January 13, 2024 • 28 mins
Today Dr. Vince Ho discusses his eclectic and multicultural mosaic of musical influences. We also hear about how the pandemic served as a powerful springboard for his career. How do you fuse together East and West? How can we see fear as an ally? All this and more.
Featured works:
The Shaman: Concerto for Percussion and Orchestra: I. Ritual
The Water Dragon: Concerto For Zhongruan And Chinese Orchestra
Whimsical Sketches of Fanciful Birds: Book 3. V. The Angel and the Mockingbird
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everyone, happy 2024!
(00:08):
Welcome back to Notes of the North Talks, a series where we get to know our local Canadian
composer talent.
Today I'm here with Dr. Vincent Ho.
Thank you so much, Vince, for taking the time to speak with me today.
My pleasure.
Thank you for inviting me.
All right, so let's jump right in.
First and foremost, I'd love to get to know your background a little bit.
(00:28):
So where in Canada do you call home?
Well, I was born in Ottawa, and then my parents moved to Alberta when I was five years old.
At the time, my dad got a job in the oil industry, and we were living in a small town called
Pinchaw Creek.
Then a year later, we moved to Calgary.
That would have been 1980, and that's where I lived up until 1998.
(00:53):
At that point, I moved to Toronto, did my master's there, then did a year in Banff in
2000.
Then I went to do my doctorate in Los Angeles at University of Southern California in 2001.
Upon graduation, I was appointed composer in residence with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra.
That was 2007.
(01:14):
I lived there until 2015, and then I came back to Calgary in 2015.
So I've been here ever since.
Awesome.
Is there any place else that you feel particularly connected to, and that may have shaped your
work?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Certainly, I did a summer in Paris, France, back in 1997.
I received a scholarship from Juilliard to study at the Les Gala Catorum.
(01:37):
That certainly opened my eyes to a lot of things.
I got to study with Philip Lasser, Narsi Bonnet, and David Diamond, who was running the program
at the time.
Let's see, I would have been 23 at the time.
I traveled quite a bit in Asia, where I was introduced to the art of Chinese traditional
(02:01):
instruments and their performance practices, and also Chinese orchestras.
That really made a significant impact in the direction of my musical language.
I was first introduced to this art form, this performance practice in 2012, when they presented
a Chinese orchestra version of my percussion concerto, the Shaman.
This would have been in Taipei with the Taipei Chinese Orchestra.
(02:24):
That opened my world up tremendously.
Ever since, I've been going back and forth to Taipei, Hong Kong, and various areas in
Asia.
That's amazing.
Yes, you mentioned the Shaman, and you also have the water dragon, 12 Chinese zodiac animals.
I love how these heritage roots are reflected in your music.
(02:45):
How do these inspirations manifest in your creative process, and would you say they contribute
to a unique sound?
Yes, absolutely.
In fact, it started way back when I was doing my doctorate at University of Southern California.
I was doing a minor in musicology, and my thesis was on the musical language of bi-cultural
(03:08):
Chinese North American composers of my generation.
I specifically wanted to focus on that because I was in the process of trying to figure out
my own musical language.
Being a bi-cultural identity, I was trying to figure out, okay, what is my language?
I'm a product of two worlds, the Asian Eastern world and the Western world.
(03:28):
This study allowed me to identify the distinguishing characteristics of the two creative worlds.
Each of the two distinctions really reflected who I was as a person because I identified
with both sides of the world.
Through my research there, I got to examine a lot of the works of Asian North American
(03:51):
composers of my generation, got to hear their stories, and I also got to interview many
composers of the previous generation that came to North America from China and made
a significant impact in the new music world.
Just some context, China went through the Cultural Revolution and they didn't open
(04:13):
up their music schools until the mid-1970s or late-1970s.
By the 1980s, China was opening their doors to the world as an effort to modernize.
At that point, those who went to the music conservatories in the 70s would have been
graduating at this point in the 80s.
(04:33):
It was at that point when a composer from Colombia, Cho Wencheng, I believe, went to
China and brought over a select few of their top graduates in composition.
This was known as the first wave of the Chinese composers that came to North America and made
a significant impact on the Western music scene.
(04:55):
This included Tan Dun, Bright Sheng, Zhao Long, Chen Yi, and many others.
That was the first generation that made the cultural diaspora that my generation was introduced
to, music that gave us insight as to the music that they were creating while they were in
(05:18):
China that they brought over.
My generation is known as the second generation of the Asian North American composer scene.
We were highly influenced by that previous generation.
My study at the time was trying to understand the distinctions through their music as well
as hearing the stories of the composers of my generation and seeing how they were able
(05:40):
to reconcile those differences as they searched for their own musical language.
Going back to your question, the whole idea of bringing together Western musical traditions
and styles and aesthetics with my Chinese cultural heritage has always been innately
(06:01):
there.
It was one of the things that I intuitively felt was an important part of my creative
thinking.
My music continually reflects that.
I would say that most of my music represents my bicultural identity in many ways.
For example, I recently wrote book two of the 12 Chinese zodiac animals.
(06:24):
It's a collection of preludes and fugues.
Preludes and fugues is a Western European musical tradition that I loved.
