On this outdoor episode, Chad talks about Ye and his new #1 song, Black Twitter and the upcoming documentary, and the TikTok ban.
Tune in Tuesdays and Thursdays at 12PM ET to watch the show live on Youtube. Follow @chadsand on Instagram and subscribe to the Nothing But Anarchy Youtube channel for full interviews and more anarchy!
Executive Produced by: Chad Sanders
Produced by: Morgan Williams
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Okay, welcome to nothing but anarchy.
We're outside, we're in Queens,we are some minute matter of
minutes away from where I live.
We're in this giant field thatI usually bring penny to to
throw the ball, because it isliterally gigantic.
I can't really y'all can't seea pan around.
A pan around of it, right, thissecond.
(00:29):
But anyway, all right, let's dothe show.
So, first thing on the dockethere Kanye West has a number one
song on Billboard.
It is his first time having anumber one charting, not a
number one hip hop song, not anumber one R&B song.
Like a number.
He has the number one song inthe world as told by Billboard
(00:51):
and billboards algorithm thatdiscernments who has the biggest
show or song in the world isopaque.
Nobody outside of that room canbe certain about exactly what
it means to have the number onesong in the world, but like it's
a, it seems to be a big deal.
The reason why it's opaque isbecause it was always opaque,
but like it used to be, aboutstreams and, I believe, record
(01:14):
sales and, I'm sorry, notstreams radio plays and record
sales.
And now it has to factor instreams and those streams come
from everywhere.
They come from Spotify, appleMusic, tiktok, instagram.
So like having the number onesong in the world means your
song is big in all of thosemediums.
Why this is noteworthy.
(01:34):
Actually, before I even say that, this reminds me of something
in college, which was that Iused to write on the newspaper
in college obviously because I'ma nerd and there was this thing
that we would release as apaper every week or so two weeks
, which was called 20 questions,and it would be these 20
(01:57):
esoteric questions about goingson and it would be positive on
campus and at Morehouse andSpelman and Clark, and it would
posit different theories aboutwhat's up with certain people.
It would be messy, it would bespicy, it would be like really
pointed and sometimes mean, andbecause I was like at the, at
(02:19):
when I got all the way to, youknow, probably my junior year, I
was like number two or numberthree on the paper and the paper
Wow, this sounds so old.
Morgan, did you guys have acollege newspaper?
Yeah, we did.
Okay, word.
Did it actually have physicalcopies?
Yeah, okay, word.
Well, so it's not in the calf,yeah, so all right.
(02:43):
This thing used to happen where, because people knew that I was
on the paper and very much inlike the inner circle of the
paper, where when somethingwould come out, it would be some
pretty spicy shit on there,like it would get into people's
relationships, people's sexualidentity, people's future,
people's money.
(03:03):
Like it would really go thereand every time something would
come out that was regardingsomebody I was close to, people
would it could get a littlespicy.
One time I was at a party andthere was a girl there.
We were all outside the party,we were like about to get into a
bunch of cars and drive to thenext spot and there was a girl
(03:25):
there who I was close friendswith I'm saying a girl because
we were like 20, 19 years oldand she was super drunk and she
slipped and fell and she hurtherself and I didn't have
anything to do with her slippingand falling and hurting herself
and it found its way into 20questions and I didn't put it
there and I remember for likesix months after that happened
(03:47):
she and her smaller circle offriends were very icy with me
and I didn't know why.
Like I had no idea I was there.
I was helping her when theincident occurred, like I didn't
know what it was, and what itturned out to be was that they
thought I was responsible forputting her on blast with that
and making her look like a lushin front of our campus.
And I didn't.
(04:09):
And the truth in fact is andthis is only interesting to
people who I went to collegewith I never knew who wrote 20
questions.
I still to this moment, don'tknow who wrote 20 questions,
which is crazy because I wasbasically damn near like the
editor in chief of the paper.
So I don't know how they werewritten, I don't know how they
got in there, I don't know whosubmitted them, whatever.
I'm saying that because there isan intentional power that
(04:32):
publications what do you want tocall them?
Committees, academies preservefor themselves by not telling
you how the sausage gets made.
Like that is.
That is like almost theirintellectual property.
That is the leverage that theyhave to maintain prestige and
bargaining power over theindustries that they're in.
(04:53):
Obviously, there's the academyaround the Oscars that preserves
that power by not telling youexactly how you are supposed to
win.
The Grammys are like that.
Billboard is also like that.
Probably only a very smallgroup of people know exactly how
you get a number one top, anumber one charting song, and so
that can create the, that cancreate the feeling among the
(05:16):
rest of us that there is someblack magic afoot and that you
have to like kowtow to thepowers that be to get a number
one song.
That whole setup was to say thisKanye West Morgan wants me to
call him by his government name,which is now yay, but as I came
to know him, like as a fan andalso a little bit in IRL like
(05:39):
Kanye West is doing somethingthat you are not really allowed
to be able.
You're not, like we do so muchconspiracy, theorizing around
what you can and cannot get awaywith on this earth, and
especially in this country,because you're going to be boxed
out of this room.
These people are going to bemad at you.
You're not going to be able todo this.
(06:00):
You're not going to be able toplay in this, in this sport, and
like this dude, as anindependent artist with no label
behind him besides his own,which is formidable, so I don't
want to act like he as a labelis not powerful, but like this
dude, who has been outwardlyspewing anti-semitic rhetoric,
who has been outwardly uh,misogynistic, homophobic, like
(06:23):
he is doing the thing that Ithink has always been his
aspiration, which is, to excuseme, which is to be as brazen and
, in some cases, mean and andand like unfounded as a powerful
white man, without being boxedout of the rooms that he wants
(06:44):
to be boxed out of.
I'm watching it happen.
I didn't think he was, I didn'tthink it was possible.
He has transcended what I thinkI had my brain wrapped around
in terms of the power that anartist could have by themselves.
And obviously he doesn't workby himself.
He has a team around him, hehas faculties, he has buildings
(07:04):
that he leases and owns, he has,you know, connections all over
the planet, but like he is pokedin the eye the people who
you're not supposed to beallowed to poke in the eye and
he's getting away with itbecause still yet his art is at
the top of the top of the thing.
Okay, that's all premise.
