#233- Joel & Karmela Waldman: Surviving the Survivor | Humor and Strength Through the Darkness - Not in a Huff with Jackson Huff

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Jackson, we gotta be the weirdest couple.

(00:02):
No, don't feel so bad.
Don't feel so bad.
Are we the oddest couple that you've ever had on the show
in the three episodes?
Jackson.
Welcome to Not in a Hoff with Jackson Hoff,
where we interview newsmakers, storytellers,
and all around interesting people.
Sit back, relax, unless you're driving, and enjoy the show.

(00:25):
Here's Jackson.
Hello, hello, hello.
I'm Jackson Huff.
This is Not in a Hoff.
Thanks so much for joining me.
As always, really appreciate it.
This week, oh my goodness, you are in for a treat.
I am speaking with Joel and Carmela Waldman.
I don't even know how to describe this conversation.
I'll tell you, they wrote a book together.

(00:47):
Joel is the son and Carmela is the mother.
And they wrote a book called Surviving the Survivor.
It's all about Carmela's story.
She is a Holocaust survivor.
She was born in Eastern Europe during that time.
She's a child survivor.
The book talks a little bit about the really sad parts

(01:09):
of that time.
Her father and several other people in her family
were taken to concentration camps and did perish.
But the book is only about 20% that.
The rest of it is about just their relationship and life
advice from Carmela, who Joel affectionately calls Carm.
The book is a happy book, but it's

(01:32):
about the Holocaust and what Carmela took from it
and what she spent the rest of her life as
because of that experience.
She is now 86 years old.
So I say this is a fun one.
This is an interesting one.
And it certainly is because Joel and Carmela,
their relationship is an extremely unique one.

(01:55):
That's what I'll say.
I had them both on.
They live about 10 miles apart, but they
were in separate places when I spoke with them.
Just the banter they have, ribbing and I guess bickering
that they do, it's funny.
I can't say much better than that, that it's really funny.
So we're going to talk about the book.

(02:15):
We're going to talk about what made them decide
to write the book.
And I say them.
Joel is really the one that wrote it.
There's a joke about how Carmela gets a lot of the credit
and she signs all the books, but Joel
is the one that wrote the book.
We're going to talk a lot about the book.
And then we're going to talk about their podcast.
Their podcast, hard to remember.
The book's called Surviving the Survivor.
The podcast is called Surviving the Survivor.

(02:37):
So easy to remember.
They're both called the same thing.
It started out kind of just as a podcast with the two of them
kind of that they're banter and then
interviewing interesting people.
I like this podcast.
But then it kind of morphed into a true crime daily show
that Joel does on YouTube.
You very well may be familiar with Surviving the Survivor

(03:00):
on YouTube.
It gets 200,000 listens a day or more.
So it's certainly a really powerful thing
where they advocate for victims and talk to people there.
Their tagline's actually the best guest in true crime.
They've talked to a lot of really, really impactful
people.
Carmela's kind of stepped back a little bit

(03:21):
now that it's turned into a true crime podcast.
She's certainly not on every day.
There's not a lot I can say about this other than you just
need to listen to this interview.
Joel makes a joke that my listeners are going
to think that they're crazy.
And he even asked them to email him
about just how crazy they are.
I'm going to tell you, please do not email them
and tell them that they're crazy.

(03:41):
These people are amazing.
I really, really enjoyed speaking with them.
And I know my listeners are nice people.
And I know they're not going to feel that way.
Because it's amazing.
It's a really, really awesome conversation.
But you just have to listen.
Here's Joel and Carmela Waldman.
Joel and Carmela Waldman, how are you guys?
Good day.

(04:02):
Doing very well.
Thank you for having us on.
I apologize in advance for the train wreck that
is about to be your show, not because of you,
but because of my beloved mother and I.
I don't want to complain right out of the gates,
but it's been a long, torturous day,
as many of my days are.
I just finished my own podcast, which

(04:23):
is called Surviving the Survivor.
It is a weekly live true crime show.
I'm kind of like the Larry King of true crime.
We have the tagline, it's best guess in true crime.
We truly do have the best guess.
However, the reason I bring it all up right away
before you even ask about it, I just finished a podcast.
One of my kids has COVID.

(04:44):
I have three children.
And now I had to deal with my mother
trying to get on to Zoom, which basically almost
was the end of me.
But anyway, I digress, and I apologize
for hijacking the show so early on.
Jackson, thank you very much for having us.
Well, we're going to unpack most of that.
I did get to listen to briefly your live show earlier.

(05:10):
I didn't listen to the whole thing,
but I got to listen to kind of hear you do your thing.
So you've been doing a lot more today than I have.
So I'm sure you're tired.
I'm a little worn out.
I'm a little worn out.
And the person who has no mercy is my mother.
Second person who has no mercy is my wife.
And the three others who have no mercy are my kids.

(05:30):
So it's sort of a lonely existence.
Well, I'll try to have as much mercy as possible.
Jackson, you want to hear how I am?
I absolutely do.
Please do.
Tell us.
I am great.
I have no complaints, and everything is good.
Now, I don't want to stereotype, but Jackson

(05:53):
is literally an Indiana.
That is the epitome of the Midwest, well-mannered,
handsome, clean-cut Indiana University graduate,
Indiana Pacers fan.
Carm, you know what's the word Pacers are?
May I say something?
I lived in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois for a while.

(06:18):
Yeah, well, I'm in Indianapolis.
I mean, that's just a couple hours away.
Is that an attenuating circumstance?
Say it again.
Is it like an excuse for me to say,
I know how it is in those parts of the country
because I live there?
No, it's just finding common ground, right?

(06:39):
Yes.
Yeah, Carm, my point with bringing up Jackson
being in the Midwest is he's definitely not
going to be used to, I don't know,
the obnoxious level of New Jersey New Yorkers and now
Miami Indians.
Let's let Jackson.
I am going to behave very well.

(07:00):
Yeah.
Well, I'll tell you, I mean, I've
listened to you guys on other podcasts,
so I do know a little bit what to expect.
But I don't think that I'm going to,
I guess, as green behind the ears as you think,
just because in a different way, and it is a very different way,
my grandmother is actually from the same area.

(07:23):
She's from Germany.
So I'm used to that very bluntness.
So I've got it down, Pat.
She moved here in, what, 1949.
So I actually had her on for my 100th episode.
That's almost 200 episodes ago.
But we talked about her experience
during the same time period.

(07:43):
Obviously, a very different experience.
She grew up as a German citizen and kind of that world
and not knowing too much of what was happening,
but knowing that people were starting to disappear.
So it's a really special episode to me just because she now
has dementia.

(08:03):
So she wouldn't be able to do that episode anymore.
But no.
I say that to say I grew up with the same kind of bluntness.
So I'm here for it.
Sorry to be loud about the dimension.
May I ask, Jackson, what year was she born?
Yeah, that's a good question.
I believe she was born in 1941.
OK, so.
Carm's got her beat by two years.

(08:24):
Carm's not shocked by her age.
I was born in 1939.
1939.
And yeah, I mean, Jackson, I don't know if everyone knows,
but my mom is a child Holocaust survivor.
She's four and a half when it all happened,
at least in her part of the year.
She's from the former Yugoslavia, now known as Serbia.

(08:48):
And I think one of the reasons you have us on,
we've got the True Crime podcast that's doing very well,
thank God.
And then I had the, because of the success of the podcast,
I was asked or given the opportunity
to write a book under the same name, Surviving the Survivor.
And that book is about my dear mother.

(09:11):
It's like 20% her Holocaust story and 80% her cursing at me
and giving life advice.
And if you've heard of Tuesdays with Maury,
it's similar to that, but much more dysfunctional.
And it's got a blurb from Mitch Album himself.
So it's an interesting read.

(09:32):
I want you to kind of- Let him run the show, Joel.
Please.
It's very hard for Joel.
You know how people get their professional deviation?
And after a while, they can't.
When Joel goes as a guest on somebody else's podcast,
he interviews them.
He runs the show.
Don't let it happen, Jackson.
I actually want to interview Jackson.

(09:53):
Jackson, is this a full-time gig?
Or what's the nine to five, if I may ask?
It is not a full-time gig.
My regular job is I work in the administration of a university.
So I'm in admissions and advising.
So I spend my evenings talking to people
about their lives and problems.
And I spend my days talking to people

(10:15):
about their lives and their problems,
just in a different way.
We have the most problems and a lot of life, unfortunately.
No.
And like I was telling you beforehand,
I've talked to a lot of people.
And honestly, when guests come in
with knowing what they want to say,
it makes it a lot easier for me.
I mean, my goal is to share an interesting story.

