March 20, 2024 • 25 mins
Researcher and electronic musician Dr. Anthony Tan discusses innovation in music, the challenges of inclusivity meeting diversity, creating "alienating" music and more.
Featured music:
"And/Or" - for 14 musicians and electronics
"Ways of Returning" III. - for amplified string quartet and electronics
"On the Sensations of Tone II" - amplified octet and electronics
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to Notes of the North Talks, a series where we get to know our local
(00:12):
Canadian musical talent.
Today I'm here with Dr. Anthony Tan.
Thank you so much Anthony for joining me today.
Let's jump right in.
So Anthony, where are you joining us from today?
Where in Canada do you call home?
I am currently living in Victoria, British Columbia, where I'm a professor of composition
(00:34):
at the University of Victoria.
Awesome.
Is there any place else that holds a special place in your heart and that may have shaped
your work in some way?
I've had the fortune of living in a lot of different places as a composer.
I grew up in Calgary, so that's sort of my home base.
I did my first composition degree there and I lived for a while in Edmonton, had some
(01:00):
good times there.
But I spent 10 years living in Montréal, which was a really impactful time for my development.
And I lived for three years in Germany, two years in Dresden, one year in Berlin, which
was also a really important time for my development.
So it's hard to pinpoint one particular place, but all of these different places have helped
(01:24):
shape me.
My first position was in the United States.
I spent some time in Boston, or Cambridge, I should say, and then in Colorado Springs.
So every place is different.
Every place has its own artistic community and it's such a privilege to be confronted
with your own, one might say, kind of conditioning of how you might think about music.
(01:47):
And when you're put into a new environment, your biases are questioned all the time.
So all of these places have been important developments in my training.
Wonderful.
What first drew you into composition?
Is that how you first started or was it an instrument first?
(02:07):
There's a number of things.
I mean, I was a little kid, I remember trying to write little songs for things.
And I think I was like maybe 12 or 13 and I really got into musicals.
I was really into stuff like that as a kid.
So I would play a lot of Stephen Sondheim and stuff like that and try to write musicals.
(02:29):
And that was something that I was really interested in.
And then when I went to university, it wasn't for music, I went in for genetics.
I didn't do so well because I was more interested in going to nightclubs at the time and playing
techno music and DJing and stuff like that.
And so I really got into that world.
(02:52):
And it was from there that I realized that I really wanted to pursue music as a profession.
And I knew that I was interested in composition as a field of research.
And so right from the get go, I started my undergrad quite late.
I started at around 23.
I knew that I wanted to be a more concert composer, as they would say.
(03:15):
But I've had a lot of different kind of influences.
And I think primarily those are the earlier ones, if that makes sense.
For sure.
Well, what piece of yours would you recommend for a first time listener then, sort of as
an introduction to your work?
Off the top of my head, this piece called And Or, which is a piece for 18 musicians
(03:42):
and electronics.
It was written for the Turning Point Ensemble in Vancouver.
And it in many ways encapsulates the essence of how I think about music, the mixing of
acoustic and electronic worlds and the flow of time and form and kind of the affect of
(04:04):
it all is very much close to who I am.
So maybe that piece.
That's a perfect segue into my next point.
As someone who's engaged with both these acoustic and electronic sound worlds, how do you sort
of navigate this balance between tradition and I guess more innovation and the contemporary
(04:25):
world in your composition?
I think that, you know, speaking of the title And Or, you know, the idea behind that piece
was that we tend to think in these binaries, either or binaries.
But I'm very much interested in how things can be both at the same time, both part of
the tradition and innovative.
(04:47):
And I would say that the tradition, the Western classical tradition that we're speaking about
perhaps is by nature innovative, is by nature always progressing forward.
If you think about, let's say Franz Liszt is a good example, right?
And if it wasn't for his relationship with the, I believe it was Irdard, the piano manufacturer
(05:12):
who invented the double escapement mechanism, which allowed him to play these really fast
repeated notes, he wouldn't be able to write these transcendental etudes, you know?
Or you think about Bach playing the first piano and testing it out, you know, but even
though he primarily wrote for the harpsichord and clavichord and organ, or you think about
Mozart and the clarinets, you know, there's always, each generation is innovating, each
(05:36):
generation is pushing the field forward.
