Join Nate on a gripping episode of (not so) Secret Dads Business as he tackles the disturbing topic of child exploitation. Special guest, Akhim Dev, a renowned documentary filmmaker and investigative journalist, shares his experiences and insights from his global adventures covering stories on this crucial issue. Akhim's work extends to his podcast, "The Children in the Pictures," and his feature documentary of the same name available on SBS on Demand.
In this episode, Nate and Akhim delve into the distinction between the terms, child pornography and child exploitation material, shedding light on the global efforts to redefine terminology and prosecute these crimes effectively. Akhim emphasizes the importance of digital evidence in bringing perpetrators to justice.
Listeners will be captivated by Akhim's journey, which led him to spend years with Taskforce Argos, a law enforcement agency dedicated to combating child exploitation. He recounts a chilling encounter with a prisoner that exposed the extent of online child exploitation, prompting him to venture into the dark web and collaborate with Taskforce Argos.
As the conversation unfolds, Akhim reveals the unprecedented level of international cooperation among law enforcement agencies such as Taskforce Argos, the FBI, Homeland Security and Interpol. The emotional toll on these dedicated individuals adds a profound dimension to the discussion.
Throughout the episode, Nate and Akhim stress the importance of raising awareness about child exploitation and understanding its pervasive nature. Listeners will gain insights into the intricate networks and communities operating on the dark web, engaging in the trade of explicit material involving children.
But that's not all. In a thought-provoking segment, Nate and Akhim shift the focus to the evolving landscape of child protection in the digital age. Drawing from personal experiences and expert insights, they explore the unique risks each age group faces online, from predators disguised as friends to unsupervised internet access. The discussion highlights the need for vigilance and responsible digital parenting, offering practical tips and cautionary tales.
Join us for this eye-opening episode of (not so) Secret Dad's Business, as Nate and Akhim unravel the complexities of child exploitation, shine a light on the critical work of law enforcement agencies, and advocate for a better understanding of this pervasive issue in society.
In addition, dive into the alarming shift in child safety concerns from physical spaces to the digital world, and gain valuable insights on safeguarding our children's well-being in the digital age.
You can find Akhim's documentary, "The Children In The Pictures" on SBS on Demand at
www.sbs.com.au/ondemand/tv-program/the-children-in-the-pictures/1957876291797
or you can listen to the podcast of the same name at https://www.listnr.com/podcasts/the-children-in-the-pictures or wherever you stream your podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Listen to discretion is advised this episode contains topics of
child, exploitation material, child, sexual, abuse online,
predators. And the like, please keep this
in mind. When deciding where, and when to
listen to this episode, are you new to fatherhood?
(00:20):
Not sure if you're dating to your full potential, well,
you've come to the right place. Most ads aren't talking to each
other about their lives as dads.Look at some kind of secret.
Well, this is the podcast that takes the secret out of
fatherhood. This is not so secret dad's
business. G'day g'day and welcome to
(00:50):
another episode of not-so-secretdad's business.
So I'm bringing you guys a bit of a heavy one today, but I feel
that this is definitely something that as parents.
We need to be talking about, in this episode, I have special
guest Hakeem. Dev Hakeem has are renowned
documentary filmmaker and investigative journalist and he
(01:10):
shares his experiences and insights from his Global
Adventures. Covering the stories.
On this crucial issue, a Kim's work extends to his podcast for
children in the pictures and hisfeature.
Tree of the same name, which is available on SBS, on demand as
we talked, a caiman. I delve into the distinction
(01:31):
between the terms of child, pornography and child
exploitation material shedding the light on the global efforts
to redefine the terminology and to prosecute these crimes.
Effectively Hakeem also emphasizes the importance of
digital evidence, in bringing perpetrators to Justice.
Hakeem ended up spending about eight years with task.
(01:53):
Sr glass which is a law enforcement agency dedicated to
combating child or exploitation and it was actually a
conversation with a prisoner adapt to be released.
That led him to go down the rabbit hole to look at the
extent of online child exploitation, which then led to
him venturing into the dark web and collaborating with task
(02:15):
force Argos throughout this episode Hakeem.
Stresses the importance of raising awareness about child
exploitation. And understanding that pervasive
nature and he shares some of hisinsights into the intricate
networks and communities operating on the dark web
engaging in the trade of explicit material involving
(02:36):
children. Now later on, in the episode we
do end up shifting our Focus to the evolving landscape of child
protection in the digital age. We discuss the unique risks that
each age group of children, faceonline from predators disguised
as These two unsupervised internet access.
So join us for this eye-opening episode as Hakeem and I unravel
(03:01):
the complexities of child exploitation was shine a light
on the critical work of international law, enforcement
agencies and advocate for a better understanding of this
issue in society. So without much more to say, let
me introduce my guest Hakeem Debhyah cave.
(03:36):
Thank you so much for joining meon not-so-secret, dad's
business. And thank you so much for your
patience with me. Is that since I first touch base
with you, you've been all over the world and, and I've been in
your inbox, just go. And how you came.
I really want to touch base withyou.
Hi, buddy. How you doing?
So thanks so much for your patience and thanks for being in
(03:58):
there. Not a problem and look, you
know, I think the apology goes both ways I'm, you know I was
more than happy to be a part of this.
Yeah. Just some I guess I timings were
a bit off. And yeah.
Had to go and pay the bills and yeah.
Visit some really interesting places Ukraine and just I just
(04:20):
got off the Plane last night from Baghdad, which was a real
eye-opener. Yeah man, I'll I was following
you all your adventures on on Instagram and journalism seems
to really have its ups and downs.
I think that's good. Like at least you were able to
enjoy some of your time while working as well.
(04:40):
Sure, it's always good to stop and smell the roses.
I mean look I I don't really consider myself a journalist as
such. I know I've done some
investigative work but I mean I'm a documentary maker We make
films. And now we discovered this
exciting medium of podcast whichis you know it's an incredible
way of you know, really digging deep and giving yeah, just just
(05:06):
basically more information to our viewers.
Look, you know that said, the podcast is a part of a suite of
content. I'd say we made a feature
documentary, the children in thepictures, same title All which
is on SBS on demand. So just need to give that a
quick plug SBS have been fantastic.
(05:28):
And yeah, because of the becauseof the interest.
Now, in this subject, they've actually given us an extension.
So yeah. If you kind of want to see the
film version of it online on demand?
Yeah. Absolutely.
In fact it was the podcast that I actually found on Spotify that
(05:51):
But I've got to know who you were a little bit and I found
the podcast purely by accident. You know, Spotify does this
great thing where it recommends different podcasts for you.
And I'm very much a true crime bath and, you know, your
podcast, the children in the pictures, you know, that's very
much True Crime and it was It's not.
(06:17):
It was uncomfortable, it was confronting it was.
It was interesting. It was.
All right, 9, and I listened to the the whole podcast, the first
time in a day, while I was at work and I went home and I had
to have some time to myself and ended up crying, you know,
because I'm just thinking about all these poor children.
(06:39):
But one thing I do want to touchon within your podcast is and I
think we do need to clarify these from the get-go is that We
are not talking about child pornography, we're talking about
child, exploitation material here, what's the difference
here? Because everybody knows what
child would cause a child porn. But what is child exploitation
(07:01):
material? And why is this important that
we make this clear? Look, another one that's really
gaining. A lot of momentum globally is
see Sam. So SI ese.
Child sexual abuse material. It's starting to get its way
(07:22):
into the u.s. Press.
They're the ones who refer to itmostly as child pornography.
And there's a reason for that. I mean, that's how they
prosecute the cases. It's called child pornography in
their statutes and there's a whole bunch of people who are
fighting tooth and nail to get it changed.
And yeah part of the part of thepodcast and a part of, you know,
(07:45):
the awareness that we're raisinghis to do that.
We are lobbying pretty hard in the states.
I actually had a congressional screening of the doc.
Oh, which was yeah, I mean, a great honor to present and also
represent your country, you know, in a funny kind of way,
you know, like a lot of people really acknowledge Australia as
(08:05):
being the tip of the spear in terms of the work that the
investigative work that we've done.
But also you know, in terms of lawmaking and the infrastructure
that's been created around too. Help keep a kid side and I'll
graffiti what is pornography? Pornography is material that is
there to titillate. It's there to cause sexual
(08:28):
arousal. So material involving children
that cause sexual arousal will only be regarded as pornography
at by the people that are aroused by it.
So I think it's really, it's a no-brainer for me.
Why we make that distinction? And because the police the tech
(08:50):
companies and the ngos government know that this is
digital evidence. This this is evidence of crimes
been committed. The people who get aroused by
it, for them. It's been a goofy.
So I Line in the Sand needs to be drawn.
I don't make sense. Yeah, no, definitely.
And I, you know, like I said, I think that's a very important
distinction to make because there's a very, very big
(09:13):
difference. Like you say, it depends on the
lens that you look at it. Look, I mean all side just
decide just just of Just Around It Off on that, on that point.
But now everything's legal. Yeah, and it's a multi-billion
Dollar business. So I would encourage those who
(09:36):
are in the, you know, adult erotic entertainment industry or
whatever to Lobby, their governments to have it changed
because you want to create that separation between what your
content is, and what this stuff is.
And I think that unfortunately, I think that we are really jaded
as a society. So, When we hear porn the word
(09:57):
porn, you know, I think we say pornified, huh, that?
It's kind of like, yeah, whatever, you know.
And we don't actually acknowledge the magnitude of
what this stuff is. What's see?
Sam is there. Definitely.
Well you cover all a lot of it in your podcast obviously.
So I do want to direct people tolisten to your podcast because
(10:19):
it was very very eye-opening forme.
But can you sort of tell me? LED you to spend six years with
task force? Argos, in order to do this
documentary, this podcast, the whole project.
Well, it's actually more like eight years old.
I wanted to do a documentary about people in prison, called
(10:44):
high risk offenders. So when you go to prison, you're
given a recidivism score. So it's basically you know, the
chances of you reoffending Againand winding up in prison.
So I kind of talked my way into the New South Wales prison
system to interview people who have, you know, fulfilled that
(11:08):
category and you know, look at it could be violent offenders,
it could be people who just likestealing a lot.
You know, they fall under a large kind of group, but yeah,
while I was conducting research,I was in the protective custody
unit. In Long Bay and a guy came up to
me, who is eligible for parole? We talked, I didn't know what
(11:33):
his crime was, but he said, yeah, I have committed crimes
against children and I've been in and out of prison for a long
time. And of course, you always will
always want to ask the question,you know, like well if you up
for parole what's different thistime around and he was very
honest and he was like, I finally admitted what I was
doing was wrong. But Jesus said, even I'm shocked
(11:56):
and what's going online? Networks people in the tens of
thousands on the dark web trading her, you not horrific
material etc, etc. Children as young as newborns.
And look I have to doing a lot of prison interviews.
You kind of realize that one thing the prisoners have got is
(12:17):
they've got a lot of time on their hands, so they kind of
tell your pork pies. He's alive, they got to tell
you, you know, kind of Porky's. So I actually Googled it and to
see whether he was right and lo and behold.
Yes, I found out about the dark web and I found out about, you
know, certain criminal organizations, but this name
task force, our guys kept on thepopping up and then realizing,
(12:40):
oh my God, they're in Queensland, my back door.
I'm just going to roll the dice and I will taking a step back
and this is something I don't want to go into too much detail
about because it really He is a Pandora's Box and I don't want
people to go down that rabbit hole but basically I reached out
to a group of hackers who showedme the dark web and basically I
(13:02):
did a tour of tour to our saw a sight, which was Tails, e
entered could see enormous amounts of data being traded.