I used to play the piano and Bach through preludes and fugues and Shostakovich's Phrase
and Fugues.
It's something that I absolutely adore.
What if I were to try to give my own take on this art form?
(06:47):
That's where I brought the cultural element into my creative thinking when I was writing
my own preludes and fugues.
That represented the confluence of the two worlds in musical form.
You see these examples of such confluences in many of my works.
Not all of them, but certainly a large portion of my works deal with that kind of theme.
(07:10):
Amazing.
Well, then all in all, what would you describe your musical style as if you could only use
three adjectives?
Oh gosh.
Okay, yeah.
See, definitely, okay, well, eclectic, expressive, and imaginative.
I don't want to pitch and hole certain descriptions to my music, but I'm the kind of person that
(07:37):
likes to try new things with every project.
In fact, that's one of the criteria that I look for in a new project is whether it's
something that will creatively interest me, whether there's some growth opportunity there,
if it's something that will open up new doors, creative doors that will expand my horizons.
Those are the things that I look for.
With that kind of criteria, it's hard for me to pinpoint what kind of music or the scriptive
(08:04):
words that I would use to characterize my music because every journey is very different.
I have no idea where it can lead to.
If you compare, for example, my first string quartet, it's like worlds apart from the
water dragon that I recently wrote.
I mean, it's completely worlds apart.
But yeah, I'd say eclectic is certainly a word that I use quite often.
(08:26):
Perfect.
Well, if you could recommend to the listeners one of your pieces that has a good introduction
to your music, what would you recommend?
Oh gosh.
Yeah, that's a difficult question.
And I'll tell you why.
Because I'm now 48 turning 49, I've been composing for over 20 odd years.
And so my music and my language has evolved so much.
(08:50):
And so when somebody asks me a question like that, it depends on which period of my life.
Oh, it's a different era.
Yeah, exactly.
If they want to hear an early work of mine, then I would say, yeah, this work definitely
best represents the music I was writing at that time.
This best represents the period when I was my 30s.
And this best represents the music that I'm currently writing.
(09:12):
To answer your question, I guess the work that best represents the music that I write
now would be my recent saxophone concerto that was premiered in November by Saskatoon
Symphony Orchestra and Timothy McAlister.
It's called Whimsical Concerto of Fancyville Birds.
And yeah, it's a 30 minute work.
(09:32):
I spent a year working, well actually more than a year, a year and a half working on
it.
And so that for me is a summation of the kind of musical thinking that best represents who
I am now.
Awesome.
So we talked a little bit about how your compositions connected you close to Asian history and Asian
culture.
(09:53):
On the flip side, what do you see as Canada's musical style, if there is one, like if you
could describe Canadian composition in say three words, what would they be?
Well, okay, now that's an excellent question.
It's a question that keeps coming up throughout my life, throughout my career, actually.
First of all, Canada is very diverse.
That's one word, very multi cultural, that's another, and it's a mosaic.
(10:16):
Okay, that's three.
And they all, I guess you could say are pretty much the same definition.
But that's highly important because the thing about Canada is that it's a country of differences,
it's a country of diversity.
And the consequence of that is that because we live in a country of so many differences,
(10:37):
we are so used to embracing and acknowledging those differences.
Now what does that mean in musical form?
It means that we can, as composers, we can write whatever we want, knowing that it could
be appreciated by a receptive audience that's used to such eclectic musical styles and traditions.
And so when someone asks, okay, well, what's a Canadian musical style?
(10:59):
Well, there is no real, in my opinion, Canadian quote unquote style.
There is a Canadian principle and that is the differences that we bring to the scene,
our unique voices that we bring to the scene, knowing that it's going to be appreciated
by a community or a nation that is used to embracing these kinds of differences.
(11:20):
So that I guess, yeah, that's how I would say it.
That's beautiful.
How has being in Canada shaped your music specifically?
Is there a piece that was really inspired by the landscapes, for example?
Absolutely.
Definitely the wide open spaces that characterizes Canada's landscape plays a huge role.
I mean, I lived in Calgary for most of my life and so being near the Rocky Mountains
(11:45):
and in the prairies as well played a huge role in defining who I am.
Then I lived in Toronto for two years and the university is like in the middle of the
city center.
So that has a different environmental, that was a different environmental experience for
me that shaped who I was.
And then I lived in Winnipeg for seven years, seven, eight years.
(12:07):
And being that it's like so isolated, it's like surrounded by nothing but fields, that
is also a unique environmental experience for myself.
And so each of these cities that I lived in played a significant role to my musical thinking
because of the environmental conditions.
Such environmental conditions also reflect the social patterns of each city.
(12:31):
I mean, Calgary and Toronto couldn't be any more different, honestly.
And so as a consequence, it brought out different sides of me that only those cities could.
But also, I love the fact that Canada is so open to multicultural differences or multiculturalism
because that allows me to be curious with experimenting with other musical traditions,
(12:55):
other musical styles, other aesthetics and find my own voice within these, I guess, concepts.
And that for me allowed me to, gives me the freedom to be, to expand my horizons to explore
as much as I can.
And also to this day and age where you can have access to music almost anywhere in the
(13:17):
world with the touch of a button.
Being a Canada gives me that chance to be able to explore cultural communities that
only a mosaic country can provide.
