November 16, 2024 • 21 mins
Composer and educator Roydon Tse talks musical and conceptual balance between Eastern and Western, the intersection of traditional and contemporary, and much more!
Featured works:
- Radiant Light
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello and welcome back to Notes of the North Talks, a series where we get to know our local
(00:12):
Canadian musical talent.
Today I'm here with Roydon Tse. Thank you so much, Roydon, for joining me today.
Thank you, Brianna, for having me.
First things first, Roydon, where are you joining us from today?
Where in Canada do you call home?
I'm joining you online on this podcast from Calgary, where I currently call home.
(00:32):
But I've called multiple places in Canada home.
I've lived in Vancouver, I've lived in Toronto, and before that I was born in Hong Kong and
studied in the UK for a bit too.
Awesome.
So let's get a little into your musical background.
So you studied piano and violin performance for many years.
So how did you get into composition?
Was it simultaneous to your instrumental studies or separate?
(00:55):
Definitely, I would say so.
Every good Asian child, I started piano.
But I enjoyed it.
And I wouldn't say this is the same story for every person who starts piano.
And I really enjoyed it.
I would just practice all late into the night.
And then one day I would just, I think I remember walking down a street near my home in Hong
Kong and I just was listening, I heard some kind of music in my head, like some kind of
(01:17):
Bach remote.
So I wasn't sure.
I was just like, ah, dah, dah, dah, dah, like humming to myself.
And I thought, well, okay, like if I can hear music like that, maybe I could write it down
one day.
So that was kind of the first like spark of composing that popped into my head.
But I didn't really take it seriously.
And then fast forward a couple of years, I was in boarding school actually in England.
And it was there where I started to dabble in Sibelius using kind of notation software
(01:40):
to just jot down my notes and thoughts and then play it back, which is super informative
and helpful.
So that helped me like hear back.
Oh, was I doing something right?
Or that sound terrible?
It usually was terrible.
So I would just kind of keep going with that.
And then that led into kind of an encounter in Canada with great composer mentor, his
name is John Nastasio.
He lives in Edmonton and was the Edmonton Symphony's composer in residence.
(02:03):
And through him, I was able to have the opportunity to write for an orchestra.
And that listening to that result, to that piece that I first wrote for orchestra, cemented
my kind of like desire to say, hey, let's take composing more seriously.
Awesome.
What was that experience like hearing your work performed by a large ensemble for the
first time?
Well, yeah, like it's a it's pretty I don't know, it's they were very good ensemble for
(02:25):
sure.
And I was taken aback and very impressed by what they did.
And I thought from now on, I'm going to just write for orchestra because every other experience
would be like this, right?
Wrong.
You know, because you get orchestras that are great, you get orchestras that might not
be like as prepared as a professional orchestra.
So there was a lot of learning, but that first experience was like, wow, you know, it opened
my eyes in a great way.
(02:46):
Awesome.
Shifting gears here a little bit.
In your opinion, what are some defining characteristics of contemporary Canadian music?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think, well, there's definitely such a multiculturalness about Canadian music.
And you know, you probably you've spoken to many of these composers for your podcast,
listen to Brianna's podcast, everyone, if you haven't.
(03:09):
But you know, there's just such a diversity composers coming from all corners of the earth
to make Canada their home, which brings a lot of flavor to it, you know, and there's
really no one way of defining it.
And certainly, I think Canada has seen it's kind of there's this kind of mid century
period in Canada where things are very much like, let's be like Europe and be like post
tonal, you know, bulez, da da da.
(03:30):
And there was that kind of niche of contemporary music.
But I think nowadays, it's in a much kind of healthier place where everything's been
opened up.
There's less kind of dogma of like, you should compose in a certain style, which is great.
And there's no right or wrong way about doing music.
There's just kind of what feels right to you, I think.
So everyone's kind of doing their thing.
And it's very diverse in that way.
(03:51):
Beautiful.
There's definitely something unique about different cultures coming together in Canadian
music.
So you personally studied music both in the UK and Canada, and you're also from Hong Kong.
So how did these different musical environments shape your style and approach to composition?
I would say, you know, being brought up in Hong Kong was a very interesting experience
(04:11):
because it's sort of a already a mix of East and West, you know, it was a British colony
until 1997, but also part of China, you know, as part of the Chinese mainland.
So there was this kind of Britishness to it.
And like, there was this, people spoke English, you know, we got taught English in schools.
And then there was also the Chinese kind of background of culture.
People were Chinese there mostly.
(04:32):
And so growing up there, I was able to see both sides and see the benefits of both sides.
Although I think at that time in the 90s, it was very much like very pro-Western.
People were like, yay, yay, the West.
And then it kind of shifted a little bit more.
And then it shifted back because of recent events and everything.
But in Hong Kong, that was, I think, the case.
And it kind of, I think, built in my mind that it's possible to kind of go either way,
(04:54):
you know, it's fine.
I'm a Chinese person, but I also can think kind of thoughts that were like outside of
that bubble and try to kind of explore what identity means outside of China and in the
West and so forth.
