June 12, 2023 • 32 mins
In this episode, we talk with Allyson Raines and David Sylvester- experts in the power of optimism- to discover the secrets to cultivating an optimistic view and the power that comes with this perspective.
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(00:08):
Hey there, beautiful listeners.
I'm Rachel Gans-Boriskin, one ofthe hosts of NOVL Takes.
I wanted to give you a quickheads up.
Starting this week, Sarah and Iare going to be changing up our
format, bringing new voices andinsights into our conversations.
While we are really excitedabout this week's episode, we
(00:28):
want to let you know that ourguests had a little technical
difficulty and at times, thesound is a bit glitchy.
We apologize and hope you enjoytheir insights, nonetheless.
Okay, let's get back to ourregularly scheduled podcast.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (00:46):
Hey, there beautiful people.
Welcome to NOVL Takes, thepodcast where we lift the veil
on business as usual.
Join us for our novel takes onbusiness, culture, and the art
of getting things done.
I'm partner and principal RachelGans-Boriskin.
Sarah Patrick (01:01):
and I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick.
It's time for a new novel take.
You've heard it before.
The optimist sees the glass halffull and the pessimist sees the
glass half empty.
So today we're filling ourglasses to somewhere in the
middle and figuring out how totalk about it.
Or to put it another way, we'regoing to talk about optimism in
the workspace and beyond, andwhat kind of roles optimism
(01:23):
plays, and how we maintain it inchallenging environments.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (01:26):
Something that caught my attention
recently was a series ofarticles about the importance of
hope.
People need to feel hopeful inorder to accomplish their goals,
and of course, this makes sense.
If you think something can't bedone, why bother trying it at
all?
But the articles seem to besuggesting something deeper.
An optimistic disposition or atleast outlook, and it occurred
(01:50):
to me that I'm not really greatat optimism.
It's certainly not my defaultand while I think you, Sarah,
have many strengths, I'm notsure optimism is high on your
list either.
So it seemed to me we needed totrack down some truly optimistic
folks to get their view on thesubject, and hopefully they can
(02:11):
help us see the fullness of ourown glasses as well.
Sarah Patrick (02:15):
We're joined today by David Sylvester and
Allyson Raines.
David and Allyson, will you letthe people know who you are?
Allyson Raines (02:21):
My name is Allyson Raines.
I'm the chief of staff andoperations at the National
Democratic Training Committee.
David Sylvester (02:28):
My name's David Hale Sylvester and I'm'basically
a professional hugger.
Go around the world, hugging andhigh fiving people and I've been
to 42 countries and all 50states and hugged well over half
a million people in the last 22years.
Sarah Patrick (02:43):
Thank you both for being here.
We are so excited to have you onthe podcast.
We're gonna dive right in.
One definition I read in a fastcompany article recently
suggested that an optimist, issomeone who believes that
tomorrow can be better thantoday and takes an active role
in making it so.
So, I'm curious out the gate,what does optimism look like to
(03:04):
you, or what does it mean to bean optimist?
David Sylvester (03:07):
I believe that optimism is just believing that
you have a chance.
Just a chance.
I think as long as I have achance to do well, to achieve,
to win that's it.
I've lived on maybe andpossibly, and potentially my
whole life., And that's it.
And can do a lot with that.
Allyson Raines (03:26):
I'd agree fully, David.
You know, I do social justiceand social change work.
That requires optimism.
It requires a belief that if youdo things, if you engage and
activate enough people, you cancause systemic change in
whatever system you're workingin.
So I think for me, optimism isinherent in all that I do.
(03:46):
And you can't not be an optimistin politics.
You have to believe that changeis real, that change is
attainable, and that you justneed to figure out the path and
the direction towards the changeyou wanna see.
Sarah Patrick (03:58):
Allyson, you're speaking to the role that it
plays in your work, right?
I wonder if you can say moreabout that.
Allyson Raines (04:05):
Yeah, at the National Democratic Training
Committee, in all politicalwork, we are trying to make
change.
And that change spectrum reallyranges across all social justice
work.
There are folks who do directservice to create change,
believe in the optimism ofsupporting each other as just
human beings and meeting ourneeds all the way down to folks
who wanna work completelyoutside of the system to tear it
(04:28):
down and build a new one, andare optimistic and believe that
that is true and possible.
I am also somewhere in themiddle.
I'm a work within the systemgal.
I think democracy is freakingcool and I wanna work within
that system to motivate thatsystem towards its best version
of itself, where we are allactually engaging in shaping the
(04:49):
way that our culture and ourcountry operate.
So for me in my work, it's allday every day.
Now it comes down to like asmaller strategy piece of what I
do in my current role aroundtraining people and motivating
them to run for office and workon campaigns.
But I think that same throughline of all of this is the
(05:10):
belief that something can andshould change, and that if we
find enough folks who believe inthat same change with us, that
we can actually motivate it.
So optimism is all over theplace.
Despite it being paired verydeeply with anger, it's a
contradiction in me.
I gotta be angry enough to feelthat something needs to change
and optimistic enough toactually work towards
(05:31):
accomplishing it.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (05:33):
It's interesting to hear you talk
about that, Allyson, because Ithink, David, you come from a
different place on this, that amotivation isn't necessarily
anger, and your optimism isn'tkind of within this change
framework, although I think yourwork does change people.
(05:54):
I wonder if you could talk alittle about that.
David Sylvester (05:57):
Yeah.
My my work is much moreindividual.
My thing is not about, any kindof systematic anything.
My thing is just like, Hey,listen, let's talk about you and
your day.
And what's going on and how wecan make things better and how
we can infuse some optimism andsome hope into that to change
your current situation.
(06:18):
We'll worry about everythingelse later.
Or let other people like Allysonand yourselves worry about the
systems.
You can worry about that lateron.
But right now what we're gonnado is, work on changing just the
environment in our own brains.
our outlook.
And then from there We're gonnamove forward.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (06:34):
And, what would you say your medium of
that is?
David Sylvester (06:38):
I mean, it just starts with a hug.
And it also starts with my basicstory.
I mean, it's the fact that if Ibelieve certain narratives about
travel, about anything, I wouldnot be traveling around the
world, hugging and high fivingpeople going to remote cities
Going to the smallest city inNorth Dakota, hugging the whole
(06:59):
city hugging my way outtaspeeding tickets, hugging my way
outta fights with motorcyclegangs, I would not believe that
that's possible.
So the mere fact that I existand that my story is out there
and I have pictures and all thisstuff to prove it.
Listen.
I am walking hope.
I'm walking sunshine.
You can't deny me.
Allyson Raines (07:19):
Well, David, I.
think the thing that connects ustoo is that it sounds like we
share that belief in theinfinite potential of humanity.
David Sylvester (07:28):
without question.
But, know, my thing is justlet's talk about this individual
circumstance that you're in andlet's try to figure out how to
make this better.
a lot of times when I share mystory all of a sudden people
open up to a lot of things and aa lot of stories about, abuse or
about, you know, being sick orabout whatever.