Every composer that we talk about, I would argue, was the contemporary innovator of the
day.
So I think it's important to recognize that.
And whenever people say to me, oh, new music, it's hard to listen to, I don't understand
it, it's too complex.
I would suggest looking at the reviews of Beethoven's late string quartets or his late
(06:02):
piano sonatas, people didn't understand it, it was completely noise to them.
And so, yeah, the field itself is always pushing forward, it's always been like that.
And so I've always looked at it that way.
That's definitely a fresh perspective for me too.
Oh really?
In your compositions, you often blend, let's say, traditional instrumental practices with
(06:26):
signal processing, sampling, and field recording.
Do you draw inspiration ever from Canadian environments or cultural heritages in shaping
these sonic textures?
Do I draw from Canadian kind of conceptions of identity and culture and things like that
(06:46):
and the environment, not explicitly.
I'm one of those people who feels that issues of identity, issues of culture, they're really,
really complex.
And it's very hard, I think, for me to say that this is about this aspect of my culture
or, I mean, what is Canadian identity anyways?
(07:10):
I don't really know what that is.
There's so many complex aspects of it.
So I've never been one to make my artistic output on my music be a representation of
that.
My work has often been more theoretical, analytical, technological in a way, philosophical, psychological.
(07:33):
I tend to think about music in those ways and less about explicit identity issues, if
that makes sense.
Because the things that you mentioned, the use of field recording, the use of signal
processing, that's more related to my interest in sound and timbre itself as a means of composing
(07:54):
and how do you expand the sonic palette of the instrumentations that we're using.
And that's really where it comes from.
And I'm always questioning the lines that are drawn in the sound, like what instruments
belong in the classical concert music genre.
(08:16):
And I think that that can always be pushed and I'm always pushing against that a little
bit.
And sometimes I will record the sound of, yes, the waves crashing on the on the BC coast,
but I might also record the sound of my refrigerator and try to use that in my music.
That makes sense.
(08:36):
Well, I guess musicians all try to convey a certain voice through their work, right?
Could you tell me if there is any specific piece or project role you felt particularly
challenged to express this artistic voice or personality in your work?
(08:57):
It's a very interesting question and it's definitely one that I confront a lot and it's
definitely one that I ask my students to think about a lot.
But if I were to reflect on it for myself, I think that it's going to be hard to articulate
this, but I think my music, my artistic practice is often psychological in nature in the sense
(09:24):
where I'm trying to dissolve myself, dissolve my sense of self away and go into the work
itself.
And so when I start a piece of music, I work on the material.
I'm just using my ears, I'm trusting my intuition and I don't want to necessarily express myself
(09:44):
at all.
It is something that is just revealed over time and as I work on the material and the
goal for me isn't necessarily to express myself, it's to allow that material, allow that kind
of conceptual idea to express itself and perhaps I'm like a vessel for it, it's like moving
(10:08):
through me, but I try to avoid putting my personality into it intentionally.
It probably comes out in some ways, like people tell me, oh, I can always tell that's your
music Anthony, right?
But I don't really know what that means or what that is.
I don't know if that answers your question.
That's a really interesting perspective to talk about identity as well.
(10:33):
On top of this personal identity, I guess your music explores the identity of sound
itself.
How do you conceptualize, as you said, the notion of sound identity then?
And how does this exploration affect your compositions?
I guess you touched a little bit on it.
So I think there's two things.
(10:54):
One, the genre that one is in.
So if one says, okay, what is the sound of hip hop?
What is the sound of it?
You can hear the beats, you can hear perhaps the scratch, you can hear perhaps the use
of vocal manipulation.
On a sound level, you can hear it.
(11:15):
And very similarly, if I tell you, okay, what is the sound of the genre of classical music?
You hear it in your head, the string quartet, the piano, the orchestra, right?
Why do we have those connections there?
And how can you smash those associations and kind of blur the boundaries that things have?
(11:38):
Do we have to follow those, I like to call them genre expectations?
I don't think you have to.
I think that a lot of great music comes from these hybrids that happen.
That's one part of sonic identity.
The other aspect I would say relates to the individual instruments themselves.
(11:58):
And this is something that is not my concept, it's the concept that I've taken from another
composer named Hammett Lachenmann who talks about these ideas of the sonic auras of things.