And then fast forward to maybe a couple of years later, in the early 2000s, I went to
boarding school in England.
And that was also a very formative experience.
I went to a small town called Eastbourne.
(05:17):
That was where Debussy finished La Mer, his symphonic work.
And I was like, I didn't know that at the point.
I was just like, hey, I'm at school, you know, I wasn't really into like that much music.
But that experience was very, it was like very standard Western.
I don't know how to say it.
It was just like you're in a British boarding school, you would do all the things that British
kids did and you learn English and go to sports and stuff.
(05:39):
And we did music and the music was very much Western.
There wasn't much Chinese music or international music at that time, I think.
And so I was like, okay, yeah, this is the music that I loved anyways.
I loved Mozart, Beethoven, you know, all those composers.
And so that was a great kind of foundation that led me to explore more about how to put
this all together in a compositional kind of way.
And then Canada was like another like open eyes moment because I thought my two, my two
(06:04):
kind of experiences in the world were Hong Kong and England at that time.
And going to Canada was like, wow, this place is so big and like there's so much possibility
here.
That was kind of my first thought, you know, like it's a big place, but there are as many
people and you can kind of, you have that freedom to do what you want.
And which is contrasting to, I think, some of the mentality in England where people were
like, hey, we did this for like a thousand years, you know, why are you trying to change
(06:26):
this?
Or like, this is the kind of trend here.
But Canada is a relatively young country in comparison.
And so there's this kind of feeling of possibility of like, you can really make your mark here
as a person as and as an artist.
So it was also in Canada that I started seriously thinking about studying music and studying
music here.
So Canada, I think, made the most impact for me as a composer and just kind of helped me
(06:49):
see what the world could be as through composition, really.
Awesome.
Well, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but I want to go deeper into this fusion of
Eastern and Western.
How do you blend that inside your music?
And could you give an example?
Yeah, yeah.
And it's a thought that I kind of, maybe 10 or 12 years ago, I started thinking about
(07:10):
because I had this kind of very Western upbringing.
I had this idea that I would write symphonies and like sonatas and string quartets.
I'm like, that's the form I aspire to.
And then when I started going to composition and meeting other composers, I started to
think, well, there are these composers, these great Canadian composers who are like from
all these parts of the world and they're doing this great thing of their cultural identity.
What about my kind of identity too?
(07:31):
And then started asking that question.
But when thinking about fusion of East and West, I always thought that it wasn't something
that I had to do, right?
Just because I look like a Chinese composer doesn't mean I have to incorporate Chinese
works.
So I feel like it had to come from somewhere kind of authentically, first of all.
And if you look at some of my pieces, like some of them, yes, have been inspired by say
Chinese poetry, Chinese texts or Chinese instruments.
(07:54):
But then there's also a lot that are very purely just like, this is a string quartet.
That's it.
Or there's like a concept behind it.
So for me, I like to try to keep it fresh and try to keep it like authentic.
What does this piece need first?
And then I can say whether or not I need to bring in say my background, in my cultural
background or think about exploring other kinds of musical influences.
(08:17):
But I always think about the fusion of Chinese instruments and the East and West is a very
broad concept, not necessarily related to just instruments or texts or themes, but more
broadly like the Chinese way of thinking or the Chinese mentality, the psyche and also
the Western psyche and how that kind of can collide but also meld somehow.
So I like to start from that because that I think creates something more unique because
(08:41):
there's so many great works out there that blend non-Western instruments, for example,
with Western instruments.
And so my goal is not to replicate that as a composer, but my goal is to think about
deeply like, what is the real connection between East and West?
And do we need to even say this is a fusion of East and West?
Or can we just be like, this is a piece?
And then you kind of, what I want the listener to kind of get is kind of feel the Eastern
(09:05):
energy and also the Western energy somehow without making it so explicit in a way.
It's definitely really interesting.
Is there like a specific piece where this connection or like psychological connection
at least is evident?
I feel like my first big piece for orchestra and sheng, the Radiant Light Concerto was
probably the piece I put the most thought in about like, how should fusion happen in
(09:31):
a deep and kind of like personal way, right?
Because so that concerto for sheng, for those who don't know, it's a piece that incorporated
this folk song.
And this folk song, I took the first five notes of the folk song and treated it in three
different sections.
One was about like the rising of the sun and then the second section was about the midday
and then the third section was about the setting of the sun.
(09:53):
So there's this kind of arc to this composition.
And so I wanted to think about the piece, first of all, from this narrative point, like
can I create this narrative that people can understand first?
And then the folk song kind of makes its appearance in kind of fragments throughout this kind
of piece.
So people can, if they know the folk song, can kind of pick bits and pieces out.
But it's really not, it's not supposed to be a rehashing or a rearrangement of the folk
(10:15):
song per se.
It's more kind of a deeper treatment of saying going deeper into the folk song and then taking
that material that is already so familiar for some audiences and then transforming it
into this larger sound kind of palette.
That is, I think what Western music can do really well, what composers have done historically
is that they can take simple material and then like expand it into these big, big forms,
(10:37):
right?