And they just, they want a rayof hope.
(07:48):
And I now have met so manypeople, I can offer a story or
an anecdote that can providethat hope just for a moment, you
know?
I mean, you know, it soundscorny, but David Bowie said, we
can be heroes just for one day.
And if we can be heroes for oneday, then we can be heroes for
another day as well..
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (08:08):
So, you know, I, I hear you talking
there about how you stayoptimistic.
Allyson, it strikes me that weare living in pretty trying
times, pretty tense politically.
I wonder how you stay personallyoptimistic in these kinds of
(08:28):
times.
Allyson Raines (08:30):
Yeah, it's actually very similar to what
David is saying.
It's all about the people thatare coming together to do the
work that my organization does.
Those are the stories thatmotivate me, and I found this
throughout my career, workingwith actual people out in
communities and hearing them andwatching them go through the
transformational experience thatis political activation.
(08:52):
Like that is what gets me going.
All I wanna do is turn people onto the power that they have to
change their lives, theircircumstances, and the power
that they have.
So it's very much about thatpersonal connection.
It's about hearing those sharedexperiences and stories,
connecting that to people'sself-interest and the moment
(09:13):
that we're in.
What keeps me going is when yousee that learner go through that
transformational aha moment.
And I can still even get thatvery internally as a manager.
I always say I have two Northstars for my career.
I wanna build things that lastwell beyond me.
I don't want it to just bedependent on my effort, and I
always wanna be in positionswhere I'm impacting other people
(09:36):
and helping to shape and coachthem to create the same impact I
feel like I can make.
I can exponentially grow if I'minvesting in others.
So even watching staff memberswho I'm coaching on that sort of
culture and strategy work that Ihave with the chief of staff hat
on, like watching them gothrough that and have those
professional growth experiences,it's really those individual
(09:58):
transformational moments thatkeep me engaged and help me keep
track of the fact that it isconstantly possible.
There is never a lack ofopportunity to transform folks
and bring them more activelyinto the systems and more
actively becoming themselves andwho they wanna be.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (10:15):
It's funny to hear you talk.
It makes me reflect on, myself.
I've had, I think two Northstars as well, and they've been
actually, my grandparents Mygrandfather was a lawyer and he
fought for civil rights and hewas somebody who actually
changed the laws of the UnitedStates.
And for me, for a long time, Ifelt like I needed to do that.
(10:39):
Like I wasn't gonna be a successunless, I could point to
something big in the world with,my name on it.
And the other was my grandmotherwho had four kids and treated
everyone she ever met withdignity and kindness and saw
everyone and that mattered somuch.
(11:00):
And I felt in my own life, Imight not be able to be my
grandfather that wasn't given,but I had so much control to be
my grandmother, to be thatperson who saw people.
And so I, I feel like listeningto the two of you, there's a
little of both of that and, andmaybe just maybe I actually have
(11:21):
more optimism in me than I knew.
So I, I wanna thank you for thatreframe.
Sarah Patrick (11:30):
I'm marinating in this.
I think the thing that's comingup for me is the opportunity of
optimism each day.
I'm really listening to thestories of personal motivation
that come alongside optimism andit sounds like each of you kind
of takes each day at a time.
And I think part of the morerealistic or pessimistic hat
(11:54):
that sometimes I wear comes withthinking well too far in
advance.
And considering, multiple seriesof events And I'm listening to
you all talk about optimism andI'm wondering if maybe it's a
function of thinking in shortersprints and not thinking
necessarily short term, butthinking about things in sprints
(12:15):
and thinking of things asopportunities when you think
about it in sprints.
That's all that I'm kind ofsitting in right now.
David Sylvester (12:21):
So you said that you, you think ahead So
that means that five years ago,10 years ago, a year ago, a
month ago that this great daythat's happening, right now when
you have your own business,where you have your own podcast,
where you're talking tooptimistic people, According to
you, this day should not havehappened.
Probably would not have happenedagainst your own projections.
you're living an optimisticpoint right now.
(12:45):
Like you're in it.
So your thought process yearsago, a week ago, whatever, in
the past.
It's just wrong.
You should be an optimist.
Sarah Patrick (12:57):
Absolutely.
It negates the possibility of myown.
Yeah.
David Sylvester (13:01):
Right.
So, I mean, you yourself andyour smile in this moment right
now is proof that there'ssomething to be optimistic
about..
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (13:11):
David, you have always been, I think, an
optimistic, irrepressiblespirit, but the origins of hugs
and high five comes from areally dark moment and I wonder
if you could talk about that alittle cuz it speaks to sort of
(13:32):
the power of, optimism.
David Sylvester (13:35):
So I've been doing this ever since my friend
got killed in the World TradeCenter September 11th, and I did
not want my friend to die onthat day in that way.
And so I wanted him to live on,and so I rode my bicycle across
the United States and no matterwhere I rode no matter who I
talked to, everybody wanted totalk about my friend or express
(13:57):
their thoughts on 9/11 No matterwhat conversation I had, it
ended in a hug and it ended in ahigh five and it ended in a
moment of hope.
And it made me think about hopeand optimism and, my friend
living on in another way.
And, when people started tellingme how I inspired them and what
they were going to do I felttethered to their good deeds One
(14:20):
person said that they were gonnawork in a community garden just
cause of what I did.
Another person said, they weregoing become a big brother.
And when people would tell methese things, I, felt tethered
to these good acts, so I wantedto do more.
So I went on to ride my bicycleacross Africa- from Cairo to
Cape Town and in Asia, fromIstanbul to Beijing, and two
more times across the UnitedStates.
(14:42):
And then my story, pivoted alittle bit, and I switched
vehicles.
I started driving across thecountry and so I have done three
48 state drives across thecountry, delivering hugs and
high fives.
Because people need that hope.
People need that.
More so than ever, people needto see not just hope, but I
think people need to seegoodness and action on an
(15:04):
individual basis.
Again, I was never a group guy.
I was never, a coalition type ofguy.
I am an individual And I thinkpeople need to see individuals
in action.
One person called me, the BlackJohnny Appleseed, you know, just
going out, just hugging and highfiving people, and I'm cool with
that.
Allyson Raines (15:23):
Well, what I love about what you said too, in
that David, besides the, 1980song call out there in your own
version but what I really loveis you started to hit on how
optimism infuses all that we do.
And yesterday someone saidsomething to me that you just
contradicted in a great way of,they said, no one likes learning
(15:43):
and growing.
It's all something we know weneed to do.
And I was like, that's just nottrue.
I like legitimately like it,like I wanna keep doing it.
I think I have more that I cando in the world.
I have more growth that I canbe.
We can all become someone thatwe all like better, And so I
think that's been a theme for mehearing our conversation is
optimism feeds so much ofdifferent things we do.
(16:05):
Sarah, you earlier were askingus about our timeline, and I'm
like, oh.
