Building the Soil: Transformative Justice Pedagogy with Mia Mingus

What does transformative justice look like in practice? What does it mean to teach transformative justice, so that we destroy the cops in our heads and hearts, and begin to build something new?

In this episode, Mia Mingus -- visionary movement builder, transformative justice organizer, and human rights + disability justice educator -- dives into these questions and more. We discuss the educational experiences that inspired Mia to her current work, Transformative Justice (TJ) frameworks for community accountability and creative intervention, pedagogies of workshopping, and Pod Mapping as a tool for organizing and movement building.

More about our guest:

Mia Mingus is a co-founder of the Bay Area Transformative Justice Collective: Building Transformative Justice Responses to Child Sexual Abuse (BATJC) and the founder and leader of SOIL: A Transformative Justice Project.

Mia inspires us to consider words like dignity, love, compassion, care, and justice in ways that address harm and violence and also bring concrete repair and change. For Mia, the opening question of transformative justice is: “What are the conditions that allowed for that violence or that harm to be able to take place in the first place?” The focus is on dismantling oppressive systems and building new, liberatory structures. This justice work is done in intersectional and interdependent community. 

“Magnificence comes out of our struggle,” she writes. We think that Mia and the worlds she is building are magnificent, and we encourage you to check out her many published writings, many of which are collected on her blog Leaving Evidence.

Credits:

Co-hosted and co-produced by Tina Pippin and Lucia Hulsether

Audio editor: Aliyah Harris

Intro music by Lance Hogan, performed by Aviva and the Flying Penguins

Outro music by Akrasis

Episode Transcript

Tina Pippin (00:11):
Welcome to Nothing Never Happens, the Radical Pedagogy Podcast.
Our podcast guest today is ascholar, writer, blogger, activist,
movement builder, workshop leader,transformative justice and human
rights and disability justice educator.
Mia Inguez is a co-founder of theBay Area transformative justice,

(00:33):
collective building, transformativejustice, responses to child sexual
abuse, and the founder and leader ofSoil, a transformative justice project.
Mia is the recipient of numerous awards,including the Creating Change Award from
the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force,a 40 under 40 award from the advocate.

(00:56):
An A P i, women's Champion of Change,a Ford Foundation Disability Futures
Fellow, and a Robert Cole's Call ofService Award from Harvard University.
Mia is about dreaming accountabilityas a title of one of her
leaving Evidence blogs relates.
The beginning question of transformativejustice is what are the conditions that

(01:21):
allowed for that violence or that harm tobe able to take place in the first place?
The focus is on oppressive systems andbuilding new liberatory structures.
This justice work is donein intersectional and
interdependent community.
In Mia's words, magnificencecomes out of struggle.

(01:43):
We talk with Mia about many aspectsof social justice education, including
the educational experiences thatinspired her to do justice work.
Her use of a transformative justiceframework for community accountability
and creative intervention, her pedagogy ofwork shopping, and her use of pod mapping

(02:06):
for organizing and movement building.
MIA inspires us to consider wordslike dignity, love, compassion,
care, and justice, and ways thataddress harm and violence, and also
bring concrete repair and change.
We are thrilled to haveMia Mingus on our podcast.

(02:28):
Welcome to Nothing never Happens.

Lucia Hulsether (02:32):
Mia, thank you so much for being here.
We're just gonna dive right in.
And we would love to hear from you and Iknow our listeners would too, about how
you got into the work that you do and someof the influences that have shaped your
approach to pedagogy and to justice work.

Mia Mingus (02:54):
Hi.
Thanks for having me.
This is so wonderful to be here.
And, as an Agnes Scott alum, it's justreally great, especially the way that I
got into doing this work it's so funny.
Like I, so I was born in Korea.
I was adopted to St.
Croix in the US Virgin Islandswhen I was six months old.

(03:16):
And the family that I was adopted in.
So I was adopted into a whitefamily living on the island of St.
Croix which at that time andstill is predominantly a black
Caribbean island in particular.
And occupied and colonized by theUnited States who are a territory.
So we, which just means we don'thave as many rights as Puerto Rico,

(03:39):
which means we have zero rights.
Like we don't even get to votein the presidential elections.
But.
The family that I was adopted into,my mother was part of founding
the Women's Coalition of St.
Croix along with 10, nineother women, excuse me.
So 10 total.

(04:00):
And so I was raised in this veryactivist environment and I was
raised around the women's coalitiongrowing and it's still kicking and
it's like now a huge organization.
And I was raised in that,those like early days.

(04:21):
And so I.
I really got to see women organizingfor themselves when no one else would.
And it was a multiracialgroup of women as well.
And so I feel really lucky that Igot to be raised around, especially,
powerful women across the board,but then also especially a lot
of powerful women of color.

(04:41):
And a very early influence.
Obviously all of the, the tight-knitfeminist community that I was
brought up in many of those folks.
But also, like Audrey Lorde wasone of the founding members of the
Women's Coalition and her partnerGloria Joseph, who just passed

(05:04):
passed away just a couple years back.
And she, Audrey was a huge influence tome, and I was lucky enough to get to meet
her and Gloria, since au Audrey's passing,before then as well, but would come to
our house and spend holidays with us.

(05:25):
And I feel like that kind of r veryrural atmosphere and though all of
those pieces were part of my earlyinfluence and I think also being from
a, and being raised in a very ruralplace, like there's influences of

(05:46):
people, but then also I think justthe natural world because you're just
part of and connected to and in thenatural world in ways that in cities
you just are not, and so trees and thehills and the ocean and the rainforest.

(06:06):
And so I feel like a lot of that wasde were definitely influences, but
I think especially this feeling ofwe can just create what we need with
what we have and we can just do it.
And the early days of the coalitionI remember were, they were very
shoestring, just patching the $2you had and stretching them as far

(06:32):
as they would, making somethingoutta nothing kind of days and like
getting to witness the growth of it.
Just, I don't know, spoke to me in thisway of just We can create anything.
And it just it's just a matterof like commitment, time, effort.
Like we can do it.

(06:53):
And I spent my childhood goingto take back the night marches
and making purple ribbons fordomestic violence awareness month.
And I would say that was a huge piece.
And then I, so it'd set me on a trajectoryto do social justice work, but then

(07:15):
there were many things along the way,obviously that got me into this specific
kinds of social justice work I do.

Tina Pippin (07:23):
Yeah.
You've had a lot of experiencewith different groups.
With Kara's books and more, shout outto our feminist bookstore that's now
across the street from Agna Scott andspark Reproductive Justice Now and
the national human rights education.

