he's like, am I a dead body?
And I'm like, well.
So they humor me.
And a lot of people who know me are a little surprised
because I like to think of myself
as kind of this soft spoken, quiet kind of person,
(32:02):
and nice and cheerful.
And I do have these dark thoughts that come out
in my writing.
And I often get asked, what kind of childhood did you have?
And I am so pleased to say I had a wonderful childhood.
My parents, I'm the youngest of six.
(32:24):
My parents were wonderful people.
And I like to say that I really grew up
in a household where I could express who I was
and to explore the things that I was interested in.
And they really gave me the confidence
to go ahead and be the writer that I am today.
And so I owe a lot to them.
(32:45):
Yeah, and I always like to ask, too,
it's kind of the last question when
it comes to the pen and paper aspect of your writing,
given I've said it already that this is a book club where
we go into deep plots about an individual book.
Is there any books that you want to kind of highlight
that you want people to check out?
(33:07):
Any books that recently came out?
Any books that you're particularly proud of?
Anything you want to highlight?
Yeah, there's something special about each of my books.
But my most recent book was a lot of fun.
It was a little bit different for me.
Everyone is watching.
And it's the story of five strangers
who are invited to take part in an over the top reality
(33:29):
competition series where the grand prize is $10 million.
And so they travel to this remote location
on a vineyard in wine country.
And as the games begin, the challenges
become more and more dangerous, even deadly.
And as they're playing the games,
(33:51):
some secrets that they had thought
were long kind of hidden and buried
are starting to come to the surface.
And the entire world is watching because the games
are being live streamed across the world.
And so that was really fun to write.
I had to create this reality series from the ground up,
(34:12):
create these characters who all had these dark secrets.
And so it's a very fast paced, fun kind of read.
And one thing while writing that and kind of doing my research.
So my research, and that's in finger quotes,
I watched a lot of reality TV.
So my husband would walk by my office and peek in.
(34:33):
And I'm watching Big Brother or Survivor or something.
And I'm like, it's research.
It counts.
But one of the aspects of the book
is also the audience perspective of who's watching the show.
And I live in the book world.
And so when I'm on social media, it's all the book stuff.
(34:55):
And people are very supportive and happy and talking books.
And it's all very lovely.
But we both know and everybody knows
how the dark side of social media
and how people really get really dragged, I guess,
is the best word.
And I've given a lot of talks about this book
(35:16):
everyone is watching.
And I always do bring up women's basketball.
And Caitlin Clark and her basketball colleagues,
because here are these 20-year-old women playing
basketball.
And that's all they wanted to do.
And all of a sudden, they are thrown into the limelight.
And the comments, the horrid comments
(35:38):
that people are making about looks, about eyelashes,
about the way they play.
And all these young women from all these different teams
want to do is play basketball.
And they have to contend with these armchair warriors
behind the keyboard with a lot to say.
(36:00):
And I really tried to convey that in the book as well.
But yeah, social media, there's a lot of great things about it.
But there's a lot of, there's a dark side to that as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a good segue when it comes into opinions
of your books.
(36:20):
Have there been any surprises?
Of course, you pour yourself into all your books.
But have you had any books that you're like, wow,
I'm not really sure about that.
And then it went, people just loved it.
And then obviously, conversely, where you thought,
this is really solid.
And it just didn't do too well.
Have you had any surprises in your career?
(36:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think every time I
see a book, one of my books on a bookshelf
in either a bookstore or a library,
it's just such a thrill.
I never would have thought, like a third grade teacher
from Iowa, so that's always a thrill.
I've had a couple of New York Times bestsellers,
which has been a ton of fun, a nice honor.
(37:02):
But there's been some books that have kind of flown
under the radar that are really special to me.
I'm thinking of Not a Sound, which
is the story of a woman who is deafened in an accident.
And I have always wanted to write a character who
has a hearing loss.
(37:22):
And so I thought long and hard about it,
because writing from the deaf perspective
could be tricky, because I am hearing.
I can hear.
But I wanted to really investigate
and write about this amazing character, Amelia,
who has to navigate life after this profound injury.
(37:48):
And I really love that.
I did a lot of research.
I talked to a lot of readers who are deaf
and who gave me wonderful insights and read the book
and gave their thumbs up, their seal of approval.
And that meant a lot to me as well.
Yeah.
We've got three more questions.
(38:09):
And I think they're relatively complex ones.
So the next one is going to be about audiobooks.
I have somebody who does a podcast
and is really big on the audio side of things.
There's somebody who's interviewed
quite a few of the top audiobook readers out there.
How much thought on your end goes
(38:29):
into the readers of your audiobook?
Because I think that makes or breaks a book.
And I know that some publishers pick it themselves.
Some of them really listen to the authors, which
it looked like for you.
Yeah.
So for me over the years, typically what my publisher
would do was they would send me an audio recording
(38:52):
of a handful of readers.
And then I would listen and see if I
could match what I think would fit the story,
the characters of my book the best.
And that's always a nice feeling for an author
to be involved in those conversations.
And I've been really fortunate with my audiobook readers
(39:14):
over the years.
And a couple of my favorites have read my books.
Julia Whalen, who's a prolific, phenomenal reader,
did Not a Sound and Love Her.
And Britt Presley.
Brittany Presley is another one of my favorites.
And she's done, oh my gosh, my last four or five books
(39:36):
at least.
And so she's really been my go-to over the years,
and the last several books.
So I'm hoping that we can continue that,
because she really seems to capture my characters perfectly.
And there's so many.
And I think you're right.
I always have a book on my e-reader.