And this hierarchical network using very, very old school
(13:25):
messaging board software. You know, the same thing that I
used to say back in the 90s withpeople used to collect model,
airplanes or trains and stuff like that.
Using this very, very old software in these communities
with hierarchies rules responsibilities codes of
Ethics, believe it or not, and currency the currency is the
(13:47):
material. All these things are, you know,
the integers or markers of society.
So this is like an, you know, a glimpse into a secret society
living right under our noses. So I called up called up, dust,
balls are ghosts got through sorry called up to pole.
Queensland police got put through to the media department
(14:08):
and folks, look, I think I'm still in shock as I was like,
and I told the person, honestly,exactly what I'd seen.
And Game of Thrones had just become a bit of a big thing.
So, I was like, oh my God, it's like this.
It's like those people of the White Walkers and she just went,
ah, you know what? Genre house is a huge Game of
(14:29):
Thrones fan. I'll put you through.
So she transferred me through. I talked to John, he was very as
John is very abrupt just a lot of and he said, well look, you
seem to know your stuff. But look, we're sitting busy at
the moment. And you look, I'll take your
details and I'll get back to youin a couple of months, which I
(14:51):
thought was the blow off as you would expect, if you just do not
a police force, then the newspaper articles came out.
Shannon McCall was arrested started, digging around finding
out the details that had been brought down then John called me
back up. And said look while you were
visiting that site we had taken over and we were running it.
(15:14):
That's why I couldn't tell you. But now that the site's down I'm
happy to talk within two weeks. He invited me to law enforcement
conference that tassels are God's run and I'd literally met
everyone Homeland Security into the pile.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you name it.
He opened up his black book and the thing that I found really
(15:36):
interesting about it. They wanted to talk because this
was the first time that they ever did.
It's not something that you can finish at the end of your shift
and go home and tell you mrs. You know, how was your day at
work? Yeah, let me tell you a lot of
the time, they keep it all to themselves and there's such a
(15:57):
tight-knit, incredibly Collegiate law enforcement
groups, it works so well together.
I've never seen cooperation International cooperation on
this level but even when they do, Brief don't want to talk
about work, you know, a few drinks and so talking about it
on that level and asking him to be uncomfortable questions, how
(16:19):
does it make you feel? How do you know, a lot of them
have said, man, you know, no one's ever asked except for my
psych review or whatever or, youknow, my supervisor.
So I just could not believe it. I couldn't believe how
forthcoming they were. So when I, when I found an
executive producer, Simon Ashton's, you know, 30 years,
Year veteran and showed him the interviews that I done.
(16:42):
He was like, I've never met suchan incredible group of motivated
individuals, who, who will talk so openly.
And basically, they said, look, you know, this message needs to
get out. We've been running up against
brick walls and, you know, hitting our heads against brick
walls but far too long. We need this message to get out.
(17:05):
And tap me on the shoulder and said your other guy, Which I
mean to this day I can't even express the put into words.
What an honor that was the. Yeah.
It was it was certainly a process that I had to go through
personally as well. I've had my ups and downs and
see the dark side of it all before I came through.
(17:28):
But they were there to help. Look, this is one thing that I
found, really interesting. So firstly, I will touch on on
this so you mentioned tlz. So that was a website on The
dark net called The Love Zone. And you also mentioned Shannon,
McCool who was arrested in SouthAustralia and he ended up
(17:50):
running this website. And really, I think that
happened by accident for him. It just fell into his lap.
He was originally a member and then and then, you know, the
whole thing went down and he ended up inheriting the keys to
the kingdom. So to speak.
Well, I mean, if you want my personal, That's the statement
(18:11):
of an arrested individual tryingto mitigate his involvement.
I just slept it. I just slipped on a USB stick
and fell into a pool of see Sam.No.
And then all of a sudden, but all of a sudden, I'm the head
honcho and you're right, like, it does have some sort of stink
to it, doesn't it, because one thing that blew me away, was
(18:33):
that in order for these guys to keep their membership on the
website, they were having to To upload material every 30 days
and if they weren't uploading will then they were off the site
and so, you know, they're eitherhaving to procure new unseen
material. Although I haven't to do proof
material as you, you explained it well in your podcast where it
(18:57):
was almost like having a verification sign to show that
it was a one-off brand-new produced material.
Yeah, I mean mainly that was kind of The Producers Lounge.
So With the when the cops first infiltrated I couldn't get into
the producers Lounge, it was a, it was the secret kind of room
that everyone on the whole site wanted access to and that's
(19:20):
where people were producing their own material.
Bespoke content for tails at a lot of the time to renew your
membership. It was more a case of like, just
proving that you were a Believer.
So there was a lot of recycled material uploaded.
It. But the fact that they could
upload recycled material, just goes to show how much material
(19:44):
is out there that they could, you know, just do re-ups or as
they call them of, of content just to show that they were.
Yeah. You know, do True Believers that
are within that Circle. They were proven, they're not
law enforcement. They're proving that, you know,
the they are one of them so to speak.
(20:05):
Correct. But look, I really think it's
awesome that Blew the lid off this one because I never
realized how prolific it was until I listened to your podcast
and then in preparation to speakwith you today.
I've been looking at other, you know, docos on YouTube and I
still haven't watched your documentary on SBS, which I'll
(20:29):
definitely be looking at it. But I noticed last night
actually watching the documentary that there's all
these different websites but there are Almost these people
because I have to make it clear,they're not animals.
They're people that might be theworst people out there but
there's still people. But that in the same breath that
the kind of like animals they'relike cockroaches because as soon
(20:52):
as the light gets shown on one website, they all go scurrying
and Luxe screen name. Luxe is a perfect example of
that because he was running his own websites which then got shut
down and then he moved over to tea.
Jose and ended up having an integral role within that to it
was that it was actually. It's I'll have to pull you up on
(21:14):
that one. I'll have to fact check on that
one. It was actually the other way
around. So Lux was a member of tail Z
and he and ingratiated himself at quite a high level.
So he was having discussions with McCall on various encrypted
platforms and his take was, I'm really smart.
I can be of advantage to your organization.
(21:38):
So So you should promote me and make me a really senior member.
And McCool didn't like it. It was just really arrogant.
So Lux was like, you know what, fuck you.
I'm going to go it alone. So then he set up something that
was much, much bigger than tellsEd, and he had his own file,
(22:00):
sharing capabilities, but he gotaccess to some really heinous
material Was produced by an Australian in the Philippines
called Peter Scully. And he released that material
for free. Just a free release of probably,
some of the worst of the worst that law enforcement had
(22:21):
encountered, unfortunately. I had seen that material and
that was, you know, the thing that kind of tip me over because
it involved horrific abuse of a child that was my daughter's age
at the time. So it toddler and no one has I
saw that material thought that they'd ever find that child
alive again they did I'm like a God Bless but it's left an
(22:46):
impact on all of this and there.And yeah, when tells Ed went
down likes just became a rock star very vocal.
In fact tells that was the startof our glasses, dark web
Adventures that they went and got Luxe as well and went on and
on and on. So if you watch the documentary
(23:07):
you'll see that you know, Tails that I'm forty-five thousand
active members. The last board that they took
down had over three million. Wow.
Holy shit. Yeah.
Okay. So what stand corrected on that
because I thought it was the other way around so I find that
really interested. But the other thing I found
(23:27):
really interesting is that, you know, back in the day, I heard
about Peter Scully, I heard about Shannon McCool, you know,
and I thought they were Standalone case.
It's because, That's all you hear the matter, Standalone
cases. But like I say, discovering your
podcast and then going down thatrabbit hole it just, it made it
(23:50):
so prevalent to me that, like, it's his, it's everywhere.
Like, this is a big thing and just the way, the way your
podcast started with it soon, I starting in a warehouse full of
material and then going on to And everything like that just
blew me away. Yeah, about it I mean it's
(24:12):
really interesting how these like, you know, just these
little Clues just lead to you know, opening up these giant
investigations. And I know that, you know, will
we will talk about, you know oneof the most pressing threats to
our kids now which is mobile phones and the Damage that can
(24:32):
be done and I'll I'll share an anecdote about a task force
Argos. Ocean that I was on the ground
while it was happening that justcompletely blew my mind and it
was from one innocuousness message from Facebook if you
want to have a good example of the scale Facebook's internal
(24:53):
team last year. Had 19 million reports of see
Sam being traded on Facebook alone.
That's their internal monitoring.
So I reckon you could add another 10%.
That. So this is the messenger service
and Community groups on Facebookexchanging material, putting out
(25:17):
shout outs hands up, how to, youknow, move on to safer platforms
and also using it as resources to grandchildren, holy shit.
Okay? Because I assumed that this was
all just happening on the dark web.
I did not realize that they werealso using the clear net to do
all this. It is earning on every single
(25:39):
social media platform that you can think of the stuff that I've
seen on Tick. Tock is absolutely horrific and
horrifying Instagram gaming platforms like Roblox Minecraft
desert. I mean, if you're a predator,
you need to find children. So where'd you go looking for
(26:02):
kids online? You go to where kids hang out,
it's not rocket science to it. That part out it's just the
scale of it is unbelievable. If you think the dark web stuff
is is frightening. The user generated content is
this is kids been groomed to make their own selfies or videos
(26:26):
by perpetrators. It's 10 times bigger.
Hello Colonel. And a lot of those times are
used as a tool for grooming. And I've heard so many warnings,
but again, I think like you saidearlier, we're so jaded that I
don't think anybody realizes thetrue ship.
I'm just I'm blown away. I'm sitting here with my jaw on
(26:48):
the floor realizing that it's soprevalent and so accessible on
the clarinet, look, I mean when we when we get it when we get
into it, that one of the main reasons that I really wanted to
come on this show as well as Is to talk to the dads out there on
what to do. You know, it's all very well and
good to just put all this out there and go.
(27:09):
Holy shit, it's horrifying. But there are things that we can
do to keep our kids safe and I want to share them with your
audio. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And we will talk about that a
little more later. Now, when when you were doing
this though, I mean you, you've got two daughters 10 years apart
is that correct? Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, my oldest one. And who's 23, and I was a
(27:32):
teenager, I let her know what was happening online with the
whole selfie situation and how people can use software to scan.
You know, people's telecommunications can capture
these images, hack iCloud accounts, etc, etc.
(27:53):
And you know she was mortified big band.
And really it was it was an interesting.
Process for me because she told me how prevalent was with
school-age kids. So, you know, if you've got this
culture of sexting and and messaging, it's just a fertile
environment for abusers. In fact, to the point where, you
(28:16):
know, abuses say things like, ohmy God, I can't believe how easy
that was like, kids just want totake their clothes off and be
naughty, no. So yeah, it was, it was really,
it was that was By opening. Yeah cuz I mean you were you
were doing this investigation around the time that she was
starting to use the internet andso you were learning at the same
(28:38):
time as she was essentially, were you.
Oh yeah. Look, I think, you know, she was
14 at the time so there, you know, skilled Navigators of the
web, you know, and also, you know, but I mean, you know, as
the years went on my little one,you know, became 3/4 and I saw
(28:58):
how she could navigate her way on the web as well.
I just want to take this moment to share some resources with
you. If you are aware of an instance
of child abuse or child exploitation, please call police
emergency services at triple zero, or failing that you can
(29:22):
call the non-emergency line at 131 triple for, if you or
someone, you know, needs help for counseling.
You can call Lifeline at 13. 1114 or you can call kids
helpline at one 800 number five.One eight hundred if you're
concerned about your own thoughts or behavior towards
(29:44):
children or you're also concerned about another adults
or child's thoughts and behavior.