(07:43):
Group that sadly is no more.
But, so out of all that, you had alot of experience with just so many
systemic issues as well as, specificwomen's lives being affected by this.
And you were out doing trainingsand workshops using that

(08:05):
human rights framework and oneeventually transformative justice.
So I'm cramming everything in here atonce, but I attended a workshop of yours
that you did at Agnes Scott many yearsago on reproductive justice, and I was
cleaning out some notes the other day,and I found the notes from that workshop.

(08:26):
It was such a good workshop.
And that prompts me to ask thequestion with these frameworks
that you have and these, this,multi issues of commitment, how.
What's your pedagogy of workshopping?
How do you enter into, getting a groupof strangers usually that you don't

(08:52):
know their needs and wants, but toget them on, to begin to listen and do
some deep listening on these issues.

Mia Mingus (09:02):
That's a really huge question.
But I appreciate it.
It's so interesting.
I, so one, I think just being somebodywho is from multiple oppressed identities
and having to live that every day,like having to engage with people who

(09:23):
maybe I share zero identities with,or maybe just one, or maybe just two,
and engaging with them in a way that.
That they're either open to hearingabout the other pieces or in a
way where their guard drops andthey're not as threatened by it.
I feel like has prepared me a lot tobe able to do teaching in that way.

(09:50):
And I feel really lucky that I get toteach, by the way, like it's hard work,
but it's also really just Yeah, very,it feels very like, nourishing to me.
I think a lot of it is just instinctualthings that I don't even, that almost feel
like air I don't even realize necessarily.

(10:13):
So I think a lot of it is like thetenor and tone that the facilitator or
the educator brings to the class or thetraining or the workshop or what have you.
And you set help to set the tone becauseso I definitely I'm silly or I joke around

(10:36):
as a way to just get people to cut, toloosen their shoulders up, so to speak.
Metaphor and literally and metaphorically.
But also, all of thethings that I teach about.
So I'm thinking about transformativejustice in particular but also disability
justice, reproductive justice, whenhe used to do a lot of RJ work.

(10:59):
All of them are frameworks that everybodycan re, in my mind, at least everybody
can and should be able to relate tobecause everybody is connected to.
Even if you're not disabled, forexample, you still interact with ableism.
And whether you, whether that meansyou benefit off of it, whether you

(11:20):
leverage it for your benefit orother people's benefit --every single
person, whether they're disabled ornot, knows somebody who's disabled.
I think I always enter in throughthat door of just there's already
a connection here and how do wehelp, how do I help to unearth that?

(11:44):
But also I feel like a huge part ofthe way that I think about teaching
is that oftentimes we alreadyhave these things inside of us.
It's just more about giving permissionto people to, to try new things or to
experiment, for example, or tap intotheir creativity to, especially with

(12:05):
transformative justice, for example,where an abolition work where it's
like the notion of, for example, likesafety or accountability or healing.
These are universal conceptsthat everybody has had some type
of interaction with and existsin some ways in people's lives.

(12:26):
Whether that's, the lack ofaccountability, or watch witnessing
accountability that's not, that's actuallymore about punishment, not necessarily
about being generative and proactive.
So I also feel like there's a sense of.
In my mind, teaching, a lot of theteaching I do is really just about

(12:49):
welcoming people into this and invitingthem to join these conversations
and to join this work and lettingthem know that there is a space,
there's space for everybody here, andobviously, you have to be respectful.
You need to there, there'sconditions around that in terms of

(13:12):
like how you are part of the work.
And that is different in termsof different people's location
and different people's identitiesand experiences, for example.
And both.
And I really truly believe that if we'regonna get to a, the world that we all
long for and want, it's gonna take.

(13:33):
All of us, it's gonna take all of us.
And it's not just gonna be the cool kids.
It's not just gonna be your friends.
It's not just gonna bethe people that you like.
It's gonna have to includeas many people as we can.
And so I really believe in like reachingoutside of the kind of like social
justice bubble and reaching into likeour families, our intimate networks.

(13:57):
Like a lot of us, for example, whoare social, who are activists or
who are engaged in social justicework in whatever way that looks.
A lot of us don't necessarily havethose same kind of conversations with
like our parents or our neighborsor, and so I think that is where

(14:18):
a lot of the work needs to happen.
And I, so I'm always like in that mindset.
I don't know if thatanswers your question.
I hope it does.

Lucia Hulsether (14:26):
That's really thoughtful, and makes me wanna follow
up to ask if you have concrete examplesfor how you work through particular
issues or particular group dynamics.
I'll tell you one that and that I amparticularly cognizant of in my own
organizing and teaching practicesright now is about the ways that

(14:55):
systemic oppression and hierarchies andinterpersonal violence can reproduce
its itself within collectives and groupsthat are fighting to dismantle those
same systems outside of themselves.
Miram Kaba and her writing sometimestalks about this as, the systems it

(15:18):
exist inside of us and outside of us.
And when our organizers who areworking towards abolition being
cops to one another when are peoplemaking each other disposable while
working to stop harm in other ways?
One thing that I observe within myselfwithin collaborators and students and
teaching contexts is how the profoundvulnerabilities of living in a world

(15:43):
that is structured in so many kinds ofviolence spill over into places that
are trying to be about transformation.
As a mode of self-defense and protectionand putting up guardrails that keep
folks from entering into relationshipsthat can produce transformation.

(16:03):
And so that's a rambly way of introducingthe question, but I'm curious to hear you
reflect on that, and especially if youhave some concrete examples of how you've
worked through that, whether in your ownlife or with groups you've been in process
with that many of our listeners couldalso learn from and think with you about.

Mia Mingus (16:23):
Yeah, no, thank you.
That's that particular phenomenonor dynamic happens all the time
and I think, in some ways it's yes,it is a dynamic and a phenomenon.
In other ways though, it's just what itmeans to be human in this inhumane world.
Like of course, the conditions thatwe're operating in are going to arise

(16:48):
and come up inside of our work, inside ofour relationships, inside of ourselves,
because, We, I say this all the time, oursocial justice movements and ourselves
as well, we don't exist in a vacuum.
Our work doesn't exist in a vacuum.
It exists in the same conditionsthat have shaped this very

(17:10):
violent and oppressive world.
So I think on the one hand,for us to naively act as if
that would not, we wouldn't beaffected by those things, right?
Because here's the thing.
Oftentimes when something happens, so onthe one hand many people in social justice

(17:34):
communities, we can dissect everythingdown to like oblivion and analyze it.
And we know we're like,these are the problems.
This is what's wrong.
This is terrible.
This is what privilege is, this kindof oppression is happening, whatever.
And then on the other hand, we expectpeople to act as if that is not the

(17:56):
world that they were shaped and moldedin and that they were born into.
And we, and then so when somebodyexhibits anything resembling those
systems or conditions, we likefly off the handle around it.
We're like, how dare you?
Oh my gosh, you're a terrible person.
You're toxic, you'repre press it, whatever.

