December 20, 2024 • 40 mins
What happens when military innovation meets the strategic prowess of a rising superpower? Our latest episode features expert guest Sonny, who unpacks the rapid evolution of military technology and its implications for global security, focusing on the People's Republic of China's cutting-edge approach. Through Sonny's insights, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of China's systems-based warfare, a strategy that challenges existing technological warfare paradigms and underscores the need for increased awareness and preparedness among global leaders, particularly in the U.S.
Leadership in the military is undergoing a transformation as technology advances and generational gaps become more pronounced. Our discussion delves into the necessity for military leaders to adapt their training techniques to cater to the analytical and digital nature of the younger generation. Sonny highlights the importance of bridging these generational divides, striking a balance between personal connections with team members and maintaining the authority required to lead effectively. This conversation emphasizes the critical investment in both people and technology to ensure mission success in an increasingly complex operational landscape.
The episode also shines a light on the potential and pitfalls of artificial intelligence in modern military strategies. Sonny provides a perspective on how AI can revolutionize intelligence sharing and operational efficiency but warns against the dangers of over-reliance on these technologies. With AI's growing role, it becomes imperative to maintain human oversight and proficiency to prevent complacency. By equipping military personnel with the right policies and education, we explore how AI can be harnessed as a powerful tool to enhance human effort, ensuring that it complements rather than replaces critical human decision-making processes.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
so, uh, again, sunny, before we go, I do have to
mention this camera.
Make sure you know this.
These are the opinions of sunny.
They are not the opinions oranything that have to do with
the US government or theDepartment of Defense, so that
is a disclaimer.
This is not to throw Sonnyunder the bus or have him get in
(00:35):
trouble.
So with that, sonny, how areyou doing today?
I'm doing great, man.
How are you doing?
I'm doing awesome man.
I'm happy to have you here, man, I think we have some good
questions for you.
Yeah, probably some fucked upquestions, I don't know.
We'll see what goes on with it.
But first I just the firstthing I want to go over is just
(00:55):
basic stuff with innovation andtechnologies.
I know you guys just got off ofthe hump of doing that big,
huge tech conference.
What was that thing called?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
TechNet FC.
Yeah, it was TechNet Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, so this actually works perfect, man,
because there's a lot ofdifferent things that I think
you have a good macro and microvision of it, and to talk about
where we're moving in the future, what you see problems, as so
on and so forth.
So, with that, I'm going to goahead and ask you the first
question, dude, and we're goingto get rolling with this.
So the first one, and pardon mebecause I have to read this off
the paper, because my brain isnot big enough to memorize all
(01:36):
these questions, so we're justgoing to go with this Number one
how do you see technologyinfluencing the future of
military operations, especiallyin areas like the intelligence?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
and defense.
So there's a few areas thatthis could go as I was thinking
about it, and there's also anarea of caution with the amount
of technology that we'rebringing into the battlefield.
So a lot of my answers aregoing to have to do with what
our nation's biggest threats arethat are outlined in our
national defense strategies.
Right, and right now.
I mean they say them clearly.
It's unclassified document,it's China, it's Russia, it's
(02:11):
North Korea, it's Iran.
Out of those four, three ofthem exist in the theater that I
have to advise in, so it's aneveryday thing.
So when the PRC, the People'sRepublic of China, started
modernizing, that's really whenthe PRC, the People's Republic
of China, started modernizing.
That's really when the unipolarmoment stopped, right?
So the fall of the Soviet Unionin 1991, up until about the mid
(02:34):
2000s, the US was the onlysuperpower in existence.
So therefore, you didn't haveto modernize your military to
hedge against a threat.
That's equivalent, right, andyou know that from our
background, right?
The people that we werefighting were not in any way
equivalent to what we were andwe had every advantage possible,
right, yeah.
So now that that's changingtechnology is a huge thing.
(02:57):
So what the PRC realized isthey, and it's in their doctrine
that they put out they have asystems-based warfare, and it's
in their doctrine that they putout they have a systems-based
warfare.
So you know, in old militaryschools they'll teach you that
you analyze the enemy's criticalvulnerabilities in their center
of gravity and you attack thosewhere they're weakest.
In the past, with Napoleon,that might've been artillery,
(03:17):
right, he was an artillery guy,he used it well, so his critical
vulnerability would be if youattack that.
The way the PRC sees it is,they have to attack the systems
that we'll use to fight in ahighly technological environment
.
So the things that find, thethings that shoot, the things
that control, they go afterthose and sometimes that could
(03:37):
be kinetically as far asdestroying an actual facility,
and sometimes it could be in thecyberspace, right.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So, sonny, I don't mean to interrupt you on this,
but, but you just brought up a,a, um, a question that I think
all of america needs to know,and I think you probably have an
answer for it.
You know along those lines ofhow they are preparing from that
optic of their attacking thesystems.
Um, how long have they beenpreparing for this, how long
(04:07):
have they been doing this andlike, how long have they
infiltrated this type of stuff?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
so they've had the opportunity they uh mal mao
zedong has in his doctrine tosit back and wait and bide your
time and and don't make noiseand observe.
And they've had the privilegeof watching how we fight for two
decades, yeah.
And then what they started torealize from that is standoff is
(04:31):
good, so that you know if theycould keep us out of their areas
with you know, precision firemunitions that go far
hypersonics, we won't want tohave our aircraft carriers there
and our airplanes and thingslike that.
So they've been observing itand modernizing very fast
because they don't have the samebureaucracy that we do.
(04:51):
It's a good thing to beAmericans and have the checks
that we have, but with militarymodernization it's also good to
be an authoritarian governmentbecause of how fast they can
develop.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I just don't think that most of america realizes
that, like, because everyonelives in a bubble.
Like, um, if you act, if youask anybody around here in
loudon county, um, you knowabout china and what you just
said, right, they would have noclue about that.
What they would know, like, oh,yeah, they suck, but they don't
know the true.
(05:23):
Like okay, yes, it's anadversary, a geopolitical
adversary, but they actuallydon't suck they're actually
pretty fucking good yeah yeahand um, they don't understand
that, that part of it of of um,you know how they, what their,
their course of action is andhas been for years and how
(05:43):
they've infiltrated stuff andthis and the other.
So but I didn't mean tointerrupt you in that first
question.
Do you have anything else?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
A few things and also , just to you know, pivot off of
what you're saying there, weabsolutely and I say this often,
I post about it on my socialmedia we need to raise the
national discourse on theconversations that we're having.
So what the PRC does is theycall it salami slicing, we call
it salami slicing, so they'llpush the boundaries.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Egg roll slicing Egg roll slicing.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
They will, they will, they will push the boundaries
of what's appropriate till theysee that we and our friends
won't tolerate it and they'llback up slightly, but not much.
Yeah, so it's.
You know, they're raising thenoise floor, essentially, and
they'll wait till that becomesthe accepted norm, and then
they'll do it again, and thenthey'll wait till we can't
(06:34):
tolerate it and then they'llstep back.
You see it in the Philippines.
That's where it's happening alot.
Totally, the uh, that's red,you're recording so, to go back
to the motives, though, that wehave to understand, uh, so,
coming out of world war ii, wehad the most powerful military
(06:55):
and, more specifically, the mostpowerful navy, and we were the
first I won't call it an empire,but in history to use its
powerful navy to secure theworld so everybody could prosper
.
Yeah, in the past, the Frenchroots all that shit man the
French and the British used itto dominate their neighbors.
We used a powerful Navy to makeeverybody better.
Yep, what came out of that isan international rules based
(07:18):
order.
What the PRC would like to dois replace that international
order with one that's ran bypower, and them being the power.
So, as they're put in thislittle pressure campaign out
there against our friends andagainst us, and then slightly
backing up till it becomesaccepted, their whole objective
in the background is to disruptthe international order that we
(07:40):
secure and makes everybodyprosper.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, and you know what?
I have a question.
I don't.
I don't know if it's one of theones, it is, it's perfect.
It's going to be about bricks,because I don't.
I just I am 100% confident thatI could walk out in this
hallway here, from this studioand ask someone if they know
what the bricks, what bricks is,and no one knows the barracks.
(08:05):
They don't even know whatbarracks are, I mean.
But seriously, america doesn'tunderstand how that will, how
that is affecting us and howit's going to affect us.
And we'll get to that here in aminute.
