Was She An Abu Ghraib Scapegoat? Former Army Gen. Janis Karpinski

Army Brigadier General Janis Karpinski was in charge of the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq at the time that photos were leaked showing prisoners being abused.

In this 2005 interview Karpinski explains why she feels she was held up as a scapegoat
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#Iraq # Abu Ghraib # Army # interrogation

The pictures were seen around the world and there was only one
person's name associated with them and it was mine.
Former Army Brigadier General Janice Karpinski today and now
I've heard everything. I'm some 20 years ago.

(00:26):
The nation and the world were shocked when some photos emerged
from the US run prison in Abu Ghraib, Iraq.
Those photos showed Iraqi prisoners being subjected to
what was called enhanced interrogation, what many people
called torture. Now, once those photos were made
public, there was an immediate outcry from leaders around the

(00:47):
world demanding that somebody beheld accountable.
Now the Army Reserve officer, the Brigadier General who was in
charge of Abu Ghraib as well as other prisons in the region, was
a career officer named Janice Karpinski.
Scapegoat. Well, in 2005, Karpinski wrote a

(01:10):
book called One Woman's Army in which she told the story from
her point of view, and she offered an account that
essentially painted her as the scapegoat, as the Pentagon and
the administration look for someone to blame.
Now I have a chance to speak with her just a few months, just
six months or so after PresidentGeorge W Bush demoted her from

(01:32):
general to Colonel for her role in the scandal.
In just a moment, our conversation.
No, Sherman, this isn't the Wayback Machine, but it is a
look back at an interview from the 30 year archive of national
radio personality Bill Thompson.Enjoy.

(01:53):
So here now from 2005, Janice Karpinski.
I I wrote the book because I I knew that the attempts were made
associating my name exclusively with the photographs that came
out in April of 2004. They wanted to destroy my
credibility. So anything I said from that

(02:13):
point forward would be questionable.
And I felt that I had to restoreit.
And I had a military career to prove my credibility, and I knew
it. And I also knew that I was being
blamed for things that were completely out of my control.
We in the media sometimes take somebody in the spotlight.
We pretend as though their life began that day and you've

(02:33):
actually got a long and illustrious and decorated
career. Well, I thought so, and
certainly a a different page started the day they released
those photographs in 2004. But I really felt like I was,
you know, at that point, the first disappointment was here I

(02:54):
am. I'm following the rules.
I was told in January of 2004 not to discuss it with anyone.
I was told not to discuss the ongoing Taguba investigation
with anyone. And, and was told by General
Mckiernan. And when I left Kuwait, you
know, there's a great future forJanice Karpinsky and the Army

(03:15):
Reserves. I believed all of them.
So here I am, keeping quiet about the details and the
photographs and everything else,and then three days after I get
back to the United States, they're released.
The pictures of Sergeant Graynerand Frederick's and Lindy
England were seen around the world and there was only one
person's name associated with them and it was mine.

(03:35):
You were scapegoated. I believe so, yes.
And your book is it. It will be unfair to try to sum
up in 15 minutes, which you didn't take in an entire book to
say, but essentially the scapegoating resulted because
you were a woman and because youare a reservist.
Correct. They they decided that that
would be the easiest person to exploit.
They being General Sanchez, the Pentagon, the people do it, that

(03:58):
had more knowledge of the photographs long before I saw
them on the 23rd of January of 2004.
Everything was already in motionactually, by the time you
actually saw the pictures, wasn't it?
That's correct. And then it was kept very quiet
for an additional four months until the pictures were released
accidentally to 60 minutes. Accidentally.