(18:18):
And.
I feel like there's like a cognitivedissonance that happens where we
don't seem to understand that.
Like we're super smart on theone hand to be able to analyze
and identify these things.
And then on the other hand, it'sas if we've just have totally
forgotten all of those things.

(18:39):
And so to me, I feel like part of whatwe are trying to do is, or at least in
my mind is to understand that, and thisis what I think where transformative
justice comes in often, right?
Like where abolition the frameworkof abolition comes in terms of just
saying we all will make mistakes.

(19:01):
We are all molded in these oppressiveand violent conditions, and we have
to figure out a way to deal with.
Harm, mistakes hurt, problematicbehavior, whatever term you wanna use.
We have to figure out a way to dealwith that generatively in a way that's
not destructive and in a way thatcan actually help to deepen and grow

(19:25):
relationship and grow love, and healingand accountability, all of these things.
And so when I like engage, or what am Isaying when I meet these kind of things
in, or I'm face-to-face with them inlike work that I'm doing oftentimes.

(19:46):
In TJ, a core concept is, thatwe're connecting incidences of
harm with the conditions thatcreated them and perpetuate them.
And w and we are saying in transformativejustice that incidences of harm
or violence cannot be separated.
From the conditions that createdthem and allowed for them to

(20:09):
happen in the first place, and thencontinue to perpetuate them and,
continue to deepen them, et cetera.
So in doing that, oftentimes whensomething happens, when these kind of
dynamics come up, I look to the conditionslike, what are the conditions that we're
in and how do we not just go toe to toewith whatever the thing that happened

(20:35):
was, whether it's, very common things likepeople who are working to end domestic
violence, for example, inside of theirorganization there is abuse happening
and like abuse of power, for example.
The, there's so many examples ofit, but that's just one, right?
Instead of looking at the oneparticular harm, we say what

(20:57):
are the other conditions?
The organization that I started is namedSOIL, and I named that it's named SOIL:
a transformative justice project, andI named it SOIL because we have to stop
planting plants in toxic or barren soiland expect them to grow and thrive,

(21:18):
and we have to look at what our soilis, what our conditions are, and work
to shift our conditions, rather thanjust screaming and yelling at the plant
and saying why didn't you grow better?
What happened?
Or expecting a giant harvestinstead of understanding that.

(21:39):
This plant is probably gonna plant,gonna produce maybe one or two
peppers this season, but we're gonnasave those seeds, plant them again.
Next time it might produce 10 or 15.
And then we're gonna save those seeds.
And the whole w while we're gonna bebuilding up our soil, if you ask any
gardener or farmer worth their salt,they tell you have to build up your soil.

(22:03):
Sometimes they do that for a year oryears before they even plant anything.
And obviously plants are part of build,can be part of building up the soil too.
But, so I'm, I say all that to say thatwhen I talk about these conditions, the
other part of the dynamic that you'retalking about is trauma and that we are

(22:27):
living in a time of incredible amounts oftrauma, both individual and collectively
and generational trauma as well.
That, and most of us don't have access tothe ki healing practices or practitioners.
We don't have access to healing thatis comprehensive or that is attuned

(22:49):
to, and what am I trying to say?
That is a about our, that isgrounded in our particular
cultural histories and lineages.
And so that is a huge part of it as well.
So I guess what I would say is, one, welook to the conditions and we look at
what are the conditions surrounding thisand how have they helped to create this?

(23:16):
And I say that to say it's not aboutletting anybody off the hook for
their own individual behavior, butit is about saying how, because to me
this is about how do we end violenceand harm, not just how do we respond
to this one particular incident.

(23:36):
And of course, because if youjust are about responding to one
particular incident, yeah, you couldscream at somebody all day long.
But if yelling and screaming atsomebody created accountability and a
shift and a change in that behavior,we would all be totally accountable.
And we would be in a very different, wewould live in a very different world.

(23:58):
But the other part of that is to also thensay, Okay, then how can we respond to this
in a way that meets the immediate needsof what happened, whether that's immediate
accountability or what have you but thatalso changes and shifts the conditions?
And how do we not get thrown off by it?
How do we be like, expect itand be like this makes sense.

(24:19):
It makes sense that somebody raised in awhite supremacist country or world would
exhibit white supremacist behaviors.
We're not accepting the that or to, we'renot gonna tolerate that, but we are gonna
understand it because we can't respond.
If we don't understand, we can't respondwell to harm if we don't understand it.

(24:41):
And that's a little bit,that was a long and rambly.

Lucia Hulsether (24:48):
No that's amazing.

Tina Pippin (24:49):
Yes.
You're talking about accountability and,engaging the groups that you teach and.
Getting toward working to understandthe conditions and to name 'em and
to name their own social locationsin that individually, systemically,

(25:11):
generation, general racially as you said.
How do you concretely to go furtherwith Lucia's previous question, engage
people in the examination of thisto of harm and violence as you're
working toward the concept of repairand getting to the heart of these

(25:39):
things so that there can be healing.

Mia Mingus (25:42):
Yeah, the beginning of engaging with folks, at least
what I, the way that I do it isI always start with yourself.
And so we always begin with, becausethe thing about accountability and
repair is that we always, most,99.9% of the time people are like,
that person needs to be accountable.
We're always lookingoutside of ourselves, right?

(26:05):
Whether it's to anotherperson, to a system, whatever.
But one, so the way that I alwaysbegin is to start looking at ourselves.
And we all have places that we cangrow around our own accountability.
And it's because we all cause harm andor have the capacity to cause great harm.
And we all have hurt peoplewe, we love or care about.

(26:28):
We all have made mistakes.
We all have acted not inalignment with our values.
And we all have done things that we areashamed about or that we are not proud of.
So I think beginning with ourselvesis a very powerful way to do that.
And for example, I have this introtransformative justice intensive that

(26:51):
I do that's really just an extendedintroduction, a transformative justice.
Who knows?
Maybe one day I'll do it at Agnes Scott.
I don't know.
And one of the things we do in thattraining is we, it's we have multiple,
many sessions in that training.

(27:11):
And so over the course of the trainingI say pick one thing that you wanna
be accountable to yourself about, notto anybody else, but just to yourself.
Maybe it's, you wanna.
Make more time for your art.
Maybe it's that you wannadrink more water in the day.
I know that's something thatI every day struggle with.