So I wanted to kind of try that with this kind of quintessential Chinese material and
then try to like work with that and then also throw in a sheng, which was the first time
I've ever done that thing for, first, like I've never played with a sheng.
And then I consulted a person who knew how to play sheng in Toronto and he gave me some
really important like advice and tips on how to write for sheng.
And that became the sheng concerto with an orchestra.
(11:00):
So that whole process, I mean, I'm simplifying here, but it really led me to think deeply
about what that fusion could mean on a personal level without having to say, kind of appeal
to tropes or like bring in certain influences that are very obviously, say, Chinese.
Another thing we have to balance in music nowadays is contemporary influences with kind
(11:23):
of traditional forms and structures.
And I know you have a piece called Unrelenting Sorrow that was noted for late romantic directions.
How do you balance these contemporary influences with the traditional forms?
Yeah, that's also another great question because nowadays as composers, we have such a rich
possibility of technique.
(11:44):
You know, we've got all the innovations that have happened in the last hundred years, extended
techniques.
We've also got electronics, you know, the ways to generate and manipulate sound live
or like pre-recorded ways.
So there's just like the Pandora box has been open.
We really can't put everything back in.
And as composers, I think it's our job to kind of consider all that, like what can we
do with these tools instead of saying, I'm just going to stick to this one path and do
(12:07):
what I can do.
So I think that's what excites me as a composer, just like looking at all these tools and think,
how can I try to find this kind of way to incorporate that within a logical musical
statement that hopefully people can understand and can kind of retain in their mind.
And so speaking of Unrelenting Sorrow, I think that was a piece that I wrote during the pandemic.
It was a commission from the Toronto Symphony.
(12:29):
And it was, yeah, like it was a sad piece as the title kind of suggests.
Like it's not light entertainment.
It's just this kind of heavy or castral music.
But within it, like I wanted to, I started with this idea of creating, how do I evoke
the feeling of layered sorrow?
Right?
Like I imagine all the people that experience loss during this troubling time, obviously,
(12:53):
how do I kind of bring that all into a symphonic piece, a piece where it could involve a hundred
people on stage?
That's sort of this metaphor for community and society in general.
And so I thought about layering these lines, these ascending lines, kind of like a river.
You see these kind of crests that kind of go over each other.
And that's kind of the idea that I got for Unrelenting Sorrow.
(13:13):
So this melodic line just kind of goes above and above each other and the crescendos to
a couple of points in the piece.
And then during this kind of crescendo too, I added different percussive kind of techniques.
Like I used the guiro to indicate this kind of abrasiveness to it.
I asked the horns to play a quarter flat at points to just kind of offset the sense that
(13:35):
we are in a normal kind of symphonic setting or like everything's in one key.
So I've just used some of those elements to offset the listener's expectation as well.
So you know, and at the end of the day, I think these techniques and you know, we're
talking about electronic manipulation of sound, etc.
I think all of this has to be done in context of what you're trying to achieve as a composer.
(13:57):
And I always think about that, like what I want to say and how do these things kind of
come into my universe and help me say those things.
And if they're not important, then there's no reason why I shouldn't, you know, I should
include them in this kind of universe and sound world I'm trying to create.
So I think it's a very personal process.
And probably if you ask other composers, they will have very different answers.
So I do believe that, yeah, like they play such an important role and it's great to incorporate
(14:21):
them in some way, but within a clear vision of what you want to achieve.
Yeah, definitely.
We have such a wide array of options now to choose from and explore.
And I think you blend traditional and contemporary very nicely.
And so you are also an educator now.
So how do you approach teaching composition and what key lessons do you aim to convey
(14:44):
when you teach?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I guess, yeah, I've been an educator for how long?
I mean, probably like 10 years.
So I am still an educator and I still consider education being this super important part
of what I do because I think I just have this, I don't know, I like communicating and connecting
with people and composing being such a solitary event.
(15:05):
It's always nice to have this other side of like, I go out and I work with younger people
or even older people to just like communicate and show them what music can do.
And I think because I'm inspired every day by the composers I listen to and I try to
do some of that in my own music.
And I feel it just it naturally comes to me as like, I need to somehow tell other people
about what we're doing because the composer community, as you know, it's a small one in
(15:29):
the broad kind of landscape of music.
You've got contemporary composers and you've got like maybe film composers and you've got
like Billie Eilish, right?
And you've got like, you know, everything else that's out there.
And we're just this kind of tiny microcosm.
It's interesting because I got into the community and sometimes I talk about like what I do
as a composer and they're like, oh, you know, there's a living composer, you know, like,
(15:50):
what's that?
You know, I thought they're all all dead and like they're like Beethoven and Mozart.
Like, no, actually, we're alive.
We're still composing, but just in different ways.
So right now I'm teaching at the University of Calgary doing some composition teaching
and what I try to instill in them is the idea of how everything should come from this artistic
vision, you know, and I've touched on this before where I said, like, you know, there's
(16:13):
just so much possibility.
There's so many tools available.