If you play the piano, when I hear the piano, I hear Beethoven sonatas, I hear all of the
cultural connotations of the piano.
(12:20):
If I hear a snare drum, I might think of military music, right?
And there are all of these like, kind of like contextual or cultural associations with sound.
And I think that for me, what's interesting is playing with those connotations a little
bit and subverting them and using instruments in a way that is not really conventional so
(12:45):
that it breaks, it confuses the listener in some ways as to why that sound is coming from
that instrument but it's not what I expect.
And that's a big part of, I think, my practice.
And also relates to why I use electronics because it helps me mask or change those identities.
Could you think of a sonic expectation that would be associated with Canada then?
(13:09):
With Canada?
I mean, of course there are the stereotypes, right, that one can speak about.
One says, oftentimes nature is a thing that is associated with Canadian music.
I mean, it's obvious we have such beautiful land here and nature is so inspiring.
So I think that that's something that people talk about.
(13:32):
But I mean, of course, if you go to, you know, metropolitan areas, it's not like all the
composers are writing, you know, environmental music.
But it's just, I don't think Canada has a one sound because Canada is such a diverse
country in terms of its artistic kind of roots, I would say, that it's coming from these different
(13:56):
things.
It's not just only from Europe, it's coming from Asia, it's coming from Africa, it's coming
from South America.
It's hard to pinpoint there for one sound because its roots are so diverse.
I don't think it has a sound.
I think perhaps maybe there's a time thing.
(14:17):
I've heard this before that Canadians tend to write 15 minute pieces.
I do, so maybe it's true.
Interesting.
All right.
Well, there's also the point of, as a researcher with interests in inclusive pedagogy, I know,
how do you think we can better amplify the voices of underrepresented composers and musicians
(14:42):
within the Canadian music scene?
There are so many local composers that are just kind of unheard of within our nation.
So how would you approach this?
That's a very difficult question.
It's very complex.
I mean, I can speak about it in terms of being a professor here at UVic.
(15:05):
We think about this a lot.
You have certain entrance requirements to get into a university program.
You need to have so many years of royal conservatory theory.
You need to be able to play a Western European instrument at this particular level to even
get in.
(15:26):
That's a privilege to learn that stuff.
It's an issue of class.
It's an issue of access.
So when we speak, how can we bring in more people into the school?
Well, how do we perhaps open that up and say, well, there are actually many different types
of theories.
There's many different types of being a musician.
(15:47):
There are other instruments besides the Western classical instrumentarium.
So how can we bring that stuff in?
It's an ecosystem.
So there's often challenges.
Well, OK, if you bring in an electric guitarist, well, what large ensemble are they going to
play in?
Can they play in the orchestra?
Well, there's no rep for that.
(16:08):
And there's so many issues related to that.
And so it's quite challenging, these discussions.
But I think in general, we have to loosen or open the conception of what we may define
as excellence, what we may define as music even, what we may define as how that music
(16:31):
is represented.
Does it have to be on a score or not?
What are the different types of instruments that one could use within an orchestra?
It's all connected.
And so that's one thing that I would say would help open things up a little bit.
(16:53):
The other side of it, and maybe it's just because I'm in an institution and I'm part
of the institution right now is just being on this other side of it.
I see how challenging it can be for institutions to change because of how these structures
are set up for particular reasons.
(17:15):
Sometimes I feel that, and I mentioned this to some students before, you can start your
own ensembles, you can start your own orchestras, you can do it yourself.
All of these orchestras and ensembles rely on government funding and donors.
You can do the same thing.
And you can make your own competitions.
(17:37):
You can do your own albums.
You don't have to rely always on being accepted into something that's already established,
which has its own baggage.
I don't know if that answers your question, but it's quite a difficult question to ask.
It's an important point to recognize that there are these structures that have been
(17:58):
put in place, but it's a matter of going beyond them almost.
How do you go beyond them?
Sometimes the rules that are put in place within those structures are in some ways pragmatic.
Just speaking as a teacher, and this is something that I deal with a lot, well, yes, I want
(18:19):
to open it up.
I want to have a lot of different types of musics, a lot of different musical experiences
into my studio.
