Tune in Tuesdays and Thursdays at 12PM ET to watch the show live on Youtube. Follow @chadsand on Instagram and subscribe to the Nothing But Anarchy Youtube channel for full interviews and more anarchy!
Executive Produced by: Chad Sanders
Produced by: Morgan Williams
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Nothing but Anarchy.
This is episode number 99.
Wow, okay, so we have made italmost to a year.
It's a year on Tuesday, it's ayear today.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
No, it's a year today .
It's a year today, we've madeit to a year of this show.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We have done a year.
On Tuesday, dear, today it's ayear.
Today it's a year.
Today we've made it to a yearof this show, we have done a
year's worth of this show and weare coming up upon episode
number 100, which is on Tuesday.
Um, more on that.
My dog is trying to get in tothe office and it's fine.
I don't know, I don't.
They just it's just fine, itjust is what?
Fine, I don't know, I don't,it's just fine, it just is what
it is.
I don't know how that sounded.
(00:47):
We got some stuff to talk abouttoday.
There's a lot to talk abouttoday.
I am incapable of focusingwhile burying the lead, so I'm
going to start with that.
We are coming up on our 100thepisode of Nothing but Anarchy a
year today to date, as Imentioned, but Anarchy, a year
(01:09):
today to date, as I mentioned.
And what is going to happen onepisode 100 is that is going to
wrap season one of Nothing butAnarchy.
This is the only thing that Iknow of that does 100 episodes
in a season, and there's a fewreasons for that, and so I'm
going to let you guys under thehood on that, because I think
that's what we do on this showand I think it's important to be
(01:31):
forthcoming in that way.
There's probably a hundredreasons for them, but I'll give
you, guys, the big reasons.
Number one is that it takes alot out of you to.
It takes a lot out of us toself-produce a show for a year,
(01:52):
um, including travel,preparation, studio costs,
production costs, content costs,um, like a regular churn of
trying to find things to talkabout, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera.
And we are people and, likelike anything, um, I think it is
(02:13):
worthwhile to take a breath andtake a break so that you can do
your best work when you show upto work and so that you're not
like, I don't know, smoking oncigarette ashes is the way that
I think about it.
Like sometimes where, when Iwatch what people are doing and
saying, and the ones who areless inspiring to me are the
(02:36):
ones who are trying to make itwork, just to make it work so
they can show up and get theircheck, and that doesn't feel
good, and we don't show up andget a check.
So there's that too.
Number two this was aninteresting, so I would
encapsulate that entire one as,like it's just time.
(02:56):
It's time to take a breath andtake a break.
I have a lot of shit going on.
Morgan has a lot of shit goingon.
We both have 50-11 jobs.
Lot of shit going on.
Morgan has a lot of shit goingon.
We both have 50, 11 jobs.
I have a book coming out soonand there's a lot that requires
my focus as I get ready for saidbook to come out.
And so we got to take a breakfor a second.
We got to take a break for Idon't know how long of a second,
(03:17):
but we got to take a break.
Second thing this one is more uh, this one is more uh
entertaining to me.
So me and morgan were planningto have a.
Me and morgan were planning tohave like a catch-up, like a um
sit down, catch-up, meeting.
You know, morgan and I are likealways running, running,
(03:40):
running, texting, calling,seeing each other in the studio.
You, you know, making thingshappen on the fly, like, okay,
we want to try, this thing Gotto execute.
Okay, we want to try to get aninfluencer.
Oh, I just got my coffeepackage, morgan, today, so I can
drink the coffee and thenadvertise it.
We're like trying to make dealshappen.
We're trying to make stuffhappen.
(04:01):
We're doing all the things andwe rarely get a chance to like
sit down and, you know, talkface to face and just take stock
of everything and decide whatdirection we're going to go with
things.
We were supposed to do that, Ithought, wednesday of this week,
and after our Tuesday show,morgan says to me I'm
(04:25):
paraphrasing hey, do you want tohave that catch up call later
today?
And I like to think of myselfas an intuitive person,
especially when it comes topeople who I am close to, and
something made me feel likeMorgan is going to drop some
(04:52):
kind of a bomb on me, or not.
Not a bomb exactly, but there'ssomething Morgan wants to say
that will be said in thisconversation, and this is not
just like a housekeeping catchup.
Morgan, you're playing withyour hair, are you nervous?
No, this is just funny to hearyou To see how I was processing
it.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Can you try holding the mic closer?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
How's that Better?
Yeah, I knew there wassomething that Morgan wanted to
say.
I will give more context tothis.
This is this job, and by thisjob I mean all of this writing,
tv writing, books, makingpodcasts, making things that are
(05:35):
like each one is its own,individual, encapsulated world,
world.
Um, think of these as likelittle spaceships, each one of
them and at different times.
There are different people whocome onto a spaceship, do
maintenance, drive it, give itdirections, you know, clean the
(05:58):
inside of it, design differentparts of it whatever, co-pilot
it, pilot it whatever.
And then people leave andsometimes, like the spaceship
lands, sometimes like it keepsgoing, but with a different crew
, whatever.
As an example, like I was apart of the Rapshit spaceship
for one season of its life andthen the ship, the spaceship,
(06:24):
landed and asked me to pleasekindly step off, and then it
took back into flight as aspaceship with a slightly
different crew, whatever.
So for this particularspaceship, like I think, for its
life to continue like we willprobably need to tinker with the
(06:46):
crew and with the pieces andetc.
Etc.
Etc.
And we gotta take a breath forit.
But anyway, when Morgan told methere was something that she
what Morgan asked me can wecatch up?
I just had this feeling thatwhat would follow would could be
Morgan saying like hey, I needto take a break here, um, with
(07:07):
this.
I also just to tell you guys,like emotionally, um, I am
processing the feeling of,frankly, just like losing people
.
Um, I just did a whole damnproject on losing somebody from
my high school life.
I was recently in arelationship that I am no longer
(07:29):
in.
Somebody just quit on me twoseconds ago on a different
project entirely.
I am coming to grips with thevery cliche adage that, like you
(07:50):
know, people in your life areseasons.
They come into your life, theyleave it, they leave your life,
or sometimes they come in andthey stay for a long time or
forever.
Anyway, all that said, I waslike I went for a walk and I
took Penny and I called a friendof mine who advises me on a lot
that I do.
He's, I would call him like myexecutive coach, basically in,
among other things, and I calledhim literally.
(08:15):
I called him and I was likeMorgan wants to have a
conversation this afternoon.
I think it could be about hereither wanting to step off of
the ship or find another placeto be on the ship.
And what I said to him was likeI'm going to ask Morgan what
she wants, because that's mostimportant, because I feel like
(08:38):
Morgan, as most people are, likethey do, she does her best work
with what is exciting andwhat's inspiring to her.
But then I was like but I alsogot to figure out what I want
and it was opaque to me, it wasunclear to me, what do I want?
So we talked it out, we laidout all the pieces of like what
(08:59):
I have going on right now, havegoing on right now book is
coming out.
I have tv pitches that areconstantly going, you know, into
the conveyor belt to go throughmy agents and go out to the
networks to see if we can getbites.
I now this is like I guess Imean I have an influencer.
(09:23):
Does that make me an influencer, morgan?
Morgan nods her head.
Yes, she nods it, so, so,swiftly and easily.
She nods her head yes, thankyou for our Gen Z representative
to not feel gross about callingme an influencer.
(09:57):
There's, there's.
You know, I'm trying to do morepublic speaking.
I'm trying to like also sort ofmentor and coach other people
into this industry.
I'm making advertisements.
There's a lot.
There's just a lot of shitthat's going on around here and
I want to lay it all out withthis person who I was talking to
, so that I could think tomyself, okay, well, like, unless
Morgan is just saying she'sready to step away altogether,
(10:17):
like maybe there is somethingelse here that Morgan would feel
excited about.
And it took the laying out ofall of that, for what came to
mind to me, like actually towardthe end of the conversation,
was, like you know, what I havebeen doing, the like process of
pitching and writing up pitchesand taking them out and taking
(10:40):
them to my agents.
I've been doing that basicallyalone for like seven or eight
years, taking them to my agents.
I've been doing that basicallyalone for like seven or eight
years, and I don't really lovedoing it alone.
And Morgan, as her stated goal,wants to be a showrunner and
(11:07):
wants to make TV and she hasfantastic design skills and
creative skills and I thinkshe's like a really talented you
know business person.
I guess like she's someone whoknows how to talk to people and
make people feel comfortable,whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
So call morgan when I get backin the house and I'm like hey,
morgan, um, okay, like know,let's talk about the show, but
first can we talk about justlike everything.
(11:28):
Can we just take a look at thedesign of everything that's here
and what's going on here andthen just like make sure that we
are doing what we want to bedoing and what makes sense here?
And what followed was I have totruncate this because it was
like an hour-long conversationbut I thought we had a very easy
(11:52):
and very like positive, healthy, easy conversation.