Now I want to dig into it alittle bit.
Number one um, I listened toKanye's whole album when it came
(07:28):
out.
If Kanye West drops an album, Iwill pretty much always listen
to it because I want to know.
I have been studying the arc ofthis person so fastidiously
since I was 16 years old.
At one point it wasaspirational.
It was like I want to.
I want to be like this guy,which is to say, I want to have
(07:51):
the confidence in myself and inmy artistic ability to like play
with the biggest toys and makethe most impactful stuff.
Lately, it has transitioned towhere I'm really just now
watching out of voyeurism.
I think Kanye West is doing whathe set out to do, which was, it
(08:13):
seems like he wants us tobelieve that all the rules are
make-believe, like it seems likehe wants us to to reconsider
what we think are the boundaries.
Very specifically and asexample, it is so like laid into
(08:34):
the fabric of black culture andother cultures that, like you
do not insult Jewish people.
That is like that is a rule andlike hold everybody, I'm
working especially I'm sure youguys are very nervous with where
I'm going here.
All I am saying is like he ispointing out things that we have
shared to be so and he's pokingthem in the eye and he's
(08:55):
continuing to do the thing andI'm just like how?
Basically, I'm like how muchlonger can he get away with this
?
I'm not saying it's a goodthing to do, I'm not saying the
experiment that he's doing ispositive, but it's?
It's making me reconsider, likethe things that we fear and
accept to be so like.
Why do we do it?
He doesn't seem to have thatthing that makes you afraid of
(09:19):
the same stuff other people areafraid of.
I think he's afraid of his ownstuff, I think he's afraid of
being alone.
I think he's afraid of beingunheard, invisible, but he
doesn't seem to be afraid of thesame shit that makes me scared.
So I'm curious to see what's upwith that.
Okay, another layer here.
(09:39):
When I saw this story, when Isent this story to Morgan and
said hey, I want to talk aboutKanye going number one, she said
we should also talk about theperson that he fired who was
like his head of basically, hishead is publicity, sort of
almost, yeah, like head ofpromotion, head of community.
And so I dug into it and thatperson happens to be yes, jules.
(09:59):
And I will be honest, like thefirst place, kanye surrounds him
with people who are, who are,the internet.
Like that is his.
He has married people who arethe internet he is, he staffs
himself by people who are theinternet.
The first connotation I had toyes, jules was that, yes, jules
(10:20):
had a sex tape.
That's the first thing Iremembered about yes Jules when
her name, I was like, who isthis person again, what's this
name?
And I remember like eight yearsago it was floating around the
internet and that was my firsttime of knowing that this person
existed.
And how she existed was thatshe was sort of like the
original Bobby Altaff, like shewas on Snapchat interviewing
(10:42):
black rappers affecting black.
I think she wore a shirt thathad the N word on it and there
was this whole swirl around thisperson which was like is she
black?
Is she not?
What is she doing around ourculture?
And like what is and what isher purpose here?
I have not been aware of yesJules since that moment until
(11:03):
today, when Morgan said weshould also talk about the
person that has been running hispublicity around this
particular song.
So I went and looked and a partof what's happening right now is
that Kanye has fired thisperson because she has inside
(11:26):
Kanye's camp.
He has a far alt right.
I guess COO basically is whatthis guy's job is.
What's his name?
Morgan?
It's like the Milo's guy.
Okay, we don't know how topronounce his last name.
His first name was Milo.
This is excellent journalism byus.
The point is that, yes, julesis in a like a standoff with
(11:50):
this guy because, as it seems,they both were in the inner
inner, inner circle with Kanye.
Yes, jules has published andtweeted and sent out like
screenshots of their text group.
Here's this guy and Kanye.
This is ridiculous.
This is like an ad-lib and amad love.
What I see there in those textmessages that she has published,
(12:12):
is that Kanye continues to besurrounded by people who, at
this point, are like Kanye,which means they look completely
vapid and empty of anythingother than the pursuit of more
(12:34):
power, influence, ways todominate other people, like ways
to take out their angryviciousness on others, ways to
poke at the insecurities ofother people to mirror their own
.
I don't know if I have alanding point, because this is
(12:56):
like still in the middle ofwhere it's at, which is to say,
like Kanye is back at number one, at the top of this whole thing
.
That just comes as a reminderto me that, over and over and
over again, we just can't quitKanye and we just keep voting
for Kanye.
That's all I got.
All right, okay, this is not abacktrack, this is just.
(13:21):
This is now that I have had 30seconds to process it.
Like, talking about Kanye justgives me internet brain.
I'm just like what are we eventalking about?
Like what?
I'm like what, the what?
Like yes, jewels involved.
Like what the fuck is evengoing on?
It's very difficult to talkabout guy in a way that feels
(13:45):
like he's just like.
It's just like what.
It's just a kaleidoscope ofdumbness.
Okay, all right, sorry aboutblack Twitter.
Okay, morgan smiling already,but what?
Alright, let's start here.
I want Morgan to share a couplethings.
You'll just be a voice behindthe screen, like okay.
The first thing is this Morgan,we are okay, let me set the
(14:08):
stage.
There's a black everybodyprobably knows this, but there's
a black Twitter documentarycoming out.
It comes out.
I think this isn't promo, I'mnot saying when it comes out,
but there's a black Twitter doccoming out.
Princess Penny, who was theshowrunner of insecure, is the
filmmaker.
It is featuring the voices ofseveral Black Celebrities,
(14:29):
voices you know, across mediumsor industries.
I saw Jamel Hill is involved.
Kid fury is involved Apparently, like allegedly, or apparently
because of the trailers and shit.
I have no, I haven't confirmedany of that.
But here's what I want to start.
Okay, because I do think thatas, as a community evolves here
(14:54):
within this show, and also aspeople get to know each other
and get to know, like, yourvoice.
I Think a part of what is funand interesting about
conversation is the ways that wePredict each other's points of
view, and Morgan and I have nowspent almost a year together,
like in this show.
(15:15):
We've known each other foralmost two years probably now,
or maybe over two years now, butwe've really got, we're really
getting to know each otherthrough the duration of this
show.
It's been almost a year, almosta year exactly.
At this point, morgan, I wantto know two things.