(27:33):
Maybe, one person I remember in oneworkshop was like, or one of the
trainings was like, I, my thing isthat I wanna try to eat one green
thing a day at least because I reallystruggle with eating green things.
And they're like, I don't care if it'sone P, but that's what I'm gonna choose.
And then you are buddied up with somebodyelse who is also doing the same thing.

(27:56):
And so in that, you're learningthrough that very benign little
activity on accountability thatruns throughout the entire course.
You are learning aboutyour own accountability.
You're learning about what you do andwhat you don't do because you have to
not only be buddied up with them, butyou have to be accountable to them and
check in with them and say, Did you doyour 10 minutes of meditation today?

(28:21):
Did you go on a walk today?
Whatever it is that you're doing.
And it's so fascinating because Ithink when we talk about accountability
you, even when things are small, weare, reactions are still very big.
So if somebody, if you didn't do your,if I didn't, if I didn't get my, if I

(28:43):
didn't go to sleep at whatever, 10 o'clockthat night, if that was my thing, right?
Instead of staying up till one inthe morning watching Netflix and
binging shows, I, what I find in thesetrainings is that people exhibit the
same kind of behaviors as if theydidn't do something much bigger, right?
Like they, they don't, they hideaway or they just stop texting or

(29:05):
co communicating with the otherperson, or they feel so much shame
or they don't wanna talk about it or.
And it's a way for you tolearn about what you do, right?
And what your particular behaviors orthings come up around accountability.
But then it's also on the other side, away for you to learn about when somebody
is accountable to you, what do you do?

(29:28):
So if it's me and you Tina, right?
And I didn't do my thing, for example,then that's also on you to think through,
oh, Mia has stopped communicating with me.
She doesn't respond when I callher, or email whatever The mode of
communication we've decided is right?
Like when I text her, shedoesn't respond anymore.
What's going on?
And then it's also for you tolearn and start to experiment.

(29:51):
One, to confront the stuff thatcomes up for you around that, right?
It might be like a conflict ofavoidance stuff, but it might be
fear around I don't wanna, I don'twanna reach out to her again.
Maybe she'll be mad at me, whatever.
Or it might be getting mad at me.
Or might be this kind of over aharsh teacher vibe that comes up.

(30:15):
But then also then you get to thinkthrough what are the ways that I might be
able to assist Mia in, in, in just comingto the table again so that we can talk
about what happened, not even, and then ofcourse helping me to do what I need to do.
But, so that's just like one veryconcrete example of beginning to
engage people in this, because beforewe can even get to talking about

(30:40):
repair, we have to get some of thesebasics down around accountability.
And we have to get some of thesebasics down around what your specific
pieces around accountability are.
Because they're different for everybody.
Some people run and hide, other peoplerush to address the problem, but

(31:00):
it's about fixing it and getting itto go away because they can't handle
how uncomfortable it feels, right?
And et cetera, et cetera.
There's a thousand differentmanifestations of it.

Tina Pippin (31:12):
Yeah, that's really helpful.
Thanks.

Lucia Hulsether (31:15):
I love that.
Especially because I think about, okaywhat if you stayed up, past 10 last
night and were binging Love Island.
Yeah.
And and then we're hiding anddidn't wanna talk about it.
But then if you came to me and finallywe're at the table, it pains me
to imagine that I would be like,Mia what the hell were you doing?

(31:39):
Love Island is trash.
And imagine myself beratingyou or being like, how dare you?
You're a bad activist,you're a bad feminist.
I think that that's so much easierto do if I imagine myself as not
in relationship with you, if likeI've transferred the, I if I'm like
saying, oh, I'm an abolitionist.
But what that really means isthat I'm actually just gonna

(32:00):
be a vigilant a casual cop.
This exercise is so useful because askspeople to imagine how would I respond to
someone who , hadn't been accountable?
And what does that mean Accountability isand how do we manifest accountability in
our relationships and what is helpful?

Mia Mingus (32:17):
Yes.
And because one of the thingswe know is that accountability
only happens in relationships.
It's also, I feel like a piece ofthat is also about how do I build
relationship just, period, with thisperson who maybe I'm not as close to.
And then hopefully some of that transfersout into your real life with people who

(32:39):
you are friends with or who you are inloving and caring relationships with,
where you know, of course then, You havethat relationship, which might help it.
It's so interesting what you're sayingthough, because some people, when they do
this exercise, they do it like perfectlybecause it's about being a good student.

(32:59):
It's about getting that, it's aboutthat feeling of superiority, right?
Like maybe we're paired up togetherand I'm like doing everything right.
I'm doing my meditation every singleday, or my yoga or whatever it is, right?
And you are not doing it, and it's away for me to feel superior to you.
And so also in talking and thecheck-ins that happen between the

(33:21):
buddies, it's also talking aboutwhat is motivating you, right?
Like why, how are you doing that?
Because a part of this is not only just todo it, but it's also to reflect on if you
are doing it what has been allowing that?
Sorry?
What makes that possible?
What allows for you to be able topractice it and to also examine that

(33:43):
in so cuz there's like the not doingit and then you talk about why you
didn't do it and what are the things.
But then there's also, when you doit, Huh, isn't that interesting?
And why is it that I can do itfor this exercise, but I can't do
it on my own in my everyday life?
It's like that thing of whereyou like, you'll super clean your
house if somebody's coming over andyou have a guest, but you don't.

(34:07):
And it's so wonderful.
Like for, one day after and thenit just goes back and like, why
don't we do that for ourselves?
I'm sure, maybe some peoplelistening are like, I have a
perfect clean house all the time.
That's wonderful for you.
I don't think most of us are like that.

Lucia Hulsether (34:23):
No.
And I think about the moment of sharing.
Is the person who has a wonderfulclean house, we're like, I
can help you clean your house?
What's going on there in the sharingthat you're able to do something
and I'll just help you along.
Like in what ways does paternalism showup in these moments of accountability?

Mia Mingus (34:43):
Or not?
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
It's a fascinating experiment.

Lucia Hulsether (34:50):
Even just to imagine how it plays out, I think I'm doing a
class, this class is called ORGANIZE!
Solidarity in Theory and Practice.
And one of the parts is everybodyis in a small group that's
consistent across the semester.
Groups interact with each other outsideof my presence as the instructor.
So they have their own dynamic.