Please go check out website, stop it now dot org, are you
stop it? Now is a child sex abuse
prevention program, which works with adults concerned about
that. Our own or someone else's sexual
(30:05):
thoughts, or behaviors towards children.
So, please take the time to lookat those resources.
If you feel the need to Now, back to our conversation.
As I'm sure you'll appreciate when we were kids.
We didn't have the internet. It was it was all the warnings
(30:27):
were about watch out for the creepy do down at the at the
park or, you know, keep an eye on any suspicious vehicles that
might be following you and don'ttake lollies from Australian
juror and stranger danger. Yes, stranger danger.
Exactly. But the thing is, is now that
the Predators aren't at the playground.
They are down the street or around the corner like they're
(30:50):
in our house now and so we don'tneed to worry about the
playground anymore. We need to worry about you put
it the best in your podcast. We need to worry about the
playground in our house which ofthese devices with apps like
Roblox and Minecraft. So I mean because you grew up
with you without the internet aswell and having to raise kids
(31:13):
with the internet. I'd really love to hear your
point of view on this. What you think about it?
Look, this is this is a very difficult.
Thing that we all have to kind of accept it.
We're going to move forward and make a difference in this space.
Childhood to Spectrum starts at 0, goes to 13.
Do within that Spectrum? Just kind of like subgroups and
(31:34):
early childhood. Primary school age, Tina, young
teenagers, young adults, within that early cohort of zero to say
for the chances are. If that child, if your child
gets abused, it's going to be bysomebody that they know
unfortunately a lot of the timesit's the father and I'm not
(31:57):
going to go into all the detailsis why or the psychology behind
it? It's just a fact.
And then it goes in concentric circles of Association.
So family members Grand fathers brothers sisters, uncles, then
teachers Sports coaches. I have heard stories about that
(32:19):
church leaders. I've heard yeah, it's all cuz
all starts to make sense so you know it's about access to
children. Really, unfortunately parents
are the ones who got the most access to Children reason.
I make that point is that, you know, I want your listeners to,
you know, draw a line in the sand.
Just got, it's fucking not me, you know, it's not me, I'm not
doing it. And I'm not saying that you got
(32:40):
a view, everyone with absolute suspicion.
Just be protective of your kids,you know, just really kind of
think of all my living, my kids.But if their babysitter's or
family members do I do? I feel safe.
You know. It's a very simple message about
(33:00):
keeping those ones safe from harm.
The next group, primary school kids, you know, a lot of them
are starting to get online really early and the
infrastructure that we're building to connect.
Children to other children, the platforms that they can use to
form their little online communities, really open to
(33:23):
exploitation, and a lot of times, the kids don't realize
that they're being spoken to by adults.
So that's the that's the real kind of stranger danger that we
that we need to look at and thenit goes into The early teenage
years. And once again, you're dealing
with kids, whose hormones are all raging.
(33:45):
And they are exhibiting, you know, natural risk-taking bad
ideas. As we all do, when we were kids,
which then also makes them very,very susceptible to being
abused. And these abuses out there, not
all the tricks in the book. They know how to talk to your
kids. They know how to find out
information to work. Check out the ones that are most
(34:08):
susceptible to grooming. They literally writing manuals
on this that are available in their abuse communities.
So yeah, we've got to have. We got to have a real long think
about the devices that we're giving our kids.
I mean these are fully sprung internet computers that we hand
over to our kids with no safety line.
(34:31):
There's no kind of schematic development where kids learn In
stages, how to navigate their way?
It's like with Chuck our kids, the keys to a Ferrari and then
we don't you know what could possibly go wrong.
You know a lot. So that's kind of my general
General perspective and ensure its just its vigilance, you
(34:55):
know, it's his vigilance as a parent.
You got to have your radar but at the same time you've got to
let kids be kids and you got to let them enjoy their lives.
And you know, a lot of people I say, oh my god.
Well that's it. I'm never going to give my kid a
mobile phone when you mean get good luck with that.
Don't don't make them a social Pariah.
But you know, in the same way that we talk about stranger
(35:18):
danger or we hold our hands, thekids hands when we, you know,
teach them out across the road, we have to teach our kids, how
to navigate the information superhighway?
When I said that to my teenage daughter, she was like, oh my
God, that's a gay. You want something better than
that? I will, sorry, mate.
You know, that's all I got, you know, it's all I got, This is
what I need to do. And to, you know, keep you safe
(35:40):
and and also, you know, educating you in those ways.
So parents need to accept the fact that you've got a kid in
front of you, who's sitting at the dinner table, eating food.
How was your day? Johnny, how was your day, Jenny?
But they've also got an online identity and you have to become
friends or know what their online personas doing to me.
(36:02):
That's the long and short of it and this is the interesting
thing is that the Annette was really gaining traction around
the time that I was a teenager. And, you know, my parents were
always telling me, you know, don't go meet a, stranger off
the internet, you don't know whothey are.
You don't know what kind of danger you're putting yourself
into. And as a teenager I was like,
(36:25):
yeah. Okay.
You know, I thought that just being overprotective or whatever
and you know what, I put myself in some really dodgy situations
just because I wanted to meet Random person that I met on the
internet and as a 37-year old, man, I look back at that and I
think, man, what a moron, you work.
(36:47):
But as you mentioned with the teenagers, the naturally going
to have those risk-taking behaviors happening there, but
thinking, back on my own experience.
It's also made me more aware of what my son is doing on the
internet as well, you know, so Ihave a seven-year-old Year old
and he has a tablet. We have pretty strict monitoring
(37:12):
on that tablet for the most partwho use it to, you know, do
educational things work on his reading and it's mathematics,
but again, we had an issue at one point with YouTube where
he'd start off watching one thing that he couldn't navigate
YouTube, it would just be a caseof clicking the next video.
(37:32):
What's up next? What's up next?
And going down this Rabbit Hole of Of trash.
And so we ended up having a bandYouTube because we're like, look
mate, this is dangerous for you.And you don't know how to
navigate that yet, so until you're old enough, YouTube is
off the table, but I think it's look, here's another place.
(37:52):
You've got something to say. I'd love to hear it.
Absolutely brother. I've got something to say about
YouTube's top tip for your listeners.
Do not let your kids use YouTube.
Kids, it is unsafe there. Are people out there that are
monetizing on insanely inappropriate content and also
(38:15):
using kids Natural Curiosity to gain money by clicks.
If you ever go on YouTube kids and you see unboxing videos,
where all the guy will do is open up a hundred Kinder,
Surprise eggs, And you give thatto a three-year-old and you take
that YouTube tablet away from them, the Tantrum is
(38:38):
unbelievable. There's just something that
they're accessing in their earlydevelopment brains that you know
just kids have no internal protection mechanisms against
that also. A lot of predators are putting
inappropriate content where, youknow, they'll have Elsa
look-alikes and even Elsa fake. And this just doing things that
(39:02):
are just awkward untoward and kids, don't know what they're
watching. There's an amazing Ted talk.
If you go if you're on YouTube, Google tedtalk, YouTube kids, it
was it was horrifying. I haven't showed that to law
enforcement people who were like, right, that's it.
We're putting out the warning toeveryone in the law enforcement
(39:23):
of child protection community. That it's just incredibly
incredibly toxic environment. So yeah you got to, you got to I
kind of look at things that are,you know, have that kind of
stamp of approval and a really good resources.
The E safety commission they'll look at sites that are safe and
secure for kids to operate on. Got no problem with my kid being
(39:44):
on ABC. Kids, tell you that much, go
knock yourself out but it's so funny how those young ones 4567
can navigate through via the useof symbols.
They can't read, but they can navigate through symbols to open
up YouTube and then Then go on internet safaris, it's
interesting. You say that?
Because again in your podcast you talking to your oldest
(40:06):
daughter about this and she madea comment of that your youngest
daughter wasn't even able to read yet.
She remembered the pattern of the passcode to be able to
unlock the phone and be able to access the internet.
But little monkey used to like, grab my finger when I was half
asleep and hoping the an open, the phone when that technology
(40:27):
was around, you know, fingerprint technology.
But the thing that amazed me washow she could navigate using
symbols to get onto YouTube and look, it's not like I'm watching
Disney shit. I'm not like YouTube but she
could find it she could find it on my phone.
So yeah, I mean kids are kids are way more savvy than we give
(40:48):
them credit for. Obviously that the children that
are born. Now are born knowing what
tablets and iPhones do this, youknow?
So swiping gestures and thumb Ian is, is all is all stuff
that, you know, the next generation of just going to take
for granted but, you know, parents don't understand like
(41:10):
I've spoken to a lot of parents and they're like, oh, you know,
like I can't look, I can't look at my child's phone, you know, I
can't grab my kids phone and, you know, see what they're up to
and my question to them is, why not?
Like I will it's a betrayal of trust, it's a betrayal of
privacy and I was like, what about your child's right to
privacy? You're Be talking to x, y, and
(41:32):
Zed. And you need to be the
gatekeeper for your child's right to privacy.
And, you know, are my God, my kid'll, never let me touch their
phone. Well, you're the parent, right?
Absolutely. I mean I remember when I was a
kid, you've got it. You've got a person of the
opposite sex in your bedroom. The door stays open you know you
(41:54):
want to fuck around and find out.
Dad will take your door off the hinges if he has to, you know,
it's like you say It's not abouttrying to protect their feelings
because you took the phone away.I mean, is it is it more?
The fact you try and protect their feelings or are you trying
to avoid a tantrum and at the same time putting your child
safety at risk? Yeah, I mean if my if my kid
(42:16):
wanted to you know like run out onto the freeway, I'd be having
some pretty Stern words. That's dangerous.
Don't do it? I'd stand in front of them.
I grabbed them, if they tried todo it, but if my kids like, oh,
fuck off, you know, I'm taking my phone to my bedroom.
It's 10:00 at night and I'll go to you know unsupervised or
whatever. Look I think you know I think
(42:38):
there will be a Tipping Point and my hope for the future is
that you know like I'm a 70s kidwhere you know you drive into
State without seat belts. While your old man was smoking a
fucking pipe in the car, with the windows rolled up and you
know now we all sit back and go,oh my God, can you believe that?
(43:00):
I did that. I hope that, you know, in a
generation or two was like, oh my God, can you believe that
parents used to let us take the these things into one pitch into
our bedrooms. What were they thinking?
Another thing that I really wantto talk to your listeners about
is you have got to acknowledge the exposure to your children,
(43:22):
to pawn. The average age of exposure to
hardcore pornography in Australia, is 7.
Now this is going to 0 Kids perception of what the world's
like unfortunately for them, thekids, the Predators not had a
product play on that. You know what have you been
looking at? What have you saying blah blah
blah, while they're pretending to be kids themselves, I'll show
(43:44):
you this. You know, yadda yadda, you know,
new enticing, it attract children that way.
So you know it's another conversation that we need to
have and it's a different podcast episode.
But yeah look I mean I'm entering that filled with
another project. T', I'm looking at
neuroplasticity in children and the effects of pornography and
(44:05):
yeah. It's it's what the law
enforcement community of said you've got to address this
because we can't stop him. Absolutely and I mean that's one
of my biggest fears as well you know it's not like again when we
were kids trying to smuggle a Playboy or Penthouse out of the
newsagent. I mean I remember clearly doing
work experience and they'd be porno mags in the toilet where I
(44:28):
was doing work experience. Stuff.
Like it's not like that anymore,it is so readily available and I
look forward to when you finish your project on neuroplasticity
and children I look forward to listening and looking into that
because you're right, I mean, atsuch a young age then seeing
hardcore pornography it completely rewires the brain.
(44:51):
It just makes them more susceptible.