I always have the physical book on my bedside table.
(40:01):
And I always have an audiobook going.
And it's just so great to get lost in the story
and have this narrator just really fully embody
the characters of a book.
There's nothing like it.
It's so much fun.
Absolutely.
I agree 100%.
So the hardest question that I've got for you is just about,
(40:26):
and when I talk to authors that have had success, that have
those New York Times bestselling books,
they have the luxury of stepping back and looking
at the industry as a whole.
And I've talked to some people who
have been New York Times bestselling authors
for 30 plus years.
And we always talk a little bit about the world of publishing.
(40:48):
And a lot of them at this point have said,
I've got the fan base.
Thank God I have the fan base now
where I don't have to play the game.
I don't have to worry about deadlines.
And I don't have to worry about making sure
the publisher loves things.
And a lot of people with the advent of Amazon
has taken things into their own hand at this point.
(41:09):
So how do you feel about the world of publishing
at the moment?
Do you feel like that traditional model
of taking years for people to be discovered still works?
Or do you think that it's going by the wayside?
Yeah, I think you're right.
Publishing has changed a ton.
(41:30):
Even in when I started querying, so 18 years ago,
to being published for 15 years, it's changed a ton.
What I really love now is there are so many different ways
for people to get published, like you mentioned.
So people are able to find what works best for them
and what's right for them.
(41:51):
And never can it be said that less books is better.
So the more that we can get people's work out there
in whatever format and whatever way,
the better because that means more people are reading
and there's more access to books and literature.
I've been very fortunate that traditional publishing,
(42:12):
I found what has worked for me so far.
And as I mentioned, I have this kind
of core group of supporters around me
that help make that happen.
And I have a really close relationship with my agent
and with my editor and the team there,
which is really special.
(42:33):
But I also know enough about publishing
that that may not last forever because things
change so quickly.
So I'm really embracing that now and enjoying every moment
I have that I get to do this job that I love.
I've been so fortunate in my life
that I've been able to do two things I love.
I've been a teacher and I write.
(42:53):
And so whatever happens in my writing career
and who I publish with, I think I will always be a writer.
And I will always try and find a way to get those words down
and share them with others, whatever that might look like.
(43:13):
I love that.
I'm sure you can't get through an interview without how
often I answer this question.
But for those who are interested in writing,
what advice do you have for people starting out?
Yeah, my best advice, and I say this every time,
just sit down and write.
Don't let the outside world come in.
(43:34):
Just write the story that you would like to read
or whatever it is you're interested in.
Just write it.
And worry.
Don't edit yourself.
Don't be critical of what you get down.
Just get it down on paper.
That's the hardest part.
And then you get the opportunity and always go back
(43:54):
and make the changes and fix it.
But write the story that you want to read.
And you'll be amazed at how the pages start piling up.
I love that.
How can people catch your books?
How can they follow along with you?
Yeah, so you can find me at HeatherGunnkopf.com.
(44:16):
I am on social media.
I'm on Facebook and on Instagram.
I'm on TikTok a little bit, on threads a little bit.
I also do a really fun interview series
with two other thriller authors called The Killer Author Club.
And we interview every other week
these fantastic thriller writers throughout the world,
(44:39):
world-wide known thriller writers.
And we have so much fun with that.
You can find us at KillerAuthorClub.com,
on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube.
It's really been a really fun experience
to be able to chat with fellow writers in that way.
So yeah, so come find me.
(45:00):
And I love to catch up with readers and connect with them.
Absolutely.
I urge people to do that.
All the links to the things that you mentioned
will be in the show notes.
I really appreciate your time.
Thanks so much.
Thank you so much.
This was a lot of fun.
Stars Heather Gunnkopf.
Heather, thanks so much for joining me.
Those who are listening, thanks for being here.
If you're a fan of Heather and just wanted
(45:21):
to hear more about her, glad you're here.
If you're a longtime listener of this podcast,
hope you gained quite a bit from just her journey as an author,
even if you never want to be an author yourself.
Just learning a little bit about that process
and what creates that passion I thought was really cool.
I thought it was really cool just to hear about how
(45:41):
she writes these stories.
She's able to write such intricate stories with so
many different mediums in them and still kind of do it,
I guess, pretty organically.
So I really, really enjoyed speaking with her.
I urge you to check out the books that I have already
read by her, The Overnight Guest,
and Before She Was Found.
(46:02):
She just recently put out Everyone Is Watching.
So check out that one as well.
I know that she'd really, really appreciate that.
If this is your first time listening to this podcast
or you haven't already, go follow along with it
or subscribe on Spotify or Apple.
Leave a five-star rating on Apple and on Spotify.
(46:23):
That helps a ton.
Leave a written review on Apple.
Even more amazing, go follow along on Facebook,
Nottinghamhub with Jackson Huff.
Go follow along on Instagram and TikTok,
Nottinghamhub Podcasts, lots of places to follow along.
Over 250 guests at this point, bound
to be something that the interest you have speak
to so many amazing people.
But we'll see you next week.
Take it away, Chris.
(46:43):
This has been Nottinghamhub with Jackson Huff.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to join us next time, where
we will interview another amazing guest who
is sure to make you laugh or make you think, or, hey, maybe
even both.
But until then, keep being awesome.
I'm like, can you just like lay down in the doorway for me?
(00:04):
I just kind of need you to lay there
so I can kind of visualize to see if the scene will work.
And he's like, am I a dead body?
And I'm like, well.
Welcome to Not in a Huff with Jackson Huff,
where we interview newsmakers, storytellers,
and all around interesting people.