So that feeds into my process.
Awesome.
Is there any work that was particularly inspiring?
(13:39):
Gosh, they all did.
They all are examples.
Actually, yeah, I would stick right now, like for now, my saxophone concerto, Whimsical
Concerto of Fantasy of Birds, mainly because it was a year and a half long collaboration
with various communities, with a local indigenous community in Saskatchewan, because it dealt
(14:05):
with the theme of birds.
And so I needed to do some research on the cultural importance and significance of birds
within that community, especially given that the piece was being performed on their land.
Also I was collaborating with the Earth Environmental Science Department at the University of Saskatchewan
(14:26):
to gain some insight on the current research there is on bird migrations within the Canadian
landscape.
And so that also added to my creative thinking and that helped give rise to the great decisions
I had to make for this particular piece.
And of course, in the work is embedded my musical language, which is a confluence of
(14:51):
the Western and Eastern musical aesthetic in its own way.
But that's something that's intuitively already ingrained or intuitively a part of my musical
thinking already.
It's just not something, it's like a signature.
I just don't think about it.
It's just naturally there whenever I create a musical idea.
So fantastic.
Well, shifting gears a little bit, the music scene in Canada and around the world, especially
(15:15):
the quote unquote traditional classical scene is definitely changing.
Oh, yeah.
Have you found it challenging to adapt to these changing cultural circumstances in our
modern world, especially with electronic music and technology becoming ever so prominent?
Oh, yeah.
I don't want to say I'm having troubles.
I'd say it's just the nature of okay.
(15:40):
Well, I mean, I have to think about that, to be honest, because part of being a freelance
composer for me is that by the sheer nature of my profession, I have no choice but to
adapt to every changing situation, especially when I move from city to city, I have to be
able to adapt to the local cultural patterns, behavioral patterns, and also the values,
(16:06):
the local values of each city.
And so it's just something that is already the principle of adaptation is already something
that I'm used to.
And so when it comes to adapting to the changing circumstances of the art of our art form and
music in Canada, that's something that I am already receptive to.
(16:27):
Some people have troubles adapt.
I will acknowledge that because the technology changes so fast within like instantaneously.
I mean, I have an 11 year old daughter and she's like playing on apps and has a certain
technological advantage over me in terms of being up to date as to what's out there and
(16:48):
what she has access to.
But that being said, I think for me, I find that having that ability to adapt empowers
me as an artist to have control over how I disseminate my music.
So what do I mean by that?
It means that now I can have access to music resources online, which wasn't there 20 years
(17:11):
ago.
I have the ability to create my own website, have to share my music on various platforms,
that it be iTunes, SoundCloud, my website, YouTube.
And so I have more control over how my music, not total control, but more control in the
sense that I don't have to rely on other institutions or organizations.
(17:34):
I can now be able to put out my music in forms that more audiences can reach.
And so that is the advantage of the changing circumstances of our form, is that we are
now becoming more and more empowered and taking control over how we disseminate our music
(17:55):
and how we communicate ourselves online, especially as our world gets more and more globalized
almost every day.
It's a challenge for many, and I admit it can be very exhausting, but at the same time,
the challenge brings out creative thinking that I would not have been able to do had
(18:16):
I not been forced in that position.
It forces me to be put in a situation where I have to think creatively on how to work
around new challenges, how to work around certain hurdles that I may be faced.
A great example, actually this is a tremendous example, but 2020 March, I won't forget,
it was two days before the Juneau Awards, it was in Saskatoon, I was nominated that
(18:39):
year.
And then that morning, two days before, we all throughout Canada got the notification
that it was being canceled because of COVID.
And so I was like, oh, well, that's a downer, but I totally understand.
But that triggered a wave of cancellations throughout North America and all over the
(19:00):
world in terms of concert performances.
And so one by one, all many of my colleagues and myself, our concerts were being canceled.
And we had no idea how long this was going to last.
And so there was a period where I was thinking, oh gosh, okay, so what am I going to do?
Should I rethink my career?
How am I going to make a living?
Is that it for commissions for the next while?
(19:22):
To my surprise, a few weeks later, I was starting to get commissions from many of my colleagues
that I've collaborated with in the past.
By this point, I've built up a global network of collaborators.
And what I found is that one by one, they were going online with their performances.
(19:44):
They still needed to maintain connection with their core audiences, and they were putting
their concerts online live, but that also meant they needed new content.
And so gradually, I was getting more commissions until about two months later, I was getting
an avalanche of requests to write music.
And so I found myself in the fortunate, very fortunate position of being one of the few
(20:09):
people that benefited from the pandemic.
And so this was one of those situations where there was a massive challenge that I was being
faced.
The nature of the concert classical world changed practically.
But due to my, I guess, the know how and the relationships that I've built along the way,
I was able to pivot and find my way around that challenge to continue what I did.
(20:34):
And so I found myself incredibly busy during the two year period of the pandemic, more
so than ever before.
So that was just one example where I had no choice but to adapt to the situation, but
it was a smooth adaptation because of the professional relationships that I had built
up to that point.
So that's just one example.