That's the main problem. It just makes them way more
susceptible to grooming. So yeah, it's just conversations
That parents need to have and I'm not going to I'm not going
to, I'm not going to say, you know, like how to do it or
whatever. I think there's a lot of
different perspectives out therebut I think it's vital for
parents to start researching it and work out what works for them
(45:15):
and their kids. Absolutely.
The other thing as well, I want to touch on and I'm kind of want
to get your thoughts on this as well.
Is that since I discovered your podcast I've been having
conversations with my wife of like how do we handle technology
in this house? With with our child, you know,
and I don't know if this is going to be the way to get
(45:35):
around it and you'll probably more in the know, having done
this research than I am. But we looked at the work around
that, okay. He doesn't need a phone, not at
7 years old or 8, years old, even at 10:12.
He doesn't need a phone, but maybe with like a smartwatch,
he's still able to make a phone call to an emergency contact if
(45:57):
he's in a bind. But I mean I'm not well-versed
in Smart watches as well. I'm sure they have internet
capabilities to an extent. But I mean, what are some of
these ways that we can get around, being able to keep in
touch with our kids and not having a phone in their hands
look? Yeah, I think a lot of parents
(46:17):
don't realize how early you can talk to your kids about tech and
I think you need to start talking to kids about tech at a
preschool age. There's a lot of kids who would
just spend hours I was on iPads Parisian content at very young
ages 34. You know you take it out, take
(46:39):
your kid out to a restaurant andthey get Restless you know I
mean back in the day it was likeyour dad tells you to you know
shut up at the shut up at the table.
You kind of you kind of did the Tantrums that they had and you
know, parents could they use it as the you know the ultimate
shut up, you know, all right, you know, he's having a bad day,
(47:00):
he died. Jump on the iPad, yada yada yada
but I think you need to, you know, what?
I'll talk about one thing that'scome out of a lot of research is
that people are trying to teach kids about technology by using
the same blueprints as teaching.The kids about childhood
(47:20):
obesity, too much of a good thing is bad for you.
So monitor the amount of time nodevices at the dinner table
noted Vices in your room, you got to leave your phone out to
charge, I mean, all these things, you know, need to be
incorporated in an early age andunfortunately we a lot of the
(47:41):
times we're trying to take our devices off kids, when they're
14 15, it's too late. Miss the boat.
So, yeah, I think, you know, like, you know, one of the buzz
words is going around at the moment is teaching your kid
internet. Hi, Jen.
Just what's right. What's wrong?
How to navigate, how much time to spend on Earth, decompression
(48:04):
after you've been on the internet?
And, of course, you know, God's sakes, go out and get some fresh
air and climb a tree or, you know, all that sort of stuff as
well comes in handy. But, yeah, look, it's Sickly
acknowledging. The technology is going to be a
part of their lives period. You can't take it away from them
(48:25):
and when you're saying, you know, your kid doesn't need a
phone. I don't know.
I kind of disagree with that. I'm going to experiment with my
child who's now a by giving her her first phone but you can only
contact Mom and Dad. That's it.
That's all you need to do so. Let her developing numeracy and
literacy skills by typing a textmessages and you know being in
(48:47):
contact and Knowing but you knowif Mom and Dad want the phone,
you got to give it back, you know, it's not yours.
You're just learning it. Yeah, my wife and I are in a
similar boat at the moment and we're trying to figure out how
to navigate it. I mean even I think about three
years ago when I first started the podcast, I was talking to
(49:08):
another dad and really debating about whether we get at the
time. It was for whether we get our
four-year-old, a tablet for educational purposes.
Has. And I was, I was talking to him,
like, Hey, how do you handle things in your house and, and
there's because, you know, I'm adigital immigrant, like yourself
and I'm still learning the dangers of the internet and
(49:32):
technology and it, it moves so quickly.
It's really hard to keep up and I'm, as guilty as anybody of
getting caught in a good old Doom, scroll and just sitting
there for hours, just swiping, you know?
I mean, it's that other parent or thing of like if, you know,
If you know what you're doing, don't deny the fact of being in
denial that, that's what you keep could be doing as well.
(49:55):
I got a lot of parents going, you know like oh my God, I'm so
shocked that, you know, kids have exposure to porn at that
age. Like, how did how does that
happen? I mean, look, older kids can be
blamed, blah, blah blah, but youknow, man kids are Wily.
That's smart. They can be looking on your
phone. So can you been looking at it?
(50:17):
Yeah, that's a good point. That's good point.
And don't underestimate what kids have been doing.
I have seen child abuse videos of four-year-olds live streaming
on YouTube for years old. And I'm not surprised that kids
are exhibiting that type of behavior, like, you know,
(50:38):
twerking or whatever, they've seen music videos, I still
scratch. My head was like, how did that
kid? Learn how to live stream, you
know, a 45? The world.
The chances are somebody's told him he's been instructed.
So yeah we look I think I think it's acknowledgment and
(50:59):
admitting that there is a problem is the first part of it
the solutions then come from there.
If we pretend that there isn't one.
Look where we are. Look one thing I want to touch
on here as well. Okay, Ms I really want to drive
home. The point of how severe this
shit is so throughout your investigation doing doing the
(51:22):
podcast for the documentary. It really turned your life
upside down, you know, it fuckedwith your head big time.
In fact, you made a comment in the last episode where you said,
I'm not going to say that the project had an impact on my
marriage and your daughter said almost in a way of life.
(51:45):
Are you crazy? Dad?
Like you don't think it had an impact like how did this affect
you as a father to be knowing and seeing this material and and
knowing that it's out there. The worst part of it is I became
Alienated from my child's childhood.
(52:07):
There were times where, you know, I'd take my little one
too. Now, I live in bond.
I'd take my little one to the kids pool and I'd look around
and I just go on my god. There are people out there that
want to cause all these childrenso much pain and my heart would
sink, you know? And I, yeah, I felt alienated
(52:30):
from that, you know, that I was hyper Vigilant.
What's a person doing? Looking at my kid don't smile on
my kid, blah, blah, blah. And you know it's not it's not a
world that I want to live in butYes, the material is so toxic.
(52:50):
What did this way investigators have ways of viewing, the
material and one golden rule is you never watch a clip with the
audio. It's it, there's just something
about the audio and the video together, like you view them
separately, something about it together that just hammers home,
the reality of it and it stops the cops doing their job of
(53:12):
identifying. Those kids.
It just becomes so horrific and all the cops had same thing.
You'll you know, you you I can. I mean, When John says I can
dial up cases. You know after being a 30-year
investigator I can dial up caseslike that and There are things
that just there are things that won't leave you ever.
(53:34):
The frightening thing is that those who abuse children have
invented so much mental gymnastics to justify viewing
that material. Some of them even put warnings,
this kid will scream, this kid will cry, so, you know, ton of
to listen to the, to the audio. But it's it is it's it's a rific
(54:01):
in that respect and then a lot of the offenders are so the same
the same thing our but the kid was smiling.
The kid was the Laughing. The kid was giggling that stuff
hurts so much because you realize that that abuser has as
warped and manipulated every single thing that a responsible
(54:23):
parent does you know love and play and care to groom that
child to believe those activities are normal.
You know, the normalization of the abuse and yeah, I mean you
know the the manipulation that goes involved in that is yeah,
(54:44):
yeah, it was really was really hard for me to accept. but, In
short, I think any type of abuseto Children is horrible is a
terrific business scale of all this is worse than that you know
in my eyes so having to accept it like that was.
Yeah the thing that you know really helped me get through and
(55:07):
psychiatrists and meditation andyou know all that good shit that
you got to do to keep yourself sound.
Yeah help me you know make the podcast and make content and
keep on working. You know to this day and people
kind of say, you know looked on man, you know, I mean haven't
you had enough? You know, your documentary maker
when you're going to, you know, make a dock on meerkats or
(55:29):
something like that. You know do something light, why
do you keep on continuing? And you know when when is enough
going to be enough? My answer is really simple.
I'll stop what I'm not required.You know, the people that I work
with you they keep on asking me to do stuff.
I'll do it and there's a lot more stuff that needs to be
done. Look at came, we are running out
(55:52):
of time for this episode, but one thing I do want to touch on
On before we do go, is that there are obviously things that
we can do as parents to protect our kids and it's not just
monitoring their use of devices.Now, one one, big thing that
jumps out at me is our actions on social media.
(56:13):
I see all the time parents putting up as it happens all the
time. First day of school school
photos and they've got these lovely smiling kids with their
school uniforms on with the emblem right there.
That tells people essentially, what suburb you living in where
they go to school and where to find these kids, what are some
(56:36):
other brief tips that you might have that we can through our own
internet, use that we can protect Akhtar kids.
Yeah, be careful about who you send your photos to.
Obviously even if you're on Facebook, you can set up closed
groups to share those beautiful moments with family and friends
and people that you trust and not other 800 people that you
(56:58):
might have met in the pub and become mates with on Facebook,
you know, so, yeah, just just bejust being just be cautious.
But once again, I think it's, you know, like if you
acknowledge that, Facebook is a place where people do find and
Children be aware that people will abuse that material.
So, you know, just be vigilant about who you send it to.
(57:20):
That's that in terms of posting content, you know, some people
go so far as like they will never post pictures of their
kids. They'll never post, you know,
single women will never post photos of their kids on dating
sites. Dad's on dating sites, you know,
never post photos of their kids that to me is common fucking
sense. You're on a dating site, you
(57:42):
don't Need to show how good a dad you are with your kids in
there. Just be clever.
That's what predators do they hunt?
So they'll look for people who put images up like that.
So yeah, it looks. It's just acknowledging that
there is a that there is a problem.
You'll start developing your ownmechanisms on how to keep your
(58:04):
kids safe and how not to let it fuck with you as well.
Because I think that that's that's one of the main things as
well. A lot of people Feel powerless.
What can I do? What can I do on my God?
The internet. I've got no control over that
year. You do you see you?
Do you do? And another thing is like if you
feel like you've had enough of this bullshit and you feel like
(58:28):
you know the social media companies are just getting away
with it then make a stand complain.
Honestly believed we're nowhere near the Tipping Point at this,
it's going to go on and continueand grow to epidemic levels
already say that it already is that this issue is not just a
(58:52):
Law Enforcement issue. It's a social issue.
We've all have our part to play and it will be tried in the
court of public opinion. So make yourselves heard 100%.
Okay look, I want to thank you so much for having taken Ian,
the time out of your busy schedule to speak to me about
this because it's I mean, it's not a topic that any parent
(59:14):
really wants to think about or talk about.
But like you said, if the silence is there?
Well, then you know, it's only going to keep going and it's
something we need to talk about as uncomfortable as it is.
You know, it's got to happen. But also I want to thank you for
sacrificing your mental health. Personal relationships in your
(59:38):
life that have been affected forto blow the lid off this and
produce this this documentary and podcast to shine a light on
this stuff, man. Like, thank you so much as one
of the, one of the greats in this field.
Dr. Michael Burke, who is known as the Silence of the Lambs guy.
(59:59):
He deals with the offenders but he says, you know, my job is a
bad deal with the offenders but I'd do it for the kids and he
quotes it all the time. That's a quote from the Jewish.
Literature called the talmud there's a quote in there says
that if you can save the life ofone child, you saved the world
and that's my commitment. So if this, you know, if this
(01:00:23):
Can help anyone or and I know that, I know the work that I
have done and continue to do in the background has helped kids.
So you know, it was a funny kindof way, align tables worth it,
what I went through, but luckilyfor me, I had with the support
that I've had. I've come through the other end
and we'll continue to do what I need to do.
(01:00:45):
Thank you, my friend. You you are you're a champion of
the people for sure. A champion my parents.