We talked briefly this morning,but like okay.
One, what do you think aboutthe black Twitter documentary,
(15:36):
which already has, like Peoplehave already logged so many
points of view on it and it'snot out?
Yeah, what do you think aboutit?
And the number two is what doyou think I think about it,
because you seem to beanticipating my point of view.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Okay, what I think about it is.
I Think that I Don't know, likeyou said, it hasn't come out
yet.
I think the premise isinteresting because Black
Twitter has been such a hugephenomenon in culture and, like
(16:10):
you know, opinions that likespark larger conversations and
Comedy like humor yeah, that adocuseries about it could be
cool, because I feel like mediaand Film, tv and all that stuff
does document like the currentplaces that we're in and might
(16:33):
be the only source of Accuratehistory in a way, possibly.
Um, so I think doing adocuseries on something as huge
as black Twitter it's cool, itdefinitely does feel like it
would be a huge feat, but Iwould give it like a chance,
like I would like be interestedin seeing it and so seeing
everybody kind of be hesitantabout it from the jump, despite
(16:58):
the fact that, like it's notlike a white person's thinking
you, like it's Prince Penny,like which I don't know he might
have controversy, I don't know.
But, um, the point is I'm likeI'm giving it a, not a chance.
Yeah when I read the article yousent me, there was a very valid
thing in there which was Aboutwho is this for, mm-hmm, and
(17:20):
that's something that you havetalked about before.
Yeah, through your ownexperiences.
Yes so I figured, based off ofyou sending me that and your
history, some sort of responsearound who this is for going
through the washer machine ofthe people at Hulu, or whoever
else is behind this.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Um, and that it's going to be that.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
That's what you predict.
So something that you said I, Imean, I have infinity things to
say about this.
So Something that you said tome on the phone that I really I,
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
(18:39):
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I
(19:21):
, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
(20:04):
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I.
That's a part of the criticismthat has already started around
(20:24):
this black Twitter doc is thatpeople who feel like they were
actually a part of it and are,if it still exists, feel miffed
because the faces that they'reseeing and the person who's
making the film do not reflectto them who they thought to be
that who comprise that community.
I want to be super duper clearon this, and I think you and I
(20:49):
are both in this same buckethere.
I am a total outsider on thisconversation.
Like I am not a part of blackTwitter, like I can, I barely
tweet because it's not a mediumthat I find enjoyable personally
, like it's not a medium that Idon't love seeing people's.
I don't scroll TikTok and Idon't scroll Twitter because I
(21:12):
don't love seeing people's likequick, little shot off quips and
stuff like that.
Like it gives me internet brain, like it gives me it's a little
overwhelming, and when I seesomething that feels really mean
and it stings me, I don't havethe ability to just jump off of
it that quickly.
I have to now, like I wouldn'tMorgan say she's like, because
(21:33):
I'm a man and I have a lot of Ithink I have a lot of feelings.
Like, yeah, I have a lot offeelings.
So, okay, there's the firstlayer, which is like, indeed,
yes, morgan, we cannot doanything without criticism from
our own people.
That's a fact.
I also want to add that art isgoing to be criticized.
(21:59):
Like you can't.
Like I saw Princess Penny putout a statement on Twitter that
was basically like come on, youguys don't trust me to handle
this thing.
I've been in the culture for 20years doing this, blah, blah,
blah and one it just goes toshow you like people do not know
show runners like Princess, Iknow you think we should all
know and trust you, but, likedog, we don't know you.
(22:20):
Like your show runner, you knowwhat I mean.
Like the town knows you,hollywood knows you by your name
because of insecure, but likewe don't know you.
Second is the fact that there'sthis much of a balloon already
of criticism and buzz aroundwhat you're going to release.
That is a gift to you.
Like that is going to bringeyeballs and attention and a
(22:42):
larger conversation, and you'regoing to have a chance to ride
that conversation and, in someways, probably own that
conversation around this thing.
This is the biggest one for me,though, this is the big one Do
I think it's going to be good.
I think the conversation aroundit is going to be more
(23:03):
interesting than the documentaryitself.
I say that having seen Kid Furynotwithstanding, because he is
very sharp and very interesting.
I've seen some of the names andfaces that are going to be in
the dock, and they are faces andnames that I usually scroll
past because and this is meta,is a meta reflection of the dock
(23:24):
itself because they are peoplewho I find, when they use their
voices and I'm not going to namenames they're always coming at
like the 70% point on thetimeline of those conversations.
They're late, they're never infront, they're never first, it's
never a new, fresh point ofview.
It's like they are chroniclingwhat the point of views already
(23:47):
are that are being reflectedaround blackness and that has
been.
Generally speaking, myconversation or my level of
engagement or observation withBlack Twitter itself is that I
don't feel represented by BlackTwitter.
I don't feel like theconversation that's happening
there is leading theconversation that's happening
(24:10):
around black circles.
I feel like, and I have aproblem with anything that
presents itself as the blackthing that doesn't truly include
all of them, no matter howfucking pale, mixed like African
, whatever the fuck, whateverway you use nerdy white,
(24:33):
affecting like, whatever way youuse to discredit somebody's
blackness, like they're blackand if their voice is not a part
of the, if their voice is notreflected in some way in this
community and in this doc, thenit doesn't really actually
represent us.
And so, like I still see BlackTwitter as something over there,
it has a tone that I don'tpersonally appreciate.
(24:56):
It has a tone that is, it has atone that is shrill.
It has a tone that is sometimesmean on purpose.
It has a tone that is sometimeslike degenerative on purpose,
and I can like you guys know mytone like I can get mean if I
want to.
Like I can get spicy, but it'snot, like it is not meant, with
(25:18):
the attention, to degrade firstand foremost like myself and
then and then like other peoplelike me.
I think that's.
I think that's counter to thepoint.
So will I watch this documentary?
Probably only if some peoplethat I like tell me to watch it
and think that it's really good.
But do I think it reflects,like actually, what is Black
(25:41):
Twitter?
I don't see how it.
I don't see how it can.
The last thing I got to say isjust like y'all, we are making
documentaries about Twitter.
This is really we are like theinternet is just really like
floating away on us.
Like it is.