(35:11):
I give a little bit of a framework forrotating chairs, rotating timekeeper,
and a number of their groups havedecided they're gonna hold each other
accountable for different practices,like going to community meetings or
doing the reading, doing the assignments.
That is not something that I asked themto do, but the language of accountability
is so pervasive, but it helps me imaginelike, how could we use the sort of

(35:34):
mainstreaming of accountability as as aterm that's happened that's circulating in
social justice circles, but also certainlyis not exclusive to them and is often
like quite carceral in it's manifestation.
Yeah.
And how can we like lean into that?
So I'm grateful for thismoment of reflection.

Mia Mingus (35:55):
Yeah.
And it's really interestingwith the, with that activity, I
don't check in on them at all.
It's a, because it's, for you, it'snot about did you do the assignment?
It's, and if you don't do it some pairsthey fall off and they don't do it.
And that's, that and it's noteven there's zero judgment.

(36:18):
Like it's really up to you.
Or maybe it's not the time in yourlife where you're able to practice
that's totally fine, but it'shere's an opportunity to do this.
And, because.
TJ is self motiv.
It, you have to be selfmotivated to do it.
It's not, accountabilityshould be proactive.
It's not something where, we don'twanna, we wanna move away from

(36:42):
like holding people accountable.
We want instead supportpeople to take accountability.
Those two things are so differentbecause holding people accountable,
oftentimes, as you're referring to,replicates a lot of the punitive
culture and caral culture we're in.

Tina Pippin (36:58):
Yeah.
And this seems so important to lay thegroundwork for dealing with these really
massive systemic issues that you do interms of abolitionism disability justice
prison we talked about prison abolitionchild sex abuse, really heavy stuff.

(37:18):
And you've created interaction andhopefully some community building
that people can get to know eachother in sometimes difficult ways.
But and then be able to have somefuel or something, I don't know what
the right word is, as they as theyapproach these more overwhelming issues.

Mia Mingus (37:46):
Yeah, definitely.
Is there a bridge from thatto, okay, we're gonna talk
about reproductive justice, or.
Prison reform or
...?To me that is the bridge because listen, if we can't even be accountable to
each other, how are we gonna demandaccountability from like another entity

(38:09):
or another large group of people?
If we don't even know whataccountability is between each other,
how will we know what it actually is?
Because again, like I said, we, ormaybe I didn't say this here, but we
throw the word accountability aroundall the time, but I don't think that
most of us know what that means.
And I don't think that most of us knowwhat it looks like, because listen,

(38:33):
questions about accountability areinevitably questions about justice.
Questions about justice are inevitablyquestions about accountability.
So what we are trying to do let'sstart small and build our muscles
up small because you don't goto the gym and just start bench
pressing 500 pounds immediately.

(38:54):
Like you gotta build up to that.
You don't sit down at a piano and justplay a, a beautiful classical music piece.
You start with the basics.
So let's start small and figure out whatdoes justice look like between each other?
Meaning what does accountabilitylook like between each other so

(39:14):
that we can actually be able tofight these systems of oppression.
And the other side of that, Tina, is notonly so that we're able to know what we're
asking for and demanding, have a bettervision of how we want accountability and
justice to look like, but also, and thisis the kicker, a lot of our movements and

(39:37):
initiatives and campaigns to fight againstthese systemic forms of oppression.
Fall apart because of internalconflict, because of, because we
don't know how to practice generativeconflict because we don't know how to
practice and take accountability forourselves, for and with each other.

(39:58):
And what we don't know how todo repair and how to do healing.
And healing, I should say,individually and collectively.
Especially collectively.
And so when those things fall apartorganizations fall apart, for example,
or campaigns or coalition work, andoftentimes you can trace it back.

(40:20):
So very small things that werenever handled well, or large things
that were never handled well.
And again, if we can't handle the smallthings between us, how will we be able
to handle the big things between usand handling the small things can help
prevent the big things from happening.

(40:41):
So to me, they're all bound up togetherbecause, work around accountability,
transformative justice work like itis, it cuts across every, there's no
demographic community group of peopleto, that are meeting together as an
organization, as a class at, whatever.

(41:03):
As a family.
There's no place where there's not harmor hurt happening or conflict happening
or full-blown violence and abuse.
And so to me these are like, Noteven just about like systemic
oppression conversations or whatever,this is just about general life.

(41:24):
Like why aren't children taught how togive a genuine apology in schools that
is more than just like this kind of,just say you're sorry and then it's done.
Like, why aren't we taught these things?
Why aren't kids in school learning aboutrepair, learning about accountability,
obviously in age appropriate ways,but like this should be a part of

(41:46):
everything we do at Agnes Scott, at everycollege campus, at every conference,
there should be a track or coursededicated to these types of things.
It should be unthinkable that people canreach adulthood without learning about
and practicing some of these skills.

(42:10):
I,

Lucia Hulsether (42:10):
I am looking at, I'm looking at the our time and
we've already been talking for solong and we could talk forever.
I am curious, so I think oneof the themes that, oh wait,

Mia Mingus (42:24):
can I just add one more thing?
I'm so sorry.
Of course.
Course.
No, go for it.
I just wanna add one morething to what I saying.
Sorry.
It's just that because I also feellike in learning these individual
skills, For, let's just takewhite supremacy for example.
Let's just take racismand white privilege.
If we learn these skills, can you imaginehow that would shift and change people

(42:47):
who benefit from white privilege, howthat would shift and change their behavior
and how they like respond to and orientto right their privilege when they have
enacted their privilege, how they're apart of a sys this broader system right of
racism, white supremacy, et cetera, thatis actively harming so many people and

(43:10):
actively abusing and being violent towardsso many people like that would be amazing.
And the same with, men andsexism, et cetera, et cetera.
So I just wanted to addthat because I feel like.
There's the campaign work, there's thesocial justice movement work around, like
fighting these systems of oppression.
But then there's also, if we all learnedthis, it would be on an individual and

(43:33):
collective basis that then would, Ithink, radically shift and change the
kinds of work we could do to dismantlethese systems on literally every level.
Okay.
I'm ready for a question now.
No,

Lucia Hulsether (43:45):
That's perfect.
I'm so glad you said that because whatI was gonna ask is about frameworks for
overcoming or dis dismantling or renderingillusory or the binary that is often
set up between praxis like individualinterpersonal justice work and like going

(44:06):
to a protest and being on the streets.
I think sometimes it's hard to recognizethat the, internal work that people
do, or the work that they do to talkto their families that is TJ work.
That is transformative and often someof the hardest, some of the hardest
conflicts to have aren't the ones thatinvolve dressing someone down from

(44:27):
a microphone, but in fact being withpeople you love and deeply care for.
And I wanna transition this intoa question about pod mapping.
I would love for you to explainto us what pod mapping is.
The reason I'm asking about it in thiscontext is that, I think one of the
things that pod mapping is identifyingwho one is in community with both

(44:50):
sort of immediate deep bonds andconnections, but also ones that are
further out within a larger network.
Sometimes those kinds of very closecommunity context are the places where
we work out exactly the how to be inconflict in more macro ways and how to
be in transformation in more macro ways.