Hey look I'm just an invitation And as well, if your audience
has questions Q&A, like questions or whatever that they
ask, after reading the podcast, collate, the questions.
And I'm more than happy to come on board and you can read the
(01:01:06):
questions out and I'll do my best to answer them.
And also, you know, if you want to sort of kind of make it a
little bit bigger, I can get oneof the agents from Argos to come
on board with us as well. Look, if you'd be willing to do
a second part with me, that would be amazing.
But yeah, definitely people if you do have your questions fit,
if you're on Spotify you can send me a question through the
(01:01:30):
episode on Spotify or you can send your questions to
not-so-secret dad's business at gmail.com, and I'll compile them
all and get them ready for Acumen.
Hopefully, we can do a part 2 with this definitely, but I'll
keep in touch with you. Okay, again, thank you so much
for coming on the show. Not a problem, man.
(01:01:51):
You have a good. One.
Thanks for listening to the show.
If you want to find out more about today's guest, just check
out the links in the show notes,you can follow the podcast as
well on social media at not-so-secret dad's business or
on our website, not-so-secret dad's business.com.
If you're listening on a podcastor Spotify please rate review
(01:02:12):
the show, it helps more than in realize.
Until next time guys be the bestdad you can be
Listen to discretion is advised this episode contains topics of
child, exploitation material, child, sexual, abuse online,
predators. And the like, please keep this
in mind. When deciding where, and when to
listen to this episode, are you new to fatherhood?
(00:20):
Not sure if you're dating to your full potential, well,
you've come to the right place. Most ads aren't talking to each
other about their lives as dads.Look at some kind of secret.
Well, this is the podcast that takes the secret out of
fatherhood. This is not so secret dad's
business. G'day g'day and welcome to
(00:50):
another episode of not-so-secretdad's business.
So I'm bringing you guys a bit of a heavy one today, but I feel
that this is definitely something that as parents.
We need to be talking about, in this episode, I have special
guest Hakeem. Dev Hakeem has are renowned
documentary filmmaker and investigative journalist and he
(01:10):
shares his experiences and insights from his Global
Adventures. Covering the stories.
On this crucial issue, a Kim's work extends to his podcast for
children in the pictures and hisfeature.
Tree of the same name, which is available on SBS, on demand as
we talked, a caiman. I delve into the distinction
(01:31):
between the terms of child, pornography and child
exploitation material shedding the light on the global efforts
to redefine the terminology and to prosecute these crimes.
Effectively Hakeem also emphasizes the importance of
digital evidence, in bringing perpetrators to Justice.
Hakeem ended up spending about eight years with task.
(01:53):
Sr glass which is a law enforcement agency dedicated to
combating child or exploitation and it was actually a
conversation with a prisoner adapt to be released.
That led him to go down the rabbit hole to look at the
extent of online child exploitation, which then led to
him venturing into the dark web and collaborating with task
(02:15):
force Argos throughout this episode Hakeem.
Stresses the importance of raising awareness about child
exploitation. And understanding that pervasive
nature and he shares some of hisinsights into the intricate
networks and communities operating on the dark web
engaging in the trade of explicit material involving
(02:36):
children. Now later on, in the episode we
do end up shifting our Focus to the evolving landscape of child
protection in the digital age. We discuss the unique risks that
each age group of children, faceonline from predators disguised
as These two unsupervised internet access.
So join us for this eye-opening episode as Hakeem and I unravel
(03:01):
the complexities of child exploitation was shine a light
on the critical work of international law, enforcement
agencies and advocate for a better understanding of this
issue in society. So without much more to say, let
me introduce my guest Hakeem Debhyah cave.
(03:36):
Thank you so much for joining meon not-so-secret, dad's
business. And thank you so much for your
patience with me. Is that since I first touch base
with you, you've been all over the world and, and I've been in
your inbox, just go. And how you came.
I really want to touch base withyou.
Hi, buddy. How you doing?
So thanks so much for your patience and thanks for being in
(03:58):
there. Not a problem and look, you
know, I think the apology goes both ways I'm, you know I was
more than happy to be a part of this.
Yeah. Just some I guess I timings were
a bit off. And yeah.
Had to go and pay the bills and yeah.
Visit some really interesting places Ukraine and just I just
(04:20):
got off the Plane last night from Baghdad, which was a real
eye-opener. Yeah man, I'll I was following
you all your adventures on on Instagram and journalism seems
to really have its ups and downs.
I think that's good. Like at least you were able to
enjoy some of your time while working as well.
(04:40):
Sure, it's always good to stop and smell the roses.
I mean look I I don't really consider myself a journalist as
such. I know I've done some
investigative work but I mean I'm a documentary maker We make
films. And now we discovered this
exciting medium of podcast whichis you know it's an incredible
way of you know, really digging deep and giving yeah, just just
(05:06):
basically more information to our viewers.
Look, you know that said, the podcast is a part of a suite of
content. I'd say we made a feature
documentary, the children in thepictures, same title All which
is on SBS on demand. So just need to give that a
quick plug SBS have been fantastic.
(05:28):
And yeah, because of the becauseof the interest.
Now, in this subject, they've actually given us an extension.
So yeah. If you kind of want to see the
film version of it online on demand?
Yeah. Absolutely.
In fact it was the podcast that I actually found on Spotify that
(05:51):
But I've got to know who you were a little bit and I found
the podcast purely by accident. You know, Spotify does this
great thing where it recommends different podcasts for you.
And I'm very much a true crime bath and, you know, your
podcast, the children in the pictures, you know, that's very
much True Crime and it was It's not.
(06:17):
It was uncomfortable, it was confronting it was.
It was interesting. It was.
All right, 9, and I listened to the the whole podcast, the first
time in a day, while I was at work and I went home and I had
to have some time to myself and ended up crying, you know,
because I'm just thinking about all these poor children.
(06:39):
But one thing I do want to touchon within your podcast is and I
think we do need to clarify these from the get-go is that We
are not talking about child pornography, we're talking about
child, exploitation material here, what's the difference
here? Because everybody knows what
child would cause a child porn. But what is child exploitation
(07:01):
material? And why is this important that
we make this clear? Look, another one that's really
gaining. A lot of momentum globally is
see Sam. So SI ese.
Child sexual abuse material. It's starting to get its way
(07:22):
into the u.s. Press.
They're the ones who refer to itmostly as child pornography.
And there's a reason for that. I mean, that's how they
prosecute the cases. It's called child pornography in
their statutes and there's a whole bunch of people who are
fighting tooth and nail to get it changed.
And yeah part of the part of thepodcast and a part of, you know,
(07:45):
the awareness that we're raisinghis to do that.
We are lobbying pretty hard in the states.
I actually had a congressional screening of the doc.
Oh, which was yeah, I mean, a great honor to present and also
represent your country, you know, in a funny kind of way,
you know, like a lot of people really acknowledge Australia as
(08:05):
being the tip of the spear in terms of the work that the
investigative work that we've done.
But also you know, in terms of lawmaking and the infrastructure
that's been created around too. Help keep a kid side and I'll
graffiti what is pornography? Pornography is material that is
there to titillate. It's there to cause sexual
(08:28):
arousal. So material involving children
that cause sexual arousal will only be regarded as pornography
at by the people that are aroused by it.
So I think it's really, it's a no-brainer for me.
Why we make that distinction? And because the police the tech
(08:50):
companies and the ngos government know that this is
digital evidence. This this is evidence of crimes
been committed. The people who get aroused by
it, for them. It's been a goofy.
So I Line in the Sand needs to be drawn.
I don't make sense. Yeah, no, definitely.
And I, you know, like I said, I think that's a very important
distinction to make because there's a very, very big
(09:13):
difference. Like you say, it depends on the
lens that you look at it. Look, I mean all side just
decide just just of Just Around It Off on that, on that point.
But now everything's legal. Yeah, and it's a multi-billion
Dollar business. So I would encourage those who
(09:36):
are in the, you know, adult erotic entertainment industry or
whatever to Lobby, their governments to have it changed
because you want to create that separation between what your
content is, and what this stuff is.
And I think that unfortunately, I think that we are really jaded
as a society. So, When we hear porn the word
(09:57):
porn, you know, I think we say pornified, huh, that?
It's kind of like, yeah, whatever, you know.
And we don't actually acknowledge the magnitude of
what this stuff is. What's see?
Sam is there. Definitely.
Well you cover all a lot of it in your podcast obviously.
So I do want to direct people tolisten to your podcast because
(10:19):
it was very very eye-opening forme.
But can you sort of tell me? LED you to spend six years with
task force? Argos, in order to do this
documentary, this podcast, the whole project.
Well, it's actually more like eight years old.
I wanted to do a documentary about people in prison, called
(10:44):
high risk offenders. So when you go to prison, you're
given a recidivism score. So it's basically you know, the
chances of you reoffending Againand winding up in prison.
So I kind of talked my way into the New South Wales prison
system to interview people who have, you know, fulfilled that
(11:08):
category and you know, look at it could be violent offenders,
it could be people who just likestealing a lot.
You know, they fall under a large kind of group, but yeah,
while I was conducting research,I was in the protective custody
unit. In Long Bay and a guy came up to
me, who is eligible for parole? We talked, I didn't know what
(11:33):
his crime was, but he said, yeah, I have committed crimes
against children and I've been in and out of prison for a long
time. And of course, you always will
always want to ask the question,you know, like well if you up
for parole what's different thistime around and he was very
honest and he was like, I finally admitted what I was
doing was wrong. But Jesus said, even I'm shocked
(11:56):
and what's going online? Networks people in the tens of
thousands on the dark web trading her, you not horrific
material etc, etc. Children as young as newborns.
And look I have to doing a lot of prison interviews.
You kind of realize that one thing the prisoners have got is
(12:17):
they've got a lot of time on their hands, so they kind of
tell your pork pies. He's alive, they got to tell
you, you know, kind of Porky's. So I actually Googled it and to
see whether he was right and lo and behold.
Yes, I found out about the dark web and I found out about, you
know, certain criminal organizations, but this name
task force, our guys kept on thepopping up and then realizing,
(12:40):
oh my God, they're in Queensland, my back door.
I'm just going to roll the dice and I will taking a step back
and this is something I don't want to go into too much detail
about because it really He is a Pandora's Box and I don't want
people to go down that rabbit hole but basically I reached out
to a group of hackers who showedme the dark web and basically I
(13:02):
did a tour of tour to our saw a sight, which was Tails, e
entered could see enormous amounts of data being traded.
And this hierarchical network using very, very old school
(13:25):
messaging board software. You know, the same thing that I
used to say back in the 90s withpeople used to collect model,
airplanes or trains and stuff like that.
Using this very, very old software in these communities
with hierarchies rules responsibilities codes of
Ethics, believe it or not, and currency the currency is the
(13:47):
material. All these things are, you know,
the integers or markers of society.
So this is like an, you know, a glimpse into a secret society
living right under our noses. So I called up called up, dust,
balls are ghosts got through sorry called up to pole.
Queensland police got put through to the media department
(14:08):
and folks, look, I think I'm still in shock as I was like,
and I told the person, honestly,exactly what I'd seen.
And Game of Thrones had just become a bit of a big thing.
So, I was like, oh my God, it's like this.
It's like those people of the White Walkers and she just went,
ah, you know what? Genre house is a huge Game of
(14:29):
Thrones fan. I'll put you through.
So she transferred me through. I talked to John, he was very as
John is very abrupt just a lot of and he said, well look, you
seem to know your stuff. But look, we're sitting busy at
the moment. And you look, I'll take your
details and I'll get back to youin a couple of months, which I
(14:51):
thought was the blow off as you would expect, if you just do not
a police force, then the newspaper articles came out.
