Gambling on Satire: Actor-Writer Harry Shearer

The former child actor who once worked with Jack Benny, and who later became the voice of many of the most popular characters on The Simpsons, also proved to wield a potent sword of satire.

In this 2006 interview Harry Shearer talks about his debut novel Not Enough Indians.
Get your copy of Not Enough Indians by Harry ShearerAs an Amazon Associate, Now I've Heard Everything earns from qualifying purchases.

You may also enjoy my interviews with Garrison Keillor and Tony Henrdra

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#ficttion #humor #Native Americans #satire

characters. I'm not a a big believer in
heroes. I I think we're living in a time
that kind of proves me. Right.
Actor, writer. Harry Shearer.
Today. Now, I've heard everything.

(00:25):
Well, many people don't know that.
The man who provides the voices for many of the most popular
characters on The Simpsons was once a child actor who actually
worked with Abbott and Costello and Jack Benny.
Harry Shearer was on television and in the movies in the 1950s.
Now, of course, in the last 36 years or so, he's best known to

(00:48):
most people as the voices of many characters on The Simpsons.
He's the voice of Ned Flanders and Principal Skinner and Mr.
Burns and Mr. Smithers. So as he got along, time to
Polish his skills as an actor and as a writer.
But it took him until 2006 to write his first book of fiction.

(01:09):
It was a satirical novel called Not Enough Indians.
Now, the basic premise of the story essentially is there's a
small dying town that decides totry to become an Indian tribe so
they can land a casino. What could possibly go wrong?
Well, Harry and I met one afternoon in the fall of 2006 at
a popular Washington, DC hotel while he was on the book tour to

(01:30):
talk about the book In just a moment, Our conversation.
Remember, we were all younger once.
Here's an interview from years ago, when national radio
personality Bill Thompson still had hair.
Enjoy. So here now from 2006, Harry
Shearer. Now this is not your first book,

(01:53):
but it is your first novel, is that right?
That's correct. I've had two non fiction books,
1A collection of columns and 1A book length essay on why people
hated Clinton called It's the stupidity stupid.
Well. People who will read Not enough
Indians, they're going to say, my gosh, what took you so long
with fiction? I hope they do.

(02:13):
I I remember in my 20s thinking,well, if I think I'm a writer I
should be writing a novel of some sort.
But I have nothing to say, and Idon't know enough.
This clearly was in the days before people made a lot of
money writing novels, not knowing enough and having
nothing to say. So I waited until I had an idea
that amused me, and then I realized, with the help of a

(02:35):
friend, that this was an idea that was never going to become a
movie, so I might as well write it as a book.
And there I was. My bluff had been called.
Well, give us a thumbnail sketchwhere the plot takes us.
Well, it's it starts with a tad the folks the leading the
leading edge of a town in upstate New York that has gone
so on the skids. When the national chains moved

(02:57):
out, the people who took over the stores didn't have the money
to change the signs completely. So Starbucks is now Orlox and
Rite Aid is now it Aid. And eventually they come to the
conclusion the only way to save the town is to take advantage of
a slight legal quirk and get themselves recognized as an
Indian tribe so they can open a casino.

(03:19):
And so this takes them on a journey that ends up taking the
reader to Washington and to Vegas and to another large
Indian casino in the Northeast. And it just sort of keeps going
around those those areas until the entire thing until hilarity
ensues as they I believe the cliche is.
Was there any purpose to the time period in which you set the

(03:41):
story? Yeah, I was very precisely
chosen because I, I was concerned all the way through.
I I'm always concerned as a writer that I, I, I'm not a fan
assist. So I, I, even if I do a story
that seems a little bit far fetched as this one might, I

(04:02):
want the knowledgeable reader tosay to him, him or herself, you
know, that could have happened. And that was the period of time
when this could have happened. There is such a now in the mid
middle of the first decade of the 21st century, there's a
beginnings of a serious backlashagainst Indian casinos.

(04:22):
So they wouldn't have had the kind of easy ride that this did
have or would have had in the mid and late 90s.
So that's exactly why I put it there.
And in the 60s it wouldn't have been an issue.
In the 60's the legal court didn't exist.
You know, I think it was the Mashantucket Pequats that who
started Foxwoods that really explored, blew this legal door

(04:44):
wide open. But we're talking about a town
that even Walmart won't have. That's correct.
There's a scene early in the in the book in which the mayor
calls up Walmart begging for a for a store and the executive at
Walmart is a little non plus that they blatantness and
baldness of the of the proposal.But he just says, you know, or
he doesn't say it. The narrator says that begging a

(05:06):
small town begging to have a Walmart holds no more water with
them than a small town begging them not to open nearby.
You know, so doesn't make any difference to them.
They look at their database and make their decision.
So you declare yourself an Indian Reservation, You open a
casino. What could go wrong?
What could possibly go wrong except that there's another

(05:27):
Indian casino, a huge one nearbythat doesn't particularly cotton
to the idea of of opposition. And also neighboring towns now
find themselves clogged with traffic from people coming in.
It's, you know, the the law of unintended consequences is in
full force. And it's my favorite law, by the
way. One which we obey assiduously.