Just it is become such a navalgazing, meta, house of mirrors
(26:05):
that like to take this seriouslyis counterproductive, in my
opinion.
The last thing I want to sayhere is like I know there is a
sentiment out there that somepeople are saying, well, like
hey, a black person is directingit, it's going to have a bunch
of black people that get checksfrom it, you know, etc.
(26:25):
Etc, etc.
This is going to be a longerconversation as I roll out my
book, but like that doesn't meannothing to me anymore.
Like that doesn't.
Like like I'm not just out herelike yo, I just want to see all
black folks get rich.
I want to see everybodytalented and with a moral
(26:49):
compass and like a genuinelydecent human being get after it.
And like I don't know thesepeople so I'm not just going to
like be rooting for their shit,no matter what.
That's how I feel.
There's an adjective I forgot touse that describes what I feel
around black Twitter and again,I'm an outsider like I.
(27:10):
It only reaches me when itreaches me, but it feels in that
prism.
It feels mean, it feels shrilland it feels performative.
Now, I'm not gonna try togatekeep, but like when I see
the people and the voices thatare meant to represent Black
(27:31):
Twitter, when I am outside inreal life around, I know I'm
like there's nobody that knowsmore niggas than me on Earth.
I'm the most nigga-knowingperson in the whole wide world.
That should probably go in thereal like I.
My life is comprised of everydifferent type of Black person.
Okay, and when we I don't wantto say when we when I see those
(27:56):
Black Twitter people.
Irl.
They are the ones observing therest of culture, like they are
the ones watching from thecorner to see what does.
What do Black people do so thatthey can go tweet it?
And that's that's where I feellike do we need something to
celebrate that faction?
(28:17):
Like we're not talking aboutactivists, we're not talking
about like artists, I'm nottalking about like people that
actually move this thing alongand help us get somewhere.
I'm talking about people whoobserve and tweet.
That's not the same as a writer,alright, so I'm going to take
(28:37):
what Morgan just told me and tryto parse it down into the most
basic language that I canunderstand, which is a bill has
been passed to Band TikTokBecause there are concerns that
the Chinese government could usedata that they are getting from
(28:58):
TikTok to cause a threat to theUnited States.
And the, I guess like what'sbeing offered as tender is like
if you want TikTok to continueto exist in this country, you
have to sell it.
They're holding company thatowns TikTok will have to sell it
(29:19):
.
Here's what I see.
I see a couple things.
Tiktok is at war with musiclabels right now, specifically
Universal, I want to sayUniversal Music Group.
Universal Music Group removedTikTok songs from.
I'm sorry, universal MusicGroup removed Universal songs
(29:40):
from TikTok over money disputes.
This smells of super wealthypeople moving the world around.
It smells of super wealthypeople being at war with each
other and playing leverage gameswith each other.
If I'm honest, here's, butbecause I'm not one of them,
(30:02):
here's the part that I careabout.
One of my friends texted methis morning and said you care
about what's going on with thisTikTok thing?
Texting me and Tim Veryselfishly.
My first thought was and I havefelt this way for some time I
hope TikTok goes away, becauseall my traction is on Instagram
(30:28):
and I'm not just being a prickto say that.
What I mean by that is trulythis I just had a two hour long
workshop yesterday with a poetwho is trying to get somewhere
in the business of creativity,and maybe 45 minutes into our
session together, she was likedamn, this whole conversation is
(30:49):
going to be about social media,isn't it?
And I was like yes, because ifyou want to sit with me and have
a one on one sort of selfdiscovery session to talk about
how you tap in with yourself,how you figure out what you have
to say, how you figure out howto craft it into whatever medium
(31:11):
it's supposed to take.
I promise you I will talk toyou for 10 hours about that.
There's nothing I love andexcites me more.
Hi, sweetie, hi Booger, okay,hi, there's nothing that I love
and that excites me more.
Sorry, there's a dog.
We got to wait.
Hi, puppy, bye, you're thelittle best.
(31:31):
There's nothing I love and thatexcites me more.
However, if you are a workingcreative, if you are a creative
person who already has thecapacity to like, make something
artistic, the rest of the gameis going to be commerce, and
commerce happens on social media.
(31:52):
The person who I was having aconversation with and I won't
divulge too much, I don't wantto, you know, break any privacy
but, like, one of the things shewanted to talk about was
getting signed in an agency, andI want to say definitively to
anybody who has that on theirvision board like you will be
doing just as much, if not more,work selling yourself once you
(32:13):
have an agency as you are doingright now, like that's not going
to solve the problem.
The problem is going to besolved on social media.
So, with that said, I know thatwhen people are thinking about
doing business with me.
They're looking at the Morganknows this.
I mean, we fucking likesomewhere near the top of every
(32:34):
document that goes out to try toget somebody interested in what
is going on here is like it'sjust numbers.
It's just how many impressions,how many downloads, how many
followers.
That's it.
So if I could remove TikTok,which is the platform where I
have the least traction,altogether off that list, I
would love to do that, butthat's very selfish because and
(32:58):
this is the part that matters inthe photo on the article there
are people with picket signs infront of us then, or presumably
a government building, that saythings like don't ban TikTok.
I make a living on TikTok.
I am one of 170 million orbillion 170 million users of
(33:19):
TikTok in the United States.
If these things disappear,these are economies, man Like
people are already polar.
People are already struggling.
People are already unable topay their loans off.
Like this is my sister is anauthor.
She's a lawyer as well, butlike her medium is Twitter.
(33:39):
If Elon Musk destroys Twitterand it disappears, that's really
bad for her.
If Instagram disappearedtomorrow, I would be scrambling,
trying to find another way totalk to my audience because I
need to do business with them.
If TikTok goes away, I have,like actual friends who will not
be able to make a living andit's really, really, really bad.
And I guess their counterpointto that would be like well, is
(34:02):
that a greater threat to youknow?
Is that a greater threat to usthan what the Chinese government
could do with all of our data?
And I can't think that longterm man, like people have rent
due in two weeks, people havekids who need to eat tonight.
Like people have bills to payright this second.
So I guess I don't want TikTokto go away, even though
(34:27):
selfishly it would be nice forme.
Like I, it's scary when youremove channels for people to
connect to each other and feedthemselves without a middleman.
That's bad for us.