Like, how do you first of all, like, assimilate all of that?
And then secondly, how do you innovate from that?
How do you draw from that rich resource and bring it and turn it into something your own?
Right.
So it has to come from this kind of knowledge, I think, of what you want to say.
And I try to work with my students in different ways on how to get that, because you can say
(16:34):
that like, say what you want to say, but it's like, whoa, what do you do?
Like it's such an abstract concept and a lot of, you know, as you know, music and composition
can be so abstract.
And so for me, I want to try to de-abstractify it.
And that's not a word, but I just made it up.
First year on Brianna's podcast, guys.
But the de-abstract, like all this kind of thing, they're going to say, okay, this is
(16:55):
an you might have an idea.
Maybe it's like a sound, maybe it's an image or narrative.
Let's try to condense it into a timeline of sorts, or let's try to condense it into a
couple of words that resonate with you as a person.
And then from those kind of materials, maybe like very, very sparse, maybe it's a chord,
maybe it's a melody, right?
Whatever it might be, let's condense it.
And then let's see, we can extrapolate that into the future, like for five minutes, 10
(17:18):
minutes or an hour, right?
And see what happens when you do that.
And then from there you think, okay, I've got this idea.
Let's think about technique.
And always technique comes after I feel that kind of hashing out a vision, hashing out
of what you want to say.
And then we can start having those more detailed conversations like counterpoint, harmony,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So that's what I hope to instill.
(17:39):
I don't know if it's successful.
We'll see at the end of the day with the teaching reviews, blah, blah, blah.
Awesome.
What do you enjoy most about being a composer?
And then what do you enjoy most about being an educator?
There are these two different roles that you have.
Yeah, oh, that's a great question.
I mean, I think with being a composer, it's always like listening to your piece, you know,
(18:01):
being able to go to that performance and say, well, like this is what I worked on for a
year and now I can finally hear the professional orchestra or great soloist play it.
That's always very rewarding.
But more and more, I also find that like I really value the artistic process, the journey
of getting to that final product, because maybe it's due to age because I've done this
(18:21):
for a while too.
So I'm like, yeah, I've heard the premieres, I've heard the great orchestras, but I always
feel like the journey is always different.
The hardest thing about being a composer, I think, is starting with that blank page
and going, what do I do?
And then from there, you take that first step, then the second step usually comes and then
the third step and so forth.
But it's always hard in that first kind of blank slate kind of starting point.
(18:43):
So I think overcoming that challenge in different ways each time is also a very satisfying thing
for a composer.
Being like, oh, I found this kind of creative solution.
I've written another orchestral piece that's different from that previous orchestral piece
that I did, like, yay, let's celebrate.
So that's also very rewarding, so that process from nothing to something is always different.
(19:06):
About being an educator, I think the rewarding thing is seeing students click, like, oh,
they understand something.
Like, oh, yeah, this is so cool.
I'm glad you showed me this.
I play a lot of excerpts in my classes where I go, oh, this is a composer that you should
know about in relation to, say, harmony or counterpoint.
And I ask the class every time, I'm like, has anyone heard of so-and-so composer?
(19:27):
And no one puts their hand out.
I'm like, great, this is your first time hearing this composer.
And so that's also a very rewarding thing because you remember your first time, remember
your first time hearing a great piece of music and how that experience kind of sticks in
your mind.
So I think being that person for maybe a class of students where I can introduce a great
piece of music, it's like, wow, I can be that for them.
(19:48):
And also being able to guide them in a way that helps them and encourages them in their
journey.
So that's what a great teacher can do in composition or in any kind of format where
creativity is involved.
It's not about establishing what is right or wrong, unlike certain fields where you
do need to know what's right or wrong.
Like mathematics, OK, there's a right or wrong to that.
(20:10):
You've got to enforce that very clearly.
Engineering, OK, lives are going to be lost.
Let's enforce right or wrong, right, clearly.
But in music and art, there's no right or wrong answer.
Just kind of what's stronger for you as a person.
So being that encouraging voice, I think, is so important, but also very rewarding for
me to be like, hey, maybe I can help you with this and speak to this problem that you're
(20:31):
having and try to help move that.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
To wrap things up here, are there any exciting upcoming projects we should look forward to?
Yeah, I guess so.
Say this very like unconvincingly.
But I said today, actually, as we're doing this podcast, maybe a couple of hours ago,
the Philadelphia Orchestra just did a piece of mine in Beijing, which I can't go to because
(20:54):
it was like they only announced the very last minute, but they did a piece called Yellow
Crane Tower with singers, a baritone and tenor soloist and orchestra.
So that was very exciting.
So unfortunately, I can't be there for that.
But in the future, I have a commission for a concerto for string quartet and orchestra
happening in Maryland with the Annapolis Symphony and then a premiere of a long, like an older
(21:15):
work called Stepwise inspired by jazz with the Esprit Orchestra in Toronto.
So that's happening in 2025.
So those are the main things going on for me right now.
Amazing.
Well, that brings us to the end of today's episode.
Thank you so much, Royden, for sharing such beautiful pieces of your art and heart.