(45:12):
I'm curious if you could tell us whatis pod mapping and how does it relate
to some of these practices of justice,transformation, and care that we've
been, that we've been talking about?

Mia Mingus (45:31):
Okay.
So first of all, I just wannasay personal and systemic
transformation are bound up together.
They cannot be separated.
There is no way that we are goingto, take down systems of oppression
and then continue to like, gohome and beat up on each other.
Like we, or vice versa have this likea politicized personal transformation

(45:55):
that's not connected to any, they'rebound up together, they're inter,
mutually interdependent on each other.
And so the work is to transformourselves as we're also working
to transform the world together.
Both/ and.
I think about Grace Lee Boggs,who who spoke a lot about that.
So in terms of pod mapping.

(46:16):
POD mapping, I couldtalk forever about it.
Okay.
So your pod are the people that you wouldcall on if you were experiencing violence,
harm, or abuse, even emergency crisis.
So like during the pandemic, for example,pods became a very big popular concept.

(46:41):
But the way that I know it, which ishow it originated, which is through
the B A T J C and which I was luckyenough to get to be a part of helping
to found and then was a member fornine years before I transition.

Lucia Hulsether (46:56):
And that's the Bay Area transformative, justice
Collective for those who don't know.

Mia Mingus (47:00):
There you go.
There you go.
And so we created pods, the conceptof pods as basically it grew
in transformative justice work.
And now it has become, in my mind,at least a ver like a cornerstone
and a foundational piece of TJtransformative justice, not Trader Joe's.

(47:24):
And because the thing about abolition workis that, and specifically TJ work, but
abolition as a whole, is that if we'renot gonna call the cops and we're not
gonna rely on prisons or even the courtsystems, for example, or foster care,
ice, et cetera, that means that it's us.

(47:46):
It's us who will have to respond to allof these many different forms of harm.
And I don't think peopleput that together.
I think it's very easy to go out andhold up a sign in a protest or put it
on Facebook or Twitter and no police, noprisons, it's much harder to build the
kind of infrastructure and relationshipsthat we're actually gonna need to do that.

(48:11):
So pods is a way to build outthat web of support and build out.
In my mind, pods is a form of communityinfrastructure that we're building.
So basically you look at your life andyou say, Who are the people in my life
that I already do or that I would callon to support me if I was surviving

(48:37):
violence, meaning violence targeted to me.
Or maybe if I did harm or causedharm or even hurt somebody or made a
mistake and really royally messed up.
Or if I witnessed violence orharm, or maybe if I, know somebody
who has caused harm, for example.

(49:00):
Pods is a way to concretely start to name,like literally name those individuals.
Who would you call?
Who are you gonna call?
Ghostbusters?
No, but to li literally list thoseindividuals and say, okay, my, these
are my, two or three pod people.

(49:21):
And I do have to say, just as a side noteIt is not uncommon for people to have
one or two pod people in the beginning.
Totally.
It's not a popularity contest.
And mapping your pod is a very, it canbe a very sobering process because you
have to remember we live in capitalism.

(49:42):
Capitalism relies on the breakingof relationships, and so we are not
encouraged, nor are we supportedto have deep, accountable quality
relationships with each other.
Most of our relationships, most peoplehave a lot more like surface level
relationships and so your pod there, youcan have as many pods as you want to.

(50:08):
I, the two pods that I think everybodyshould have though I should say three but.
The first one, everybody usuallyhas like people who can support
them when something happens to them.
Most of us have those people, most ofus have those folks who are like, I'm
down with you no matter what you do.
I love you to, to the endof the earth, whatever.

(50:30):
Most of us have at leastone person in our life.
Not all of us, but most of us do.
But the two other ones that most peopledon't have is one, an accountability
pod, meaning people that you podyour accountability pod, meaning
people that you can go to and talkto about your own accountability.
Maybe I had a friend and we had a fallingout or a fight and I, and it, and I know

(50:54):
it's my fault and I wanna apologize,but I wanna talk with my pod p people
first, get support on how, I apologize.
Maybe even run, do roleplaying andrun that apology by them first, right?
And then maybe they could say, HeyMia, that actually feels like you're
centering yourself more in this apology.
Let's do some more work.
But the second one is a local pod.

(51:16):
Everybody should have people thatthey can turn to in their city, town,
neighborhood, maybe even on your street.
And we saw this during the pandemicthat was really critical for so many
folks when people couldn't, especiallyduring lockdown, when people really
couldn't leave their house in a real way.
So accountability pod, local pod aretwo of, I think, the most important

(51:40):
pods that we can have becausethen, If something does happen, you
have people that you can turn tospecifically around your accountability.
I think the fear and the isolation whenyou mess up when you don't have that is
part of what le one of the many conditionsthat helps to perpetuate unaccountability

(52:02):
or unaccountable behavior.
Maybe that's a better way to say it.

Lucia Hulsether (52:08):
No that's so helpful and I'm really excited
for what you're gonna write about.
We'll put in the show notes theresources about pod mapping but we'll
also look forward to another versionof that we have heard through the
grapevine that, that you're writing.

Mia Mingus (52:28):
The best way to stay in touch is that, is to sign up for our
soil lister, which I know you're gonnaput the website in the thing too.
So people can, yeah.
Great.
Great.
To go off that a bit, what are youreally excited about teaching in
the moment and in the near future?
What's coming up?

(52:49):
So one of the things is this new,these new pod maps and like this more
sended pod write up, and then thetrainings that will come with that.
But really Tina, one of the things thatI talked to I'm talking on a, like a
talk show or something really, Tina.
But one of the things that I'm mostloving right now is doing these TJ

(53:15):
facilitator trainings that I've beendoing which are much more in depth.
They're like multi-year trainings andthen the TJ intensives the one-on-ones
which are just like entry level.
Those are, those have been so fun.
I've really been enjoying those.
But the, but.
The thing that I love, like one ofmy favorite trainings that I do, that

(53:37):
I get to do in the, at least in thefacilitator trainings, I get to do
these but I do standalone ones aswell, is trainings on communication.
Like basic things like how to listen,how to share accountably, what is like
active listening and how to how toeven do basic things like reflect back

(54:02):
to the person what they're saying.
I literally had a call last year, lastfall where I reflected back cuz I didn't
understand what the person was sayingand I was like trying to get clear and
I had to reflect back 16 times before weactually got to, I thought I was clear
at certain points before we actually gotto what they were actually trying to say.

