Emmy Winner Shannon Malone-deBenedictis on Transforming the Media Landscape and Empowering Creatives

What happens when a two-time Emmy Award-winning television executive decides to flip the script on her career? In this episode of the NOT REAL ART podcast, host Scott "Sourdough" Power uncovers the remarkable story of Shannon Malone-deBenedictis—a creative entrepreneur transforming the media landscape. From sharing the screen with Hollywood legends to forging her own path with the artist mentorship organization Padlin Creative, Shannon’s story is a powerful testament to resilience and authenticity. 

Throughout our conversation, we explore Shannon’s history in documentary filmmaking, where she’s had the privilege of working alongside legendary figures like James Cameron and Sigourney Weaver. It’s fascinating to hear her reflect on her transition from the bustling world of television to launching her own venture, Padlin Creative. This new endeavor is more than just a career shift for her; it’s a heartfelt mission. With the media landscape in constant flux, she’s deeply committed to mentoring creatives and providing them with the essential tools they need to thrive. 

Shannon also opens up about her experiences as a plus-size woman navigating an often critical industry. She bravely shares the societal pressures she's faced and advocates for a culture that promotes acceptance and self-empowerment. Her workshop, Fully Unapologetic, is a powerful call to action for women everywhere to embrace their true selves without fear or hesitation. It's a refreshing perspective that encourages confidence and self-worth, and it highlights how essential authenticity is to the creative process. Whether you’re an established artist or just starting out, Shannon’s insights will inspire you to embrace your identity and cultivate your creative journey unapologetically. Join us as we explore her mission and discover how embracing your true self can redefine success.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Arterial

ArtsvilleUSA

First Friday Exhibitions

NOT REAL ART

NOT REAL ART Podcast

PADLIN CREATIVE

Remote Video Series

For more information, please visit https://notrealart.com/shannon-malone-debenedictis-padlin-creative

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The Not Real Art podcast isintended for creative audiences only.
The Not Real Art podcastcelebrates creativity and creative
culture worldwide. It containsmaterial that is fresh, fun and inspiring
and is not suitable for.
Boring old art snobs.
Now let's get started andenjoy the show. Greetings and salutations,

(00:52):
my creative brothers andsisters. Welcome to Not Real Art,
the podcast where we talk tothe world's most creative people.
I am your host, faithful,trusty, loyal, tireless, relentless
host. Sourdough coming at youfrom Crew West Studio in Los Angeles.
Man, do we have a great showfor you today. We have a two time
Emmy award winning televisionexecutive, the one and only Shannon

(01:15):
Malone, the Benedictus. AndI'm so grateful that she took time
out of her busy schedule tocome through and talk about her new
venture, her new endeavor,paddling Creative. So before we get
into that, I want to thank youfor tuning in. I also want to thank
our presenting sponsor,Arturial. Arterial.org Arturial is
a nonprofit arts mediaorganization and they are now our

(01:35):
fiscal sponsor. Which meansthat you can support our work and
you can support the show andeverything we do here at NARL Art
with a tax deductible donationthat you can make through our website
and through Arterial's websiteif you go to arterial.org so no pressure,
but please, please considersupporting the work because of course
that helps us pay our bills.It makes life a little bit easier.

(01:55):
So thank you. Anything willhelp. Appreciate support. So as always,
of course I also want toencourage you to go to notrelart.com
check out all the good healthystuff we got for you there. It's
gluten free, it's organic,it's fresh, it's free range, it's
incredible content dedicatedto art and artists. And you're going
to be so inspired to learn anddiscover amazing art and artists.
Notrealart.com you'll be ableto of course check out first Friday's

(02:19):
art exhibitions, new showsevery month. You'll be able to check
out Badir McCleary's exclusiveoriginal series remote, only [e-mail]
so please go check everythingout. All right, now, Shannon Malone
Dubenedictus is in the house.Shannon and I go back. Oh, I don't
know. One, two. Yeah. Threedecades. Yes, that's right people,
three decades. And she is anincredible human for starters, but

(02:43):
incredible filmmaker,documentary filmmaker, two time Emmy
award winning and you know,she created an amazing career for
herself in television. Butshe's pivoted now as an entrepreneur
into this new endeavor,Paddling creative. So we're going
to talk about this, we'regoing to see what's going on over
there. Paddling. But here's alittle bit about Shannon that you
might not know. She's been aleading television development production

(03:06):
figure for years. She'scollaborated with the BBC, James
Cameron, Sigourney Weaver,Sella Ward, James Spader, Dennis
Quaid and the Jackson ForkRanch. She's won, as I said, two
Emmy awards at Red Rock Films.Outstanding documentary series for
Disney Plus Secrets of theWhales, an outstanding nature and

(03:26):
adventure series for Netflix,Penguin Town. She has developed and
produced programs in severalgenres from science and natural history
to embedded reality andchildren's programming. With an extensive
career as an editor, producerand in house development executive,
she excels in taking a 10,000foot kind of approach to every project
with a passion for problemsolving and an ease in grasping both

(03:47):
creative and businessinterests. The same passion applies
to ecosystems, native culturesand our planet. Shannon's expertise
in being behind the camera,storytelling and producing nature
or location filming willeducate, amuse and inspire passengers
on special interest indestination cruises. Herself an experienced
cruise passenger, Shannonunderstands the importance of engaging

(04:09):
audience by merging animalscience with human behaviors. It's
not all about facts, people.It's humor, it's fear, it's understanding.
Shannon built her career atnon fiction film production and companies
such as Red Rock Films, WAGtv, Nat Geo and Warner Brothers Discovery.
Shannon is a native ofWashington, Tony and avid newsreader
and proud Nationals baseballfan. She's always been a huge baseball

(04:30):
fan, you know, and I've knownher a long time and I'm just so grateful
that she took time to come.I'm grateful she's still my friend.
She knows she knows me. Sheknows me really well. The fact that
she still calls me her friendis kind of a miracle. So I hope she
continues to keep me aroundand I'm just grateful that she's
here today. So without furtherado, let's get into this conversation
I had with the one and onlyShannon Malone. Duh. Benedictus Foreign

(05:01):
welcome back to Not Real Art.
Good to see you. It's alwaysgood to see you, dear.
Oh. Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
You're not sick of me yet. Imean, it's been 30 years.
Coming up on 30 years. Andlook, and here's the deal. You are
aging magnificently. I'm a.I'm a 55, 54 year old woman. I'm
allowed to say that now. I'mat that age where I can kind of make

(05:22):
those inappropriate commentsto. You're aging well.
Well, this is a good time topoint out. Thank you for that. It's
a good time to point out thatI do live in the plastic surgery
capital of the world with thebest plastic surgeons to the stars
here in the City of Angels,Los Angeles, AKA Hollyweird. So,
yeah, of course I look great.
Yeah, you look fabulous. Youlook fabulous. Yeah.

