Eps. #81 HBOMax Cancelled RapSh!t, SNL & Lorne Michaels' Replacement, Beef Between Michael Jordan and Jerry Krause, and American Fiction

In this episode Chad opens up about his feelings about RapSh!t being cancelled, SNL humor, Lorne Michaels,  American Fiction, and the beef between Michael Jordan and Jerry Krause.

Tune in Tuesdays and Thursdays at 12PM ET to watch the show live on Youtube. Follow @chadsand on Instagram and subscribe to the Nothing But Anarchy Youtube channel for full interviews and more anarchy!

Executive Produced by: Chad Sanders
Produced by: Morgan Williams

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Okay, welcome to the man anarchy.
I'm Chad Sanders.
We got a bunch of stuff to talkabout today.
Also, we had a what I thoughtwas a very good show on Thursday
and we're going to take a cuefrom that show, which is that I
took a half step away from thescript, the numbers, the script

(00:28):
by the script.
But I just mean, like, we havethis docket here that has if
you're listening on podcast youcan't see, but if you're here on
YouTube live you can see.
It's like about like this long.
It's kind of an outline thatjust has.
You know, here it's a docket.
Here's the major bullets,here's what we're going to talk
about, et cetera, et cetera, etcetera.
And I find it useful to have asa backbone to the show just in

(00:50):
case it's like, okay, you'vegone on a tangent, now bring it
back and find your way to thenext thing.
But what feels more important,more pressing for when we do
this show, is that I can gowhere I actually feel something.
I can go where I actually feela burning point of view,

(01:11):
curiosity, a story that I needto tell, something I'm trying to
put together in my head, andthere's a few of those today.
So we're going to get rightinto them.
Last week on Thursday, we didthe show.
I walk out, I go to thebathroom and, as one does in the
bathroom, whip out my phone andI have a text there from my
friend, leon, who is a Hollywoodwriter and also one of my best

(01:35):
friends from ever or fromcollege, but like very, very
close friend you guys have heardme talk about him he's called
into the show, et cetera, gottext from Leon and it's a press
release that says that rap shit,which is a HBO max show that I
wrote for a couple of years ago,has been canceled.
And after two seasons it's beencanceled.

(01:58):
And blah, blah, blah.
And there's this silly ass likePR, scripted you know
announcement from HBO that saysit's so corny Like I can just
see the face of the person whowrote it Blonde, white woman, no
doubt and it says like we'regoing to miss, we're going to so
much miss seducing and schemingwith Shawna, and you know we

(02:20):
can't.
We're going to have that songplaying in our heads forever.
We wouldn't have it any other.
It's like just like thecorniest, most ridiculous shit
in the world.
But the show's canceled.
And I said I was going to listout the things we've been
talking about, but fuck, I'mjust going to start talking
because we're here.
By the way, live show WashingtonDC, february 8th that's a
Thursday Shanklin Hall is thevenue.

(02:42):
7 o'clock doors open 730tickets.
Go buy your ticket now atShanklin Hallcom or on my
Instagram at the link in my bio.
So anyway, rap shit getscanceled, as it did weeks ago,
but as it was announced onThursday and as I find out as a
civilian who was let's call it aspade, who was, however you
want to say it nicer mean firedis probably the meanest way to

(03:04):
say it Let go, not brought back,parted way, went separate ways,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
That is my relationship to rapshit.
I wrote on season one, wrotethere for the whole season with
the other writers.
I, toward the end of thewriters room, had many moments
where my book had just come out.
It's 2021.

(03:24):
My book had come out in likeFebruary.
I'm writing on this show in Idon't know summer and I'm hot at
that point in time, like peoplewant me to come speak at things
and they're willing to pay meto do so, and so I am
contractually bound to write onthis show and be in this writers
room.
But it occurs to me some monthsinto writing on the show that I

(03:49):
am not as much as I am probably, you know, one of the more
crafted voices in the room,because I'm like my own thing
outside of screenwriting.
I'm not like one of the bossesin the room and I knew that
coming in.
But I did not know the hierarchyof a writers room was such that
, like the showrunner, thecreator, the executive producer,

(04:11):
they're all up there.
Then there's like someproducing writers who are like
in here, and then there's staffwriters and then there's, like
you know, writers, assistantsand stuff like that.
There's a very hierarchicalhierarchy and I realized at some
point during the process ofthis that even though I keep
speaking up and having a pointof view and thinking, I see

(04:32):
things that I want the story tobe in, the characters to be
whatever.
Of course this is acollaborative process, but also
I am not.
I'm not up there in thehierarchy.
So I'm having to make decisionsevery day between, okay, do I
sacrifice going and speaking andpromoting my book for my job
which is here on Wrapshit, or doI go do my thing and go promote

(04:54):
my book and let the cards fallwhere they may, and so I'm
imagining that at some pointduring this process, the
showrunner, the other writers,the producers probably came to
realize or notice Chad is alittle bit one foot in, one foot
out here and I think, to behonest, I think that was
probably fine with them becauseI did not matter that much in

(05:17):
the grand scheme of the room.
So I think I made the rightdecision, which was to go
promote my book.
All right, fast forward showcomes out.
I got to write an episode.
I got to be in the show for twoseconds.
That was really cool for me.
I did a screening, I did awatch party.
Morgatron came and worked atthe watch party and it was
really fun, and budget peopleyou know in New York and
Brooklyn came out and we did aQ&A afterward and it was cool.

(05:38):
It was like I got to feel likea part of the Wrapshit
experience, even though most ofthe Wrapshit experience was
occurring in Los Angeles, whereall the writers live besides me,
and maybe one or two others inMiami, which is where most of
the show was shot, except for myepisode which was shot in New
York, and it was nice to be ableto feel as much as I didn't

(06:02):
feel like a part of the inner,inner circle of that group.
It was nice to be able to feellike a part of that for that,
for that week when my episodewas coming out and we did the
screening and all that Fastforward.
Actually, that night somebodysaid to me hey, somebody who I
worked with at the time said tome hey, I know that they are

(06:25):
getting ready to ramp thewriters room back up for season
two.
Have you talked to anybody?
And I say no, I honestly Ihaven't.
I hadn't heard anything.
I was just assuming that theywere waiting to see if it got
renewed, etc.
Blah, blah, blah.
So I wait for a little bit.
A few weeks go by, a few weeksgo by, maybe, maybe.
Then a month goes by, haven'theard anything.
And finally I get on the phonewith one of my agents and she

(06:48):
says hey, we're looking atstaffing you for another show.
Are you interested in this oryou're not?
Whatever, whatever.
And the truth is and I thinkI've been pretty honest about
this for the last couple yearslike staffing on a TV show is
not that interesting to me, likeit's just it is not a glamorous
or fun or exciting job.
It's just not.
I'm sorry if that killssomebody's dream.
Maybe it will be for you, butfor me it's like working at an

(07:13):
assembly lot for cars but foryour creativity.
And my agent is asking me aboutif I want to staff somewhere.
I don't.
But then I'm like, wait asecond.
I already had a job, likewhat's up with that thing?
And I asked her and she says oh, I thought they would have
reached out to you.
They let us know a couple daysago that they will not be asking

(07:35):
you to come back to rap shit.
And I feel two things at oncewhich is actually something that
I'm carrying right now, aboutsomething completely different.
I feel two things at once.
I feel the giant, this giantsigh and wash over of relief,
like, oh, wow, well, I'm glad Iwon't have to do that again.

(07:55):
And I also feel, of course,some level of rejection, failure
, once again, not being a partof the club.
You know, oh, maybe I wasn'tthis enough to be a part of that
, to be a part of that roomagain.
Maybe I wasn't Fuck it Blackenough, funny enough, not funny

(08:20):
enough.
Maybe they weren't loving this,like maybe I was too fucking
straight.
You know what I mean.
Like not crime your river,right, but like maybe I was any
one of these things.
Why are you smirking, morgan?
You like this.
I told you I was going to havea new angle here, and the reason
why I have a new angle isbecause this angle is the truth,

(08:41):
because I got permission totell the truth over the weekend.
But I'm going to get to that.
Maybe I'm too this, maybe I'mtoo that, maybe whatever.
Maybe I didn't kick you enough,maybe I didn't like know the
slang from Twitter hard enough,maybe I don't, maybe I'm not on
the internet enough, like, maybeI just think some shit is not

(09:01):
funny that y'all think is funny.
And I ultimately do think thatthose are the things.
That were the things.
Right, it was you, just not.
And when I say not black enough,I, jesus Christ, I don't mean
actually black, I mean Twitterblack.
Maybe I wasn't black enough,because get the fuck out of here
.
So now I'm getting angry.