(54:25):
We, again, we have a lot of work to do.
We don't even know these basicthings about communication and we
don't communicate well, which leadsto all different types of conflict.
So yes that's one thing I'd love doing.
Do you

Tina Pippin (54:43):
do these trainings with institutions of higher
education to help them heal?

Mia Mingus (54:50):
We could do it with, I'm sure I could work it out with anybody.
Let's talk.
Oh,

Lucia Hulsether (54:58):
okay.
Before we ask our last standard questionabout what you're listening to, reading,
consuming, watching, whatever that youwould, that we would all like to recommend
to our listeners, I'm wondering if there'sanything that we haven't covered before
that, that you wanna make sure thatyou that we name or lift up here today?

(55:25):
Questions you wish we hadasked us that we didn't?
Things you wanna plug?
Yeah.

Mia Mingus (55:34):
I want, I always wanna plug soil, but I do wanna
say, I don't know if I said this.
One thing I should say is thattransformative justice to me at least is
everything that I talked about on thispodcast, but like all the way up to, and
most importantly, it's a transformativejustice was created to respond to really

(55:55):
specific types of harm and violence,like domestic violence, sexual assault,
child sexual abuse, child abuse.
And so I think sometimeswe can get lost in the.
Kind of low level things,and that kind of work.
Accountability in our healing,our communication, our apologies.
But just to, I really wanna beexplicit and say like, all of that

(56:18):
is in service of being able torespond to these forms of violence
that are, have been just notoriouslyhistorically, so hard to respond to.
And that the state has reallydone a number on in particular
and criminalized so heavily.
And that, part of TJ and abolition atlarge is about not outsourcing these

(56:45):
responses that then end up coming to biteus in the, probably can't curse on here.
End up coming to.

Lucia Hulsether (56:53):
We curse all the time on this podcast.
Oh, great.

Mia Mingus (56:56):
But don't end up coming to bite us in the ass later, through,
whether it's around criminalization,punishment, et cetera, more violence more
entrenchment of social control and power.
So I always wanna be clear with thatbecause I think those forms of violence

(57:17):
in particular, even though we have thiscontradiction of, there's some of the most
common forms of violence, and yet they'rethings that nobody really wants to talk
about, they don't wanna listen about.
They don't wanna look at it.
They don't.
And that's part of why they continue.
It's not the only reason,but it's part of it.
So I do wanna say that.
And then oh, there was one morething that now I've forgotten about.

(57:43):
I.
Oh, I can't remember.
But if it comes to me, I'll say it.

Lucia Hulsether (57:49):
If you come, if it comes to you, we'll just
have a little you'll say, stop.
I, it came

Mia Mingus (57:55):
to me.

Tina Pippin (57:56):
Yeah.
And I wanna do a plug for me as sciencefiction short story in Octavia's Brood,
which when I got the book and I saw youwere in it, I'm like, oh, I know her.
Hello.
It's a, it's it does a lot of, itincludes a lot of these themes about

(58:18):
working through and and addressingviolence and interdependence.
Thank you to create the future.
Anyway, Octavia's brood

Mia Mingus (58:29):
interdependence is the way forward.
It is the only, it's ouronly chance of survival.
Yeah.

Tina Pippin (58:35):
Lu, do you wanna ask the last question too?

Lucia Hulsether (58:40):
Sure.
What are we.
Only because if I ask the last question,I don't have to answer it first.
So what are we listening to?
Reading, enjoying basking and that wewould like to that we would like to pass
on to our our listeners and to each other.

Mia Mingus (59:00):
That's so good.

Lucia Hulsether (59:02):
And Mia or Tina, you can both go first
as long as I first or second.
As long as I get to go third.
So I can

Mia Mingus (59:08):
think while you talk.
Oh
we

Tina Pippin (59:10):
know Lucia's watching Love Island, right?
Yeah,

Mia Mingus (59:12):
that's right.

Lucia Hulsether (59:15):
No judgment.

Mia Mingus (59:15):
No judgment.
No judgment here.
Yes, that's right.
Do you wanna go Tina ordo you want me to go?
You go.
Okay.
So I finally was able to justwatch everything everywhere
all at once, which was so good.
And so I was very much baskingto use your word in that.
And just Really just blown away.

(59:37):
I thought it was, I thought it wasamazing and I loved it so much.
Another thing something that I watchedrecently that I would've never watched.
It is this western called theEnglish, and it's on, I think it's
on Amazon Prime is how you watch it.
And it starts Emily Blunt and ChakeSpencer and I listen, no matter what

(01:00:03):
you think about the story or whathave you, it's about colonization
and it's, the cast is pretty much alllike white folks and native folks.
And, but I, the plug I wanna sayis, or the thing I wanna say is
that Chass Spencer's performance,he's a Native American man

(01:00:23):
playing a Native American man.
His performance and acting inthat is just, It's so good.
And so there's other thingswith e everything we watch.
Nothing is perfect, but I do think thatlike it's so rare that we get to see
native people getting to play nativepeople and also in a lead role like that.

(01:00:51):
Yeah.
So anyways, there's, I, so I wouldsay that, and then the other thing I
just wanna, okay, but the last thingI'll say that I really enjoyed is I
just recently listened to the book.
I'm a big book on tape person.
The book Platonic, which is about, Iknow attachment theory is like all the
rage, but it's about attachment theory infriendships, talking about friendships.

(01:01:15):
And it was such a good, I really loved it.
I thought it was such a good book.
And I was, Like, I was excited tolisten to it, but sometimes when
I'm excited about things, they'renot as good as I want them to be.
But I got so much out of it.
And I just think as somebody who lovesmy friends, and I love friendship,

(01:01:36):
and I think it's an underratedrelationship that I wish there was
more like art and movies and thingsjust, I wish it was like a whole genre,
just, like how we have the romcom.
Like I wish it was like a whole thinglike that for a friend Calm, I don't
know what would be called, but or like aromantic friendship stories or whatever.

(01:01:59):
I know there's a, there's somethat exist, but I really loved it.
Yeah.
And then, there's so many, I've alreadylistened to so many books this year
that I could talk about too that

Tina Pippin (01:02:13):
Okay.
One thing is one of myfavorite groups, Reiki Tanky.
Out of Charleston, South Carolina.
They do a lot of rootsmusic and they won a Grammy.
I'm real excited.
They're take a listen.
They're fantastic.
And I use 'em a lot in classes.
They do a lot of socialjustice roots music.