(05:43):
Well, I'll tell you, it's allthe whiskey and we have stories,
lots of drinking stories thatwe could go, we could go back on.
But yeah, let's, let's, let'sleave those, let's leave those skeletons
in the closet.
That's probably best. That'sprobably best. That will be for the
all drinking episode marathon.Like, we'll just get a whole bunch
of people. Artists on here andjust throw, start throwing back some

(06:05):
on Glen Fiddich and we'll,we'll, we'll exchange stories. That's
what we should do.
I love it. I love it. Well,look, I mean, as you already know,
and just for the sake of ourlisteners, you know, I wanted to
have you back on the showbecause, of course, you know, you
are a dear friend and, and,and longtime friend and colleague,
but really, you're at thisinteresting trans. Time because last

(06:26):
time we spoke, last time youcame on the show, we were celebrating
your Emmy win. I don't know ifit was that your, if that was your
first Emmy win or your secondEmmy win, but you have two Emmy wins.
Who's counting?
No.
Oh, wait. You're flanked byyour image.
I have no idea what you'retalking about.
What do I got behind me? Justa bunch of trauma. Anyway, so here

(06:49):
you are, accomplishedfilmmaker, accomplished storyteller,
and now you're pivoting intokind of a new phase of your career,
a new, new endeavor. And Ijust, I'm excited to hear about it.
I want to help. Anything. Helpwe, Anything we can do to help amplify
and promote this, this, thisnew endeavor. But, but, but, you
know, obviously given yourtrack record, given your legacy and

(07:12):
your in your accomplishments,I mean, it feels like the perfect
time to go out and try to help people.
That's really what motivatedme. And like you said, we've known
each other three decades now,and how we met, how we worked together
was helping talented creativeprofess. And, you know, sure, sales
is great. Sure, meetingclients and going into boardrooms

(07:33):
is fine. But for me, whatmotivated me the most, helping people
was helping people,particularly creatives, find work
and feel inspired in what theydo. So, as many people are aware
of, the television industry isunder a huge amount of flux. I think
it started as a dumpster fire,and then it became like a brush fire.
And I'm sorry. Oh, no. Notmeant to bring any fear in people

(07:55):
from la, but it's been prettyawful. And one thing that I saw,
and I think a lot of expertslike Josh Shapiro and others would
agree, is that it's not comingback. This is not going to come back
to the way that it was a fewyears ago. The media race is over
and now it's contracted, andthere are a lot of really creative
professionals out there whoare struggling. And I love mentoring,

(08:18):
I love helping. So I launchedmy company, Padland Creative, which
Padlin stands for. My mother'snickname was Patty Paddy and her
real first name was Lina, andI combined them together and I created
Padlin Creative.
Love it. Shout out, Mom.
Shout out to my mom. It's mycompany started as being this. I'm
going to help creativeprofessionals, help creative companies

(08:40):
overcome hurdles, overcomesnags, because one thing that I have
an expertise in is coming in10,000ft and saying, okay, this is
how we want to rearrangethings. This is how we want to do
things. And then working oneon one with producers, artists, writers,
editors, et cetera, andhelping them find a path. So you
get that, because that's whatwe did. That's what we learned when
we were at Aquent. We learnedhow to do that. But in doing this,

(09:03):
I wrote an article on LinkedInabout being fat. And I have been
heavy my whole life. I'vealways been an overweight woman,
but I like to think of myselfas a running, jumping, overweight
woman.
You know, you're an athlete,man. You're a better athlete than
I am. I mean, you know, Idon't mean that. That. Doesn't that

(09:25):
probably sound like a sexistthing to say? I didn't mean it that
way, but no, you. You'vealways been incredibly athletic and
active. That's incredible. Yeah.
Yeah. I remember one timeupsetting our buddy Dave when we
played a basketball shootinggame at a bar and I beat him. And
he was really mad because Ibeat him. You know, Shout out to
Dave.
Shout out Dave Burkett.
Shout out to Dave Burkett. Youknow, so, I mean, but I've always
been way. And I wrote about myexperience of being in boardrooms,

(09:47):
being in sales meetings, beingthe only woman over a size 8 in media,
and I got a huge response toit. Huge. And I said, there's Something
here. Yeah, there's somethinghere. And so I started a public speaking
workshop initiative calledFully Unapologetic. And it's talking
about how women in particular,and plus size women, we're. We're

(10:08):
made to feel like we have toapologize for everything. Everything.
We apologize for our size. Weapologize for not fitting a perfect
ideal. We apologize for maybenot responding to an email as fast
as we think we should.
Right.
And. And it really eats awayat you and also undermines your authority
and undermines what you're.What you're. You're capable of doing.
And I. I know even I. I lookedat myself for a long time, and I

(10:31):
would start emails and I'dsay, I think you should, or, I'm
sorry to ask you this, butcould you. And I'm like, why am I
being so passive? Why am Ibeing apologetic for just asking
people to do their work? Andlike I said, 54 years old, I don't
care that much anymore. I wantto help people and make people better.
So I've launched this webinarworkshop public speaking initiative

(10:54):
not only to help mediaprofessionals, but help people and
women in general of saying,hey, it's okay. You're good. You're
good.
Yeah. Yeah. Right on. What wasit like writing that? I mean, that's
such a poignant story. I mean,you wrote this article and sort of
like, I guess if, you know, ifa kid were gay and they were, like,
coming out to their family orif, you know, if you're voicing your

(11:16):
truth to the world and, youknow, putting that article out there,
I mean, have you ever felt sovulnerable as you did in that moment?
I mean, how vulnerable did youfeel? I guess I shouldn't. I shouldn't
assume you felt vulnerable,but, like. Like, that's. That. That
was. That. That was. Must havebeen, I don't know, a milestone moment
for you on some level just to,like, come out with. With that personal

(11:37):
story, you know, it was.
But what was interesting wasdiscovering the things that I had
compartmentalized and I hadn'treally thought about and breaking
it down and acknowledging howit had affected me. So what I realized
was that from years of dealingwith just really obnoxious behavior,

(11:57):
being a heavy woman, going tohappy hours, going to bars, et cetera.
And, you know, I, you know, Ihave a very clear memory of going
to a bar and some guy justblatantly saying to me, you don't
stand a chance. You know, fatbitch. And I'm like, I never even
talked to you. I. Who are You.You know, I was at a. I was at an
Orioles game with my pal, andwe were sitting there, and there

(12:19):
were some guys in their 20ssitting next to me, throwing back
beers. And they were. This guywas sitting next to me, and his pals
were harassing him, hecklinghim because he had to sit next to
the fat chick. Now, contraryto what people might believe, heaviness
and obesity does not causedeafness. So I'm hearing it the entire
time. I'm trying to enjoy thegame. I'm trying. And those who know

(12:44):
me as you see with thebobblehead, I love baseball. And
here I am just being mockedmercilessly like I am invisible.
And so what that did is thatactually caused behaviors in me to
avoid networking happy hours.It caused me to avoid going to events
because those things wouldcome up, those things of, like, you

(13:05):
know, I don't want to feelthat way. I don't want to feel vulnerable
like that. So a lot of thingsI had compartmentalized and it add.
But what it did is opened upthese other things. It made me realize
that some of my behavior inthe professional world was being
tainted because of what hadhappened. Happened to me personally.
You know, I think there'salways this presumption, and I know

(13:25):
I grew up with this of. Ofheavy woman, confident woman, while
she's loud. She's a big woman,so she's loud.
Yeah.
So I would find myself justbeing quiet in board meetings or
quieter meetings. And. Andhere. Here I will acknowledge this.
And Scott, because you knowme, right, Is. I think you probably
say, no, Shannon, I work withyou. I don't remember you ever really

(13:46):
being quiet in board meetings.But there were times that I was.
There are times where it was ahurdle that I had to kind of overcome
because I was worried aboutthat stereotype. I was constantly
worried about being viewed asa bowl just because of my size, just
because of who I was. Yeah.
And the. The outpouring. Imean, you. You published this. This

(14:09):
article, and the. And theresponse was immediate.
The response was immediate.And what was even more startling
was the private messages I gotfrom women who experienced very similar
things but couldn't talk aboutit publicly. They couldn't talk about
what they had done for fear ofretribution in the industry, for

(14:30):
fear of calling somebody out,you know, showing up at a meeting
and being completely ignoredby a client because the client didn't
feel that they were worth thetime of day. And. But still feeling
like they couldn't expressthemselves, couldn't express the
fact that they were treatedlike shit. And, and it's just bad
behavior. But that, that kindof muffle was still on. It was still

(14:54):
being stifled. And, and theresponse was also overwhelmingly.
It was overwhelminglypositive. There were a lot of people
who hadn't really thoughtabout it, which it was, it was funny.
There were people who wouldsay things like, well, I never viewed
you as fat. I never see you asa fat woman. Which any person of
color knows when they'resaying, I don't see you as black,
I don't see you as Hispanic. Idon't see you. It's like, but I am.