(09:23):
I started getting angry when Isaw your smirk.
I don't know why.
It's fine, it's fine.
But someone the same person whogave me permission to tell the
truth also told me she lovesthis show.
Because I get angry, but I'mnot bitter, and I was like that
is exactly the truth.
Like because I'm not bitter, Ididn't walk out of there like oh

(09:45):
man, like fuck these niggas,they didn't want me back.
Like, oh, they think I'm not.
Whatever they think it's likemaybe I'm not part of the club.
Of course I was bitching aboutit, of course I was a little
salty, but like, I thinkeverything I did thereafter was
in support of, and I hope thatthis goes well for them.
I texted immediately theshowrunner and said, though I
had not heard from this person.

(10:05):
I said, hey, like thank you somuch for this opportunity.
It was dope to work with you,blah, blah, blah.
And I wasn't being fake, Imeant that I needed that.
I needed that opportunity.
That was a part of a momentumthat was growing for me.
That gave me another experienceto see things, see how things
work, see what I want to do, seewhat I don't want to do Be a

(10:27):
part of a show on a network.
I'm a fucking HBO stand Like Iwatch H.
I'm watching Boardwalk Empirefor the third or fourth time.
I've watched Game of Thrones 10to 12 times.
I've watched the Sopranos 10 to12 times.
Like I'm a stand and I got towork for the network that I've
always admired since I was ateenager Hard knocks, whatever

(10:49):
but I was a go.
So I start down.
You know I'm going down thisother path and I'm watching out
of the corner of my eye, notintentionally, but just like
here and there.
You know what I mean.
Nina works for rap shit.
So I still have, like I stillhave a connection to someone
who's a part of that circle,even though for the most part I

(11:11):
haven't really heard fromanybody else over there, except
that Isa came on direct deposit,which again I am very grateful
for.
I think that her story and hername were very important to that
project.
So I'm just telling the truthhere.
I'm going down this path.
That show goes and ramps up foranother season.
They bring some new writersback, they bring a writer in to

(11:32):
replace me and they go and makethe show.
They make a second season.
I have not watched any of thesecond season, but I still know
enough from the marketing, fromthe Instagram handles, from just
a little bitty blips ofinformation that I get by way of
my corner of the internet, thatthe show is happening, but I'm
not hearing very much of aconversation about the show,

(11:56):
which surprised me, because whenI wrote on the show, I felt
like it.
Maybe it was because I wascreating that conversation
around myself, but I felt like Iwas getting a lot of you know
just people telling me what theythought about the show and I
didn't tell people I wasn'twriting on season two for the
most part, only close friendsand colleagues, but like I

(12:17):
didn't hear nothing.
So I was like, great, I don'thave to think about this thing
all the time that I was once apart.
Because let me tell you allsomething this is something to
know about me because I posted astory a few days ago that said
once as soon as I heard about it, I want, I wanted to get this
message out as quickly aspossible, which is you do not
need to console me about rapshit.

(12:38):
I don't work there, no more.
I didn't work there for over ayear.
I'm fine, it's cool.
You know thoughts and prayers,and I really meant that because
and we're going to come back tothis later when we talk about
Michael Jordan and Jerry Krauss,like when it is over between me
and some sort of entity as such.

(13:01):
It's so.
It is so much over.
I will treat that thing asthough it never existed, unless
I have a use for it.
Okay, I was never going to turnon another episode of rap shit.
Not because I'm bitter, butbecause I am.
I am a focused person, like Iam.
I have so much to pay attentionto that I cannot even give one

(13:25):
little ounce of something to payattention to that I do not care
about and that I'm not a partof.
That's how I feel about it.
Let's get to the point on thisshow, maybe a month ago, maybe
two months ago, I can't rememberexactly as this, while season
two of this show was on.
Where I'm going with this, bythe way, is like I I woke up

(13:47):
yesterday with a deeper level offaith that I'm allowed to be
honest.
Okay, on this show, in my lifein general, a lot of what stops
me from being all the way real,as real as I can I'm not real,
as real as I really want to beis fear.
Fear that I'm going to set offthe wrong person and they are

(14:09):
going to shut me down, humiliateme, attack me, curse me out,
whatever.
A couple months ago, on thisshow, I said which I would I
stand on, which is that if LenaWaithe made rap shit and not
Issa Rae, people would look atthat show completely differently

(14:29):
.
And I pretty much just left itthere.
I didn't go much further thanthat.
I just said the thing because Ithink anybody who can hear
clearly, who knows how to followa story, understood the dog
whistle of what I was saying,which is like if Lena Waithe
made that show, people wouldcall it every order of
caricaturizing us hyperbolic,fake, unsophisticated, thin

(14:53):
hollow, two dimensional, etc.
That's what I was trying to say.
And that's because of brandsestablished by two different
creators.
For all the different reasonsthat a brand is established and
all the different ways a brandis established.
Okay, issa's thought of one way, lena Waithe's thought of
another way, and depending onwho you ask, those two, those
two things are thought ofdifferently.
But I'm saying within my cornerof, you know, black, creative

(15:18):
leaning, intellectualizingpeople.
That's sort of how those twopeople are looked at and that's
how Lena Waithe's work mighthave been considered.
Sorry, issa Reyes' work mighthave been considered had she
been Lena Waithe.
Is it fair not for me to say, isit honest not for me to say I
have big love for Lena Waithe,who has never faked on me, not
one single time in this industry, and I've said that a bunch of

(15:40):
times on here.
So I'm leaving my opinion ontheir work out of this for now.
The point is just that that'show those two brands are
conceived of within specificpockets of culture.
I said that on the show and Istopped there because I felt
that already I had walked alittle bit past the line of

(16:01):
where it's safe to be honestabout this thing that you're a
part of, within which you haveactual human relationships with
these people.
Okay, like they can text you,they can call you, they, like
they kind of have a sense forwho you are and there could be
backlash.

(16:24):
That reel goes up does prettywell.
I think there was someconversation in the comments and
people shared it and it waslike I think some people who
have, who are willing to usetheir brains and who are willing
to keep it a stack were likethat's true, but I don't pay
much attention to like.
I kind of like pull my head outas soon as these things go out.
I watch the numbers but I pullmy head out of the conversation

(16:47):
around them because I don't wantto get too mired or mirrored.
How do you pronounce that word?
I don't want to get stuck inthe mud with it.
So maybe two weeks ago, aidaOsman, who is the star of
Rapshit, sends me a directmessage and she says in so many
words I've been seeing yourclips from your podcast.

(17:10):
Can we have a conversationabout Rapshit for real?
Lol.
And I respond immediately.
She sends me a number, I call,I text, I'm like I'm here for it
.
As much as I am somebody whocan be afraid of having to carry

(17:33):
other people's feelings andemotions, I will show up for it
quickly if I know that that'swhat's in front of me.
So I'm here for it.
I said the thing, I put it onthe internet.
This is a person I actuallyknow and if she wants to talk
about it, let's talk about it.
And didn't hear back from herfor a couple of days, didn't
hear back from her for about aweek and a half, maybe two weeks

(17:55):
, and I'm like, okay, I guessthis just went away.
I mean, maybe in a moment shewas feeling angry, or she was
feeling poorly received, or shewas feeling like I was trying to
troll, or like rock the boatfor something, or maybe she just
thought I was being a weeniebut like, fuck it, maybe she got
over it, maybe she's not, maybeshe don't even want to talk
about it.
Saturday night I'm out at ahookah bar.