(10:36):
And if you want to share it without me having
to pull it all out of you, I'm never upset about that.
But I do want to kind of go in a little bit more into the book,
just because obviously that's what we're going to talk about.
But I know that the idea, this could be a headline
without going into much detail.
But the idea came from Carole Baskins, is that right?

(10:58):
That's pretty crazy.
Yeah, it's kind of true in a bizarre way.
So growing up, I obviously knew my mom was attached in some way
to the Holocaust.
I remember now, I never talked about this
on any previous podcast, but I was probably like 11 or 12.

(11:20):
And we were down at the Jersey Shore.
And I remember the documentary, Shoah,
came out, which is like a 10-part documentary.
Each episode is like three hours.
Remember that, Carm?
And something like Saltzman or something.
All I remember is French.

(11:40):
I think it was French.
My dad, who's no longer with us, but always in our hearts,
and may he rest in peace, he dragged me
to this movie theater.
I was, again, like maybe 10 or 11.
And it's literally like a 40-hour documentary
about the Holocaust.
So you see it in different episodes.

(12:03):
But the reason I'm telling that story is I kind of
knew my mom had a connection.
We had a picture of a nun in our house growing up.
My mom has a funny accent.
My dad, by the way, is from born in Brooklyn,
raised in the Bronx, and met my mom
when he was a medical student in Geneva,
where my mom was an undergrad.
But I was in broadcast news.

(12:27):
My last job was the national correspondent at Fox News,
based out of DC.
And I wanted to document my mother's story.
And I'd always been sort of lazy about it.
And in 1999, I had a weird summer job
where I was working for the Michael Moore, who
I'm not a giant.
His work is great.
I'm not a giant fan of his, but that's another story.

(12:49):
I won his ping pong tournament.
He took my trophy back after he gave it to me
because he needed it for the next season of his show,
which I thought was awful.
But that's a whole other story.
And so back then, Michael Moore did say to me,
he knew about my mom.
He said, you should go document it.
And in 1999, I did.
I traveled to Europe, where my grandmother lived.

(13:10):
And I traveled to Israel and interviewed my mom's family,
her good friends.
And it all lives on YouTube.
But then I got caught up in my career.
And then the pandemic hit.
I had left Fox News.
And I pitched this idea to have this podcast.
We didn't start in true crime.
And so I pitched the idea.

(13:33):
And lo and behold, we had interesting guests on,
just like you.
And one of them was Carole Baskin of Tiger King fame,
of which Carmella was referring to it as the Lion King, which
she was not doing intentionally, but Carole Baskin
thought was hilarious.
And lo and behold, Carole Baskin said,
your mother is like my beloved tiger's.
She's an endangered species.

(13:54):
And that really stuck with me.
And that kind of compelled me and propelled
me to write this book.
So that's the genesis of it.
No, and I guess I want to ask you, in writing that book,
was it kind of being able to put down on paper the story?

(14:14):
Or did you learn a lot?
Just because I've interviewed quite a few people who've
written books on the Holocaust, about their grandmothers,
about their parents, but never anybody who actually
was involved, other than my grandmother,
from a very different perspective.
But they almost all have the same story

(14:34):
when it comes to once they decided to write the story,
that's when they learned everything.
Whether their parents had passed away
and they finally were able to read their journals,
they never talked about it growing up,
or whether they had to basically beg their grandparents
to actually speak about it.
So was this something that you grew up kind of knowing?
Or was it something that you learned

(14:56):
through writing this book mostly?
Yeah, first of all, I'd get nervous if my mom's quiet
for more than a minute.
But I knew bits and pieces.
I had a fragmented understanding.
I'll give you an example.
We argue about this, but I'm sure at one point,
so my mother's hometown is a place called Subotica

(15:18):
in the former Yugoslavia, now Serbia.
And in that town, and at the end of the book,
I actually go with my mother in real life.
We go back to Serbia and I bring my wife and my kids.
So then we've got three generations there.
And my grandfather, my mother's father,
he was gas Nash with so there's no remains of him.

(15:41):
He was then incinerated in an oven.
So his name is just on a headstone
in a cemetery in the middle of nowhere
in the former Yugoslavia.
But I remember a story.
My mom said, and there's a synagogue there,
which is, I believe, the second largest synagogue in Europe.

(16:02):
And it's declared a historic landmark.
It's unbelievably beautiful.
It's hard to describe.
It looks like a gingerbread house.
It doesn't look like a synagogue you'd see in America.
And long story short, I remember my mom telling me one time,
before the war, there was 8,000 people in my town.
And after the war,
that the-
5,000.
So see, the numbers like change.

(16:23):
Like she said 8,080 after the war.
Now my mom will say-
No, you made up to 8,000.
Say that again, Korn.
You made up to 8,000.
So that's like an example, like where things,
it's kind of like a game of telephone.
There was another point that I was just gonna make,

(16:43):
but I am-
Did they shave my hair?
Oh, how did you?
Look, she had mother-
So another story was, so my mother was saved,
and we can get into this if you'd like.
She was saved by a non-Jewish,
otherwise known as a righteous Gentile, a doctor,
whose name was Dr. Ivo Scherzer.

(17:04):
I had no idea what his name was until I wrote the book.
And he took my mom with my grandmother's permission
to a Catholic school for boys.
And there, there was a nun whose name was Matilda Gorjanić.
And in my childhood, I grew up with a picture of her.
I had no idea who she was, never knew her name.

(17:24):
So when I wrote the book, I learned all these things.
Yeah, I guess I wanna ask you, Kamela,
when I asked him about just learning about
your story through the book, what was it like for you?
I know that the book was just 20% your story growing up,

(17:44):
and the rest is life lessons,
but what was it like for you to have, Joel,
want to share this all, your story,
and then also your words of wisdom, so to speak?
It was the most unbelievable feeling.
It was the best.
And Joel half seriously, half jokingly says

(18:08):
that I am not grateful enough that he wrote the book,
but I am extremely grateful that he wrote the book
because it's just a wonderful feeling.
It's sort of almost like,
I don't want to be too dramatic,
but in a certain way validates my existence

(18:31):
on a certain level, on a certain level.
On some other levels, I was blessed with eight grandchildren.
I have only two children, but I have eight grandchildren.
So I was blessed by my eight grandchildren,
then I have two.
I gave you the only male grandson.
Yes, and Joel does a lot for me.

(18:54):
My other child is a daughter.
She was the first born,
and she had five daughters, my daughter.
And Joel is unbelievably proud that he had the only boy.
Your daughter's missing in action
while I take care of you in your golden years, Carm.

(19:16):
My daughter lives in New Jersey.
She's a wonderful, caring, very good person,
but she's not here in Miami, and Joel is here in Miami.
And my three little grandchildren,
Joel's children are here in Miami.
But you know what?
Can I just digress for a minute?

(19:37):
Sure, absolutely.
So, lately there is a lot of demand for survivors
because there are so few of us,
and the ones that are still alive
are all children survivors, hidden children,

(19:58):
not any of those that went through the concentration camps
and had their numbers tattooed or something like that.
They were all children at that time.
I was also not even five-year-old
when I was unexpectedly without any psychological preparation,

(20:21):
I was just thrust into this nunnery one night,
and it came very suddenly because my mother
brought me over there,
and she didn't know in the morning
that that's where she was going to bring me,
so she couldn't prepare me psychologically
where I was going.

(20:42):
So all that was sudden.
And then here is the digression.
For some strange reason,
somebody contacted us from the World War II
Memorial Museum in New Orleans.

(21:04):
I didn't even know that there was such a museum
in New Orleans.
There is a museum of World War II in New Orleans,
and they literally sent somebody to my apartment
where I'm sitting now,
and they interviewed me.
And just the other day,

(21:25):
the young woman who interviewed me
sent me a copy of the interview.
Now, I did these interviews.
I'm not going to exaggerate.
I'm not going to throw out a very,
it's nothing like you 300 times,
because until very recently, I didn't do this.
It's only in the last few years that I do this,

(21:47):
talk to schools and talk to people
about what happened to me.
So this young woman sent me a copy of what she was.
I'm going to get to the point that I tried to make.
Not soon, but I'll get to it.
So she interviewed me for maybe an hour and a half,
interviewed me for maybe an hour and a half.