(20:55):
And then there are many other examples that I could cite, but that was definitely one
example that really stuck in my mind, given the circumstances that I would, I mean, at
the time, if you think about it, if I was told 20 years ago, you know, you're going
to be in a position where you're going to be so busy while the world shuts down.
(21:15):
I would never have believed it.
I would have been, yeah, you're crazy.
I'm like a composer.
Come on, really?
So it's almost as if it's like being told that you won the lottery.
I mean, come on, really?
So those are just, that's just one example.
And I advise a lot of students to try to think outside the box, get used to thinking outside
(21:38):
the box and take a risk.
You never know what's going to, what could you could benefit from if you just step outside
the norm and expand your, at your horizons on what is possible.
And so by doing that, it's not only, how do I put this?
It not only opens up new doors of opportunities, it also puts you in a situation where you
(22:03):
get used to thinking about taking risks.
You get start to get comfortable with that little bit of fear that comes along with taking
those risks.
And by having that fear actually helps because that fear motivates, at least for me, it motivates
me to be that much more focused on doing the best job I can.
It's much like how, say, like for students, the equivalent would be preparing for our
(22:28):
final exam.
There's that element of fear that motivates them to try to do their best.
And so it's that, yeah.
And so it's a matter of just getting used to that fear, but using it as an ally to bring
out the best in you.
So when it comes to adaptation, I think that was, that is the one thing that I gained throughout
(22:49):
my years as a freelance composer is getting used to being, to managing that fear in a
healthy way to get me through any challenges that I may be faced.
Some people try to avoid that fear altogether.
They're just, they can't handle the fear.
So they try to create these situations that makes them comfortable just to avoid that
(23:11):
fear.
For me, I find that, well, okay, yeah, I understand that.
You don't want to stress yourself out.
But at the same time, a lot of these issues, they're going to be there no matter what.
So you may as well try to find a way to sit comfortably with that fear and face those
challenges head on in a healthy way.
So that's an amazing way to end off with this message of using your fear as a motivator
(23:34):
or intrinsic motivation as a springboard for your...
Let me tell you the story of how that made me shift my thing.
It was near the tail end of my doctoral program.
And I was freaking out because I didn't know what I was going to do after I graduated.
(23:54):
I mean, I didn't know what my career was going to take me.
And after that point, I didn't know what to do.
And so I was getting pretty scared.
I remember I was in my apartment in Los Angeles and thinking, okay, you know what?
I've got a few hundred dollars in my bank account.
If I allocated some money to grocery shopping and if I get a job doing this and this, I
(24:14):
think I should be able to manage.
But then I realized, okay, what is motivating me to do this?
What motivating me is that I was terrified.
I was scared.
I was just trying to create a situation to manage the fear, to almost like try to deny
that fear or avoid that fear.
And I said to myself, oh man, Vince, you're being such a coward.
(24:35):
Okay, this is a moment where it's do or sink or swim.
And so you better pull yourself by the bootstraps and really start taking what you do seriously
or else that's it.
And so this is what I did.
No joke.
Instead of creating a safe situation for myself, I decided to my lock away for two months and
(25:01):
just focus on trying to write the best music I possibly could.
Because at that moment, I thought I was cornered.
I had nowhere else to go.
I had no out.
It was like pretty much the end of the line for me.
And so I used that fear, that terrifying fear, to pour my heart out as if my life depended
on it.
And I tell you what, during those two months, I wrote the best music I possibly could.
(25:27):
And it was at the end of those two months where I started winning prizes and the phone
started to ring for commissions.
And that was when I realized, okay, this is a turning point for me.
I can't run away from these fears.
I can't run away from these challenges throughout my life.
There are times where I'm going to have to face it and use that fear to motivate myself
(25:49):
to do the best job I can.
And that will be the only time where, well, not I shouldn't say the only time, but those
are the times that I will really learn from the experience, learn what I'm made of, and
see what can be done when I'm pushed to the limits.
And since then, I've grown so accustomed to facing these kinds of challenges in similar
(26:12):
ways.
Now, granted, there are some fears where are overwhelming.
And that's when I say to myself, okay, I need to step back.
This is too much for me.
Okay.
Yeah, there is a limit.
There is a limit.
But I know what those limits are.
That's the point that I'm making is that I felt that from that experience, I learned
(26:33):
what my limit was.
I learned what I was able to do once I pushed myself to that limit, carrying that fear with
me.
And since then, I've been carrying that, I guess, that litmus test with everything I
do.
And since then, it's been a very, very amusing and exciting ride.
(26:59):
Absolutely incredible.
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
I really appreciated hearing all of your insights and journey as a composer.
And of course, for the motivational speech at the end, which is very relatable to everybody.
Oh, yeah.
It's applicable to any field.
(27:21):
Oh, yeah, I think so.
And also, I just want to say for young composers, I do want to just one thing that they always
fear, I mean, fear is a commonality.
And I get that.
But the one thing I try to tell them, and this is important, is that look, no two careers
are the same.
(27:41):
So stop seeing everything as a competition.
Just focus on developing your intuitions and trusting your instincts, and things will smooth
out for yourself.
One, other people's failures or successes is not going to impact one's own development.
So focus on what's best for yourself.
(28:01):
And the other advice I give is to always try to think like an emerging artist.