(21:35):
Until next time, folks, keep listening for the notes of the North.
Hello and welcome back to Notes of the North Talks, a series where we get to know our local
(00:12):
Canadian musical talent.
Today I'm here with Roydon Tse. Thank you so much, Roydon, for joining me today.
Thank you, Brianna, for having me.
First things first, Roydon, where are you joining us from today?
Where in Canada do you call home?
I'm joining you online on this podcast from Calgary, where I currently call home.
(00:32):
But I've called multiple places in Canada home.
I've lived in Vancouver, I've lived in Toronto, and before that I was born in Hong Kong and
studied in the UK for a bit too.
Awesome.
So let's get a little into your musical background.
So you studied piano and violin performance for many years.
So how did you get into composition?
Was it simultaneous to your instrumental studies or separate?
(00:55):
Definitely, I would say so.
Every good Asian child, I started piano.
But I enjoyed it.
And I wouldn't say this is the same story for every person who starts piano.
And I really enjoyed it.
I would just practice all late into the night.
And then one day I would just, I think I remember walking down a street near my home in Hong
Kong and I just was listening, I heard some kind of music in my head, like some kind of
(01:17):
Bach remote.
So I wasn't sure.
I was just like, ah, dah, dah, dah, dah, like humming to myself.
And I thought, well, okay, like if I can hear music like that, maybe I could write it down
one day.
So that was kind of the first like spark of composing that popped into my head.
But I didn't really take it seriously.
And then fast forward a couple of years, I was in boarding school actually in England.
And it was there where I started to dabble in Sibelius using kind of notation software
(01:40):
to just jot down my notes and thoughts and then play it back, which is super informative
and helpful.
So that helped me like hear back.
Oh, was I doing something right?
Or that sound terrible?
It usually was terrible.
So I would just kind of keep going with that.
And then that led into kind of an encounter in Canada with great composer mentor, his
name is John Nastasio.
He lives in Edmonton and was the Edmonton Symphony's composer in residence.
(02:03):
And through him, I was able to have the opportunity to write for an orchestra.
And that listening to that result, to that piece that I first wrote for orchestra, cemented
my kind of like desire to say, hey, let's take composing more seriously.
Awesome.
What was that experience like hearing your work performed by a large ensemble for the
first time?
Well, yeah, like it's a it's pretty I don't know, it's they were very good ensemble for
(02:25):
sure.
And I was taken aback and very impressed by what they did.
And I thought from now on, I'm going to just write for orchestra because every other experience
would be like this, right?
Wrong.
You know, because you get orchestras that are great, you get orchestras that might not
be like as prepared as a professional orchestra.
So there was a lot of learning, but that first experience was like, wow, you know, it opened
my eyes in a great way.
(02:46):
Awesome.
Shifting gears here a little bit.
In your opinion, what are some defining characteristics of contemporary Canadian music?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think, well, there's definitely such a multiculturalness about Canadian music.
And you know, you probably you've spoken to many of these composers for your podcast,
listen to Brianna's podcast, everyone, if you haven't.
(03:09):
But you know, there's just such a diversity composers coming from all corners of the earth
to make Canada their home, which brings a lot of flavor to it, you know, and there's
really no one way of defining it.
And certainly, I think Canada has seen it's kind of there's this kind of mid century
period in Canada where things are very much like, let's be like Europe and be like post
tonal, you know, bulez, da da da.
(03:30):
And there was that kind of niche of contemporary music.
But I think nowadays, it's in a much kind of healthier place where everything's been
opened up.
There's less kind of dogma of like, you should compose in a certain style, which is great.
And there's no right or wrong way about doing music.
There's just kind of what feels right to you, I think.
So everyone's kind of doing their thing.
And it's very diverse in that way.
(03:51):
Beautiful.
There's definitely something unique about different cultures coming together in Canadian
music.
So you personally studied music both in the UK and Canada, and you're also from Hong Kong.
So how did these different musical environments shape your style and approach to composition?
I would say, you know, being brought up in Hong Kong was a very interesting experience
(04:11):
because it's sort of a already a mix of East and West, you know, it was a British colony
until 1997, but also part of China, you know, as part of the Chinese mainland.
So there was this kind of Britishness to it.
And like, there was this, people spoke English, you know, we got taught English in schools.
And then there was also the Chinese kind of background of culture.
People were Chinese there mostly.
(04:32):
And so growing up there, I was able to see both sides and see the benefits of both sides.
Although I think at that time in the 90s, it was very much like very pro-Western.
People were like, yay, yay, the West.
And then it kind of shifted a little bit more.
And then it shifted back because of recent events and everything.
But in Hong Kong, that was, I think, the case.
And it kind of, I think, built in my mind that it's possible to kind of go either way,
(04:54):
you know, it's fine.
I'm a Chinese person, but I also can think kind of thoughts that were like outside of
that bubble and try to kind of explore what identity means outside of China and in the
West and so forth.
And then fast forward to maybe a couple of years later, in the early 2000s, I went to
boarding school in England.
And that was also a very formative experience.