(22:11):
Okay?
And in the very, very end of the interview,
she asked me if I want to add anything else
to the interview.
And somehow, I don't know what inspired me.
I never said that before ever like that.
I said, yes, I would like to say

(22:33):
that what happened between 1941 and 1945 in my life,
it did not stop in 1945.
It had, it has, I'm now 85.
I was 85 in August, so we are now in February.

(22:55):
So you do the math.
I'm 85 and a half.
And this World War II tragedy
has had an impact on me as a person
and on my psyche all this time, all this time, nonstop.

(23:16):
And it probably changed my life
because of, you know, I would have lived
a different type of a life otherwise.
But not only that it did it to me,
but I think it did it to my son and daughter, my children.

(23:37):
And he did it to my grandchildren.
And my great grandchildren are too small,
but definitely my grandchildren are 28, 29, 30.
And you can see the impact it had on them.
And I wasn't one of these,
sad sack, bring them down and miserable person,

(24:00):
but just my knowing what I went through
and what we all went through at that time
had an impact on them.
So actually the Holocaust is still having its impact on us.
That was my point.
Well, we learn in true crime
that there's no such thing as closure.
You know, it's part of the fabric of who you are.

(24:22):
And I gotta say two things.
Number one, Jackson is an incredible interviewer
because he really listens.
He does not interrupt like me.
I'm very impressed.
He's actually listening,
which I always tell everyone's the most important trait.
And the second thing that I was gonna bring up,
Carm once again has slipped my mind.

(24:44):
I'm wondering if I am losing my mind
or you have perfect recall, Carm.
You're totally losing it.
You know what, John, it could be that it's a catchy thing,
the senior moment.
Oh yeah, yeah, I know what I was gonna say.
So, I mean, Jackson, one of the things that I learned
is that there is like generational trauma.

(25:05):
I mean, I am definitely much more anxious
than a normal individual.
I've definitely got elements of like OCD
and I'm not blaming it on my mother.
It's just like when you are literally in a coma,
when you are literally running from the Nazis
and hiding in a school.
My mother by nature, because of that experience,

(25:28):
is very paranoid.
And I will give you a perfect example
to illustrate what I am talking about.
Over the last two months, I've had a neck issue.
I'm only, I'm 55 and I should not be having neck issues
or memory issues.
And on my podcast, I consider it a family.
So I like to get advice and that people are giving me advice.

(25:48):
So long story short, I go to an orthopedist here in Miami
and Miami doctors can be shady and I didn't like this guy.
Lo and behold, it's called Jewish Geography.
Carm tells me that her friend in the building,
who's actually a relative's son, and she's like 90,
so the son is like 60, he's an orthopedist.
Fast forward, I go to him and he's great.

(26:12):
And he's like, you gotta go see this other person.
I got the MRI, I want you to go see a pain specialist.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
The options are physical therapy or getting an injection
or both into my neck.
And Carm told me, and I quote,
Joel, if you get that injection

(26:33):
and you become a quadriplegic
and you have to move yourself around
by blowing into a contraption,
I will never take care of you.
I will never help you.
It will be self-destructive.
You will be an idiot.
That's pretty much what she said.
By the way, I recorded every conversation in our book.
So there are a lot of expletives, not from me.

(26:54):
My mother curses a lot.
My children have learned most of their curse words from her.
But I'm making light of something
that I'm kinda trying to make a serious point about
is now that she told me I could be a quadriplegic,
I mean, I'm a 55-year-old man,
and now I'm second guessing, like, do I get this shot?
She's a very powerful influence in my life,

(27:14):
and she's a very paranoid person.
She's also an amazing mother,
and incredibly smart, incredibly loving.
She's also incredibly tough on me.
She expects a lot, and no matter what I do,
I'm, you know, like, seeking her, like, recognition,
and, you know, she was joking about, you know,

(27:38):
me wanting more adulation for the book.
But it all stems from, I think,
her experience in the Holocaust.
Like, my dad was a super mellow guy,
and I think that, although, dad had anxiety.
But I think a lot of this anxiety-
I don't think, I, Jackson, why cannot I see Jackson?
Somehow your face is covered by the-

(28:02):
He's completely clear, Carm.
Not to me.
It's called a microphone that he's speaking into,
but we, like, Carm, go ahead.
The sound is very clear,
but his face is not visible to me.
She's hard on Jackson, too.
See, Jackson, it's not just you.
No, Jackson, may I say something?
It's like, I think the taping is right above it.

(28:24):
It may be if I said, okay, this meeting is being recorded,
and if I put okay, maybe it will go away.
Oh, boy.
Here we go.
Tech savvy, Carm.
Carm, I'm getting you. Oh, yes.
Wow, it happened.
I can see you now.
No, but I think the examples that Joel brought up
are not the ones I referred to when I was talking

(28:45):
to the World War II museum interviewer.
I think, very frankly, the paranoia, which is true,
I say I'm paranoid on the edges.
You know, it didn't stop me from living my life
and functioning in the world and so forth,

(29:06):
but I never trust anything 100%.
So I'm not proud of it, but this is how it is.
Now, being Jewish is not exactly totally, totally easy,
especially lately.
Besides the Holocaust, I'm talking about,

(29:28):
in addition to the Holocaust, what's going on.
You know, my son's children go to a Jewish school,
and I went there because of a little some celebration,
and there are three police, not policemen,
three guards with flak jackets and machine guns.

(29:52):
And I'm not exaggerating.
This is how it is in Miami Beach, Florida.
Yeah, by the way, my daughter just asked why Kanye West.
She's almost 11, she's almost.
No, the middle one.
She asked why Kanye West hates Jews,

(30:12):
and she said something like,
why can't they just be nice and we'll be nice back?
So, you know, it's coming from a nine-year-old.
So yay, if you're listening, and I know you do.
Yeah, he watches your podcast, I'm sure.
Jackson, I apologize, we've just,
Jackson has said like three words.
I knew this was gonna happen.
No, no, no, it's great.

(30:34):
You know, I don't, just like you were mentioning earlier,
I don't really have an ego with this podcast.
If what needs to be said is said,
then I'm fine with not talking too much,
because oddly, my next two questions were about
how that time has shaped your life, Carmela,
and how it has shaped the next generation.

(30:54):
So you actually answered my next question
without me having to ask it.
So that's kind of how that, it's funny how that works.
But I wanna ask the next question,
because it's almost funny that it's here,
because I wasn't exactly sure how this interview would go,
because I wanted to ask you guys about
just the unique relationship that you guys have,

(31:16):
and kind of the ribbing that you have.
I thought I would have to ask that
to get a little bit out of you,
but it started from the beginning.
So I don't, it's almost a silly question to ask now,
but I want you to talk a little bit.
Yeah, I want you guys to talk
just a little bit about that relationship,
because obviously, there's a lot to it,
but it also just comes across to probably the public

(31:39):
is kind of, I mean, obviously a little bit
of a humorous thing.
It's kind of fun to listen to.
Yeah, they probably think we're insane, but I mean.
I don't think we do it.
Carmela, let me say my two cents,
and then I'll let you jump in a long time.
So people accused us when we first started our podcast

(32:00):
of it being shtick, which is like a Yiddish word for made up.
If you had a camera on us, it is a thousand times worse
when we're not on camera.
We actually are,
because that's when Carmela starts hurling like.
No, like we have a new rule
that I established very, very recently.
Harm drops, F-bombs, like Joe Rogan.

(32:21):
I established a new rule very recently.
For some reason, Joel, who is between you and me,
you unbelievably creative and a very good writer
and talented in this area,

(32:42):
loves to complain to me.
Don't ask me, we never were psychoanalyzed or.
We're not a normal, no mother and son should be.
So anyway, so I established a new rule
that after 9 p.m., he cannot complain.
So in 8.51, he said something like,
I forget that sounded like he was going to complain

(33:03):
about something I said, speak fast,
because you have only nine minutes
to complain before nine o'clock.
That's how I'm gonna, if I go before you, Carmela,
I'll be remembered as a complainer.
Never, you're gonna be remembered as a creative,
great, very loving, great son.
We're really, it's a sad like admission right now,

(33:27):
but we really are not normal.
I mean, truly, we are not normal.
We're like, I think we're good people
and we're well intentioned,
but I don't think any mother and son
should have this sort of relationship.
There's a little more context.
My mother did lose, and I write about this in the book,
a child when he was young, he was two years older than me.

