May 17, 2023 • 24 mins
In this episode, we delve into the power and potential of failure. What can we learn when we change our mindsets and see failure as an opportunity for growth and innovation?
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Rachel (00:07):
Hey, there beautiful people.
Welcome to NOVL Takes, thepodcast where we lift a veil on
business as usual.
Join us for our novel takes onbusiness, culture, and the art
of getting things done.
I'm partner and principal RachelGans-Boriskin
Sarah (00:21):
and I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick.
It's time for a new NOVL Take.
So I read an article the otherday that quoted IBM's Thomas
Watson Sr.
He said"The fastest way tosucceed is to double your
failure rate." The article wenton to say that in recent years,
more and more executives havecome to embrace the idea that
failure is a prerequisite toinnovation and that businesses
(00:44):
can't develop a breakthroughproduct or process if it's not
willing to encourage risk takingand learn from subsequent
mistakes.
This got me thinking about howfailure works in the workplace
and whether there's actuallyspace for it and when there is
how it's cultivated.
Rachel (01:00):
I think this is such a great topic right now because
you hear a lot of talk about theimportance of failure, but I
can't help but feel that a lotof the people who are espousing
this doctrine publicly aren'tactually as good at it I know
personally I can talk a reallygood game but failure isn't easy
(01:22):
for me.
And on a basic level, I kind offind it frightening.
What about you?
Sarah (01:29):
I think my relationship with failure is complicated.
I am not very comfortable withthe idea of failing.
I think having come up inprivate schools and being
informed by being a Black womanwho navigates predominantly
white spaces, failure issomething that can be really
(01:49):
scary for me.
At the same time, if I'mspeaking honestly, there have
been moments in my life where Ihave failed, and so getting
comfortable with figuring outwhat to do with failure is
something I have had to do.
Rachel (02:03):
Yeah, I can look back on my life and say those moments of
failure that were devastating,actually helped change the
trajectory of my life, helped megrow in all of these ways.
But you know, that's after a lotof time, maybe, you know, some
of it with therapy, right.
(02:23):
But a lot of times to understandthat that failure is a positive
is in retrospect.
So the challenge and really theinvitation
Sarah (02:33):
mm-hmm.
Rachel (02:33):
Of this current talk of the importance of failure is to
be able to be in that moment andsay, this is an opportunity to
learn and to grow.
And I think that's exciting.
It's powerful.
But it feels aspirational.
Sarah (02:53):
Absolutely.
And I think it's importantfirst, you know, especially at
the top of this conversation,that we define what we mean by
failure, right?
I think we're talking aboutthose moments when you are going
into something best ofintentions, well researched.
Well-planned well executed.
And for any number of reasons,something doesn't work out as
according to plan, right?
That's a moment where it couldbe counted as a failure.
(03:15):
Something didn't go as intended.
And these are the moments whereI'm thinking about an
environment that I used to workin where when a project failed,
there was such a fear of failurethat the team missed an
opportunity to learn from ouroperational mistakes and
immediately went to blaming andfinger pointing for who was
responsible for the failure.
Rachel (03:34):
I think that there's actually learning in a lot of
places around this.
In medical settings, inhospitals they have M&Ms
(morbidity mortality meetings).
where you're sitting there andyou're talking about what went
wrong.
Sarah (03:48):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (03:48):
In a case, because it's important to learn from that.
Here is, something that isdevastating a patient has died.
And then you have to go throughand say what happened so that
physicians can learn from it.
Sarah (04:03):
Right.
Rachel (04:04):
And that's important for the next patient.
It's important that doctors dothat.
And I think there's a lesson inthat for being able to come to
the team and say, You know what,I, I made a mistake here.
we can all come together andsay, oh, well why did this
happen?
And then how do we fix it, andhow do we prevent that from
(04:26):
happening again?
Sarah (04:27):
Right.
it's important to to have thoseopportunities to break apart
where the gap is, right?
Because failure is so oftenperceived as a personal deficit.
A gap in knowledge orperformance or ability instead
of a gap in kind of choice orcircumstance, right?
Like how did you get up to amoment and maybe make the wrong
(04:48):
choice?
And so I think that then leadsto kind of shame or avoidance of
acceptance of the failurealtogether.
It's important to pull the shameout of it, or minimize the
shame, And leave room to kind ofdo the full debrief on, on maybe
what went wrong and how we canmake it better and how we can
learn from it for the next time.
Rachel (05:06):
you were talking about, this element of shame, and I
certainly identify with that,that feeling of like, you know,
you feel the heat.
Like, oh my God, I did this, Idid this.
But I'm also struck by, youknow, there are some people who
have that kind of failure andthe initial response is not
shame and ownership, but blame
Sarah (05:26):
Right.
Rachel (05:27):
And I think that that's actually a really important
opportunity too.
Think of sort of design ofproducts where, you have
engineers, they've spent allthis time designing something,
coding it, and then they put itout to test it and it's not
working and it kind of goes to,oh, well that's user error.
Sarah (05:48):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (05:49):
Right?
And we could look at that andsay, well, the user failed, or
say there's something that's nottranslating.
If I have to keep explainingthis process to users.
Maybe this, this isn'tintuitive.
Sarah (06:07):
Right.
Rachel (06:07):
To see that as a failure of, this design as opposed to a
failure of the end user, leavesroom to design something better.
Like, you know, human-centereddesign.