So that's how I feel aboutTikTok going away.
This has been Nothing butAnarchy.
(34:47):
This is a show that is outsidein Queens with dogs and we will
see you guys on Tuesday in thestudio.
That's it.
Okay, welcome to nothing but anarchy.
We're outside, we're in Queens,we are some minute matter of
minutes away from where I live.
We're in this giant field thatI usually bring penny to to
throw the ball, because it isliterally gigantic.
I can't really y'all can't seea pan around.
A pan around of it, right, thissecond.
(00:29):
But anyway, all right, let's dothe show.
So, first thing on the dockethere Kanye West has a number one
song on Billboard.
It is his first time having anumber one charting, not a
number one hip hop song, not anumber one R&B song.
Like a number.
He has the number one song inthe world as told by Billboard
(00:51):
and billboards algorithm thatdiscernments who has the biggest
show or song in the world isopaque.
Nobody outside of that room canbe certain about exactly what
it means to have the number onesong in the world, but like it's
a, it seems to be a big deal.
The reason why it's opaque isbecause it was always opaque,
but like it used to be, aboutstreams and, I believe, record
(01:14):
sales and, I'm sorry, notstreams radio plays and record
sales.
And now it has to factor instreams and those streams come
from everywhere.
They come from Spotify, appleMusic, tiktok, instagram.
So like having the number onesong in the world means your
song is big in all of thosemediums.
Why this is noteworthy.
(01:34):
Actually, before I even say that, this reminds me of something
in college, which was that Iused to write on the newspaper
in college obviously because I'ma nerd and there was this thing
that we would release as apaper every week or so two weeks
, which was called 20 questions,and it would be these 20
(01:57):
esoteric questions about goingson and it would be positive on
campus and at Morehouse andSpelman and Clark, and it would
posit different theories aboutwhat's up with certain people.
It would be messy, it would bespicy, it would be like really
pointed and sometimes mean, andbecause I was like at the, at
(02:19):
when I got all the way to, youknow, probably my junior year, I
was like number two or numberthree on the paper and the paper
Wow, this sounds so old.
Morgan, did you guys have acollege newspaper?
Yeah, we did.
Okay, word.
Did it actually have physicalcopies?
Yeah, okay, word.
Well, so it's not in the calf,yeah, so all right.
(02:43):
This thing used to happen where, because people knew that I was
on the paper and very much inlike the inner circle of the
paper, where when somethingwould come out, it would be some
pretty spicy shit on there,like it would get into people's
relationships, people's sexualidentity, people's future,
people's money.
(03:03):
Like it would really go thereand every time something would
come out that was regardingsomebody I was close to, people
would it could get a littlespicy.
One time I was at a party andthere was a girl there.
We were all outside the party,we were like about to get into a
bunch of cars and drive to thenext spot and there was a girl
(03:25):
there who I was close friendswith I'm saying a girl because
we were like 20, 19 years oldand she was super drunk and she
slipped and fell and she hurtherself and I didn't have
anything to do with her slippingand falling and hurting herself
and it found its way into 20questions and I didn't put it
there and I remember for likesix months after that happened
(03:47):
she and her smaller circle offriends were very icy with me
and I didn't know why.
Like I had no idea I was there.
I was helping her when theincident occurred, like I didn't
know what it was, and what itturned out to be was that they
thought I was responsible forputting her on blast with that
and making her look like a lushin front of our campus.
And I didn't.
(04:09):
And the truth in fact is andthis is only interesting to
people who I went to collegewith I never knew who wrote 20
questions.
I still to this moment, don'tknow who wrote 20 questions,
which is crazy because I wasbasically damn near like the
editor in chief of the paper.
So I don't know how they werewritten, I don't know how they
got in there, I don't know whosubmitted them, whatever.
I'm saying that because there isan intentional power that
(04:32):
publications what do you want tocall them?
Committees, academies preservefor themselves by not telling
you how the sausage gets made.
Like that is.
That is like almost theirintellectual property.
That is the leverage that theyhave to maintain prestige and
bargaining power over theindustries that they're in.
(04:53):
Obviously, there's the academyaround the Oscars that preserves
that power by not telling youexactly how you are supposed to
win.
The Grammys are like that.
Billboard is also like that.
Probably only a very smallgroup of people know exactly how
you get a number one top, anumber one charting song, and so
that can create the, that cancreate the feeling among the
(05:16):
rest of us that there is someblack magic afoot and that you
have to like kowtow to thepowers that be to get a number
one song.
That whole setup was to say thisKanye West Morgan wants me to
call him by his government name,which is now yay, but as I came
to know him, like as a fan andalso a little bit in IRL like
(05:39):
Kanye West is doing somethingthat you are not really allowed
to be able.
You're not, like we do so muchconspiracy, theorizing around
what you can and cannot get awaywith on this earth, and
especially in this country,because you're going to be boxed
out of this room.
These people are going to bemad at you.
You're not going to be able todo this.
(06:00):
You're not going to be able toplay in this, in this sport, and
like this dude, as anindependent artist with no label
behind him besides his own,which is formidable, so I don't
want to act like he as a labelis not powerful, but like this
dude, who has been outwardlyspewing anti-semitic rhetoric,
who has been outwardly uh,misogynistic, homophobic, like
(06:23):
he is doing the thing that Ithink has always been his
aspiration, which is, to excuseme, which is to be as brazen and
, in some cases, mean and andand like unfounded as a powerful
white man, without being boxedout of the rooms that he wants
(06:44):
to be boxed out of.
I'm watching it happen.
I didn't think he was, I didn'tthink it was possible.
He has transcended what I thinkI had my brain wrapped around
in terms of the power that anartist could have by themselves.
And obviously he doesn't workby himself.
He has a team around him, hehas faculties, he has buildings
(07:04):
that he leases and owns, he has,you know, connections all over
the planet, but like he is pokedin the eye the people who
you're not supposed to beallowed to poke in the eye and
he's getting away with itbecause still yet his art is at
the top of the top of the thing.
Okay, that's all premise.
Now I want to dig into it alittle bit.
Number one um, I listened toKanye's whole album when it came
(07:28):
out.
If Kanye West drops an album, Iwill pretty much always listen
to it because I want to know.