(33:52):
And in the writing of this book,
she loses my father, her husband,
and we argue about what's more important,
a husband or a father,
but she was married to him for 63 years.
So the book, and my mom, I say this,
I got to see her survive in real time.
And when I asked her, when you ask her,
she'll tell you that the hardest thing in her life

(34:12):
has been the loss of my dad.
It wasn't the Holocaust, it wasn't the loss of the son.
I was married to him for 63.
But Carm goes to the other extreme.
Like she doesn't wanna be a victim.
So like I had literally never been to my brother's cemetery,
either it is she since probably 1972.

(34:33):
A lot of parents, they can't explain it.
They can't understand that.
Let me, you don't have to understand it,
but I want to say where I'm coming from.
My father was taken when I was almost,
like one month before my fifth birthday,
he was taken on a train to, I don't know if you heard of,

(34:57):
you probably did Auschwitz,
the concentration camp in Poland, and he was gassed, okay?
Killed.
This guy is an Indiana University graduate.
One of the best schools in the country,
he's heard of Auschwitz.
Okay, I am not talking down to you,
but I don't know how much, you know.
Well, it is sad, because I mean, Jackton is
substantially younger than you and I,

(35:18):
and the new generation, I don't know.
He's sophisticated.
But Carm, go ahead, why?
Anyway, anyway, so he never had a grave.
Then I moved from Yugoslavia to Switzerland.
I didn't have any of my relatives' graves.
I wasn't used to, there is a Jewish tradition

(35:39):
to go every year before the Jewish New Year
to go to the cemetery.
I had no tradition like that.
I don't, even here now, my husband is buried in New Jersey,
and I have zero feeling that if I go there,
I'm closer to him than if I'm sitting
in my apartment in Miami, or that I'm further.

(36:01):
For me, going to the grave is an alien thing,
a strange and alien thing.
Now, I have a half sister, and she goes to the cemetery
like there is no tomorrow.
She already had a father and a mother,
and they were all in the same place,
and she feels, you know, she's a very emotional person.

(36:24):
She feels very close, and she's very happy there.
I don't wanna get super morbid,
but it was at my dad's funeral where he was buried.
All right, okay, Joel, this is where Carm sees it.
She doesn't like to be vulnerable,
so I do this part, I kind of do on purpose.
So, my brother, whose name was Abraham,
and they called him Rami for short,

(36:46):
he doesn't have like a headstone that stands up.
It's embedded into the ground.
It's like literally on top of the grass, like screwed in.
It doesn't stand up.
And when my father was buried, I didn't even know.
I said, is he buried here too, meaning my brother?
And I am not joking when I say,

(37:06):
within 10 seconds of that question,
I was physically standing on his headstone
because it was right next to my dad.
It was very weird, and I'd never seen,
I have pictures of it, I'd never seen it.
This is sort of the level of,
this is what Carm has to do to survive.

(37:27):
She, you know, she just never dwells.
I pretty much just dwell on the negative, she never does.
Interesting, I don't know why it's interesting.
No, I never dwell.
If I can help it, I don't dwell on the negative.
You know, to be 85 and dwell on the negative,
that's a difficult little baggage to carry, you know, at 85.

(37:54):
And all around me, people literally,
I'm not exaggerating, two women that I have been pretty close
to both of their husbands are literally dying.
And-
We like to lift everybody up.
We talk true crime and the Holocaust, death.
No, but I'm saying to you that I cannot go there.

(38:17):
I'm not going there.
Tomorrow night, I have tickets to go to a standup comic.
I should have been in therapy from the age of two.
What do you mean?
You're going to see a standup comic tomorrow?
Tomorrow.
She's not happy. Who are you talking to?
She's from Kentucky and she's at the JCC.

(38:37):
What's her name?
Alia something, I don't know.
I have it written here.
I'm taking you to a comedy show on Monday night, by the way.
I'm really looking forward to it.
Too bad you didn't tell me before
so I could be happy for a longer time.
Yeah, there you go.
There you go.
Too bad you didn't tell before.
Yeah, no, but he mentioned that we are going,

(38:59):
but he didn't give me the date.
Jackson, we got to be the weirdest couple.
No, don't feel so bad.
Don't feel so bad.
Are we the oddest couple that you've ever had
on the show in the 300 episodes?
Jackson, I was a quote therapist.
I have a master's in social work and additional courses.
And my husband was a psychiatrist.

(39:22):
We had two offices and the joint waiting room.
And I heard more stories that you heard.
You know what I mean?
More than 300 stories.
I'm sure.
And sometimes when people were suicidal and so forth,
it wasn't fun, but I lived through it.

(39:46):
I had this gift.
A person would come in and tell me a horrible story
for like 50 minutes.
And then the next person who comes in,
I would manage to push that person out of my thoughts
and concentrate on the new person who walked in.

(40:07):
So that was like a-
By the way, it was like 20 years later that I found out
that like 90% of their patients were my friend's parents
in town.
We came from a small town.
So that was even more interesting.
But that's the other thing.
I also, I grew up the son of a psychiatrist.
Everyone says, oh, you must be crazy.
And then I'm like, well, my mom's also a Holocaust survivor.
And they were like, oh, there was no hope for you.

(40:28):
Yeah, like he's beyond the pale.
By the way, I'm working on a second book with Karm
called Surviving the Psychiatrist about my dad.
And I'm gonna do that.
My dad had a very interesting take on life.
Very non-traditional, very non-traditional.
He had one point early in his career, he couldn't do it.
A very humanist-
Number one, he forgot, he wouldn't label anyone.

(40:50):
He would not call them depressive
or he just didn't label people
and he didn't give medication.
At one point-
At one point he didn't.
He had a pivot from that
because pharmaceuticals stuff took over, but I digress.
Yeah, well, a moment-
Let's try to let Jackson speak, Joel.

(41:12):
Resist temptation.
Well, a moment of levity from a lot of heavy stuff
that you just mentioned.
And that is, we keep talking about in 300 episodes,
300 episodes that I've done,
I gotta tell you something you said earlier, Karmela,
it's probably one of my favorite quotes in 300 episodes.
You said, I've got a point.

(41:32):
I'm not getting to it soon, but I'll get to it.
I like that.
I've never had anyone say anything quite like that.
So I enjoyed that.
She always says, let me make this short story long.
She says, there are a lot of things that my mom says,
and I write about this in a book,
that I'm so, first of all, I don't hear my mom's accent,
but everyone else does.
But for some reason, we would drive around,

(41:54):
and when we would get inside the garage,
she would say, thank you for flying Ozark Airlines,
which I know you definitely never heard of,
and I definitely never heard of.
Then when Billy Crystal was a big thing,
she would say, you look marvelous.
Darling, you look marvelous.
Yeah, she's got a lot of really weird things

(42:15):
that I don't even react to,
but people, and this is a perfect example,
like I didn't even notice it,
but you are saying it's one of the funnier things
that you've heard.
So it's a lot of that from Carm.
I can do that a lot.
I say that funny thing to ask you,
I guess one of the more,

(42:36):
obviously we're talking about the Holocaust,
so that's pretty deep,
but maybe a harder question to ask you guys,
and that you just talked about your relationship
and kind of the uniqueness of it.
We talked about how the Holocaust has shaped your life.
How do you think that relationship has shaped your life
and shaped your own relationships?
I mean, I'm just thinking with you, Joel,

(42:57):
with your own wife,
I mean, to have a relationship so close with your mom,
it takes a very confident, strong person
to be able to deal with that, honestly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She puts up with a lot, honestly.
No one's ever made that point, at least publicly,
and I appreciate it,

(43:18):
because I guess I'm guilty slightly of being a mama's boy.
No, I mean, I'm lit.
It is a very, my mom and I, this is not normal.
I don't want anyone,
it's like when the show Jackass was on
and they're like, don't try this at home,
that's like our relationship.
Like it's a very unique relationship, and you're right.
Like my wife puts up with me and my mom,

(43:41):
which takes, like you said, a very strong woman.
It's-
She's a very strong, very bright,
like very bright.
She is, yeah.
She's tough.
A very, very smart person.
You know what's interesting is, I have three kids.
And Joel always cries that I team up with her against him.

(44:03):
Well, that's true.
But Jackson, I have three kids,
and they range in age from five, soon to be 11.
I started very young, however I did marry-
No, it's five.
It's almost five and a half.
Five. Five and a half.
Yeah, but my point is,
I don't think you could go anywhere
in this world right now, literally,

(44:24):
and find a five-year-old child whose grandmother,
not great-grandmother or great-great-grandmother,
but whose grandmother, one generation removed,
is a Holocaust survivor.
I bet he's the only one, because it's such,
because I had kids very late,
and it just doesn't, like the math doesn't,

(44:44):
I'd be shocked to find another person that,
and my mom was younger than he was,
which blows my mind,
when she was hidden in a Catholic school.
Literally four and a half,
and my son is now five and a half.
So she was a year younger,
and my mom was-
One month before my fifth birthday,
and I was like, I was a very little old lady at that time,

(45:07):
because I was with the adults and all other children,
and everybody was taking care of me.
Yeah, on a somewhat serious note,
I always say, I was in broadcast news for many years.
I started as a, just so people don't say,
oh, you were a Fox News guy.