Sarah (06:20):
Right.
Rachel (06:20):
So it's also how we approach those things and, and
seeing it as an opportunity andeven in that space of oh, I
recognize that this is whereit's breaking down, is this a
space where I say I need aclearer user manual, or is this
(06:41):
a space where I say,
Sarah (06:43):
you need a clearer product,
Rachel (06:44):
I need a clearer product.
Sarah (06:45):
Right.
Rachel (06:45):
that's a failure.
It might not be like huge.
I mean, it could go to marketand be okay.
But it's a failure in that it'sa missed opportunity
Sarah (06:55):
mm-hmm
Rachel (06:55):
to design something great.
Sarah (06:57):
I read this other really interesting article about
failure tolerant leaders, andthis is this was defined as kind
of executives who, through theirwords and actions, help people
overcome their fear failure, andin the process kind of create a
culture of intelligent risktaking that leads to sustained
innovation.
I think this was, HarvardBusiness Review.
And the kind of primary pointsthat they were making about how
(07:20):
failure tolerant leaders createthis kind of culture of
intelligent risk taking was fourpoints.
So it was the removal orreduction of bureaucratic
barriers the admittance ofmistakes by those leaders the
avoidance of praise orcriticism, and instead the use
of like an analytical approach.
And the encouragement ofcollaboration and ideas
(07:41):
exchange.
You have thoughts?
Rachel (07:44):
I have thoughts.
Um, I always have thoughts.
Um,
Sarah (07:46):
I wanna hear them.
Rachel (07:48):
I would add curiosity.
Okay.
To this effective leader spacebecause it's the curiosity of
how did you come to this idea?
You know, what happened?
What would've happened if wetried it this way?
Sarah (08:05):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (08:06):
What was your thinking?
That curiosity modeled in thatway also leaves space in rooms
for other people to be curious.
Sarah (08:16):
Right, right.
I think, you know, that to mefell under the kind of
analytical approach
Rachel (08:22):
mm-hmm
Sarah (08:23):
instead of that praise or criticism approach.
But I'm hearing you that maybethat needs to be broken out.
I think the way that I wasreading a lot of that is it just
felt really.
Level setting.
Each one of those tenants thatwas presented in the article
felt like it removed some of thekind of traditional hierarchical
ways of existing in an officerelationship, particularly the
(08:45):
kind of patriarchal ways ofexisting in relationship with
management, with leadership Thatkind of amplify that fear of
getting it wrong and getting itwrong for somebody else.
Rachel (08:57):
You know, this conversation wouldn't be
complete if we didn't, nod tothe fact that different people
different groups are allowed tomake mistakes
Sarah (09:08):
Yeah
Rachel (09:08):
in ways that others aren't.
Sarah (09:10):
Right, right.
I mean, at the top of theconversation I mentioned my
discomfort with failure in partinformed by being Black and
female.
And I think there is Differentkinds of pressures put on
different groups, being black,being one of them, being a
woman, being one of them that,you know, impacts whether or not
(09:34):
I am responsible for getting itright.
That idea that we also mentionedabout whether or not failure is
something that has to do withyour personal capabilities
versus, you know, somethingthat's situation specific often
is skewed depending on certainidentity markers too.
(09:56):
There can be assumptions madefor certain identities more so
than others that, a failure hasmore to do with your lack of
knowledge or your lack ofskillset or some sort of
personal deficit more so than asituation- specific deficit.
And I think that that is aburden that is then held and
often internalized by certaingroups.
(10:18):
I know it's certainly somethingthat I have internalized.
And so I am very cognizant ofnot failing in a lot of
different spaces, particularlyin white spaces that I, that I
traverse to, to be careful aboutfailing because it, may appear
that it is not a situationspecific failure.
(10:38):
That it is not a circumstantialfailure.
That it is a failure because ofa deficit of mine, a failure of
personality.
.That I am the failure, that itis not a mistake that is
circumstantial.
Rachel (10:49):
I imagine there's also in it the added responsibility
that you feel because you arethere then as like an exemplar,
right?
Sarah (11:02):
Oh, yeah.
Tokenism.
Rachel (11:04):
Right?
And, and so that it's not just Ias an individual made a mistake
because I am bad at this, butyou know, all women, Black
people,
Sarah (11:17):
right.
Rachel (11:17):
Asian people, whatever.
You know
Sarah (11:18):
right.
Rachel (11:19):
Then it's generalized, so,
Sarah (11:21):
right.
Rachel (11:21):
in the same way that there's the pressure to be great
at something because then you'regoing to show everyone how
amazing and you know, you shouldlike us and hire us and
whatever.
It's also because if we fail,
Sarah (11:39):
Right, and you're carrying the pressure of
everybody else on your shouldersas well.
I think, you know, that goesalso to this point of
representation.
I think there's more of thatthat you carry if you are a one,
a oneness in your space.
If there's only a handful ofyou, then there's more of that
added pressure.
(11:59):
If you work in a majorityminority space, there's less of
that I think.
But I know I certainlyinternalized it and I know many
others who have internalizedthat.
So there is an internalizedpressure to get things right and
to be kind of risk averse in acertain kind of way.
(12:19):
But I think that that riskaversion amplifies depending on
the type of space you're in andwho you feel like you need to
represent at that time.
Rachel (12:28):
Right.
So it's, it is both internal andexternal.
Sarah (12:32):
Right.