But hey, I'm teaching a theory class and I have one person who has studied violins since
they were four and has done all the theory and another person who hasn't, maybe they
play something else, but they maybe do things more on the computer and they're in the same
(18:43):
class and I have to teach both of those students at the same time.
And it's challenging.
And that's from an educational perspective that helps.
But definitely in terms of orchestras and ensembles and the music that's out there and
the opportunities available to composers, I think there's more and more.
(19:07):
But of course, like any institution, there's limitations to how much they can do.
So that's why I suggest you can forge your own path and form your own ensemble and make
your voice be heard on your own terms.
Yeah, it's definitely good to recognize that we speak so much about the diversity that
we have here, which is incredible, but with diversity comes the challenge of creating
(19:32):
inclusivity.
It's a great thing.
Yeah, you're hitting the point exactly that it's great that we can speak about it, but
actually making those changes is quite difficult, I think, because there's so much diversity
to diversity and it's like, how do you balance it all?
(19:53):
And there's certain things that we have to work together on.
For sure.
Looking ahead, what do you hope to see for the future of Canadian music, both in terms
of artistic innovation and also kind of the cultural inclusivity and representation that
we talked about?
How would you see your own music evolving within this broader landscape?
I see it happening already, which is a good thing that I think many organizations are
(20:18):
trying is to be a bit more open to some of the things that we've been talking about,
which is being open to new ways of representing musical ideas, whether it's notation or through
graphic scores or through any other means of kind of communicating music.
(20:38):
It's being open to different ways of music in different types of instruments.
It's also, like I mentioned earlier, like pushing against the boundaries, the edges
of how we define or what we expect from certain genres or from certain forms or from certain
even concert going experiences.
It's to really break open those preconceived notions of how things should be run and be
(21:04):
open to what possibilities there could be.
It might mean failure, right?
And that's okay.
That's a big part of developing and growing is to try something new.
And even if it fails, we learn from it and move forward.
(21:24):
But I think that's a big part of where I see it going and where I hope my own work is heading
as well.
Do you notice any particular trends or movements that are happening in Canadian contemporary
music?
Yeah.
I mean, you see it in, you know, let's just take, for example, presenting organizations.
(21:48):
You see it in the Canadian League of Composers.
You see it in some university departments that these changes are happening, that it's
no longer just music or artists that are primarily classically trained.
(22:09):
It's become a lot more open and what we perceive as being Canadian contemporary composition,
right?
It can be a lot of different things.
And I think that's quite healthy.
And I think that's pretty important for us as a culture moving forward.
(22:29):
And you know, at the same time, to be inclusive means to be inclusive of Western classical
music.
That's what it also means.
And it's still important to have and to share and definitely composers of that training
will be part of that.
And I'm one of those composers, but I'm hopeful that organizations can open themselves up
(22:49):
a little bit more.
And I think it would be nice if certain organizations were more aesthetically adventurous as well.
And that's something that I often feel.
With our to offer a little bit of a criticism, sometimes I feel that it's a little bit not
(23:10):
so adventurous at times.
Like, it's always things that we've heard before, you know, but that's okay, too.
I don't mean to sound negative, but it's just, you know.
How do you ensure inclusivity within your own music?
Could you give an example of how you kind of ensure inclusivity within the listeners
(23:31):
or audience?
Like some people that might not be familiar with electronic music, how do you ensure that
your music can connect to them, too?
That's a very hard question.
I don't know if I've ever thought about it that way.
And I'm responding in this way because people have said my music is quite alienating.
(23:54):
So just speaking honestly here.
So and that's just something that I've been reflecting on lately because that maybe it's
not inclusive and maybe that's something that I have to think about.
Maybe I'm too self-indulgent with my practice and maybe it's all about just the material
(24:15):
and concept that I'm not really thinking about how people hear it.
And maybe that's part of it.
It's like I don't really know who that average listener is.
Like who is the average listener?
I don't know what that means.
How do you define that?
What does that person listen to?
Some of my students say, well, I want my grandmother to like this music or I want my hairdresser
(24:36):
to like this music, but I can't go there.
I'm not writing music for my grandmother or something, but maybe that's something that
I need to think about a little bit more.
Well, that's pretty much all that I have to discuss.
So I guess that's a wrap on today's episode.