I went to a small town called Eastbourne.
(05:17):
That was where Debussy finished La Mer, his symphonic work.
And I was like, I didn't know that at the point.
I was just like, hey, I'm at school, you know, I wasn't really into like that much music.
But that experience was very, it was like very standard Western.
I don't know how to say it.
It was just like you're in a British boarding school, you would do all the things that British
kids did and you learn English and go to sports and stuff.
(05:39):
And we did music and the music was very much Western.
There wasn't much Chinese music or international music at that time, I think.
And so I was like, okay, yeah, this is the music that I loved anyways.
I loved Mozart, Beethoven, you know, all those composers.
And so that was a great kind of foundation that led me to explore more about how to put
this all together in a compositional kind of way.
And then Canada was like another like open eyes moment because I thought my two, my two
(06:04):
kind of experiences in the world were Hong Kong and England at that time.
And going to Canada was like, wow, this place is so big and like there's so much possibility
here.
That was kind of my first thought, you know, like it's a big place, but there are as many
people and you can kind of, you have that freedom to do what you want.
And which is contrasting to, I think, some of the mentality in England where people were
like, hey, we did this for like a thousand years, you know, why are you trying to change
(06:26):
this?
Or like, this is the kind of trend here.
But Canada is a relatively young country in comparison.
And so there's this kind of feeling of possibility of like, you can really make your mark here
as a person as and as an artist.
So it was also in Canada that I started seriously thinking about studying music and studying
music here.
So Canada, I think, made the most impact for me as a composer and just kind of helped me
(06:49):
see what the world could be as through composition, really.
Awesome.
Well, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but I want to go deeper into this fusion of
Eastern and Western.
How do you blend that inside your music?
And could you give an example?
Yeah, yeah.
And it's a thought that I kind of, maybe 10 or 12 years ago, I started thinking about
(07:10):
because I had this kind of very Western upbringing.
I had this idea that I would write symphonies and like sonatas and string quartets.
I'm like, that's the form I aspire to.
And then when I started going to composition and meeting other composers, I started to
think, well, there are these composers, these great Canadian composers who are like from
all these parts of the world and they're doing this great thing of their cultural identity.
What about my kind of identity too?
(07:31):
And then started asking that question.
But when thinking about fusion of East and West, I always thought that it wasn't something
that I had to do, right?
Just because I look like a Chinese composer doesn't mean I have to incorporate Chinese
works.
So I feel like it had to come from somewhere kind of authentically, first of all.
And if you look at some of my pieces, like some of them, yes, have been inspired by say
Chinese poetry, Chinese texts or Chinese instruments.
(07:54):
But then there's also a lot that are very purely just like, this is a string quartet.
That's it.
Or there's like a concept behind it.
So for me, I like to try to keep it fresh and try to keep it like authentic.
What does this piece need first?
And then I can say whether or not I need to bring in say my background, in my cultural
background or think about exploring other kinds of musical influences.
(08:17):
But I always think about the fusion of Chinese instruments and the East and West is a very
broad concept, not necessarily related to just instruments or texts or themes, but more
broadly like the Chinese way of thinking or the Chinese mentality, the psyche and also
the Western psyche and how that kind of can collide but also meld somehow.
So I like to start from that because that I think creates something more unique because
(08:41):
there's so many great works out there that blend non-Western instruments, for example,
with Western instruments.
And so my goal is not to replicate that as a composer, but my goal is to think about
deeply like, what is the real connection between East and West?
And do we need to even say this is a fusion of East and West?
Or can we just be like, this is a piece?
And then you kind of, what I want the listener to kind of get is kind of feel the Eastern
(09:05):
energy and also the Western energy somehow without making it so explicit in a way.
It's definitely really interesting.
Is there like a specific piece where this connection or like psychological connection
at least is evident?
I feel like my first big piece for orchestra and sheng, the Radiant Light Concerto was
probably the piece I put the most thought in about like, how should fusion happen in
(09:31):
a deep and kind of like personal way, right?
Because so that concerto for sheng, for those who don't know, it's a piece that incorporated
this folk song.
And this folk song, I took the first five notes of the folk song and treated it in three
different sections.
One was about like the rising of the sun and then the second section was about the midday
and then the third section was about the setting of the sun.
(09:53):
So there's this kind of arc to this composition.
And so I wanted to think about the piece, first of all, from this narrative point, like
can I create this narrative that people can understand first?
And then the folk song kind of makes its appearance in kind of fragments throughout this kind
of piece.
So people can, if they know the folk song, can kind of pick bits and pieces out.
But it's really not, it's not supposed to be a rehashing or a rearrangement of the folk
(10:15):
song per se.
It's more kind of a deeper treatment of saying going deeper into the folk song and then taking
that material that is already so familiar for some audiences and then transforming it
into this larger sound kind of palette.
That is, I think what Western music can do really well, what composers have done historically
is that they can take simple material and then like expand it into these big, big forms,
(10:37):
right?