It's like optimism makes meincredibly stubborn.
I will see the problem and Iwill figure out how to fix it.
It might take me a coupleiterations.
It might take a whole lifetimeor a career.
My name won't be on anything butthat slow positive belief that
if I keep trying, if I keepgrowing, if I keep working, it
(16:28):
will happen.
So it just, it infuses all thatwe do.
You can't just be optimisticover here.
It becomes part of yourself.
Sarah Patrick (16:39):
I'm hearing both of you talk about the
relationship between optimismand action.
And Allyson, you talk about theinfusion of optimism through
everything that you do.
And I'm wondering if you see tooa relationship between optimism
and drive or optimism andindustriousness.
And you know, whether or not yousee some sort of connection
between those things.
Allyson Raines (17:00):
Yeah, I mean, definitely I have to have hope
that if I keep going, even inhard moments, that it will get
to another easier moment.
And so I feel like absolutely,but we're also talking so much
on a big global level of the waywe think and view the world.
And so I wanna just admit likethere are times I'm super
(17:20):
pessimistic.
There are times where I'm justlike pissed off and angry and
frustrated.
And there are times where itdoes feel like we're not gonna
get there or we're not gonna getthere as well as I wanted or as
fast as I wanted.
But overarching that belief thatI can get there is still always
there and it helps overcomethose sort of hiccupy moments
(17:42):
though I would love to throwthis back cuz David, you seem
like a person very much like me,who everyone always sees our
happy go lucky sides.
And the moment, bigpersonalities, big happy people
have those moments where wearen't in that way, it stands
out huge.
People pick up on it really fastand in quick ways, and I wonder
if you've had that experience.
David Sylvester (18:04):
people do pick up on it very quickly.
There was one time when I wasreally down and somebody said,
God, if you can get down, thenGod help us all.
And it really made me sort ofalmost check myself and realize
what I represent to people We'reall presenting something and I
had no idea that my positivitymeant so much to those around
(18:25):
me.
And and it didn't changeanything, but it did make me
change my posture in that momentand just stand up a little bit
straighter and just realize,okay, for those around me, I
have to project, like thismoment is not beating me down
so, much.
(18:45):
And it took a little while.
But like you said, you find away, you find a way through it
and I found a way through itbecause I've been optimistic so
many other times and I just hadto, turn the moment around.
But I think a lot of timespeople think that optimistic
people, like we never have a badday There's always bad days.
But you know, what am I gonnado?
Mope about it?
I mean, who wants to be aroundthat person?
(19:07):
Who wants to be around theperson that mopes all the damn
time?
We all have caller ID now,right?
And if someone is mopey, mopey,and it's always, oh my God, the
sky is falling or whatever, yousee that person's name on your
phone, are you gonna answer it?
No, you're not.
You're not.
Because who wants to hear thatcrap?
But the friend They haveproblems, but when they talk to
(19:28):
about their problems, there isan option, should I go this way
or that way, or whatever.
It's not a dead end, You'll takethat person's call.
You listen to that personbecause that person is always
looking for a way to moveforward.
The person that just wanna sitthere and turtle up, you don't
wanna talk to that person.
And the older you get, you'relike, man, is this person ever
(19:51):
gonna get it together?
And so like why be that person?
You know, a good friend of minewho's a, professor said, talking
to her students it's likedueling miseries Dueling
miseries That's not right.
That's not right for youngpeople to be sold a bill of
goods of what they can't do inthis world about where you can't
(20:14):
go and stuff like that.
There's so much that can happen.
There's so much to be optimisticabout, you know?
Is the world perfect?
No, not by a long shot.
You know, but we have anopportunity to make it better.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (20:27):
I hear the inspiration of it and thinking
in, work contexts, teamcontexts, how you see
particularly Allyson in yourwork, how optimism plays a role
in teams and in team building.
Allyson Raines (20:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think optimism might be one ofmy biggest strengths as a leader
and being that cheerleader.
And it doesn't mean that I'm notpragmatic and it doesn't mean
that there isn't real talk.
I have been called someone withvery high expectations and a lot
of directness and I pride myselfon that.
I think being clear is kind andI think making the implicit
(21:07):
explicit is the best, mosthopeful way of gaining the
alignment that we need to docollaborative work that is
inclusive of all of ourexperiences and mindsets.
We all know both from justactually doing and feeling good
work like that, but also theresearch.
We need some of that emotionalsecurity.
And I think to David's point,you don't get a lot of emotional
(21:29):
security when everything is adowner.
You kind of need a cheerleaderto keep the motivation up and to
keep things going and to keepfocused on the hopeful outcome
we're trying to achieve.
I often say We live in a worldfull of tension at the National
Democratic Training Committeewhere we are really trying to
build our internal organizationin the world that doesn't yet
(21:50):
exist in the world as it shouldbe.
And we have to deal with andface the realities of what is
the world we are currentlyliving in.
But we need that optimism.
We need to believe that it'spossible so that we have the
motivation to work towards itevery single day.
And we all know that variousdifferent types of people on
teams make up the strongestteams.
(22:10):
So a couple of years ago, I hadan experience where a staff
member that I worked withprobably a decade before, sent
me a note just saying, You hadfaith and you convinced me, you
gave me the optimism that Icould actually achieve the
things I wanna do, and I wannasend you an email to let you
know I just got this job and Iwould've never even saw myself
(22:34):
in a job like this if you hadn'tgiven me that optimism for the
career path I wanted when I wasan intern.
But so I think it's important ina leader, it's not always
necessary.
Leaders aren't always just thebig boisterous cheerleader.
We all have our place to bedifferent kinds of leaders, but
I do think if a leader is apessimist, it brings everything
(22:55):
down.
It ruins motivation.
It ruins productivity.
Sarah, you said industriousness,and I'm like, whoa.
That's really sticking with meof like, how much does my
optimism motivate that continuedaction and continued plugging
away at the change that I wannasee.
So I think it's incrediblyimportant in team-based settings
(23:16):
and we all have a place inteams.
I recently read something whereit was like, pessimists are
kinda great to have on yourteam.
They're gonna highlight everypotential risk and problem.
So it's not to say that we allneed optimism.
We need a little bit of it all,We need all kinds of folks, but
at the end of the day, I'm like,Ooh, as a leader, optimism is
(23:38):
key.
David Sylvester (23:39):
I always talk to the haters.
there's people that hate all mystuff and hate on the hugs and
high fives And so whenever Ihave a trip that I'm planning or
a project I tell my haters., Imean, I tell'em first because
they point out the holes first,first and foremost and loudest.
And you know, my thing is thatif I have very clear, concise
(24:00):
answers for all of the hatersout there, then I know it's good
for everybody else.
So, I need the haters in mylife.
Love'em.
Love'em..
when this started off 22 yearsago, I didn't have to look for
haters, they were alleverywhere.
But as I've gone on, the numberof haters has just really,
Dwindled.
Now I only have two haters left.
Hey Sarah.
Hey Rachel.