Always.
I mean, I'm turning 49, but I consider myself a 49-year-old emerging composer.
And by doing that, you maintain that youthful awesome, the curiosity and sense of wonder
with every project you take on.
And that is important.
So that's my advice.
(28:23):
Beautiful.
Hello everyone, happy 2024!
(00:08):
Welcome back to Notes of the North Talks, a series where we get to know our local Canadian
composer talent.
Today I'm here with Dr. Vincent Ho.
Thank you so much, Vince, for taking the time to speak with me today.
My pleasure.
Thank you for inviting me.
All right, so let's jump right in.
First and foremost, I'd love to get to know your background a little bit.
(00:28):
So where in Canada do you call home?
Well, I was born in Ottawa, and then my parents moved to Alberta when I was five years old.
At the time, my dad got a job in the oil industry, and we were living in a small town called
Pinchaw Creek.
Then a year later, we moved to Calgary.
That would have been 1980, and that's where I lived up until 1998.
(00:53):
At that point, I moved to Toronto, did my master's there, then did a year in Banff in
2000.
Then I went to do my doctorate in Los Angeles at University of Southern California in 2001.
Upon graduation, I was appointed composer in residence with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra.
That was 2007.
(01:14):
I lived there until 2015, and then I came back to Calgary in 2015.
So I've been here ever since.
Awesome.
Is there any place else that you feel particularly connected to, and that may have shaped your
work?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Certainly, I did a summer in Paris, France, back in 1997.
I received a scholarship from Juilliard to study at the Les Gala Catorum.
(01:37):
That certainly opened my eyes to a lot of things.
I got to study with Philip Lasser, Narsi Bonnet, and David Diamond, who was running the program
at the time.
Let's see, I would have been 23 at the time.
I traveled quite a bit in Asia, where I was introduced to the art of Chinese traditional
(02:01):
instruments and their performance practices, and also Chinese orchestras.
That really made a significant impact in the direction of my musical language.
I was first introduced to this art form, this performance practice in 2012, when they presented
a Chinese orchestra version of my percussion concerto, the Shaman.
This would have been in Taipei with the Taipei Chinese Orchestra.
(02:24):
That opened my world up tremendously.
Ever since, I've been going back and forth to Taipei, Hong Kong, and various areas in
Asia.
That's amazing.
Yes, you mentioned the Shaman, and you also have the water dragon, 12 Chinese zodiac animals.
I love how these heritage roots are reflected in your music.
(02:45):
How do these inspirations manifest in your creative process, and would you say they contribute
to a unique sound?
Yes, absolutely.
In fact, it started way back when I was doing my doctorate at University of Southern California.
I was doing a minor in musicology, and my thesis was on the musical language of bi-cultural
(03:08):
Chinese North American composers of my generation.
I specifically wanted to focus on that because I was in the process of trying to figure out
my own musical language.
Being a bi-cultural identity, I was trying to figure out, okay, what is my language?
I'm a product of two worlds, the Asian Eastern world and the Western world.
(03:28):
This study allowed me to identify the distinguishing characteristics of the two creative worlds.
Each of the two distinctions really reflected who I was as a person because I identified
with both sides of the world.
Through my research there, I got to examine a lot of the works of Asian North American
(03:51):
composers of my generation, got to hear their stories, and I also got to interview many
composers of the previous generation that came to North America from China and made
a significant impact in the new music world.
Just some context, China went through the Cultural Revolution and they didn't open
(04:13):
up their music schools until the mid-1970s or late-1970s.
By the 1980s, China was opening their doors to the world as an effort to modernize.
At that point, those who went to the music conservatories in the 70s would have been
graduating at this point in the 80s.
(04:33):
It was at that point when a composer from Colombia, Cho Wencheng, I believe, went to
China and brought over a select few of their top graduates in composition.
This was known as the first wave of the Chinese composers that came to North America and made
a significant impact on the Western music scene.
(04:55):
This included Tan Dun, Bright Sheng, Zhao Long, Chen Yi, and many others.
That was the first generation that made the cultural diaspora that my generation was introduced
to, music that gave us insight as to the music that they were creating while they were in
(05:18):
China that they brought over.
My generation is known as the second generation of the Asian North American composer scene.
We were highly influenced by that previous generation.
My study at the time was trying to understand the distinctions through their music as well
as hearing the stories of the composers of my generation and seeing how they were able
(05:40):
to reconcile those differences as they searched for their own musical language.
Going back to your question, the whole idea of bringing together Western musical traditions
and styles and aesthetics with my Chinese cultural heritage has always been innately
(06:01):
there.
It was one of the things that I intuitively felt was an important part of my creative
thinking.
My music continually reflects that.
I would say that most of my music represents my bicultural identity in many ways.
For example, I recently wrote book two of the 12 Chinese zodiac animals.
(06:24):
It's a collection of preludes and fugues.
Preludes and fugues is a Western European musical tradition that I loved.
I used to play the piano and Bach through preludes and fugues and Shostakovich's Phrase
and Fugues.
It's something that I absolutely adore.
What if I were to try to give my own take on this art form?
(06:47):
That's where I brought the cultural element into my creative thinking when I was writing
my own preludes and fugues.