But I'm going to move on to thesecond question here, if you
don't mind, unless you haveanything else to add, with that
one.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Well, just as far as technology changing the
battlefield, the not disclaimer,but the caution that I would
have is, as it becomes a moretechnological fight, we have to
make sure that that doesn'treplace our human values.
So at what point does empathyfor what happens in the
battlefield come out of the mindof decision makers?
(08:43):
Because we can't actually seethe impacts that we're having.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, and you know what you just kind of you
brought up.
Did I send you that video withthe, with the CEO?
You did yeah, from Andrel,right.
And the only reason why thatcomes to mind right now is I
think that when you when bigmilitary industrial complex
(09:07):
which I am largely against, I'llstate it, I fucking hate it
when you have that I thinkthat's where a lot of problems
arise.
And what the CEO of Andral wassaying is like this is the time
for the little guy, because wehave to get that innovation in
there and it's not chargingsomeone for some bullshit cable
(09:30):
for $300.
It's people are going to gettheir money's worth and it's
going to be innovative and youknow they're not going to be
relying on you know what thebottom line is to pay their
executives.
And I think that just goes intothe whole thing that we're
talking about right now, becausethat is part of this innovation
(09:51):
and technology is these smallercompanies that have great ideas
and stuff.
Man, people have to find a wayto make them successful, because
that's how we all becomesuccessful with this.
We have to do it All right.
So we're going to move on to thenext question man and um, that
was a good answer, man.
That was you edgy.
You edumacated me as, as you'vedone over the years.
(10:14):
Um, what role does innovationplay in today's military, and
how do you foster a culture ofinnovation within such a
structured organization?
I think that's a dude.
Whatever your reply is, I'vegot many more follow-on
(10:36):
questions.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
So, uh, when I was a few assignments ago, I was a
battalion operations chief, sothat the senior person within
the discipline of what thatbattalion does, the unit it was
about 1,000 people were in itand it was very
technology-focused, and we usedto put on this exercise that we
called Corvistan and it wasbasically we would create a
sandbox with an environment andwe would put the Marines and the
(11:01):
teams in it and we would saydon't focus on the doctrine and
what you've been taught,focusing on accomplishing this.
And what that would do is itwould foster the innovation
that's inside of them, and whatI've learned is innovation comes
closest to the bayonet and notfrom the C-suite.
Yes, so you have to put thesepeople in a position where they
can think outside the boxThey've been touching these
(11:23):
devices longer than you and Ihave where they could think
outside the box.
They've been touching thesedevices longer than you and I
have.
I think when I first met you,we were still using payphones
and calling cards from when wewere going to schools, right,
and remember the payphone booths, and we didn't have these in
our pockets.
So it's not the Master Guns andthe Admiral that are going to
innovate, it's going to be theteams and the people out there.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
It's those guys that are down below, and all the
questions that I have about thisbecause I I mean not being
involved in the us governmentand in military now um, I see
leadership struggles because ofthe generations and and I'm not
(12:04):
saying that the generations arethat are coming behind everybody
or shit I just think that, um,you know, there's that old
saying of you know someone isthat these people are going to
fight hard because they havenothing.
They're going to provide forsomeone, and then those people
are going to do nothing, andthen the whole cycle is going to
(12:26):
go round and round and aroundand around to provide for
someone, and then those peopleare going to do nothing, and
then the whole cycle is going togo round and round and around
and around to provide Right.
And I think we're in that spotright now.
I think the generations evenlike with my son, you know, I
find myself every nightquestioning myself like damn it,
I got to be harder on him, Igot to be harder on this little
guy because this isn't makinghim successful in the world
(12:48):
later.
And I wonder, like, are youseeing that translate in the
military now?
And if it's a bad thing, how dowe change it?
Like, how do we change thattype of culture?
Because you know as well as Ido, innovation comes through
failure.
Everyone has a great idea.
They, they, they struggle to doit.
(13:10):
They fail.
The people that are successfulkeep on failing, keep on failing
, then bam, in today's culture,with these other generations, I
don't see that.
I see failure is like man Ifail and then they're fucking
done.
Um, I don't see that.
I see failure is like man Ifailed and then they're fucking
done.
I don't know if that's playingout in the military now.
I hope it's not, but I see thatyou know that that is in the
(13:34):
general public.
You know failure is is an easything to get by now and it's
like man.
That's, that's horrible.
I hope this isn't how we'rewe're operating in the military.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
No, I don't think it is, and what the seniors in the
military will fail if they don'trealize early is there is a
generational divide, so you haveto put away how you learned and
how you dealt with things andunderstand how they learn and
how they deal with things tocreate the environment.
An example is when you and Icame up in the military, it was
(14:04):
often said do it because I saidso or do it because that's the
way that was done.
What I've noticed with thegeneration that we're leading
now in the military and I'vesaid it before when I talked to
you is arguably the most lethalgeneration I've seen.
They have so much access toinformation.
You have to explain the why tothem on everything and for.
(14:25):
For old folks like us, thatcould get frustrating, but
there's no way around it.
It's how they consumeinformation.
You have to explain why.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
So my argument is and I'm not disagreeing, it's, it's
my.
You know my curiousness aboutthis because you've been through
, you've seen the generationalchanges right, and you're still
in.
You're going to remain to be in.
You've seen from the top down,yeah, and I feel like you know
(14:59):
the way they treat, the way wewere trained in the Marine Corps
is, it doesn't matter, chargethat fucking machine gun bunker
and if you have someone askingwhy, it's when they ask why,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So if you explain to them in their training and while
you're developing them, this iswhy we do those things.
This is why we have See, that'sa a dude, that's the answer I'm
looking for.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
So what you're getting to is like our training
has to be more developed, moreeducational oh yeah, I know I
have a.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I know there's probably a future question on
that and, uh, that's a huge rolein what I do now is how do how
do we develop training for ajoint force that will fight a
highly sophisticated, almostpure military?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
yeah, dude, that that's uh, that's an important
thing, man.
Um, like, when I was after Ihad gotten out, I was, as you
know I mean we've been incontact as if I never got out.
I was training guys and Inoticed a drop off of the level
(16:09):
of operator, and it was.
It was frustrating to me and itmade me not want to train
people.
I was like man, why, like, whyare they asking, why me not want
to train people?
I was like man, why, like, whyare they asking why just I'm
teaching you to fail?
Because failure is going toprovide you an option to, to, to
come up with a solution, to dothe right way.
And there was resistance withthat and I just never.
(16:33):
I couldn't understand why.
But now you know, what you'retelling me is um, okay, they are
going to ask that you have tohave, you have to explain that
in the front end of all this.
Yes, yeah, and it's just adifferent way of doing it, and
leaders have to be more prepared.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yep, and if you don't , if you don't identify that
generational difference, you'llfail every time.
That's right, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Dude, that.
That I mean honestly, man.
We haven't talked about thispersonally.
Um, but that answers a lot offear that I've had.
Like I'm, I'm just in the backof my head.
I'm like these motherfuckersare going to fuck us.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
But you know they'll, they'll take care of the
mission.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Um, so we're going to go on to the next question, but
before we do, we're going totake a pause from it because I
have to get my glasses.
Oh, this is so much better.
I can see.
How does it look.
Do I look smart?
Are you needing some Riz?
(17:36):
Talking trash about the oldergeneration.
My son does Riz.
He calls himself the Rizzler.
The Rizzler, yes, the Rizzler.
Here we are, okay.
So number three, sonny what aresome key leadership skills that
(17:57):
have helped you to navigateboth operational and tech-driven
sides of the military?
I think this is a greatquestion, man, because we had
just discussed.
You have come across thegenerational divide, you've
grown up in it and you have seeneverything from our generation
(18:18):
to now and the challenges, and Ithink that this is a great
question for that.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah.
So a great leadership thingthat I see is preparation with,
with the new generation, becausethey're so analytical.
You really can't fake it tillyou make it.
You have to spend the time andyou have to dedicate yourself to
understanding what you'retalking about, cause remember,
back in the day you could seethrough some people you know and
you have to dedicate yourselfto understanding what you're
(18:45):
talking about, because remember,back in the day you could see
through some people you know andyou could, you could hide
behind a reputation, butnowadays that's that's
completely gone and especiallyin such a tech driven
environment, you really have toyour free time and what you
consume is no longer turn yourbrain off things.
If you're in levels ofleadership, because you have to
catch up, you have to fill thatgap.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
So let me ask you, this man along that, along those
lines.