(15:16):
No, no. You know, and so thatwas even more kind of eye opening
of. But that is my reality.That is exactly what's going on.
And so let's talk about it.I'm all about getting things out
in the open. That is, that ishaving lack of subtext helps. It's
like, let's just talk aboutit. Let's kind of address it.
Yeah, yeah. You know, it'sinteresting. I mean, we've, as we've

(15:40):
gotten older, right. We metour 20s, we're now in our 50s. And
you know, as you know, I'mdeaf in my left ear and I have gone
out of my way over the yearsto make sure no one knows that I'm
deaf in my left ear. Now at54, about to be 55, I look back and
I think about all of theenergy and time I spent managing

(16:01):
around that when I could havejust said, oh, yeah, I'm deaf on
my left ear. Let me, you know,just so you know, or whatever. Right.
And, and it's, and why are we.Is it that it's just so maddening
that we develop thesenarratives in our mind, these insecurities
and, and, and some of them arequite real and some of them are imagined.

(16:21):
But, you know, here we are,right? Humans dealing with our humanity,
you know. Yeah.
And I was just, I, I justwrote another essay for LinkedIn
and, and my website, a blogentry, and I was talking about the
recent death of Gene Hackman.Really hit me hard because I just,
I have been, I know, such afan. And.
Yeah.
And there are just too manyroles to talk about about his work.

(16:44):
And it got me thinking aboutlegacy. You said that earlier. And
thank you for saying about mylegacy. And I'm reading all these
things about Gene Hackman andMaggie Smith and people who've passed
away and, you know, nobody'ssitting there and going, you know,
well, Gene Hackman was alittle bit on the husky side Nobody.
His legacy has absolutelynothing to do. Yeah, they talk about
how you kind of have, like,everyday looks, but his legacy really

(17:07):
had nothing to do with thefact that, you know, he wasn't Paul
Newman, he wasn't RobertRedford, he wasn't that. You know,
they talked about what hebrought. He was a great neighbor.
He was all these things. Andso you think about your legacy and
it's like, are people reallygoing to remember you because you
were fat? Is that going to bethe first thing they think about?
No. So don't let it occupy somuch time in your head as well. Yeah.

(17:30):
When you're setting your legacy.
Yeah. And also sort of like,you know, it's, you know, in this
culture, American society, andwhat we value and what we, what we
prioritize, you know, youthover age, skinny over big, you know,
what, whatever, you know,white over black. Yeah, right.
Yeah.
And you, I mean, dare I say,Republican over Democrat.

(17:52):
Yeah. I mean.
Right.
Capitalism over, overcommunity, you know.
Right, right, right.
It's, it's, it's all that. AndI think that, you know, one thing
that, that just from thefactual side, and I'm a documentary
filmmaker, so I like doingresearch. I like finding out what
the facts are. And there'sthis myth that if it. Weight loss
and weight is all about justwhat you. What you intake and what

(18:14):
you don't intake, and if youreally kind of think about things
in that simple manner, that'sit, then cancer won't exist. Cancer.
I mean, if everybody justdoes. If you just do blank, then
nobody will get cancer, nobodywill be born with diabetes, nobody
will have autoimmunedisorders. But we're not machines.
And, you know, anecdotally, Iwas raised in a family of three kids.

(18:34):
My older sister, who was sixyears older than me, my brother and
myself. My sister and I wereheavy. My brother had a nickname
of Bones because he could notput weight on skin and bones. We
all ate the same diet, theexact same diet. And he was a swimmer.
I played soccer and basketballand swam equal levels of activity.
Yeah.
So they're just angels. Like,guys, we're not things. Our bodies

(18:58):
run function and some functiondifferently. And to say, well, you
have to be skinny, so you haveto eat like a bird and only have
500 calories a day for therest of your life. Is that living?
No. I want to see the world. Iwant to taste the world. I want to
see everything. I'm not sayingsit down and be like the character
from Meaning of Life, MontyPython's Meaning of life. No, I'm

(19:19):
not saying that that'sgluttony, but I don't want to not
experience what the world hasto offer. Yeah, yeah. So.
Right on, right on.
You know, and you know this,too. One thing, one. One trait about
me is I hate bullies. I hatebullies. I really don't like bullies.
And part of that was. And alot of it was because I was bullied
as a kid, as being a heavykid. But, you know, there's a. There

(19:42):
was a story like when I wasabout six years old, my brother went
to the same elementary schoolas me. And he walked by and he saw
me sitting at a table, and allof a sudden I reached over, hauled
off, and punched this K. Andmy. My brother was mortified, just
absolutely mortified. And Iguess I got sent to the principal's

(20:02):
office and whatnot.
You know, how dare you takejustice into your own hands?
And what it was is my brotherwas like, you were bullying that
kid. I said, no, Nolan. I wasfighting back. I wasn't taking it.
I was being bullied. And thenI said, no, I'm not going to take
it anymore. And he was like,yeah, good for you.

(20:23):
Yeah, right? Oh, now I get it.Okay. Yeah, yeah, no, you're right.
You're right.
Yeah, you're right. You're right.
You want me to punch him?
You're absolutely right. Sothis has been fun when it's been
really nice, just like you dowith the podcast and the workshops
and the lectures and the showsyou give. It's been really nice being
out there and working andtalking to people and just reassuring
them and telling them, look,you're awesome. You're beautiful.

(20:45):
You're fantastic. Stopapologizing. Not only to others,
but stop apologizing to yourself.
Yeah, right.
You're. You're. You're great.You're absolutely great. And. And
that has been a real. Justkind of boost in a time right now
that is in television, bleakfor many of us. Very gloomy, because
we're all in this together.Seriously. We're all in this together,

(21:07):
and we got to boost each otherup. We got to support each other.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And weget to choose, right? We get to choose.
Well, I mean, maybe somepeople don't get to choose, but you
and I were lucky enough,privileged enough that can make choices
and, you know, towards selfdetermination and this. The choice
to give back, the choice tohelp, the choice to, you know, lean

(21:30):
into things that we'repassionate about or we feel important
that are important. For theCommonwealth. You know that. I mean,
what. You know, how rich arewe, right? To be able to. To say
that and do that doesn't meanwe can always pay our bills. But.
But, you know, some people areso poor, all they have is money and.
Right. And so anyway, so thefact that you're, you know, you're
able to leverage, you know, asyou said, sort of our. Our. Our history,

(21:53):
because we did meet, you know,you were. When we met, I was a freelancer
and you were helping me findwork. Then when I told you I was
sick and tired of being afreelancer, I wanted to find a full
time job, you said, well, whydon't you come work for me as an
agent? I think you'd be great.And. And then we start working together.
And it was at that point, atleast speaking for myself, that I

(22:13):
discovered my joy of what Ilike to say, helping artists tell
their stories and promotetheir work.
Yeah, and you're very good atit. You've always been good at it.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.And. But it's that symbiotic relationship
of like, one plus one equalsthree sometimes. Right? And. And
so, you know, here we are now,you know, three decades later, doing

(22:34):
it in different ways. But. Butit is. It is. You know, somebody
was asking me the other daywhy I think art and artists are important
and why I'm passionate aboutart and artists. And. And I said,
well, you know, I think on a.For me, on level, I mean, in a world
where so much feelscompromised, you know, in a world
where so much feels corrupted,you know, we're looking for truth.