I have been studying the arc ofthis person so fastidiously
since I was 16 years old.
At one point it wasaspirational.
It was like I want to.
I want to be like this guy,which is to say, I want to have
(07:51):
the confidence in myself and inmy artistic ability to like play
with the biggest toys and makethe most impactful stuff.
Lately, it has transitioned towhere I'm really just now
watching out of voyeurism.
I think Kanye West is doing whathe set out to do, which was, it
(08:13):
seems like he wants us tobelieve that all the rules are
make-believe, like it seems likehe wants us to to reconsider
what we think are the boundaries.
Very specifically and asexample, it is so like laid into
(08:34):
the fabric of black culture andother cultures that, like you
do not insult Jewish people.
That is like that is a rule andlike hold everybody, I'm
working especially I'm sure youguys are very nervous with where
I'm going here.
All I am saying is like he ispointing out things that we have
shared to be so and he's pokingthem in the eye and he's
(08:55):
continuing to do the thing andI'm just like how?
Basically, I'm like how muchlonger can he get away with this
?
I'm not saying it's a goodthing to do, I'm not saying the
experiment that he's doing ispositive, but it's?
It's making me reconsider, likethe things that we fear and
accept to be so like.
Why do we do it?
He doesn't seem to have thatthing that makes you afraid of
(09:19):
the same stuff other people areafraid of.
I think he's afraid of his ownstuff, I think he's afraid of
being alone.
I think he's afraid of beingunheard, invisible, but he
doesn't seem to be afraid of thesame shit that makes me scared.
So I'm curious to see what's upwith that.
Okay, another layer here.
(09:39):
When I saw this story, when Isent this story to Morgan and
said hey, I want to talk aboutKanye going number one, she said
we should also talk about theperson that he fired who was
like his head of basically, hishead is publicity, sort of
almost, yeah, like head ofpromotion, head of community.
And so I dug into it and thatperson happens to be yes, jules.
(09:59):
And I will be honest, like thefirst place, kanye surrounds him
with people who are, who are,the internet.
Like that is his.
He has married people who arethe internet he is, he staffs
himself by people who are theinternet.
The first connotation I had toyes, jules was that, yes, jules
(10:20):
had a sex tape.
That's the first thing Iremembered about yes Jules when
her name, I was like, who isthis person again, what's this
name?
And I remember like eight yearsago it was floating around the
internet and that was my firsttime of knowing that this person
existed.
And how she existed was thatshe was sort of like the
original Bobby Altaff, like shewas on Snapchat interviewing
(10:42):
black rappers affecting black.
I think she wore a shirt thathad the N word on it and there
was this whole swirl around thisperson which was like is she
black?
Is she not?
What is she doing around ourculture?
And like what is and what isher purpose here?
I have not been aware of yesJules since that moment until
(11:03):
today, when Morgan said weshould also talk about the
person that has been running hispublicity around this
particular song.
So I went and looked and a partof what's happening right now is
that Kanye has fired thisperson because she has inside
(11:26):
Kanye's camp.
He has a far alt right.
I guess COO basically is whatthis guy's job is.
What's his name?
Morgan?
It's like the Milo's guy.
Okay, we don't know how topronounce his last name.
His first name was Milo.
This is excellent journalism byus.
The point is that, yes, julesis in a like a standoff with
(11:50):
this guy because, as it seems,they both were in the inner
inner, inner circle with Kanye.
Yes, jules has published andtweeted and sent out like
screenshots of their text group.
Here's this guy and Kanye.
This is ridiculous.
This is like an ad-lib and amad love.
What I see there in those textmessages that she has published,
(12:12):
is that Kanye continues to besurrounded by people who, at
this point, are like Kanye,which means they look completely
vapid and empty of anythingother than the pursuit of more
(12:34):
power, influence, ways todominate other people, like ways
to take out their angryviciousness on others, ways to
poke at the insecurities ofother people to mirror their own
.
I don't know if I have alanding point, because this is
(12:56):
like still in the middle ofwhere it's at, which is to say,
like Kanye is back at number one, at the top of this whole thing
.
That just comes as a reminderto me that, over and over and
over again, we just can't quitKanye and we just keep voting
for Kanye.
That's all I got.
All right, okay, this is not abacktrack, this is just.
(13:21):
This is now that I have had 30seconds to process it.
Like, talking about Kanye justgives me internet brain.
I'm just like what are we eventalking about?
Like what?
I'm like what, the what?
Like yes, jewels involved.
Like what the fuck is evengoing on?
It's very difficult to talkabout guy in a way that feels
(13:45):
like he's just like.
It's just like what.
It's just a kaleidoscope ofdumbness.
Okay, all right, sorry aboutblack Twitter.
Okay, morgan smiling already,but what?
Alright, let's start here.
I want Morgan to share a couplethings.
You'll just be a voice behindthe screen, like okay.
The first thing is this Morgan,we are okay, let me set the
(14:08):
stage.
There's a black everybodyprobably knows this, but there's
a black Twitter documentarycoming out.
It comes out.
I think this isn't promo, I'mnot saying when it comes out,
but there's a black Twitter doccoming out.
Princess Penny, who was theshowrunner of insecure, is the
filmmaker.
It is featuring the voices ofseveral Black Celebrities,
(14:29):
voices you know, across mediumsor industries.
I saw Jamel Hill is involved.
Kid fury is involved Apparently, like allegedly, or apparently
because of the trailers and shit.
I have no, I haven't confirmedany of that.
But here's what I want to start.
Okay, because I do think thatas, as a community evolves here
(14:54):
within this show, and also aspeople get to know each other
and get to know, like, yourvoice.
I Think a part of what is funand interesting about
conversation is the ways that wePredict each other's points of
view, and Morgan and I have nowspent almost a year together,
like in this show.
(15:15):
We've known each other foralmost two years probably now,
or maybe over two years now, butwe've really got, we're really
getting to know each otherthrough the duration of this
show.
It's been almost a year, almosta year exactly.
At this point, morgan, I wantto know two things.
We talked briefly this morning,but like okay.
One, what do you think aboutthe black Twitter documentary,
(15:36):
which already has, like Peoplehave already logged so many
points of view on it and it'snot out?
Yeah, what do you think aboutit?