So before even I ran acrossthis two days ago, what I'm
about to say, before there wasalways the stigma and rules that
you cannot, um fraternize in away with the, the younger crowd,
(19:25):
um to in any way really um withwith the lower rank or and in
in the corporate world andcommercial world.
I see that I just saw it theother day at a manager of a
restaurant Um, now you can't dothat, you're the manager.
Other day at a manager of arestaurant Now you can't do that
, you're the manager, you can'tgo to that person's birthday
(19:47):
party.
What is, is that philosophychanging in the military where
it's like, look, you can't goout and get just fucking shit
house and do stupid shit.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
But you have to get to know your people in this new
way that we're doing things.
If you don't, we.
But you have to get to knowyour people in this new way that
we're doing things.
If you don't, we will notsucceed.
Is that happening?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
It is happening, but it could happen faster.
In my mind there's still some Idon't want to say dinosaurs,
but people that look at it theold way.
I'll tell you this Anybodythat's ever worked for me.
You and I grew up in a teamenvironment and you have to
foster that that you're.
You know people that are goingto listen to what you say, even
when it's hard, are going to doit if they know that you love
(20:25):
them.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
You know, a hundred percent, dude, that's that is.
That goes back to the why thing.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, and there's.
I mean anybody that's everworked for me I've been close to
, but there was never any doubtwho was in charge.
It didn't change that and Ithink that's the fear that some
of the old thinking would haveis that if I get close to you
and you know that I love you,you'll stop listening.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And it's actually the opposite.
I know that you agree with this, so it's not that I will argue
with you on this, because I knowyou agree, but it is.
Sometimes you have to implementthe old way of grabbing someone
by the collar and be like andreestablishing like.
Look man, I may.
You may have thought I wasbeing your best friend, but
(21:15):
guess what?
I'm being your leader and I'mstill your leader, and grabbing
him by the collar.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
It's a great selection tool, right.
If somebody can't exist in thatenvironment, they don't deserve
to be in that environment.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
That's right I agree with that.
Uh, dude, those were greatanswers.
Man, all right, we're, we'regonna, uh, we're gonna skip to
number four now, man, um, Igotta put the old man glasses on
again.
I mean, kia, do I, do I lookgood with glasses, am?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I sexy.
You look like a Jack buddyHolly.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Wait, that motherfucker died on an airplane
.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
All right, here we go .
It's good You're on the no flylist.
Oh fuck.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
All right as a leader , how do you approach training
service members to work withcomplex technologies?
Like what is the approach that?
How we learned was throughfailure.
We talked about this is wethrow technology and we say you
know what?
Here's the manual, learn it, goIf you fail.
(22:17):
Whatever fail is going to makeyou better.
Is there a different method now?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There is.
So I was actually reallyexcited about this question when
I saw it on the pre-read,because it's a lot of what I
have to do now.
Investment, investment in thepeople is the exact thing.
So a big thing that I have toremind some seniors about is we
put a lot of money into thingsand into technology.
We need to take that sameamount of value and put it into
(22:42):
our people for training and givethem the schools that they need
and the things that they needto do, so that technology and I
often say this whenever Dude thething- is is.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I feel like that's always been our philosophy.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It has.
It's just not a grandphilosophy.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
It's not, it's not all the way out there.
It's a team philosophy.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
It's a small okay, and a caution that I would have
is when, when we look at moneyand how the defense department
spends, we can't just make itabout equipment, right?
One of the soft truths, right,as people are more important
than hardware.
It's right up here, dude Yep,yeah.
So, and, and what I often saywhen I get asked this question
and I have to remind people,don't forget to focus on the
(23:21):
people.
So, as of right now, 82% of theUS military is enlisted.
That's a crazy number, right?
So we often say that the NCOand petty officer are the
backbone of what we do, but ifyou consider that math through
the heart and soul, yeah, yeah,100% dude, wow, 82%, 82%.
(23:42):
Damn man and soul.
Yeah, yeah, 100 dude.
Wow, 82, 82, damn.
But yet we spend most of ourmoney on the 18 yeah, why is
that?
It's because it's written inthe law, so goldwater nickels
puts in there that commissionedofficers have congressional
funding for advanced levelschools there's.
It would have to be in an NDAAor something I'd imagine, to
(24:02):
where the and they're gettingbetter about it.
The military is getting better,but all the educational
opportunities that they getadvanced education opportunities
that they give enlisted is toprogress them into becoming the
18% and not making them a betterpart of the 82%.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I feel like you know that topic itself and like, like
you said, it's getting betterand leaders like you have
identified it.
I'm sure there's lots of peoplethat you know that I've
identified that, uh, because youguys all work in circles, but I
feel like that is somethingthat is from like the 1700s,
where enlisted guys didn't gettraining because they couldn't
(24:41):
read, or something likelegitimately yeah, you know what
I mean.
I feel like that's such anoutdated thing, because now I
mean you don't have to have adegree and you could be smart as
fuck because you go to somekind of technical school to
learn how to do computer codingor whatever and you're a genius.
Just because you have a degreedoesn't mean you wipe your ass
(25:03):
differently, and I feel likethat's what the old role was.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
It is and that divide is not there so much anymore.
That's good.
When I was running thatbattalion and I do it.
When I speak at the NCOacademies, one thing I ask them
is and these are corporals,people that have been maybe two,
three years in the Marine CorpsI'll say raise your hand if you
have an undergraduate degree.
And the majority of the roomwill raise their hand.
So that's the like minimum linefor the commissioning right,
(25:30):
and these younger generationjust chose a different route and
we definitely need to do betterabout how we find money.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I'm curious, and I'm sure you've either done it and,
if you haven't, it'd be cool ifyou did go and observe it,
because I know, like you know,the Minx was enlisted one
officer, a lot of our friendswere enlisted one officer, and I
hear the same thing from all ofthem of what they brainwashed
(25:58):
the officers and the thinkingabout enlisted and I'm wondering
if that's changing.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That is changing.
But you also need to watch out.
The Mustangs are great but theyalso have a critical.
Fault is because they wereenlisted Sometime.
They don't listen to seniorenlisted because they feel, oh,
I was already that, so I knowbetter.
And you know, I feel like I'mthrowing a little bit of shade
on the officers.
The officers that I work withare very high caliber.
(26:25):
The best ones that I see have agreat relationship with their
senior enlist.
They have to yes.
What the Marine Corps does greatand I, when I got to speak to
some of the Marine selects atthe Naval Academy with my last
boss, one of the things that Iexplained to him is don't worry,
even as a second lieutenant,we're not going to let you fail
right.
As a second lieutenant, yourfirst assignment is going to be
(26:46):
with a platoon.
You'll lead 30 people.
You will get given a gunnyright and that person has
probably been in, I mean, youwere a platoon sergeant right,
so you had an officer who mostof them now are colonels and
lieutenant colonels that youadvised.
But that relationship is key todeveloping them to become the
(27:06):
general that we want one day.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
And it's key.
So even in the civilian sector,the same thing applies, right?
A really good example is Kia'shusband Chef Joshua Howard.
Right, he's an executive souschef, his executive chef, and
they're one of the toprestaurant.
They are doing just things thatare absolutely amazing.
(27:30):
Right, it's called the Farm atPatamac.
Right, the Restaurant atPatamack, and it's a very
exclusive thing.
But the executive chef there is30 years old and they're
probably going to get a Michelinstar, josh.
(27:50):
He's young, but the executivechef treats Josh and mentors
Josh as if he wants him to getthat star somewhere else later.
And if you go to any techcompany and you have a CEO who's
fostering people underneaththem, I want you to learn how to
be a CEO.
(28:10):
And you be a CEO of a countryor of a company.
I feel like it's the same kindof thing where you've got
officer enlisted.
It's like man, you want theseguys to be successful and run
with things, because it's justgoing to make everybody
successful and it just it's anoverlap, right, it's an overlap
of the whole thing.
(28:31):
And then you know there's thepeople out there that don't see
it that way, the old schoolpeople.
I don't even think they're oldschool, I just think they're
fucking tools.
I don't even think they're oldschool, I just think they're
fucking tools, to be honest, um,where they don't see that man,
that like there's someone that'sgotta be under them or you know
they, they can't know as muchas them, instead of making them
better than them.
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of thepeople that you and I have
(28:52):
talked about that you have beena senior enlisted for, I know I
don't feel like you feel likethat with them.