(22:57):
We're looking for purecultures. We're looking for things
that, you know, haveintegrity. And to me, generally speaking,
art, artists, have integrity,are true tellers or at least aspire
to be truth tellers and aspireto have integrity. And so they're
sort of. They give me hope,they give me joy, you know, in a
world where, you know, there'sso much to be, you know, concerned

(23:19):
about. But. But anyway, that'swhat animates me every day.
Yeah, I agree. I think thatwhat art does is art reminds us of
our humanity. It reminds us ofwhat makes us human. You know, when
you look at a painting or youlisten to a symphony or Kendrick
Lamar's halftime show, whenyou see that and you get goosebumps

(23:42):
and you get emotional and youfeel something. I. I've never felt
that way looking at aspreadsheet. I don't know. That's
just. Maybe not me, you know,that's just, you know, but when you've
experienced that, that is whatmakes us human. I was. I saw a thing
that was posted last week onInstagram, and it was a. A person

(24:03):
who finds old cameras, and hetakes whatever. If he finds film
in it, he tries to. To. Todevelop the film. And he had found
a. He had found a camera fromlike 1870 or 1890, and he found this
undeveloped film inside of it,and he developed it. And it was a
picture of a cat, thisbeautiful little cat. And I started

(24:25):
tearing up because I'm like,now we'll remember that cat. Now
that cat has made animpression to all the people who
looked at this little video.It's made a moment, just that moment.
And those art moments, whetherit's Dada art, you know, taking down
fascism in the 1920s and 30s,or, you know, abstract Expressionism,
challenging what art means andall of that, I think that those are

(24:47):
things that remind us what wewant to fight for, what we want to
believe in, what we want tolove and what we want to. We want
to cherish. And so I am rightnow, art is needed. We need. We need
art. Because I'm not going toget on some rant about AI. It's.
AI is a technological toolthat is. We've always had technology

(25:08):
come in. You know, people arescared about photography with threatening.
Threatening a painting andpeople scared about video threatening
photography and et cetera. Butthe fact is, is that that's not going
to replace the creative drive.You're not going to, you know, AI
is not going to replaceChristopher Nolan, is not going to
replace Jane Campion. Youknow, that's not going to happen.

(25:29):
You've got to have thosecreators, those artists, those people
who find the way to makecolors and make the world seem as
beautiful or as ugly orwhatever, to touch that, those emotions
inside of you. I know that'swhat I try to do with my work, is
if I can make people laugh,cry, angry, I've succeeded.
Yeah. That's the thing I'vesaid several times in recent months.

(25:52):
It's like, guys, the one thingAI can never be is human. So lean
into. Let's lean into ourhumanity. That is our ultimate competitive
advantage. And let's think ofthese things as a tool. And let's
not stress too much about ituntil it develops opposable thumbs

(26:13):
at the end of the day. Right?
Yeah, we're a long way from exmachina. I think, you know, that.
That is. We're a long way fromthat. And. But it's Yeah, I mean,
we. What's the phrase. What'sthe line from Willy Wonka? We are
the dreamers and we are thedreamers of dreams.
Yes. Right. Yes. Basically,that's it.
It's something along thoselines. We are.
Yeah, that's us.

(26:34):
We're the ones who are goingto create.
As I've said many times, youprobably heard me say, it's like
I sort of think of artists as.As true magicians because they create
something out of nothing.Right. They see something we can't
see. You know, they're,They're. They literally pull rabbits
from hats because, you know,like, there's nothing in the hat

(26:55):
now. They're pulling somethingamazing out of it. And, you know,
they're seers, right? They.They see things that we don't see
and, and, and, and ourmagicians, because they're able to
persevere, to manifest thingsthat. That didn't exist.
Yeah, well, I was. Last year,I was in both Madrid and Barcelona,
and they have just, like, areally good graffiti and mural game

(27:18):
going on there. That isfantastic. And it. I'm sure people
are like, I. And I think I wason a tour, people were like, look
at all the graffiti. It'slike, the graffiti is the people,
the graffiti is the culture.The graffiti tells you what is important,
what is alive, what is on theminds of locals. And, and knowing
how graffiti is impacted interms of politics in Spain, et cetera,

(27:40):
it's just, again, it'sinspiring. They're the truth tellers.
They're the ones who aretelling you. And like you said, seeing
insight, getting insight intosomething that maybe shows us something
we need to know.
Yeah. You know, it's funnythat you mentioned that. So, as you
might know, maybe you don'tknow, but a couple times over the
years, we've gotten calls fromthe US State Department, and they've
wanted us to work with them todo cultural exchange work, first

(28:04):
in Panama and. And then mostrecently in Nepal. And so back, you
know, 15 years ago, whateverit was, my business partner, artist
man one, they sent him toPanama to do. Be in country for about
a month and create murals andwork with local kids. And, you know,
he was on national TV. He metMs. Panama. Like, you know, it's

(28:26):
just like diplomatic. He haddiplomatic immunity. Like, it was.
It was really cool. Right?Well, because we are in the system,
or we were vetted through theState Department. We got a call two
years ago to go to Nepal andcreate murals in Kathmandu and then
down further south, close toIndia, and the. The kind of. The

(28:48):
premise of the whole missionwas they said, well, you know, we
want to. We want to talk.Teach them and talk to them about
how, you know, artisticexpression and graffiti. Graffiti
can be used to. To. To. Todrive discourse and civil disobedience
and, you know, so on and soforth. And. And. And then we started
realizing that, you know,because we started thinking, so wait

(29:09):
a minute, graffiti art is afelony in America. And. And our.
Our government is sending usto Nepal to promote graffiti. I.
Like, this is.
Well, remember Argo? RememberArgo? He was an artist.
Totally, totally. Yeah, yeah,yeah. So it was. It is a powerful

(29:29):
art form, you know, andeveryone knows it, and it is an interesting
place. It was funny. They madesure that the biggest bureau we did
was literally across thestreet from Parliament in Kathmandu.
It was amazing, you know?
Well, I mean, what a crazyconcept, using art as a diplomatic

(29:50):
tool to build internationalrelations and understanding. Who
would have thunk it, Scott?
No, no, that's woke. That'swokeism at its worst, and it must
be eradicated.
Yeah. Because, you know, it'sjust so much better just to have
a diplomatic policy ofpunching someone in the face for
no reason whatsoever. Yeah.
Especially your friends, youknow, Especially your friends. Yeah,

(30:11):
yeah, yeah. We're in thepunching our friends in the face
phase of American diplomacy.
Yeah, yeah. Anyway, anybodywho's been bullied. Anybody who's
been bullied recognizes this 100%.
Oh, that's such a powerfulpoint you're making, because that
is exactly. He's a fuckingbully, and he bullies. That's how
he. That's how he does what hedoes through business, through the

(30:34):
last 50 years, 60 years ofhis. Of his life. Anyway. Yeah. So
fuck him. Fuck bullies.Speaking of, you know, bully in Chief,
you're in D.C. yes. You know,this isn't a political podcast. We
don't have to spend much timetalking about the current state of
American politics. But you arein D.C. you've been in D.C. a long
time. Clearly, D.C. is, youknow, the front lines of the. Of

(30:56):
the current chaos. The hotchaos, that is. How are you faring?
How are you feeling? What'sthe mood like in your neighborhood
these days?
Oh, the mood's horrible. Letme. Let me just. To be clear, you
know, clarify. I am one of thefew people. I am born and raised
in Washington, D.C. and I'vespent the majority of my life in
the D.C. area. My fatherworked for both USAID as well as

(31:17):
on Capitol Hill as an aide inthe House of Representatives. My
sister worked for the StateDepartment and my husband works for
the DoD. So civil service isin my family and just very connected
to it. People who work incivil service are privileged and
feel honored to do a duty ofproviding their expertise to support

(31:37):
our. Support our country, tosupport people. They work really
hard. And one of the. One ofthe things that, you know, I can.
I can say this is that myhusband and I've been together for
eight years. Ten total.Married eight. And when we met, one
thing that we decided is hedecided to move from being a contractor

(31:58):
to a government employeebecause he was willing to sacrifice
the amount of money that couldbe made as a contractor for the stability
of working as a civil service.Man works his ass off. My husband's
job is to ensure thateverybody in the military gets paid.
I think that's a pretty vitaljob. That's a really vital job. That's
what he does. He works his assoff and he does this and he took

(32:21):
this because he knew that myindustry was good. It was. Could
fluctuate. And obviously thatis what has happened. So the mood
in D.C. is a lot of reallyhardworking people who've dedicated
their lives to supporting ourgovernment and the American population
feels misunderstood and feeldamaged, harmed, like under assault.