Rachel (12:33):
Because certain demographics are allowed to fail
up.
and certain demographics, youknow, you've gotta be 10 times
better
Sarah (12:45):
right
Rachel (12:45):
to just get the same
Sarah (12:47):
Absolutely.
Rachel (12:48):
And so the consequences are far worse depending on your
various identities.
And so again, we go to a policythat has to be pretty evenly
enforced because, you can sayall you want that everyone is
encouraged to take risks andfail but we notice in the way
that that's applied and who getshonored.
Sarah (13:10):
Absolutely.
Rachel (13:11):
And, and so that, you may not trust that feeling.
Sarah (13:13):
Right.
I mean this kind of failuretolerance has to be baked into
the policies as well.
Rachel (13:18):
Mm-hmm.
And those policies have to be
Sarah (13:21):
Enacted upon, yes.
Rachel (13:22):
Evenly applied.
Sarah (13:23):
Evenly applied.
Rachel (13:24):
Right, and probably also, you know, sensitive
managers have to be particularlyaware
Sarah (13:31):
mm-hmm.
Of the cultural differences
Rachel (13:33):
you know, and the more visible you are in a room, the
less safe it feels to takerisks.
Sarah (13:42):
Absolutely.
Rachel (13:43):
And so that really has to be, you have to feel that
your manager has your back.
You have to feel like theculture is set up that way and
it may take a little more to, tomake everyone on your team feel
safe doing that.
Sarah (14:00):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
it's also being able to create acompany that is more embracing
of risk taking.
Because when you acknowledge ina shared space that failures
happen and that they are not theend of the world, you make space
available where people learnfrom their mistakes.
(14:20):
And so, you know, not that youwanna encourage everybody to
make mistakes all the time, butthat when they happen, there's a
process for how we deal withthem.
Rachel (14:29):
Right.
Sarah (14:29):
And that risk taking can be healthy in certain
environments.
Rachel (14:33):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and you can set upprocesses mm-hmm.
Where you're saying, we're gonnaget together and we're each
gonna share regularly.
Everyone goes around, this is arisk I took, or, something that
went well this week andsomething that didn't turn out
the way you thought it would,where you're making that part of
the expectation.
Sarah (14:54):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (14:55):
And that does create innovation because we seldom
fail at things we've done thesame way a million times.
It's in this space where it'snew.
So if you're saying, I expectyou to come in with things that
didn't work quite right.
Sarah (15:13):
Right.
Rachel (15:13):
We're saying we accept fallibility, we encourage this
risk taking and the learning.
It's also sort of thatdepersonalization of it.
I'm invested in my work.
I care about it.
But my identity is not so tiedup in this one project, this one
(15:33):
thing, that it's crushing if itdoesn't work.
Sarah (15:37):
I mean, what we're talking about is the space to
try new things.
Right?
This is innovation.
This is creating a healthyenvironment to generate ideas.
Mm-hmm.
This is a healthy environment tolet those things not work.
And then have a process for whatto do when they don't, which is
try again.
Rachel (15:54):
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (15:55):
So go through that cycle again when they don't work.
And have that, like you said,decoupled from one's personal
ability to succeed the nexttime.
Rachel (16:04):
Right.
I think it's also, about amindset around resources.
Tolerance for failure goes downin a scarcity mindset.
Sarah (16:15):
Hmm.
Rachel (16:16):
So if you're sitting there saying, oh wow, this, we
only have so many resources andso much time, and you've you
know,"wasted it" on this thingthat didn't go anywhere, then
that creates a space wherethere's a lot of pressure to get
it right.
Sarah (16:33):
Right.
Rachel (16:34):
And get it right the first time.
Sarah (16:35):
Yeah.
Rachel (16:36):
ironically, it's in those moments of scarcity when
it may make the most sense totry something different, to be
innovative, to take those risks,because clearly what you've been
doing, isn't working all thatwell.
Sarah (16:52):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (16:53):
If you're in this scarcity moment, and sometimes,
you know, in those mindsets we,we kind of double down because
it, it's too frightening to takethe risk.
There's got to be a certainspace to say we value this risk
taking regardless of theoutcome.
(17:15):
I think we see it with theslashing of R&D budgets.
I mean, R&D.
Sarah (17:21):
That's your risk taking department right there.
Rachel (17:23):
Right?
Sarah (17:23):
Right.
Rachel (17:24):
And when companies are worried about the bottom line,
they're going, oh, I gotta cutthat.
And that's the very space wherethe next new thing is coming
from.
Sarah (17:34):
Right.
Rachel (17:35):
So it, it means thinking about this at a longer
timeframe, this risk taking maynot pay off this quarter.
Sarah (17:42):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (17:42):
Or next quarter.
It might not even pay off thisyear, but our timeline is
longer.
We are hoping it pays off.
And it may be that this riskdoesn't, but the learning from
this risk.
Is the one that gives you thenext big idea.
Sarah (18:00):
Right?
Right.
Rachel (18:02):
And so again, you know, that scarcity mindset but also
how you allot your budget, howyou talk to shareholders.
I mean, there's an entireculture around results that
isn't about risk taking.
So it's a whole organization
Sarah (18:20):
Right.
Rachel (18:20):
That has to agree to this.
Sarah (18:21):
Right.
That has to agree to be risktolerant to a degree.
Rachel (18:25):
Mm-hmm
Sarah (18:26):
to, to agree to have some bandwidth for failure.