I feel like they consider youan equal in some ways to make
you successful, and that's whatI think is that will make
everyone successful with thatculture.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, empowerment's a part of leadership.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It's just like being a team leader.
Yeah, You're.
You're training that ATL to bea team leader, to be part of
your lineage, your legacy as agood team leader.
You know, it's the same fuckingthing.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, if you fear being replaced, you're not a
real leader.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
No, fuck no man, that's bullshit.
Dude Like that.
That is someone that issuccessful.
That is happens to be underunderneath is the wrong wording
Right?
You happen to be mentoring themfirst amongst equals.
That is your success man.
(29:52):
Yeah, you know it's like dudeeveryone around you.
You should want to makesuccessful.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Well, think of that.
Like, look at Chris, rightPassarella, when he was young he
had you guys around him, right,yeah, me in a in a distant way.
But look at how successful heis now.
That wasn't because he wasalone on his own running around.
It's because of the earlymentorship, right and and there
was never a fear that you know,oh, he won't need me one day,
(30:17):
you know.
I mean, he still calls us.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
He does, he does, all right.
So I veered off on that, butwe're going to, we're going to,
we're going to come back to thisand once we get to the next
topic, the geopolitical stuff,we're going to take a break
because I have been drinkingtequila and I'm going to have to
take a piss.
So all right, so all right, sosorry, you're going to have to
(30:47):
pee in a bottle back there.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
All right, so or he'll get kicked off YouTube.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
All right, I forgot about my old man glasses.
I can't see this shit anymore.
All right, can you talk aboutthe impact of artificial
intelligence and machinelearning on military strategies
and intelligence?
Now, I understand that youcan't go into doctrine.
You can't go into anythingthat's behind the curtain there.
But you know, with thisquestion, what I'm asking is,
(31:13):
yeah, are we training to it?
Like, at the lowest levels tothe highest levels?
What are we thinking about,like?
What is it we're doing?
Because we know that China isheavily invested in this, and so
are many other countries, sowhat are we doing about it?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So the use of artificial intelligence and what
I see the government doing nowwith it, I'm actually really
happy with.
So they're using it to, andit's even why we use it in our
personal lives to make, to makeprocesses easier.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
So here's an example.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, so here's an.
I don't know if I've seen thisactually out there, but here's
an idea and there's anotherexample I could give on it with
sharing of intelligence withdifferent countries.
There's different rules forthat based on the country that
you are yeah right.
So what if there was a languagemodel that didn't look at
anything out there on on thenetworks and only looked at the
(32:08):
policy and doctrine that you putinto it, and then you had a
report that was, you know, notcensored?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
automation.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
That you could drop in there and say I want to share
this with Tonga, and you clickon it and the only language that
it could reference is thepolicy and the law.
Yeah, and then it'll come out onthe other end and you share it
that quick.
But that process before AI wasmonths.
Yeah, yeah, even in places thatwe worked, we actually had to
(32:38):
classify things, get us policyto change, to classify things
lower, to share it.
Yeah, yeah, but now with ai,you could use that in a
different way, to not bend therules.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
but make it more efficient.
What, what is?
What do you think?
Because here's my fear with aiand ml, um, and I'm I am trying
to be disciplined enough to notlet it happen to me, right, and
so I'm trying to be to alwayshave the mentality of, okay,
(33:10):
using AI at this point right nowis it's a start point and I
still have to do the next.
You know, 35% of work, or maybeit's the front end, right, and
AI is completing the work.
What do you think?
Like, where's the directionthat the military is going, dod
(33:31):
government of making sure thatpeople don't come become 100
dependent on it, because I thinkthat's where we fail when that
happens.
And it's a, it's a super.
I mean honestly, man, like alot of people like us, we fear
that the younger generations, Idon't think, fear that.
Um, what, what do you say aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
uh, two avenues.
I'd like to go down with that.
So, first off, in government,now we are appointing AI czars,
like we do to the border and toclimate change and all those
other things.
So it's people that look atthat and ensure that we use AI
to gain efficiency and not loseproficiency.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's a good way of looking at it.
Kia, can you do me a favor?
Can you write that down?
I like that.
I'm going to steal that fromhim.
Play it dry.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Another way that I look at it too, if I if I could
tell a little story here realquick.
So I have a friend in Hawaii.
That's a local guy, grew upthere, he's a.
He's a high school teacher, buthis background is in being a
librarian.
Right Came up that way in film,he studied film, and I have the
best conversations with himabout AI, because what we talk
about is gaining efficiency,right, and an example that him
(34:44):
and I talked about on a drunknight is what were you drinking?
Probably just some, some Mauibrewing beers or something.
Yeah, as long as it wasn'tbourbon, yeah, no no, no, no, no
, no, no, probably for him aseltzer, maybe for me, zima.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no,probably for him a seltzer.
Maybe Zima, no, no, no, no,good, seltzer, he's good, I'm
joking.
So, one of the things that wetalked about, and I don't think
(35:05):
in academia, that they shouldfear people using language
models for things, because inthe ancient days, if you wanted
to speak educated about a topic,you would have to take a seven
month journey to the library ofAlexandria, you'd have to go
through the scrolls, you'd haveto lead, read whatever language
(35:26):
that was that that put in there,right.
And then, if you fast forwardinto the future and this is the
example he gave me then they had, you know, radio and the
parents would say you know, whyare you listening to the radio
so much?
You should be reading morebooks, right.
And then the TV came out andthe next generation of parents
said why are you watching the TVso much?
You should listen to the radioVideo games, yep, yep.
(35:47):
So we should have figured thesethings they're just actually
making our consumption ofinformation.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Here's another example I'm going to throw to
you, because I feel like you'repretty passionate about this
stuff.
Is the calculator, dude, likethe texas instrument?
Yes, like, think about it, man.
Um, it's mathematical, so it'sdifferent, but in a way, ai,
used in the right way, ismathematical with algorithms and
this and the other.
(36:11):
A calculator is something thatwe have all became.
I am very dependent on acalculator.
Much of the world is, and thatis a.
It's not AI, but it issomething doing the work for you
, so you don't have to use thebrainpower and expend the
brainpower to do it because oneyou weren't educated on it,
(36:33):
whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
I think that's the lowest formand it's kind of a bad example
for depending on AI, but I bringthat up as an example of that's
something we we we us as humanbeings have basically put that
aside and haven't even thoughtabout things like that.
(36:53):
Like things that we've comeaccustomed to is like like Excel
, microsoft Excel.
Come accustomed to is like like, look, dude, calculate excel,
microsoft excel.
How much work does microsoftexcel now do for us through, um,
whatever calculations orwhatever formulas?
Like it's the same fuckingthing, but you didn't do it to,
(37:15):
uh, to cheat or anything.
You did it because it was moreefficient to do it.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You and I actually used Microsoft Excel to find bad
guys.
Yes, we did.
Yes, we did.
A caveat that I'd like to throwin there is you were going down
an angle there that I like, andwhat we do need to show caution
and patience with, though, isidentifying AI hallucinations,
because AI doesn't like to admitthat it's wrong.
Yep, so, as that's why youcan't take the human out of it
(37:42):
and just completely trust it,you have to know where.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
you have to be able to identify the hallucinations
even like in today's models,whether you pay for um, your
subscription with open ai andchat g right or 4.0, you still
have to do your due diligenceand look up links that it gives
(38:05):
you, do a little bit of research, that you cannot 100% go out
the door on certain things.
Now, like you know, fulldisclosure to generate the
questions that I'm giving youtoday, I used AI, but that's, I
think that's a little bit thequestions that I'm giving you
today.
I used AI, but that's, I thinkthat's a little bit different
thing, because I'm not puttingfacts out, these questions that
(38:27):
it pops up, questions that Iprompted to say because I've
actually learned how to do a lotof the prompts and they are not
facts.
It's when you're getting intofacts you have to question it.
You there, absolutely the thehuman brain cannot be like, okay
, that's the fucking answer yeah, ai doesn't give you a license
(38:48):
to be a lazy idiot.
Nope, right, yeah, that's that'suh, that was the whole point of
that.
Second part of the question islike what, what are we doing in
our, our military or dod, wide Isee, to ensure that our people
do not have that mentality andwill never get that mentality?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
first off, you have to embrace it.
You can't fear the use of it,which I think a lot of uh
academic institutions have done.