(18:15):
Music is blasting there with acouple folks.
They're having drinks.
I'm having hookah, having agood night, and 11 30 PM I get a
phone call.
It's Aida.
I don't pick it up, I missedthe call.
I look at my phone.
It's a missed call there.
Call right back music.
I'm like, hey, I'm gonna callyou back after I get out of here

(18:37):
.
Yada, yada, yada.
Don't get her that night, gether the next day.
And we have a 30 minuteconversation and I am expecting
for that conversation to beabout how I'm wrong about rap
shit.
I'm bitter because I got let go.

(18:59):
I'm this, I'm that.
You know that's what I'mexpecting because, like people
and there are it is an intimaterelationship.
It's like you say somethingabout black magic.
You know, even if I know it'strue, the first thing I'm gonna
feel is hurt.
The first thing I'm gonna feelis sensitivity.

(19:21):
The first thing I'm gonna beI'm gonna feel inclined to
defend it.
It's like if you talk aboutsomebody's kid, even if you know
it's true about the kid, likethey're still gonna try to
protect the kid and explain tothemselves and someone else like
why it's that way and why itwas intentional.
So I'm expecting possibly theferocity of a thousand sons.
And let me be clear Aida is likea genius level person.

(19:43):
I'll stop right there for now.
She's a genius level person.
She's super smart.
She's written on several TVshows.
She's written for Big Mouth.
She's the star of rap shit.
She wrote on rap shit.
She's 27 years old.
She was 24 years old when westarted this thing.
Like, she is a prodigy.
As far as I see her, I thinkshe is going to be one of these
people working at an extremelyhigh level in Hollywood for the

(20:04):
next 50 years, if that's whatshe chose, chooses and I think
she's about to burn my fuckingeyebrows off for what I have
said and what she says is notthat okay.
And I will not say what shesays over those next 30 minutes,
because that is.
I asked her if I could recount.
I asked her if she'd come onthe show.

(20:26):
I asked her if she and what Ihave committed to is to saying
that, like she's good, she'sworking on her own stuff.
Now Show's canceled, you knowwhatever, but her point of view
on my point of view was Ilistened to your.
This is her saying this I likeyour show, I like how you talk.
Because you are, you can getmad, but not bitter.

(20:48):
I think you are one of the lastshe says this and I don't
actually even feel this wayabout myself.
But she says I think you're oneof the last radical voices we
have left.
That's how she puts it.
I don't think of myself as aradical voice.
I'm actually very scared of theword radical.
It's scary for black people.
And she does not try to undo anyof the things that I have said
about the show and she feelsquite surprised that I would

(21:11):
even be worried that she wouldhave wanted to undo the things
that I thought about the show.
In fact, she says in so manywords use your voice, keep using
your voice, Keep doing yourthing.
The truth is the truth, one wayor the other.
Your honesty is your honesty,one way or the other.
Like, do what you do.
And just to put a pin on thatparticular conversation, like

(21:34):
what I walked out from thatconversation was what I walked
out with was fuel.
I walked out feeling you justfaced somebody, and by face I
just mean like you spoke to them, like you didn't avoid them.
You talked to someone who couldhave felt undermined, hurt,

(21:55):
pricked, poked at by somethingthat you said that was honest,
and they didn't try to smack youaround for that thing.
In fact, they said, like doubledown, keep doing your shit,
like go, like go harder, we needthis, like we need this, and so
where I'll land it is.
This is what I actually thinkabout rap shit in Iida.

(22:18):
I think the show's writing andtone and texture I think it's
going to be very easy for somepeople to look at that show and
say, ooh, the star of that showfailed the show, and I think
it's the other way around.
I think Iida was built to do asmart, funny, creative, nuanced,

(22:43):
subversive show like Atlanta,and I think and I'll say we, the
broader, we undermined herpotential with a very thin
concept, with very, very thinwriting, with very, very thin
characters, very thininteractions, like I don't think

(23:05):
the show said anythinginteresting or new or unique or
special about our experiencesand that's a failure I share.
So recipes, rap shit.
Okay, we've done a lot ofcoverage and conversations about
blacks lately, so let's talkabout white people now.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
That's true, you killed me with blacks.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Blacks.
Now we're going to talk aboutwhites.
So yesterday I was listening toa podcast called the Town.
I told you I listened to amillion gazillion podcasts.
This podcast is called the Town.
It is hosted by a guy namedMatt Bell.
Is it Belloni Bellonini?

Speaker 2 (23:51):
Bellon, yeah, Belloni it's either Belloni or Bellini.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Sorry, matt, but he is, I think, an excellent
industry critic and journalistaround Hollywood entertainment.
He tells you what's going on ata really high level, but also
in the details.
He is informed.
His show is on the ringer.
He has guests on who often havereally really deep analysis on

(24:15):
what's happening with theindustry trends in Hollywood,
and yesterday I was listening tohim have a conversation about
the future of Saturday NightLive and specifically the
50-year anniversary of SaturdayNight Live is coming up next
year and the creator andexecutive producer and larger

(24:38):
than life figure who residesover Saturday Night Live, lorne
Michaels.
He is in his 80s and he isplanning on his he's making his
succession plan for SaturdayNight Live.
This is all as reported byMatthew Belloni or Belloni.
Whichever one it is.
We'll get it right in the real.

(24:59):
I do think the real will comefrom this.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
He's 79.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
He's 79.
I'm sorry he's turning 80 iswhat Matthew Belloni says.
So that means he started SNL inhis probably when he was 30,
which is crazy and it has lastednow for 50 years.
He needs a succession plan.
Saturday Night Live how do wefeel?

(25:22):
First, let me give you apersonal anecdote.
I might have shared it before,but if you knew this, you all
just say it again.
About five, six years ago I wasmaybe a year or two into this
journey and I was living inBed-Stuy and I was just kind of
getting my way, my bearings,around this industry and getting
to know people and meet people.

(25:42):
And a big thing for me at thatpoint in time was just I just
wanted to meet famous people,and I don't just mean
specifically famous people, butpeople who seem to have power in
the industry.
My point of view on myself atthat time I guess it was sort of
I think it was somewhat trueand then also naive in its own

(26:05):
way was just if you just put mein the room with someone, if you
just get me lunch with someoneor coffee with someone, I will
be able to sell them on me.
And there is truth to that.
Like I am, I can be a strongsalesman, I am a convincing
person.
Oftentimes that's because I amselling you something that's

(26:28):
actually real, like somethingthat I either have actually done
or believe in.
But at that time I hadn't doneshit, so all I could do was sell
people on what I believed inand what I thought I could do.
And I had this one TV pilotthat I had been traipsing around
with.
But I also had the right cosign.
I had Spike Lee's cosign.
So my manager, one night it'sprobably one o'clock in the

(26:54):
morning, I'm in the Lower EastSide, maybe it's like 1.30.
And I'm out on a date and hesays, hey, I'm at the SNL after
party Idris Elba just hosted andwe're here with Lorne Michaels.
Come pull up.
Have I told this story already?
I think you have, and this wasa sign to me.

(27:17):
This is a this as I think backon it.
This was a signal to me as I,as Chad, saying Chad, when you
think, when you like, if youwant to know who you are, look
at some moments like this thisis who you are, chad.
I was having a really good timeon the date.
It was going well and it wasn'tlike a super daty-ass date.

(27:41):
It wasn't like fancy, it wasn'tyou know, posh, it wasn't like.
It wasn't like one of thoselike interview dates where two
people sit across from eachother at dinner and it's like
you know.
So what do you?
I don't know.
What do you want from life?
It wasn't like that, it was just, it was just a vibe, it was
just good, it was fun.
We were at a bar, we werekicking it.
I was attracted to this person,it was a good night, it was

(28:01):
1.30, whatever.
So I replied something like OK,bet, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a come
I'm a pull up, like I was goingto go take the train or jumping
to Uber and ride over to the S&Oafter party.
And 20 minutes go by, 30minutes go by.
I keep texting like yeah, I'mabout to be there, I'm about to
be there and I had alreadydecided in my head, even though

(28:22):
I wasn't willing to accept it,that like I don't care more to
meet Idris Elba and LorneMichaels than I do to just spin
the rest of this night with thisone person who, by the way, I
never went on another date withever.
Ok, I have not even seen thatwoman another time since that
one night that we kicked it andI wouldn't trade it.