That was just like Morgan isgoing to slowly Well, not even
that slowly Morgan is going tothoughtfully step away from this
particular role and basicallylike lead up, you know,
(12:16):
development.
I guess that's what the role is.
I guess that's what the thingis like development and some
other things like Morgan does.
Morgan helps me with a lot.
She partners with me a lot.
Morgan helps me with a lot.
She partners with me a lot.
Morgan also is like a captain.
She's like a team leader typeof person.
She's like a you know she canrally the troops and so she's
going to be doing some otherstuff like that with me.
(12:38):
I am going to be transitioningthis brand probably into
something else.
There's some stuff that I wantto do on Tik TOK to grow my
following there.
There's some other stuff I wantto do on Instagram.
That's going to be like rolloutfor my book, and so I think
we'll probably be transitioningthe brand there and then
eventually, when we have someoneelse to step back into the role
(13:00):
of like really head downproducing this show, um, we will
, will.
We will pick it back up for aseason two, which maybe won't be
100 episodes long, but maybelike 50 or 35 or something like
that.
So, uh, morgan, this is thepart that I wanted to check in
on.
What were your, I would like toknow what was inside your head
(13:23):
leading up to the conversationthat we had yesterday, and what
sort of emotional processinghave you been doing recently in
preparation of that conversation, for that conversation?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
um, I would say I had been like thinking about that
conversation for like months,but I didn't know how to.
I don't know.
I like I was feeling uneasyabout it, um, just because I
didn't know how you were gonnareact, or like more.
(13:57):
So just what would happen, likewith the show, like I didn't.
What I didn't want is for itnot to happen because I wasn't
involved.
That's a shitty feeling.
So I was like thinking aboutthat and then, I don't know,
like a couple of weeks ago, itjust kind of all like aligned.
(14:19):
I feel like in this type of work, where you're constantly saying
yes and no to things, you haveto be pretty aligned within
yourself.
And I stopped being likeanxious about it.
Well, I was anxious abouttalking to you about it.
I really just like wanted toget because, once I knew it felt
like I was keeping somethingfrom you and I was like I just
need to say it um.
(14:40):
But but aside from that, theactual like like saying that I,
you know, wanted to move out ofthis role, um felt a lot.
I felt good about it, like Ifelt very like at peace about it
because it just felt like theright thing um to do and like so
(15:02):
.
So, yeah, I think that that's'slike, but it took me a while to
like marinate on it and kind ofpros and cons it out, um, but
yeah what did you think would bethe worst case scenario for how
the conversation would proceed?
um, I think the worst casescenario I don't even know, I
(15:29):
mean, I guess, like, I guess theworst case scenario for me
would have been you saying likeokay, we're gonna try to like
find somebody and like and stilldo this, and then that taking
forever, and then we neveractually migrating out.
(15:50):
I think that would have beenthe worst case scenario, because
then that would have, like Idon't know, just taken a turn
and then like probably wouldn'thave been good and yeah.
So I think that.
But I don't think I neverimagined you like screaming at
(16:11):
me or being like.
That never crossed my mind.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
But yeah, okay, good, yeah, that was never gonna
happen.
Like I think life is funny inthat.
Well, it's just.
Sometimes I feel like everybodyhas like a sense of we're like
fish, like we're like a schoolof fish, like everyone has an
(16:35):
intuition of where the school isat and where the school is
going and where it's moving.
And sometimes those things getblocked, sometimes that
intuition gets blocked, and itcan be blocked for a lot of
reasons.
It can be blocked because ofdenial you just don't want
something to be so, so yourefuse to see it.
It can be blocked because ofavoidance, where you know it's
(16:58):
so, but you just try to steerthe car in another direction,
even though you're no, you'regoing uphill.
Um fear and I don't know.
Self-consciousness, like, um,insecurity, like whatever.
I think, uh, and then I'm gonnastop talking about this, but I
(17:19):
just I am this person.
If I go to a party, I must callmy friends the next day and be
like, let's talk about the party.
Like I must, if somethinghappens.
I must, the next day, talk tomy friends and say like wasn't
that thing so crazy?
Like did you hear the personsay this?
What do you think about this?
What do you think about thisand on all of this, you know the
(17:40):
people who I admire, like thepeople that I really look up to,
even the people who I don'tthink are good people but who I
look up to from like aprofessional sense, like I'm not
even going to say their names,because some of them I just
don't want to promote what theydo, because some of them I just
don't want to promote what theydo.
But what I like about them is,as people put it, like they play
(18:01):
the long-term game with theirpeople, like you play the
long-term game with your people,you play the long-term game
with your projects.
I am starting to feel less andless of, I would say.
Up until literally now, I feltsuch an intense urgency to get
(18:22):
everything done and geteverything out at one time, and
now that I'm old, now that I'veturned 36, I'm like, well,
anything I didn't get donealready I'm not getting done by
the time I turned 35.
So now maybe I can take abreath and like, look at the
long term vision here.
And I don't know.
I just think there's way morecool shit that we have to do.
(18:42):
And for those who love this showand this is really the
important part here, not me andMorgan's feelings.
The important part here is,like, in a short amount of time
you know a year sounds like along time, but it's really a
short amount of time in thelifespan of media we have
amassed, like we have broughttogether a community of people
(19:06):
who really have shown up forthis show, who really listen to
this show.
Some people listen to this showmultiple times when it comes
out.
There are people who downloadthis show every single time it
comes out, who listen to itimmediately, who give us their
(19:26):
weekend hours, who give us hourswith their family, who listen
to it with their partner.
Like that is that is what Ilove about this job.
That is what I want to spend mylife doing is bringing together
communities like this to havereal conversation and also to
like just have a good time witheach other.
Like we like get a break fromthe like the seriousness of
(19:49):
everything you know and the the,the proposed urgency of
everything, and I mean I don'tlike just to shout out a few
like TJ and Ashil came to NewYork to be in the studio with us
when we were, like, really justbeginning.
Obviously, josh has been herefor every step of the way.
My sister, shannon, has beenboth a guest on the show and
(20:13):
also probably our most avidlistener, listening to every
single episode of this thing.
Um justin lovett, uh and leonlistened to, as far as I know,
pretty much every single episodeof this thing.
My god brother, jonathan cooper, has been has been a big
supporter of the show.
Charday, who came in, who wasin studio with us and who also
listens to the show regularly.
(20:33):
Um brian shields, who was aguest on the show for like the
first 30 episodes.
He was like a caller foreverything.
Um melissa ingram, whoobviously like brought us into
um, what was that shit called?
You know?
Who brought us into amp andquincy, who listens to the show
(20:54):
and also who connected me tomelissa to help us get this
thing going and on the rails.
Luigi, who has been cutting allthe content and like really
helping us have an aesthetic onour digital presence.
Charlotte, who's been in, who Iwas gonna say, david Atkinson is
like David Atkinson who's allwho always shows up and who
(21:16):
showed up for us at the liveshow.
All 50 people who bought all 50tickets for the live show,
including my parents, umshanklin hall, which gave us a
venue for the live show.
Uh, fucking tia, who dj'd forboth the launch party and the
live show.
Everybody that showed up forthe launch party, jeff Lee, jeff
(21:36):
Lee, who I've known almost myentire life, who I went to
church with, high school, withCub Scouts, all that basketball
teams, and these are just thepeople I know.
I guess I also want to say youknow, we see the numbers.
There's obviously people outthere who oh damn, we're
forgetting someone else KendraYesra yes, definitely kendra,
(21:57):
who showed up for us.
Jasmine ellis cooper, whoshowed up, who started off as a
fan of the show, came to thelaunch party, then came on, then
came as a guest, then we wentto our fucking baby shower.
Um, but no, I'm forgetting umhillary hillary as well, who
used to be at every amp show.
He was a caller all the time.
I mean literally, like, as I'msaying it out loud, I'm
(22:19):
recognizing these are likethey're.
This show has touched thousandsof people, um, I would say even
at a high touch way, like atleast a hundred people have been
around it, like callers show up, people who shut up for live
shows, people, people who camein studio, thank you.
Like this has been, I would saythis show has shown me and
(22:46):
proven to me I always hoped thatI would be able to build
something that was meaningfuland that touched people and that
actually had legs, like thatactually could grow without a
(23:06):
studio, an agent, an executive,a financier, like something that
was truly ours and that trulynobody else could tell us what
it needed to be or how it neededto be.
And we have now built thefoundation of that here with the
show over the course of 100episodes.
(23:27):
And so, last thing I want to saythis just became a speech.
It's what a weird episode um is.
Just thank you to all of y'allwho have shown up over and over
and over and over and over againfor the show, because you guys
have given me the thing that ismost valuable to all of us as
creatives, which is confidencethat, like we oh wow, we can do
(23:49):
this.
So now Tuesday will be episode100.
No idea what we're going totalk about on Tuesday.