But I also think that like thereneeds to be more conversation
about the relationship betweenfailure, possibility, and
innovation.
Right?
Because to the quote at the topof the podcast, there is no
space for innovation withoutfirst failure.
(18:47):
You have to get something wrongfirst before you're gonna get it
right.
We learn more from our mistakesthan we do from our successes.
There's so much opportunity forfailure and as we've already
discussed, failure is scary andit's often disincentivized.
And so, you know, it is A braveact, I think, to decide that
(19:08):
you're gonna go for somethingwhen there is a considerable
amount of risk of failureinvolved.
Rachel (19:14):
I think we can also say like, there are lots of ways to
practice this.
A comfort with failure.
Some of it is in work, in how welead meetings, in how we are in
meetings.
Sarah (19:27):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (19:27):
How we talk about things.
It's about when we talk to ourfriends and family.
Sarah (19:33):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (19:34):
Owning those things.
It's about, you know, if we'reparents, how we raise our kids,
how we talk to our kids aboutour failure, how we respond to
their failures.
Sarah (19:47):
Absolutely.
Rachel (19:47):
Because, with any luck, that's the next generation of
workers as well.
Sarah (19:53):
Absolutely.
Rachel (19:53):
And to say, yeah, I learned that I can play a sport
because it's fun, not becauseI'm going to be the best on the
team.
And maybe it would be good ifparents weren't quite so mad
when their kids lost and yelledat at referees and coaches
(20:14):
because losing is part of thelesson too.
You learn.
You go back and you watch thetapes and you go, oh, look what
we did.
Sarah (20:24):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (20:25):
And let's develop a play that compensates for that.
Sarah (20:28):
Right
Rachel (20:29):
We've gotta normalize this in so many parts of our
culture.
Sarah (20:34):
I think part of it is like each of us is gonna fail
throughout our lives.
I'm thinking, too, like thesmall failures.
What happens when you overcooksomething a little bit?
What happens when you miss anopportunity to model the
behavior that you want to foryour child?
These are like the small momentswhere, like you said, we can
(20:55):
practice
Rachel (20:55):
right
Sarah (20:56):
failing gracefully and learning from those mistakes.
And then I think the next momentis to step out of our lanes,
right?
How do we then, put ourselves ina position where failure is
possible?
So not just when we come acrossfailure- how do we learn from it
Rachel (21:15):
mm-hmm.
Sarah (21:16):
but how do we put ourselves in places where
failure is possible or probableand figure out how to navigate
those situations?
As you were talking, I wasthinking about a conversation
you and I had at one point aboutteams and cross-training teams
because that leaves room forsomeone to say like, I gotta be
(21:36):
out today.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (21:37):
And someone else can do it.
And it seems to me that that'salso the opportunity for risk
taking because you are learningmultiple parts and you may not
be as good at it
Sarah (21:50):
mm-hmm
Rachel (21:50):
as someone else on your team.
But you might actually
Sarah (21:55):
right
Rachel (21:55):
be pretty good or you might learn something from that
that's useful in this otherthing that you do.
And encouraging that learning isa way of also encouraging
experimentation and risk taking.
Sarah (22:09):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Rachel (22:10):
I think Cross-training is an opportunity.
I go back to, medicine again,It's see one, do one, teach one,
It's that process.
teaching is part of it becausethen you have to explain what
you did.
Sarah (22:25):
Right.
Rachel (22:26):
And understand that.
And that process of saying thisis how you do it, someone who's
never done it before might saywhy?
And that can be a reallypowerful question because I
don't know.
Sarah (22:41):
Yeah.
Rachel (22:42):
Why don't you do it this way?
Excellent.
Excellent question.
And then we have innovation inthat.
Sarah (22:49):
Absolutely.
Rachel (22:50):
So sharing is valuable I think about my own life-
failures as painful as theywere, were growth moments.
Sarah (23:01):
Absolutely.
Rachel (23:02):
In my career.
And, personally as well, andagain, At the moment, I wasn't
like, well, this is awesome andexciting, you know,
Sarah (23:15):
Let's do it again.
Rachel (23:16):
Yes.
I, I definitely wanna experiencethis again, like next week.
Can we go again?
But it, it's not that it'senjoyable.
Sarah (23:26):
No!.
Rachel (23:27):
And we can take a little time.
We can nurse our wounds.
Some failures are bigger thanothers.
They take a little longer.
Sarah (23:33):
Right?
Rachel (23:34):
But leaving room for that.
and understanding that, life is,is not a straight path.
Particularly less so now than itwas 20, 30 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
You had a career was a straightshot.
Now we're taking multiple paths,which means we all have to get a
lot more comfortable withfailure because when you're
(23:56):
switching lanes, yeah.
Sarah (23:58):
There might be some missteps.
Rachel (23:59):
Yeah.
Sarah (23:59):
Right.
Rachel (24:00):
All right.
We um, Don't wanna fail to keeptime here.
So if this conversation haspiqued your interest and you
wanna hear more about what wehave to say, stay tuned for
other episodes.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or wherever you get
your podcast.
Please rate and review us.
Give us some love.
Sarah (24:20):
And if you're curious about what we do over at NOVL or
think we could help you or yourorganization, check us out or
send us an inquiry over atthinknovl.com.
That's T H I N K N O V L.comThat's it for us.