(24:57):
So thank you so much, Anthony, for sharing such incredible pieces of your art.
Thanks for having me.
Until next time, folks, keep listening for the Notes of the North.
Hello and welcome back to Notes of the North Talks, a series where we get to know our local
(00:12):
Canadian musical talent.
Today I'm here with Dr. Anthony Tan.
Thank you so much Anthony for joining me today.
Let's jump right in.
So Anthony, where are you joining us from today?
Where in Canada do you call home?
I am currently living in Victoria, British Columbia, where I'm a professor of composition
(00:34):
at the University of Victoria.
Awesome.
Is there any place else that holds a special place in your heart and that may have shaped
your work in some way?
I've had the fortune of living in a lot of different places as a composer.
I grew up in Calgary, so that's sort of my home base.
I did my first composition degree there and I lived for a while in Edmonton, had some
(01:00):
good times there.
But I spent 10 years living in Montréal, which was a really impactful time for my development.
And I lived for three years in Germany, two years in Dresden, one year in Berlin, which
was also a really important time for my development.
So it's hard to pinpoint one particular place, but all of these different places have helped
(01:24):
shape me.
My first position was in the United States.
I spent some time in Boston, or Cambridge, I should say, and then in Colorado Springs.
So every place is different.
Every place has its own artistic community and it's such a privilege to be confronted
with your own, one might say, kind of conditioning of how you might think about music.
(01:47):
And when you're put into a new environment, your biases are questioned all the time.
So all of these places have been important developments in my training.
Wonderful.
What first drew you into composition?
Is that how you first started or was it an instrument first?
(02:07):
There's a number of things.
I mean, I was a little kid, I remember trying to write little songs for things.
And I think I was like maybe 12 or 13 and I really got into musicals.
I was really into stuff like that as a kid.
So I would play a lot of Stephen Sondheim and stuff like that and try to write musicals.
(02:29):
And that was something that I was really interested in.
And then when I went to university, it wasn't for music, I went in for genetics.
I didn't do so well because I was more interested in going to nightclubs at the time and playing
techno music and DJing and stuff like that.
And so I really got into that world.
(02:52):
And it was from there that I realized that I really wanted to pursue music as a profession.
And I knew that I was interested in composition as a field of research.
And so right from the get go, I started my undergrad quite late.
I started at around 23.
I knew that I wanted to be a more concert composer, as they would say.
(03:15):
But I've had a lot of different kind of influences.
And I think primarily those are the earlier ones, if that makes sense.
For sure.
Well, what piece of yours would you recommend for a first time listener then, sort of as
an introduction to your work?
Off the top of my head, this piece called And Or, which is a piece for 18 musicians
(03:42):
and electronics.
It was written for the Turning Point Ensemble in Vancouver.
And it in many ways encapsulates the essence of how I think about music, the mixing of
acoustic and electronic worlds and the flow of time and form and kind of the affect of
(04:04):
it all is very much close to who I am.
So maybe that piece.
That's a perfect segue into my next point.
As someone who's engaged with both these acoustic and electronic sound worlds, how do you sort
of navigate this balance between tradition and I guess more innovation and the contemporary
(04:25):
world in your composition?
I think that, you know, speaking of the title And Or, you know, the idea behind that piece
was that we tend to think in these binaries, either or binaries.
But I'm very much interested in how things can be both at the same time, both part of
the tradition and innovative.
(04:47):
And I would say that the tradition, the Western classical tradition that we're speaking about
perhaps is by nature innovative, is by nature always progressing forward.
If you think about, let's say Franz Liszt is a good example, right?
And if it wasn't for his relationship with the, I believe it was Irdard, the piano manufacturer
(05:12):
who invented the double escapement mechanism, which allowed him to play these really fast
repeated notes, he wouldn't be able to write these transcendental etudes, you know?
Or you think about Bach playing the first piano and testing it out, you know, but even
though he primarily wrote for the harpsichord and clavichord and organ, or you think about
Mozart and the clarinets, you know, there's always, each generation is innovating, each
(05:36):
generation is pushing the field forward.
Every composer that we talk about, I would argue, was the contemporary innovator of the
day.
So I think it's important to recognize that.