Then we will close the book onseason one and we will be back
to you with season two somepoint in the near to mid future.
I mean, I'm thinking I'llprobably want to relaunch around
(24:09):
the time that my book comes out, which is in February, and
start the conversation aroundwhat's in that book, because I
think it's going to be veryspicy and I think it's going to
have some interestingconversations.
The book, by the way, is calledhow to Sell Out, and we can go
to break for a quick second andthen come back and we're going
to talk about something that'shappening Someone who I think is
(24:35):
an interesting character studyfor the concept of how to sell
out.
So thanks y'all, love y'all.
We'll be back in two seconds.
I don't know why I'm saying thatthere's no one here live.
This is a podcast recording,but keep it in because it's
funny.
All y'all you guys know whereto find me.
I'm at Chad Sand on Instagram.
We're going to be reaching outto you guys with a couple other
(24:57):
things via email.
We're not going anywhere, butjust because we're not going to
talk to you guys every Tuesdayand Thursday, as we have for the
last year, for a few months orhowever long, I just want to say
thank you.
So thank you.
Now we're going to go away Notreally, but we're going to talk
about Emmanuel Acho in a second,because that's the point of the
show.
(25:17):
So I was living my life.
You know what?
I forgot to add one other thing, which is it doesn't have to be
this way.
So I don't want to bediscouraging to anybody who
wants to do this job, but thisis a very quick backtrack.
It's expensive, it can beexpensive.
(25:41):
So you know, this is why TVseries, this is why radio shows,
this is why productions havebreaks.
It's because, like, you pourresources into them and you need
a break.
So, all right, let's talk aboutEmmanuel Acho, and we're going
to talk about Raven Simone, asshe has told us to call her, who
(26:03):
was once a guest on Quitters.
So, mr Emmanuel Acho, I got topull it up.
Emmanuel Acho, who we havetalked about before on this show
.
Emmanuel Acho says of AngelReese.
Angel Reese, as you guys know,star player for the LSU Tigers,
(26:29):
ncaa champion last year, justdeclared for the WNBA draft,
hails from Baltimore, maryland,my home state, emmanuel Acho,
who we have talked about on thisshow.
So I'm not going to recount whoEmmanuel Acho is, you guys know
who he is.
He says on his show sorry, Ihave to see.
(26:52):
What is this show called?
It's called Speak.
This is so ugly.
Anyway, he says, and I quotethis is a tweet by Mr Emmanuel
Ochoa, and then I'll get intowhat he said on the show.
He says he tweets this this islike a crazy way to start a
tweet.
It says black women havehistorically been the most
(27:14):
marginalized group in America.
Right, pretty normal way tostart a tweet, pretty
straightforward.
The next word is what makesthis such a ridiculous way to
start A sentence, a tweet,anything?
Then he says but and already,before any other words are said
(27:35):
or typed like, you're alreadygoing down the wrong anytime.
You say someone, some party isthe most marginalized group in
some geographical body, and thenyou follow that up with but
you're already going down a badroad.
It says but I'm going to give agender neutral and racially
indifferent take on Angel Reese.
(27:56):
So I'm not even going to get tothe take yet.
I just writing is important,and so I just want to talk about
the phrasing and the framing ofwhat this person has to say.
I'm going to read it one moretime Black women have
historically been the mostmarginalized group in America.
But I'm going to give a genderneutral and racially indifferent
(28:16):
take on Angel Reese.
Um, why?
That's that's my first questionLike why, why do we need a
gender neutral that first?
That also is a ridiculous wayto suppose what it is that he's
(28:37):
about to say.
But why do we need what?
What is racially indifferent?
Even mean no-transcript.
(29:05):
There is no way to be raciallyindifferent when you're talking
about a team that is led by abunch of black women.
Why would you want to?
What is valuable about such athing Like that has no value.
There's, no, there is no suchthing as a racially indifferent
(29:26):
world.
And so what is the value of aracially indifferent take?
There's no such current.
There's no such current statusof such a world, anyway.
And then he has a take.
It's like a minute and a halflong.
I can paraphrase it for y'all,but I'll just pull a quote here,
which is a quote he pulled forhimself.
This man quoted his own take inhis tweet.
(29:46):
He says in sports you can't actlike the big, bad wolf, then
cry like Courage the cowardlydog.
And the way this tweet made itto me was justin sent it to me.
Taylor rooks wrote um man, do Ihate when people do this on
twitter.
Taylor rooks wrote like areally long tweet of response to
(30:08):
it and the whole valueinitially of twitter was that
like this was truncatedmessaging, these were like short
form messages and so I get that.
Like that's where Taylor Rooksis platformed, that's where the
breadth of her following isoutside of TV, so she wants to
get that message across there.
But like it was just long.
But I read it and in so manywords I think she said what I
(30:31):
also feel, which is why youcan't give a racially
indifferent take on somethingthat has such race involvement.
When Angel Reese talks about andcries at the podium, talking
about the vitriol that sheexperiences as a black woman
(30:58):
star basketball player who isherself because I don't even
like when people use the termsunapologetically or like bold or
searing that or hissing is oneof the ones that people use
(31:20):
because, like, if Angel Reesedidn't look how she looked, I
don't think she would be takento be so bold or I don't think
she would be like her mannerismson a basketball court, very
similar to Caitlin Clark'smannerisms on a basketball court
.
Okay, but my point is, when shegets up there and she cries and
she tells us y'all don't knowhow much pain, how much tension,
(31:44):
how much of a burden I havebeen holding up for the last
couple years because of thesuccess that I'm having as a
black woman who's the star of agreat black basketball team.
When she says that, I think myown personal reaction to that
(32:10):
watching her cry, someone who Ithink to be really tough,
someone who I, literally, whilewatching her as someone who
plays basketball, I'm like andlike plays for fun, like so many
people do I'm like, damn, Iwouldn't want to guard that
person.
Like she's big, she's tough,she's really skilled, she plays
(32:31):
hard, she plays physically, likeshe looks like a tough check.
When I think I think of her assomeone who is, as a
definitional trait, I look ather as like she's tough.
She just twisted her ankle andgot right back on the court.
A lot of people aren't builtlike that.
When I see her crying at thepodium, I know that cry is a
little bit about.
Okay, we just lost, and this isme relieving the feelings that
(32:54):
I have been sitting with forhowever long as we have tried to
repeat as champions this year.
But what I also see there islike and what I, I kid you, not
like.
Every time I see the LSU Tigerswomen's basketball team, I think
to myself man, I cannot imaginewhat their mentions look like
(33:15):
on Twitter and I don't want tosee like.
I think we've seen it bubble upall the way to mainstream media
, where, you know, the LosAngeles writer for the LA Times
calls them dirty debutantes Likewe've seen it bubble up into,
like publications.
But I wouldn't even want toknow what kind of mentions both
(33:35):
real human beings and bots aredelivering to Angel Reese on a
daily basis.
And if she is a human, as sheis, she cannot.
She can only try to do her jobevery day without letting those
things affect her.
But of course the critical massof them does, and so I don't
think that in fact, I love anemotional response from an
(33:58):
athlete in at a podium like.
I don't think that has anythingany connection to or any.
I don't think that has anythingto do with how she behaves on a
basketball court.
For example, ron Artest, one ofthe toughest, most feared, most
domineering basketball playersof all time, also known to be
(34:21):
emotional, also known to haveemotional health issues that
he's dealing with, is any lesssort of aligned as a tough guy
(34:42):
or any more inappropriate fortalking shit on a basketball
court or being physical orpushing guys around, because
he's also the guy who will tellyou I was sad, I was scared, I
was broken, and so I don't thinkAngel Reese needs to live up to
those particular standardseither.
But fuck all of that.
Who cares about any of that?
That's semantics.
Here's what's really here.
(35:03):
Um, after george floyd, there'sa window that opened black
voices because companies wereunder pressure, media entities,
studios, networks were underpressure.
(35:24):
Frankly, from each other I meanlike more palatably than from
us to give green lights, givefunding, give budgets, give
space for black people tospecifically to air their
grievances with race and whitepeople, full stop.
(35:47):
I was among many who jumpedinto that void with both feet,
saw the opportunity, didn'texpressed my feelings and took a
career out of it.
Honestly, emmanuel Achosimilarly jumped into that void,
(36:14):
but did so with the strategy asfar as I can tell of and I've
talked about this before, so Iwon't stretch it out I am going
to be the black voice that isgoing to be the most placating
to white people, so that I canhave longevity here.
And it's worked.
Here he is.
(36:34):
Here he is back again doing themanual ocho dance Telling us
you know, black women are themost historically marginalized
group in the country.
But dot, but, dot, dot, dot.
(36:58):
And I think we are now steppinginto a particularly scary and
distorted place as it regardsblack voices that have been able
to hold on to their grip ofopportunity in these last four
years, that have been able tohold on to their grip of
opportunity in these last fouryears, which is that the ones
that have really been able toseize the moment many of them,
not all are the ones that aremost willing to bend now that
(37:20):
the mandate has changed.