(45:28):
I started my career at MSNBC,
like polar opposites, it's a producer.
But I do say that this is the most important story
that I've ever reported on,
which is documenting my mother's story.
But I always say this too to my community
at Surviving the Survivor,
which is it will certainly change

(45:49):
how you look at life, this book.
That is for sure.
It's, you can get it on Amazon,
anywhere you buy books,
but it'll certainly, I can guarantee you that,
once, I mean, you'll probably think we're still crazy,
but it will affect how you see things, for sure.
You see, I don't consider us crazy.
And this is after 40 years of meeting up

(46:13):
with a lot of crazy people in my profession.
I consider us a little strange,
a little out of the ordinary,
maybe a little eccentric,
maybe a little bit more in mesh with the world,
in mesh than most, but,
you know, my husband, who was a psychiatrist,

(46:33):
he said, you know, how can you tell
if somebody really has emotional problems?
Do you know how, Jackson, one of the definitions?
If they still listen to their mother at 55?
No, no, no, no.
One of the definitions is when they cannot hold the job.
You know, when they are not functioning in the world.

(46:57):
You know, I wonder about weird things, Jackson,
and again, we're cutting them off,
but I took my mom to see, I'm a standup comedy fan,
I took my mom to see Jerry Seinfeld a few weeks ago,
and he was actually hilarious.
I wasn't expecting him to be as funny as he was.
He was funny.
He was very funny, but I said to my mom,

(47:17):
do you think his mother, like still, like, the guy's worth
$800 million, had one of the most, like, unbelievable shows,
done everything, and I was like,
do you think his mother still yells at him?
I then found out she died 11 years ago, but hypothetically,
and she said, 100%, like, you never stop being a mother.

(47:39):
Like, she was, you know, up until the day she died,
just giving him advice, telling him she doesn't like
his white shoes, wearing white shoes,
how come you're not wearing a suit
when you're in front of so many people, blah, blah, blah.
You know, like, there's a stereotype
about Jewish mothers, I guess,
but I think it's all mothers that they're,
they nag their kids, you know, and...
Well, you know that that stereotype was very, very,

(48:03):
very strong at one time.
Then it kind of weakened.
I think it's because of women's lip.
They was less pinned on us, you know,
that we are guilty of whatever.
I think anyone listening to this,
it's gonna be like, these are the two most obnoxious people
I've ever heard.
Like, they didn't let this host ask a single question
and just talked about themselves.

(48:25):
Who are these people?
I never want to hear from them again.
I don't, it's like, I don't understand
why anyone watches these podcasts.
I have an idea, Joel.
Joel, let's...
By the way, my podcast is live every day on YouTube
at 5 p.m. or 7 p.m.
That is our big platform, 135,000 subscribers.
We get about two to three million views a month,
and we're anywhere you listen to podcasts.

(48:46):
How do you get that?
Let's do this.
Let's try to confuse the enemy, Joel,
and resist, look at your watch,
and the last 10 minutes of the interview...
His show's only 45 minutes.
We're over time, but it's okay.
Oh, too bad, because I was going to suggest
that we let you speak.
Well, what I was going to ask you,

(49:07):
obviously I enjoy listening to you guys.
People hear me speak plenty, so I don't mind that at all.
But I wanted to be, and I asked you that beforehand,
but I didn't actually get an answer.
So I wanted to be cognizant of your time.
Do you only have 10 more minutes?
I mean, I can let you guys speak as much as you want,
but I do want to make sure that we...
Whatever you need, we're here.

(49:28):
We can stay longer.
Yeah, 45 minutes is not a hard stop.
I mean, I've done everything from 20 minutes to two hours.
Let's keep it a little less than that.
But yeah, I want to ask you,
let's kind of wrap up the part with the book
in just kind of asking you what you hope people gain from it.

(49:48):
You already talked about that a little bit,
but just as a specific question,
what do you want people to ultimately gain
from reading the book?
I'm going to flip that onto my mom.
I'll give you a short answer.
My mom is a walking, breathing, living piece of history
with a lot of knowledge and also a lot of wisdom
because of not only the Holocaust,

(50:10):
but because years lived,
because she was a therapist,
and you heard her talk about, you know,
she was a person and still is who helps people with problems.
She suffered the loss of a child.
And I just think like we all, you know,
we're all going to lose a parent.
And by the way, I'm not sure how I'm going to exist when harmed.

(50:32):
I kind of hope it happens to me first.
I thought you wouldn't talk.
Oh, but what I really hope they get out of it
is just her wisdom and, you know,
some understanding and memory of her story.
You know, the war, my mom is very pro-Israel,
as you would imagine, and the war started in Israel

(50:54):
during the editing process of this book.
So I also put in some of her thoughts about that.
And yeah, I just want people to take away.
You know what? She gives me a lot of strength.
And I think if you read the book,
you kind of get that through osmosis.
Carm, what do you want people to get out of it?
Are you going to interrupt me?
No, but I've never heard you answer this, so I'm curious.

(51:15):
Well, I'll answer it. I'll answer it.
You know, today we got a text,
somebody who teaches in the school of one of my,
is the teacher of one of my grandchildren.
And she was called, like last time,
I'll get to the point.

(51:35):
They asked her to go for jury duty.
And she said she hopes when her time comes in the,
in the tribunal, that she hopes they won't choose her,
but she had a great day reading our book
and laughing out loud.
The book is also, believe it or not,

(51:58):
we were joking about this,
it's a book about the Holocaust.
It's a funny book on top of it.
It's funny. He writes very well.
He has a great sense of humor and he gets, he gets me,
he gets the funniness of the stories.
And what the book consists of is that he interviews me.

(52:21):
He, he took a little, his phone and taped our conversation.
And then, and then he wrote the book.
But- This part is true.
I think it's also- I must interrupt
because you told me not to interrupt.
Also, also the book is sort of,
the message of the book is what my message is about life.

(52:45):
That in spite of everything, I'm an optimist.
I am positive.
I think we can do, we can, we can be good.
We can be nice. We can create.
We are, you know, there is such,
I'm a positive person.
He will admit it that I'm a positive person.

(53:07):
Very positive.
Annoyingly, annoyingly positive person.
Yeah, annoyingly positive.
I was just going to say, you know, it's funny
because Carm talks about this interview she just did.
There's nothing Carm likes more than to watch herself.
Like the minute a podcast is over, she's watching.
I literally, the way the book was written
is I would record conversations with my mother

(53:28):
and kind of get like the skeleton of a chapter.
And then I would fill it out with my own, you know,
knowledge, understanding, my own feelings, my own thoughts.
True story.
I never rewrote a word of this book.
I just wrote it.
It was an outer body experience.
I don't even, I went to this weird hipster cafe in Miami.

(53:50):
I put on headphones.
I'm not a big music guy,
but I would listen to like Johnny Cash
and random weird country music.
I have no idea why.
And I just sat there and wrote,
and it's like a 307 page book,
never went back and rewrote it
and never read it since then.
And I probably won't till I'm like 90.
I don't know why.
I just, it makes me like weird and uncomfortable.

(54:12):
But Carm, how many times have you read the book about you?
Well, I listened.
We also have the audio book.
And the audio book is pretty funny
because I do it with Joel.
I do my parts.
He does his parts.
And while the book has all the curse words,

(54:35):
the audio book I cleaned up.
Whenever there was the word, whatever,
I called it feces.
And I skipped some four letter words.
And it's a very kind of very pure, clean book.
The audio engineer had to listen to us.
It took us like, I don't know, 40 hours.
He had a good time.
What was his name?
He loved, Berler.
Berler.