(04:19):
That's what they were saying at the time.
The people of the Pentagon claimed that they had no
knowledge of those photographs before they saw them when the
rest of the world did. Now the question has been raised
by many people, I guess on your book tour, in audiences, by
other media. If there were people inside who
had pictures and all this was going on, why didn't you know
what was going? On well, the the cell blocks

(04:40):
where these pictures were actually taken were under the
control of the military intelligence commander from
September of 2003. And in fact in November of 2003
when according to some sworn statements, General Fast, who
was the intelligence officer forGeneral Sanchez, she actually
saw the photographs for the first time being used as a

(05:02):
screensaver on some of the interrogators laptop computers.
So they they knew long before I did.
But shortly after that discovery, the prison,
coincidentally or conveniently Idon't know, was transferred to
the complete control of the Military Intelligence Brigade.
Now, by then you were. You were not actually at the

(05:25):
prison itself. I mean, you were headquartered
elsewhere. Were you?
That's correct. And I had 17 prison facilities
under my control. Abu Ghraib was one of them,
certainly the most notorious. And it was the only place where
interrogations were happening. Was it not?
That's correct. And only in cellblock 1A and B
were we holding higher value prisoners.
And that determination was made by the military intelligence
interrogators, not by military police personnel, but by the

(05:48):
interrogators. They would turn the higher value
detainee over to the military police people.
They would put them in the cell and they would make sure they
got medical attention, got sleep, got showers, got food as
appropriate and and they kept calm in in prison operations.
That's what you're hoping to achieve.

(06:10):
When a prisoner was scheduled for some kind of interview or
interrogation, the military police people would take the
detainee out of the cell, turn them over by signature to the
interrogator or the interrogation team.
They would take the prisoner to the interrogation facility and
then the process would be reversed when they were
returning them after interrogation.

(06:31):
Was it always real clear who wasdoing the interrogating?
Well, early on it was very clearbecause it was exclusively
military personnel and the teamsoften had a contract translator
assigned to them for the Arabic language skills.
But after September of 2003, following the visit of General
Miller, who was the commander from Guantanamo Bay, it was not

(06:54):
ever clear who these people weresigning for prisoners to go to
interrogation facilities and contract interrogators,
according to again, sworn statements that have since then
been released. The interrogators were giving
the instructions, giving the directions and giving the
instructions to the military personnel to do specific things

(07:18):
to set up these photographs. It was gitmoized at that point.
Yes. And if you recall, when General
Miller, the commander from Guantanamo Bay, when he
testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee, one of
the senators said, specifically,General, can you tell me what
you meant by the term Gitmo eyeswhen you used it in your

(07:40):
briefing when you first arrived in Iraq?
And he said, Senator, I have never used such an expression,
but I can tell you he can deny he used the expression.
He's the one who used that word for the first time when I heard
it in that briefing. He can deny he ever used such an
expression, but it is in fact what he did at Abu Ghraib.

(08:01):
He brought his techniques from Guantanamo Bay and imported them
to Iraq for use specifically in interrogations at Abu Ghraib
now. There are a fair number of
Americans who might say privately, if not publicly, I'm
OK with this. These are bad people.
I want to protect our country from future attack if.

(08:23):
You got to do something. I don't want to see it.
I don't want to know about it, but if you got to do it, go
ahead and do it. Well, unfortunately in, in my
opinion, you're right, people docall in, they do send e-mail,
they do respond and they say, look, general, you're pretty
naive. We, we have to get down on the
same level as these people. These are bad guys.
And I disagree. People who have far more

(08:44):
experience, whether it's hostagenegotiation, interviews,
interrogations, and police and intelligence work, people who
have years of experience say torture and abuse are not
effective tools. If you want information, if you
want to torture and abuse prisoners, you can find very
effective ways to do so. But if you're trying to get

(09:05):
information, torture and abuse does not work.
It's not an effective tool to get information.
Of course, it's never as clear cut in real life as it is in the
action movies where if they can only get the location of that
secret safe deposit box out of the prisoner, then they will be
able to save Tulsa from from a nuclear explosion.
It's never quite that clear cut I guess.
It's no. But I think people have seen the

(09:26):
movies and and they've seen the DVD's and they say, well, if it
works in the movies, we must have similar technology.
No, we don't. And and if people want to, you
know, discuss the so-called ticking bomb scenario or that
critical piece of information, where is that child that you
kidnapped? And I'm sure we have medical
technology, true serum sodium pentathol or similar technology

(09:51):
that is far less painful than torture and abuse.
I don't advocate that either. But if you want to response
immediately to the ticking bomb scenario, that's certainly more
effective because you will get reliable information from the
person when they're under some kind of a medical device.
See, that question seems to be fading fade into the background
whenever you start talking aboutthe torture prisoners.