The mandate at the beginningwas come in here and talk about
your pain.
The mandate at the beginningwas come in here and talk about
your pain.
Come in here and talk about howfucked up white people are,
come in here and talk about howfucked up America is, how bad
racial standing is in America,etc.
That was the mandate for asecond and for those that jumped
(37:48):
in, the ones who are willing tonow do this like, the mandate
is different now.
The mandate is we don't want tohear about that black shit, no
more.
The mandate is if you want totalk about that kind of shit,
well, we need a new spin on it,because we're all exhausted with
having to hear area grievances.
We're all exhausted having tohear about how sad and how
painful and how miserable theexperience is.
Here Now we want somethingdifferent and people like this
who will twist themselves up toget a click, as he is literally
(38:13):
told us he is willing to dothere's a good possibility that
those might be the ones with thebiggest platforms going forward
, be the ones with the biggestplatforms going forward, and so
I personally am right now.
I just told somebody like this.
Last night I caught up with anold friend.
She was the person whorecruited me to Google when I
was in college.
(38:34):
She is now the vice, I want tosay the vice president of
culture at a big tech company, Iwon't say which.
We caught up last night and Itold her it's so crazy.
I feel so much lighter and somuch more free right now, where
I don't feel compelled to talkand write about race than I did
(38:57):
four years ago, when people werethrowing a gazillion
opportunities at me to doexactly that.
Like in the moment.
Where said differently, becauseI didn't make the point In the
moment where it was like, hey,black people, we're listening to
you.
Now we want to hear what youhave to say.
What I felt was the incredibleburden of having to be a voice
(39:24):
to white people.
And today, now that that ispasse, now that nobody gives a
shit anymore, it's real man, thedoor has been slammed.
We can like continue to floatoff and like, watch people
You're going to watch.
You're going to watch peoplewho think they made a career
being a black voice and nowthat's the thing to continue to
(39:44):
do.
You're gonna watch them try topivot or you're gonna watch them
try to stretch that thing intomore things, and it's just not
like.
It just doesn't have the samelevel of opportunity.
But this guy, he'll do anything.
He'll fucking sell angel resale.
That's crazy.
Okay, let's do one more segmentand then let's get out of here.
(40:06):
Okay, morgan sent me a what dowe call these?
A link?
Morgan sent me a link.
It is a link to Tyler, thecreator on De La Soul's AOI
podcast.
Tyler says I'm always ahead ofeven myself, so the AI will
(40:31):
never catch up to me creatively.
That is a.
There's a couple things in that.
I have bit my tongue, so as notto say this conversation about
artificial intelligence hasreached a pitch where I don't
(40:52):
think there are very manyanymore who are denying the
relevance or even like themagnitude of AI as a wave, of AI
as a wave.
I do think there are some whoare reluctant to participate for
(41:13):
different reasons and I thinkthere are some who are excited
to participate for differentreasons and, honestly, most of
those people are people who, Ithink, do not value creative
human beings or like artaltogether.
If I'm being honest and thenlike in the middle, somewhere
(41:34):
there's a big middle and I'msomewhere further to the right
hand of that or further to thelatter end of that spectrum,
which is like I do care aboutart.
I am a creative person, quiteliterally myself, and I want to
know how to use this stuff.
We've talked about it.
(41:58):
I think all artists have on somelevel I wouldn't even call it a
hubris, because that now is aword that belongs to Amanda
Seals there is a confidence thatborders on arrogance that I
think all working artists whoactually push their creative out
(42:20):
into the world have to have,which is to say and to feel my
particular point of view and myvoice is distinct and it's
unique and it is mine andnothing else.
Nothing else man-made, nothingelse computer generated can
replace what I see and what Ican do, what I see and what I
(42:46):
can do, and I haven't like.
Tyler the creator is the personto say something like this,
because that is like it seemslike who he is and how he
represents himself is.
He is boldly, arrogantlyconfident about what he can do
and he's great.
Tyler's last album Love itStill.
Listen to it.
But I think, even if you don'thave like the braggadocious tone
of Tyler the creator, um, youyou must feel that way about
(43:11):
yourself as an artist to do thejob.
Like I was just thinkingliterally yesterday while
cooking my dinner.
I was thinking I'm gonna tellyou honestly what I was thinking
.
I know how I want to feel.
I know how I want things tofeel when people say you're a
(43:32):
picky eater, you're this like,you're picky about this, you're
picky about that, you're pickyabout this.
And in my head and I don't saythis because, like, I am one
person and they're societal, butit's like in my head my entire
life I have always, my wholelife, always known what kind of
(43:56):
girls I like.
I've always known what kind ofladies I like.
Okay, morgan, it's okay, it'sgoing to be okay.
I promise, don't get nervous Tothe point where my friends know
, they know I have such a strongpoint of view on what people I
(44:17):
think are beautiful that they,even when they don't like look
similar, they can know if we'rein some place.
They're like chad likes that one.
They know that and they'veteased me for it.
(44:37):
Like people have always, likepeople have lots of jokes about
it.
It's whatever, whatever.
It's whatever.
It's whatever.
In my head, though and I don'tsay it out loud, and I'm glad
Tyler is saying some shit likethis, like this but I feel this
way about writing, I feel thisway about music, I feel this way
about food, I feel this wayabout athletes.
Like, in my head, I'm like howcome nobody else but me knows
(45:02):
what beauty looks like?
I think that's what an artistfeels.
How come and I don't meannobody else, but I'm like, how
come all these other peopledon't know what to see Like?
How come they all see thiswrong?
How come I see it like this andthey all see it wrong?
And you can't live your lifelike that, like you have to like
(45:23):
adjust to be like like I'mgoing to be open to other
people's perspectives, I'm goingto whatever, whatever.
But it's why it is so criticalwhen we're doing the job that,
like, all that goes out thewindow when we do the job, all
of it is like all of it has tocome down to like does this feel
right or not?
Does this feel right or not?
And I do agree with Tyler in in.
(45:47):
If this is what he is saying, Iknow he's saying it for himself
, but I think it can apply toother artists.
Like, I don't think a computer,I don't think there is a
generative software that isgoing to be able to know close
enough to how I know what isright and what is wrong.
I must do this because we onlyhave one episode left and I
(46:10):
really must say it Like I knowI'm right about LeBron.
Like, if you see it differentlythan me, you're wrong.
And this is the other thingthat I think is important about
being an artist too, and aboutbeing like someone with a strong
and distinct point of view is,I think people, let's use Tyler
(46:35):
now, not me.
We look to Tyler to tell us whathe sees.
We look to Tyler to be like oh,I see this and he puts it
together and it works and ithits and it resonates, because
he saw something that you didn'tsee and he put it together
there.
I know my friends know I'mright about LeBron.
I know that, like I know,because they look at me and
(46:56):
they're like I know Chad knows alot of stuff about this stuff.
He has a good point of view,his takes often bear out, but
there's a level of denial thatthey just don't want to accept.
Then we talked about thisearlier.
Like they want to avoid thatI'm right about this thing,
because they don't want to seeme be satisfied with how right I
(47:19):
am about this thing.
And I think the same is thecase for, like artists, all the
time, people love to watchcreative people and bold people
and athletes and whoever love tosee them get something wrong,
because it's so weird that theykeep getting the thing like that
the thing keeps working forthem or that it ever works for
them when they try some crazyshit.
So back to Tyler, as it regardsthese robots.
(47:41):
I think that is a healthyperspective to have on the
robots, that they will never beable to be more, I guess,
forward thinking than him.
But the hesitation I have tohis statement is like they're
not trying to be forwardthinking, they're just trying to
know exactly what we want nowand give that to us.
(48:04):
That's what the big companiesdo.
Like Amazon doesn't tell youwhat you're going to want.
Like it tells you what you wanttoday, tells you what you want
to click right this second.
So we see artists fall andfumble all the time because they
try to give people somethingthat they're not ready for and
then, when it's time and whenpeople actually are ready for it
, somebody else seizes thatmoment're not ready for.
And then, when it's time andwhen people actually are ready
for it, somebody else seizesthat moment and they miss it.
(48:26):
So that's the one like sort oftempering I would put on Tyler's
point of view there, but I likethe sentiment.
All right enough, it's been anhour.
We're out of here.
This is nothing but anarchy.
We have one more episode thisseason, episode 100, on Tuesday.
We would love to have you guyshere with us for that episode.
Maybe we'll figure out if we'regoing to do that one live, just
(48:47):
so we can have all of our usualsuspects call in.
I'm at Chad Sand on Instagram.
Go like and subscribe to us onthe YouTubes.
I think that's it.
Well, here's one more thingthat I'll plug.
I just added three more liveone-on-one coaching sessions for
next week Tuesday, thursday,friday.
If you want that, go sign up atthe top link in my bio.