Sit back, relax, unless you're driving, and enjoy the show.
(00:27):
Here's Jackson.
Sit.
Hello, hello, hello.
I am Jackson Huff.
This is Not in a Huff.
Thanks so much for joining me.
As always, we really appreciate it.
This week, speaking with Heather Gudenkopf.
Now, Heather is a bestselling author.
She's written at least 10 books.
She's got a new one that recently came out
that we're going to talk about.
But we're mainly going to talk about the process
(00:49):
of writing mysteries.
I've talked to plenty of authors in the past.
A lot of them have been writing nonfiction,
writing their story, their parents' story,
that kind of thing.
But occasionally, I actually get the honor
of speaking with somebody whose mystery books
that I already read.
I have an extended drive to work each morning.
(01:11):
I like to listen to the audiobooks.
And last week was all about my favorite audiobook, Narrator.
So this week, just another amazing author
that writes mystery books.
And the reason I wanted to have her on,
because she writes them from a lot different perspective
than a lot of people.
There's a lot of authors that maybe write something
(01:33):
from present day.
And then there's a secondary story from 30 years ago.
And they just intertwine.
And eventually, they tie together.
And Heather does that.
The book that I recently read, she did just that.
But it had several different timelines going.
But she wrote a book at one point called
Before She Was Found.
(01:53):
And I read that one probably a year and a half, two years ago.
And that one just really, really amazed me,
because it had several different timelines.
It had different perspectives.
It had you reading the psychiatric journals
of one character, the high school
diary of another, emails, all this.
She was able to make into a cohesive story
(02:14):
to understand where everyone was coming from
and eventually solve a mystery.
And that was a missing little girl
and some battered other children.
And it was quite the story.
I think it takes a lot to be able to come up
with these stories.
But then it takes so much more to be able to, in the book,
have so many different mediums and still make it all make
sense.
So I knew I needed to have Heather on.
(02:37):
I really enjoyed our conversation.
We kind of start with our love of women's basketball.
She is from Iowa.
Of course, that's where the great Caitlin Clark is from.
And I am in Indiana.
So of course, we are reaping the benefits of her talent
now with the fever.
So we'll talk a little bit about that.
But we'll quickly get to just her journey as an author,
(02:59):
how she writes these stories to be cohesive with so
many different things going on.
She gives advice to other authors
should they ever want to put a book out there.
I think you're really going to enjoy this one.
Here is Heather Gudenkopf.
Ms. Gudenkopf, how are you?
I'm good.
Thanks for having me.
Well, thanks for joining me.
Let's, I guess, let you do the heavy lifting to start.
(03:19):
Just introduce yourself.
Yeah, well, I'm Heather Gudenkopf.
I'm the New York Times USA Today bestselling author
of 10 thrillers, including my latest,
which is Everyone Is Watching.
I live in the beautiful state of Iowa with my family
and a very spoiled German short hair pointer named Lolo.
(03:42):
And I'm thrilled to be here with you tonight.
I'm thrilled to have you.
And you've already addressed the thing
that I wanted to talk about first.
You're from Iowa.
A lot of your books are set in Iowa.
I've seen you comment and like some of Caitlin Clark's
messaging.
I'm in Indiana.
I'm wearing my Caitlin Clark jersey for you.
(04:04):
It's my 22 Caitlin Clark jersey.
So I guess I got to thank you as a Hawkeye fan
for giving us Caitlin Clark, right?
Yeah, yeah, she's fantastic.
And I graduated from the University of Iowa.
My three kids graduated from the University of Iowa.
So we bleed black and gold through and through.
(04:26):
And I really have always been a fan of basketball.
And it's just been so much fun to see
Caitlin and her teammates because they
were a phenomenal team.
And to know that she's in Indiana with the fever
and they've taken such good care of her.
And being on the world stage is not easy, I'm sure.
(04:49):
And it's just been so much fun to see
the sport of basketball grow along with Caitlin
and with all the other players.
I am an Indiana fever fan for life.
I do not miss a game.
I love it.
Have you been able to come and watch any games?
No, no, not yet.
And that is on my bucket list for sure.
(05:10):
It would be really a highlight to be able to watch
the fantastic team play for sure.
Yeah, well, this isn't just a podcast about sports.
But if you're ever in Indianapolis,
let us know.
I live 10 minutes from the arena and we go quite frequently.
So it's always a good time for sure.
Absolutely.
I'm on every single one of my birthday list,
(05:34):
my Christmas list, every list I have.
So hopefully we can get there.
One of these.
I like it.
The last thing I'll say about the Hawkeyes
is I had a series in this podcast
where I talked to college athletes in gymnastics
and soccer, basketball, all kinds of different things.
So I reached out to a lot of collegiate athletes.
(05:54):
And a large chunk of them actually came from Iowa.
So you've got friendly athletes.
What I'll tell you though is I'm happy that they're so friendly.
But I did go to IU, so I can't really
say a ton positive otherwise about Iowa.
But we'll leave it there.
I totally understand that.
(06:16):
You've got to be loyal to your team.
I totally get that.
Well, let's actually get back to your writing.
And I want to start at the very beginning.
And I guess what inspired you to be a writer?
Where was that passion first created?
Yeah, for me, for most of my life,
(06:37):
I've loved reading and books.
But it hadn't always been that way.
I was a kid who really struggled with school in the beginning.
I was someone who was always behind.
And school was difficult for me.
And it wasn't until the middle of my first grade year
that it was discovered that I had a profound hearing loss.
(06:59):
And so it started to make sense as to why I was so far behind
my classmates in all areas.