That represented the confluence of the two worlds in musical form.
You see these examples of such confluences in many of my works.
Not all of them, but certainly a large portion of my works deal with that kind of theme.
(07:10):
Amazing.
Well, then all in all, what would you describe your musical style as if you could only use
three adjectives?
Oh gosh.
Okay, yeah.
See, definitely, okay, well, eclectic, expressive, and imaginative.
I don't want to pitch and hole certain descriptions to my music, but I'm the kind of person that
(07:37):
likes to try new things with every project.
In fact, that's one of the criteria that I look for in a new project is whether it's
something that will creatively interest me, whether there's some growth opportunity there,
if it's something that will open up new doors, creative doors that will expand my horizons.
Those are the things that I look for.
With that kind of criteria, it's hard for me to pinpoint what kind of music or the scriptive
(08:04):
words that I would use to characterize my music because every journey is very different.
I have no idea where it can lead to.
If you compare, for example, my first string quartet, it's like worlds apart from the
water dragon that I recently wrote.
I mean, it's completely worlds apart.
But yeah, I'd say eclectic is certainly a word that I use quite often.
(08:26):
Perfect.
Well, if you could recommend to the listeners one of your pieces that has a good introduction
to your music, what would you recommend?
Oh gosh.
Yeah, that's a difficult question.
And I'll tell you why.
Because I'm now 48 turning 49, I've been composing for over 20 odd years.
And so my music and my language has evolved so much.
(08:50):
And so when somebody asks me a question like that, it depends on which period of my life.
Oh, it's a different era.
Yeah, exactly.
If they want to hear an early work of mine, then I would say, yeah, this work definitely
best represents the music I was writing at that time.
This best represents the period when I was my 30s.
And this best represents the music that I'm currently writing.
(09:12):
To answer your question, I guess the work that best represents the music that I write
now would be my recent saxophone concerto that was premiered in November by Saskatoon
Symphony Orchestra and Timothy McAlister.
It's called Whimsical Concerto of Fancyville Birds.
And yeah, it's a 30 minute work.
(09:32):
I spent a year working, well actually more than a year, a year and a half working on
it.
And so that for me is a summation of the kind of musical thinking that best represents who
I am now.
Awesome.
So we talked a little bit about how your compositions connected you close to Asian history and Asian
culture.
(09:53):
On the flip side, what do you see as Canada's musical style, if there is one, like if you
could describe Canadian composition in say three words, what would they be?
Well, okay, now that's an excellent question.
It's a question that keeps coming up throughout my life, throughout my career, actually.
First of all, Canada is very diverse.
That's one word, very multi cultural, that's another, and it's a mosaic.
(10:16):
Okay, that's three.
And they all, I guess you could say are pretty much the same definition.
But that's highly important because the thing about Canada is that it's a country of differences,
it's a country of diversity.
And the consequence of that is that because we live in a country of so many differences,
(10:37):
we are so used to embracing and acknowledging those differences.
Now what does that mean in musical form?
It means that we can, as composers, we can write whatever we want, knowing that it could
be appreciated by a receptive audience that's used to such eclectic musical styles and traditions.
And so when someone asks, okay, well, what's a Canadian musical style?
(10:59):
Well, there is no real, in my opinion, Canadian quote unquote style.
There is a Canadian principle and that is the differences that we bring to the scene,
our unique voices that we bring to the scene, knowing that it's going to be appreciated
by a community or a nation that is used to embracing these kinds of differences.
(11:20):
So that I guess, yeah, that's how I would say it.
That's beautiful.
How has being in Canada shaped your music specifically?
Is there a piece that was really inspired by the landscapes, for example?
Absolutely.
Definitely the wide open spaces that characterizes Canada's landscape plays a huge role.
I mean, I lived in Calgary for most of my life and so being near the Rocky Mountains
(11:45):
and in the prairies as well played a huge role in defining who I am.
Then I lived in Toronto for two years and the university is like in the middle of the
city center.
So that has a different environmental, that was a different environmental experience for
me that shaped who I was.
And then I lived in Winnipeg for seven years, seven, eight years.
(12:07):
And being that it's like so isolated, it's like surrounded by nothing but fields, that
is also a unique environmental experience for myself.
And so each of these cities that I lived in played a significant role to my musical thinking
because of the environmental conditions.
Such environmental conditions also reflect the social patterns of each city.
(12:31):
I mean, Calgary and Toronto couldn't be any more different, honestly.
And so as a consequence, it brought out different sides of me that only those cities could.
But also, I love the fact that Canada is so open to multicultural differences or multiculturalism
because that allows me to be curious with experimenting with other musical traditions,
(12:55):
other musical styles, other aesthetics and find my own voice within these, I guess, concepts.
And that for me allowed me to, gives me the freedom to be, to expand my horizons to explore
as much as I can.
And also to this day and age where you can have access to music almost anywhere in the
(13:17):
world with the touch of a button.
Being a Canada gives me that chance to be able to explore cultural communities that
only a mosaic country can provide.
So that feeds into my process.
Awesome.
Is there any work that was particularly inspiring?
(13:39):
Gosh, they all did.
They all are examples.