(10:12):
I mean, I've read about Americans who have been tortured
elsewhere, and they say you pretty much say whatever they
want to hear if you're being tortured.
It doesn't matter if it's the truth or not.
You just tell them what they want to hear.
Make the torture stop. And, and you know it in many
ways, the Military Intelligence Brigade commander was actually
being subjected to a kind of torture as well.

(10:36):
The commander of the CJTF 7, theheadquarters there, General
Sanchez, Lieutenant General Sanchez was repeatedly pointing
his finger and using his thumb on on the colonel's chest and
telling him he wanted Saddam, get him Saddam.
He wanted the intelligence to point to Saddam.

(10:57):
So when you're pounding on somebody, realistically they're
going to do exactly what you said.
They're going to tell you or give you whatever it is you're
demanding from them. After this short break, Janice
Karpinski talks about the high hopes she had for the Army when
she started. You know, AI is not just for 22

(11:18):
year old coders. A lot of us older adults are
drawing on our life experience to find unique and creative ways
to use AI at home or at work. Got an AI success story you'd
like to share? Tap the link below to visit our
YouTube channel, AI After 40 andLet's keep learning together.

(11:42):
Now back to my 2005 conversationwith Janice Karpinski.
We've gotten ahead of the story because so much of your book
really is not about Iraq, not about Abu Ghraib.
It's about you and your career. Again, this is the military is
something you looked forward to being a part of.
Absolutely, and enjoyed being a part of and took the tough
assignments very often. As a female, honestly, you know,

(12:05):
I was assigned the assignment nobody else wanted because I was
a female. And you know, we'll give it to a
female who may or may not succeed, but always found a way
to succeed. Did very well in command
assignments. Had a lot of respect, tremendous
respect for Soldiers and officers who served with me,
mentors who took the time to show me the better way to do

(12:27):
things and did well because I worked very hard and enjoyed
what I was doing. You distinguish.
Yourself in the first Gulf War? Well.
I, you know, those accomplishments go largely,
largely unnoticed at this point because they wanted to do that.
I have to say that, you know, this is not about discrimination
first. This is about using people to be

(12:50):
the scapegoats, to be the fall guys, to be the fall gals in a
situation that other people werefar more knowledgeable of long
before we became aware through the pictures.
And, and you know, is it a conspiracy in this particular
situation? It looks like it was.
It was designed specifically by people who knew much earlier

(13:15):
than we were made aware. And they used us because they
just looked at us as being the the part timers, the people who
were going to go back to other civilian careers that this would
not have a tremendous effect on us as people because we were not
as dedicated as they were because they were the full time

(13:36):
military structure. But also.
You're much easier to get rid ofthan Donald Rumsfeld.
Sure. And and you accomplish a lot of
other things in the process of using me as the scapegoat and
these soldiers. You now have created a new image
of what happens when a woman is in this war zone.
They put a dog collar and a dog leash on their prisoners.

(13:59):
Well, Lindy England didn't deploy to Iraq with a dog collar
and a dog leash. Somebody gave her those things.
You, you ensure that even thoughthere was a woman who was
attempting to knock down walls and break glass ceilings with
accomplishments and and in fact,I enjoyed the accomplishments of
women who went before me. But as the first woman to serve

(14:20):
as a commander in a combat, a female general officer
commanding troops in a combat zone, had I succeeded, then
others would have been able to come behind me and in fact go on
beyond me to to bigger and better assignments that were
traditionally only filled by men.
Male officers, they wanted to make sure that didn't happen,

(14:44):
and General Sanchez in particular wanted to make sure
it didn't happen on his watch. So there were a lot of people
over your head who made decisions out of your control
that you're taking all the fall for, correct?
You know, a chain of command goes both ways.
As a commander, you have enormous responsibility.
But my chain of command, the people above me, the people I

(15:06):
was answering to have walked away without any blame or
accountability whatsoever. And in fact have never seen me
face to face to take any of the actions that they took against
me. I've never had a general officer
call me into an office and say you're fired.