And whenever people say to me, oh, new music, it's hard to listen to, I don't understand
it, it's too complex.
I would suggest looking at the reviews of Beethoven's late string quartets or his late
(06:02):
piano sonatas, people didn't understand it, it was completely noise to them.
And so, yeah, the field itself is always pushing forward, it's always been like that.
And so I've always looked at it that way.
That's definitely a fresh perspective for me too.
Oh really?
In your compositions, you often blend, let's say, traditional instrumental practices with
(06:26):
signal processing, sampling, and field recording.
Do you draw inspiration ever from Canadian environments or cultural heritages in shaping
these sonic textures?
Do I draw from Canadian kind of conceptions of identity and culture and things like that
(06:46):
and the environment, not explicitly.
I'm one of those people who feels that issues of identity, issues of culture, they're really,
really complex.
And it's very hard, I think, for me to say that this is about this aspect of my culture
or, I mean, what is Canadian identity anyways?
(07:10):
I don't really know what that is.
There's so many complex aspects of it.
So I've never been one to make my artistic output on my music be a representation of
that.
My work has often been more theoretical, analytical, technological in a way, philosophical, psychological.
(07:33):
I tend to think about music in those ways and less about explicit identity issues, if
that makes sense.
Because the things that you mentioned, the use of field recording, the use of signal
processing, that's more related to my interest in sound and timbre itself as a means of composing
(07:54):
and how do you expand the sonic palette of the instrumentations that we're using.
And that's really where it comes from.
And I'm always questioning the lines that are drawn in the sound, like what instruments
belong in the classical concert music genre.
(08:16):
And I think that that can always be pushed and I'm always pushing against that a little
bit.
And sometimes I will record the sound of, yes, the waves crashing on the on the BC coast,
but I might also record the sound of my refrigerator and try to use that in my music.
That makes sense.
(08:36):
Well, I guess musicians all try to convey a certain voice through their work, right?
Could you tell me if there is any specific piece or project role you felt particularly
challenged to express this artistic voice or personality in your work?
(08:57):
It's a very interesting question and it's definitely one that I confront a lot and it's
definitely one that I ask my students to think about a lot.
But if I were to reflect on it for myself, I think that it's going to be hard to articulate
this, but I think my music, my artistic practice is often psychological in nature in the sense
(09:24):
where I'm trying to dissolve myself, dissolve my sense of self away and go into the work
itself.
And so when I start a piece of music, I work on the material.
I'm just using my ears, I'm trusting my intuition and I don't want to necessarily express myself
(09:44):
at all.
It is something that is just revealed over time and as I work on the material and the
goal for me isn't necessarily to express myself, it's to allow that material, allow that kind
of conceptual idea to express itself and perhaps I'm like a vessel for it, it's like moving
(10:08):
through me, but I try to avoid putting my personality into it intentionally.
It probably comes out in some ways, like people tell me, oh, I can always tell that's your
music Anthony, right?
But I don't really know what that means or what that is.
I don't know if that answers your question.
That's a really interesting perspective to talk about identity as well.
(10:33):
On top of this personal identity, I guess your music explores the identity of sound
itself.
How do you conceptualize, as you said, the notion of sound identity then?
And how does this exploration affect your compositions?
I guess you touched a little bit on it.
So I think there's two things.
(10:54):
One, the genre that one is in.
So if one says, okay, what is the sound of hip hop?
What is the sound of it?
You can hear the beats, you can hear perhaps the scratch, you can hear perhaps the use
of vocal manipulation.
On a sound level, you can hear it.
(11:15):
And very similarly, if I tell you, okay, what is the sound of the genre of classical music?
You hear it in your head, the string quartet, the piano, the orchestra, right?
Why do we have those connections there?
And how can you smash those associations and kind of blur the boundaries that things have?
(11:38):
Do we have to follow those, I like to call them genre expectations?
I don't think you have to.
I think that a lot of great music comes from these hybrids that happen.
That's one part of sonic identity.
The other aspect I would say relates to the individual instruments themselves.
(11:58):
And this is something that is not my concept, it's the concept that I've taken from another
composer named Hammett Lachenmann who talks about these ideas of the sonic auras of things.
If you play the piano, when I hear the piano, I hear Beethoven sonatas, I hear all of the
cultural connotations of the piano.