(54:55):
Berler.
He loved my mom,
and we would literally get to,
we were reading the book and the F-bomb would come up
and she's like, I did not say this.
And I'm like, I have it recorded on a phone.
Like you said it.
And then she would take 10 minutes to think of another word.
So it was like a really.
But anyway, I am.
I'm not sure how I'm still around,

(55:17):
like the stress that I've endured
just in the last couple of years.
But anyway, it's, I think it's an important story.
I'll leave it there.
But.
How many times have you read it?
I personally.
Yeah.
Like a thousand.
Probably I read it since it came out in May.
Probably I read it twice,

(55:37):
but it's absolutely true.
I watch myself and.
And never criticize.
Like I'm my worst critic.
My mom's like, I am fantastic.
I was great.
I was absolutely.
Jackson, the minute we get off,
she's going to say, where do I find this Joel?
I need a link.

(55:57):
And I'll have to say it goes through an edit process.
I'm gonna have to ask.
But Jackson, just make sure you email me a link
cause she'll be listening.
Jackson, do you know.
She'll be your biggest promoter.
You know.
Every old Jewish lady at her condo in Miami beach
will be listening to not in a huff.
I will absolutely be doing that.
Yeah.
What were you going to say?

(56:18):
No, that you have to understand
that one of the, I think it was Hillel,
one of the sages said that if I'm not for myself,
who will be?
And if I'm only for myself, who am I?
You know, not very, if I don't care about.
But I certainly, I have no talents.

(56:40):
I cannot sing.
I cannot write.
I cannot dance.
I am uncoordinated.
Everything else, but I have a good self image.
That's important.
That's really, really important for sure.
And you've mentioned this World War II museum
in New Orleans several times.
I don't know whether you still do a lot of traveling,

(57:01):
but that thing is, if it's all of interest to you,
it's huge.
I mean, it's like three city blocks.
It's not just a little museum.
It is quite the thing.
Are you talking about the,
I think it's called the museum of like Jewish.
There's a war too.
There's a war.
Yeah, the World War II museum is in New Orleans.

(57:22):
There's a reason for it.
It's where the, some tank was invented
and that's why they put it there.
But no, it's three city blocks.
It's the World War II museum for the entire United States.
It's huge.
I didn't know that.
I think this will illustrate what kind of a person I am.
So after this young woman interviewed me,

(57:44):
I said to her, let's go down and have lunch.
It's already lunchtime.
She traveled especially from New Orleans to interview me.
Okay.
For some strange reason,
because they needed more people
and she got my name and so forth
for the inventory or whatever.
Anyway, we went downstairs.

(58:05):
We had a lovely lunch and I really liked her.
And we started to talk about very personal things.
And I met her like two hours before and she opened up
and I really liked her.
And so I called her up recently
and I advised her on dating.

(58:28):
And now I have to call her back.
How old is she?
She's in her thirties.
And anyway, he never met her.
He doesn't know who I'm talking about.
I'm not revealing.
Jackson, I see a wedding band on your hand
but if you have any friends, let Carm know.
Maybe there's a...
Yeah, if anybody needs advice about marriage
or anything called pre-op charge.

(58:50):
By the way, you said if Carm still travels,
she is planning...
I drive.
I drive.
She drives.
She's going to Israel on a 12 hour flight in March
when this war could flare up.
I'm not gonna let her go if there's bombs flying.
But Carm did a whole,
we did a whole book tour for Surviving the Survivor.

(59:11):
Yeah, we went to Toronto.
We went to New York.
We went to Philadelphia.
We went to Boston.
She went everywhere with me
and she had like way more energy than me.
I was knocked out.
The energy she has, I definitely did not inherit that.
Well, then I mean, if it's at all of interest to you,
that museum in New Orleans,

(59:32):
you did a piece for is quite the museum.
They have a whole like 3D interactive experience.
It's actually narrated by Tom Hanks.
It's an interesting thing.
So it's not a Holocaust museum.
It's a World War II museum.
It's not a Holocaust museum.
It's a World War II museum.
It's not a Holocaust, except for some reason,
they decided to interview about the Holocaust.

(59:55):
I don't know why, but they did.
And I don't even know where they got...
The only reason I mentioned it to you because...
Carm, how come you didn't get my book in that bookshop?
I...
By the way, Carm is the only person in history
to sign a book she never wrote.
She signs every book.
Yeah, I signed the books.
Every book.

(01:00:16):
That's... Well, it's about you.
You should. She never wrote a word.
She never wrote a word. You should.
It's about you, right?
Yeah, oddly, oddly, in Indiana, there's a really
powerful Holocaust museum.
She just recently passed away, but it...
Eva Kaur moved to Indiana.

(01:00:37):
I don't know if you know who she is.
She was a twin, so she was part of the Mengele experiments.
So every month she would come to her own museum.
I went a few times and give a conversation,
but no, there's a really...
It's not very big, but there's a pretty powerful
Holocaust museum here.
What city?

(01:00:57):
Actually, in Champaign, you were closer to it than I am.
It's in Terre Haute, which is right on the border
of Indiana and Illinois.
Illinois.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
Let's move... Go ahead.
I'd like to ask Carm some trivia.
Who is from French Lick, Indiana, Carm?
French Lick, Indiana?

(01:01:18):
Yeah.
No, I'll give you a hint.
He's one of the greatest basketball players ever.
All right, Joel. Now you want to prove I don't know anything about...
And he used to... I'll give you a more hint.
He used to practice... I went to Brandeis University.
He used to practice in our gym.
Joel, could we just try to...
Larry Bird, the other day that you were watching Hoops.

(01:01:38):
Larry Bird, he's the...
I thought he was in Boston.
There's nothing bigger than basketball.
Was he in Boston?
Yeah, but he's from Indiana.
He played for the Boston Celtics.
Oh, I thought he was a real Boston person.
By the way, Carm called the Philadelphia Eagles Super Bowl win.
I talked to her.
I asked for her prediction.
She called... She didn't know whether it was football or what sport,

(01:01:59):
but she called Philadelphia.
That's good, and if you want to do a road trip to Terre Haute,
go see the Candles Holocaust Museum.
She's got a hologram of herself there now.
And because Larry Bird actually went to Indiana State,
which is in Terre Haute,
there's a Larry Bird museum that just opened like six months ago there.
So you can do it all at once.

(01:02:21):
Gotta go.
May I say something to you?
Sure.
The same way that I don't go to cemeteries that much,
I don't go to Holocaust Museum that much.
Jackson, I'll tell you a really funny story in three seconds.
So I went to Brandeis University, which is Walt M. Mass,
and this is when the Celtics were...
This is when basketball was really basketball.

(01:02:42):
I mean, this was like Bird versus Magic Johnson.
And I wasn't like a cool jock,
but I would hang out with the soccer team and the baseball team and those guys.
And they knew where Larry lived,
and they would go at like two, three in the morning
and grab all his garbage and then bring it back to the dorm rooms.

(01:03:04):
And they would find like the Larry Bird's toothpaste or an old sneaker from...
Like if it was today, they'd be selling it all on eBay.
eBay didn't exist, but they would just like keep it as keepsakes.
So if Larry's listening, he should know that his old toothpaste...
I don't know what you call that. Toothpaste tube.
How old is he now? 70?

(01:03:25):
No, he's in his 60s.
White 60s. He may be pushing 70.
He's in that age.
I guarantee you he's not listening.
I've definitely given... I've talked about him before.
I've met him a few times.
He actually was the Pacers coach for a while,
and then he was their president for 20 years.

(01:03:46):
He's not the friendliest of guys.
He doesn't have that Hoosier hospitality.
Yeah, he's a little like Hermudgeny for sure.
But he is definitely one of the best to ever do it.
Oh, absolutely, for sure.
Let's get into your podcast.
I like the tagline.
You already mentioned it.
Best guest in crime.
That's obviously a pretty lofty thing.

(01:04:07):
This is obviously not a true crime podcast,
but we dabble in a lot of different things.
And I'd like to say when I do dabble in true crime,
I've had some pretty amazing guests.
So you consistently have really, really awesome ones,
but I don't know who your guests have been,
but some of the cool people I've been able to speak with.

(01:04:28):
I talked to Amanda Knox.
I talked to Dave Riker, who caught the Green River Killer.
I talked to Dr. Henry Lee, who is the criminal pathologist
for in the John Benet Ramsey case and Scott Peterson.
I know Drew Peterson.
So I've had some interesting true crime people on,

(01:04:49):
but you consistently day in and day out
have some really, really amazing guests.
So I want you to kind of just talk about the podcast
and maybe highlight some guests,
if that's even possible with as many as you've had.
Yeah, for sure.
I'm also, as much as we get around,
I'm watching Carmella wilt before my eyes.
We've got to probably like maybe five times.
No, no, no.
I was just going to say before he starts

(01:05:13):
that I am semi-retired from the podcast.
When we started during COVID in 2021,
we did what you are doing now.
We did interesting people and interesting stories.
And both of us love those types of things,
you know, meeting new people, finding out their stories.