But once that was diagnosed and once I got hearing aids,
it was like the whole world opened up.
And reading just clicked for me.
And from then on, I was a huge fan
(07:22):
and just couldn't get enough of books.
And that has stayed with me my entire life.
But it wasn't really until I, and I've always loved writing.
I'm someone who always had kept journals.
I took, I was a part of this high school newspaper.
In college, I took as many writing classes as I could.
(07:43):
But my path really was as an educator.
And I wanted to be a teacher.
And that's what I did.
So I became an elementary education teacher,
loved every minute of it.
But I also knew I had a story in me to tell.
I knew I wanted to write something.
(08:03):
And I had this idea for a story.
And I'd been teaching for several years at that time.
And was teaching third grade.
And my children were school age.
But I just had this burning need to tell this story.
And so I bought a journal and started
(08:23):
writing a very rough draft of what ultimately became
my first book, The Way to Silence.
And I finished that up over the summer and loved it.
I loved the process of it.
I loved getting lost in the story.
And eventually that book got published.
(08:45):
And I've never looked back.
I love that.
And when you were talking about how,
I guess you wrote a rough, rough draft of your first book.
How did you find your genre?
Or is it something that you have always
enjoyed reading yourself?
Is it something that just kind of poured out of you?
Is it something that you knew other people would like?
(09:06):
A nice little beautiful combination of all of it?
Or how did you kind of pick what you wanted to write?
Yeah.
And when I first started, I didn't really
think so much in genre.
Except that I've always loved mysteries.
That is something in regard to the books that I've read.
And I love all genres.
(09:26):
I'll read anything you put in front of me.
But the idea of a mystery and a puzzle that you have to solve,
I really like that idea.
And so that's kind of where I've landed squarely
in the thriller mystery genre.
And part of that is that putting together the puzzle
pieces for other readers.
(09:48):
Because I enjoy that part of reading so much.
But also, I think in regard to genre,
there's so many crossovers in so many books,
and in many books that I love to explore.
For me, and we talked a little bit about this,
(10:10):
the setting is so important to me.
And that's why I include Iowa in just about every one
of my books, or in every one of my books in some way.
And the landscape, and describing it.
And because for me, I feel like setting
is another character in the book.
And I like to bring the reader into the story
(10:35):
by giving them that setting and describing it,
and helping them to feel like they're right there
with me in the story.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've heard a lot of people,
because I've talked to a lot of authors.
I've heard a lot of them mention that setting
is another character of the book, just like you mentioned.
And I've talked to people who write about the Texas Hill
(10:57):
country, people who write about the deserts of Arizona.
I feel like a lot of people, when they think of Iowa,
they don't necessarily know exactly what the setting is.
So what about the Iowa setting, I guess,
draws you so much into including it in all your books?
Yeah, I think most people come to Iowa
(11:18):
because they have a relative here, if they come.
And it's not really a destination for many people.
And it's often thought of as flat, with lots of corn,
lots of farmland, which is partly true.
But if you get the chance to visit Iowa,
you'll also find that it's got the Mississippi
(11:40):
River on one side, and it's got the Missouri River
on the other.
It's got bluffs and rolling hills, and it has caves.
And it's really a very varied landscape,
and it's very beautiful.
And so I want people to know that.
(12:00):
And on top of that, the people you talked about,
the nice athletes from Iowa, people in Iowa
genuinely are very, very nice, friendly folks.
And I like to work that idea into the stories as well.
But my books are thrillers, so there's
got to be a bad guy here or there,
(12:20):
and some intrigue and suspense that way.
But it's my little way of sharing my part of the world
with others.
Yeah, I don't feel like Iowa's too different from Indiana.
You're only a state away.
We've got the Hoosier Hospitality and the corn
as well.
(12:41):
Our amusement park, their slogan is,
there's more than corn in Indiana.
So of course, we do that too.
But no, I've been to Iowa many times.
I see the beauty in the landscape and the people,
just like you said.
So I like that a lot.
I guess I want to ask you another question when
it comes to the early process.
(13:01):
So again, this isn't a book podcast.
It's not one that I exclusively talk to authors,
but I've talked to a lot.
And it seems like when they're first starting,
they've got kind of two different mindsets
that they really, really want to write something,
but they struggle a lot just to get it all down.
(13:21):
They get it on paper, make it make sense.
And then I have the other side of things
where it's just flowing out of them.
And the hardest part for them was
finding a publisher who wants anything
to do with the reading from a new author.
So what was the hardest part for you?
Was it kind of getting things down and making it make sense,
or was it I had that down just fine,
(13:42):
but then where anybody else would actually look at it?
Yeah.
Well, every book is different, every project.
For my first one, I really had this story almost fully formed
in my head that I wanted to tell.
And it's the way to silence.
It's about two young girls who go into the woods,
and only one comes out and she doesn't talk.
(14:03):
And so it's a mystery surrounding her disappearance
and her family's search for the other little girl.
And the story really just flowed out of me over the summer.
That doesn't mean it was fully and completely and well
done at that point, because there was a lot of revising
that went into it.
(14:24):
But it really did flow quite easily for me.
And the publishing journey is very different for everyone.
For me, I set the manuscript aside
because I was teaching at the time,
and I had to get my classroom ready for the coming school
year.
So I stuck it in a drawer.
(14:44):
I didn't know what to do with it because I
didn't come from a publishing world
in any sense of the word.
But at winter break, I pulled it out again, looked at it,
and I always have told my students,
you need to dream big.
You need to go for it.
Follow your dreams.
And I thought that that counted for me as well.