Sarah Patrick (24:22):
That's not fair.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (24:23):
Not fair.
Not cool.
Allyson Raines (24:25):
and I do wanna say like, I think one of the I
think this is gonna go with oursilliness in this moment too.
I think one of the best things Iever read about being an
optimist is optimists are alwayslate.
We always think we can get somuch more done in the short
period of time that we have, andwe believe it can happen.
So we're always two minuteslate.
(24:47):
So you definitely need optimistson your team, but you need other
folks too.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (24:51):
The pessimists are the ones who set
your watch five minutes fast sothat you arrive three minutes
early despite yourselves.
You know, I think that there issomething beautiful here too
about the tension betweensystems and individuals, between
short term and long term, andthat it's in the union of these,
(25:16):
in the tension that we havehope.
you know David, you bring hopeto people in their darkest
moments.
You've gone to these locationsof mass shootings and hugged
people in their darkest momentsand it is actually that
juxtaposition of love in themoment of hate that is so
(25:41):
powerful.
The very fact that there isoptimism when things are dark,
is itself, I think so moving forpeople.
David Sylvester (25:49):
when I go to these places, more so than
anything those people need hope.
And what I let them know is thatmy story was born of tragedy too
and you wi ll love again.
You will smile again.
You will trust humanity again.
And what better way to repairthat bond, that rip in the
fabric, that shooting or act ofmass mayhem has created than,
(26:12):
than hugging a stranger.
Because really at that point,you know what act is more
loving, more intimate, morecommunicative to anybody that's
even just viewing us from theoutside.
Just a hug, just a, you know,and, and that's it.
People need, need hope.
I think that acts of legislationtakes so much time and seems so
(26:34):
far away and takes governmentsand protests and a lot of stuff
to happen, but instilling hopecan happen right away
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (26:42):
one other thing I was thinking about and
I've mentioned it on the podcastbefore, is a gratitude practice
I started about a year and ahalf ago where, every day I
write a page a single page ofwhat I'm grateful for.
And, people who meet me now willsay, well, I'm not a grateful
person I just couldn't do that.
And I say, well, I didn't starta gratitude practice because I
(27:04):
was grateful.
I started the gratitude practicebecause I was angry all the
time, and it's a practice,right?
It's a gratitude muscle that youhave to exercise.
in the beginning it took so muchto come up with anything to put
on that page.
And then, because I didn't wannadeal with that at night, I'd be
(27:25):
going through my day going, oh,well that's a beautiful, flower.
I could be grateful for that,or, that's a beautiful sunset.
And I'll be grateful for that.
And eventually being like, I'mso lucky to live in a place
where when I drive over thishill I see this beautiful view
every time.
And that it was the practicethat has made me more grateful
(27:47):
and able to see those things.
So what tips do you have forpeople to exercise their
optimism, their hope muscles?
David Sylvester (27:59):
I'll say this, that I have gone to a lot of
hospices to go hug people I'vemet a lot of people who were
essentially on their deathbed,and none of them, none of them
ever said, I wish I had boughtthat Mercedes when I was 20, or,
I wish I, had more money Whatpeople talk about in their dying
days are just, moments, momentsof happiness.
(28:22):
I was at a hospice in New Mexicorecently, and the woman was just
talking about the smell of freshcut grass.
the, the power of a smile, therandom winks that she got in her
lifetime, just, just the simplepleasures of life.
And we were sitting down whileshe was eating and she just
said, you know, another thingthat I really like, just, just
people spending time with me.
(28:43):
And I asked her what a hug meantto her and she said, it means
somebody loves me.
And that's all anybody wants.
All anybody that's on theirdeathbed wants one more day, one
more day to see their lovedones, to see the sunshine, to
feel its warmth, you know, to,to have a chance at basking in
love.
(29:03):
We all want the same things inlife, Hey, listen man, this
moment is beautiful.
this very moment, is justawesome.
Looking at the plants behindyou, Rachel is great.
Looking at your face there,Sarah, it's great.
Looking at your smile, Allysonis great.
Like that's, I'm grateful forthat.
That's, yeah, what I got tocomplain about, I'm hanging out
with three beautiful women.
That's awesome.
(29:24):
And so it is, I think, it is thesimple things, it is the simple
things in life.
Allyson Raines (29:31):
David, I don't think we could have been a
better pair for this cuz wereached the same conclusions in
wildly different ways I am verylogical.
I'm very pragmatic.
I live in the gray You don'thave to be purely optimistic or
purely pessimistic.
You can have faith in yourself.
You can believe in what you arecapable of and cultivate that,
(29:51):
like you said Rachel, around apractice of these things.
So for me, a lot of it is, hasreally been born of convincing
myself I can do it and been bornfrom the confidence that I wanna
cultivate to make the changethat I wanna see.
But not only is that same sortof like lovey dovey, I believe
(30:13):
in it all right now and righthere that David is sharing.
And we need both kinds ofpeople.
So if it's something that thatfolks who are listening don't
feel comes natural to them.
Like David and I are sharing, itdoes come somewhat naturally to
us.
I've definitely had to pair thatwith some logic and some
reflection and some belief inmyself that, no, I'm optimistic
(30:34):
because I believe in me.
I know I can work hard.
I know I can do these things,and that wasn't something that
that was born overnight.
I had to cultivate thatconfidence and that belief in
myself.
And so I think it's totally okayto live in the gray.
To, to live in that tension of,it's not all roses and sunshine
always, but I need to believethat the roses and sunshine are
(30:55):
possible.
So I think that that's reallyhow I've tried to cultivate it
and the tips that I couldprovide is, it's okay to say
it's not possible right now, butI think it is possible in
general and what's my pathway toget there?
the path may not be clear rightaway, and that's okay.
It's okay to say I might befailing in this moment, but I
know that this failure will getme closer to the actual
(31:17):
solution.
I think it's that tension that Iembrace that helps actually
cultivate optimism right
David Sylvester (31:23):
I think you do have to cultivate things.
Like this is work.
This is work that Allyson and Imake look easy, because you've
been doing it for so long,
Allyson Raines (31:33):
It's a choice.
we can choose to engage and bebrought down by all the
negativity, or in my case, youcan choose to roll up your
sleeves, believe it can bedifferent, and work towards that
change.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (31:46):
Well, you've given us a lot to think
about and hopefully we canadjust our outlooks.
Sarah, we've got work.
In the meantime, we wanna thankour guests, David Sylvester and
Allyson Raines.
To learn more about them and thework they do, you can check out
their full bios on our website,thinkNovl.com and before we go,
(32:09):
if this conversation has piquedyour interest and you wanna hear
more about what we have to say,stay tuned for other episodes.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts, please rate andreview us.
Give us some love.
Sarah Patrick (32:23):
And if you're curious about what we do over at
NOVL or think we could behelpful, check us out and send
us an inquiry over atthinknovl.com.
That's T H I N K N O V L.com.
That's it for us.