You have to realize that itdoes make you gain efficiencies.
Right, you have to have policy,you have to have rules, you
(39:32):
have to have training.
You have to put that money backinto where they're not just
getting generated answers to,where they could look at that
and say, oh, I've been educatedenough to where I know that is a
wrong answer or hallucination.
You have to train them onprompts.
Right, with AI it's not a typesomething in and hit enter.
You have to understand how totalk to it to get what you want,
and that comes from trainingand education 100%, and I've got
(39:53):
more to talk about that as wego through this, but right now
let's take a break.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
My eyeballs are floating.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
You won't piss in your pants, right.
so, uh, again, sunny, before we go, I do have to
mention this camera.
Make sure you know this.
These are the opinions of sunny.
They are not the opinions oranything that have to do with
the US government or theDepartment of Defense, so that
is a disclaimer.
This is not to throw Sonnyunder the bus or have him get in
(00:35):
trouble.
So with that, sonny, how areyou doing today?
I'm doing great, man.
How are you doing?
I'm doing awesome man.
I'm happy to have you here, man, I think we have some good
questions for you.
Yeah, probably some fucked upquestions, I don't know.
We'll see what goes on with it.
But first I just the firstthing I want to go over is just
(00:55):
basic stuff with innovation andtechnologies.
I know you guys just got off ofthe hump of doing that big,
huge tech conference.
What was that thing called?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
TechNet FC.
Yeah, it was TechNet Hawaii.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Yeah, so this actually works perfect, man,
because there's a lot ofdifferent things that I think
you have a good macro and microvision of it, and to talk about
where we're moving in the future, what you see problems, as so
on and so forth.
So, with that, I'm going to goahead and ask you the first
question, dude, and we're goingto get rolling with this.
So the first one, and pardon mebecause I have to read this off
the paper, because my brain isnot big enough to memorize all
(01:36):
these questions, so we're justgoing to go with this Number one
how do you see technologyinfluencing the future of
military operations, especiallyin areas like the intelligence?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
and defense.
So there's a few areas thatthis could go as I was thinking
about it, and there's also anarea of caution with the amount
of technology that we'rebringing into the battlefield.
So a lot of my answers aregoing to have to do with what
our nation's biggest threats arethat are outlined in our
national defense strategies.
Right, and right now.
I mean they say them clearly.
It's unclassified document,it's China, it's Russia, it's
(02:11):
North Korea, it's Iran.
Out of those four, three ofthem exist in the theater that I
have to advise in, so it's aneveryday thing.
So when the PRC, the People'sRepublic of China, started
modernizing, that's really whenthe PRC, the People's Republic
of China, started modernizing.
That's really when the unipolarmoment stopped, right?
So the fall of the Soviet Unionin 1991, up until about the mid
(02:34):
2000s, the US was the onlysuperpower in existence.
So therefore, you didn't haveto modernize your military to
hedge against a threat.
That's equivalent, right, andyou know that from our
background, right?
The people that we werefighting were not in any way
equivalent to what we were andwe had every advantage possible,
right, yeah.
So now that that's changingtechnology is a huge thing.
(02:57):
So what the PRC realized isthey, and it's in their doctrine
that they put out they have asystems-based warfare, and it's
in their doctrine that they putout they have a systems-based
warfare.
So you know, in old militaryschools they'll teach you that
you analyze the enemy's criticalvulnerabilities in their center
of gravity and you attack thosewhere they're weakest.
In the past, with Napoleon,that might've been artillery,
(03:17):
right, he was an artillery guy,he used it well, so his critical
vulnerability would be if youattack that.
The way the PRC sees it is,they have to attack the systems
that we'll use to fight in ahighly technological environment
.
So the things that find, thethings that shoot, the things
that control, they go afterthose and sometimes that could
(03:37):
be kinetically as far asdestroying an actual facility,
and sometimes it could be in thecyberspace, right.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So, sonny, I don't mean to interrupt you on this,
but, but you just brought up a,a, um, a question that I think
all of america needs to know,and I think you probably have an
answer for it.
You know along those lines ofhow they are preparing from that
optic of their attacking thesystems.
Um, how long have they beenpreparing for this, how long
(04:07):
have they been doing this andlike, how long have they
infiltrated this type of stuff?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
so they've had the opportunity they uh mal mao
zedong has in his doctrine tosit back and wait and bide your
time and and don't make noiseand observe.
And they've had the privilegeof watching how we fight for two
decades, yeah.
And then what they started torealize from that is standoff is
(04:31):
good, so that you know if theycould keep us out of their areas
with you know, precision firemunitions that go far
hypersonics, we won't want tohave our aircraft carriers there
and our airplanes and thingslike that.
So they've been observing itand modernizing very fast
because they don't have the samebureaucracy that we do.
(04:51):
It's a good thing to beAmericans and have the checks
that we have, but with militarymodernization it's also good to
be an authoritarian governmentbecause of how fast they can
develop.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I just don't think that most of america realizes
that, like, because everyonelives in a bubble.
Like, um, if you act, if youask anybody around here in
loudon county, um, you knowabout china and what you just
said, right, they would have noclue about that.
What they would know, like, oh,yeah, they suck, but they don't
know the true.
(05:23):
Like okay, yes, it's anadversary, a geopolitical
adversary, but they actuallydon't suck they're actually
pretty fucking good yeah yeahand um, they don't understand
that, that part of it of of um,you know how they, what their,
their course of action is andhas been for years and how
(05:43):
they've infiltrated stuff andthis and the other.
So but I didn't mean tointerrupt you in that first
question.
Do you have anything else?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
A few things and also , just to you know, pivot off of
what you're saying there, weabsolutely and I say this often,
I post about it on my socialmedia we need to raise the
national discourse on theconversations that we're having.
So what the PRC does is theycall it salami slicing, we call
it salami slicing, so they'llpush the boundaries.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Egg roll slicing Egg roll slicing.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
They will, they will, they will push the boundaries
of what's appropriate till theysee that we and our friends
won't tolerate it and they'llback up slightly, but not much.
Yeah, so it's.
You know, they're raising thenoise floor, essentially, and
they'll wait till that becomesthe accepted norm, and then
they'll do it again, and thenthey'll wait till we can't
(06:34):
tolerate it and then they'llstep back.
You see it in the Philippines.
That's where it's happening alot.
Totally, the uh, that's red,you're recording so, to go back
to the motives, though, that wehave to understand, uh, so,
coming out of world war ii, wehad the most powerful military
(06:55):
and, more specifically, the mostpowerful navy, and we were the
first I won't call it an empire,but in history to use its
powerful navy to secure theworld so everybody could prosper
.
Yeah, in the past, the Frenchroots all that shit man the
French and the British used itto dominate their neighbors.
We used a powerful Navy to makeeverybody better.
Yep, what came out of that isan international rules based
(07:18):
order.
What the PRC would like to dois replace that international
order with one that's ran bypower, and them being the power.
So, as they're put in thislittle pressure campaign out
there against our friends andagainst us, and then slightly
backing up till it becomesaccepted, their whole objective
in the background is to disruptthe international order that we
(07:40):
secure and makes everybodyprosper.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Yeah, and you know what?
I have a question.
I don't.
I don't know if it's one of theones, it is, it's perfect.
It's going to be about bricks,because I don't.
I just I am 100% confident thatI could walk out in this
hallway here, from this studioand ask someone if they know
what the bricks, what bricks is,and no one knows the barracks.
(08:05):
They don't even know whatbarracks are, I mean.
But seriously, america doesn'tunderstand how that will, how
that is affecting us and howit's going to affect us.
And we'll get to that here in aminute.
But I'm going to move on to thesecond question here, if you
don't mind, unless you haveanything else to add, with that
one.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Well, just as far as technology changing the
battlefield, the not disclaimer,but the caution that I would
have is, as it becomes a moretechnological fight, we have to
make sure that that doesn'treplace our human values.
So at what point does empathyfor what happens in the
battlefield come out of the mindof decision makers?
(08:43):
Because we can't actually seethe impacts that we're having.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah, and you know what you just kind of you
brought up.
Did I send you that video withthe, with the CEO?
You did yeah, from Andrel,right.
And the only reason why thatcomes to mind right now is I
think that when you when bigmilitary industrial complex
(09:07):
which I am largely against, I'llstate it, I fucking hate it
when you have that I thinkthat's where a lot of problems
arise.