Shannon McCall was arrested started, digging around finding
out the details that had been brought down then John called me
back up. And said look while you were
visiting that site we had taken over and we were running it.
(15:14):
That's why I couldn't tell you. But now that the site's down I'm
happy to talk within two weeks. He invited me to law enforcement
conference that tassels are God's run and I'd literally met
everyone Homeland Security into the pile.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you name it.
He opened up his black book and the thing that I found really
(15:36):
interesting about it. They wanted to talk because this
was the first time that they ever did.
It's not something that you can finish at the end of your shift
and go home and tell you mrs. You know, how was your day at
work? Yeah, let me tell you a lot of
the time, they keep it all to themselves and there's such a
(15:57):
tight-knit, incredibly Collegiate law enforcement
groups, it works so well together.
I've never seen cooperation International cooperation on
this level but even when they do, Brief don't want to talk
about work, you know, a few drinks and so talking about it
on that level and asking him to be uncomfortable questions, how
(16:19):
does it make you feel? How do you know, a lot of them
have said, man, you know, no one's ever asked except for my
psych review or whatever or, youknow, my supervisor.
So I just could not believe it. I couldn't believe how
forthcoming they were. So when I, when I found an
executive producer, Simon Ashton's, you know, 30 years,
Year veteran and showed him the interviews that I done.
(16:42):
He was like, I've never met suchan incredible group of motivated
individuals, who, who will talk so openly.
And basically, they said, look, you know, this message needs to
get out. We've been running up against
brick walls and, you know, hitting our heads against brick
walls but far too long. We need this message to get out.
(17:05):
And tap me on the shoulder and said your other guy, Which I
mean to this day I can't even express the put into words.
What an honor that was the. Yeah.
It was it was certainly a process that I had to go through
personally as well. I've had my ups and downs and
see the dark side of it all before I came through.
(17:28):
But they were there to help. Look, this is one thing that I
found, really interesting. So firstly, I will touch on on
this so you mentioned tlz. So that was a website on The
dark net called The Love Zone. And you also mentioned Shannon,
McCool who was arrested in SouthAustralia and he ended up
(17:50):
running this website. And really, I think that
happened by accident for him. It just fell into his lap.
He was originally a member and then and then, you know, the
whole thing went down and he ended up inheriting the keys to
the kingdom. So to speak.
Well, I mean, if you want my personal, That's the statement
(18:11):
of an arrested individual tryingto mitigate his involvement.
I just slept it. I just slipped on a USB stick
and fell into a pool of see Sam.No.
And then all of a sudden, but all of a sudden, I'm the head
honcho and you're right, like, it does have some sort of stink
to it, doesn't it, because one thing that blew me away, was
(18:33):
that in order for these guys to keep their membership on the
website, they were having to To upload material every 30 days
and if they weren't uploading will then they were off the site
and so, you know, they're eitherhaving to procure new unseen
material. Although I haven't to do proof
material as you, you explained it well in your podcast where it
(18:57):
was almost like having a verification sign to show that
it was a one-off brand-new produced material.
Yeah, I mean mainly that was kind of The Producers Lounge.
So With the when the cops first infiltrated I couldn't get into
the producers Lounge, it was a, it was the secret kind of room
that everyone on the whole site wanted access to and that's
(19:20):
where people were producing their own material.
Bespoke content for tails at a lot of the time to renew your
membership. It was more a case of like, just
proving that you were a Believer.
So there was a lot of recycled material uploaded.
It. But the fact that they could
upload recycled material, just goes to show how much material
(19:44):
is out there that they could, you know, just do re-ups or as
they call them of, of content just to show that they were.
Yeah. You know, do True Believers that
are within that Circle. They were proven, they're not
law enforcement. They're proving that, you know,
the they are one of them so to speak.
(20:05):
Correct. But look, I really think it's
awesome that Blew the lid off this one because I never
realized how prolific it was until I listened to your podcast
and then in preparation to speakwith you today.
I've been looking at other, you know, docos on YouTube and I
still haven't watched your documentary on SBS, which I'll
(20:29):
definitely be looking at it. But I noticed last night
actually watching the documentary that there's all
these different websites but there are Almost these people
because I have to make it clear,they're not animals.
They're people that might be theworst people out there but
there's still people. But that in the same breath that
the kind of like animals they'relike cockroaches because as soon
(20:52):
as the light gets shown on one website, they all go scurrying
and Luxe screen name. Luxe is a perfect example of
that because he was running his own websites which then got shut
down and then he moved over to tea.
Jose and ended up having an integral role within that to it
was that it was actually. It's I'll have to pull you up on
(21:14):
that one. I'll have to fact check on that
one. It was actually the other way
around. So Lux was a member of tail Z
and he and ingratiated himself at quite a high level.
So he was having discussions with McCall on various encrypted
platforms and his take was, I'm really smart.
I can be of advantage to your organization.
(21:38):
So So you should promote me and make me a really senior member.
And McCool didn't like it. It was just really arrogant.
So Lux was like, you know what, fuck you.
I'm going to go it alone. So then he set up something that
was much, much bigger than tellsEd, and he had his own file,
(22:00):
sharing capabilities, but he gotaccess to some really heinous
material Was produced by an Australian in the Philippines
called Peter Scully. And he released that material
for free. Just a free release of probably,
some of the worst of the worst that law enforcement had
(22:21):
encountered, unfortunately. I had seen that material and
that was, you know, the thing that kind of tip me over because
it involved horrific abuse of a child that was my daughter's age
at the time. So it toddler and no one has I
saw that material thought that they'd ever find that child
alive again they did I'm like a God Bless but it's left an
(22:46):
impact on all of this and there.And yeah, when tells Ed went
down likes just became a rock star very vocal.
In fact tells that was the startof our glasses, dark web
Adventures that they went and got Luxe as well and went on and
on and on. So if you watch the documentary
(23:07):
you'll see that you know, Tails that I'm forty-five thousand
active members. The last board that they took
down had over three million. Wow.
Holy shit. Yeah.
Okay. So what stand corrected on that
because I thought it was the other way around so I find that
really interested. But the other thing I found
(23:27):
really interesting is that, you know, back in the day, I heard
about Peter Scully, I heard about Shannon McCool, you know,
and I thought they were Standalone case.
It's because, That's all you hear the matter, Standalone
cases. But like I say, discovering your
podcast and then going down thatrabbit hole it just, it made it
(23:50):
so prevalent to me that, like, it's his, it's everywhere.
Like, this is a big thing and just the way, the way your
podcast started with it soon, I starting in a warehouse full of
material and then going on to And everything like that just
blew me away. Yeah, about it I mean it's
(24:12):
really interesting how these like, you know, just these
little Clues just lead to you know, opening up these giant
investigations. And I know that, you know, will
we will talk about, you know oneof the most pressing threats to
our kids now which is mobile phones and the Damage that can
(24:32):
be done and I'll I'll share an anecdote about a task force
Argos. Ocean that I was on the ground
while it was happening that justcompletely blew my mind and it
was from one innocuousness message from Facebook if you
want to have a good example of the scale Facebook's internal
(24:53):
team last year. Had 19 million reports of see
Sam being traded on Facebook alone.
That's their internal monitoring.
So I reckon you could add another 10%.
That. So this is the messenger service
and Community groups on Facebookexchanging material, putting out
(25:17):
shout outs hands up, how to, youknow, move on to safer platforms
and also using it as resources to grandchildren, holy shit.
Okay? Because I assumed that this was
all just happening on the dark web.
I did not realize that they werealso using the clear net to do
all this. It is earning on every single
(25:39):
social media platform that you can think of the stuff that I've
seen on Tick. Tock is absolutely horrific and
horrifying Instagram gaming platforms like Roblox Minecraft
desert. I mean, if you're a predator,
you need to find children. So where'd you go looking for
(26:02):
kids online? You go to where kids hang out,
it's not rocket science to it. That part out it's just the
scale of it is unbelievable. If you think the dark web stuff
is is frightening. The user generated content is
this is kids been groomed to make their own selfies or videos
(26:26):
by perpetrators. It's 10 times bigger.
Hello Colonel. And a lot of those times are
used as a tool for grooming. And I've heard so many warnings,
but again, I think like you saidearlier, we're so jaded that I
don't think anybody realizes thetrue ship.
I'm just I'm blown away. I'm sitting here with my jaw on
(26:48):
the floor realizing that it's soprevalent and so accessible on
the clarinet, look, I mean when we when we get it when we get
into it, that one of the main reasons that I really wanted to
come on this show as well as Is to talk to the dads out there on
what to do. You know, it's all very well and
good to just put all this out there and go.
(27:09):
Holy shit, it's horrifying. But there are things that we can
do to keep our kids safe and I want to share them with your
audio. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And we will talk about that a
little more later. Now, when when you were doing
this though, I mean you, you've got two daughters 10 years apart
is that correct? Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, my oldest one. And who's 23, and I was a
(27:32):
teenager, I let her know what was happening online with the
whole selfie situation and how people can use software to scan.
You know, people's telecommunications can capture
these images, hack iCloud accounts, etc, etc.
(27:53):
And you know she was mortified big band.
And really it was it was an interesting.
Process for me because she told me how prevalent was with
school-age kids. So, you know, if you've got this
culture of sexting and and messaging, it's just a fertile
environment for abusers. In fact, to the point where, you
(28:16):
know, abuses say things like, ohmy God, I can't believe how easy
that was like, kids just want totake their clothes off and be
naughty, no. So yeah, it was, it was really,
it was that was By opening. Yeah cuz I mean you were you
were doing this investigation around the time that she was
starting to use the internet andso you were learning at the same
(28:38):
time as she was essentially, were you.
Oh yeah. Look, I think, you know, she was
14 at the time so there, you know, skilled Navigators of the
web, you know, and also, you know, but I mean, you know, as
the years went on my little one,you know, became 3/4 and I saw
(28:58):
how she could navigate her way on the web as well.
I just want to take this moment to share some resources with
you. If you are aware of an instance
of child abuse or child exploitation, please call police
emergency services at triple zero, or failing that you can
(29:22):
call the non-emergency line at 131 triple for, if you or
someone, you know, needs help for counseling.
You can call Lifeline at 13. 1114 or you can call kids
helpline at one 800 number five.One eight hundred if you're
concerned about your own thoughts or behavior towards
(29:44):
children or you're also concerned about another adults
or child's thoughts and behavior.
Please go check out website, stop it now dot org, are you
stop it? Now is a child sex abuse
prevention program, which works with adults concerned about
that. Our own or someone else's sexual
(30:05):
thoughts, or behaviors towards children.
So, please take the time to lookat those resources.
If you feel the need to Now, back to our conversation.
As I'm sure you'll appreciate when we were kids.
We didn't have the internet. It was it was all the warnings
(30:27):
were about watch out for the creepy do down at the at the
park or, you know, keep an eye on any suspicious vehicles that
might be following you and don'ttake lollies from Australian
juror and stranger danger. Yes, stranger danger.
Exactly. But the thing is, is now that
the Predators aren't at the playground.
They are down the street or around the corner like they're
(30:50):
in our house now and so we don'tneed to worry about the
playground anymore. We need to worry about you put
it the best in your podcast. We need to worry about the
playground in our house which ofthese devices with apps like
Roblox and Minecraft. So I mean because you grew up
with you without the internet aswell and having to raise kids
(31:13):
with the internet. I'd really love to hear your
point of view on this. What you think about it?
Look, this is this is a very difficult.
Thing that we all have to kind of accept it.
We're going to move forward and make a difference in this space.
Childhood to Spectrum starts at 0, goes to 13.