(49:09):
It'll send you to my standstore, that's it.
Okay, this is Nothing butAnarchy.
Goodbye, thank you.
Outro Music.
Welcome to Nothing but Anarchy.
This is episode number 99.
Wow, okay, so we have made italmost to a year.
It's a year on Tuesday, it's ayear today.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
No, it's a year today .
It's a year today, we've madeit to a year of this show.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We have done a year.
On Tuesday, dear, today it's ayear.
Today it's a year.
Today we've made it to a yearof this show, we have done a
year's worth of this show and weare coming up upon episode
number 100, which is on Tuesday.
Um, more on that.
My dog is trying to get in tothe office and it's fine.
I don't know, I don't.
They just it's just fine, itjust is what?
Fine, I don't know, I don't,it's just fine, it just is what
it is.
I don't know how that sounded.
(00:47):
We got some stuff to talk abouttoday.
There's a lot to talk abouttoday.
I am incapable of focusingwhile burying the lead, so I'm
going to start with that.
We are coming up on our 100thepisode of Nothing but Anarchy a
year today to date, as Imentioned, but Anarchy, a year
(01:09):
today to date, as I mentioned.
And what is going to happen onepisode 100 is that is going to
wrap season one of Nothing butAnarchy.
This is the only thing that Iknow of that does 100 episodes
in a season, and there's a fewreasons for that, and so I'm
going to let you guys under thehood on that, because I think
that's what we do on this showand I think it's important to be
(01:31):
forthcoming in that way.
There's probably a hundredreasons for them, but I'll give
you, guys, the big reasons.
Number one is that it takes alot out of you to.
It takes a lot out of us toself-produce a show for a year,
(01:52):
um, including travel,preparation, studio costs,
production costs, content costs,um, like a regular churn of
trying to find things to talkabout, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera.
And we are people and, likelike anything, um, I think it is
(02:13):
worthwhile to take a breath andtake a break so that you can do
your best work when you show upto work and so that you're not
like, I don't know, smoking oncigarette ashes is the way that
I think about it.
Like sometimes where, when Iwatch what people are doing and
saying, and the ones who areless inspiring to me are the
(02:36):
ones who are trying to make itwork, just to make it work so
they can show up and get theircheck, and that doesn't feel
good, and we don't show up andget a check.
So there's that too.
Number two this was aninteresting, so I would
encapsulate that entire one as,like it's just time.
(02:56):
It's time to take a breath andtake a break.
I have a lot of shit going on.
Morgan has a lot of shit goingon.
We both have 50-11 jobs.
Lot of shit going on.
Morgan has a lot of shit goingon.
We both have 50, 11 jobs.
I have a book coming out soonand there's a lot that requires
my focus as I get ready for saidbook to come out.
And so we got to take a breakfor a second.
We got to take a break for Idon't know how long of a second,
(03:17):
but we got to take a break.
Second thing this one is more uh, this one is more uh
entertaining to me.
So me and morgan were planningto have a.
Me and morgan were planning tohave like a catch-up, like a um
sit down, catch-up, meeting.
You know, morgan and I are likealways running, running,
(03:40):
running, texting, calling,seeing each other in the studio.
You, you know, making thingshappen on the fly, like, okay,
we want to try, this thing Gotto execute.
Okay, we want to try to get aninfluencer.
Oh, I just got my coffeepackage, morgan, today, so I can
drink the coffee and thenadvertise it.
We're like trying to make dealshappen.
We're trying to make stuffhappen.
(04:01):
We're doing all the things andwe rarely get a chance to like
sit down and, you know, talkface to face and just take stock
of everything and decide whatdirection we're going to go with
things.
We were supposed to do that, Ithought, wednesday of this week,
and after our Tuesday show,morgan says to me I'm
(04:25):
paraphrasing hey, do you want tohave that catch up call later
today?
And I like to think of myselfas an intuitive person,
especially when it comes topeople who I am close to, and
something made me feel likeMorgan is going to drop some
(04:52):
kind of a bomb on me, or not.
Not a bomb exactly, but there'ssomething Morgan wants to say
that will be said in thisconversation, and this is not
just like a housekeeping catchup.
Morgan, you're playing withyour hair, are you nervous?
No, this is just funny to hearyou To see how I was processing
it.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Can you try holding the mic closer?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
How's that Better?
Yeah, I knew there wassomething that Morgan wanted to
say.
I will give more context tothis.
This is this job, and by thisjob I mean all of this writing,
tv writing, books, makingpodcasts, making things that are
(05:35):
like each one is its own,individual, encapsulated world,
world.
Um, think of these as likelittle spaceships, each one of
them and at different times.
There are different people whocome onto a spaceship, do
maintenance, drive it, give itdirections, you know, clean the
(05:58):
inside of it, design differentparts of it whatever, co-pilot
it, pilot it whatever.
And then people leave andsometimes, like the spaceship
lands, sometimes like it keepsgoing, but with a different crew
, whatever.
As an example, like I was apart of the Rapshit spaceship
for one season of its life andthen the ship, the spaceship,
(06:24):
landed and asked me to pleasekindly step off, and then it
took back into flight as aspaceship with a slightly
different crew, whatever.
So for this particularspaceship, like I think, for its
life to continue like we willprobably need to tinker with the
(06:46):
crew and with the pieces andetc.
Etc.
Etc.
And we gotta take a breath forit.
But anyway, when Morgan told methere was something that she
what Morgan asked me can wecatch up?
I just had this feeling thatwhat would follow would could be
Morgan saying like hey, I needto take a break here, um, with
(07:07):
this.
I also just to tell you guys,like emotionally, um, I am
processing the feeling of,frankly, just like losing people
.
Um, I just did a whole damnproject on losing somebody from
my high school life.
I was recently in arelationship that I am no longer
(07:29):
in.
Somebody just quit on me twoseconds ago on a different
project entirely.
I am coming to grips with thevery cliche adage that, like you
(07:50):
know, people in your life areseasons.
They come into your life, theyleave it, they leave your life,
or sometimes they come in andthey stay for a long time or
forever.
Anyway, all that said, I waslike I went for a walk and I
took Penny and I called a friendof mine who advises me on a lot
that I do.
He's, I would call him like myexecutive coach, basically in,
among other things, and I calledhim literally.
(08:15):
I called him and I was likeMorgan wants to have a
conversation this afternoon.
I think it could be about hereither wanting to step off of
the ship or find another placeto be on the ship.
And what I said to him was likeI'm going to ask Morgan what
she wants, because that's mostimportant, because I feel like
(08:38):
Morgan, as most people are, likethey do, she does her best work
with what is exciting andwhat's inspiring to her.
But then I was like but I alsogot to figure out what I want
and it was opaque to me, it wasunclear to me, what do I want?
So we talked it out, we laidout all the pieces of like what
(08:59):
I have going on right now, havegoing on right now book is
coming out.
I have tv pitches that areconstantly going, you know, into
the conveyor belt to go throughmy agents and go out to the
networks to see if we can getbites.
I now this is like I guess Imean I have an influencer.
(09:23):
Does that make me an influencer, morgan?
Morgan nods her head.
Yes, she nods it, so, so,swiftly and easily.
She nods her head yes, thankyou for our Gen Z representative
to not feel gross about callingme an influencer.
(09:57):
There's, there's.
You know, I'm trying to do morepublic speaking.
I'm trying to like also sort ofmentor and coach other people
into this industry.
I'm making advertisements.
There's a lot.
There's just a lot of shitthat's going on around here and
I want to lay it all out withthis person who I was talking to
, so that I could think tomyself, okay, well, like, unless
Morgan is just saying she'sready to step away altogether,
(10:17):
like maybe there is somethingelse here that Morgan would feel
excited about.
And it took the laying out ofall of that, for what came to
mind to me, like actually towardthe end of the conversation,
was, like you know, what I havebeen doing, the like process of
pitching and writing up pitchesand taking them out and taking
(10:40):
them to my agents.
I've been doing that basicallyalone for like seven or eight
years, taking them to my agents.
I've been doing that basicallyalone for like seven or eight
years, and I don't really lovedoing it alone.
And Morgan, as her stated goal,wants to be a showrunner and
(11:07):
wants to make TV and she hasfantastic design skills and
creative skills and I thinkshe's like a really talented you
know business person.
I guess like she's someone whoknows how to talk to people and
make people feel comfortable,whatever.
Blah, blah, blah.
So call morgan when I get backin the house and I'm like hey,
morgan, um, okay, like know,let's talk about the show, but
first can we talk about justlike everything.
(11:28):
Can we just take a look at thedesign of everything that's here
and what's going on here andthen just like make sure that we
are doing what we want to bedoing and what makes sense here?
And what followed was I have totruncate this because it was
like an hour-long conversationbut I thought we had a very easy
(11:52):
and very like positive, healthy, easy conversation.
That was just like Morgan isgoing to slowly Well, not even
that slowly Morgan is going tothoughtfully step away from this
particular role and basicallylike lead up, you know,
(12:16):
development.