(32:42):
And the idea of being gleefulat people losing their jobs unexpectedly,
I don't. I don't. I'm notgleeful about anybody losing their
jobs. I don't care if you're atruck driver. I don't care if you're
a movie star. I don't care ifyou're working down at the office.
Nobody should lose their jobsunjustifiably just because. Out of

(33:02):
spite. And that's what itfeels like here. It feels like it
is done recklessly and thatthese are people who have children
and mortgages and loans andfamilies that they need to support.
And as the Washingtonian, ourcity feels very much under assault
because I think a lot ofpeople think Washington, D.C. is
just an amusement park. Andpeople don't live here. People don't

(33:25):
actually have a home here. Iremember when I went to the World
Series in Houston, the peoplesitting behind me asked me if I lived
in Seattle. And I went, no, Ilive in Washington, D.C. and they're
like. I'm like, the Marinersare in Seattle. And they're like,
oh. And it was like, nope,there's 7 million people who live
in the D.C. area. And we allwork hard and have hard working lives.
We're not sitting back eatingbonbons saying, yay, this is great.

(33:49):
And we let those people vote,which is like what a democracy is
about. That's it.
You know, you get to vote.
Doesn't matter if you knowgeography or not.
You know. I asked a questionof Chris Liza, who used to be, used
to be at cnn and he now runslike a weekly blog. And I asked him
a question, I said, do youthink it's too late for people to
truly understand what civilservants do? And he said, sadly,

(34:09):
yeah. He thought that it istoo late that people do not understand
the work that many people,overwhelming majority of people do
as civil servants. You know,it's not just park rangers, it's
studying how to keep waterclean. It's studying what's the best
way to zone a city to makesure that there's not too much growth.
All that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's toolate for this generation. You know,

(34:32):
they'll, they'll, they'll bereminded in a generation or two when,
when you know, the, thecountry is completely dysfunctional
and isn't, isn't working.They, they think government isn't
working now. Just wait tillgovernment stops actually working.
Well, I, I would, I wouldcounter with this and yeah, yeah,
again we're gonna try not tomake politic political. But one can

(34:52):
say everything is political.How is it not working?
Well, exactly.
No, no. If you're sitting inyour home, of course.
Yeah.
And you have three cars andyou live in a nice neighborhood.
Yeah. And you get to go out toeat three times a week and you have
Internet and you have fivestreaming services. Tell me what's
not working for you.
Totally, totally, totally. Youknow, well, it, well yes. And you

(35:16):
know, unfortunately, you know,obviously the so called right has
done a great job ofbrainwashing people. But anyway,
the point is, is that, youknow, and I remember being struck
years ago, I guess maybe I waseven in high school, I was reading
a National Geographic and Icame across a statistic that said
at that time, and this was,had to be late 80s, maybe early 90s,

(35:37):
1991. But anyway, thestatistic I read was like one out
of three Americans have apassport. And, and, and it's probably
worse now, or maybe it'sbetter now, maybe it's the same now.
But the point is mostAmericans don't travel abroad. They
don't have a fucking clue howgood we actually have it, you know,
compared to the rest of the world.
Oh, they have no, no idea.Once when I was in high school, my

(35:59):
father, my, we went out to SanDiego and we went down to Baja California
to get some lobsters. So wehad to drive through Tijuana and
whole thing. I was 16 yearsold, brother was 21, 20. And we saw.
And here were some reallyrundown shacks on the way, heading
out towards the water andjust, you know, not good. I. And
I. I can't remember which oneof us said it, but one of us said,

(36:20):
look how poor they are. And myfather said, no, think about how
rich we are. More people inthe world live like them than live
like us. Always remember that.
Yeah.
And when you put that inperspective and you think about how
unbelievably rich our countryis. Unbelievably rich. And I have

(36:42):
met some of the most wonderfulpeople who didn't have around the
world, who didn't have indoorplumbing, who, you know, live in.
Live, you know, having morethan one car, and that car is still
held together. A car is heldtogether by duct tape. And they live
happy lives. So how isgovernment not functioning for you?
What is not happening for you?That's not making you happy? And

(37:03):
if it's because you're not anInstagram influencer with 2 million
followers, you know, let'sreally, really talk about that.
That's right. That's right.
Now I feel like I'm yelling,you whippersnappers. Yeah.
So I'm going to put you on thespot here because you've launched
this new venture, Padlin, andyou have an incredible list of services.

(37:27):
You have creative IdeaGeneration. You have strategic collaboration
and workshops, Obviously, youspeak and do media like we're doing
today. You produce long,short, obviously, problem resolution
for teams and projects. Right.Mentoring young creatives. Emotional
support, Auntie. I need that.That's what I need.

(37:50):
I was wondering if you coulddo emotional support, Auntie. Yeah,
that's it.
And by the way, I'm now thatI'm scrolling down. Yeah, your page
here. I'm wondering if yourcolleague, Carol Tomko is my friend
John, Tomko's sister. Does shehave a brother in la? John Tomko,
Carol.
He might used to. She used to.She's responsible for many really

(38:10):
successful documentaries.
She used to work in Seattle.Right, for. That's it.
Yeah, that's totally interesting.
That's John's sister. That.Talk about a small world. That's
hilarious. So I haven't metCarol, but when you talk to Carol
next, just say that yourfriends. Scott is friends with her
brother.
No problem. I'll bring thatup, Carol.
Shout out. Tom Coast. Yes.Anyway, so I'm putting you on the

(38:32):
Spot because, you know, you'vegot all these incredible services
and so let's, let's play,let's do a little role playing here.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'mgonna be your client and you're going
to help me workshop somethings here because as we've already
indicated, you know, the medialandscape is, is been hugely disrupted.
It's incredibly fluid anddynamic. Nobody really knows what

(38:52):
the fuck is happening. They,they, they, they, they, they want,
they want to act like theyknow, but that's because, you know,
that no one knows. But here Iam, a lowly little independent, you
know, media publishing andservices company dedicated to the
arts, right? I'm, you know, mywhole passion is, you know, helping
artists tell their stor work,right? If it was 30 years ago and

(39:15):
I was trying to do this, I'dprobably start a cable network dedicated
to the arts, right? So 40years ago, right? Because, you know,
when the cable, when cabletelevision came on, it was like all
this new, new bandwidthcapacity and they had to fill it
with content. I mean, peopleforget that ESPN was launched because
basically they needed to like,they needed content and they started
broadcasting local high schoolfootball games or something, right?

(39:38):
Like that was like theoriginal origin story of espn, right?
So, you know, and so then youcould get into lifestyle, dedicated,
lifesty, all channels, right?So it's like, oh, mtv, music, eventually
things like, you know, FoodNetwork and so on and so forth, right?
And you know, cable businessis still a good business. It's a
shrinking business. It's a,you know, it's changing certainly,

(39:58):
you know, but as if I'm tryingto be, you know, a sort of contemporary
kind of next gen kind of mediaorganization serving, not just serving
artists, but serving peoplewho love like us, love creativity,
love art, love, love artistsand want to keep, you know, stay
informed, be entertained and,and be served, you know, interesting
content. I mean, you know,Shannon, how do I do this? How do

(40:23):
I do this in this crazy fluidlandscape? I feel like, you know,
I have to be everywhere allthe time. Yeah, I feel like, I feel
like, oh, I need a presence onYouTube, I need a presence on Instagram,
I need a presence onPinterest, I need a presence on what's
the. Well, anyway, I need tobe everywhere, right? How does one,

(40:43):
a media brand in such a fluid,dynamic media landscape?
Well, I think one of thethings you said kind of struck it.
You said that you're, you helpartists tell stories. That's what
you do. And through promotion,through. How do you Express that.
Well, if you want to tellstories, then you're getting a little
bit beyond just staticimagery. Sorry about that. Static
imagery. You're getting moreinto dialogue like this. So I would

(41:06):
shove Pinterest aside. Iwouldn't deal with that. I wouldn't
deal with things that are juststatic. I'd look at what is going
to be a way to keep it in thedynamic. The way that you're strong
and you're strong, yourstrength is interaction with people.
You walk into a room,everybody likes you. Scott, you are
just got this personality, agenuine personality. You are not
full of shit, right? You havea genuine personality that is warm

(41:29):
and welcoming and people likeyou. So how do you expand on that?
And one of the things I talkto clients about is moving away from
roles and focusing on whatyour skill sets, focusing on what
your strengths are, and thenbuilding from that. So I think that
the older generation, ourgeneration, we think of everything
in roles and silos, and thenew generation kind of have it figured
out. It's more like this is myskill set. Where can the skill set

(41:52):
kind of work?
So that's interesting.
Yeah, it. Because. Because Isaw this great thing where it talked
about, like, what Santa Clausdoes, and two different posts on
LinkedIn, and one was, santaClaus delivers toys. Then the next
one was like, six sentenceslong of, like, global distributor
of joy, you know,organizational mastermind of factory.