Do within that Spectrum? Just kind of like subgroups and
(31:34):
early childhood. Primary school age, Tina, young
teenagers, young adults, within that early cohort of zero to say
for the chances are. If that child, if your child
gets abused, it's going to be bysomebody that they know
unfortunately a lot of the timesit's the father and I'm not
(31:57):
going to go into all the detailsis why or the psychology behind
it? It's just a fact.
And then it goes in concentric circles of Association.
So family members Grand fathers brothers sisters, uncles, then
teachers Sports coaches. I have heard stories about that
(32:19):
church leaders. I've heard yeah, it's all cuz
all starts to make sense so you know it's about access to
children. Really, unfortunately parents
are the ones who got the most access to Children reason.
I make that point is that, you know, I want your listeners to,
you know, draw a line in the sand.
Just got, it's fucking not me, you know, it's not me, I'm not
doing it. And I'm not saying that you got
(32:40):
a view, everyone with absolute suspicion.
Just be protective of your kids,you know, just really kind of
think of all my living, my kids.But if their babysitter's or
family members do I do? I feel safe.
You know. It's a very simple message about
(33:00):
keeping those ones safe from harm.
The next group, primary school kids, you know, a lot of them
are starting to get online really early and the
infrastructure that we're building to connect.
Children to other children, the platforms that they can use to
form their little online communities, really open to
(33:23):
exploitation, and a lot of times, the kids don't realize
that they're being spoken to by adults.
So that's the that's the real kind of stranger danger that we
that we need to look at and thenit goes into The early teenage
years. And once again, you're dealing
with kids, whose hormones are all raging.
(33:45):
And they are exhibiting, you know, natural risk-taking bad
ideas. As we all do, when we were kids,
which then also makes them very,very susceptible to being
abused. And these abuses out there, not
all the tricks in the book. They know how to talk to your
kids. They know how to find out
information to work. Check out the ones that are most
(34:08):
susceptible to grooming. They literally writing manuals
on this that are available in their abuse communities.
So yeah, we've got to have. We got to have a real long think
about the devices that we're giving our kids.
I mean these are fully sprung internet computers that we hand
over to our kids with no safety line.
(34:31):
There's no kind of schematic development where kids learn In
stages, how to navigate their way?
It's like with Chuck our kids, the keys to a Ferrari and then
we don't you know what could possibly go wrong.
You know a lot. So that's kind of my general
General perspective and ensure its just its vigilance, you
(34:55):
know, it's his vigilance as a parent.
You got to have your radar but at the same time you've got to
let kids be kids and you got to let them enjoy their lives.
And you know, a lot of people I say, oh my god.
Well that's it. I'm never going to give my kid a
mobile phone when you mean get good luck with that.
Don't don't make them a social Pariah.
But you know, in the same way that we talk about stranger
(35:18):
danger or we hold our hands, thekids hands when we, you know,
teach them out across the road, we have to teach our kids, how
to navigate the information superhighway?
When I said that to my teenage daughter, she was like, oh my
God, that's a gay. You want something better than
that? I will, sorry, mate.
You know, that's all I got, you know, it's all I got, This is
what I need to do. And to, you know, keep you safe
(35:40):
and and also, you know, educating you in those ways.
So parents need to accept the fact that you've got a kid in
front of you, who's sitting at the dinner table, eating food.
How was your day? Johnny, how was your day, Jenny?
But they've also got an online identity and you have to become
friends or know what their online personas doing to me.
(36:02):
That's the long and short of it and this is the interesting
thing is that the Annette was really gaining traction around
the time that I was a teenager. And, you know, my parents were
always telling me, you know, don't go meet a, stranger off
the internet, you don't know whothey are.
You don't know what kind of danger you're putting yourself
into. And as a teenager I was like,
(36:25):
yeah. Okay.
You know, I thought that just being overprotective or whatever
and you know what, I put myself in some really dodgy situations
just because I wanted to meet Random person that I met on the
internet and as a 37-year old, man, I look back at that and I
think, man, what a moron, you work.
(36:47):
But as you mentioned with the teenagers, the naturally going
to have those risk-taking behaviors happening there, but
thinking, back on my own experience.
It's also made me more aware of what my son is doing on the
internet as well, you know, so Ihave a seven-year-old Year old
and he has a tablet. We have pretty strict monitoring
(37:12):
on that tablet for the most partwho use it to, you know, do
educational things work on his reading and it's mathematics,
but again, we had an issue at one point with YouTube where
he'd start off watching one thing that he couldn't navigate
YouTube, it would just be a caseof clicking the next video.
(37:32):
What's up next? What's up next?
And going down this Rabbit Hole of Of trash.
And so we ended up having a bandYouTube because we're like, look
mate, this is dangerous for you.And you don't know how to
navigate that yet, so until you're old enough, YouTube is
off the table, but I think it's look, here's another place.
(37:52):
You've got something to say. I'd love to hear it.
Absolutely brother. I've got something to say about
YouTube's top tip for your listeners.
Do not let your kids use YouTube.
Kids, it is unsafe there. Are people out there that are
monetizing on insanely inappropriate content and also
(38:15):
using kids Natural Curiosity to gain money by clicks.
If you ever go on YouTube kids and you see unboxing videos,
where all the guy will do is open up a hundred Kinder,
Surprise eggs, And you give thatto a three-year-old and you take
that YouTube tablet away from them, the Tantrum is
(38:38):
unbelievable. There's just something that
they're accessing in their earlydevelopment brains that you know
just kids have no internal protection mechanisms against
that also. A lot of predators are putting
inappropriate content where, youknow, they'll have Elsa
look-alikes and even Elsa fake. And this just doing things that
(39:02):
are just awkward untoward and kids, don't know what they're
watching. There's an amazing Ted talk.
If you go if you're on YouTube, Google tedtalk, YouTube kids, it
was it was horrifying. I haven't showed that to law
enforcement people who were like, right, that's it.
We're putting out the warning toeveryone in the law enforcement
(39:23):
of child protection community. That it's just incredibly
incredibly toxic environment. So yeah you got to, you got to I
kind of look at things that are,you know, have that kind of
stamp of approval and a really good resources.
The E safety commission they'll look at sites that are safe and
secure for kids to operate on. Got no problem with my kid being
(39:44):
on ABC. Kids, tell you that much, go
knock yourself out but it's so funny how those young ones 4567
can navigate through via the useof symbols.
They can't read, but they can navigate through symbols to open
up YouTube and then Then go on internet safaris, it's
interesting. You say that?
Because again in your podcast you talking to your oldest
(40:06):
daughter about this and she madea comment of that your youngest
daughter wasn't even able to read yet.
She remembered the pattern of the passcode to be able to
unlock the phone and be able to access the internet.
But little monkey used to like, grab my finger when I was half
asleep and hoping the an open, the phone when that technology
(40:27):
was around, you know, fingerprint technology.
But the thing that amazed me washow she could navigate using
symbols to get onto YouTube and look, it's not like I'm watching
Disney shit. I'm not like YouTube but she
could find it she could find it on my phone.
So yeah, I mean kids are kids are way more savvy than we give
(40:48):
them credit for. Obviously that the children that
are born. Now are born knowing what
tablets and iPhones do this, youknow?
So swiping gestures and thumb Ian is, is all is all stuff
that, you know, the next generation of just going to take
for granted but, you know, parents don't understand like
(41:10):
I've spoken to a lot of parents and they're like, oh, you know,
like I can't look, I can't look at my child's phone, you know, I
can't grab my kids phone and, you know, see what they're up to
and my question to them is, why not?
Like I will it's a betrayal of trust, it's a betrayal of
privacy and I was like, what about your child's right to
privacy? You're Be talking to x, y, and
(41:32):
Zed. And you need to be the
gatekeeper for your child's right to privacy.
And, you know, are my God, my kid'll, never let me touch their
phone. Well, you're the parent, right?
Absolutely. I mean I remember when I was a
kid, you've got it. You've got a person of the
opposite sex in your bedroom. The door stays open you know you
(41:54):
want to fuck around and find out.
Dad will take your door off the hinges if he has to, you know,
it's like you say It's not abouttrying to protect their feelings
because you took the phone away.I mean, is it is it more?
The fact you try and protect their feelings or are you trying
to avoid a tantrum and at the same time putting your child
safety at risk? Yeah, I mean if my if my kid
(42:16):
wanted to you know like run out onto the freeway, I'd be having
some pretty Stern words. That's dangerous.
Don't do it? I'd stand in front of them.
I grabbed them, if they tried todo it, but if my kids like, oh,
fuck off, you know, I'm taking my phone to my bedroom.
It's 10:00 at night and I'll go to you know unsupervised or
whatever. Look I think you know I think
(42:38):
there will be a Tipping Point and my hope for the future is
that you know like I'm a 70s kidwhere you know you drive into
State without seat belts. While your old man was smoking a
fucking pipe in the car, with the windows rolled up and you
know now we all sit back and go,oh my God, can you believe that?
(43:00):
I did that. I hope that, you know, in a
generation or two was like, oh my God, can you believe that
parents used to let us take the these things into one pitch into
our bedrooms. What were they thinking?
Another thing that I really wantto talk to your listeners about
is you have got to acknowledge the exposure to your children,
(43:22):
to pawn. The average age of exposure to
hardcore pornography in Australia, is 7.
Now this is going to 0 Kids perception of what the world's
like unfortunately for them, thekids, the Predators not had a
product play on that. You know what have you been
looking at? What have you saying blah blah
blah, while they're pretending to be kids themselves, I'll show
(43:44):
you this. You know, yadda yadda, you know,
new enticing, it attract children that way.
So you know it's another conversation that we need to
have and it's a different podcast episode.
But yeah look I mean I'm entering that filled with
another project. T', I'm looking at
neuroplasticity in children and the effects of pornography and
(44:05):
yeah. It's it's what the law
enforcement community of said you've got to address this
because we can't stop him. Absolutely and I mean that's one
of my biggest fears as well you know it's not like again when we
were kids trying to smuggle a Playboy or Penthouse out of the
newsagent. I mean I remember clearly doing
work experience and they'd be porno mags in the toilet where I
(44:28):
was doing work experience. Stuff.
Like it's not like that anymore,it is so readily available and I
look forward to when you finish your project on neuroplasticity
and children I look forward to listening and looking into that
because you're right, I mean, atsuch a young age then seeing
hardcore pornography it completely rewires the brain.
(44:51):
It just makes them more susceptible.
That's the main problem. It just makes them way more
susceptible to grooming. So yeah, it's just conversations
That parents need to have and I'm not going to I'm not going
to, I'm not going to say, you know, like how to do it or
whatever. I think there's a lot of
different perspectives out therebut I think it's vital for
parents to start researching it and work out what works for them
(45:15):
and their kids. Absolutely.
The other thing as well, I want to touch on and I'm kind of want
to get your thoughts on this as well.
Is that since I discovered your podcast I've been having
conversations with my wife of like how do we handle technology
in this house? With with our child, you know,
and I don't know if this is going to be the way to get
(45:35):
around it and you'll probably more in the know, having done
this research than I am. But we looked at the work around
that, okay. He doesn't need a phone, not at
7 years old or 8, years old, even at 10:12.
He doesn't need a phone, but maybe with like a smartwatch,
he's still able to make a phone call to an emergency contact if
(45:57):
he's in a bind. But I mean I'm not well-versed
in Smart watches as well. I'm sure they have internet
capabilities to an extent. But I mean, what are some of
these ways that we can get around, being able to keep in
touch with our kids and not having a phone in their hands
look? Yeah, I think a lot of parents
(46:17):
don't realize how early you can talk to your kids about tech and
I think you need to start talking to kids about tech at a
preschool age. There's a lot of kids who would
just spend hours I was on iPads Parisian content at very young
ages 34. You know you take it out, take
(46:39):
your kid out to a restaurant andthey get Restless you know I
mean back in the day it was likeyour dad tells you to you know
shut up at the shut up at the table.