(01:02:35):
And then Neil Brennan's ComedyHour, I think it, I forget what it's
streaming on, it's called Blocks.
It's very creative, an artistfriend of his made blocks that he on
shelves behind him, and he pulls outa block and it represents some of
the humor jokes that he's telling,and they're very well written.

(01:02:58):
He talks about his own depression.
It's just, he was a writer for DaveChappelle on the Chappelle Show.
So he goes there in ways that are really.
Oh, he went there, and then of course,because I do apocalyptic stuff, I
have to watch the last of us and more.
I just, I get so weary of zombies,but it's this is zombie 2.0.

(01:03:26):
These are zombies that the more,it's always, I'm yelling at
the tv, shoot 'em in the head.
You always shoot a zombiein the head, not the chest.
But it doesn't matter because thesezombies are interconnected and
any kind of movement sets 'em off.
And the, there's a famous third episode.

(01:03:48):
I recommend everybody to watch itand then read Michelle Goldberg's
editorial and the New York Times on it.
So that's yeah, I've been binginga lot of apocalyptic stuff.
Oh, and one more that, it'sfunny I haven't done all, gone
through, but like two episodes.
It's a documentary called Kuk on Earth,and I'm pretty sure it's on Netflix.

(01:04:15):
And it's an actress, comedian who'sBritish, who takes on the role of a
kind of David Attenborough going allover the world making commentary,
for example in the Islamic world.
They were known for doing maths plural,and the most famous Islamic maths was al.

(01:04:41):
Jabra, it's, and then she interviewsacademics and it's just, it's really quite
funny how she's skewing the whole genreas she's trampling all over the earth.
Anyway, so

Lucia Hulsether (01:04:57):
That's amazing.
And if Al it took me it took me likeseveral beats to algebra is algebra
for if you anyone is slow like mein listening to this I, we needed

Mia Mingus (01:05:08):
to repeat that.
Yeah, that's how great.

Lucia Hulsether (01:05:12):
Thank you.
I guess it's my turn.
My really lovely friendand colleague Emily A.
Owens who teaches in the historydepartment at Brown University,
just published a book called,Consent in the Presence of Force:
sexual violence and black women'ssurvival in antebellum New Orleans.

(01:05:34):
It's a really heavy book aboutanti-black violence, about sexual
terror but also about black women'ssurvival as the subtitle indicates.
And the question that Emily asks is, ina context in anti bellum New Orleans,
when white men could have access toblack women's bodies for free when

(01:06:00):
the socially economically availableto them, why were there contexts where
people would have monetary and giftbased transactions in the sex trade?
She reframes our understanding, notonly of that historical moment, but
also about what does consent mean?
What does responsibility mean?
She makes this argument that itwhen Sex is understood in terms of a

(01:06:26):
transaction people become responsiblefor the violence against them.
And I've been thinking about discursivelyresponsible, not actually responsible,
but I think this relates to how we thinkabout accountability, how we think about
consent or non-consent how we think aboutwho is responsible for violence and not.
I think relates to this conversationwe've been having about repair . And I

(01:06:51):
just, if anyone is listening and wants ahistorical perspective on some of this,
that's also just like really beautifullywritten and a kind of historical
work that is full of care and love.
Is, I would just really recommend anythingthat Emily Owens has ever written.

(01:07:11):
And I'm really proud of thisbook that, proud of her for
this book in a Friend Way.
And since we're talking aboutfriendship and care and harm and all
of that I thought I would lift her up.
It's, and Universityof North Carolina Press

Mia Mingus (01:07:28):
just came out.

Tina Pippin (01:07:30):
Oh.
I have one more book to recommendthat's very much related.
And this is Humanitarian Capitalism.
It's Duke University

Lucia Hulsether: Capitalist Humanitarianism. (01:07:38):
undefined

Tina Pippin (01:07:41):
Yeah, capitalist humanitarianism.
And it is Duke University Press.
It just came out in January, and it'swritten by our own Lucia Hulsether.
It's fantastic.
It's very well written and it will makeyou aware of yourself in the capitalist
world and in some really important ways.
So congratulations, Lucia,on your publication.

Lucia Hulsether (01:08:05):
I thank you.
I didn't know that was coming, right?

Mia Mingus (01:08:09):
Yeah.
It's out.
It's out.

Lucia Hulsether (01:08:10):
It's out.
Yeah.
Anyway.
Mia Mingus, thank you so much for comingonto this podcast, Nothing Never Happens.

Mia Mingus (01:08:20):
Yeah.
Thank you.
No, thank you for having me.

Outro music by Akrasis (01:08:22):
Within the of Shadow and Time, there was room
for all of us, and I knew I mustextend myself until a molecules parted
and I was spliced into the image.
I never knew I could be like this.
Nobody ever kissed me the way you.

Tina Pippin (01:08:59):
Thank you for listening to Nothing Never Happens, the
Radical Pedagogy Podcast, andour conversation with Mia Mingus.
Our audio engineer is Aaliyah Harris.
Our theme music.
Is composed by Lance Eric Hoganand performed by Lance with
Aviva and the Flying Penguins.

(01:09:20):
Our outro music thistime is again by Akrasis.
It's called "Reality, is My Girlfriend,"featuring Clavius crates, Max Bowen Raps
guitar and Mark McKee Beats and Trumpet.
A Crisis Music isavailable on bandcamp.com.

(01:09:42):
After now, six years of runningThe Radical Pedagogy Podcast is
a mostly self-funded operation.
We've decided to open up opportunitiesfor our listeners to support our work.
Your donations will help cover the costfor maintaining our website and streaming
services, as well as the pay for ouramazing audio editors and student interns.

(01:10:06):
Thank you in advance for yourencouragement and support as
we've taken this journey together.
Look for us on patreon.comand thanks for listening.

Outro music by Akrasis (01:10:22):
Too many yards in the ashtray.
Too many yards in the ashtray.
I try to catalog the way I feel about it.
Something I needed in my life.
I couldn't be without it.
I scream and shout it, but I'd ratherleave a subtle trace, reach my hands

(01:10:43):
into the heavens till I'm touching space.
Just a taste of what itcould be in some time though.
Confront the mysteries that linger inthe minds so God is closer while the
devil wait patiently, and we just wantto levitate gracefully, hesitating.
That'll be your last play.
I'm serenading cabins, empty in the cache.
Cascades from the crest.

(01:11:03):
Enough fertility as the maidensI'm addressing with ferility.
It's all respect and I've been blessed.
It's something new to me.
Do what I can in accordance with my unity.
I guess it's hubris.