Shout out to everyone who helpedus make this show.
This is NOVL Takes
Hey, there beautiful people.
Welcome to NOVL Takes, thepodcast where we lift a veil on
business as usual.
Join us for our novel takes onbusiness, culture, and the art
of getting things done.
I'm partner and principal RachelGans-Boriskin
Sarah (00:21):
and I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick.
It's time for a new NOVL Take.
So I read an article the otherday that quoted IBM's Thomas
Watson Sr.
He said"The fastest way tosucceed is to double your
failure rate." The article wenton to say that in recent years,
more and more executives havecome to embrace the idea that
failure is a prerequisite toinnovation and that businesses
(00:44):
can't develop a breakthroughproduct or process if it's not
willing to encourage risk takingand learn from subsequent
mistakes.
This got me thinking about howfailure works in the workplace
and whether there's actuallyspace for it and when there is
how it's cultivated.
Rachel (01:00):
I think this is such a great topic right now because
you hear a lot of talk about theimportance of failure, but I
can't help but feel that a lotof the people who are espousing
this doctrine publicly aren'tactually as good at it I know
personally I can talk a reallygood game but failure isn't easy
(01:22):
for me.
And on a basic level, I kind offind it frightening.
What about you?
Sarah (01:29):
I think my relationship with failure is complicated.
I am not very comfortable withthe idea of failing.
I think having come up inprivate schools and being
informed by being a Black womanwho navigates predominantly
white spaces, failure issomething that can be really
(01:49):
scary for me.
At the same time, if I'mspeaking honestly, there have
been moments in my life where Ihave failed, and so getting
comfortable with figuring outwhat to do with failure is
something I have had to do.
Rachel (02:03):
Yeah, I can look back on my life and say those moments of
failure that were devastating,actually helped change the
trajectory of my life, helped megrow in all of these ways.
But you know, that's after a lotof time, maybe, you know, some
of it with therapy, right.
(02:23):
But a lot of times to understandthat that failure is a positive
is in retrospect.
So the challenge and really theinvitation
Sarah (02:33):
mm-hmm.
Rachel (02:33):
Of this current talk of the importance of failure is to
be able to be in that moment andsay, this is an opportunity to
learn and to grow.
And I think that's exciting.
It's powerful.
But it feels aspirational.
Sarah (02:53):
Absolutely.
And I think it's importantfirst, you know, especially at
the top of this conversation,that we define what we mean by
failure, right?
I think we're talking aboutthose moments when you are going
into something best ofintentions, well researched.
Well-planned well executed.
And for any number of reasons,something doesn't work out as
according to plan, right?
That's a moment where it couldbe counted as a failure.
(03:15):
Something didn't go as intended.
And these are the moments whereI'm thinking about an
environment that I used to workin where when a project failed,
there was such a fear of failurethat the team missed an
opportunity to learn from ouroperational mistakes and
immediately went to blaming andfinger pointing for who was
responsible for the failure.
Rachel (03:34):
I think that there's actually learning in a lot of
places around this.
In medical settings, inhospitals they have M&Ms
(morbidity mortality meetings).
where you're sitting there andyou're talking about what went
wrong.
Sarah (03:48):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (03:48):
In a case, because it's important to learn from that.
Here is, something that isdevastating a patient has died.
And then you have to go throughand say what happened so that
physicians can learn from it.
Sarah (04:03):
Right.
Rachel (04:04):
And that's important for the next patient.
It's important that doctors dothat.
And I think there's a lesson inthat for being able to come to
the team and say, You know what,I, I made a mistake here.
we can all come together andsay, oh, well why did this
happen?
And then how do we fix it, andhow do we prevent that from
(04:26):
happening again?
Sarah (04:27):
Right.
it's important to to have thoseopportunities to break apart
where the gap is, right?
Because failure is so oftenperceived as a personal deficit.
A gap in knowledge orperformance or ability instead
of a gap in kind of choice orcircumstance, right?
Like how did you get up to amoment and maybe make the wrong
(04:48):
choice?
And so I think that then leadsto kind of shame or avoidance of
acceptance of the failurealtogether.
It's important to pull the shameout of it, or minimize the
shame, And leave room to kind ofdo the full debrief on, on maybe
what went wrong and how we canmake it better and how we can
learn from it for the next time.
Rachel (05:06):
you were talking about, this element of shame, and I
certainly identify with that,that feeling of like, you know,
you feel the heat.
Like, oh my God, I did this, Idid this.
But I'm also struck by, youknow, there are some people who
have that kind of failure andthe initial response is not
shame and ownership, but blame
Sarah (05:26):
Right.
Rachel (05:27):
And I think that that's actually a really important
opportunity too.
Think of sort of design ofproducts where, you have
engineers, they've spent allthis time designing something,
coding it, and then they put itout to test it and it's not
working and it kind of goes to,oh, well that's user error.
Sarah (05:48):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (05:49):
Right?
And we could look at that andsay, well, the user failed, or
say there's something that's nottranslating.
If I have to keep explainingthis process to users.
Maybe this, this isn'tintuitive.
Sarah (06:07):
Right.
Rachel (06:07):
To see that as a failure of, this design as opposed to a
failure of the end user, leavesroom to design something better.
Like, you know, human-centereddesign.
Sarah (06:20):
Right.