(15:27):
I heard about it from a journalist who went to the
Pentagon briefing and called me to ask for a comment and
response to that action. And, and I told him, you're the
first one to let me know. We talk about appropriate
behavior and and command responsibility.
Well, where is it in the chain of command that goes up?
You, you, you can make a target out of me.

(15:49):
Those were my soldiers. They were assigned to a
subordinate unit under the 800thMilitary Police Brigade.
I don't know why they took the instructions that they were
given. I don't know why they didn't say
no, I will not do such things. And the reason I don't know why
is not because I wasn't involved.
It's because I was never allowedto have access to those soldiers
once they were removed from their positions at Abu Ghraib.

(16:12):
And I was told that they didn't work for me.
Why is this not a more angry book then?
Well, you know, because I think anger is exhausting, takes too
much energy, and I can focus theenergy on being determined to
get to the truth, to pursue the truth, to let people know that
you don't have to agree with me.You can have your own opinion,

(16:34):
certainly, but you are certainlyentitled to know the whole
story. And we haven't seen the whole
story yet. Would it surprise you if we
learned in the coming weeks or months or in the next couple of
years that there were abuses going on elsewhere in, in the in
Guantanamo Bay, in Iraq, in Eastern Europe?

(16:55):
For heaven's sake, heaven only knows where we're holding.
Would it surprise you if there were other abuses going on right
now? I I would.
Be surprised and I would be disappointed, but I can tell you
that it was very clear not only to the military police personnel
at Abu Ghraib, not only to the to the engineers that were doing
some work out at Abu Ghraib, notto the military intelligence

(17:15):
people who were working out at Abu Ghraib.
But it was very clear to everybody that following General
Miller's visit, interrogations changed dramatically and and the
efforts that they were making atAbu Ghraib with these thousands
of so-called security detainees being interrogated or
interviewed or whatever word theinterrogators wanted to use, the

(17:37):
information did not lead to the capture of Saddam Hussein.
In fact, basic intelligence was what led to the capture of
Saddam Hussein, because the intelligence personnel who are
working in the area where he wascaptured near Tikrit, we're
actually out in the community talking to the people, getting

(17:58):
information from sources and gathering that information,
putting it together. Real intelligence work led to
the capture of Saddam Hussein. I have never abandoned my
responsibilities. I will not abandoned these
soldiers because everybody else in the system has.
And and we have a long way to goto get to the truth, but we're

(18:20):
chipping away at it. Janice Karpinski is 72 now.
Her husband is a Lieutenant Colonel assigned to the US
Embassy in Oman. Now you can get your copy of One
Woman's Army by Janice Karpinskiby tapping the link in our show
notes by clicking the link in the description below.
If you're watching this on YouTube or we're going to our
website, heardeverything.com, wemay earn an Amazon Commission if

(18:44):
you make a purchase. Heard everything.com is where
you can also find my 1994 conversation with a woman who
was kicked out of the Army in 19Eighty 1992 just for being gay,
Margaret Kammermeyer 17. 1000 people had been separated in
just in a 10 year time period. So it it turned out, not just to

(19:05):
be the need to try to change thepolicy for myself.
And my 2008 conversation with another woman who came back from
Iraq. Changed woman.
She was gravely injured in a carbomb attack by 2008 Conversation
with former CBS correspondent Kimberly Dozier.
My family. Was very upset that I would wake
up every morning, come to feel the searing pain in my legs,

(19:30):
look around the hospital room, realize where I was and it would
all come flooding back. And of course.
We post new episodes of Now I'veheard Everything every Monday,
Wednesday and Friday, and you can find us wherever you find
podcasts. And thank you so much for
listening next time on Now I've heard everything.
You know his voice, you know hisface.
He was on laugh in for many years.
My 2004 conversation with Gary Owens I've been on. 15 series.

(19:54):
A lot of people don't realize that because Rowan and Martin
laugh in it was so powerful. For six wonderful years, Ruth,
Fuzzy and I were the only two regulars who did every show with
Dan and Dick. That's next time on NOW.
I've heard everything. I'm Bill Thompson.