And what the CEO of Andral wassaying is like this is the time
for the little guy, because wehave to get that innovation in
there and it's not chargingsomeone for some bullshit cable
(09:30):
for $300.
It's people are going to gettheir money's worth and it's
going to be innovative and youknow they're not going to be
relying on you know what thebottom line is to pay their
executives.
And I think that just goes intothe whole thing that we're
talking about right now, becausethat is part of this innovation
(09:51):
and technology is these smallercompanies that have great ideas
and stuff.
Man, people have to find a wayto make them successful, because
that's how we all becomesuccessful with this.
We have to do it All right.
So we're going to move on to thenext question man and um, that
was a good answer, man.
That was you edgy.
You edumacated me as, as you'vedone over the years.
(10:14):
Um, what role does innovationplay in today's military, and
how do you foster a culture ofinnovation within such a
structured organization?
I think that's a dude.
Whatever your reply is, I'vegot many more follow-on
(10:36):
questions.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
So, uh, when I was a few assignments ago, I was a
battalion operations chief, sothat the senior person within
the discipline of what thatbattalion does, the unit it was
about 1,000 people were in itand it was very
technology-focused, and we usedto put on this exercise that we
called Corvistan and it wasbasically we would create a
sandbox with an environment andwe would put the Marines and the
(11:01):
teams in it and we would saydon't focus on the doctrine and
what you've been taught,focusing on accomplishing this.
And what that would do is itwould foster the innovation
that's inside of them, and whatI've learned is innovation comes
closest to the bayonet and notfrom the C-suite.
Yes, so you have to put thesepeople in a position where they
can think outside the boxThey've been touching these
(11:23):
devices longer than you and Ihave where they could think
outside the box.
They've been touching thesedevices longer than you and I
have.
I think when I first met you,we were still using payphones
and calling cards from when wewere going to schools, right,
and remember the payphone booths, and we didn't have these in
our pockets.
So it's not the Master Guns andthe Admiral that are going to
innovate, it's going to be theteams and the people out there.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
It's those guys that are down below, and all the
questions that I have about thisbecause I I mean not being
involved in the us governmentand in military now um, I see
leadership struggles because ofthe generations and and I'm not
(12:04):
saying that the generations arethat are coming behind everybody
or shit I just think that, um,you know, there's that old
saying of you know someone isthat these people are going to
fight hard because they havenothing.
They're going to provide forsomeone, and then those people
are going to do nothing, andthen the whole cycle is going to
(12:26):
go round and round and aroundand around to provide for
someone, and then those peopleare going to do nothing, and
then the whole cycle is going togo round and round and around
and around to provide Right.
And I think we're in that spotright now.
I think the generations evenlike with my son, you know, I
find myself every nightquestioning myself like damn it,
I got to be harder on him, Igot to be harder on this little
guy because this isn't makinghim successful in the world
(12:48):
later.
And I wonder, like, are youseeing that translate in the
military now?
And if it's a bad thing, how dowe change it?
Like, how do we change thattype of culture?
Because you know as well as Ido, innovation comes through
failure.
Everyone has a great idea.
They, they, they struggle to doit.
(13:10):
They fail.
The people that are successfulkeep on failing, keep on failing
, then bam, in today's culture,with these other generations, I
don't see that.
I see failure is like man Ifail and then they're fucking
done.
Um, I don't see that.
I see failure is like man Ifailed and then they're fucking
done.
I don't know if that's playingout in the military now.
I hope it's not, but I see thatyou know that that is in the
(13:34):
general public.
You know failure is is an easything to get by now and it's
like man.
That's, that's horrible.
I hope this isn't how we'rewe're operating in the military.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
No, I don't think it is, and what the seniors in the
military will fail if they don'trealize early is there is a
generational divide, so you haveto put away how you learned and
how you dealt with things andunderstand how they learn and
how they deal with things tocreate the environment.
An example is when you and Icame up in the military, it was
(14:04):
often said do it because I saidso or do it because that's the
way that was done.
What I've noticed with thegeneration that we're leading
now in the military and I'vesaid it before when I talked to
you is arguably the most lethalgeneration I've seen.
They have so much access toinformation.
You have to explain the why tothem on everything and for.
(14:25):
For old folks like us, thatcould get frustrating, but
there's no way around it.
It's how they consumeinformation.
You have to explain why.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
So my argument is and I'm not disagreeing, it's, it's
my.
You know my curiousness aboutthis because you've been through
, you've seen the generationalchanges right, and you're still
in.
You're going to remain to be in.
You've seen from the top down,yeah, and I feel like you know
(14:59):
the way they treat, the way wewere trained in the Marine Corps
is, it doesn't matter, chargethat fucking machine gun bunker
and if you have someone askingwhy, it's when they ask why,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So if you explain to them in their training and while
you're developing them, this iswhy we do those things.
This is why we have See, that'sa a dude, that's the answer I'm
looking for.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
So what you're getting to is like our training
has to be more developed, moreeducational oh yeah, I know I
have a.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
I know there's probably a future question on
that and, uh, that's a huge rolein what I do now is how do how
do we develop training for ajoint force that will fight a
highly sophisticated, almostpure military?
Speaker 1 (15:46):
yeah, dude, that that's uh, that's an important
thing, man.
Um, like, when I was after Ihad gotten out, I was, as you
know I mean we've been incontact as if I never got out.
I was training guys and Inoticed a drop off of the level
(16:09):
of operator, and it was.
It was frustrating to me and itmade me not want to train
people.
I was like man, why, like, whyare they asking, why me not want
to train people?
I was like man, why, like, whyare they asking why just I'm
teaching you to fail?
Because failure is going toprovide you an option to, to, to
come up with a solution, to dothe right way.
And there was resistance withthat and I just never.
(16:33):
I couldn't understand why.
But now you know, what you'retelling me is um, okay, they are
going to ask that you have tohave, you have to explain that
in the front end of all this.
Yes, yeah, and it's just adifferent way of doing it, and
leaders have to be more prepared.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Yep, and if you don't , if you don't identify that
generational difference, you'llfail every time.
That's right, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Dude, that.
That I mean honestly, man.
We haven't talked about thispersonally.
Um, but that answers a lot offear that I've had.
Like I'm, I'm just in the backof my head.
I'm like these motherfuckersare going to fuck us.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
But you know they'll, they'll take care of the
mission.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Um, so we're going to go on to the next question, but
before we do, we're going totake a pause from it because I
have to get my glasses.
Oh, this is so much better.
I can see.
How does it look.
Do I look smart?
Are you needing some Riz?
(17:36):
Talking trash about the oldergeneration.
My son does Riz.
He calls himself the Rizzler.
The Rizzler, yes, the Rizzler.
Here we are, okay.
So number three, sonny what aresome key leadership skills that
(17:57):
have helped you to navigateboth operational and tech-driven
sides of the military?
I think this is a greatquestion, man, because we had
just discussed.
You have come across thegenerational divide, you've
grown up in it and you have seeneverything from our generation
(18:18):
to now and the challenges, and Ithink that this is a great
question for that.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah.
So a great leadership thingthat I see is preparation with,
with the new generation, becausethey're so analytical.
You really can't fake it tillyou make it.
You have to spend the time andyou have to dedicate yourself to
understanding what you'retalking about, cause remember,
back in the day you could seethrough some people you know and
you have to dedicate yourselfto understanding what you're
(18:45):
talking about, because remember,back in the day you could see
through some people you know andyou could, you could hide
behind a reputation, butnowadays that's that's
completely gone and especiallyin such a tech driven
environment, you really have toyour free time and what you
consume is no longer turn yourbrain off things.
If you're in levels ofleadership, because you have to
catch up, you have to fill thatgap.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
So let me ask you, this man along that, along those
lines.
So before even I ran acrossthis two days ago, what I'm
about to say, before there wasalways the stigma and rules that
you cannot, um fraternize in away with the, the younger crowd,
(19:25):
um to in any way really um withwith the lower rank or and in
in the corporate world andcommercial world.
I see that I just saw it theother day at a manager of a
restaurant Um, now you can't dothat, you're the manager.
Other day at a manager of arestaurant Now you can't do that
, you're the manager, you can'tgo to that person's birthday
(19:47):
party.
What is, is that philosophychanging in the military where
it's like, look, you can't goout and get just fucking shit
house and do stupid shit.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
But you have to get to know your people in this new
way that we're doing things.