I guess that's what the role is.
I guess that's what the thingis like development and some
other things like Morgan does.
Morgan helps me with a lot.
She partners with me a lot.
Morgan helps me with a lot.
She partners with me a lot.
Morgan also is like a captain.
She's like a team leader typeof person.
She's like a you know she canrally the troops and so she's
going to be doing some otherstuff like that with me.
(12:38):
I am going to be transitioningthis brand probably into
something else.
There's some stuff that I wantto do on Tik TOK to grow my
following there.
There's some other stuff I wantto do on Instagram.
That's going to be like rolloutfor my book, and so I think
we'll probably be transitioningthe brand there and then
eventually, when we have someoneelse to step back into the role
(13:00):
of like really head downproducing this show, um, we will
, will.
We will pick it back up for aseason two, which maybe won't be
100 episodes long, but maybelike 50 or 35 or something like
that.
So, uh, morgan, this is thepart that I wanted to check in
on.
What were your, I would like toknow what was inside your head
(13:23):
leading up to the conversationthat we had yesterday, and what
sort of emotional processinghave you been doing recently in
preparation of that conversation, for that conversation?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
um, I would say I had been like thinking about that
conversation for like months,but I didn't know how to.
I don't know.
I like I was feeling uneasyabout it, um, just because I
didn't know how you were gonnareact, or like more.
(13:57):
So just what would happen, likewith the show, like I didn't.
What I didn't want is for itnot to happen because I wasn't
involved.
That's a shitty feeling.
So I was like thinking aboutthat and then, I don't know,
like a couple of weeks ago, itjust kind of all like aligned.
(14:19):
I feel like in this type of work, where you're constantly saying
yes and no to things, you haveto be pretty aligned within
yourself.
And I stopped being likeanxious about it.
Well, I was anxious abouttalking to you about it.
I really just like wanted toget because, once I knew it felt
like I was keeping somethingfrom you and I was like I just
need to say it um.
(14:40):
But but aside from that, theactual like like saying that I,
you know, wanted to move out ofthis role, um felt a lot.
I felt good about it, like Ifelt very like at peace about it
because it just felt like theright thing um to do and like so
(15:02):
.
So, yeah, I think that that's'slike, but it took me a while to
like marinate on it and kind ofpros and cons it out, um, but
yeah what did you think would bethe worst case scenario for how
the conversation would proceed?
um, I think the worst casescenario I don't even know, I
(15:29):
mean, I guess, like, I guess theworst case scenario for me
would have been you saying likeokay, we're gonna try to like
find somebody and like and stilldo this, and then that taking
forever, and then we neveractually migrating out.
(15:50):
I think that would have beenthe worst case scenario, because
then that would have, like Idon't know, just taken a turn
and then like probably wouldn'thave been good and yeah.
So I think that.
But I don't think I neverimagined you like screaming at
(16:11):
me or being like.
That never crossed my mind.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
But yeah, okay, good, yeah, that was never gonna
happen.
Like I think life is funny inthat.
Well, it's just.
Sometimes I feel like everybodyhas like a sense of we're like
fish, like we're like a schoolof fish, like everyone has an
(16:35):
intuition of where the school isat and where the school is
going and where it's moving.
And sometimes those things getblocked, sometimes that
intuition gets blocked, and itcan be blocked for a lot of
reasons.
It can be blocked because ofdenial you just don't want
something to be so, so yourefuse to see it.
It can be blocked because ofavoidance, where you know it's
(16:58):
so, but you just try to steerthe car in another direction,
even though you're no, you'regoing uphill.
Um fear and I don't know.
Self-consciousness, like, um,insecurity, like whatever.
I think, uh, and then I'm gonnastop talking about this, but I
(17:19):
just I am this person.
If I go to a party, I must callmy friends the next day and be
like, let's talk about the party.
Like I must, if somethinghappens.
I must, the next day, talk tomy friends and say like wasn't
that thing so crazy?
Like did you hear the personsay this?
What do you think about this?
What do you think about thisand on all of this, you know the
(17:40):
people who I admire, like thepeople that I really look up to,
even the people who I don'tthink are good people but who I
look up to from like aprofessional sense, like I'm not
even going to say their names,because some of them I just
don't want to promote what theydo, because some of them I just
don't want to promote what theydo.
But what I like about them is,as people put it, like they play
(18:01):
the long-term game with theirpeople, like you play the
long-term game with your people,you play the long-term game
with your projects.
I am starting to feel less andless of, I would say.
Up until literally now, I feltsuch an intense urgency to get
(18:22):
everything done and geteverything out at one time, and
now that I'm old, now that I'veturned 36, I'm like, well,
anything I didn't get donealready I'm not getting done by
the time I turned 35.
So now maybe I can take abreath and like, look at the
long term vision here.
And I don't know.
I just think there's way morecool shit that we have to do.
(18:42):
And for those who love this showand this is really the
important part here, not me andMorgan's feelings.
The important part here is,like, in a short amount of time
you know a year sounds like along time, but it's really a
short amount of time in thelifespan of media we have
amassed, like we have broughttogether a community of people
(19:06):
who really have shown up forthis show, who really listen to
this show.
Some people listen to this showmultiple times when it comes
out.
There are people who downloadthis show every single time it
comes out, who listen to itimmediately, who give us their
(19:26):
weekend hours, who give us hourswith their family, who listen
to it with their partner.
Like that is that is what Ilove about this job.
That is what I want to spend mylife doing is bringing together
communities like this to havereal conversation and also to
like just have a good time witheach other.
Like we like get a break fromthe like the seriousness of
(19:49):
everything you know and the the,the proposed urgency of
everything, and I mean I don'tlike just to shout out a few
like TJ and Ashil came to NewYork to be in the studio with us
when we were, like, really justbeginning.
Obviously, josh has been herefor every step of the way.
My sister, shannon, has beenboth a guest on the show and
(20:13):
also probably our most avidlistener, listening to every
single episode of this thing.
Um justin lovett, uh and leonlistened to, as far as I know,
pretty much every single episodeof this thing.
My god brother, jonathan cooper, has been has been a big
supporter of the show.
Charday, who came in, who wasin studio with us and who also
listens to the show regularly.
(20:33):
Um brian shields, who was aguest on the show for like the
first 30 episodes.
He was like a caller foreverything.
Um melissa ingram, whoobviously like brought us into
um, what was that shit called?
You know?
Who brought us into amp andquincy, who listens to the show
(20:54):
and also who connected me tomelissa to help us get this
thing going and on the rails.
Luigi, who has been cutting allthe content and like really
helping us have an aesthetic onour digital presence.
Charlotte, who's been in, who Iwas gonna say, david Atkinson is
like David Atkinson who's allwho always shows up and who
(21:16):
showed up for us at the liveshow.
All 50 people who bought all 50tickets for the live show,
including my parents, umshanklin hall, which gave us a
venue for the live show.
Uh, fucking tia, who dj'd forboth the launch party and the
live show.
Everybody that showed up forthe launch party, jeff Lee, jeff
(21:36):
Lee, who I've known almost myentire life, who I went to
church with, high school, withCub Scouts, all that basketball
teams, and these are just thepeople I know.
I guess I also want to say youknow, we see the numbers.
There's obviously people outthere who oh damn, we're
forgetting someone else KendraYesra yes, definitely kendra,
(21:57):
who showed up for us.
Jasmine ellis cooper, whoshowed up, who started off as a
fan of the show, came to thelaunch party, then came on, then
came as a guest, then we wentto our fucking baby shower.
Um, but no, I'm forgetting umhillary hillary as well, who
used to be at every amp show.
He was a caller all the time.
I mean literally, like, as I'msaying it out loud, I'm
(22:19):
recognizing these are likethey're.
This show has touched thousandsof people, um, I would say even
at a high touch way, like atleast a hundred people have been
around it, like callers show up, people who shut up for live
shows, people, people who camein studio, thank you.
Like this has been, I would saythis show has shown me and
(22:46):
proven to me I always hoped thatI would be able to build
something that was meaningfuland that touched people and that
actually had legs, like thatactually could grow without a
(23:06):
studio, an agent, an executive,a financier, like something that
was truly ours and that trulynobody else could tell us what
it needed to be or how it neededto be.
And we have now built thefoundation of that here with the
show over the course of 100episodes.
(23:27):
And so, last thing I want to saythis just became a speech.
It's what a weird episode um is.
Just thank you to all of y'allwho have shown up over and over
and over and over and over againfor the show, because you guys
have given me the thing that ismost valuable to all of us as
creatives, which is confidencethat, like we oh wow, we can do
(23:49):
this.
So now Tuesday will be episode100.
No idea what we're going totalk about on Tuesday.
Then we will close the book onseason one and we will be back
to you with season two somepoint in the near to mid future.