(15:06):
And so I got a book called The Writer's Market,
which is a listing of all the different literary agencies
and publishers in North America.
And it's updated every year.
And I got the book, and I searched for literary agents
that represented the kind of books I liked.
And I thought I'd start with one.
(15:27):
I sent the first 50 pages off.
And a few weeks later, I had a letter back in the mail
asking to see the rest of the manuscript, which
was incredible to me.
I couldn't believe it.
I sent the rest of the manuscript off to her
and waited and waited and waited because he learned very quickly
(15:47):
in publishing.
Nothing moves quickly.
And I got discouraged.
I thought, well, maybe this isn't going to happen.
But I got the nerve up, and I called.
I called New York, and I said, this is Heather from Iowa.
Like I'm the only Heather in the state of Iowa.
But she figured out who I was and said, yes, I really
enjoyed your story.
(16:07):
And I think we can work together, but it needs work.
And so with this agent, we spent the next year and a half
getting the book into really good shape.
And after that year and a half, we sent it out to publishers.
And that's when the rejection letters started coming in.
So my agent would send out a manuscript or two,
(16:30):
wait for feedback.
And for many months, it was rejections.
And so I get copies of those letters, too,
which keeps you very humble.
But after a year and a half, there
was a publisher that wanted to take me on.
And that's where I've been for all intents
(16:55):
and purposes with that same publishing family
since the beginning, and have really found my home there.
Yeah, I think that just speaks to the strength of your work.
Because a lot of times, I hear the story both ways,
where they can't find an agent.
It takes them a year to find an agent,
and then they finally find an agent,
(17:16):
and then it takes another year to find a publisher.
Sometimes they get dropped by one agent.
So I feel like you, at least you,
you cut it down just a little bit
by having a strong story to begin with, it seems like.
Yeah, I really think the stars aligned for me
for some reason in that sense.
And I've been surrounded by this core
of really, really encouraging, supportive people,
(17:41):
including my agent, my publisher, the editors
I've had along the way, including
the one I've had for my last, gosh, seven books.
And I'm really grateful for that.
Because publishing, for as slow as it moves,
it also changes very quickly.
And people move, and situations change.
(18:03):
So I feel very fortunate to have this kind of solid base
that I can call my home base in regard to my writing family,
I would say.
Yeah, and I want to get to your actual writing
style of your books.
But before we get to that, I want to ask just the process
(18:24):
for you.
You're quite a few books in.
So what does it look like when you're
trying to create a new book?
You do have a publisher.
So obviously, you may be working towards certain deadlines
as well.
But what's that look like?
Are you somebody who subscribes to the theory,
no matter what, I need to write two hours a day?
(18:46):
Or what's it look like for you?
Yeah, so that for me has changed through the years.
When I first started writing, my kids were school age.
And I worked full time in education.
And so I just wrote whenever I could.
And that would look like getting up early, staying up late.
(19:08):
It looked like weekends and summer breaks,
like a lot of writers.
I mean, a lot of writers have second jobs.
And it looked like sitting in the parking lot,
waiting to pick up my kids from some practice or another.
And so I just wrote whenever I could.
And it's been 15 years since my first book was published,
(19:31):
going on 16 now.
And so my kids are grown.
I'm not in the education world anymore
and am able to write full time.
So I have a lot more flexibility with that.
But I find that when I'm in the middle of a writing project,
I need to write in some way every day,
at least have my fingers in the story in some way
(19:53):
to keep the momentum going for me.
And that's my style of writing in the sense
of how I approach a novel has evolved over the years as well.
In the writing world, there are really two types of writers.
And it's kind of a continuum as well.
(20:14):
But we have the plotters who outline their books.
They color code everything.
They have spreadsheets.
And they know where they're going.
When they sit down in front of the computer,
they have this path laid out.
And then we have the pantsers who
are writers that write by the seat of their pants.
(20:34):
And I was squarely in that second group for many years.
I would have an idea for a story.
I'd have some characters.
I would jot down some ideas, a summary.
But then I'd just start writing.
And that has worked for me.
But it's also I've written myself
into many, many tough situations where
(20:55):
I have to pull myself out of and heavy revisions, which
is par for the course for me.
But finally, with this book that will be coming out next year,
I thought, I'm going to try something different.
And so I really plotted it out.
I had the spreadsheet.
I had the outline.
(21:16):
And I really have to admit, I like it.
I like having that roadmap in front of me.
What I didn't want to lose was those moments as a writer
when that aha comes to you.
And you're surprised yourself as you're writing.
(21:36):
And an idea or a thought comes that really sparks the book.
And I was afraid I was going to lose that by scripting
what my day was going to look like.
But I found that those still come.
And I'm glad for that.
So we'll see.
We'll see what people think of my next one, the one
(21:58):
that I've really outlined.
But I have to say, I still do a lot of heavy revisions.
That's just kind of the writer I am.
I describe myself as I write ugly.
And I get everything on the page.
And the good, the bad, the ugly.
And then I go back in and really try
(22:20):
to make something more cohesive out
of this stuff in front of me.
All right, I got you.
And being right by the seat of your pants type of person
is extra impressive that you've done that for so long,
just given your style.
Now, full transparency, I've read two of your books.
(22:40):
I've read, and you have them behind you.
So I appreciate that because it always just leaves my mind.
But I've read before she was found
and I read The Overnight Guest.
Those are the two that I've read.
And both of them, and I believe most of your books
are this way where it follows several different perspectives
(23:01):
and different timelines.
So you've got something present day, 20 years in the past,
that type of thing.