(28:43):
Like I'm going to give a fuckabout Lorne Michaels.
Like this is like.
This is what honesty is.
Like I don't care, I reallydon't care, I really, really,
really don't care to go sit infront of another old white guy.
I just don't care and like Iwish I could just love that

(29:05):
person who was my 29-year-oldself.
Like I wish I had made myselfnow, because it's not always
like that easy for me to acceptthat thing about myself.
Sometimes it makes me think,damn, chad, like you're never
going to be, you're never goingto have all the things that you
want in life, because you willnot make yourself go actually

(29:28):
give a fuck about Lorne Michaels, like it's never going to
happen, because you will stay onthat date or you will stay at
your boy's house playing Maddenor you will stay at home with
Penny watching a movie becauseyou're having a good time with
yourself.
And who cares about LorneMichaels?
Who the fuck cares?
But a part of why it's who thefuck cares.

(29:49):
You're scared of this.
Are you scared of this?
No, no, no, but you're scared ofit for yourself a little,
because you live in New York andyou work in.
You work in NBC.
Are you scared of this?

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Am I scared of what you're saying?

Speaker 1 (29:58):
The concept.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
No, but I do.
But do you want to finish?
No, tell me, I was saying, butI feel like it's interesting
because if you had gone, it'snot even guaranteed that
anything really great could havehappened, which I feel, like
some people think, but there'smaybe a 30% chance something

(30:23):
amazing would have happened.
You would have connected withsomeone and your whole life
would be different.
But there's a greater chancethat you would have gone and
just like nothing would havehappened.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Like there's a magical thinkingthat we do that is like we are
one Lorne Michaels after party,away from being Michael Che or
being Tina Fey or whatever.
And you, it's astute because,like, I think, rarely in the

(30:52):
moment are we actually doingthat math that the printed
signatures are so small.
But it really just came down toin that moment and I remember
this being the beginning of, ifI'm honest, my, probably my
manager at the time and my teambeing like, oh, like this person
Is going to require sort of a,a Bespoke sort of management

(31:16):
style, like a you like adifferent sort of management
style that, quite honestly, Idon't think they have time for.
For somebody like me, like,maybe, if I'm the rock, you have
time to like be all funky abouthow you manage the person, but
like, for me, I'm not at thatsize, I'm not at that level.
It's just like, well, we'regonna try our best, we'll try to
put him in the right rooms, butlike, if he, if he is so

(31:37):
whatever, that he doesn't justshow up, when we tell him show
up, then like onto the next one.
You know what I mean.
Even if we keep him as a client.
It's on to the next one inthought, it's on to the next one
in action, motion, whatever.
Now, all that was just a givenanecdote about how I actually
feel about look and like.
The person represents the brandokay.
So, lord Michaels, part of whyI don't I know it is supposed to

(32:01):
be the New York writers dreamto write for or be on SNL.
I know that that's supposed tobe the case.
I'm 35, though, okay, by thetime I was like really watching
adult television, snl wasalready Deeply into losing its
sparkle as something that isimportant.
I know it's listen if you're inNew York, if you're in Los

(32:22):
Angeles.
I know you guys still thinkSaturday Night Live is important
.
I know somebody is.
I know some people who listento this show, who are sitting
there being like, oh, chatdoesn't know SNL, it's so
important.
I have the ratings in front ofme.
Morgan gave them to me.
The podcast host says on thepodcast well, you know SNL's
ratings have fallen, fallen,fallen, but like it still does.

(32:42):
Really great on socials.
Just great on socials becausepeople like seeing famous people
.
Just great on socials Becausepeople want to look at Jacob L
Erdie.
Not, they want to look atSydney Sweeney, it's not because
it's SNL, it's because, like,they're doing the same thing
that other brands do.
They're hiring influencers tomake their shit blow up on
TikTok.
Like that's not SNL Specific.

(33:05):
That has nothing to do with theright here that the with the
writing or the fucking brand ofSNL.
Like that's famous people.
We love looking at famouspeople.
Jacob L Erdie thinks he needsto go to SNL to promote his
movie.
Snl needs Jacob L Erdie topromote SNL.
Okay, but here's the real point.
Um, I'm gonna tell you all thenames of.
There used to be a blog calledstuff people, white people, like

(33:25):
y'all familiar with that.
We've talked about that.
Have you heard of that?
No, yeah, I remember.
I remember that.
Yeah, it's been a while since Iheard about it.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
It's been a while, but I never okay.
So all right, another quickanecdote.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
I think we're doing something good here, so I'm just
giving clear out.
Let me just do this, let mejust give me the lane.
Okay, morey, can I have a clearout?
Okay, thank you, thank you, soall right.
When I worked at Google like2013, 2012, no, 2011, because I
was working in Mountain View.
This is my first year at Google.

(33:55):
Okay, so I am full of GoogleKool-Aid.
At this point in time, I thinkthat the whiter and Mousier I
can make myself, the better mylife will be.
The more I can resemble a Likein spirit, the more I can
resemble like a scrawny littlewhite guy with a wrinkled

(34:15):
t-shirt on and khaki shorts, thebetter my life will be.
That's what I see around me atGoogle.
That's what the culture ofSilicon Valley is telling me.
It's a good thing.
That's what the culture ofSilicon Valley is telling me.
It's telling me that thepinnacle of man is a very small,
weak white boy who cannot playsports and is probably today, 10

(34:36):
years later, and an Incellthat's what they're telling me
is the dopest shit ever.
So I'm trying to be like thatand to make it all so much worse
, a Extremely smug White boy wholooks just like that comes to
Google one day.
We all sit like it's a hugeConference room, probably 300

(34:56):
people come to watch him speak.
He walks up to the podium andhe's like so proud of his blog
that has blown up.
This is what we there to do.
We're better listen to amotherfucker talk about his
goddamn blog and the blog iscalled Stuff white people like.
He is the writer of this blogand it's and it is a.

(35:19):
The joke is supposed to be thatit is poking fun of, or
ironically Speaking to, thingsthat white people life stuff
like Patagonia vest, stuff likenew balance shoes, stuff like
different types of foods thatare bland, and, of course,
naturally Throughout this blog,as is always the case when white

(35:40):
people think they're makingjokes that are self-aware, which
is 90% of the SNL experience.
Of course, black people got toget smacked around throughout
the entire experience.
Cultural appropriation is oneof the things named that white
that.
That is something.
That stuff that white peoplelike, like because, of course,
right, that's that's supposed tobe.

(36:02):
The irony is it's like Look howfunny and look how annoying.
We are white people, but we'resaying it about ourselves.
So it's funny.
Right, it's not how funny works, but I'll get to that.
Snl was probably on that blog,even though I can't confirm or
deny that it was, and If thatblog still existed, it might be

(36:26):
defunct.
Now I expect that the movieAmerican fiction would also be
on that blog start with SNL.
Snl is white funny and I wasthinking about white funny
yesterday and I'm.
This is not.
I Will sit in a room withpeople and watch SNL and laugh I
will.
I will sit in a room and watcha Jimmy Kimmel you know

(36:49):
monologue and laugh sometimes.
Or Seth Meyers, or.
But these are White peoplefunny things.
White people funny.
Starts at your chest and goesup like that's there that sort
of humor and I'm labeling itwhite people humor.
But not all white people likethis.
Like Rick, your Jervais isfunny.