Rachel (06:20):
So it's also how we approach those things and, and
seeing it as an opportunity andeven in that space of oh, I
recognize that this is whereit's breaking down, is this a
space where I say I need aclearer user manual, or is this
(06:41):
a space where I say,
Sarah (06:43):
you need a clearer product,
Rachel (06:44):
I need a clearer product.
Sarah (06:45):
Right.
Rachel (06:45):
that's a failure.
It might not be like huge.
I mean, it could go to marketand be okay.
But it's a failure in that it'sa missed opportunity
Sarah (06:55):
mm-hmm
Rachel (06:55):
to design something great.
Sarah (06:57):
I read this other really interesting article about
failure tolerant leaders, andthis is this was defined as kind
of executives who, through theirwords and actions, help people
overcome their fear failure, andin the process kind of create a
culture of intelligent risktaking that leads to sustained
innovation.
I think this was, HarvardBusiness Review.
And the kind of primary pointsthat they were making about how
(07:20):
failure tolerant leaders createthis kind of culture of
intelligent risk taking was fourpoints.
So it was the removal orreduction of bureaucratic
barriers the admittance ofmistakes by those leaders the
avoidance of praise orcriticism, and instead the use
of like an analytical approach.
And the encouragement ofcollaboration and ideas
(07:41):
exchange.
You have thoughts?
Rachel (07:44):
I have thoughts.
Um, I always have thoughts.
Um,
Sarah (07:46):
I wanna hear them.
Rachel (07:48):
I would add curiosity.
Okay.
To this effective leader spacebecause it's the curiosity of
how did you come to this idea?
You know, what happened?
What would've happened if wetried it this way?
Sarah (08:05):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (08:06):
What was your thinking?
That curiosity modeled in thatway also leaves space in rooms
for other people to be curious.
Sarah (08:16):
Right, right.
I think, you know, that to mefell under the kind of
analytical approach
Rachel (08:22):
mm-hmm
Sarah (08:23):
instead of that praise or criticism approach.
But I'm hearing you that maybethat needs to be broken out.
I think the way that I wasreading a lot of that is it just
felt really.
Level setting.
Each one of those tenants thatwas presented in the article
felt like it removed some of thekind of traditional hierarchical
ways of existing in an officerelationship, particularly the
(08:45):
kind of patriarchal ways ofexisting in relationship with
management, with leadership Thatkind of amplify that fear of
getting it wrong and getting itwrong for somebody else.
Rachel (08:57):
You know, this conversation wouldn't be
complete if we didn't, nod tothe fact that different people
different groups are allowed tomake mistakes
Sarah (09:08):
Yeah
Rachel (09:08):
in ways that others aren't.
Sarah (09:10):
Right, right.
I mean, at the top of theconversation I mentioned my
discomfort with failure in partinformed by being Black and
female.
And I think there is Differentkinds of pressures put on
different groups, being black,being one of them, being a
woman, being one of them that,you know, impacts whether or not
(09:34):
I am responsible for getting itright.
That idea that we also mentionedabout whether or not failure is
something that has to do withyour personal capabilities
versus, you know, somethingthat's situation specific often
is skewed depending on certainidentity markers too.
(09:56):
There can be assumptions madefor certain identities more so
than others that, a failure hasmore to do with your lack of
knowledge or your lack ofskillset or some sort of
personal deficit more so than asituation- specific deficit.
And I think that that is aburden that is then held and
often internalized by certaingroups.
(10:18):
I know it's certainly somethingthat I have internalized.
And so I am very cognizant ofnot failing in a lot of
different spaces, particularlyin white spaces that I, that I
traverse to, to be careful aboutfailing because it, may appear
that it is not a situationspecific failure.
(10:38):
That it is not a circumstantialfailure.
That it is a failure because ofa deficit of mine, a failure of
personality.
.That I am the failure, that itis not a mistake that is
circumstantial.
Rachel (10:49):
I imagine there's also in it the added responsibility
that you feel because you arethere then as like an exemplar,
right?
Sarah (11:02):
Oh, yeah.
Tokenism.
Rachel (11:04):
Right?
And, and so that it's not just Ias an individual made a mistake
because I am bad at this, butyou know, all women, Black
people,
Sarah (11:17):
right.
Rachel (11:17):
Asian people, whatever.
You know
Sarah (11:18):
right.
Rachel (11:19):
Then it's generalized, so,
Sarah (11:21):
right.
Rachel (11:21):
in the same way that there's the pressure to be great
at something because then you'regoing to show everyone how
amazing and you know, you shouldlike us and hire us and
whatever.
It's also because if we fail,
Sarah (11:39):
Right, and you're carrying the pressure of
everybody else on your shouldersas well.
I think, you know, that goesalso to this point of
representation.
I think there's more of thatthat you carry if you are a one,
a oneness in your space.
If there's only a handful ofyou, then there's more of that
added pressure.
(11:59):
If you work in a majorityminority space, there's less of
that I think.
But I know I certainlyinternalized it and I know many
others who have internalizedthat.
So there is an internalizedpressure to get things right and
to be kind of risk averse in acertain kind of way.
(12:19):
But I think that that riskaversion amplifies depending on
the type of space you're in andwho you feel like you need to
represent at that time.
Rachel (12:28):
Right.
So it's, it is both internal andexternal.
Sarah (12:32):
Right.
Rachel (12:33):
Because certain demographics are allowed to fail
up.
and certain demographics, youknow, you've gotta be 10 times
better
Sarah (12:45):
right
Rachel (12:45):
to just get the same
Sarah (12:47):
Absolutely.