So that makes it even more difficult, I feel like,
just to go by the seat of your pants.
But it sounds like that's what you said that you've done.
So what does that look like?
Do you write one person's full story out and then another?
Or are you truly writing it the way
(23:21):
that people are reading it?
Typically, and it depends.
Every book's a little different.
But typically, I begin where I write it
the way people read it.
So if I have one perspective, a character that starts,
I'll start with a character, go to the next one.
(23:41):
Go to the next one.
So it's kind of like a baton, like in a relay race
that they pass the story on to one another.
I did, though, for The Overnight Guest,
which takes place in present day and two decades earlier,
it's kind of a complex story.
So I thought I would approach that one a little differently.
(24:03):
And it really worked for me.
I decided to write the events that took place 20, 25 years
before, which happened to take place in the summer.
And I wrote those during the summer months,
which we know in the Midwest is always very hot and muggy
and buggy.
And so I focused on a good chunk of the story
that's set in that time frame.
(24:25):
And then when winter came around,
I focused on the winter 20 years later.
It's in the middle of this 100 year blizzard.
And that really worked for me.
I really liked that.
Now, I wasn't able to write the whole story through that way,
but I was able to write to a certain point
and then weave in the winter months.
(24:49):
And it really flowed nicely doing it that way for me.
And so what I found is I guess I really
don't have one approach and that each story is different.
Each story needs to be approached in a different way.
And I have to figure out what that is
as I jump into a new project.
(25:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, and then before she was found, of course,
we only read two.
But if all of your books are that, I guess,
complex between the two of them, then I
mean, that's extra impressive just because from
the reviews that I've read, and I agree with it too,
it takes a lot to be able to write
(25:33):
a book that makes sense with how many different kinds of,
I guess, mediums like before she was found.
It was journal entries.
It was actual, just regular writing.
I think it was even like a psychologist's files.
Like how did you go about that?
Because that's tough to make people understand everything
(25:54):
happening when there's so many different ways
that the information is assimilated.
Yeah, and that before she was found,
which is the story of a group of preteens,
and there's a big mystery surrounding one of them.
Three girls go into a train yard and two come out.
(26:15):
One comes out, but she's gravely injured.
And that story was very loosely based on,
I don't know if you've heard of the Slender Man case, which
was a story out of Wisconsin several years ago,
where two best friends attacked a third friend.
And there was the story about the Slender Man, which
(26:38):
was this online entity that they said encouraged them
to do these terrible things.
Well, this was the kernel of the idea.
And so I knew that it's an adult book,
but I knew by having these younger characters, as well
as their parents, a child psychiatrist, and others,
(27:00):
that I needed to express their thoughts, their feelings
in different modes.
So there is the journal entries of one of the young girls.
There is text messages.
There is online forums.
There is just first person thoughts
of the parents who are grappling with this terrible thing that's
(27:24):
happened in their community.
And I just found it was a really unique, effective way
to tell the story and to help bring the reader along
and seeing all these different perspectives
and the different ways of communicating.
So I really, really enjoy writing that way.
(27:44):
A lot of my books do have those multiple modes,
I guess you would call it.
Another interesting piece about before she was found,
since we're talking about that one,
I knew that I needed to talk to, in regard to research,
a child psychiatrist.
(28:05):
And so I went to the University of Iowa website
and looked through, and I found a random one.
I knew I wanted to talk to a woman.
I emailed her, and I explained the story, the premise,
and that it was very, the glint of the idea
came from this case, the Slender Man case in Wisconsin.
(28:25):
But it's completely different.
I just wanted to know what her life as a child psychiatrist
looked like, what did her day look like, her education,
and that sort of thing.
She got back to me very quickly and said,
you're never going to believe this.
And she said she, as a medical student, a resident,
(28:46):
she worked underneath the forensic psychiatrist who
treated and evaluated the girls in that Slender Man
case in Wisconsin, which to me just
gives me goosebumps every time.
Now, of course, she didn't talk to me about that specific case.
She wasn't involved in it, and she wouldn't talk
about specific cases at all.
(29:07):
But just having that perspective and doing
that kind of research where you talk to people who
are in specific fields to help inform my writing
is really an important part of what I do as well.
Yeah, I would assume that it does take a lot of research
there, and you've already kind of mentioned
(29:29):
with your first book and then the two
that we've talked about.
But how do you generally get your ideas?
Or is it a rip from the headlines type thing?
Is it just something that you wake up
at 3 o'clock in the morning after write down,
or what's that look like?
Yeah, typically I do get a lot of my ideas
from the news, from the newspapers.
(29:51):
And something catches my eye and take it
in a completely different direction.
But that kind of medium with the news
and how timely things are, choosing something
that catches my eye in that way is typically
how I choose the next project.
(30:13):
Are you somebody who is working on one project at a time,
or do you have a lot of balls in the air?
What's that look like?
Typically, I can only do one thing at a time
because I do get so immersed.
And like I said, I'm kind of a messy writer.
So typically, I work on one project at a time.
(30:35):
While I'm working on one book, I do
have a running list of ideas for the next one.
So that's in the back of my mind,
but I don't put a lot of thought into that
until I finish at least a good solid first draft
of my book that I'm currently working on.
Yeah, I can read like four books at a time,
(30:57):
but I cannot write more than one book at a time.
That seems just too invested and involved
in the characters and the story that I'm working on.
Yeah, and this is a question, of course,
you have to ask all mystery writers.
It's a silly question because of course, it's
just the art of doing things and being creative.
(31:18):
But what does your family think about being
able to come up with all these gruesome ideas?