I mean, I'm thinking I'llprobably want to relaunch around
(24:09):
the time that my book comes out, which is in February, and
start the conversation aroundwhat's in that book, because I
think it's going to be veryspicy and I think it's going to
have some interestingconversations.
The book, by the way, is calledhow to Sell Out, and we can go
to break for a quick second andthen come back and we're going
to talk about something that'shappening Someone who I think is
(24:35):
an interesting character studyfor the concept of how to sell
out.
So thanks y'all, love y'all.
We'll be back in two seconds.
I don't know why I'm saying thatthere's no one here live.
This is a podcast recording,but keep it in because it's
funny.
All y'all you guys know whereto find me.
I'm at Chad Sand on Instagram.
We're going to be reaching outto you guys with a couple other
(24:57):
things via email.
We're not going anywhere, butjust because we're not going to
talk to you guys every Tuesdayand Thursday, as we have for the
last year, for a few months orhowever long, I just want to say
thank you.
So thank you.
Now we're going to go away Notreally, but we're going to talk
about Emmanuel Acho in a second,because that's the point of the
show.
(25:17):
So I was living my life.
You know what?
I forgot to add one other thing, which is it doesn't have to be
this way.
So I don't want to bediscouraging to anybody who
wants to do this job, but thisis a very quick backtrack.
It's expensive, it can beexpensive.
(25:41):
So you know, this is why TVseries, this is why radio shows,
this is why productions havebreaks.
It's because, like, you pourresources into them and you need
a break.
So, all right, let's talk aboutEmmanuel Acho, and we're going
to talk about Raven Simone, asshe has told us to call her, who
(26:03):
was once a guest on Quitters.
So, mr Emmanuel Acho, I got topull it up.
Emmanuel Acho, who we havetalked about before on this show
.
Emmanuel Acho says of AngelReese.
Angel Reese, as you guys know,star player for the LSU Tigers,
(26:29):
ncaa champion last year, justdeclared for the WNBA draft,
hails from Baltimore, maryland,my home state, emmanuel Acho,
who we have talked about on thisshow.
So I'm not going to recount whoEmmanuel Acho is, you guys know
who he is.
He says on his show sorry, Ihave to see.
(26:52):
What is this show called?
It's called Speak.
This is so ugly.
Anyway, he says, and I quotethis is a tweet by Mr Emmanuel
Ochoa, and then I'll get intowhat he said on the show.
He says he tweets this this islike a crazy way to start a
tweet.
It says black women havehistorically been the most
(27:14):
marginalized group in America.
Right, pretty normal way tostart a tweet, pretty
straightforward.
The next word is what makesthis such a ridiculous way to
start A sentence, a tweet,anything?
Then he says but and already,before any other words are said
(27:35):
or typed like, you're alreadygoing down the wrong anytime.
You say someone, some party isthe most marginalized group in
some geographical body, and thenyou follow that up with but
you're already going down a badroad.
It says but I'm going to give agender neutral and racially
indifferent take on Angel Reese.
(27:56):
So I'm not even going to get tothe take yet.
I just writing is important,and so I just want to talk about
the phrasing and the framing ofwhat this person has to say.
I'm going to read it one moretime Black women have
historically been the mostmarginalized group in America.
But I'm going to give a genderneutral and racially indifferent
(28:16):
take on Angel Reese.
Um, why?
That's that's my first questionLike why, why do we need a
gender neutral that first?
That also is a ridiculous wayto suppose what it is that he's
(28:37):
about to say.
But why do we need what?
What is racially indifferent?
Even mean no-transcript.
(29:05):
There is no way to be raciallyindifferent when you're talking
about a team that is led by abunch of black women.
Why would you want to?
What is valuable about such athing Like that has no value.
There's, no, there is no suchthing as a racially indifferent
(29:26):
world.
And so what is the value of aracially indifferent take?
There's no such current.
There's no such current statusof such a world, anyway.
And then he has a take.
It's like a minute and a halflong.
I can paraphrase it for y'all,but I'll just pull a quote here,
which is a quote he pulled forhimself.
This man quoted his own take inhis tweet.
(29:46):
He says in sports you can't actlike the big, bad wolf, then
cry like Courage the cowardlydog.
And the way this tweet made itto me was justin sent it to me.
Taylor rooks wrote um man, do Ihate when people do this on
twitter.
Taylor rooks wrote like areally long tweet of response to
(30:08):
it and the whole valueinitially of twitter was that
like this was truncatedmessaging, these were like short
form messages and so I get that.
Like that's where Taylor Rooksis platformed, that's where the
breadth of her following isoutside of TV, so she wants to
get that message across there.
But like it was just long.
But I read it and in so manywords I think she said what I
(30:31):
also feel, which is why youcan't give a racially
indifferent take on somethingthat has such race involvement.
When Angel Reese talks about andcries at the podium, talking
about the vitriol that sheexperiences as a black woman
(30:58):
star basketball player who isherself because I don't even
like when people use the termsunapologetically or like bold or
searing that or hissing is oneof the ones that people use
(31:20):
because, like, if Angel Reesedidn't look how she looked, I
don't think she would be takento be so bold or I don't think
she would be like her mannerismson a basketball court, very
similar to Caitlin Clark'smannerisms on a basketball court
.
Okay, but my point is, when shegets up there and she cries and
she tells us y'all don't knowhow much pain, how much tension,
(31:44):
how much of a burden I havebeen holding up for the last
couple years because of thesuccess that I'm having as a
black woman who's the star of agreat black basketball team.
When she says that, I think myown personal reaction to that
(32:10):
watching her cry, someone who Ithink to be really tough,
someone who I, literally, whilewatching her as someone who
plays basketball, I'm like andlike plays for fun, like so many
people do I'm like, damn, Iwouldn't want to guard that
person.
Like she's big, she's tough,she's really skilled, she plays
(32:31):
hard, she plays physically, likeshe looks like a tough check.
When I think I think of her assomeone who is, as a
definitional trait, I look ather as like she's tough.
She just twisted her ankle andgot right back on the court.
A lot of people aren't builtlike that.
When I see her crying at thepodium, I know that cry is a
little bit about.
Okay, we just lost, and this isme relieving the feelings that
(32:54):
I have been sitting with forhowever long as we have tried to
repeat as champions this year.
But what I also see there islike and what I, I kid you, not
like.
Every time I see the LSU Tigerswomen's basketball team, I think
to myself man, I cannot imaginewhat their mentions look like
(33:15):
on Twitter and I don't want tosee like.
I think we've seen it bubble upall the way to mainstream media
, where, you know, the LosAngeles writer for the LA Times
calls them dirty debutantes Likewe've seen it bubble up into,
like publications.
But I wouldn't even want toknow what kind of mentions both
(33:35):
real human beings and bots aredelivering to Angel Reese on a
daily basis.
And if she is a human, as sheis, she cannot.
She can only try to do her jobevery day without letting those
things affect her.
But of course the critical massof them does, and so I don't
think that in fact, I love anemotional response from an
(33:58):
athlete in at a podium like.
I don't think that has anythingany connection to or any.
I don't think that has anythingto do with how she behaves on a
basketball court.
For example, ron Artest, one ofthe toughest, most feared, most
domineering basketball playersof all time, also known to be
(34:21):
emotional, also known to haveemotional health issues that
he's dealing with, is any lesssort of aligned as a tough guy
(34:42):
or any more inappropriate fortalking shit on a basketball
court or being physical orpushing guys around, because
he's also the guy who will tellyou I was sad, I was scared, I
was broken, and so I don't thinkAngel Reese needs to live up to
those particular standardseither.
But fuck all of that.
Who cares about any of that?
That's semantics.
Here's what's really here.
(35:03):
Um, after george floyd, there'sa window that opened black
voices because companies wereunder pressure, media entities,
studios, networks were underpressure.
(35:24):
Frankly, from each other I meanlike more palatably than from
us to give green lights, givefunding, give budgets, give
space for black people tospecifically to air their
grievances with race and whitepeople, full stop.
(35:47):
I was among many who jumpedinto that void with both feet,
saw the opportunity, didn'texpressed my feelings and took a
career out of it.
Honestly, emmanuel Achosimilarly jumped into that void,
(36:14):
but did so with the strategy asfar as I can tell of and I've
talked about this before, so Iwon't stretch it out I am going
to be the black voice that isgoing to be the most placating
to white people, so that I canhave longevity here.
And it's worked.
Here he is.
(36:34):
Here he is back again doing themanual ocho dance Telling us
you know, black women are themost historically marginalized
group in the country.
But dot, but, dot, dot, dot.
(36:58):
And I think we are now steppinginto a particularly scary and
distorted place as it regardsblack voices that have been able
to hold on to their grip ofopportunity in these last four
years, that have been able tohold on to their grip of
opportunity in these last fouryears, which is that the ones
that have really been able toseize the moment many of them,
not all are the ones that aremost willing to bend now that
(37:20):
the mandate has changed.