So I wanted to kind of try that with this kind of quintessential Chinese material and
then try to like work with that and then also throw in a sheng, which was the first time
I've ever done that thing for, first, like I've never played with a sheng.
And then I consulted a person who knew how to play sheng in Toronto and he gave me some
really important like advice and tips on how to write for sheng.
And that became the sheng concerto with an orchestra.
(11:00):
So that whole process, I mean, I'm simplifying here, but it really led me to think deeply
about what that fusion could mean on a personal level without having to say, kind of appeal
to tropes or like bring in certain influences that are very obviously, say, Chinese.
Another thing we have to balance in music nowadays is contemporary influences with kind
(11:23):
of traditional forms and structures.
And I know you have a piece called Unrelenting Sorrow that was noted for late romantic directions.
How do you balance these contemporary influences with the traditional forms?
Yeah, that's also another great question because nowadays as composers, we have such a rich
possibility of technique.
(11:44):
You know, we've got all the innovations that have happened in the last hundred years, extended
techniques.
We've also got electronics, you know, the ways to generate and manipulate sound live
or like pre-recorded ways.
So there's just like the Pandora box has been open.
We really can't put everything back in.
And as composers, I think it's our job to kind of consider all that, like what can we
do with these tools instead of saying, I'm just going to stick to this one path and do
(12:07):
what I can do.
So I think that's what excites me as a composer, just like looking at all these tools and think,
how can I try to find this kind of way to incorporate that within a logical musical
statement that hopefully people can understand and can kind of retain in their mind.
And so speaking of Unrelenting Sorrow, I think that was a piece that I wrote during the pandemic.
It was a commission from the Toronto Symphony.
(12:29):
And it was, yeah, like it was a sad piece as the title kind of suggests.
Like it's not light entertainment.
It's just this kind of heavy or castral music.
But within it, like I wanted to, I started with this idea of creating, how do I evoke
the feeling of layered sorrow?
Right?
Like I imagine all the people that experience loss during this troubling time, obviously,
(12:53):
how do I kind of bring that all into a symphonic piece, a piece where it could involve a hundred
people on stage?
That's sort of this metaphor for community and society in general.
And so I thought about layering these lines, these ascending lines, kind of like a river.
You see these kind of crests that kind of go over each other.
And that's kind of the idea that I got for Unrelenting Sorrow.
(13:13):
So this melodic line just kind of goes above and above each other and the crescendos to
a couple of points in the piece.
And then during this kind of crescendo too, I added different percussive kind of techniques.
Like I used the guiro to indicate this kind of abrasiveness to it.
I asked the horns to play a quarter flat at points to just kind of offset the sense that
(13:35):
we are in a normal kind of symphonic setting or like everything's in one key.
So I've just used some of those elements to offset the listener's expectation as well.
So you know, and at the end of the day, I think these techniques and you know, we're
talking about electronic manipulation of sound, etc.
I think all of this has to be done in context of what you're trying to achieve as a composer.
(13:57):
And I always think about that, like what I want to say and how do these things kind of
come into my universe and help me say those things.
And if they're not important, then there's no reason why I shouldn't, you know, I should
include them in this kind of universe and sound world I'm trying to create.
So I think it's a very personal process.
And probably if you ask other composers, they will have very different answers.
So I do believe that, yeah, like they play such an important role and it's great to incorporate
(14:21):
them in some way, but within a clear vision of what you want to achieve.
Yeah, definitely.
We have such a wide array of options now to choose from and explore.
And I think you blend traditional and contemporary very nicely.
And so you are also an educator now.
So how do you approach teaching composition and what key lessons do you aim to convey
(14:44):
when you teach?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I guess, yeah, I've been an educator for how long?
I mean, probably like 10 years.
So I am still an educator and I still consider education being this super important part
of what I do because I think I just have this, I don't know, I like communicating and connecting
with people and composing being such a solitary event.
(15:05):
It's always nice to have this other side of like, I go out and I work with younger people
or even older people to just like communicate and show them what music can do.
And I think because I'm inspired every day by the composers I listen to and I try to
do some of that in my own music.
And I feel it just it naturally comes to me as like, I need to somehow tell other people
about what we're doing because the composer community, as you know, it's a small one in
(15:29):
the broad kind of landscape of music.
You've got contemporary composers and you've got like maybe film composers and you've got
like Billie Eilish, right?
And you've got like, you know, everything else that's out there.
And we're just this kind of tiny microcosm.
It's interesting because I got into the community and sometimes I talk about like what I do
as a composer and they're like, oh, you know, there's a living composer, you know, like,
(15:50):
what's that?
You know, I thought they're all all dead and like they're like Beethoven and Mozart.
Like, no, actually, we're alive.
We're still composing, but just in different ways.
So right now I'm teaching at the University of Calgary doing some composition teaching
and what I try to instill in them is the idea of how everything should come from this artistic
vision, you know, and I've touched on this before where I said, like, you know, there's
(16:13):
just so much possibility.
There's so many tools available.
Like, how do you first of all, like, assimilate all of that?
And then secondly, how do you innovate from that?
How do you draw from that rich resource and bring it and turn it into something your own?