(37:09):
Shit is all up and down in here, it's everywhere.
It's like goes through yourwhole body.
It accesses all parts of truthand lies and etc.
Etc.
But like fun.
The funny and funny is thatthings are true and if you are
not able to Access certainthings that are true because
they implicate you, that leavesoff a whole lot of area for

(37:30):
funny.
There are a lot of white comicswho cannot be deeply funny
because you can't get all theway true, because every time you
get all the way true, you endup talking about Really horrific
things that white people havedone.
You don't have access to all ofit.
You can't both like.
You can't really make too manyslave jokes as a white person,

(37:53):
and that leaves off a lot ofroom for funny, because that's
where the truth is at.
Snl is like McDonald's funny.
It's just like.
It's like, keep it up here, nottoo spooky.
They try a lot of politicalsketches and, naturally, as we
have gotten a million otherAreas to access funny in our
lives from Twitter, fromFacebook, instagram, tick tock

(38:15):
we have funny people abound.
There's so much.
I laugh so much harder at thememe of the, of the cat at the
table with sunglasses on.
I laugh so much harder at I'veseen probably 50 versions of
that meme.
I laugh so much harder and moreviscerally and deeply for my
gut than I ever laugh at afucking Seth Meyers monologue or

(38:36):
an SNL sketch.
And SNL has a ratings problem,as do most Legacy shows on
Linear cable.
That's what SNL is.
It is 50 years old and it islooking to transition into the
next 50 years of its, of itsshit, and it's going to try to

(38:58):
continue to spin out the samebrand of Chest up white people
funny, not accessing the wholedeep layers of funniness.
Funny To give us the next 50years.
And I know that because thenames that are coming up for the
job Are Seth Meyers, tina Fey,and this is how I know they

(39:22):
don't give a damn about beingfunny.
The third name that I've heardis Colin Joest.
He is not fucking like guys.
Can we just be real?
He is not funny.
He's not funny.
Is he funny?
Tell me if he's funny.
If I'm trippin, no, but what Imean, tell me.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
I mean, I've never watched his stand up, but I
don't think so no, I don't evenmean his stand up.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
I just mean like, I mean we can update.
I just mean he, it's just it'snot there, like like hiring
everybody from the Harvardlampoon or whatever you guys do
at SNL, like that's not going tocarry you into tiktok land.
Okay, you don't know what.
Do you know what you're upagainst?
You're up against A world ofactually funny people who are
not afraid to make jokes aboutthe real shit that's going on

(40:05):
out here.
You can't.
You can't keep it cute and alsocompete with that for funny.
It's just it's not gonna work.
And I don't yes, morgan, I wasgonna say do you have to be
funny to do that?

Speaker 2 (40:18):
job, though, or do you just have to know funny to
do what job to be the Next?

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Lorne Michaels.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
No, I think you have to know funny.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
But like Specifically , I think to be the next Lorne
Michaels.
You'll only need to know how tohire more.
They're witty.
Like they're witty people.
They will not have you cryingand pissing yourself in your
seat like as they once did.
Like there was a time wheresome of the funniest white

(40:51):
people on earth were on thatshow and a few of the funniest
black people on earth were onthat show, and today that is no
longer so.
Like today, I think they arealmost.
I think that they would almostsay out loud we have a crisis
because our cast does not workoutside of this.
Our cast is not going off andgetting movie franchises and TV

(41:15):
shows that last season becausethey're just not funny enough,
but I think it's because theyare.
They're living in a box offunny that no longer has those
bounds.
Like funny is funny is in my.
When I go back to check myphone after this thing, I'll
have gotten four memes texted tome that are funnier than
anything I've seen on SNL in thelast four.
They're so not funny that theykeep bringing Pete Davidson back

(41:36):
.
He's not funny.
Like I'm sorry, I am angry now.
I'm not even angry, I just feellike I'm not angry.
I'm sorry, I am angry.
Now I'm not even angry, I justfeel conviction about this.
Like I promise you, if youlined up the five funniest
people on SNL right now and yougave me, like just quite

(41:58):
literally, the five funniestpeople whose phone numbers, I
have to go up against thembecause I would have access to
more races, more genders, morelife experiences, more areas of
surface area.
I want to go back to this.
White people being self awareabout whiteness and racism is
not funny.
That's not ironic, because youguys have been faking being

(42:20):
unself aware about this thewhole time, like you guys knew
it was this all along.
This is not a surprise to you.
This is not new information toyou that the irony would have
been funny if you guys weretruly ignorant about your racism
like this.
That's not funny, that's notenough to make it be funny, and
that's that's what I want totalk about.

(42:41):
American fiction next.
Okay, I'm bringing it down to abetter octave.
Talk about American fictionwhich I've still not seen, which
means which I give you aperfect person to talk about it,
because what I actually want totalk about is forget the movies
themselves for a second.
Like let's just talk about thesurface area around movies and

(43:04):
art.
Let's talk about the landscape.
Like I said before on this show, I did not want to watch
American fiction because themarketing for American fiction
told me like sometimes we asconsumers are simple if you tell

(43:27):
me the movies not for me, great, I won't see it.
Like.
If you tell me, if yourmarketing is telling me this is
a movie about stuff black peoplealready know and have covered,
but for us to teach white peopleabout these things, I can skip
that class.
I don't, that's not for me.
I said in the last episode ofthis thing sorry, my voice said

(43:49):
in the last episode of thisthing, I had to decide and and
maintain over and over and overagain that black magic, my first
book, was going to be a bookwritten to and for black people
and that white people could comeand come and cut their ear to
it, but it was going to bewritten to other black people.
White people and anybody elsecould come and cut their ear to
it, but it was written to andfor black people.

(44:10):
So that was a decision thatprobably on some level limited
the scope of market for thatbook.
But I, that was a decision Imade somewhere along the line.
Maybe it was in the create, thecreative of making this movie,
maybe it was in the marketing ofthis movie.
Maybe it was in the PR, maybeit was a conversation with the
studio.
But somewhere along along thelines someone decided we are

(44:31):
going to try to make this moviewhen an Oscar, we are going to
try to make this movie massaudience acceptable, which means
interesting to white people.
And so the marketing is goingto tell that story.
And so the marketing told me,if you guys go watch the trailer
for this movie, you will notsee a joke there that you
haven't already heard over andover and over again made in your

(44:51):
own circles, because it is soobvious.
The marketing for this thingtold me Chad, it's not for you
and I am not hard headed in thisway.
I don't have to see a moviethat's not for me like I, some
people I know I'm rooting foreverybody black.
I know some of y'all feel thatway I'm rooting is different

(45:14):
than going and buying a ticketto me.
Like if the movie is not for me, I'm still audience man.
I'm not like.
I'm not like a, not a martyr,I'm not a fucking, you know
human sacrifice, like I don'thave to go sit through two hours
of a movie.
That's not for me.
Today I woke up and I found outthat this movie had been

(45:34):
nominated for several Oscars andI'm still processing what that
means for me.
I did not know that it was inOscar nomination at all.
I have talked to several,several black who have said to
me that they saw the movieMorgan, included in this group,

(45:54):
and not one of them is willingto like stand on saying Chad, I
think you should see the movieMorgan, why not?

Speaker 2 (46:03):
well, I maybe would have until your little spiel and
I was like nope, nevermind,don't see it well, what did you
think about the movie?
I liked it.
I was entertained.
I don't feel like it saidanything that people didn't
already know, but like, but yeah, I was entertained, I liked it

(46:25):
why do you think it's nominatedfor an Oscar for several Oscars,
including best picture?

Speaker 1 (46:31):
I don't know, why do you think?

Speaker 2 (46:35):
I thought Jeffrey Wright did a good job acting.
I don't know.
I can't get the green bookthing out of my head that I sent
you Morgan sent me a meme justbefore we started this show.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
I don't know if it's to call it a meme, but it was a
tweet Someone had tweeted.
Please be serious, americanfiction is like the green book,
but written by a well-likedTwitter guy.
Of course, I've also never seenthe green book, so I can only
say but.
So much about this connection,but the connection I take from
it is like, if I spend this muchtime knowing and living in and

(47:17):
feeling and having conversationsabout this thing, that is so
obvious, that is so clear toanybody paying attention, which
is that black people who want acertain level of broader market

(47:38):
success, success with whitepeople, that there are certain
slots that those people need tostep into to fit there.
There are certain ways thosepeople need to fit comfortably
for white people under their armto get into those places.
If I know that and it's soclear and so and I've known it

(47:59):
since I was my parents startedtelling me that when I was
little Like they're, like, ifyou want to have it on your
terms, you got to build it.
Like, if you want to have it ina way that makes you feel good,
you got to build it and you gotto scrape and claw and you got
to do the job inch by inch byinch.
That's what you're seeing nowand I promise you it's
uncomfortable.
Like I promise you it isanxiety written.