Do they ever look at you sideways?
Yeah, my poor husband, yeah, always, always.
And I'll come up to him and ask him some random questions.
I remember once, the poor guy, I'm like,
can you just lay down in the doorway for me?
(31:39):
I just kind of need you to lay there
so I can kind of visualize to see if the scene will work.
And he's like, am I a dead body?
And I'm like, well.
So they humor me.
And a lot of people who know me are a little surprised
because I like to think of myself
as kind of this soft spoken, quiet kind of person,
(32:02):
and nice and cheerful.
And I do have these dark thoughts that come out
in my writing.
And I often get asked, what kind of childhood did you have?
And I am so pleased to say I had a wonderful childhood.
My parents, I'm the youngest of six.
(32:24):
My parents were wonderful people.
And I like to say that I really grew up
in a household where I could express who I was
and to explore the things that I was interested in.
And they really gave me the confidence
to go ahead and be the writer that I am today.
And so I owe a lot to them.
(32:45):
Yeah, and I always like to ask, too,
it's kind of the last question when
it comes to the pen and paper aspect of your writing,
given I've said it already that this is a book club where
we go into deep plots about an individual book.
Is there any books that you want to kind of highlight
that you want people to check out?
(33:07):
Any books that recently came out?
Any books that you're particularly proud of?
Anything you want to highlight?
Yeah, there's something special about each of my books.
But my most recent book was a lot of fun.
It was a little bit different for me.
Everyone is watching.
And it's the story of five strangers
who are invited to take part in an over the top reality
(33:29):
competition series where the grand prize is $10 million.
And so they travel to this remote location
on a vineyard in wine country.
And as the games begin, the challenges
become more and more dangerous, even deadly.
And as they're playing the games,
(33:51):
some secrets that they had thought
were long kind of hidden and buried
are starting to come to the surface.
And the entire world is watching because the games
are being live streamed across the world.
And so that was really fun to write.
I had to create this reality series from the ground up,
(34:12):
create these characters who all had these dark secrets.
And so it's a very fast paced, fun kind of read.
And one thing while writing that and kind of doing my research.
So my research, and that's in finger quotes,
I watched a lot of reality TV.
So my husband would walk by my office and peek in.
(34:33):
And I'm watching Big Brother or Survivor or something.
And I'm like, it's research.
It counts.
But one of the aspects of the book
is also the audience perspective of who's watching the show.
And I live in the book world.
And so when I'm on social media, it's all the book stuff.
(34:55):
And people are very supportive and happy and talking books.
And it's all very lovely.
But we both know and everybody knows
how the dark side of social media
and how people really get really dragged, I guess,
is the best word.
And I've given a lot of talks about this book
(35:16):
everyone is watching.
And I always do bring up women's basketball.
And Caitlin Clark and her basketball colleagues,
because here are these 20-year-old women playing
basketball.
And that's all they wanted to do.
And all of a sudden, they are thrown into the limelight.
And the comments, the horrid comments
(35:38):
that people are making about looks, about eyelashes,
about the way they play.
And all these young women from all these different teams
want to do is play basketball.
And they have to contend with these armchair warriors
behind the keyboard with a lot to say.
(36:00):
And I really tried to convey that in the book as well.
But yeah, social media, there's a lot of great things about it.
But there's a lot of, there's a dark side to that as well.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a good segue when it comes into opinions
of your books.
(36:20):
Have there been any surprises?
Of course, you pour yourself into all your books.
But have you had any books that you're like, wow,
I'm not really sure about that.
And then it went, people just loved it.
And then obviously, conversely, where you thought,
this is really solid.
And it just didn't do too well.
Have you had any surprises in your career?
(36:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think every time I
see a book, one of my books on a bookshelf
in either a bookstore or a library,
it's just such a thrill.
I never would have thought, like a third grade teacher
from Iowa, so that's always a thrill.
I've had a couple of New York Times bestsellers,
which has been a ton of fun, a nice honor.
(37:02):
But there's been some books that have kind of flown
under the radar that are really special to me.
I'm thinking of Not a Sound, which
is the story of a woman who is deafened in an accident.
And I have always wanted to write a character who
has a hearing loss.
(37:22):
And so I thought long and hard about it,
because writing from the deaf perspective
could be tricky, because I am hearing.
I can hear.
But I wanted to really investigate
and write about this amazing character, Amelia,
who has to navigate life after this profound injury.
(37:48):
And I really love that.
I did a lot of research.
I talked to a lot of readers who are deaf
and who gave me wonderful insights and read the book
and gave their thumbs up, their seal of approval.
And that meant a lot to me as well.
Yeah.
We've got three more questions.
(38:09):
And I think they're relatively complex ones.
So the next one is going to be about audiobooks.
I have somebody who does a podcast
and is really big on the audio side of things.
There's somebody who's interviewed
quite a few of the top audiobook readers out there.
How much thought on your end goes
(38:29):
into the readers of your audiobook?
Because I think that makes or breaks a book.
And I know that some publishers pick it themselves.
Some of them really listen to the authors, which
it looked like for you.
Yeah.
So for me over the years, typically what my publisher
would do was they would send me an audio recording
(38:52):
of a handful of readers.
And then I would listen and see if I
could match what I think would fit the story,
the characters of my book the best.
And that's always a nice feeling for an author
to be involved in those conversations.
And I've been really fortunate with my audiobook readers
(39:14):
over the years.
And a couple of my favorites have read my books.
Julia Whalen, who's a prolific, phenomenal reader,
did Not a Sound and Love Her.
And Britt Presley.