Rachel (12:48):
And so the consequences are far worse depending on your
various identities.
And so again, we go to a policythat has to be pretty evenly
enforced because, you can sayall you want that everyone is
encouraged to take risks andfail but we notice in the way
that that's applied and who getshonored.
Sarah (13:10):
Absolutely.
Rachel (13:11):
And, and so that, you may not trust that feeling.
Sarah (13:13):
Right.
I mean this kind of failuretolerance has to be baked into
the policies as well.
Rachel (13:18):
Mm-hmm.
And those policies have to be
Sarah (13:21):
Enacted upon, yes.
Rachel (13:22):
Evenly applied.
Sarah (13:23):
Evenly applied.
Rachel (13:24):
Right, and probably also, you know, sensitive
managers have to be particularlyaware
Sarah (13:31):
mm-hmm.
Of the cultural differences
Rachel (13:33):
you know, and the more visible you are in a room, the
less safe it feels to takerisks.
Sarah (13:42):
Absolutely.
Rachel (13:43):
And so that really has to be, you have to feel that
your manager has your back.
You have to feel like theculture is set up that way and
it may take a little more to, tomake everyone on your team feel
safe doing that.
Sarah (14:00):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
it's also being able to create acompany that is more embracing
of risk taking.
Because when you acknowledge ina shared space that failures
happen and that they are not theend of the world, you make space
available where people learnfrom their mistakes.
(14:20):
And so, you know, not that youwanna encourage everybody to
make mistakes all the time, butthat when they happen, there's a
process for how we deal withthem.
Rachel (14:29):
Right.
Sarah (14:29):
And that risk taking can be healthy in certain
environments.
Rachel (14:33):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and you can set upprocesses mm-hmm.
Where you're saying, we're gonnaget together and we're each
gonna share regularly.
Everyone goes around, this is arisk I took, or, something that
went well this week andsomething that didn't turn out
the way you thought it would,where you're making that part of
the expectation.
Sarah (14:54):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (14:55):
And that does create innovation because we seldom
fail at things we've done thesame way a million times.
It's in this space where it'snew.
So if you're saying, I expectyou to come in with things that
didn't work quite right.
Sarah (15:13):
Right.
Rachel (15:13):
We're saying we accept fallibility, we encourage this
risk taking and the learning.
It's also sort of thatdepersonalization of it.
I'm invested in my work.
I care about it.
But my identity is not so tiedup in this one project, this one
(15:33):
thing, that it's crushing if itdoesn't work.
Sarah (15:37):
I mean, what we're talking about is the space to
try new things.
Right?
This is innovation.
This is creating a healthyenvironment to generate ideas.
Mm-hmm.
This is a healthy environment tolet those things not work.
And then have a process for whatto do when they don't, which is
try again.
Rachel (15:54):
Mm-hmm.
Sarah (15:55):
So go through that cycle again when they don't work.
And have that, like you said,decoupled from one's personal
ability to succeed the nexttime.
Rachel (16:04):
Right.
I think it's also, about amindset around resources.
Tolerance for failure goes downin a scarcity mindset.
Sarah (16:15):
Hmm.
Rachel (16:16):
So if you're sitting there saying, oh wow, this, we
only have so many resources andso much time, and you've you
know,"wasted it" on this thingthat didn't go anywhere, then
that creates a space wherethere's a lot of pressure to get
it right.
Sarah (16:33):
Right.
Rachel (16:34):
And get it right the first time.
Sarah (16:35):
Yeah.
Rachel (16:36):
ironically, it's in those moments of scarcity when
it may make the most sense totry something different, to be
innovative, to take those risks,because clearly what you've been
doing, isn't working all thatwell.
Sarah (16:52):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (16:53):
If you're in this scarcity moment, and sometimes,
you know, in those mindsets we,we kind of double down because
it, it's too frightening to takethe risk.
There's got to be a certainspace to say we value this risk
taking regardless of theoutcome.
(17:15):
I think we see it with theslashing of R&D budgets.
I mean, R&D.
Sarah (17:21):
That's your risk taking department right there.
Rachel (17:23):
Right?
Sarah (17:23):
Right.
Rachel (17:24):
And when companies are worried about the bottom line,
they're going, oh, I gotta cutthat.
And that's the very space wherethe next new thing is coming
from.
Sarah (17:34):
Right.
Rachel (17:35):
So it, it means thinking about this at a longer
timeframe, this risk taking maynot pay off this quarter.
Sarah (17:42):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (17:42):
Or next quarter.
It might not even pay off thisyear, but our timeline is
longer.
We are hoping it pays off.
And it may be that this riskdoesn't, but the learning from
this risk.
Is the one that gives you thenext big idea.
Sarah (18:00):
Right?
Right.
Rachel (18:02):
And so again, you know, that scarcity mindset but also
how you allot your budget, howyou talk to shareholders.
I mean, there's an entireculture around results that
isn't about risk taking.
So it's a whole organization
Sarah (18:20):
Right.
Rachel (18:20):
That has to agree to this.
Sarah (18:21):
Right.
That has to agree to be risktolerant to a degree.
Rachel (18:25):
Mm-hmm
Sarah (18:26):
to, to agree to have some bandwidth for failure.