Shout out to everyone who helpedus make this show.
This is NOVL Takes.
Hey there, beautiful listeners.
I'm Rachel Gans-Boriskin, one ofthe hosts of NOVL Takes.
I wanted to give you a quickheads up.
Starting this week, Sarah and Iare going to be changing up our
format, bringing new voices andinsights into our conversations.
While we are really excitedabout this week's episode, we
(00:28):
want to let you know that ourguests had a little technical
difficulty and at times, thesound is a bit glitchy.
We apologize and hope you enjoytheir insights, nonetheless.
Okay, let's get back to ourregularly scheduled podcast.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (00:46):
Hey, there beautiful people.
Welcome to NOVL Takes, thepodcast where we lift the veil
on business as usual.
Join us for our novel takes onbusiness, culture, and the art
of getting things done.
I'm partner and principal RachelGans-Boriskin.
Sarah Patrick (01:01):
and I'm founder and principal Sarah Patrick.
It's time for a new novel take.
You've heard it before.
The optimist sees the glass halffull and the pessimist sees the
glass half empty.
So today we're filling ourglasses to somewhere in the
middle and figuring out how totalk about it.
Or to put it another way, we'regoing to talk about optimism in
the workspace and beyond, andwhat kind of roles optimism
(01:23):
plays, and how we maintain it inchallenging environments.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (01:26):
Something that caught my attention
recently was a series ofarticles about the importance of
hope.
People need to feel hopeful inorder to accomplish their goals,
and of course, this makes sense.
If you think something can't bedone, why bother trying it at
all?
But the articles seem to besuggesting something deeper.
An optimistic disposition or atleast outlook, and it occurred
(01:50):
to me that I'm not really greatat optimism.
It's certainly not my defaultand while I think you, Sarah,
have many strengths, I'm notsure optimism is high on your
list either.
So it seemed to me we needed totrack down some truly optimistic
folks to get their view on thesubject, and hopefully they can
(02:11):
help us see the fullness of ourown glasses as well.
Sarah Patrick (02:15):
We're joined today by David Sylvester and
Allyson Raines.
David and Allyson, will you letthe people know who you are?
Allyson Raines (02:21):
My name is Allyson Raines.
I'm the chief of staff andoperations at the National
Democratic Training Committee.
David Sylvester (02:28):
My name's David Hale Sylvester and I'm'basically
a professional hugger.
Go around the world, hugging andhigh fiving people and I've been
to 42 countries and all 50states and hugged well over half
a million people in the last 22years.
Sarah Patrick (02:43):
Thank you both for being here.
We are so excited to have you onthe podcast.
We're gonna dive right in.
One definition I read in a fastcompany article recently
suggested that an optimist, issomeone who believes that
tomorrow can be better thantoday and takes an active role
in making it so.
So, I'm curious out the gate,what does optimism look like to
(03:04):
you, or what does it mean to bean optimist?
David Sylvester (03:07):
I believe that optimism is just believing that
you have a chance.
Just a chance.
I think as long as I have achance to do well, to achieve,
to win that's it.
I've lived on maybe andpossibly, and potentially my
whole life., And that's it.
And can do a lot with that.
Allyson Raines (03:26):
I'd agree fully, David.
You know, I do social justiceand social change work.
That requires optimism.
It requires a belief that if youdo things, if you engage and
activate enough people, you cancause systemic change in
whatever system you're workingin.
So I think for me, optimism isinherent in all that I do.
(03:46):
And you can't not be an optimistin politics.
You have to believe that changeis real, that change is
attainable, and that you justneed to figure out the path and
the direction towards the changeyou wanna see.
Sarah Patrick (03:58):
Allyson, you're speaking to the role that it
plays in your work, right?
I wonder if you can say moreabout that.
Allyson Raines (04:05):
Yeah, at the National Democratic Training
Committee, in all politicalwork, we are trying to make
change.
And that change spectrum reallyranges across all social justice
work.
There are folks who do directservice to create change,
believe in the optimism ofsupporting each other as just
human beings and meeting ourneeds all the way down to folks
who wanna work completelyoutside of the system to tear it
(04:28):
down and build a new one, andare optimistic and believe that
that is true and possible.
I am also somewhere in themiddle.
I'm a work within the systemgal.
I think democracy is freakingcool and I wanna work within
that system to motivate thatsystem towards its best version
of itself, where we are allactually engaging in shaping the
(04:49):
way that our culture and ourcountry operate.
So for me in my work, it's allday every day.
Now it comes down to like asmaller strategy piece of what I
do in my current role aroundtraining people and motivating
them to run for office and workon campaigns.
But I think that same throughline of all of this is the
(05:10):
belief that something can andshould change, and that if we
find enough folks who believe inthat same change with us, that
we can actually motivate it.
So optimism is all over theplace.
Despite it being paired verydeeply with anger, it's a
contradiction in me.
I gotta be angry enough to feelthat something needs to change
and optimistic enough toactually work towards
(05:31):
accomplishing it.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (05:33):
It's interesting to hear you talk
about that, Allyson, because Ithink, David, you come from a
different place on this, that amotivation isn't necessarily
anger, and your optimism isn'tkind of within this change
framework, although I think yourwork does change people.
(05:54):
I wonder if you could talk alittle about that.
David Sylvester (05:57):
Yeah.
My my work is much moreindividual.
My thing is not about, any kindof systematic anything.
My thing is just like, Hey,listen, let's talk about you and
your day.
And what's going on and how wecan make things better and how
we can infuse some optimism andsome hope into that to change
your current situation.
(06:18):
We'll worry about everythingelse later.
Or let other people like Allysonand yourselves worry about the
systems.
You can worry about that lateron.
But right now what we're gonnado is, work on changing just the
environment in our own brains.
our outlook.
And then from there We're gonnamove forward.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (06:34):
And, what would you say your medium of
that is?
David Sylvester (06:38):
I mean, it just starts with a hug.
And it also starts with my basicstory.
I mean, it's the fact that if Ibelieve certain narratives about
travel, about anything, I wouldnot be traveling around the
world, hugging and high fivingpeople going to remote cities
Going to the smallest city inNorth Dakota, hugging the whole
(06:59):
city hugging my way outtaspeeding tickets, hugging my way
outta fights with motorcyclegangs, I would not believe that
that's possible.
So the mere fact that I existand that my story is out there
and I have pictures and all thisstuff to prove it.
Listen.
I am walking hope.
I'm walking sunshine.
You can't deny me.
Allyson Raines (07:19):
Well, David, I.
think the thing that connects ustoo is that it sounds like we
share that belief in theinfinite potential of humanity.
David Sylvester (07:28):
without question.
But, know, my thing is justlet's talk about this individual
circumstance that you're in andlet's try to figure out how to
make this better.
a lot of times when I share mystory all of a sudden people
open up to a lot of things and aa lot of stories about, abuse or
about, you know, being sick orabout whatever.
And they just, they want a rayof hope.