(48:21):
It is a uphill climb.
It draws not only the scorn ofother people but also your own
people who are watching you doit and how you do it and like
don't want to be a part of ituntil it's already popping.
But if you want to take thatother path, like, you got to be

(48:43):
on the cover of Green Booklooking slavy, like that's it
Like.
If you want to do this otherthing, if you want to win the
Oscar for best picture, you gotto make them laugh.
You got to make white peoplelaugh.
Whites, you like that.
If you want to win the Oscar,you got to entertain whites.

(49:03):
You got to make them feel goodabout whatever it is that you're
saying.
You know what the main feedbackI've gotten about this movie is
Damn, I went to see it at theAlamo Draft House.
Damn, I went to see it atwhatever other fancy, funky, you
know urban theaters, where, ingentrified neighborhoods, and I
wish I'd seen it somewhere else,because every time the white

(49:26):
people in the room laughed.
It made me feel uncomfortableEvery time they laughed.
It's something that I know wassupposed to actually make them
feel shame, guilt, learning theylaughed.
I don't have a stomach for that.
Like I don't have a stomach totry to make something like that
and I don't have a stomach to goand try to watch something like

(49:47):
that without feeling pissed onthe whole time.
And so not that I was evergoing to watch the Oscars, but
like now I really can't watchthe Oscars because every time
this movie comes up and somebodygoes on the stage and gives
some extremely flat, basic assspeech and white people go hmm,

(50:08):
like it's super fucking deep, orthey laugh at something that's
obvious or whatever I'm justgoing to keep feeling pissed on
over and over and over and overagain.
I remember, like I rememberwatching Spike reconcile his
feelings about being up againstGreen Book Whatever that was
three, four, five years ago whenhe made Black Clansman.
And I remember like how I feltwatching Mahershala, who I think

(50:35):
of as like one of the dopestBlack actors working right now
and one of the most dignifiedand one of the coolest, like
naturally cool, without tryinglike squeeze himself into that,
into that costume for that moviecover and feeling like damn, we
always got to do some slavishshit to get an award.
Fuck it, I guess, no awards.

(50:58):
And of course my heart can'tcompletely wrap around fuck it,
no awards.
That's not human Like, ofcourse I still want awards, you
know what I mean.
Of course I still want money,but not like that man.
So I ain't never going to seethat movie.
I just don't see how I can,unless one of you guys who I
trust, will say Chad, just watchit, you'll love it.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Well, no, I definitely can't say that,
because I remember what it isyou said.
You said that it hits too closeto home and I was like, oh yeah
, probably.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
And that's even being too flat.
It's not just that I know ithits too close to home, but I
know like, get out, hit close tohome.
But I can just feel it from amillion miles away that that
movie is going to here's beingmore precise, it's supposed to
hit close to home but I knowthat it fucking misses the notes

(51:49):
.
I just know it.
I know it by who's in it.
I know it by the jokes thatI've seen on the marketing.
I know it by the referencesthat you all have made to it,
Like y'all aren't, y'all are notbeing, you're not just being
clear and just being like thatmovie was something you should
go see.
You guys are not standing on itthe way that I think you would

(52:09):
if it was, if it was fire.
And then naturally it is up forbest picture.
It is the only movie made by ablack person up for best picture
.
So very well, that goes on,stuff.
White people like okay.
So while we were away, Morganbroke her own rule and she
backtracked into the previoussegment with commentary.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
It's one o'clock, by the way, so we're going to.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
let's talk about it.
Okay, Morgan, what did you say?
And then Josh also saidsomething insightful.
So you, what did you say,Morgan?

Speaker 2 (52:40):
I said in relation to like stuff white people like uh
, there's the two types ofmovies that I feel like there's
either like the white saviormovie that has someone like
green book, or there's a movielike this, where I feel like
you're more so led in on aconversation between black
people that maybe you don't likearen't usually privy to, um,

(53:03):
which I feel like happens inAmerican fiction but is not
anything that I feel like blackpeople haven't already heard
before.

Speaker 1 (53:11):
Yeah, um.
So yeah, like um, wanting tofeel led in.
And I which my reaction to thatis it's uh, feels like kind of
sometimes the way white peoplewant to eat soul food as cuisine

(53:31):
, but they want, like, they kindof want it like white people's
soul food.
Like they want it, like theywant pies and thighs, you know
what I mean.
Like they don't want that real,like that real hot fire and
your shit stuff that has me upat four in the morning every
night, like they want likebetter and might be too spicy,
not too spicy.
Come on now, like you know,would be civilized.

(53:52):
Like don't say the realest,realest shit.
How about this?
Don't say what Jeffrey Wrightand Issa Rae would actually say
to each other as themselves saythis, you know, say this
lukewarm shit.
And then, josh, you saidsomething that was insightful as
well.

Speaker 3 (54:08):
Yeah, I just, you know, when you were speaking, I
was just thinking, like you know, is it even possible to?
Well, first, does a movie evenexist that has, like you know,
well, just for lack of a betterterm, slavy, slavy stuff?
in it that can actually that itwould take.
All the white people have likedbut feel but has given what to

(54:28):
go.
White people have liked andabsorbed the real emotions that
whoever was making it hopefullysomeone black making it wanted
them to feel and had this massappeal.
And if it doesn't exist, can iteven exist?

Speaker 1 (54:40):
Cause I don't, I can't think of one and I I think
the one that came to mind waslike moonlight, that's what I
was wrestling with in my headand I don't know.
You know, only only a whiteperson could know if they
actually walk away from thatsort of movie affected or if

(55:01):
they walk away like man.
That's crazy.
What's going on over there?
Like good thing I don't have todeal with any of that shit,
like, and then kind of go onwith their day Like I there's.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (55:13):
Maybe.
Well, I'll tell you a storyLike I've seen roots twice,
right, my mom why maybe?
Watch it?
And then, probably like a yearor six months later, when I was
really young, a kid, I watchedit.
I don't know who decided to.
You know, my upbringing is justlike, yeah, it's like mostly
white people and a sprinkling ofblack kids and a couple of
Asian kids, and we watchedsomeone.
We watched roots, and I thinkit was definitely under the age

(55:36):
of 10 and everybody in the roomobviously was feeling away as a
child.
And I don't know, I don't, Ican't, I have no idea if that
affected them in a way that madethem, you know, feel
differently or or what.
But that was the only movieI've ever watched amongst white
people.
That was a obviously the mostslaviest you can watch, and they

(56:00):
are and they were feeling therewas no laughing going on the
entire time.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
No, it's so.
I mean it's just it's sodifferent when it's I think it's
so different when it's not yourperson, your body, like your
image being reflected in theworst, worst conceivable moment.
And I and it works the oppositeway for me too Like I can watch

(56:25):
I watched Boardwalk Empire,that's what I'm watching right
now right, and it's Italians andIrish and Jews and Polish and
you know all kind of likebattling turf, battling over
Atlantic City and the alcoholtrade, basically, and it is

(56:47):
quite gory.
I mean like it is extremelyviolent.
It's one of the more violentshows you will see and violence
always takes a toll, like italways like fucks with me.
It always like I feel it overtime.
I'm ready for the show to beover.
I'm on the last episode.
I'm like thank God.
But I feel it differently whenit's Michael K Williams and
Jeffrey Wright on that same show, like taking shots at each

(57:11):
other, shooting up each other'sblack entourage.
It's like you, just I thinkthat there's something human
there and it's invented becausewe didn't have to make this race
, didn't have to be a thing, butlike it's invented that I now
feel more connection to themthan I do to a white person, but
like it's there, now, let's,let's.

(57:33):
Actually, that will transitionwell into this next story.
So did you guys both watch thelast dance on Netflix, the
Michael Jordan documentary?

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:46):
Yeah, most of it.