And the number two is what doyou think I think about it,
because you seem to beanticipating my point of view.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Okay, what I think about it is.
I Think that I Don't know, likeyou said, it hasn't come out
yet.
I think the premise isinteresting because Black
Twitter has been such a hugephenomenon in culture and, like
(16:10):
you know, opinions that likespark larger conversations and
Comedy like humor yeah, that adocuseries about it could be
cool, because I feel like mediaand Film, tv and all that stuff
does document like the currentplaces that we're in and might
(16:33):
be the only source of Accuratehistory in a way, possibly.
Um, so I think doing adocuseries on something as huge
as black Twitter it's cool, itdefinitely does feel like it
would be a huge feat, but Iwould give it like a chance,
like I would like be interestedin seeing it and so seeing
everybody kind of be hesitantabout it from the jump, despite
(16:58):
the fact that, like it's notlike a white person's thinking
you, like it's Prince Penny,like which I don't know he might
have controversy, I don't know.
But, um, the point is I'm likeI'm giving it a, not a chance.
Yeah when I read the article yousent me, there was a very valid
thing in there which was Aboutwho is this for, mm-hmm, and
(17:20):
that's something that you havetalked about before.
Yeah, through your ownexperiences.
Yes so I figured, based off ofyou sending me that and your
history, some sort of responsearound who this is for going
through the washer machine ofthe people at Hulu, or whoever
else is behind this.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Um, and that it's going to be that.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
That's what you predict.
So something that you said I, Imean, I have infinity things to
say about this.
So Something that you said tome on the phone that I really I,
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
(18:39):
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I
(19:21):
, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I,
(20:04):
I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I.
That's a part of the criticismthat has already started around
(20:24):
this black Twitter doc is thatpeople who feel like they were
actually a part of it and are,if it still exists, feel miffed
because the faces that they'reseeing and the person who's
making the film do not reflectto them who they thought to be
that who comprise that community.
I want to be super duper clearon this, and I think you and I
(20:49):
are both in this same buckethere.
I am a total outsider on thisconversation.
Like I am not a part of blackTwitter, like I can, I barely
tweet because it's not a mediumthat I find enjoyable personally
, like it's not a medium that Idon't love seeing people's.
I don't scroll TikTok and Idon't scroll Twitter because I
(21:12):
don't love seeing people's likequick, little shot off quips and
stuff like that.
Like it gives me internet brain, like it gives me it's a little
overwhelming, and when I seesomething that feels really mean
and it stings me, I don't havethe ability to just jump off of
it that quickly.
I have to now, like I wouldn'tMorgan say she's like, because
(21:33):
I'm a man and I have a lot of Ithink I have a lot of feelings.
Like, yeah, I have a lot offeelings.
So, okay, there's the firstlayer, which is like, indeed,
yes, morgan, we cannot doanything without criticism from
our own people.
That's a fact.
I also want to add that art isgoing to be criticized.
(21:59):
Like you can't.
Like I saw Princess Penny putout a statement on Twitter that
was basically like come on, youguys don't trust me to handle
this thing.
I've been in the culture for 20years doing this, blah, blah,
blah and one it just goes toshow you like people do not know
show runners like Princess, Iknow you think we should all
know and trust you, but, likedog, we don't know you.
(22:20):
Like your show runner, you knowwhat I mean.
Like the town knows you,hollywood knows you by your name
because of insecure, but likewe don't know you.
Second is the fact that there'sthis much of a balloon already
of criticism and buzz aroundwhat you're going to release.
That is a gift to you.
Like that is going to bringeyeballs and attention and a
(22:42):
larger conversation, and you'regoing to have a chance to ride
that conversation and, in someways, probably own that
conversation around this thing.
This is the biggest one for me,though, this is the big one Do
I think it's going to be good.
I think the conversation aroundit is going to be more
(23:03):
interesting than the documentaryitself.
I say that having seen Kid Furynotwithstanding, because he is
very sharp and very interesting.
I've seen some of the names andfaces that are going to be in
the dock, and they are faces andnames that I usually scroll
past because and this is meta,is a meta reflection of the dock
(23:24):
itself because they are peoplewho I find, when they use their
voices and I'm not going to namenames they're always coming at
like the 70% point on thetimeline of those conversations.
They're late, they're never infront, they're never first, it's
never a new, fresh point ofview.
It's like they are chroniclingwhat the point of views already
(23:47):
are that are being reflectedaround blackness and that has
been.
Generally speaking, myconversation or my level of
engagement or observation withBlack Twitter itself is that I
don't feel represented by BlackTwitter.
I don't feel like theconversation that's happening
there is leading theconversation that's happening
(24:10):
around black circles.
I feel like, and I have aproblem with anything that
presents itself as the blackthing that doesn't truly include
all of them, no matter howfucking pale, mixed like African
, whatever the fuck, whateverway you use nerdy white,
(24:33):
affecting like, whatever way youuse to discredit somebody's
blackness, like they're blackand if their voice is not a part
of the, if their voice is notreflected in some way in this
community and in this doc, thenit doesn't really actually
represent us.
And so, like I still see BlackTwitter as something over there,
it has a tone that I don'tpersonally appreciate.
(24:56):
It has a tone that is, it has atone that is shrill.
It has a tone that is sometimesmean on purpose.
It has a tone that is sometimeslike degenerative on purpose,
and I can like you guys know mytone like I can get mean if I
want to.
Like I can get spicy, but it'snot, like it is not meant, with
(25:18):
the attention, to degrade firstand foremost like myself and
then and then like other peoplelike me.
I think that's.
I think that's counter to thepoint.
So will I watch this documentary?
Probably only if some peoplethat I like tell me to watch it
and think that it's really good.
But do I think it reflects,like actually, what is Black
(25:41):
Twitter?
I don't see how it.
I don't see how it can.
The last thing I got to say isjust like y'all, we are making
documentaries about Twitter.
This is really we are like theinternet is just really like
floating away on us.
Like it is.
Just it is become such a navalgazing, meta, house of mirrors
(26:05):
that like to take this seriouslyis counterproductive, in my
opinion.
The last thing I want to sayhere is like I know there is a
sentiment out there that somepeople are saying, well, like
hey, a black person is directingit, it's going to have a bunch
of black people that get checksfrom it, you know, etc.