(42:13):
It's like all these things,all the skills. So I think for you,
you have that connection, andI think what you bring is a discovery
of something new. Who wants todiscover that something new? Well,
I don't know if it'snecessarily the artists themselves,
but it's the people like me,people who have disposable income,
people who want to buy art. Iknow my midlife crisis was buying

(42:35):
artwork, right? Is getting tothem, is how do you bring that to
them? So I. I'd identify thataudience, target audience, probably
through YouTube or sadly,Facebook, because Facebook, our generation's
still on Facebook, not theyounger generation. And deliver that
to them in a regular basis.And then you work in finding ways

(42:56):
to monetize that. You know, Imean, there's. That's the things
you can bring of, like. Like,you know, do you do little movies?
You sell a subscription thinglike Patreon? You know, my favorite
thing on Patreon is you mustremember this podcast. It's. It's
just fantastic. So I thinkit's identifying those two things,
pivoting with that, andknowing your skill set is people

(43:16):
like being with you. And youbring that joy. You bring that, that
joy is infectious and peoplecatch it and then they want to go
on the ride with you. Sowhat's the best way to bring that
to them? Because that's theskill set you bring.
Well, thank you for that. And,and yeah, that's such an interesting
way of thinking about sort of,because you're right. Like we, you
know, we're, we're of acertain generation, Gen X bitches

(43:40):
anyway, we're Gen X. But wealso come from a tradition that,
you know, definitely is moreclassic, right. In terms of, you
know, kind of hierarchical,kind of, you know, structures or,
you know, maybe siloed kindsof organized whatever. Right. And
we're living in a time where,you know, it is sort of dog eat dog,
every man for themselves.Everybody can be an entrepreneur,

(44:01):
everybody can be a brand,everybody can be an influencer now.
So it's like, okay, well how,how, how am I going to break through?
Well, to your point, you know,double down on your uniqueness, double
down on your unique skill set,capacity to bring and, and, and,
and then, you know, figure outhow to monetize it from there. That's.

(44:22):
Yeah, I appreciate that. Ihadn't really thought of it quite
like that before. And yeah,it's just, you know, it is, it is
fascinating time because, youknow, I, part of it is also you,
you kind of, we're taught.Well, we're talking a little bit
about, you know, ourgeneration versus younger generation,
what have you. And it feelslike on a certain level you have
to be really clear about,well, who, who am I actually trying

(44:43):
to talk to? Right. Because ifI am trying to talk to fellow Gen
Xers, well, I better well beon Facebook, right? But if I'm trying
to talk to 15 to 25 year olds,I gotta be on Tick Tock.
Yeah, that's it. Yep.
Right, yeah.
And there's no difference,there's no difference between that
and the way it is intelevision. You know, if you want

(45:04):
to talk to older generation,you get on Viacom Networks. If you
want to talk to the youngergeneration, well, now it's YouTube.
Everybody's on YouTube. Who,you know, they don't have cable or
streaming whatnot. If you wantto feel comedy, you know, Peacock
likes to identify themselvesas being the kings of comedy and
you know, those, those events.So it's the same thing. It's identifying
where your audience is andidentifying what your skill set is.

(45:25):
And you're right. Everybodythinks they can be an innovator,
they can be an Influencer.They can be an entrepreneur. You
know, you can be, you can bethe train wreck entrepreneur, you
know, the people who posttrain wreck stuff, or you can be
the one that genuinelyconnects with people, that builds
a much longer type of buildingrelationship, much longer element
of, you know, you know, lookagain, the reason I hired you 30

(45:50):
years ago is because you care.You know, and, and, and I can say
that some people pretend theycare and they don't, but you care.
You actually care. And so evenoffering kind of a webinar where
everybody pays 10 bucks tosay, here, this is the best way to
get your artwork out, becauseI believe in you. Yeah. Yeah. Because.

(46:13):
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for that.No, it's, it's. We, yeah, we all
have our strengths. And, andyou know, it's, it's funny when I,
you know, if I'm honest, like,you know, like anybody else, right.
Like the amount of time thatI've. That I've looked back and I,
and I think about how, howinsecure really, you know, that,

(46:33):
that I've. How much time I'vespent feeling insecure. I'm not good
enough. I'm not smart enough.I'm not this, I'm not that. I'm not
this, I'm not that. We live ina society where we're constantly
being told we're not enough.We don't have the right car, the
right thing, the right, youknow, this, that or the other. And
it just makes it just. The neteffect is, is one of insecurity.
It's like, okay, you know, andyet maybe we're just perfect as we

(46:57):
are.
Well, the people who thinkthey're perfect are people we don't
want to spend time with.
Well, there's that.
There's that. No, there'sthis. There's this great book written
by author named AlisonForgale. I think it's. I don't know
how to say her last names. F,F, R A G A L E called likable, Badass.
And it's about female dynamicsin the boardroom, about how many
women feel they can't. Theyeither have to be likable or they

(47:17):
have to be a badass. And thedeal is you can be both. Like, well,
badass. You can be both. Butone of the points she makes about
imposter syndrome, that thingof like, I don't belong here, I shouldn't
be here, I'm not worthyenough, I'm not smart enough, I'm
not good looking enough, is away to view that is. That's for creative
folks, that's just our innerdrive saying, you can do more. Come
on, let's do more. Let's domore. Let's do it.

(47:37):
Let's.
Let's push forward. And forme, look, there are days where I
wake up and I'm like, what amI doing? Oh, my God, this is crazy.
What am I doing? Just, youknow, just do whatever. Make widgets.
It's fine. So those are daysthat it's like, I say I have 30%
confidence, 70% feel horrible.If I can just the majority of time

(47:57):
be 60, 40, maybe 70, 30.That's what I'm aiming for. We don't.
We're never going to reachperfection, but we want to avoid
being. Feeling like completelylost is if we can just tilt the scales
enough.
Well, but the other. Yeah, Imean, not to interrupt, but I mean,
the other thing is, it's.We're sold this narrative that, that,
well, if you don't have amillion followers, for example, then

(48:20):
you're a failure. Theperception that a million followers
equals a million dollars. Fameequals fortune. Right. And that's
bullshit. You and I both knowfame does not equal fortune.
No.
And. And just because somebodyhas a million followers on something
doesn't mean they're making amillion dollars. You know, this idea
that all you really need are,you know, there was a book of, I

(48:41):
think, a thousand realfollowers or whatever it was called,
but this idea that you have agroup, maybe by some numbers, a smaller
group, but it's quite. It'squality over quantity. It's. It's
just that rich, you know,working towards, you know, developing
rich relationships and rich,you know, rich content or meaningful,
you know, versus, you know,you know, content that has mass appeal