Speaker 2 (57:47):
Yeah, I think I don't know if I watched all of it,
but I watched most of it.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
So the last dance was Michael Jordan telling the
story of his last season on theChicago Bulls, their last run to
the championship, and also,like a bit, quite a bit, of his
life story.
His rise to this is review foreverybody, because everybody in

(58:11):
the fucking world watched thisthing, but his rise to Michael
Jordaness and the inner workingsof the bulls and the NBA at
that time and the things he hadto overcome to get into his
Michael Jordan slot, et cetera,et cetera and I thought it was
an excellent documentary, whilealso knowing I mean, I thought
it was so good I would watch itagain.
While also knowing, of course,that Michael Jordan's pin, so to

(58:35):
speak, was all over it, like itwas his telling of the Michael
Jordan story and so, as the heroof said story and as the pin
man, he was able to make peoplefrom that story look how he
wanted them to.
He and the and the and thedocumentarians, he and whoever

(58:55):
were the autors behind it withhim.
One of the people who gets itthe worst was a Shwebly sort of
hobbit-esque white guy namedJerry Krause, who was the
president and general manager ofthe Chicago Bulls when Michael
Jordan played for that team andin the docu-series they really

(59:19):
make him look like such atrollish, greedy, mean, like um.
It steps right on the line ofexposing him as a racist.
Basically they make him looklike just the most disgusting
overseer of this team andparticularly they show the power

(59:41):
struggle that there was betweenJerry Krause and Scotty Pippin
over Scotty Pippin's contract.
There's an image that is alittle bit haunting.
That's recounted, where ScottyPippin's on the team bus after
one of the games yelling andcursing at Jerry Krause, who's
in the front of the bus, aboutthis contract that he wants to
get out of because he'soutperform the contract.

(01:00:03):
And Michael Jordan portrayshimself in his own shit as a
bully to Jerry Krause, who wassomeone, as it seems in the
story, that all the playershated because he was the face of
white men owning andcapitalizing on these

(01:00:24):
extraordinarily talented blackmen and trapping them
contractually underneath theirmarket value.
It was an excellent littlerecount by me just now.
It was really good.
Recently the Chicago Bulls and,by the way, I'll get to my
opinion.
Let me just say what happened.
The Chicago Bulls did some sortof ceremony at one of their

(01:00:47):
home games where they werehonoring I think it was the
Chicago Bulls Ring of Honor.
They were bringing people intotheir Ring of Honor or whatever
their version of that is, andone of the people that they
honored during that thing wasthe late Jerry Krause, and his
widow went up to, I guess,accept the award for him or the
honor, and the fans booed theshit out of her, they reined

(01:01:12):
down booze from the arena overher and there was in response
what I saw was specifically by alot of white sports journalists
.
There was a response of alittle bit of like a slapping on
the wrist of the Chicago Bullsfans for how inappropriate, how

(01:01:33):
rude, how mean, how bullying toboo this woman for going to
accept this award for her latehusband, jerry Krause.
Tim McMahon, who I havementioned before, who was the
guy who I said wrote about JohnMorant in a way that I found to
be dehumanizing Tim McMahon isback, such a douchebag.

(01:01:54):
He's back and he says MichaelJordan is a bully.
He's a petty bully.
He's arguably the greatestplayer of all time, but he's a
petty bully and the fansfollowed his lead.
That was his understanding ofthis thing that happened.
I think it conveniently missesan important point, and that
point I got to pull this thingup to read the full segment of

(01:02:18):
it.
You have it.
I'm going to read it.
I got it.
I think that point is well madein this anecdote from David
Halberstam's book Playing forKeeps.
It says somewhere in this time,krause made the first of what
were to be two fateful mistakesin dealing with Jordan, mistakes

(01:02:38):
that created a fault line, atfirst rather marginal, but later
far more important.
In a conversation with Jordan,he rebuffed one of Jordan's
pleas to play and said that heand Jerry Ryan's dwarf would
make the decision because Jordanwas their property.
It was a colossally stupidthing to say about any player,
particularly a black one, and itwas a statement that Michael
Jordan never forgot and neverforgave.

(01:03:00):
It was the beginning of a splitbetween star player and the
head of the organization thatbecame over the years
increasingly bitter and thatnever healed Tim McMahon because
he is A white boy from Texas, Ibelieve.
I think is missing what is mostimportant here, which is that

(01:03:26):
this was a beef between MichaelJordan and Jerry Krause that was
much deeper than whatever wethink of when we think about the
relationship between labor andmanagement.
A labor management beef betweena black person and a white
person goes always so muchdeeper than just I'm mad because

(01:03:49):
I work for you and you're notgiving me what I want.
It is always, I believe to belike the way that we even get to
this place where I, michaelJordan, one of one talent of all
time, and you, jerry Krause,even get to sit across from me
in a meeting or get to talk tome at all or get to know me, is
that, in and of itself, isrooted in slavery, like that, in

(01:04:12):
and of itself, is rooted inanti-blackness and white
supremacy.
Jerry Krause shouldn't even bein the building with somebody as
talented as Michael Jordan,dennis Rodman, scottie Pippin.
What do the two have to do witheach other?
How can he even be someone thatMichael Jordan has to confront
to talk about a contract, if notfor the advantages given to

(01:04:34):
Jerry Krause year over year,century over century, that start
with slavery?
This is it's like I know sobadly what Zach Lowe, bill
Simmons, the next white guy, thenext white guy, the next white
guy that write and talk aboutsports.
I know so badly that becauseyou guys just want your sports,

(01:04:56):
you just want all that othershit to disappear and you just
want it to be guys.
It's just about basketball.
It is a coincidence that 85% ofthe people who run the teams
own the teams, speak on theteams, write about the teams,
podcast on the teams.
It is just a coincidence thatall those people are white and

(01:05:17):
the demographics of the teamsare the opposite of that.
They are the flip side of that.
They're the inverse of that.
I know you guys want it to justwash away into the ocean, but
like it's not over for MichaelJordan, this person called
Michael Jordan he was this dudedidn't even own the team.
He was the fucking generalmanager and told and had this
guy?
This guy looking up at MichaelJordan's fucking naval had the

(01:05:41):
gall to tell him he was hisproperty.
And now, 30 years later, hegoes to be honored, which is
bullshit, or his wife goes outthere to go honor him and
they're booing the piss out ofhim because they love Michael
Jordan.
They love Michael Jordan andthey fucking hate him.
And Tim McMahon is riding forJerry Krause.

(01:06:01):
You guys want it to be over,but it's not.
It's not over until it'sfucking over.
Like you don't decide when,just in general, like the beef
isn't over until both people saybeef is over, that's beef.
Okay, that's beef.
Um, I remember I ran into a dude.

(01:06:22):
I went to college with a dude.
I was good with 95% of the guysI went to school with, but
there were a couple guys whojust like they just rub you the
wrong way.
I can you can see that there'sa phony in there and I can never
.
I'm like.
I told you, I'm like Penny.
If somebody in the room isbeing weird, I can't stop
noticing them and at a certainpoint I can't stop going over to

(01:06:44):
sniff their ass.
And there's one guy and he wasa fucking weird all the whole
time.
He was always kind of like.
He was always trying to likestep on me and make me feel
weird or whatever, whatever.
And then a couple years later Icome back from homecoming, I run
into this dude in the club andhe wants to give me a big dap
and a hug and I'm like.

(01:07:06):
I'm just like.
I think don't touch me, becauseyou don't get to just decide
when beef starts and when it'sover.
Like you, it's not over untilit's over.
It's not over until both peoplesay that it's over, and Michael
Jordan didn't say it's over.
So I don't care if it's you oryour widow or your son, whoever

(01:07:27):
comes up here to accept theaward on behalf of Jerry Krauss,
the guy who said I am hisproperty, the fucking general
manager, not even the owner.
Like I can't, even, I can't evenimagine.
Can you guys think about thissort of mind fuck of self
control, that it is to be ablack person, to be Michael

(01:07:51):
Jordan?
Okay, six foot six, one of oneathlete, incredible hand, eye
coordination, like billionaireor, at that time, probably close
to a hundred million, air offcontracts and sponsorships, and
you have this little guy walk upto you, look up at you and tell

(01:08:13):
you he's your, you are hisproperty in the 1990s.
Okay, so you're like 1800s andlike, and you don't smack him
through the floorboards of thatarena, that is, that's more
impressive than anything I eversaw Michael Jordan do on a
basketball court, and that isTim McMahon.
If you don't get it why MichaelJordan still feels that way,

(01:08:37):
you're just a fucking asshole,like that, I mean, and it's on
purpose.
Like, oh, you're so gross, timMcMahon.
Okay, I feel clear.
Um, we got 12 minutes left.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
By the way, I don't love the fans either.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
I don't love the fans either.
I mean because the fans willturn on Michael Jordan in a
second.