(26:25):
Etc, etc.
This is going to be a longerconversation as I roll out my
book, but like that doesn't meannothing to me anymore.
Like that doesn't.
Like like I'm not just out herelike yo, I just want to see all
black folks get rich.
I want to see everybodytalented and with a moral
(26:49):
compass and like a genuinelydecent human being get after it.
And like I don't know thesepeople so I'm not just going to
like be rooting for their shit,no matter what.
That's how I feel.
There's an adjective I forgot touse that describes what I feel
around black Twitter and again,I'm an outsider like I.
(27:10):
It only reaches me when itreaches me, but it feels in that
prism.
It feels mean, it feels shrilland it feels performative.
Now, I'm not gonna try togatekeep, but like when I see
the people and the voices thatare meant to represent Black
(27:31):
Twitter, when I am outside inreal life around, I know I'm
like there's nobody that knowsmore niggas than me on Earth.
I'm the most nigga-knowingperson in the whole wide world.
That should probably go in thereal like I.
My life is comprised of everydifferent type of Black person.
Okay, and when we I don't wantto say when we when I see those
(27:56):
Black Twitter people.
Irl.
They are the ones observing therest of culture, like they are
the ones watching from thecorner to see what does.
What do Black people do so thatthey can go tweet it?
And that's that's where I feellike do we need something to
celebrate that faction?
(28:17):
Like we're not talking aboutactivists, we're not talking
about like artists, I'm nottalking about like people that
actually move this thing alongand help us get somewhere.
I'm talking about people whoobserve and tweet.
That's not the same as a writer,alright, so I'm going to take
(28:37):
what Morgan just told me and tryto parse it down into the most
basic language that I canunderstand, which is a bill has
been passed to Band TikTokBecause there are concerns that
the Chinese government could usedata that they are getting from
(28:58):
TikTok to cause a threat to theUnited States.
And the, I guess like what'sbeing offered as tender is like
if you want TikTok to continueto exist in this country, you
have to sell it.
They're holding company thatowns TikTok will have to sell it
(29:19):
.
Here's what I see.
I see a couple things.
Tiktok is at war with musiclabels right now, specifically
Universal, I want to sayUniversal Music Group.
Universal Music Group removedTikTok songs from.
I'm sorry, universal MusicGroup removed Universal songs
(29:40):
from TikTok over money disputes.
This smells of super wealthypeople moving the world around.
It smells of super wealthypeople being at war with each
other and playing leverage gameswith each other.
If I'm honest, here's, butbecause I'm not one of them,
(30:02):
here's the part that I careabout.
One of my friends texted methis morning and said you care
about what's going on with thisTikTok thing?
Texting me and Tim Veryselfishly.
My first thought was and I havefelt this way for some time I
hope TikTok goes away, becauseall my traction is on Instagram
(30:28):
and I'm not just being a prickto say that.
What I mean by that is trulythis I just had a two hour long
workshop yesterday with a poetwho is trying to get somewhere
in the business of creativity,and maybe 45 minutes into our
session together, she was likedamn, this whole conversation is
(30:49):
going to be about social media,isn't it?
And I was like yes, because ifyou want to sit with me and have
a one on one sort of selfdiscovery session to talk about
how you tap in with yourself,how you figure out what you have
to say, how you figure out howto craft it into whatever medium
(31:11):
it's supposed to take.
I promise you I will talk toyou for 10 hours about that.
There's nothing I love andexcites me more.
Hi, sweetie, hi Booger, okay,hi, there's nothing that I love
and that excites me more.
Sorry, there's a dog.
We got to wait.
Hi, puppy, bye, you're thelittle best.
(31:31):
There's nothing I love and thatexcites me more.
However, if you are a workingcreative, if you are a creative
person who already has thecapacity to like, make something
artistic, the rest of the gameis going to be commerce, and
commerce happens on social media.
(31:52):
The person who I was having aconversation with and I won't
divulge too much, I don't wantto, you know, break any privacy
but, like, one of the things shewanted to talk about was
getting signed in an agency, andI want to say definitively to
anybody who has that on theirvision board like you will be
doing just as much, if not more,work selling yourself once you
(32:13):
have an agency as you are doingright now, like that's not going
to solve the problem.
The problem is going to besolved on social media.
So, with that said, I know thatwhen people are thinking about
doing business with me.
They're looking at the Morganknows this.
I mean, we fucking likesomewhere near the top of every
(32:34):
document that goes out to try toget somebody interested in what
is going on here is like it'sjust numbers.
It's just how many impressions,how many downloads, how many
followers.
That's it.
So if I could remove TikTok,which is the platform where I
have the least traction,altogether off that list, I
would love to do that, butthat's very selfish because and
(32:58):
this is the part that matters inthe photo on the article there
are people with picket signs infront of us then, or presumably
a government building, that saythings like don't ban TikTok.
I make a living on TikTok.
I am one of 170 million orbillion 170 million users of
(33:19):
TikTok in the United States.
If these things disappear,these are economies, man Like
people are already polar.
People are already struggling.
People are already unable topay their loans off.
Like this is my sister is anauthor.
She's a lawyer as well, butlike her medium is Twitter.
(33:39):
If Elon Musk destroys Twitterand it disappears, that's really
bad for her.
If Instagram disappearedtomorrow, I would be scrambling,
trying to find another way totalk to my audience because I
need to do business with them.
If TikTok goes away, I have,like actual friends who will not
be able to make a living andit's really, really, really bad.
And I guess their counterpointto that would be like well, is
(34:02):
that a greater threat to youknow?
Is that a greater threat to usthan what the Chinese government
could do with all of our data?
And I can't think that longterm man, like people have rent
due in two weeks, people havekids who need to eat tonight.
Like people have bills to payright this second.
So I guess I don't want TikTokto go away, even though
(34:27):
selfishly it would be nice forme.
Like I, it's scary when youremove channels for people to
connect to each other and feedthemselves without a middleman.
That's bad for us.
So that's how I feel aboutTikTok going away.
This has been Nothing butAnarchy.
(34:47):
This is a show that is outsidein Queens with dogs and we will
see you guys on Tuesday in thestudio.
That's it.
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