(49:06):
or something.
Yeah, that's exactly it. Imean, and we learned this when we
were. When we. When we workedat a staffing agency. You can go
and you can get a hundredpeople that you pay $20 an hour to,
and that takes how much timeto manage a hundred people? Or if
you get 20 people that youbill $100 an hour, a lot less man
hours, manage 20 people over ahundred. So if you identify. I mean,

(49:30):
that's just. I'm not aneconomist. I'm not, you know. What's
his name? Galloway. ProfessorGalloway. So that's just kind of.
Yeah, you know what I'mtalking about. That's just kind of
simple economics. And thesimple economics is you can go and
hustle and try to find amillion followers and work every
day, do churn, churn, churn,but if you find 200 who are really
committed to what you do, youknow, they'll pay. I mean, I'm spending,

(49:51):
I'm spending 20 bucks a weekbuying tokens for a game I play.
And it's toss away money on myphone. Right. But if it's $20, like,
to be a part of a group thatyou feel you welcomed and you're
heard and inspires you, thatworks. And, you know, it doesn't
have to be the Paul ThomasAnderson of the world. Be that. Don't

(50:14):
be Marvel. Marvel's fine. I'mnot dissing everybody. I'm not dissing
superhero. I'm not doing that.I'm just, I want to make that clear.
I don't want to get in that fight.
Yeah, but it, but it is how.It is interesting how really smart,
experienced people are, are,are forgetting or, or, or being fooled.
You know, I'm. By this newdigital reality that, that we live

(50:34):
in. You know, I'm, I'mremembering very specific examples.
So years ago we got hired. Youmay not know, there's a trade show
in New York that happens everyyear at Javits called Certex. Insertex
is the. Well, at least it usedto be anyway. Sort of. I don't know
if it's the world's largest. Ithink it was sort of art licensing

(50:55):
show.
Okay.
Okay. So if you're amanufacturer, if you're a brand,
if you're whatever, like, andyou're looking for artwork for your
fabrics, you know, you know,wrapping paper, whatever, you go
here and you meet artists andyou license their art, right?
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah. And really cool. And sowe got hired several years ago. They

(51:17):
were curious. They, theydidn't know. It's all. They're, they're
owned by Emerald Exhibitionsand, and they were seeing the kind
of explosion of kind of whatwe might call urban art, graffiti
art, street art. And theydidn't know how to bring those artists
into Java, into Surtex atJavits, because, you know, quite
frankly, most of the artiststhere were female artists that were

(51:40):
doing, you know, rainbows andunicorns and owls and all that stuff.
Right.
And so there's a market forthat, by the way. There is a market
for this huge market.
I mean, that's a huge marketfor that.
Yeah, yeah.
But they, but they, but theysaw this kind of emerging thing.
And so anyway, they hired usto, to help them bring this art form
into Surtex. Right. So theygave us a thousand square feet. We

(52:01):
curated this Big exhibition wehad, you know, all these artists
set up. And I'll never forgetthis woman from Macy's came in and
she pointed to this artist,Kodak, that we had, and his name
was Kodak. And she says, oh,my God, he's amazing. You know, perfect
for us, perfect for Macy's.Tell me more. And of course, you
know, putting on the oldconsultative hat, you know. Yeah,

(52:26):
a consultative sales hat. Isaid, well, that's wonderful. I'm
so glad, you know, thatyou're, that you're interested. This
is Kodak, and, And, you know,he's, you know, based in LA and so
on and so forth and, well, youknow. What company are you with?
Oh, I'm with Macy's. I've beenwith Macy's, you know, 18 years.
And, you know, I just really.He'd be perfect for us. And I'm like,
well, that's great. I said, behappy to, you know, talk to you about

(52:47):
him and set up a meeting,whatever the case might be. And then
she interrupts. And I said,well, I think he has about 30. Only
35,000. Yeah, I don't think.And I said, wait a minute. I said,
you just had a visceralreaction. You know, your 18 years
of experience, you know, told.Tells you that this artist is right
for Macy's, the brand. You hadthis visceral reaction and now you're

(53:08):
gonna, you're gonna, you'regonna undercut your own good judgment
because he has 35,000followers. I'm like that. You know,
it's just this cognitivedissonance of like, like, like, oh,
followers equals risk, youknow, or, you know, like, it's a
metric for risk. It's, it'sjust, it's such a. We're just, we're,
we've. We. We've just waitedinto this world where, I don't know,

(53:30):
we think quantity meansquality, and that's not necessarily
the case.
Yeah, we think, we think thatthere's going to be those synergies
and things where that personin Macy's is thinking, well, look,
if they've got a millionfollowers, then that's a million
people who might come toMacy's. And it's like, what makes
you think that that millionfollowers who follows that artist

(53:50):
is going to be a client whowould ever go to Macy's?
Exactly.
You know, what, what are you.They're not, they may not even go
to Macy's. The people whofollow them on Instagram. Right.
And I mean, I know I ran intothis in television and I'm. You know,
and is. We would bring in.This is a decade ago, we'd bring
in someone who was a YouTube.YouTube artist, and they'd say, no,

(54:11):
that's not really appropriatefor the television marketplace. Or
they'd say, okay, well, wewant to own everything. And it's
like, okay, no, no. And then Ithink slowly people are realizing
the YouTube audience is notthis audience. They're not the same.
They're different audiences.And if you have someone who's gonna
appeal to both, there's enoughroom for everybody to make money

(54:32):
on both platforms and they canfeed each other. Right. But I think
we still get into thesemindsets of no. Nope. They're either
this or they're that, or ifthey own this, then this supports
that. And it's like. Like, no,you again, you just had a visceral
reaction. It made you stop. Itmade you excited, and you talked
yourself out of it because youdidn't have the vision. You didn't

(54:53):
have. Have vision. And that.That's what I always get on about.
AI. It's like, AI would havetold you never to make everything
everywhere at once. It wouldhave said, no, absolutely not. Don't
do this. Yeah, yeah, look howgreat that is.
Yeah. I sort of, you know, andafter that conversation, as I've
thought about it over theyears, it's just sort of like. Like,
you know, it's sort of. It'slazy thinking, right? Yeah, it's

(55:15):
lazy thinking. It's like, oh,this, you know, X. X equals Y. No,
not. Not necessarily. Youknow, And. And so, yeah, it's. It's
a. It's a fascinating time,you know, I have a confession to
make. So. So I hope thatbefore I die.
Yeah.
Which, by the way, could betoday. Today's. No, I have a confession.

(55:39):
Before I die, whenever thatis, I. I hope you and I are able
to collaborate and work on aproject together.
Oh, that'd be awesome.
That'd be great. We gotta findsomething. It just would be such
a delight. I don't know whatit would be. It's funny. I, you know,
saw the key art here on yourwebsite, Inside the Mind of a Cat,

(56:00):
and the first idea that cameto mind was, oh, Shannon and I should
do a project called Inside theMind of an Artist.
Oh, that's chaos.
We need a lot of booze forthat one.
This is a challenge because.Did. Did you see a complete unknown,
the Bob Dylan bio?
Not yet, no.
Timothy tried, you know, hetried, but it's so hard to get into

(56:21):
the Genius of an artist. It'sso hard to really kind of recognize
it and what it is. I thinklike one of my all time favorite
films. Okay, anybody who's anartist, you need to go find this
film. It's called 32 ShortFilms About Glenn Gould. It's a Canadian
film from like 1991. It is, itis one of the best insights into
a creative artist mind. It issuch a great movie. Right. That is

(56:44):
one of the best movies everseen about, about what it is to be
an artist. And I would love todo something like that because I
think it's provocative and Ithink people, people want to know
what inspires people to do it,what, what gets, gets that itch.
And one thing about art, Iwant to hammer on this. I know we
need to wrap up is, is art isabout failing all the time.

(57:07):
All the time.
It's, it's. You fail sofrequently and I think that's actually
good. I think it's a goodlesson, good life lesson to learn
is to learn how to fail.
Yeah, no, that's so true. It'sso true. Well, because that's the
thing. Because I mean, the,the answer I was. Well, one of the
answers that we know about,you know, the mind of an artist is
that there is no such thing.