You kind of you kind of did the Tantrums that they had and you
know, parents could they use it as the you know the ultimate
shut up, you know, all right, you know, he's having a bad day,
(47:00):
he died. Jump on the iPad, yada yada yada
but I think you need to, you know, what?
I'll talk about one thing that'scome out of a lot of research is
that people are trying to teach kids about technology by using
the same blueprints as teaching.The kids about childhood
(47:20):
obesity, too much of a good thing is bad for you.
So monitor the amount of time nodevices at the dinner table
noted Vices in your room, you got to leave your phone out to
charge, I mean, all these things, you know, need to be
incorporated in an early age andunfortunately we a lot of the
(47:41):
times we're trying to take our devices off kids, when they're
14 15, it's too late. Miss the boat.
So, yeah, I think, you know, like, you know, one of the buzz
words is going around at the moment is teaching your kid
internet. Hi, Jen.
Just what's right. What's wrong?
How to navigate, how much time to spend on Earth, decompression
(48:04):
after you've been on the internet?
And, of course, you know, God's sakes, go out and get some fresh
air and climb a tree or, you know, all that sort of stuff as
well comes in handy. But, yeah, look, it's Sickly
acknowledging. The technology is going to be a
part of their lives period. You can't take it away from them
(48:25):
and when you're saying, you know, your kid doesn't need a
phone. I don't know.
I kind of disagree with that. I'm going to experiment with my
child who's now a by giving her her first phone but you can only
contact Mom and Dad. That's it.
That's all you need to do so. Let her developing numeracy and
literacy skills by typing a textmessages and you know being in
(48:47):
contact and Knowing but you knowif Mom and Dad want the phone,
you got to give it back, you know, it's not yours.
You're just learning it. Yeah, my wife and I are in a
similar boat at the moment and we're trying to figure out how
to navigate it. I mean even I think about three
years ago when I first started the podcast, I was talking to
(49:08):
another dad and really debating about whether we get at the
time. It was for whether we get our
four-year-old, a tablet for educational purposes.
Has. And I was, I was talking to him,
like, Hey, how do you handle things in your house and, and
there's because, you know, I'm adigital immigrant, like yourself
and I'm still learning the dangers of the internet and
(49:32):
technology and it, it moves so quickly.
It's really hard to keep up and I'm, as guilty as anybody of
getting caught in a good old Doom, scroll and just sitting
there for hours, just swiping, you know?
I mean, it's that other parent or thing of like if, you know,
If you know what you're doing, don't deny the fact of being in
denial that, that's what you keep could be doing as well.
(49:55):
I got a lot of parents going, you know like oh my God, I'm so
shocked that, you know, kids have exposure to porn at that
age. Like, how did how does that
happen? I mean, look, older kids can be
blamed, blah, blah blah, but youknow, man kids are Wily.
That's smart. They can be looking on your
phone. So can you been looking at it?
(50:17):
Yeah, that's a good point. That's good point.
And don't underestimate what kids have been doing.
I have seen child abuse videos of four-year-olds live streaming
on YouTube for years old. And I'm not surprised that kids
are exhibiting that type of behavior, like, you know,
(50:38):
twerking or whatever, they've seen music videos, I still
scratch. My head was like, how did that
kid? Learn how to live stream, you
know, a 45? The world.
The chances are somebody's told him he's been instructed.
So yeah we look I think I think it's acknowledgment and
(50:59):
admitting that there is a problem is the first part of it
the solutions then come from there.
If we pretend that there isn't one.
Look where we are. Look one thing I want to touch
on here as well. Okay, Ms I really want to drive
home. The point of how severe this
shit is so throughout your investigation doing doing the
(51:22):
podcast for the documentary. It really turned your life
upside down, you know, it fuckedwith your head big time.
In fact, you made a comment in the last episode where you said,
I'm not going to say that the project had an impact on my
marriage and your daughter said almost in a way of life.
(51:45):
Are you crazy? Dad?
Like you don't think it had an impact like how did this affect
you as a father to be knowing and seeing this material and and
knowing that it's out there. The worst part of it is I became
Alienated from my child's childhood.
(52:07):
There were times where, you know, I'd take my little one
too. Now, I live in bond.
I'd take my little one to the kids pool and I'd look around
and I just go on my god. There are people out there that
want to cause all these childrenso much pain and my heart would
sink, you know? And I, yeah, I felt alienated
(52:30):
from that, you know, that I was hyper Vigilant.
What's a person doing? Looking at my kid don't smile on
my kid, blah, blah, blah. And you know it's not it's not a
world that I want to live in butYes, the material is so toxic.
(52:50):
What did this way investigators have ways of viewing, the
material and one golden rule is you never watch a clip with the
audio. It's it, there's just something
about the audio and the video together, like you view them
separately, something about it together that just hammers home,
the reality of it and it stops the cops doing their job of
(53:12):
identifying. Those kids.
It just becomes so horrific and all the cops had same thing.
You'll you know, you you I can. I mean, When John says I can
dial up cases. You know after being a 30-year
investigator I can dial up caseslike that and There are things
that just there are things that won't leave you ever.
(53:34):
The frightening thing is that those who abuse children have
invented so much mental gymnastics to justify viewing
that material. Some of them even put warnings,
this kid will scream, this kid will cry, so, you know, ton of
to listen to the, to the audio. But it's it is it's it's a rific
(54:01):
in that respect and then a lot of the offenders are so the same
the same thing our but the kid was smiling.
The kid was the Laughing. The kid was giggling that stuff
hurts so much because you realize that that abuser has as
warped and manipulated every single thing that a responsible
(54:23):
parent does you know love and play and care to groom that
child to believe those activities are normal.
You know, the normalization of the abuse and yeah, I mean you
know the the manipulation that goes involved in that is yeah,
(54:44):
yeah, it was really was really hard for me to accept. but, In
short, I think any type of abuseto Children is horrible is a
terrific business scale of all this is worse than that you know
in my eyes so having to accept it like that was.
Yeah the thing that you know really helped me get through and
(55:07):
psychiatrists and meditation andyou know all that good shit that
you got to do to keep yourself sound.
Yeah help me you know make the podcast and make content and
keep on working. You know to this day and people
kind of say, you know looked on man, you know, I mean haven't
you had enough? You know, your documentary maker
when you're going to, you know, make a dock on meerkats or
(55:29):
something like that. You know do something light, why
do you keep on continuing? And you know when when is enough
going to be enough? My answer is really simple.
I'll stop what I'm not required.You know, the people that I work
with you they keep on asking me to do stuff.
I'll do it and there's a lot more stuff that needs to be
done. Look at came, we are running out
(55:52):
of time for this episode, but one thing I do want to touch on
On before we do go, is that there are obviously things that
we can do as parents to protect our kids and it's not just
monitoring their use of devices.Now, one one, big thing that
jumps out at me is our actions on social media.
(56:13):
I see all the time parents putting up as it happens all the
time. First day of school school
photos and they've got these lovely smiling kids with their
school uniforms on with the emblem right there.
That tells people essentially, what suburb you living in where
they go to school and where to find these kids, what are some
(56:36):
other brief tips that you might have that we can through our own
internet, use that we can protect Akhtar kids.
Yeah, be careful about who you send your photos to.
Obviously even if you're on Facebook, you can set up closed
groups to share those beautiful moments with family and friends
and people that you trust and not other 800 people that you
(56:58):
might have met in the pub and become mates with on Facebook,
you know, so, yeah, just just bejust being just be cautious.
But once again, I think it's, you know, like if you
acknowledge that, Facebook is a place where people do find and
Children be aware that people will abuse that material.
So, you know, just be vigilant about who you send it to.
(57:20):
That's that in terms of posting content, you know, some people
go so far as like they will never post pictures of their
kids. They'll never post, you know,
single women will never post photos of their kids on dating
sites. Dad's on dating sites, you know,
never post photos of their kids that to me is common fucking
sense. You're on a dating site, you
(57:42):
don't Need to show how good a dad you are with your kids in
there. Just be clever.
That's what predators do they hunt?
So they'll look for people who put images up like that.
So yeah, it looks. It's just acknowledging that
there is a that there is a problem.
You'll start developing your ownmechanisms on how to keep your
(58:04):
kids safe and how not to let it fuck with you as well.
Because I think that that's that's one of the main things as
well. A lot of people Feel powerless.
What can I do? What can I do on my God?
The internet. I've got no control over that
year. You do you see you?
Do you do? And another thing is like if you
feel like you've had enough of this bullshit and you feel like
(58:28):
you know the social media companies are just getting away
with it then make a stand complain.
Honestly believed we're nowhere near the Tipping Point at this,
it's going to go on and continueand grow to epidemic levels
already say that it already is that this issue is not just a
(58:52):
Law Enforcement issue. It's a social issue.
We've all have our part to play and it will be tried in the
court of public opinion. So make yourselves heard 100%.
Okay look, I want to thank you so much for having taken Ian,
the time out of your busy schedule to speak to me about
this because it's I mean, it's not a topic that any parent
(59:14):
really wants to think about or talk about.
But like you said, if the silence is there?
Well, then you know, it's only going to keep going and it's
something we need to talk about as uncomfortable as it is.
You know, it's got to happen. But also I want to thank you for
sacrificing your mental health. Personal relationships in your
(59:38):
life that have been affected forto blow the lid off this and
produce this this documentary and podcast to shine a light on
this stuff, man. Like, thank you so much as one
of the, one of the greats in this field.
Dr. Michael Burke, who is known as the Silence of the Lambs guy.
(59:59):
He deals with the offenders but he says, you know, my job is a
bad deal with the offenders but I'd do it for the kids and he
quotes it all the time. That's a quote from the Jewish.
Literature called the talmud there's a quote in there says
that if you can save the life ofone child, you saved the world
and that's my commitment. So if this, you know, if this
(01:00:23):
Can help anyone or and I know that, I know the work that I
have done and continue to do in the background has helped kids.
So you know, it was a funny kindof way, align tables worth it,
what I went through, but luckilyfor me, I had with the support
that I've had. I've come through the other end
and we'll continue to do what I need to do.
(01:00:45):
Thank you, my friend. You you are you're a champion of
the people for sure. A champion my parents.
Hey look I'm just an invitation And as well, if your audience
has questions Q&A, like questions or whatever that they
ask, after reading the podcast, collate, the questions.
And I'm more than happy to come on board and you can read the
(01:01:06):
questions out and I'll do my best to answer them.
And also, you know, if you want to sort of kind of make it a
little bit bigger, I can get oneof the agents from Argos to come
on board with us as well. Look, if you'd be willing to do
a second part with me, that would be amazing.
But yeah, definitely people if you do have your questions fit,
if you're on Spotify you can send me a question through the
(01:01:30):
episode on Spotify or you can send your questions to
not-so-secret dad's business at gmail.com, and I'll compile them
all and get them ready for Acumen.
Hopefully, we can do a part 2 with this definitely, but I'll
keep in touch with you. Okay, again, thank you so much
for coming on the show. Not a problem, man.
(01:01:51):
You have a good. One.
Thanks for listening to the show.
If you want to find out more about today's guest, just check
out the links in the show notes,you can follow the podcast as
well on social media at not-so-secret dad's business or
on our website, not-so-secret dad's business.com.
If you're listening on a podcastor Spotify please rate review
(01:02:12):
the show, it helps more than in realize.
Until next time guys be the bestdad you can be
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