(05:48):
Is there anybody in this book that you don't lampoon in one
way or another? I hope not.
I'm a comic writer. I tend to view folks as comic
characters. I'm not a big believer in heroes
and I I think we're living in a time that kind of proves me
right. But.
How do you? Top the Daily.

(06:10):
Newspaper. With its silliness, you don't
try to top it, you just try to distill it.
You know, you just try to make take out the pauses and the doll
parts. That's my that's my strategy.
I think nothing is is funnier orsillier than actual human
behavior. That's why I say I'm not a
fantasist. I don't think you can do better
than the real human animal in terms of coming up with great
comedy, but I just try to be an observer and a distiller and

(06:36):
hope for the distillers Usual result?
Comic intoxication. Now, structurally, with your
background in television, in thevisual arts, do you see a story
like this before you? As I'm writing it, do I see
scenes I I'm thinking about the answer to that.

(06:58):
That's the sound of thinking. I think at times I did, you
know, again, I'm, I didn't imagine a lot of this.
I, I didn't make up a lot. I don't have a vivid
imagination. I, I hope I'm a good observer,
good observer of comic detail. So a lot of this either was

(07:18):
stuff that I had already known, you know, details of legislative
life because I worked at the state legislature in California.
Yeah, or I did. I did visit some casinos to to,
you know, scope up some local colours, they say.
So yeah, I mean, I tried to havea visual sense of stuff, but

(07:39):
clearly it's from having observed it, not from having
imagined it. You don't have any friends like
loose slots? I do not have any friends like
Tony loose slots Salata. He's one of the few characters
that I did kind of make up, although there is a model for
him in real life. But if I say his name, he might
sue me and he should live so long.

(08:02):
But no, I, I, I don't have any friends with that quite that
degree, quite that combination of big money and small taste.
After this short break, Harry Shearer explains a key
ingredient in creating a comediccharacter.

(08:24):
You know, AI is not just for 22 year old coders.
A lot of us older adults are drawing on our life experience
to find unique and creative waysto use AI at home or at work.
Got an AI success story you'd like to share?
Tap the link below to visit our YouTube channel, AI After 40 and

(08:44):
Let's keep learning together. Now back to my 2006 conversation
with Harry Shearer. To me that the astounding thing
about a story like this and whatmakes it so much fun to read is
that you have taken us right to the edge, but you haven't gone
over the edge to the point whereI slammed the bookshop and I

(09:05):
said, oh, come on, This is just so unbelievable.
I can't. I can't handle.
This. Well, yeah, that's exactly what
I want. What I wanted was you to say
that I dreamed of this day. No, I mean, I, I, I, I don't
want to go over that edge because as a reader, I don't go
there. As a, as a viewer, I stop at
that point. So as a writer or creator, I'm
going to stop at that point too.It's very easy to get into the

(09:27):
silly, and you have not gotten into the silly with this book.
Well, again, I, I try to, I, I guess it's my background, my
first writing and my writing fora long time was in journalism.
And so I'm, you know, and I, I wrestled for a while with the
narrative voice of this and early on in the book, it's silly

(09:51):
to say early on about a book that's that short, but it's
true. I think I subtly shifted
narrative voice depending on which characters I was, were in
the lead for that particular chapter.
But I think all the way through overall, the narrative voice is
sort of a, a, not a journalisticvoice, but, you know, trying to

(10:13):
describe what's going on as if this is really happening.
And, you know, I really tried to, my first draft was just
trying to tell the story to myself.
I, I had no idea I was going to end or where I was going to go.
I just started. And so I was telling the story
in a way that I could make myself believe, yeah, this, this

(10:35):
could have happened. So that was the focus
throughout. And then, you know, hopefully
the funny followed. Well, one of your blurbers, and
I can't remember which one of them said that these people
really aren't very likable, but we, but we sympathize with them.
We feel sorry for them all the same because they're just like
us. No way.
But they are us, he said. Yeah.
I mean, I think that's, I was trying to describe at one point

(10:59):
a screenplay to a, that I wantedto make into a movie to a, a, a
fairly famous Hollywood liberal executive and who had been a fan
of my radio show and, and had heard a sketch that I'd done.
I did this series of sketches where Nixon has somehow wangled
his way into heaven, but he's still taping.