(01:05:36):
So we did that.
But once he pivoted to true crime,
I come on a few times as a psychology expert, you know,
analyzing the people and their behavior.
You're the major arc of the show,
and I don't know how interesting you are.
Yeah, and people respond very nicely to me, you know.
But I don't...

(01:05:57):
Carm, this isn't about you.
This is about the best guests.
I don't do it on an ongoing basis.
So I'm not going to have any comments
about the true crime story.
Carm's favorite line to me is,
Joe, this is not about you, and she's making this...
He just asked about the best guests,
not your role in the show, Carm.
So I will answer.
She's miffed.

(01:06:18):
Well, hold on.
I'm going to stop you for a second there, too.
Just because you talked about best guests,
you talked about how it used to be with interesting people.
You know, looking at some of your old interviews
when it was kind of that, the one that I...
And reaches out to, I guess, that is the Holocaust area.
The one that I am definitely a little jealous of is...

(01:06:40):
I know that you had...
I don't know how to exactly pronounce it,
but Ben Farinson.
Yeah.
He...
When I first started this podcast,
I was in contact with his people when he was 102.
We went back and forth for a little while.
Then he turned 103, and they came back and said...
You know, he decided he's 103,

(01:07:02):
that he said everything that he wants to say,
and he's going to let somebody else talk next to him.
Let's talk now.
So we never got it booked.
So that was a really special thing that you guys did then.
Yeah, that was incredible.
For those who do not know, Ben Ferenc is like 4'9", in real life,
and he's since passed.
But he was the youngest prosecutor during the Nuremberg trials.

(01:07:25):
He was the oldest living prosecutor
at the end of his life from that trial.
No one else had survived as long as him,
but he had a slogan.
It's funny because just yesterday, my wife...
I have his business card, and it's signed.
And on his card, it was law, not war.

(01:07:46):
And my wife yelled from the bathroom, like,
Whoa, I didn't know you had this thing signed.
But most people don't know who he is,
but he made a real difference in the world.
He prosecuted Nazis and gave them...
Famous top Nazis.
Yeah, famous top Nazis.
And Jackson knew about him.
And gave him the proper...
No, if you continue like this, you'll become an honorary Jew.

(01:08:11):
But back to your best guess question.
I mean, you had...
These are big names that you're throwing out there,
really big names.
But I sort of...
Everything I do in life, by accident,
I became a news reporter by accident, all this stuff.
I became a podcaster by accident.
But I accidentally kind of created a niche within true crime.
And I'm one of the only ones, I think,

(01:08:33):
to kind of do a live nightly true crime talk show
about the biggest cases in the country.
So if you're old enough to remember Larry King,
and Larry King, in my opinion, is a legend,
I really thought he was great
because he was concise and to the point, unlike me.
He wasn't like the smartest human being alive at the time,
but he would ask very pointed questions very simply,

(01:08:55):
which is a talent.
Anyway, so every night at either five or seven,
I host a live show on YouTube at Surviving the Survivor.
And we cover the biggest cases.
And so the big names that we've had,
Nancy Grace, most people know,
Vinnie Paltan's a lead anchor at Court TV.

(01:09:21):
And it just runs the gamut.
Some of the people who are not in the space
might not know, but she is a literal living legend,
is Dr. Anne Burgess,
who's a very famous criminal profiler,
who's older than my mother,
still teaches full-time at Boston College.
There was just a Hulu documentary,
which is great about her, called Mastermind.

(01:09:43):
And if you ever saw the show, Minehunter, on Netflix,
it is based on her career, her life.
And we have Mark Garagos on somewhat frequently,
when he's now kind of representing the Menendez brothers.
Incidentally, I grew up with Lyle and Eric playing tennis,

(01:10:04):
which is a whole other story,
because they're actually from New Jersey.
So we have a very high caliber,
but criminal defense attorneys,
and then just interesting people you meet along the way.
One of them is Kerry Rosson,
who is the daughter of the BTK serial killer
from Wichita, Kansas.
And she and I were very close.

(01:10:28):
I still stay in touch with her,
but during this Brian Coburger case,
the guy accused of murdering four students in Idaho,
she was kind of very public with that,
and was being asked a lot of questions
in relation to that case.
And so we get like very interesting perspectives.

(01:10:48):
And you know, like many other things in America,
there is a whole community of people
who are into true crime.
So there is even a crime con.
Did you know that?
I did, yeah.
We went to one.
Carm, I just heard that the next crime con,
the host hotels are already sold out,
which is making me crazy.

(01:11:08):
But yeah, we're a crime con every year.
This year, they're actually expecting,
I think 10,000 people in Denver.
Yeah, there's a whole world around true crime.
That's for sure.
Yeah, no, I mean, I was,
I wanna kind of be cognizant of your time.
You guys have been so gracious with it.
In wrapping up before I have you,

(01:11:29):
just shout out all your connection points.
I wanna kind of end it just in,
you know, this is a very unique thing
that you guys have both done
when it comes to creating that podcast,
when it comes to the book.
What's it been like?
I know you guys have,
I'm sure you don't just develop
this interesting relationship, you know,
and I'm sure your whole life

(01:11:50):
you guys have had the relationship that you have.
But what, I guess, what's it been like
in these last five plus years?
You know, you just talked about a book tour.
You talked about interviewing
all these interesting people.
I mean, I guess I wanna start with Pramila if I can.
You know, it sounds like probably

(01:12:12):
you were over 80 when all of this started.
So what's it like just this kind of
resurgence of interest in your story
and then just sharing the platform with your son?
I think that we have similar personalities
in the sense that we are really people into people, you know?
We are not the mountain climbers

(01:12:33):
or sitting by the ocean and watching the waves.
We interact with people all the time.
And I think we have the same type of humor.
And because we have known each other for so long,
we kind of have a lot of shortcut
on each other's thinking before he opens his mouth.

(01:12:54):
I know what he will say next sometimes, you know?
So we have a lot of...
And honestly, I'm the same way with my daughter-in-law also.
I know where she's at and what's going on mentally with her.
By the way, Carm is in the true crime space

(01:13:15):
is sort of legendary in her own right.
She's got kind of a cult of personality.
People watch the show because of her.
She could do no wrong.
Yeah, they always think I'm the poor little old lady
and Joel is the mean son.
Yeah, and by the way, my wife is part of the show.
She's known as the COE, the chief of everything.

(01:13:38):
And people are constantly defending her and my mother.
And it's like, you know, true crime is predominantly women.
It's like 82% women.
You know, with YouTube analytics, you can break things down
and it's 82% women.
So, but what can I tell you?
I have made Carm a celebrity.
Rodney, I think I write this in a book.

(01:13:59):
Rodney Dangerfield didn't become famous until his like 60s.
And now Carm is experiencing celebrity in her 80s
for the first time.
And she's loving every minute of it.
But I'm also cognizant of the fact that, you know,
the world is fickle.

(01:14:21):
If I bite the dust, they may remember me
for another couple of months.
So I'm trying to enjoy it while I'm here.
That's longer than most.
Yeah, longer.
Anyway, yeah, the people are very, very, very nice.
His community is very, very nice.
Very nice people.

(01:14:42):
That's good.
135,000 of them.
Yeah, that's nothing to sneeze at for sure.
So yeah, I mean, you've already kind of given your two cents
with the Joel, but I mean, what's it like?
I guess I'm going to flip it a little bit
with the question to you.
What's it like that you're a little bit of your popularity

(01:15:04):
is tied to, you know, your mother here.
Yeah, it's funny you bring that up.
So I was invited to the Tucson Festival books.
I'm going to be there in March.
And I told Carm to come with me.
She's like, I'm not flying to, you know, Phoenix
to then go to you can't get a direct flight to Tucson.
So long story short, I'm going solo.
But, you know, I'm going to be doing a talk

(01:15:29):
at the Holocaust Museum in Tucson.
And the JCCC reached out. So we were on this email today.
Long story short, I said to them, look, you don't want me.
Like the real star of this show always is Carm.
So this happened in LA.
We went to LA where my wife is from.
So Carm couldn't make the trip and we put her up
on a giant monitor and she was part of the conversation

(01:15:53):
via Zoom.
So I suggested to the Tucson people that we put Carm up
because no one wants to hear me.
Everyone's always really interested in Carm.
One of the really strange things but interesting
is that apparently it's a thing in Judaism
to be blessed by a Holocaust survivor.