(12:20):
If I hear a snare drum, I might think of military music, right?
And there are all of these like, kind of like contextual or cultural associations with sound.
And I think that for me, what's interesting is playing with those connotations a little
bit and subverting them and using instruments in a way that is not really conventional so
(12:45):
that it breaks, it confuses the listener in some ways as to why that sound is coming from
that instrument but it's not what I expect.
And that's a big part of, I think, my practice.
And also relates to why I use electronics because it helps me mask or change those identities.
Could you think of a sonic expectation that would be associated with Canada then?
(13:09):
With Canada?
I mean, of course there are the stereotypes, right, that one can speak about.
One says, oftentimes nature is a thing that is associated with Canadian music.
I mean, it's obvious we have such beautiful land here and nature is so inspiring.
So I think that that's something that people talk about.
(13:32):
But I mean, of course, if you go to, you know, metropolitan areas, it's not like all the
composers are writing, you know, environmental music.
But it's just, I don't think Canada has a one sound because Canada is such a diverse
country in terms of its artistic kind of roots, I would say, that it's coming from these different
(13:56):
things.
It's not just only from Europe, it's coming from Asia, it's coming from Africa, it's coming
from South America.
It's hard to pinpoint there for one sound because its roots are so diverse.
I don't think it has a sound.
I think perhaps maybe there's a time thing.
(14:17):
I've heard this before that Canadians tend to write 15 minute pieces.
I do, so maybe it's true.
Interesting.
All right.
Well, there's also the point of, as a researcher with interests in inclusive pedagogy, I know,
how do you think we can better amplify the voices of underrepresented composers and musicians
(14:42):
within the Canadian music scene?
There are so many local composers that are just kind of unheard of within our nation.
So how would you approach this?
That's a very difficult question.
It's very complex.
I mean, I can speak about it in terms of being a professor here at UVic.
(15:05):
We think about this a lot.
You have certain entrance requirements to get into a university program.
You need to have so many years of royal conservatory theory.
You need to be able to play a Western European instrument at this particular level to even
get in.
(15:26):
That's a privilege to learn that stuff.
It's an issue of class.
It's an issue of access.
So when we speak, how can we bring in more people into the school?
Well, how do we perhaps open that up and say, well, there are actually many different types
of theories.
There's many different types of being a musician.
(15:47):
There are other instruments besides the Western classical instrumentarium.
So how can we bring that stuff in?
It's an ecosystem.
So there's often challenges.
Well, OK, if you bring in an electric guitarist, well, what large ensemble are they going to
play in?
Can they play in the orchestra?
Well, there's no rep for that.
(16:08):
And there's so many issues related to that.
And so it's quite challenging, these discussions.
But I think in general, we have to loosen or open the conception of what we may define
as excellence, what we may define as music even, what we may define as how that music
(16:31):
is represented.
Does it have to be on a score or not?
What are the different types of instruments that one could use within an orchestra?
It's all connected.
And so that's one thing that I would say would help open things up a little bit.
(16:53):
The other side of it, and maybe it's just because I'm in an institution and I'm part
of the institution right now is just being on this other side of it.
I see how challenging it can be for institutions to change because of how these structures
are set up for particular reasons.
(17:15):
Sometimes I feel that, and I mentioned this to some students before, you can start your
own ensembles, you can start your own orchestras, you can do it yourself.
All of these orchestras and ensembles rely on government funding and donors.
You can do the same thing.
And you can make your own competitions.
(17:37):
You can do your own albums.
You don't have to rely always on being accepted into something that's already established,
which has its own baggage.
I don't know if that answers your question, but it's quite a difficult question to ask.
It's an important point to recognize that there are these structures that have been
(17:58):
put in place, but it's a matter of going beyond them almost.
How do you go beyond them?
Sometimes the rules that are put in place within those structures are in some ways pragmatic.
Just speaking as a teacher, and this is something that I deal with a lot, well, yes, I want
(18:19):
to open it up.
I want to have a lot of different types of musics, a lot of different musical experiences
into my studio.
But hey, I'm teaching a theory class and I have one person who has studied violins since
they were four and has done all the theory and another person who hasn't, maybe they
play something else, but they maybe do things more on the computer and they're in the same
(18:43):
class and I have to teach both of those students at the same time.