Actually, yeah, I would stick right now, like for now, my saxophone concerto, Whimsical
Concerto of Fantasy of Birds, mainly because it was a year and a half long collaboration
with various communities, with a local indigenous community in Saskatchewan, because it dealt
(14:05):
with the theme of birds.
And so I needed to do some research on the cultural importance and significance of birds
within that community, especially given that the piece was being performed on their land.
Also I was collaborating with the Earth Environmental Science Department at the University of Saskatchewan
(14:26):
to gain some insight on the current research there is on bird migrations within the Canadian
landscape.
And so that also added to my creative thinking and that helped give rise to the great decisions
I had to make for this particular piece.
And of course, in the work is embedded my musical language, which is a confluence of
(14:51):
the Western and Eastern musical aesthetic in its own way.
But that's something that's intuitively already ingrained or intuitively a part of my musical
thinking already.
It's just not something, it's like a signature.
I just don't think about it.
It's just naturally there whenever I create a musical idea.
So fantastic.
Well, shifting gears a little bit, the music scene in Canada and around the world, especially
(15:15):
the quote unquote traditional classical scene is definitely changing.
Oh, yeah.
Have you found it challenging to adapt to these changing cultural circumstances in our
modern world, especially with electronic music and technology becoming ever so prominent?
Oh, yeah.
I don't want to say I'm having troubles.
I'd say it's just the nature of okay.
(15:40):
Well, I mean, I have to think about that, to be honest, because part of being a freelance
composer for me is that by the sheer nature of my profession, I have no choice but to
adapt to every changing situation, especially when I move from city to city, I have to be
able to adapt to the local cultural patterns, behavioral patterns, and also the values,
(16:06):
the local values of each city.
And so it's just something that is already the principle of adaptation is already something
that I'm used to.
And so when it comes to adapting to the changing circumstances of the art of our art form and
music in Canada, that's something that I am already receptive to.
(16:27):
Some people have troubles adapt.
I will acknowledge that because the technology changes so fast within like instantaneously.
I mean, I have an 11 year old daughter and she's like playing on apps and has a certain
technological advantage over me in terms of being up to date as to what's out there and
(16:48):
what she has access to.
But that being said, I think for me, I find that having that ability to adapt empowers
me as an artist to have control over how I disseminate my music.
So what do I mean by that?
It means that now I can have access to music resources online, which wasn't there 20 years
(17:11):
ago.
I have the ability to create my own website, have to share my music on various platforms,
that it be iTunes, SoundCloud, my website, YouTube.
And so I have more control over how my music, not total control, but more control in the
sense that I don't have to rely on other institutions or organizations.
(17:34):
I can now be able to put out my music in forms that more audiences can reach.
And so that is the advantage of the changing circumstances of our form, is that we are
now becoming more and more empowered and taking control over how we disseminate our music
(17:55):
and how we communicate ourselves online, especially as our world gets more and more globalized
almost every day.
It's a challenge for many, and I admit it can be very exhausting, but at the same time,
the challenge brings out creative thinking that I would not have been able to do had
(18:16):
I not been forced in that position.
It forces me to be put in a situation where I have to think creatively on how to work
around new challenges, how to work around certain hurdles that I may be faced.
A great example, actually this is a tremendous example, but 2020 March, I won't forget,
it was two days before the Juneau Awards, it was in Saskatoon, I was nominated that
(18:39):
year.
And then that morning, two days before, we all throughout Canada got the notification
that it was being canceled because of COVID.
And so I was like, oh, well, that's a downer, but I totally understand.
But that triggered a wave of cancellations throughout North America and all over the
(19:00):
world in terms of concert performances.
And so one by one, all many of my colleagues and myself, our concerts were being canceled.
And we had no idea how long this was going to last.
And so there was a period where I was thinking, oh gosh, okay, so what am I going to do?
Should I rethink my career?
How am I going to make a living?
Is that it for commissions for the next while?
(19:22):
To my surprise, a few weeks later, I was starting to get commissions from many of my colleagues
that I've collaborated with in the past.
By this point, I've built up a global network of collaborators.
And what I found is that one by one, they were going online with their performances.
(19:44):
They still needed to maintain connection with their core audiences, and they were putting
their concerts online live, but that also meant they needed new content.
And so gradually, I was getting more commissions until about two months later, I was getting
an avalanche of requests to write music.
And so I found myself in the fortunate, very fortunate position of being one of the few
(20:09):
people that benefited from the pandemic.
And so this was one of those situations where there was a massive challenge that I was being
faced.
The nature of the concert classical world changed practically.
But due to my, I guess, the know how and the relationships that I've built along the way,
I was able to pivot and find my way around that challenge to continue what I did.
(20:34):
And so I found myself incredibly busy during the two year period of the pandemic, more
so than ever before.
So that was just one example where I had no choice but to adapt to the situation, but
it was a smooth adaptation because of the professional relationships that I had built
up to that point.
So that's just one example.
(20:55):
And then there are many other examples that I could cite, but that was definitely one
example that really stuck in my mind, given the circumstances that I would, I mean, at
the time, if you think about it, if I was told 20 years ago, you know, you're going
to be in a position where you're going to be so busy while the world shuts down.
(21:15):
I would never have believed it.
I would have been, yeah, you're crazy.