Brittany Presley is another one of my favorites.
And she's done, oh my gosh, my last four or five books
(39:36):
at least.
And so she's really been my go-to over the years,
and the last several books.
So I'm hoping that we can continue that,
because she really seems to capture my characters perfectly.
And there's so many.
And I think you're right.
I always have a book on my e-reader.
I always have the physical book on my bedside table.
(40:01):
And I always have an audiobook going.
And it's just so great to get lost in the story
and have this narrator just really fully embody
the characters of a book.
There's nothing like it.
It's so much fun.
Absolutely.
I agree 100%.
So the hardest question that I've got for you is just about,
(40:26):
and when I talk to authors that have had success, that have
those New York Times bestselling books,
they have the luxury of stepping back and looking
at the industry as a whole.
And I've talked to some people who
have been New York Times bestselling authors
for 30 plus years.
And we always talk a little bit about the world of publishing.
(40:48):
And a lot of them at this point have said,
I've got the fan base.
Thank God I have the fan base now
where I don't have to play the game.
I don't have to worry about deadlines.
And I don't have to worry about making sure
the publisher loves things.
And a lot of people with the advent of Amazon
has taken things into their own hand at this point.
(41:09):
So how do you feel about the world of publishing
at the moment?
Do you feel like that traditional model
of taking years for people to be discovered still works?
Or do you think that it's going by the wayside?
Yeah, I think you're right.
Publishing has changed a ton.
(41:30):
Even in when I started querying, so 18 years ago,
to being published for 15 years, it's changed a ton.
What I really love now is there are so many different ways
for people to get published, like you mentioned.
So people are able to find what works best for them
and what's right for them.
(41:51):
And never can it be said that less books is better.
So the more that we can get people's work out there
in whatever format and whatever way,
the better because that means more people are reading
and there's more access to books and literature.
I've been very fortunate that traditional publishing,
(42:12):
I found what has worked for me so far.
And as I mentioned, I have this kind
of core group of supporters around me
that help make that happen.
And I have a really close relationship with my agent
and with my editor and the team there,
which is really special.
(42:33):
But I also know enough about publishing
that that may not last forever because things
change so quickly.
So I'm really embracing that now and enjoying every moment
I have that I get to do this job that I love.
I've been so fortunate in my life
that I've been able to do two things I love.
I've been a teacher and I write.
(42:53):
And so whatever happens in my writing career
and who I publish with, I think I will always be a writer.
And I will always try and find a way to get those words down
and share them with others, whatever that might look like.
(43:13):
I love that.
I'm sure you can't get through an interview without how
often I answer this question.
But for those who are interested in writing,
what advice do you have for people starting out?
Yeah, my best advice, and I say this every time,
just sit down and write.
Don't let the outside world come in.
(43:34):
Just write the story that you would like to read
or whatever it is you're interested in.
Just write it.
And worry.
Don't edit yourself.
Don't be critical of what you get down.
Just get it down on paper.
That's the hardest part.
And then you get the opportunity and always go back
(43:54):
and make the changes and fix it.
But write the story that you want to read.
And you'll be amazed at how the pages start piling up.
I love that.
How can people catch your books?
How can they follow along with you?
Yeah, so you can find me at HeatherGunnkopf.com.
(44:16):
I am on social media.
I'm on Facebook and on Instagram.
I'm on TikTok a little bit, on threads a little bit.
I also do a really fun interview series
with two other thriller authors called The Killer Author Club.
And we interview every other week
these fantastic thriller writers throughout the world,
(44:39):
world-wide known thriller writers.
And we have so much fun with that.
You can find us at KillerAuthorClub.com,
on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube.
It's really been a really fun experience
to be able to chat with fellow writers in that way.
So yeah, so come find me.
(45:00):
And I love to catch up with readers and connect with them.
Absolutely.
I urge people to do that.
All the links to the things that you mentioned
will be in the show notes.
I really appreciate your time.
Thanks so much.
Thank you so much.
This was a lot of fun.
Stars Heather Gunnkopf.
Heather, thanks so much for joining me.
Those who are listening, thanks for being here.
If you're a fan of Heather and just wanted
(45:21):
to hear more about her, glad you're here.
If you're a longtime listener of this podcast,
hope you gained quite a bit from just her journey as an author,
even if you never want to be an author yourself.
Just learning a little bit about that process
and what creates that passion I thought was really cool.
I thought it was really cool just to hear about how
(45:41):
she writes these stories.
She's able to write such intricate stories with so
many different mediums in them and still kind of do it,
I guess, pretty organically.
So I really, really enjoyed speaking with her.
I urge you to check out the books that I have already
read by her, The Overnight Guest,
and Before She Was Found.
(46:02):
She just recently put out Everyone Is Watching.
So check out that one as well.
I know that she'd really, really appreciate that.
If this is your first time listening to this podcast
or you haven't already, go follow along with it
or subscribe on Spotify or Apple.
Leave a five-star rating on Apple and on Spotify.
(46:23):
That helps a ton.
Leave a written review on Apple.
Even more amazing, go follow along on Facebook,
Nottinghamhub with Jackson Huff.
Go follow along on Instagram and TikTok,
Nottinghamhub Podcasts, lots of places to follow along.
Over 250 guests at this point, bound
to be something that the interest you have speak
to so many amazing people.
But we'll see you next week.
Take it away, Chris.
(46:43):
This has been Nottinghamhub with Jackson Huff.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to join us next time, where
we will interview another amazing guest who
is sure to make you laugh or make you think, or, hey, maybe
even both.
But until then, keep being awesome.
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