If you don't, we.
But you have to get to knowyour people in this new way that
we're doing things.
If you don't, we will notsucceed.
Is that happening?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
It is happening, but it could happen faster.
In my mind there's still some Idon't want to say dinosaurs,
but people that look at it theold way.
I'll tell you this Anybodythat's ever worked for me.
You and I grew up in a teamenvironment and you have to
foster that that you're.
You know people that are goingto listen to what you say, even
when it's hard, are going to doit if they know that you love
(20:25):
them.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
You know, a hundred percent, dude, that's that is.
That goes back to the why thing.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, and there's.
I mean anybody that's everworked for me I've been close to
, but there was never any doubtwho was in charge.
It didn't change that and Ithink that's the fear that some
of the old thinking would haveis that if I get close to you
and you know that I love you,you'll stop listening.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
And it's actually the opposite.
I know that you agree with this, so it's not that I will argue
with you on this, because I knowyou agree, but it is.
Sometimes you have to implementthe old way of grabbing someone
by the collar and be like andreestablishing like.
Look man, I may.
You may have thought I wasbeing your best friend, but
(21:15):
guess what?
I'm being your leader and I'mstill your leader, and grabbing
him by the collar.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
It's a great selection tool, right.
If somebody can't exist in thatenvironment, they don't deserve
to be in that environment.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
That's right I agree with that.
Uh, dude, those were greatanswers.
Man, all right, we're, we'regonna, uh, we're gonna skip to
number four now, man, um, Igotta put the old man glasses on
again.
I mean, kia, do I, do I lookgood with glasses, am?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I sexy.
You look like a Jack buddyHolly.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Wait, that motherfucker died on an airplane
.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
All right, here we go .
It's good You're on the no flylist.
Oh fuck.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
All right as a leader , how do you approach training
service members to work withcomplex technologies?
Like what is the approach that?
How we learned was throughfailure.
We talked about this is wethrow technology and we say you
know what?
Here's the manual, learn it, goIf you fail.
(22:17):
Whatever fail is going to makeyou better.
Is there a different method now?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
There is.
So I was actually reallyexcited about this question when
I saw it on the pre-read,because it's a lot of what I
have to do now.
Investment, investment in thepeople is the exact thing.
So a big thing that I have toremind some seniors about is we
put a lot of money into thingsand into technology.
We need to take that sameamount of value and put it into
(22:42):
our people for training and givethem the schools that they need
and the things that they needto do, so that technology and I
often say this whenever Dude thething- is is.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
I feel like that's always been our philosophy.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It has.
It's just not a grandphilosophy.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
It's not, it's not all the way out there.
It's a team philosophy.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
It's a small okay, and a caution that I would have
is when, when we look at moneyand how the defense department
spends, we can't just make itabout equipment, right?
One of the soft truths, right,as people are more important
than hardware.
It's right up here, dude Yep,yeah.
So, and, and what I often saywhen I get asked this question
and I have to remind people,don't forget to focus on the
(23:21):
people.
So, as of right now, 82% of theUS military is enlisted.
That's a crazy number, right?
So we often say that the NCOand petty officer are the
backbone of what we do, but ifyou consider that math through
the heart and soul, yeah, yeah,100% dude, wow, 82%, 82%.
(23:42):
Damn man and soul.
Yeah, yeah, 100 dude.
Wow, 82, 82, damn.
But yet we spend most of ourmoney on the 18 yeah, why is
that?
It's because it's written inthe law, so goldwater nickels
puts in there that commissionedofficers have congressional
funding for advanced levelschools there's.
It would have to be in an NDAAor something I'd imagine, to
(24:02):
where the and they're gettingbetter about it.
The military is getting better,but all the educational
opportunities that they getadvanced education opportunities
that they give enlisted is toprogress them into becoming the
18% and not making them a betterpart of the 82%.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
I feel like you know that topic itself and like, like
you said, it's getting betterand leaders like you have
identified it.
I'm sure there's lots of peoplethat you know that I've
identified that, uh, because youguys all work in circles, but I
feel like that is somethingthat is from like the 1700s,
where enlisted guys didn't gettraining because they couldn't
(24:41):
read, or something likelegitimately yeah, you know what
I mean.
I feel like that's such anoutdated thing, because now I
mean you don't have to have adegree and you could be smart as
fuck because you go to somekind of technical school to
learn how to do computer codingor whatever and you're a genius.
Just because you have a degreedoesn't mean you wipe your ass
(25:03):
differently, and I feel likethat's what the old role was.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
It is and that divide is not there so much anymore.
That's good.
When I was running thatbattalion and I do it.
When I speak at the NCOacademies, one thing I ask them
is and these are corporals,people that have been maybe two,
three years in the Marine CorpsI'll say raise your hand if you
have an undergraduate degree.
And the majority of the roomwill raise their hand.
So that's the like minimum linefor the commissioning right,
(25:30):
and these younger generationjust chose a different route and
we definitely need to do betterabout how we find money.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
I'm curious, and I'm sure you've either done it and,
if you haven't, it'd be cool ifyou did go and observe it,
because I know, like you know,the Minx was enlisted one
officer, a lot of our friendswere enlisted one officer, and I
hear the same thing from all ofthem of what they brainwashed
(25:58):
the officers and the thinkingabout enlisted and I'm wondering
if that's changing.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
That is changing.
But you also need to watch out.
The Mustangs are great but theyalso have a critical.
Fault is because they wereenlisted Sometime.
They don't listen to seniorenlisted because they feel, oh,
I was already that, so I knowbetter.
And you know, I feel like I'mthrowing a little bit of shade
on the officers.
The officers that I work withare very high caliber.
(26:25):
The best ones that I see have agreat relationship with their
senior enlist.
They have to yes.
What the Marine Corps does greatand I, when I got to speak to
some of the Marine selects atthe Naval Academy with my last
boss, one of the things that Iexplained to him is don't worry,
even as a second lieutenant,we're not going to let you fail
right.
As a second lieutenant, yourfirst assignment is going to be
(26:46):
with a platoon.
You'll lead 30 people.
You will get given a gunnyright and that person has
probably been in, I mean, youwere a platoon sergeant right,
so you had an officer who mostof them now are colonels and
lieutenant colonels that youadvised.
But that relationship is key todeveloping them to become the
(27:06):
general that we want one day.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
And it's key.
So even in the civilian sector,the same thing applies, right?
A really good example is Kia'shusband Chef Joshua Howard.
Right, he's an executive souschef, his executive chef, and
they're one of the toprestaurant.
They are doing just things thatare absolutely amazing.
(27:30):
Right, it's called the Farm atPatamac.
Right, the Restaurant atPatamack, and it's a very
exclusive thing.
But the executive chef there is30 years old and they're
probably going to get a Michelinstar, josh.
(27:50):
He's young, but the executivechef treats Josh and mentors
Josh as if he wants him to getthat star somewhere else later.
And if you go to any techcompany and you have a CEO who's
fostering people underneaththem, I want you to learn how to
be a CEO.
(28:10):
And you be a CEO of a countryor of a company.
I feel like it's the same kindof thing where you've got
officer enlisted.
It's like man, you want theseguys to be successful and run
with things, because it's justgoing to make everybody
successful and it just it's anoverlap, right, it's an overlap
of the whole thing.
(28:31):
And then you know there's thepeople out there that don't see
it that way, the old schoolpeople.
I don't even think they're oldschool, I just think they're
fucking tools.
I don't even think they're oldschool, I just think they're
fucking tools, to be honest, um,where they don't see that man,
that like there's someone that'sgotta be under them or you know
they, they can't know as muchas them, instead of making them
better than them.
Yeah, yeah, and a lot of thepeople that you and I have
(28:52):
talked about that you have beena senior enlisted for, I know I
don't feel like you feel likethat with them.
I feel like they consider youan equal in some ways to make
you successful, and that's whatI think is that will make
everyone successful with thatculture.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, empowerment's a part of leadership.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It's just like being a team leader.
Yeah, You're.
You're training that ATL to bea team leader, to be part of
your lineage, your legacy as agood team leader.
You know, it's the same fuckingthing.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, if you fear being replaced, you're not a
real leader.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
No, fuck no man, that's bullshit.
Dude Like that.
That is someone that issuccessful.
That is happens to be underunderneath is the wrong wording
Right?
You happen to be mentoring themfirst amongst equals.