I'm like a composer.
Come on, really?
So it's almost as if it's like being told that you won the lottery.
I mean, come on, really?
So those are just, that's just one example.
And I advise a lot of students to try to think outside the box, get used to thinking outside
(21:38):
the box and take a risk.
You never know what's going to, what could you could benefit from if you just step outside
the norm and expand your, at your horizons on what is possible.
And so by doing that, it's not only, how do I put this?
It not only opens up new doors of opportunities, it also puts you in a situation where you
(22:03):
get used to thinking about taking risks.
You get start to get comfortable with that little bit of fear that comes along with taking
those risks.
And by having that fear actually helps because that fear motivates, at least for me, it motivates
me to be that much more focused on doing the best job I can.
It's much like how, say, like for students, the equivalent would be preparing for our
(22:28):
final exam.
There's that element of fear that motivates them to try to do their best.
And so it's that, yeah.
And so it's a matter of just getting used to that fear, but using it as an ally to bring
out the best in you.
So when it comes to adaptation, I think that was, that is the one thing that I gained throughout
(22:49):
my years as a freelance composer is getting used to being, to managing that fear in a
healthy way to get me through any challenges that I may be faced.
Some people try to avoid that fear altogether.
They're just, they can't handle the fear.
So they try to create these situations that makes them comfortable just to avoid that
(23:11):
fear.
For me, I find that, well, okay, yeah, I understand that.
You don't want to stress yourself out.
But at the same time, a lot of these issues, they're going to be there no matter what.
So you may as well try to find a way to sit comfortably with that fear and face those
challenges head on in a healthy way.
So that's an amazing way to end off with this message of using your fear as a motivator
(23:34):
or intrinsic motivation as a springboard for your...
Let me tell you the story of how that made me shift my thing.
It was near the tail end of my doctoral program.
And I was freaking out because I didn't know what I was going to do after I graduated.
(23:54):
I mean, I didn't know what my career was going to take me.
And after that point, I didn't know what to do.
And so I was getting pretty scared.
I remember I was in my apartment in Los Angeles and thinking, okay, you know what?
I've got a few hundred dollars in my bank account.
If I allocated some money to grocery shopping and if I get a job doing this and this, I
(24:14):
think I should be able to manage.
But then I realized, okay, what is motivating me to do this?
What motivating me is that I was terrified.
I was scared.
I was just trying to create a situation to manage the fear, to almost like try to deny
that fear or avoid that fear.
And I said to myself, oh man, Vince, you're being such a coward.
(24:35):
Okay, this is a moment where it's do or sink or swim.
And so you better pull yourself by the bootstraps and really start taking what you do seriously
or else that's it.
And so this is what I did.
No joke.
Instead of creating a safe situation for myself, I decided to my lock away for two months and
(25:01):
just focus on trying to write the best music I possibly could.
Because at that moment, I thought I was cornered.
I had nowhere else to go.
I had no out.
It was like pretty much the end of the line for me.
And so I used that fear, that terrifying fear, to pour my heart out as if my life depended
on it.
And I tell you what, during those two months, I wrote the best music I possibly could.
(25:27):
And it was at the end of those two months where I started winning prizes and the phone
started to ring for commissions.
And that was when I realized, okay, this is a turning point for me.
I can't run away from these fears.
I can't run away from these challenges throughout my life.
There are times where I'm going to have to face it and use that fear to motivate myself
(25:49):
to do the best job I can.
And that will be the only time where, well, not I shouldn't say the only time, but those
are the times that I will really learn from the experience, learn what I'm made of, and
see what can be done when I'm pushed to the limits.
And since then, I've grown so accustomed to facing these kinds of challenges in similar
(26:12):
ways.
Now, granted, there are some fears where are overwhelming.
And that's when I say to myself, okay, I need to step back.
This is too much for me.
Okay.
Yeah, there is a limit.
There is a limit.
But I know what those limits are.
That's the point that I'm making is that I felt that from that experience, I learned
(26:33):
what my limit was.
I learned what I was able to do once I pushed myself to that limit, carrying that fear with
me.
And since then, I've been carrying that, I guess, that litmus test with everything I
do.
And since then, it's been a very, very amusing and exciting ride.
(26:59):
Absolutely incredible.
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
I really appreciated hearing all of your insights and journey as a composer.
And of course, for the motivational speech at the end, which is very relatable to everybody.
Oh, yeah.
It's applicable to any field.
(27:21):
Oh, yeah, I think so.
And also, I just want to say for young composers, I do want to just one thing that they always
fear, I mean, fear is a commonality.
And I get that.
But the one thing I try to tell them, and this is important, is that look, no two careers
are the same.
(27:41):
So stop seeing everything as a competition.
Just focus on developing your intuitions and trusting your instincts, and things will smooth
out for yourself.
One, other people's failures or successes is not going to impact one's own development.
So focus on what's best for yourself.
(28:01):
And the other advice I give is to always try to think like an emerging artist.
Always.
I mean, I'm turning 49, but I consider myself a 49-year-old emerging composer.
And by doing that, you maintain that youthful awesome, the curiosity and sense of wonder
with every project you take on.
And that is important.
So that's my advice.
(28:23):
Beautiful.
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