(07:48):
And I now have met so manypeople, I can offer a story or
an anecdote that can providethat hope just for a moment, you
know?
I mean, you know, it soundscorny, but David Bowie said, we
can be heroes just for one day.
And if we can be heroes for oneday, then we can be heroes for
another day as well..
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (08:08):
So, you know, I, I hear you talking
there about how you stayoptimistic.
Allyson, it strikes me that weare living in pretty trying
times, pretty tense politically.
I wonder how you stay personallyoptimistic in these kinds of
(08:28):
times.
Allyson Raines (08:30):
Yeah, it's actually very similar to what
David is saying.
It's all about the people thatare coming together to do the
work that my organization does.
Those are the stories thatmotivate me, and I found this
throughout my career, workingwith actual people out in
communities and hearing them andwatching them go through the
transformational experience thatis political activation.
(08:52):
Like that is what gets me going.
All I wanna do is turn people onto the power that they have to
change their lives, theircircumstances, and the power
that they have.
So it's very much about thatpersonal connection.
It's about hearing those sharedexperiences and stories,
connecting that to people'sself-interest and the moment
(09:13):
that we're in.
What keeps me going is when yousee that learner go through that
transformational aha moment.
And I can still even get thatvery internally as a manager.
I always say I have two Northstars for my career.
I wanna build things that lastwell beyond me.
I don't want it to just bedependent on my effort, and I
always wanna be in positionswhere I'm impacting other people
(09:36):
and helping to shape and coachthem to create the same impact I
feel like I can make.
I can exponentially grow if I'minvesting in others.
So even watching staff memberswho I'm coaching on that sort of
culture and strategy work that Ihave with the chief of staff hat
on, like watching them gothrough that and have those
professional growth experiences,it's really those individual
(09:58):
transformational moments thatkeep me engaged and help me keep
track of the fact that it isconstantly possible.
There is never a lack ofopportunity to transform folks
and bring them more activelyinto the systems and more
actively becoming themselves andwho they wanna be.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (10:15):
It's funny to hear you talk.
It makes me reflect on, myself.
I've had, I think two Northstars as well, and they've been
actually, my grandparents Mygrandfather was a lawyer and he
fought for civil rights and hewas somebody who actually
changed the laws of the UnitedStates.
And for me, for a long time, Ifelt like I needed to do that.
(10:39):
Like I wasn't gonna be a successunless, I could point to
something big in the world with,my name on it.
And the other was my grandmotherwho had four kids and treated
everyone she ever met withdignity and kindness and saw
everyone and that mattered somuch.
(11:00):
And I felt in my own life, Imight not be able to be my
grandfather that wasn't given,but I had so much control to be
my grandmother, to be thatperson who saw people.
And so I, I feel like listeningto the two of you, there's a
little of both of that and, andmaybe just maybe I actually have
(11:21):
more optimism in me than I knew.
So I, I wanna thank you for thatreframe.
Sarah Patrick (11:30):
I'm marinating in this.
I think the thing that's comingup for me is the opportunity of
optimism each day.
I'm really listening to thestories of personal motivation
that come alongside optimism andit sounds like each of you kind
of takes each day at a time.
And I think part of the morerealistic or pessimistic hat
(11:54):
that sometimes I wear comes withthinking well too far in
advance.
And considering, multiple seriesof events And I'm listening to
you all talk about optimism andI'm wondering if maybe it's a
function of thinking in shortersprints and not thinking
necessarily short term, butthinking about things in sprints
(12:15):
and thinking of things asopportunities when you think
about it in sprints.
That's all that I'm kind ofsitting in right now.
David Sylvester (12:21):
So you said that you, you think ahead So
that means that five years ago,10 years ago, a year ago, a
month ago that this great daythat's happening, right now when
you have your own business,where you have your own podcast,
where you're talking tooptimistic people, According to
you, this day should not havehappened.
Probably would not have happenedagainst your own projections.
you're living an optimisticpoint right now.
(12:45):
Like you're in it.
So your thought process yearsago, a week ago, whatever, in
the past.
It's just wrong.
You should be an optimist.
Sarah Patrick (12:57):
Absolutely.
It negates the possibility of myown.
Yeah.
David Sylvester (13:01):
Right.
So, I mean, you yourself andyour smile in this moment right
now is proof that there'ssomething to be optimistic
about..
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (13:11):
David, you have always been, I think, an
optimistic, irrepressiblespirit, but the origins of hugs
and high five comes from areally dark moment and I wonder
if you could talk about that alittle cuz it speaks to sort of
(13:32):
the power of, optimism.
David Sylvester (13:35):
So I've been doing this ever since my friend
got killed in the World TradeCenter September 11th, and I did
not want my friend to die onthat day in that way.
And so I wanted him to live on,and so I rode my bicycle across
the United States and no matterwhere I rode no matter who I
talked to, everybody wanted totalk about my friend or express
(13:57):
their thoughts on 9/11 No matterwhat conversation I had, it
ended in a hug and it ended in ahigh five and it ended in a
moment of hope.
And it made me think about hopeand optimism and, my friend
living on in another way.
And, when people started tellingme how I inspired them and what
they were going to do I felttethered to their good deeds One
(14:20):
person said that they were gonnawork in a community garden just
cause of what I did.
Another person said, they weregoing become a big brother.
And when people would tell methese things, I, felt tethered
to these good acts, so I wantedto do more.
So I went on to ride my bicycleacross Africa- from Cairo to
Cape Town and in Asia, fromIstanbul to Beijing, and two
more times across the UnitedStates.
(14:42):
And then my story, pivoted alittle bit, and I switched
vehicles.
I started driving across thecountry and so I have done three
48 state drives across thecountry, delivering hugs and
high fives.
Because people need that hope.
People need that.
More so than ever, people needto see not just hope, but I
think people need to seegoodness and action on an
(15:04):
individual basis.
Again, I was never a group guy.
I was never, a coalition type ofguy.
I am an individual And I thinkpeople need to see individuals
in action.
One person called me, the BlackJohnny Appleseed, you know, just
going out, just hugging and highfiving people, and I'm cool with
that.
Allyson Raines (15:23):
Well, what I love about what you said too, in
that David, besides the, 1980song call out there in your own
version but what I really loveis you started to hit on how
optimism infuses all that we do.
And yesterday someone saidsomething to me that you just
contradicted in a great way of,they said, no one likes learning
(15:43):
and growing.
It's all something we know weneed to do.
And I was like, that's just nottrue.
I like legitimately like it,like I wanna keep doing it.
I think I have more that I cando in the world.
I have more growth that I canbe.
We can all become someone thatwe all like better, And so I
think that's been a theme for mehearing our conversation is
optimism feeds so much ofdifferent things we do.
(16:05):
Sarah, you earlier were askingus about our timeline, and I'm
like, oh.
It's like optimism makes meincredibly stubborn.
I will see the problem and Iwill figure out how to fix it.
It might take me a coupleiterations.