But I also think that like thereneeds to be more conversation
about the relationship betweenfailure, possibility, and
innovation.
Right?
Because to the quote at the topof the podcast, there is no
space for innovation withoutfirst failure.
(18:47):
You have to get something wrongfirst before you're gonna get it
right.
We learn more from our mistakesthan we do from our successes.
There's so much opportunity forfailure and as we've already
discussed, failure is scary andit's often disincentivized.
And so, you know, it is A braveact, I think, to decide that
(19:08):
you're gonna go for somethingwhen there is a considerable
amount of risk of failureinvolved.
Rachel (19:14):
I think we can also say like, there are lots of ways to
practice this.
A comfort with failure.
Some of it is in work, in how welead meetings, in how we are in
meetings.
Sarah (19:27):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (19:27):
How we talk about things.
It's about when we talk to ourfriends and family.
Sarah (19:33):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (19:34):
Owning those things.
It's about, you know, if we'reparents, how we raise our kids,
how we talk to our kids aboutour failure, how we respond to
their failures.
Sarah (19:47):
Absolutely.
Rachel (19:47):
Because, with any luck, that's the next generation of
workers as well.
Sarah (19:53):
Absolutely.
Rachel (19:53):
And to say, yeah, I learned that I can play a sport
because it's fun, not becauseI'm going to be the best on the
team.
And maybe it would be good ifparents weren't quite so mad
when their kids lost and yelledat at referees and coaches
(20:14):
because losing is part of thelesson too.
You learn.
You go back and you watch thetapes and you go, oh, look what
we did.
Sarah (20:24):
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (20:25):
And let's develop a play that compensates for that.
Sarah (20:28):
Right
Rachel (20:29):
We've gotta normalize this in so many parts of our
culture.
Sarah (20:34):
I think part of it is like each of us is gonna fail
throughout our lives.
I'm thinking, too, like thesmall failures.
What happens when you overcooksomething a little bit?
What happens when you miss anopportunity to model the
behavior that you want to foryour child?
These are like the small momentswhere, like you said, we can
(20:55):
practice
Rachel (20:55):
right
Sarah (20:56):
failing gracefully and learning from those mistakes.
And then I think the next momentis to step out of our lanes,
right?
How do we then, put ourselves ina position where failure is
possible?
So not just when we come acrossfailure- how do we learn from it
Rachel (21:15):
mm-hmm.
Sarah (21:16):
but how do we put ourselves in places where
failure is possible or probableand figure out how to navigate
those situations?
As you were talking, I wasthinking about a conversation
you and I had at one point aboutteams and cross-training teams
because that leaves room forsomeone to say like, I gotta be
(21:36):
out today.
Mm-hmm.
Rachel (21:37):
And someone else can do it.
And it seems to me that that'salso the opportunity for risk
taking because you are learningmultiple parts and you may not
be as good at it
Sarah (21:50):
mm-hmm
Rachel (21:50):
as someone else on your team.
But you might actually
Sarah (21:55):
right
Rachel (21:55):
be pretty good or you might learn something from that
that's useful in this otherthing that you do.
And encouraging that learning isa way of also encouraging
experimentation and risk taking.
Sarah (22:09):
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Rachel (22:10):
I think Cross-training is an opportunity.
I go back to, medicine again,It's see one, do one, teach one,
It's that process.
teaching is part of it becausethen you have to explain what
you did.
Sarah (22:25):
Right.
Rachel (22:26):
And understand that.
And that process of saying thisis how you do it, someone who's
never done it before might saywhy?
And that can be a reallypowerful question because I
don't know.
Sarah (22:41):
Yeah.
Rachel (22:42):
Why don't you do it this way?
Excellent.
Excellent question.
And then we have innovation inthat.
Sarah (22:49):
Absolutely.
Rachel (22:50):
So sharing is valuable I think about my own life-
failures as painful as theywere, were growth moments.
Sarah (23:01):
Absolutely.
Rachel (23:02):
In my career.
And, personally as well, andagain, At the moment, I wasn't
like, well, this is awesome andexciting, you know,
Sarah (23:15):
Let's do it again.
Rachel (23:16):
Yes.
I, I definitely wanna experiencethis again, like next week.
Can we go again?
But it, it's not that it'senjoyable.
Sarah (23:26):
No!.
Rachel (23:27):
And we can take a little time.
We can nurse our wounds.
Some failures are bigger thanothers.
They take a little longer.
Sarah (23:33):
Right?
Rachel (23:34):
But leaving room for that.
and understanding that, life is,is not a straight path.
Particularly less so now than itwas 20, 30 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
You had a career was a straightshot.
Now we're taking multiple paths,which means we all have to get a
lot more comfortable withfailure because when you're
(23:56):
switching lanes, yeah.
Sarah (23:58):
There might be some missteps.
Rachel (23:59):
Yeah.
Sarah (23:59):
Right.
Rachel (24:00):
All right.
We um, Don't wanna fail to keeptime here.
So if this conversation haspiqued your interest and you
wanna hear more about what wehave to say, stay tuned for
other episodes.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or wherever you get
your podcast.
Please rate and review us.
Give us some love.
Sarah (24:20):
And if you're curious about what we do over at NOVL or
think we could help you or yourorganization, check us out or
send us an inquiry over atthinknovl.com.
That's T H I N K N O V L.comThat's it for us.
Shout out to everyone who helpedus make this show.
This is NOVL Takes
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