The mandate at the beginningwas come in here and talk about
your pain.
The mandate at the beginningwas come in here and talk about
your pain.
Come in here and talk about howfucked up white people are,
come in here and talk about howfucked up America is, how bad
racial standing is in America,etc.
That was the mandate for asecond and for those that jumped
(37:48):
in, the ones who are willing tonow do this like, the mandate
is different now.
The mandate is we don't want tohear about that black shit, no
more.
The mandate is if you want totalk about that kind of shit,
well, we need a new spin on it,because we're all exhausted with
having to hear area grievances.
We're all exhausted having tohear about how sad and how
painful and how miserable theexperience is.
Here Now we want somethingdifferent and people like this
who will twist themselves up toget a click, as he is literally
(38:13):
told us he is willing to dothere's a good possibility that
those might be the ones with thebiggest platforms going forward
, be the ones with the biggestplatforms going forward, and so
I personally am right now.
I just told somebody like this.
Last night I caught up with anold friend.
She was the person whorecruited me to Google when I
was in college.
(38:34):
She is now the vice, I want tosay the vice president of
culture at a big tech company, Iwon't say which.
We caught up last night and Itold her it's so crazy.
I feel so much lighter and somuch more free right now, where
I don't feel compelled to talkand write about race than I did
(38:57):
four years ago, when people werethrowing a gazillion
opportunities at me to doexactly that.
Like in the moment.
Where said differently, becauseI didn't make the point In the
moment where it was like, hey,black people, we're listening to
you.
Now we want to hear what youhave to say.
What I felt was the incredibleburden of having to be a voice
(39:24):
to white people.
And today, now that that ispasse, now that nobody gives a
shit anymore, it's real man, thedoor has been slammed.
We can like continue to floatoff and like, watch people
You're going to watch.
You're going to watch peoplewho think they made a career
being a black voice and nowthat's the thing to continue to
(39:44):
do.
You're gonna watch them try topivot or you're gonna watch them
try to stretch that thing intomore things, and it's just not
like.
It just doesn't have the samelevel of opportunity.
But this guy, he'll do anything.
He'll fucking sell angel resale.
That's crazy.
Okay, let's do one more segmentand then let's get out of here.
(40:06):
Okay, morgan sent me a what dowe call these?
A link?
Morgan sent me a link.
It is a link to Tyler, thecreator on De La Soul's AOI
podcast.
Tyler says I'm always ahead ofeven myself, so the AI will
(40:31):
never catch up to me creatively.
That is a.
There's a couple things in that.
I have bit my tongue, so as notto say this conversation about
artificial intelligence hasreached a pitch where I don't
(40:52):
think there are very manyanymore who are denying the
relevance or even like themagnitude of AI as a wave, of AI
as a wave.
I do think there are some whoare reluctant to participate for
(41:13):
different reasons and I thinkthere are some who are excited
to participate for differentreasons and, honestly, most of
those people are people who, Ithink, do not value creative
human beings or like artaltogether.
If I'm being honest and thenlike in the middle, somewhere
(41:34):
there's a big middle and I'msomewhere further to the right
hand of that or further to thelatter end of that spectrum,
which is like I do care aboutart.
I am a creative person, quiteliterally myself, and I want to
know how to use this stuff.
We've talked about it.
(41:58):
I think all artists have on somelevel I wouldn't even call it a
hubris, because that now is aword that belongs to Amanda
Seals there is a confidence thatborders on arrogance that I
think all working artists whoactually push their creative out
(42:20):
into the world have to have,which is to say and to feel my
particular point of view and myvoice is distinct and it's
unique and it is mine andnothing else.
Nothing else man-made, nothingelse computer generated can
replace what I see and what Ican do, what I see and what I
(42:46):
can do, and I haven't like.
Tyler the creator is the personto say something like this,
because that is like it seemslike who he is and how he
represents himself is.
He is boldly, arrogantlyconfident about what he can do
and he's great.
Tyler's last album Love itStill.
Listen to it.
But I think, even if you don'thave like the braggadocious tone
of Tyler the creator, um, youyou must feel that way about
(43:11):
yourself as an artist to do thejob.
Like I was just thinkingliterally yesterday while
cooking my dinner.
I was thinking I'm gonna tellyou honestly what I was thinking
.
I know how I want to feel.
I know how I want things tofeel when people say you're a
(43:32):
picky eater, you're this like,you're picky about this, you're
picky about that, you're pickyabout this.
And in my head and I don't saythis because, like, I am one
person and they're societal, butit's like in my head my entire
life I have always, my wholelife, always known what kind of
(43:56):
girls I like.
I've always known what kind ofladies I like.
Okay, morgan, it's okay, it'sgoing to be okay.
I promise, don't get nervous Tothe point where my friends know
, they know I have such a strongpoint of view on what people I
(44:17):
think are beautiful that they,even when they don't like look
similar, they can know if we'rein some place.
They're like chad likes that one.
They know that and they'veteased me for it.
(44:37):
Like people have always, likepeople have lots of jokes about
it.
It's whatever, whatever.
It's whatever.
It's whatever.
In my head, though and I don'tsay it out loud, and I'm glad
Tyler is saying some shit likethis, like this but I feel this
way about writing, I feel thisway about music, I feel this way
about food, I feel this wayabout athletes.
Like, in my head, I'm like howcome nobody else but me knows
(45:02):
what beauty looks like?
I think that's what an artistfeels.
How come and I don't meannobody else, but I'm like, how
come all these other peopledon't know what to see Like?
How come they all see thiswrong?
How come I see it like this andthey all see it wrong?
And you can't live your lifelike that, like you have to like
(45:23):
adjust to be like like I'mgoing to be open to other
people's perspectives, I'm goingto whatever, whatever.
But it's why it is so criticalwhen we're doing the job that,
like, all that goes out thewindow when we do the job, all
of it is like all of it has tocome down to like does this feel
right or not?
Does this feel right or not?
And I do agree with Tyler in in.
(45:47):
If this is what he is saying, Iknow he's saying it for himself
, but I think it can apply toother artists.
Like, I don't think a computer,I don't think there is a
generative software that isgoing to be able to know close
enough to how I know what isright and what is wrong.
I must do this because we onlyhave one episode left and I
(46:10):
really must say it Like I knowI'm right about LeBron.
Like, if you see it differentlythan me, you're wrong.
And this is the other thingthat I think is important about
being an artist too, and aboutbeing like someone with a strong
and distinct point of view is,I think people, let's use Tyler
(46:35):
now, not me.
We look to Tyler to tell us whathe sees.
We look to Tyler to be like oh,I see this and he puts it
together and it works and ithits and it resonates, because
he saw something that you didn'tsee and he put it together
there.
I know my friends know I'mright about LeBron.
I know that, like I know,because they look at me and
(46:56):
they're like I know Chad knows alot of stuff about this stuff.
He has a good point of view,his takes often bear out, but
there's a level of denial thatthey just don't want to accept.
Then we talked about thisearlier.
Like they want to avoid thatI'm right about this thing,
because they don't want to seeme be satisfied with how right I
(47:19):
am about this thing.
And I think the same is thecase for, like artists, all the
time, people love to watchcreative people and bold people
and athletes and whoever love tosee them get something wrong,
because it's so weird that theykeep getting the thing like that
the thing keeps working forthem or that it ever works for
them when they try some crazyshit.
So back to Tyler, as it regardsthese robots.
(47:41):
I think that is a healthyperspective to have on the
robots, that they will never beable to be more, I guess,
forward thinking than him.
But the hesitation I have tohis statement is like they're
not trying to be forwardthinking, they're just trying to
know exactly what we want nowand give that to us.
(48:04):
That's what the big companiesdo.
Like Amazon doesn't tell youwhat you're going to want.
Like it tells you what you wanttoday, tells you what you want
to click right this second.
So we see artists fall andfumble all the time because they
try to give people somethingthat they're not ready for and
then, when it's time and whenpeople actually are ready for it
, somebody else seizes thatmoment're not ready for.
And then, when it's time andwhen people actually are ready
for it, somebody else seizesthat moment and they miss it.
(48:26):
So that's the one like sort oftempering I would put on Tyler's
point of view there, but I likethe sentiment.
All right enough, it's been anhour.
We're out of here.
This is nothing but anarchy.
We have one more episode thisseason, episode 100, on Tuesday.
We would love to have you guyshere with us for that episode.
Maybe we'll figure out if we'regoing to do that one live, just
(48:47):
so we can have all of our usualsuspects call in.
I'm at Chad Sand on Instagram.
Go like and subscribe to us onthe YouTubes.
I think that's it.
Well, here's one more thingthat I'll plug.
I just added three more liveone-on-one coaching sessions for
next week Tuesday, thursday,friday.
If you want that, go sign up atthe top link in my bio.
(49:09):
It'll send you to my standstore, that's it.
Okay, this is Nothing butAnarchy.
Goodbye, thank you.
Outro Music.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!