(11:19):
And so I have these tapes of Nixon from heaven, Nixon in
heaven. So anyway, I described this
whole screenplay idea to this executive and he says, well,
are, are are we going to like any of these characters?
And I said, let me ask you a question.
When you heard that sketch last Sunday, did you hate Nixon?
He said no. I said, well, if I can make you
like. And it's not that I was making

(11:41):
him like Nixon. I was writing, you know, I mean,
the whole audacity of the idea that Nixon wangled his way into
heaven and his taping is not what you'd call likable as a
character trait. But I think I learned from
working for Jack Benny as a child.
I was the child that there's a certain humanity that all comic

(12:04):
characters share, and you can write them as tough as you like,
as long as you don't write them as monsters.
As long as you remember they're still us.
They still have our flaws and our temptations and our lapses.
That is a fine line you walk though, isn't it?
To to lampoon someone but still make us identify with them and

(12:25):
actually like them, even if we don't want to.
Well, I don't think so. I think the great comedians, you
know, that's what I aspire to have always done.
Benny's character was totally unlikable.
Bilko's character was totally unlikable.
Ralph Kramden's character was totally unlikable, except for
the end when he said maybe you're the greatest.
He had one second of likability in each show.

(12:47):
But what made them eminently lovable was how funny they were
and how human they were, and howyou recognized yourself even in
the worst of their behaviour, because it was funny and real.
Well, in the words you haven't mentioned yet is vulnerability.
They were all, they all had flaws, Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's what's comic about them.

(13:07):
And that's what I I don't like about most television comedy is
the people don't have comic flaws.
They just tell jokes to each other because network research
tells them that the characters have to be likable.
Oh oh, bad decision. So is there no hope that this
could ever be a movie? Oh, I didn't say that.
I think if enough people buy thebook, you never know.

(13:30):
Has it been up and long enough for you to get an early reaction
to it? It's been out a couple weeks.
I've I don't think it's had a lot of reviews yet.
I've run into people who've readit and liked it.
I don't read reviews so I just have to hear tell as they say.
But yeah, I'm I think so far so good as the guy says on his fall

(13:53):
off a 20 story building do. You have another novel in you.
I don't know. I, I, I've just been in the last
couple months thinking about another idea that interests me.
I know it's interesting. I, I, I'm still trying to figure
out what might be funny about itand I sort of have to get there
first. I mean, I've I've been thinking

(14:14):
about characters who would populate it and the the area
that it covers, which is big. But as I say, I'm I'm trying to
figure out the the funny way in well.
You're not going to put that on hold for the O 8 presidential
campaign because you're a columnist on the Huffington Post
as well. I'm a I'm a specifically a media

(14:35):
columnist for them. I'm I'm a friend of Ariana's.
I'm not necessarily cut from thesame political cloth as most of
the people who write for them, although casual readers tend to
assume that without reading me carefully.
But no, I mean I I write basically when an idea grips me,

(14:56):
I the. The main next project right now
is a musical that I have writtenwith a a partner called J Edgar
exclamation point about the lifeand love life of J Edgar Hoover.
It is a love story and we'll. See if you can do for him what
you did for Richard Nixon. We're going to try real hard.
By the way, one quick after noteto this interview, I really wish

(15:20):
sometimes that I just just keep my recorder going after the
interview, but I turned it off this time as I do at the end of
the interview. So I missed the part where as we
were getting up, then I was heading to the door, he was
heading back to the elevator to go up to his room and he just
turned me in the perfect Mr. Burns voice and said excellent.

(15:41):
Oh, I wish I had that on tape. Anyway, you can get your copy of
Not Enough Indians by Harry Shearer by tapping the link in
our show notes by clicking the link in the description below.
If you're watching this on YouTube or by going to our
website heardeverything.com, we may earn an Amazon Commission if
you make a purchase. Heardeverything.com is where you
can also hear my 2003 interview with another master of satire,

(16:02):
Tony Hendra. It seems to me inconceivable
that Christ, who obviously was agreat preacher, did not crack
the odd joke from time to time. I mean, all great public
speakers know how to do that, you know?
I mean, I've often thought that somewhere buried in the Gospel
there might be someone liners. And my 2003 interview with a guy
who knows a little bit about small towns.
Garrison Keillor in. Minnesota, you're not quite

(16:23):
allowed to enjoy your success. We are a culture of modest
people and and we we would actually prefer that you come in
second or third and. Of course, we post new episodes
of Now I've Heard Everything every Monday, Wednesday and
Friday, and you can find us everywhere you find podcasts.
Thank you so much for listening.Next time on Now I've Heard

(16:45):
Everything. Do you remember back in 2008
when on the campaign trail, Sarah Palin said this about
Barack Obama to? Pal around with terrorists.
Yeah, she was talking about the guy that you'll hear from next
time. And now I've heard everything my
2013 interview with. Bill Ayers, when it comes to the
First Amendment, I'm a fundamentalist, when it comes to

(17:06):
prisons, I'm an abolitionist, when it comes to economics, I'm
a socialist. And when it comes to government,
I'm I'm an anarchist. So you know, I'm many things and
more than that. That's next time.
Now I've heard everything. I'm Gil Thompson.