(57:28):
No.
Right. Like, like, like it'snot a monolithic community. Right.
And, and, and, and every,every artist is just, you know, this,
this unique reality and, and,and, and, and yet it's these, these
worlds, you know, of, of justthis exciting, dynamic worlds. That's
why I love going into artiststudios. Right, because you're literally

(57:50):
walking into their mind onsome level. Right. It's like you
walk in every, in every artiststudio is unique and different. It's
idiosyncratic. Right. For them.
Yep.
Anyway, I don't know.
Well, let's, let's figure outsomething. We're all on new journeys.
We're evolving. We'reconstantly evolving.
So we're evolving to, to ourtruest selves in the highest consciousness,

(58:12):
which may.
Be me being a blind cutter atLowe's, which if I'm a blind cutter
at Lowe's, I'll be happy atit. I'll be happy doing it. Yeah.
Let's just do that.
So what do you. So, okay, so Iknow the high, the highlight of your
day was of course, talking to me.
Oh, absolutely.
So, and when we, when weadjourn here in a minute, what's
the rest of your day looklike? What is the. Is the founder

(58:33):
of Padlin Creative going towork on today?
Well, the, the founder of PALCreative flew in from Idaho last
night because I gave a lectureat the University of Idaho on Monday
about how scientists canbetter express the work that they're
doing in a much more creativeand narrative way. Which again, I
love it. It's just a lot offun. So I'm going to recover, still

(58:53):
recover because I'm old andget jet lagged easily. And then I'm
going to go to the gym with myhusband who has gone from triple
bypass to doing box jumps. AndI'll just sit there and be in awe
of him and amazing. Be sothrilled. So that is a typical day
of paddling creative and oh,my laptop will be up and I'll continue
to be writing a script as wellas organizing a webinar I've got
coming up in two weeks and acoffee clatch I have coming up. You

(59:17):
know, one thing about doingthis is that you have so many balls
in the air. It's like, whatare you going to address today?
Yeah, that's right. You betterknow how to juggle.
But you are you constantlylike me where I'm like. And I'm literally
looking up in the air of like,okay, that ball, that ball. That.
What am I going to do? What amI going to do now? You know, and
people like, are you okay? I'mlike, yeah, no, I just thinking that's
just the way my brain thinks.

(59:37):
Yeah, no, I'm the same, youknow, I'm the same way. And you know,
yeah, it's, it's. We couldtalk an hour just about this issue
in particular because I kindof feel like I've developed adult
ADHD because, because it isreally hard to stay focused on any

(59:58):
one thing because when you'reresponsible for so many different
things and then you don't turnyour reminders, your notifications
or your email off, you'refocused on something and then, and
then, and then an email comesthrough about something completely
different. But that's hot too,and urgent because you know, it's
got to be resolved. And if youdon't deal, you're the only person

(01:00:20):
that can deal with it. So yougot to deal with it. So you're constantly
just doing this and. Yeah, andit's, it's certainly not for everybody.
I think some of us do itbetter than others and you know,
maybe not as good as we could,but it is. Yeah, it every day is
an adventure and it's, youknow, we don't get bored, right?
Yeah, we don't the problem.
It's funny. When things gowrong in certain things, we just

(01:00:40):
kind of handle it and we letit roll.
Yeah.
But if my computer getsglitchy, then rage monster comes
in. It's amazing the littlethings that come out. You know, the
tiny, itty bitty thingsthat'll cause the rage monster to
come out.
Rage monster.
I mean, I could have a brokendown car be like, oh, that's fine.
You know, my computer reboots randomly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, myGod. You and I are the same. You

(01:01:00):
know, Channing will say to me,and for those who don't know, Channing's
my wife. Channing will say tome that, you know, she's like. Like,
she's like. This hits the fanin some major way and you don't freak
out. She's like, but you loseyour keys and you think that the
world is coming to an end. I'mlike, yeah, yeah. Because would you
want me to freak out when theis real, or would you, you know,

(01:01:21):
like, I. You know, youprioritize your battles.
It's like, totally fine. Interms of a big crisis, it's okay.
I lose the remote, which isdaily. I lose the remote.
Exactly.
And I've gotten to that agenow where I have multiple remotes
now backup remotes, because Ikeep losing the remote. Why do they
make them? So now again, I.It's like it needs to be like a giant
brick. We need to go back tothe old kind of like, you know, Remember

(01:01:43):
back when it was, like, 120channels and it was this big platform
and you had to push the button?
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So. Well, this has been fun.Anytime. Maybe we should just do
something where it's justwacky hijinks with Scott and Shannon.
Oh, my God, that'd be so good.That'd be so good. You know, we could
be the Scott Galloway and CaraSwisher of our. Of our space. Like

(01:02:05):
I was going to say, we'd.
Be the Shields and Yarnels ofour generation. And that's really
dating for people who are.
I tell you what, I'm just sograteful, Shannon, for our friendship
of all these years. I'm sograteful for you and. And what you've
meant to me. I'm so gratefulthat, of course, you took time out
of your busy schedule to sitdown and good luck living your life

(01:02:28):
in. In D.C. during thesetumultuous times. You know, we are.
You know, I don't know. Imean, we. We. We have a choice. Some
people, you know, want to Benegative. Some people want to be.
Feel like. People like us, youknow, we. We compelled to put out
positive energy in the world.So let's just keep doing that.
And we're not afraid to throwa punch if we have to, for bullied.

(01:02:50):
You know what some people say?Fight, fight, fight. I say resist,
resist, resist. And stand upfor truth. Stand up to bullies. And.
Yeah, you know, it's funnybecause, you know, in this particular
environment, I mean, you'veknown me a long time, never necessarily
been a very political person,but by the way, our generation Gen
X was very unique. We sort ofgrew up in a special time of prosperity

(01:03:12):
and peace and, And, And. Andwhen I graduated high school, man,
my. I couldn't wait to get outinto the world. My future was bright
and. And kids graduating highschool today, I don't think feel
optimistic about the futurelike we did.
No, again, I don't. Maybe it'sHunger Games. I mean, there was a

(01:03:32):
lot of dystopian novels whenthey were growing up, a lot of dystopian
things. You know, I think thatit's too much information. I think
also sometimes we just need tostep back and really appreciate what
we have.
Totally.
I mean, when you appreciatewhat you have, and they say, see
the world, read, get to meetpeople, experience other things,
be very thankful for everything.
You know what? You know, theone thing this. This, this I have

(01:03:53):
the. The solution for allmen's problems.
Okay, let's do it.
More dancing. Yeah, moredancing. If people would just dance
more. Yeah. I think, you know,some of these problems would be solved.
And you know what to call outto dear friend of mine who passed
away. Keith Kozell, just. Hewas an incredible creative genius,
just an amazing human being.When I was in college, I was worried
about dancing in clubs,dancing at bars and whatnot. And

(01:04:15):
he said, just be yourself.Just do. Feel. Feel confident in
who you are. And our friendswere playing on the stage and they
were doing a cover Pixiesdance. The manta Ray and Keith grabbed
me. We jumped up on the stageand we did the manta ray for everybody
at the bar. Just do the mantaray. Be yourself. Dancing. It'll
make you feel great. I agree.I agree.
More dancing people. You heardit here.

(01:04:35):
Love it.
Shannon, you're the best.Thank you, my friend.
Thank you. You're very dear tome. Thank you.
Thanks for listening to theNot Real Art podcast. Please make
sure to like this episode,write a review, and share with your
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all of our new episodes. NotRelart is produced by Crew West Studios
in Los Angeles. Our thememusic was created by Ricky Peugeot

(01:04:58):
and Desi Delauro from the bandParlor Souls. Not Real Art is created
by we edit podcasts and hostedby Captivate. Thanks again for listening
to Not Real Art. We'll be backsoon with another inspiring episode
celebrating creative cultureand the artists who make it.