Right.
So it has to come from this kind of knowledge, I think, of what you want to say.
And I try to work with my students in different ways on how to get that, because you can say
(16:34):
that like, say what you want to say, but it's like, whoa, what do you do?
Like it's such an abstract concept and a lot of, you know, as you know, music and composition
can be so abstract.
And so for me, I want to try to de-abstractify it.
And that's not a word, but I just made it up.
First year on Brianna's podcast, guys.
But the de-abstract, like all this kind of thing, they're going to say, okay, this is
(16:55):
an you might have an idea.
Maybe it's like a sound, maybe it's an image or narrative.
Let's try to condense it into a timeline of sorts, or let's try to condense it into a
couple of words that resonate with you as a person.
And then from those kind of materials, maybe like very, very sparse, maybe it's a chord,
maybe it's a melody, right?
Whatever it might be, let's condense it.
And then let's see, we can extrapolate that into the future, like for five minutes, 10
(17:18):
minutes or an hour, right?
And see what happens when you do that.
And then from there you think, okay, I've got this idea.
Let's think about technique.
And always technique comes after I feel that kind of hashing out a vision, hashing out
of what you want to say.
And then we can start having those more detailed conversations like counterpoint, harmony,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So that's what I hope to instill.
(17:39):
I don't know if it's successful.
We'll see at the end of the day with the teaching reviews, blah, blah, blah.
Awesome.
What do you enjoy most about being a composer?
And then what do you enjoy most about being an educator?
There are these two different roles that you have.
Yeah, oh, that's a great question.
I mean, I think with being a composer, it's always like listening to your piece, you know,
(18:01):
being able to go to that performance and say, well, like this is what I worked on for a
year and now I can finally hear the professional orchestra or great soloist play it.
That's always very rewarding.
But more and more, I also find that like I really value the artistic process, the journey
of getting to that final product, because maybe it's due to age because I've done this
(18:21):
for a while too.
So I'm like, yeah, I've heard the premieres, I've heard the great orchestras, but I always
feel like the journey is always different.
The hardest thing about being a composer, I think, is starting with that blank page
and going, what do I do?
And then from there, you take that first step, then the second step usually comes and then
the third step and so forth.
But it's always hard in that first kind of blank slate kind of starting point.
(18:43):
So I think overcoming that challenge in different ways each time is also a very satisfying thing
for a composer.
Being like, oh, I found this kind of creative solution.
I've written another orchestral piece that's different from that previous orchestral piece
that I did, like, yay, let's celebrate.
So that's also very rewarding, so that process from nothing to something is always different.
(19:06):
About being an educator, I think the rewarding thing is seeing students click, like, oh,
they understand something.
Like, oh, yeah, this is so cool.
I'm glad you showed me this.
I play a lot of excerpts in my classes where I go, oh, this is a composer that you should
know about in relation to, say, harmony or counterpoint.
And I ask the class every time, I'm like, has anyone heard of so-and-so composer?
(19:27):
And no one puts their hand out.
I'm like, great, this is your first time hearing this composer.
And so that's also a very rewarding thing because you remember your first time, remember
your first time hearing a great piece of music and how that experience kind of sticks in
your mind.
So I think being that person for maybe a class of students where I can introduce a great
piece of music, it's like, wow, I can be that for them.
(19:48):
And also being able to guide them in a way that helps them and encourages them in their
journey.
So that's what a great teacher can do in composition or in any kind of format where
creativity is involved.
It's not about establishing what is right or wrong, unlike certain fields where you
do need to know what's right or wrong.
Like mathematics, OK, there's a right or wrong to that.
(20:10):
You've got to enforce that very clearly.
Engineering, OK, lives are going to be lost.
Let's enforce right or wrong, right, clearly.
But in music and art, there's no right or wrong answer.
Just kind of what's stronger for you as a person.
So being that encouraging voice, I think, is so important, but also very rewarding for
me to be like, hey, maybe I can help you with this and speak to this problem that you're
(20:31):
having and try to help move that.
Yeah.
Beautiful.
To wrap things up here, are there any exciting upcoming projects we should look forward to?
Yeah, I guess so.
Say this very like unconvincingly.
But I said today, actually, as we're doing this podcast, maybe a couple of hours ago,
the Philadelphia Orchestra just did a piece of mine in Beijing, which I can't go to because
(20:54):
it was like they only announced the very last minute, but they did a piece called Yellow
Crane Tower with singers, a baritone and tenor soloist and orchestra.
So that was very exciting.
So unfortunately, I can't be there for that.
But in the future, I have a commission for a concerto for string quartet and orchestra
happening in Maryland with the Annapolis Symphony and then a premiere of a long, like an older
(21:15):
work called Stepwise inspired by jazz with the Esprit Orchestra in Toronto.
So that's happening in 2025.
So those are the main things going on for me right now.
Amazing.
Well, that brings us to the end of today's episode.
Thank you so much, Royden, for sharing such beautiful pieces of your art and heart.
(21:35):
Until next time, folks, keep listening for the notes of the North.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.