It might take a whole lifetimeor a career.
My name won't be on anything butthat slow positive belief that
if I keep trying, if I keepgrowing, if I keep working, it
(16:28):
will happen.
So it just, it infuses all thatwe do.
You can't just be optimisticover here.
It becomes part of yourself.
Sarah Patrick (16:39):
I'm hearing both of you talk about the
relationship between optimismand action.
And Allyson, you talk about theinfusion of optimism through
everything that you do.
And I'm wondering if you see tooa relationship between optimism
and drive or optimism andindustriousness.
And you know, whether or not yousee some sort of connection
between those things.
Allyson Raines (17:00):
Yeah, I mean, definitely I have to have hope
that if I keep going, even inhard moments, that it will get
to another easier moment.
And so I feel like absolutely,but we're also talking so much
on a big global level of the waywe think and view the world.
And so I wanna just admit likethere are times I'm super
(17:20):
pessimistic.
There are times where I'm justlike pissed off and angry and
frustrated.
And there are times where itdoes feel like we're not gonna
get there or we're not gonna getthere as well as I wanted or as
fast as I wanted.
But overarching that belief thatI can get there is still always
there and it helps overcomethose sort of hiccupy moments
(17:42):
though I would love to throwthis back cuz David, you seem
like a person very much like me,who everyone always sees our
happy go lucky sides.
And the moment, bigpersonalities, big happy people
have those moments where wearen't in that way, it stands
out huge.
People pick up on it really fastand in quick ways, and I wonder
if you've had that experience.
David Sylvester (18:04):
people do pick up on it very quickly.
There was one time when I wasreally down and somebody said,
God, if you can get down, thenGod help us all.
And it really made me sort ofalmost check myself and realize
what I represent to people We'reall presenting something and I
had no idea that my positivitymeant so much to those around
(18:25):
me.
And and it didn't changeanything, but it did make me
change my posture in that momentand just stand up a little bit
straighter and just realize,okay, for those around me, I
have to project, like thismoment is not beating me down
so, much.
(18:45):
And it took a little while.
But like you said, you find away, you find a way through it
and I found a way through itbecause I've been optimistic so
many other times and I just hadto, turn the moment around.
But I think a lot of timespeople think that optimistic
people, like we never have a badday There's always bad days.
But you know, what am I gonnado?
Mope about it?
I mean, who wants to be aroundthat person?
(19:07):
Who wants to be around theperson that mopes all the damn
time?
We all have caller ID now,right?
And if someone is mopey, mopey,and it's always, oh my God, the
sky is falling or whatever, yousee that person's name on your
phone, are you gonna answer it?
No, you're not.
You're not.
Because who wants to hear thatcrap?
But the friend They haveproblems, but when they talk to
(19:28):
about their problems, there isan option, should I go this way
or that way, or whatever.
It's not a dead end, You'll takethat person's call.
You listen to that personbecause that person is always
looking for a way to moveforward.
The person that just wanna sitthere and turtle up, you don't
wanna talk to that person.
And the older you get, you'relike, man, is this person ever
(19:51):
gonna get it together?
And so like why be that person?
You know, a good friend of minewho's a, professor said, talking
to her students it's likedueling miseries Dueling
miseries That's not right.
That's not right for youngpeople to be sold a bill of
goods of what they can't do inthis world about where you can't
(20:14):
go and stuff like that.
There's so much that can happen.
There's so much to be optimisticabout, you know?
Is the world perfect?
No, not by a long shot.
You know, but we have anopportunity to make it better.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (20:27):
I hear the inspiration of it and thinking
in, work contexts, teamcontexts, how you see
particularly Allyson in yourwork, how optimism plays a role
in teams and in team building.
Allyson Raines (20:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think optimism might be one ofmy biggest strengths as a leader
and being that cheerleader.
And it doesn't mean that I'm notpragmatic and it doesn't mean
that there isn't real talk.
I have been called someone withvery high expectations and a lot
of directness and I pride myselfon that.
I think being clear is kind andI think making the implicit
(21:07):
explicit is the best, mosthopeful way of gaining the
alignment that we need to docollaborative work that is
inclusive of all of ourexperiences and mindsets.
We all know both from justactually doing and feeling good
work like that, but also theresearch.
We need some of that emotionalsecurity.
And I think to David's point,you don't get a lot of emotional
(21:29):
security when everything is adowner.
You kind of need a cheerleaderto keep the motivation up and to
keep things going and to keepfocused on the hopeful outcome
we're trying to achieve.
I often say We live in a worldfull of tension at the National
Democratic Training Committeewhere we are really trying to
build our internal organizationin the world that doesn't yet
(21:50):
exist in the world as it shouldbe.
And we have to deal with andface the realities of what is
the world we are currentlyliving in.
But we need that optimism.
We need to believe that it'spossible so that we have the
motivation to work towards itevery single day.
And we all know that variousdifferent types of people on
teams make up the strongestteams.
(22:10):
So a couple of years ago, I hadan experience where a staff
member that I worked withprobably a decade before, sent
me a note just saying, You hadfaith and you convinced me, you
gave me the optimism that Icould actually achieve the
things I wanna do, and I wannasend you an email to let you
know I just got this job and Iwould've never even saw myself
(22:34):
in a job like this if you hadn'tgiven me that optimism for the
career path I wanted when I wasan intern.
But so I think it's important ina leader, it's not always
necessary.
Leaders aren't always just thebig boisterous cheerleader.
We all have our place to bedifferent kinds of leaders, but
I do think if a leader is apessimist, it brings everything
(22:55):
down.
It ruins motivation.
It ruins productivity.
Sarah, you said industriousness,and I'm like, whoa.
That's really sticking with meof like, how much does my
optimism motivate that continuedaction and continued plugging
away at the change that I wannasee.
So I think it's incrediblyimportant in team-based settings
(23:16):
and we all have a place inteams.
I recently read something whereit was like, pessimists are
kinda great to have on yourteam.
They're gonna highlight everypotential risk and problem.
So it's not to say that we allneed optimism.
We need a little bit of it all,We need all kinds of folks, but
at the end of the day, I'm like,Ooh, as a leader, optimism is
(23:38):
key.
David Sylvester (23:39):
I always talk to the haters.
there's people that hate all mystuff and hate on the hugs and
high fives And so whenever Ihave a trip that I'm planning or
a project I tell my haters., Imean, I tell'em first because
they point out the holes first,first and foremost and loudest.
And you know, my thing is thatif I have very clear, concise
(24:00):
answers for all of the hatersout there, then I know it's good
for everybody else.
So, I need the haters in mylife.
Love'em.
Love'em..
when this started off 22 yearsago, I didn't have to look for
haters, they were alleverywhere.
But as I've gone on, the numberof haters has just really,
Dwindled.
Now I only have two haters left.
Hey Sarah.
Hey Rachel.
Sarah Patrick (24:22):
That's not fair.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (24:23):
Not fair.
Not cool.