And it's challenging.
And that's from an educational perspective that helps.
But definitely in terms of orchestras and ensembles and the music that's out there and
the opportunities available to composers, I think there's more and more.
(19:07):
But of course, like any institution, there's limitations to how much they can do.
So that's why I suggest you can forge your own path and form your own ensemble and make
your voice be heard on your own terms.
Yeah, it's definitely good to recognize that we speak so much about the diversity that
we have here, which is incredible, but with diversity comes the challenge of creating
(19:32):
inclusivity.
It's a great thing.
Yeah, you're hitting the point exactly that it's great that we can speak about it, but
actually making those changes is quite difficult, I think, because there's so much diversity
to diversity and it's like, how do you balance it all?
(19:53):
And there's certain things that we have to work together on.
For sure.
Looking ahead, what do you hope to see for the future of Canadian music, both in terms
of artistic innovation and also kind of the cultural inclusivity and representation that
we talked about?
How would you see your own music evolving within this broader landscape?
I see it happening already, which is a good thing that I think many organizations are
(20:18):
trying is to be a bit more open to some of the things that we've been talking about,
which is being open to new ways of representing musical ideas, whether it's notation or through
graphic scores or through any other means of kind of communicating music.
(20:38):
It's being open to different ways of music in different types of instruments.
It's also, like I mentioned earlier, like pushing against the boundaries, the edges
of how we define or what we expect from certain genres or from certain forms or from certain
even concert going experiences.
It's to really break open those preconceived notions of how things should be run and be
(21:04):
open to what possibilities there could be.
It might mean failure, right?
And that's okay.
That's a big part of developing and growing is to try something new.
And even if it fails, we learn from it and move forward.
(21:24):
But I think that's a big part of where I see it going and where I hope my own work is heading
as well.
Do you notice any particular trends or movements that are happening in Canadian contemporary
music?
Yeah.
I mean, you see it in, you know, let's just take, for example, presenting organizations.
(21:48):
You see it in the Canadian League of Composers.
You see it in some university departments that these changes are happening, that it's
no longer just music or artists that are primarily classically trained.
(22:09):
It's become a lot more open and what we perceive as being Canadian contemporary composition,
right?
It can be a lot of different things.
And I think that's quite healthy.
And I think that's pretty important for us as a culture moving forward.
(22:29):
And you know, at the same time, to be inclusive means to be inclusive of Western classical
music.
That's what it also means.
And it's still important to have and to share and definitely composers of that training
will be part of that.
And I'm one of those composers, but I'm hopeful that organizations can open themselves up
(22:49):
a little bit more.
And I think it would be nice if certain organizations were more aesthetically adventurous as well.
And that's something that I often feel.
With our to offer a little bit of a criticism, sometimes I feel that it's a little bit not
(23:10):
so adventurous at times.
Like, it's always things that we've heard before, you know, but that's okay, too.
I don't mean to sound negative, but it's just, you know.
How do you ensure inclusivity within your own music?
Could you give an example of how you kind of ensure inclusivity within the listeners
(23:31):
or audience?
Like some people that might not be familiar with electronic music, how do you ensure that
your music can connect to them, too?
That's a very hard question.
I don't know if I've ever thought about it that way.
And I'm responding in this way because people have said my music is quite alienating.
(23:54):
So just speaking honestly here.
So and that's just something that I've been reflecting on lately because that maybe it's
not inclusive and maybe that's something that I have to think about.
Maybe I'm too self-indulgent with my practice and maybe it's all about just the material
(24:15):
and concept that I'm not really thinking about how people hear it.
And maybe that's part of it.
It's like I don't really know who that average listener is.
Like who is the average listener?
I don't know what that means.
How do you define that?
What does that person listen to?
Some of my students say, well, I want my grandmother to like this music or I want my hairdresser
(24:36):
to like this music, but I can't go there.
I'm not writing music for my grandmother or something, but maybe that's something that
I need to think about a little bit more.
Well, that's pretty much all that I have to discuss.
So I guess that's a wrap on today's episode.
(24:57):
So thank you so much, Anthony, for sharing such incredible pieces of your art.
Thanks for having me.
Until next time, folks, keep listening for the Notes of the North.
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