Speaker 3 (01:08:57):
And I saying that just for that reason too.
I'm just like they don't reallylove Mike.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
No, and I did.
I mean, it's not to me, it'snot even about the fans, but
it's like we're not in theprotecting Jerry Krause, like we
can't be in protection modeover Jerry Krause of all of all
people and like, yeah, I knowit's a little bit like you
married him, like you got tolive with the way that people
see him.
You've had to live with thatsince you've been married.

(01:09:21):
Okay, um, couple other things.
We're just going to do somesports notes real quick.
Kevin Durant wants to know whyhe shouldn't be in the goat
discussion.
That's real.
That's a real headline.
I mean, people are laughingalready just off of the headline
.
Why shouldn't I be in that?

(01:09:42):
What haven't I done?
Um, okay, it would be too easyto just like do a dunk on Kevin
Durant segment right here.
That's not, that's not eveninteresting.
What I'm going to do issomething more along the lines
of okay, oh God, well, I got todo it.
This is how.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
I feel oh.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
God, Whatever you say , oh God that scares me.
Listen, I told you guys that,like, what Michael Jordan was
the best at was basketball.
Like he was also amazing atstorytelling by way of marketing
movies.
You know the Michael Jordanaura, the brand.

(01:10:22):
He was a great businessman, butwhat he was best at was
basketball.
What LeBron James is best at istelling the story of LeBron
James being great at basketball.
I said that before.
That is the millennial giftthat we have now is not actually
being great at a discipline orcraft, but at being great at

(01:10:46):
telling the story of how greatwe are at that thing.
I'm way better at this thanscreenwriting.
That's an example of what I'mtalking about, but I'm really
good at other forms of writing.
Kevin Durant is taking a cuefrom LeBron James here.
Now he's taking a cue fromLeBron Shaq, Charles Barkley,

(01:11:12):
dreymont Green.
The cue is the basketballplayer no longer needs the
journalist to preserve theirlegacy.
The basketball player preservestheir legacy on their own, by
way of microphones.
The basketball player bring.
Now that Kevin Durant has saidthis, Some people conceivably

(01:11:33):
will actually have aconversation about whether or
not Kevin Durant is the goat,even though the idea of that is
laughable, even though In everyway, his star doesn't compare to
the people who we actuallyshould be having conversations
about being the goat, and weshouldn't even really be having
those conversations, but he nowhas entered his name into that

(01:11:54):
thing.
I'm like I should come up hereon here and be like why
shouldn't I win Best Picture?
You know what I'm saying?
Why am I not on the HollywoodWalk of Fame?
Because what have you?
No, that's not the point.
That's not the point.
The point is, more importantlyand I'm going to continue to

(01:12:15):
take cues from other people whoare good at this I just bought a
book called Traffic.
It's by a guy named Ben fuck, Ican't remember his last name,
but he founded Buzzfeed and itis about the founding and the
start of it just came out lastyear.
It's about two gigantic media.

(01:12:36):
Yes, ben Smith.
Why is that so funny, morgan?
Because it was so easy.
I'm sorry, ben Smith, okay,he's the founder of Buzzfeed and
I went to Greenlight Booksyesterday.
I was doing a little nostalgiatrip around Fort Green because I
wanted to go back to where Iused to go, buy books about

(01:12:58):
screenwriting andentrepreneurialism and the
four-hour week and all that goodto great and all that stuff.
I'm back in that sort of mode.
I'm learning how to build abrand and I'm learning how to
market and I'm learning how totalk to an audience and I'm
learning how to drive traffic tothe places I wanted to go.

(01:13:21):
So I bought this book.
I was looking all over thisbookstore I was like, ah,
there's no books for me.
I don't know what I want.
I don't want any of this stuff.
Like nothing's perfect here andit's in there for an hour and I
was like God, none of thesebooks are the ones that I need.
To speak to me.
And I was just about to walkout and there was a book, a big
blue book, called Traffic,pointing at Me and the subtitle
says something like you know,the 20-year history of the

(01:13:45):
attention economy and blah, blah, blah.
And I was like, ah, that'sperfect.
So why did I bring that up?
Oh, because Kevin Durant, whois still excellent, obviously,
but like he sees the twilight ofhis career ahead of him and he
now needs to do the legacy.
It's no longer enough to justbe great.

(01:14:06):
It's not.
It is no longer enough to justbe excellent at your discipline,
because the storytellingfaculties are breaking down.
Sports Illustrated just fired abunch of people because the
company that was licensing.
Sports Illustrated didn't paytheir bills, and so now it's
returning an ownership to someholding company, and who knows

(01:14:26):
what they'll do with it.
Gq and who just merged.
And Pitchfork just mergedbecause it's shrinking the
storytelling economy as far asbrands and publications, is
shrinking because it'sdistributing where the
storyteller's now.
So if Kevin Durant wants to bethought of as a goat, he has to

(01:14:47):
tell us that he's a goat and hehas to tell us why.
And so I have to continue totell people what I am and what
to call me, and so do you if youwant them to know.
All right, last one, yes,morgan.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
By the way, I just want to.
I'm going to allow us tobacktrack one more time, because
Shannon said in the commentsChad.
Does it impact your opinion atall to know that American
fiction is based on a novel by avery talented black novelist,
persephial Everett, even thoughof course it still has to fit
into a certain very specificmold to get white prestige

(01:15:22):
attention?

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Well, I knew that because I saw I've learned a
little bit about the movie frompodcasts and stuff.
Didn't know the author's name,but I knew it had been adapted.
I also saw that it's nominatedfor best adapted screenplay.
Does it actually change myopinion?
No, how is knowing how thesausage got made supposed to
change my opinion?

(01:15:45):
That the marketing of thismovie and the reception of this
movie and the response to themovie is all telling me that
this was a movie.
This was not a movie made forblack people where white people
could come and cup their ear toit.
It was the opposite.
Okay, last thing Snoop Doggdeclined $100 million from only
fans.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
I wonder why.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
I don't know why he would do that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
They wanted him to show hole.
Do what Like show his dick, oh.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
Yeah, I was getting ready so I was like you're
missing there.
They wanted him to show the dog, you know, oh, for a hundred
million.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
Is that a?

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
term yeah what, okay, what in relation to acting Like
never mind, okay, whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:16:31):
I mean, okay, well, that makes a lot more sense why
he would say no to that.
Like what?
Where's the upside for SnoopDogg on showing his D for a
hundred million dollars?

Speaker 2 (01:16:41):
The a hundred million dollars I would imagine.

Speaker 1 (01:16:44):
If it were a good deal for him, then they would
have offered more.
They wouldn't offer him a dealthat was bad for them.
I guess that hundred milliondollars is worth more in traffic
to them than it is to him wouldbe my guess.
Traffic and branding, and wow,snoop Dogg, and um no, it feels
kind of racist too, I'm notgonna lie, feels pretty racist,

(01:17:06):
I don't know.
They didn't offer a white boy ahundred million dollars to see
his dick.
This is true, okay, um, allright, well, this has been
nothing but anarchy.
And we will be in Washington DCFebruary 8th, 7 o'clock at
Shanklin Hall.
Go get your tickets now.
They will run out and I willnot help anybody at the door,
because I'm not gonna make ahabit of doing that, because

(01:17:27):
we're gonna do more stops and Idon't.
I just, I just can't do it.
I just can't do it.
So go buy your tickets.
Man, buy your tickets, show up,have a good time with us.
We're gonna do the show in yourface, that's it.
That's it.