Allyson Raines (24:25):
and I do wanna say like, I think one of the I
think this is gonna go with oursilliness in this moment too.
I think one of the best things Iever read about being an
optimist is optimists are alwayslate.
We always think we can get somuch more done in the short
period of time that we have, andwe believe it can happen.
So we're always two minuteslate.
(24:47):
So you definitely need optimistson your team, but you need other
folks too.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (24:51):
The pessimists are the ones who set
your watch five minutes fast sothat you arrive three minutes
early despite yourselves.
You know, I think that there issomething beautiful here too
about the tension betweensystems and individuals, between
short term and long term, andthat it's in the union of these,
(25:16):
in the tension that we havehope.
you know David, you bring hopeto people in their darkest
moments.
You've gone to these locationsof mass shootings and hugged
people in their darkest momentsand it is actually that
juxtaposition of love in themoment of hate that is so
(25:41):
powerful.
The very fact that there isoptimism when things are dark,
is itself, I think so moving forpeople.
David Sylvester (25:49):
when I go to these places, more so than
anything those people need hope.
And what I let them know is thatmy story was born of tragedy too
and you wi ll love again.
You will smile again.
You will trust humanity again.
And what better way to repairthat bond, that rip in the
fabric, that shooting or act ofmass mayhem has created than,
(26:12):
than hugging a stranger.
Because really at that point,you know what act is more
loving, more intimate, morecommunicative to anybody that's
even just viewing us from theoutside.
Just a hug, just a, you know,and, and that's it.
People need, need hope.
I think that acts of legislationtakes so much time and seems so
(26:34):
far away and takes governmentsand protests and a lot of stuff
to happen, but instilling hopecan happen right away
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (26:42):
one other thing I was thinking about and
I've mentioned it on the podcastbefore, is a gratitude practice
I started about a year and ahalf ago where, every day I
write a page a single page ofwhat I'm grateful for.
And, people who meet me now willsay, well, I'm not a grateful
person I just couldn't do that.
And I say, well, I didn't starta gratitude practice because I
(27:04):
was grateful.
I started the gratitude practicebecause I was angry all the
time, and it's a practice,right?
It's a gratitude muscle that youhave to exercise.
in the beginning it took so muchto come up with anything to put
on that page.
And then, because I didn't wannadeal with that at night, I'd be
(27:25):
going through my day going, oh,well that's a beautiful, flower.
I could be grateful for that,or, that's a beautiful sunset.
And I'll be grateful for that.
And eventually being like, I'mso lucky to live in a place
where when I drive over thishill I see this beautiful view
every time.
And that it was the practicethat has made me more grateful
(27:47):
and able to see those things.
So what tips do you have forpeople to exercise their
optimism, their hope muscles?
David Sylvester (27:59):
I'll say this, that I have gone to a lot of
hospices to go hug people I'vemet a lot of people who were
essentially on their deathbed,and none of them, none of them
ever said, I wish I had boughtthat Mercedes when I was 20, or,
I wish I, had more money Whatpeople talk about in their dying
days are just, moments, momentsof happiness.
(28:22):
I was at a hospice in New Mexicorecently, and the woman was just
talking about the smell of freshcut grass.
the, the power of a smile, therandom winks that she got in her
lifetime, just, just the simplepleasures of life.
And we were sitting down whileshe was eating and she just
said, you know, another thingthat I really like, just, just
people spending time with me.
(28:43):
And I asked her what a hug meantto her and she said, it means
somebody loves me.
And that's all anybody wants.
All anybody that's on theirdeathbed wants one more day, one
more day to see their lovedones, to see the sunshine, to
feel its warmth, you know, to,to have a chance at basking in
love.
(29:03):
We all want the same things inlife, Hey, listen man, this
moment is beautiful.
this very moment, is justawesome.
Looking at the plants behindyou, Rachel is great.
Looking at your face there,Sarah, it's great.
Looking at your smile, Allysonis great.
Like that's, I'm grateful forthat.
That's, yeah, what I got tocomplain about, I'm hanging out
with three beautiful women.
That's awesome.
(29:24):
And so it is, I think, it is thesimple things, it is the simple
things in life.
Allyson Raines (29:31):
David, I don't think we could have been a
better pair for this cuz wereached the same conclusions in
wildly different ways I am verylogical.
I'm very pragmatic.
I live in the gray You don'thave to be purely optimistic or
purely pessimistic.
You can have faith in yourself.
You can believe in what you arecapable of and cultivate that,
(29:51):
like you said Rachel, around apractice of these things.
So for me, a lot of it is, hasreally been born of convincing
myself I can do it and been bornfrom the confidence that I wanna
cultivate to make the changethat I wanna see.
But not only is that same sortof like lovey dovey, I believe
(30:13):
in it all right now and righthere that David is sharing.
And we need both kinds ofpeople.
So if it's something that thatfolks who are listening don't
feel comes natural to them.
Like David and I are sharing, itdoes come somewhat naturally to
us.
I've definitely had to pair thatwith some logic and some
reflection and some belief inmyself that, no, I'm optimistic
(30:34):
because I believe in me.
I know I can work hard.
I know I can do these things,and that wasn't something that
that was born overnight.
I had to cultivate thatconfidence and that belief in
myself.
And so I think it's totally okayto live in the gray.
To, to live in that tension of,it's not all roses and sunshine
always, but I need to believethat the roses and sunshine are
(30:55):
possible.
So I think that that's reallyhow I've tried to cultivate it
and the tips that I couldprovide is, it's okay to say
it's not possible right now, butI think it is possible in
general and what's my pathway toget there?
the path may not be clear rightaway, and that's okay.
It's okay to say I might befailing in this moment, but I
know that this failure will getme closer to the actual
(31:17):
solution.
I think it's that tension that Iembrace that helps actually
cultivate optimism right
David Sylvester (31:23):
I think you do have to cultivate things.
Like this is work.
This is work that Allyson and Imake look easy, because you've
been doing it for so long,
Allyson Raines (31:33):
It's a choice.
we can choose to engage and bebrought down by all the
negativity, or in my case, youcan choose to roll up your
sleeves, believe it can bedifferent, and work towards that
change.
Rachel Gans-Boriskin (31:46):
Well, you've given us a lot to think
about and hopefully we canadjust our outlooks.
Sarah, we've got work.
In the meantime, we wanna thankour guests, David Sylvester and
Allyson Raines.
To learn more about them and thework they do, you can check out
their full bios on our website,thinkNovl.com and before we go,
(32:09):
if this conversation has piquedyour interest and you wanna hear
more about what we have to say,stay tuned for other episodes.
If you're listening on ApplePodcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts, please rate andreview us.
Give us some love.
Sarah Patrick (32:23):
And if you're curious about what we do over at
NOVL or think we could behelpful, check us out and send
us an inquiry over atthinknovl.com.
That's T H I N K N O V L.com.
That's it for us.
Shout out to everyone who helpedus make this show.
This is NOVL Takes.
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