(01:16:14):
And Carm lives in, so this is a nice building in Miami Beach.
But, you know, it's kind of what you imagine.
It's women in their 80s who have very dark tans.
And they come up to her and wrinkled pruney skin.
And they come up to her and they're like,
I heard you're a survivor. Could you bless me?
And Carm's like the Pope. It's crazy.

(01:16:35):
She'll be like, I have blessed you.
What do you say to them, Carm?
I say you're blessed.
Carm loves it.
No, first I was surrounded by my granddaughters.
We were sitting around the pool.
By the way, when it's time to wrap the show,
this is when Carm will go another 25 minutes.
We'll go ahead.

(01:16:55):
Yeah, we can't say goodbye.
It's very painful to say goodbye.
But anyway, I was sitting there with my granddaughters.
I told you I have five.
I was sitting around with three or so.
And suddenly a woman came over and she said,
I heard that you are a survivor of the Holocaust.
Could you give me a blessing?

(01:17:17):
My daughter-in-law is expecting twins
and I want them to be healthy.
So I said, I bless you and I bless the twins.
And they're cracking up, totally cracking up.
I said it earlier.
I have no idea why.
Well, the podcast I get,
because we have these amazing guests every night.
No, no false modesty, Joel.

(01:17:39):
Yes, they like the...
I'm curious, anyone who's listening to this,
please email me if I can give it out.
Surviving the Survivor at Gmail.
And let me know if this is the most abnormal
interview you've ever heard.
I will not be offended.
I'm just curious what you guys think.
Because I'm just putting myself in there.
If I'm in like Indiana,

(01:18:00):
and people are listening to it all over,
but if I'm someone who's not accustomed to you and I,
and I'm listening to this,
I'm like, these are the two weirdest people
I've ever met.
I'd like to think my listener base is friendlier than that.
So I hope you get zero emails telling you
that you guys are weird.
I don't want that to happen.
I'll let you know, Jackson.
Yeah, well, please do.

(01:18:20):
I tell you, I could handle it because weird is good.
But in any case, I enjoyed talking to you.
And I wish you good luck for the future.
You see, I'm giving the blessing.
I will take it.

(01:18:41):
Good.
Do you have children?
I do not.
No, I do not have children.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah, that's taking us down a totally different road.
I don't think we'll travel.
But I, yeah, no, I really appreciate both of you all's time.
Please, if you would, shout out all your connection points.

(01:19:04):
Joel, I think this is your time to shine about the book,
how people are going to find it,
how people find your podcast.
Carmela, if this is your time to say that you're starting
your own podcast without Joel,
that we can share that as well.
So I think that the truth of the matter is that Joel has,
I think you do a false modesty thing

(01:19:27):
because the ladies just love you, Joel.
That's the truth.
LL Cool J, you know what that says.
The 82% of the women like Joel very much.
I don't know how to treat that.
They know he's not available because he is married
with three children.
But ladies get the kick out of him.
So Carm will go on and on and on now, right?

(01:19:51):
He's the one who is running the show.
If he's not there for one night,
it's different audience already.
Whenever we try to wrap the show and she's on, I'm not kidding.
I tell you, I'll call you okay and then I'll shut up.
Yeah, so number one, thank you so much for having us on.

(01:20:12):
I really appreciate it.
Number two, I gotta say, Jackson's one of the
better interviewers I've ever seen.
And I mean that.
He listens, which I don't do, but he's listening
and then asking very smart follow-up questions.
So kudos to you.
I feel like you were a sports journalist in college.

(01:20:33):
Did you cover sports for the paper?
I didn't, I did not, no.
I feel like, I don't know,
I have this picture of you doing that.
Anyway, the podcast.
The podcast is called Surviving the Survivor.
You can follow us on Instagram at Surviving the Survivor
and I'll make it easy on you.
The book is called Surviving the Survivor.
So you don't have a lot to remember there.

(01:20:54):
The book is available anywhere books are sold.
You can ask your bookstore to order it
if you can't do it on Amazon.
And the podcast, again, Surviving the Survivor,
and it is on YouTube.
That's a big platform, but you can listen to it
anywhere you listen to podcasts.
And we actually just launched a second channel.

(01:21:17):
And I'll just tell you about it super quick.
So again, our tagline is best guests in true crime,
which I spent a lot, by the way,
shout out to Steve Cohen, who books our guests.
He's a friend of mine from Fox Days.
He's an experienced network producer
and he's amazing at kind of connecting us
and getting us the right people.

(01:21:38):
But we are because we have so many amazing guests.
Some of them actually come up to us and said,
I have a private investigation firm
or I'm a full-time Colonel Defense Attorney,
but I love what you're doing
and I would like to do something.
So I had this idea and we launched about two weeks ago,
a second channel called STS True Crime Talk,

(01:22:01):
true crime talk, and it's hashtag best talk in true crime.
True crime talk, you can find it on Surviving the Survivor.
And I'm modeling it.
I was like a sports fan for a very long time
and I would listen to the fan, WFAN in New York City.
But it's just imagine like sports talk radio
or political talk radio.

(01:22:22):
And we are gonna fill that channel with content
where you can turn and essentially listen
to different experts in different areas of true crime
all day long.
And we're building it out slowly,
but I think it's interesting and people,
I'll give you a very quick example.
We've got a guy named Doug McGregor.
He's known as the geo profiler

(01:22:42):
and he solves cases by using geographic modeling.
Like he has a whole method of finding missing people
using like coordinates and GPS
and different psychological methods and models.
And so he has now launched his own show
called the geo profiler.
We have a detective who is both a PhD.

(01:23:05):
So he's the only doctor detective that I know.
He's gonna be doing a series on detectives.
Carm's telling me to stop talking,
but there's more to come, more to come.
And we are also into victims of crime.
Advocating for victims.
Advocating for victims.
No, I think that's important.

(01:23:26):
Well, a lot to get excited about,
a lot to check out.
I really, really appreciate both of your time.
All of the links to everything that you just mentioned
will be in the show notes.
And yeah, I can't thank you enough both for being here.
Thank you, absolute pleasure.
Carm, you have the last word.
Carm, leave us with a word of wisdom.
Good luck and all the best.

(01:23:49):
So that was Julen Carmela Waldman.
What an interview.
What an amazing experience.
I, you know, we talk about how I've interviewed
200 plus people.
I think we said 300 in this.
And that's true between interviewing two people at once
or some of the interviews that have never came out.
I think this is one of my favorite interviews.

(01:24:09):
Just listening to them banter back and forth.
I had so much fun.
I had a smile on my face pretty much the entire interview.
It's so fun to listen to them.
I don't even think I necessarily even had to be there.
I guided the interview a little bit,
but they seemed to always answer the questions
before I get to ask them.
That's how it always works.

(01:24:30):
But what an awesome mother and son duo.
And, you know, it's fun,
but it's also a really impactful thing that they're sharing.
You know, that book, Surviving the Survivor,
covers a really tragic story,
but one that Carmela's done more than just overcome.
I think she's actually conquered her story.

(01:24:54):
And yeah, I know that, you know, their bickering
comes completely out of love for each other,
and it shows for sure.
And I just had such a great time speaking with them.
Go check out the book, Surviving the Survivor.
Go check out the podcast, Surviving the Survivor.
It's on daily.
It's a true crime podcast, true crime show on YouTube.

(01:25:17):
All the links to both of those things,
the book and Joel's YouTube channels.
He talked about having more than just that one now.
All that will be in the show notes.
Really, really appreciated both of them agreeing to join me.
I can't thank them enough.
I had so much fun.
If this is your first time listening to this podcast,
or you haven't already, go follow along.

(01:25:38):
Subscribe on Apple or Spotify.
Leave a five-star rating on Apple or Spotify.
Leave a written review on Apple.
Helps a ton.
I hope some people from Surviving the Survivor
listen to this, and you already know and love
Joel and Carmella, but hopefully this gives you
just a little bit more insight of just how amazing
these people are.
So thanks for being here.

(01:25:59):
Joel, Carmella, thank you both for being here.
We'll see you all next week.
Take it away, Chris.
This has been Not in a Huff with Jackson Huff.
Thank you for listening.
Be sure to join us next time,
where we will interview another amazing guest
who is sure to make you laugh or make you think,
or hey, maybe even both.
But until then, keep being awesome.

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#233- Joel & Karmela Waldman: Surviving the Survivor | Humor and Strength Through the Darkness

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#233- Joel & Karmela Waldman: Surviving the Survivor | Humor and Strength Through the Darkness