That is your success man.
(29:52):
Yeah, you know it's like dudeeveryone around you.
You should want to makesuccessful.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Well, think of that.
Like, look at Chris, rightPassarella, when he was young he
had you guys around him, right,yeah, me in a in a distant way.
But look at how successful heis now.
That wasn't because he wasalone on his own running around.
It's because of the earlymentorship, right and and there
was never a fear that you know,oh, he won't need me one day,
(30:17):
you know.
I mean, he still calls us.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
He does, he does, all right.
So I veered off on that, butwe're going to, we're going to,
we're going to come back to thisand once we get to the next
topic, the geopolitical stuff,we're going to take a break
because I have been drinkingtequila and I'm going to have to
take a piss.
So all right, so all right, sosorry, you're going to have to
(30:47):
pee in a bottle back there.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
All right, so or he'll get kicked off YouTube.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
All right, I forgot about my old man glasses.
I can't see this shit anymore.
All right, can you talk aboutthe impact of artificial
intelligence and machinelearning on military strategies
and intelligence?
Now, I understand that youcan't go into doctrine.
You can't go into anythingthat's behind the curtain there.
But you know, with thisquestion, what I'm asking is,
(31:13):
yeah, are we training to it?
Like, at the lowest levels tothe highest levels?
What are we thinking about,like?
What is it we're doing?
Because we know that China isheavily invested in this, and so
are many other countries, sowhat are we doing about it?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
So the use of artificial intelligence and what
I see the government doing nowwith it, I'm actually really
happy with.
So they're using it to, andit's even why we use it in our
personal lives to make, to makeprocesses easier.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
So here's an example.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, so here's an.
I don't know if I've seen thisactually out there, but here's
an idea and there's anotherexample I could give on it with
sharing of intelligence withdifferent countries.
There's different rules forthat based on the country that
you are yeah right.
So what if there was a languagemodel that didn't look at
anything out there on on thenetworks and only looked at the
(32:08):
policy and doctrine that you putinto it, and then you had a
report that was, you know, notcensored?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
automation.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
That you could drop in there and say I want to share
this with Tonga, and you clickon it and the only language that
it could reference is thepolicy and the law.
Yeah, and then it'll come out onthe other end and you share it
that quick.
But that process before AI wasmonths.
Yeah, yeah, even in places thatwe worked, we actually had to
(32:38):
classify things, get us policyto change, to classify things
lower, to share it.
Yeah, yeah, but now with ai,you could use that in a
different way, to not bend therules.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
but make it more efficient.
What, what is?
What do you think?
Because here's my fear with aiand ml, um, and I'm I am trying
to be disciplined enough to notlet it happen to me, right, and
so I'm trying to be to alwayshave the mentality of, okay,
(33:10):
using AI at this point right nowis it's a start point and I
still have to do the next.
You know, 35% of work, or maybeit's the front end, right, and
AI is completing the work.
What do you think?
Like, where's the directionthat the military is going, dod
(33:31):
government of making sure thatpeople don't come become 100
dependent on it, because I thinkthat's where we fail when that
happens.
And it's a, it's a super.
I mean honestly, man, like alot of people like us, we fear
that the younger generations, Idon't think, fear that.
Um, what, what do you say aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
uh, two avenues.
I'd like to go down with that.
So, first off, in government,now we are appointing AI czars,
like we do to the border and toclimate change and all those
other things.
So it's people that look atthat and ensure that we use AI
to gain efficiency and not loseproficiency.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's a good way of looking at it.
Kia, can you do me a favor?
Can you write that down?
I like that.
I'm going to steal that fromhim.
Play it dry.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Another way that I look at it too, if I if I could
tell a little story here realquick.
So I have a friend in Hawaii.
That's a local guy, grew upthere, he's a.
He's a high school teacher, buthis background is in being a
librarian.
Right Came up that way in film,he studied film, and I have the
best conversations with himabout AI, because what we talk
about is gaining efficiency,right, and an example that him
(34:44):
and I talked about on a drunknight is what were you drinking?
Probably just some, some Mauibrewing beers or something.
Yeah, as long as it wasn'tbourbon, yeah, no no, no, no, no
, no, no, probably for him aseltzer, maybe for me, zima.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no,probably for him a seltzer.
Maybe Zima, no, no, no, no,good, seltzer, he's good, I'm
joking.
So, one of the things that wetalked about, and I don't think
(35:05):
in academia, that they shouldfear people using language
models for things, because inthe ancient days, if you wanted
to speak educated about a topic,you would have to take a seven
month journey to the library ofAlexandria, you'd have to go
through the scrolls, you'd haveto lead, read whatever language
(35:26):
that was that that put in there,right.
And then, if you fast forwardinto the future and this is the
example he gave me then they had, you know, radio and the
parents would say you know, whyare you listening to the radio
so much?
You should be reading morebooks, right.
And then the TV came out andthe next generation of parents
said why are you watching the TVso much?
You should listen to the radioVideo games, yep, yep.
(35:47):
So we should have figured thesethings they're just actually
making our consumption ofinformation.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Here's another example I'm going to throw to
you, because I feel like you'repretty passionate about this
stuff.
Is the calculator, dude, likethe texas instrument?
Yes, like, think about it, man.
Um, it's mathematical, so it'sdifferent, but in a way, ai,
used in the right way, ismathematical with algorithms and
this and the other.
(36:11):
A calculator is something thatwe have all became.
I am very dependent on acalculator.
Much of the world is, and thatis a.
It's not AI, but it issomething doing the work for you
, so you don't have to use thebrainpower and expend the
brainpower to do it because oneyou weren't educated on it,
(36:33):
whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
I think that's the lowest formand it's kind of a bad example
for depending on AI, but I bringthat up as an example of that's
something we we we us as humanbeings have basically put that
aside and haven't even thoughtabout things like that.
(36:53):
Like things that we've comeaccustomed to is like like Excel
, microsoft Excel.
Come accustomed to is like like, look, dude, calculate excel,
microsoft excel.
How much work does microsoftexcel now do for us through, um,
whatever calculations orwhatever formulas?
Like it's the same fuckingthing, but you didn't do it to,
(37:15):
uh, to cheat or anything.
You did it because it was moreefficient to do it.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
You and I actually used Microsoft Excel to find bad
guys.
Yes, we did.
Yes, we did.
A caveat that I'd like to throwin there is you were going down
an angle there that I like, andwhat we do need to show caution
and patience with, though, isidentifying AI hallucinations,
because AI doesn't like to admitthat it's wrong.
Yep, so, as that's why youcan't take the human out of it
(37:42):
and just completely trust it,you have to know where.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
you have to be able to identify the hallucinations
even like in today's models,whether you pay for um, your
subscription with open ai andchat g right or 4.0, you still
have to do your due diligenceand look up links that it gives
(38:05):
you, do a little bit of research, that you cannot 100% go out
the door on certain things.
Now, like you know, fulldisclosure to generate the
questions that I'm giving youtoday, I used AI, but that's, I
think that's a little bit thequestions that I'm giving you
today.
I used AI, but that's, I thinkthat's a little bit different
thing, because I'm not puttingfacts out, these questions that
(38:27):
it pops up, questions that Iprompted to say because I've
actually learned how to do a lotof the prompts and they are not
facts.
It's when you're getting intofacts you have to question it.
You there, absolutely the thehuman brain cannot be like, okay
, that's the fucking answer yeah, ai doesn't give you a license
(38:48):
to be a lazy idiot.
Nope, right, yeah, that's that'suh, that was the whole point of
that.
Second part of the question islike what, what are we doing in
our, our military or dod, wide Isee, to ensure that our people
do not have that mentality andwill never get that mentality?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
first off, you have to embrace it.
You can't fear the use of it,which I think a lot of uh
academic institutions have done.
You have to realize that itdoes make you gain efficiencies.
Right, you have to have policy,you have to have rules, you
(39:32):
have to have training.
You have to put that money backinto where they're not just
getting generated answers to,where they could look at that
and say, oh, I've been educatedenough to where I know that is a
wrong answer or hallucination.
You have to train them onprompts.
Right, with AI it's not a typesomething in and hit enter.
You have to understand how totalk to it to get what you want,
and that comes from trainingand education 100%, and I've got
(39:53):
more to talk about that as wego through this, but right now
let's take a break.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
My eyeballs are floating.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
You won't piss in your pants, right.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.