November 21, 2024 • 30 mins
In this episode of Now That’s IT: Stories of MSP Success, we sit down with Benji Sawyer, the high-tech guru behind Sawyer Solutions, to explore his journey from the brink of burnout to building a thriving MSP grounded in balance, compassion, and purpose. Benji opens up about the challenges of working 100-hour weeks, the pivotal moment that forced him to reassess his approach, and the strategies he used to create a sustainable, people-first business.
Discover how Benji transitioned from technician to CEO, the lessons he learned about scaling without sacrificing culture, and the steps he took to foster empathy and care at the core of his MSP. Whether you're striving for growth, searching for work-life harmony, or looking to inspire a values-driven team, Benji’s story offers actionable insights and a fresh perspective on what it means to lead in today’s MSP industry.
Tune in to learn how you can balance ambition with well-being and build a business that thrives without burning out.
Let us help you unlock your business's full potential.
N-able Business Transformation is Expert led and Peer informed.These valuable executive programs are tailored to provide effective guidance and a faster path to a scalable and successful business.
Book a Call with Chris Massey now to learn what Business Transformation can do for you!
'Now that's it: Stories of MSP Success,' dives into the journeys of some of the trailblazers in our industry to find out how they used their passion for technology to help turn Managed Services into the thriving sector it is today.
Every episode is packed with the valuable insights, practical strategies, and inspiring anecdotes that lead our guests to the transformative moment when they knew….. Now, that's it.
This podcast provides educational information about issues that may be relevant to information technology service providers.
Nothing in the podcast should be construed as any recommendation or endorsement by N-able, or as legal or any other advice.
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the podcast does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
Views and opinions expressed by N-able employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the view of N-able or its officers and directors.
The podcast may also contain forward-looking statements regarding future product plans, functionality, or development efforts that should not be interpreted as a commitment from N-able related to any deliverables or timeframe.
All content is based on information available at the time of recording, and N-able has no obligation to update any forward-looking statements.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
One, two, three go.
We did a SWOT analysis of thecompany and the greatest threat
everyone in the companyidentified at the time was me
killing myself by working toomuch.
And so I was working 100-hourweeks for months straight and
they're like you've got to stop,you've got to stop.
And when I realized they'reright, I've got to stop, I've
got to slow down, then it's amatter of affording the people
to hand it off to.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
How did you do that?
I mean, how do you approachthis new work-life balance?
I love work, I love hard work.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Physical, I don't know.
It's part of who I am.
I have a drive to do things,and so it's been difficult in a
lot of ways.
Welcome to Now.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That's it stories of MSP success, where we dive into
the journeys of some of thetrailblazers in our industry to
find out how they used theirpassion for technology to help
turn managed services into thethriving sector it is today.
Benji Sawyer, welcome to theNow that's it podcast.
Thanks for having me.
So you label yourself as thehigh-tech guru guy at Sawyer
(00:56):
Systems?
Is that like Superman's ClarkKent identity?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
No, I'm pretty irreverent just in my own, like
everyday life, and we don't dofancy titles, we don't do stuffy
stuff.
Uh, you know, in fact, in ourjob postings we're talking about
, like, how we're not stuffedshirts.
Uh, it got me in trouble when Iwas in corporate America a lot.
Um, they didn't alwaysappreciate my sense of humor and
how I approach things, and sonow that I have a free hand to
(01:22):
do whatever I want, that'ssomething I came up with right
after we started the company andreally started doing it almost
11 years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Co-founder and CEO at Sawyer Solutions.
You're a youth volunteer, skier, jogger, gamer when you have
free time right when I had freetime, I used to do those things.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Now I have a business and six kids.
That's pretty much all I do.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You grew up in a family of serial entrepreneurs,
you told me.
Grew up in a family of serialentrepreneurs.
You told me the mutual friendBoyd Smith, who had an episode
just recently.
He talks about how rare it isand hard for first-generation
entrepreneurs.
What was it like growing uparound entrepreneurs and how did
you think it shaped your future?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So I never wanted to be an entrepreneur, just flat.
So my parents, they startedtheir first business after they
got married back in the 70s.
They did radio repair onairplanes and then the Arab Olin
Buggers shut all that downbecause no one flew anymore.
They started a business.
Painting towers eventuallyturned into erecting towers, big
giant steel towers that don'treally get made much anymore.
Both sets of grandparents wereentrepreneurs.
One owned a tire store and werefarmers.
(02:24):
The other one had owned a gasstation at one point in time and
did a bunch of other things.
And so we've always, I guess,had an entrepreneurial spirit in
ways.
And I very, very stronglyremember you know it's a rite of
passage I tell my kids, as aSawyer, you have to paint your
parents' office, and so Iremember doing that for them.
My kids paint, the older kidspaint paint the office.
(02:46):
We moved into it and stuff andso.
But I never wanted to do itthere.
While they've done a lot ofbusiness types of things,
they've never been reallyfocused on success.
It's never been about making alot of money, it's more
lifestyle for them.
So I've made more money thanothers and I mean there there
are times we didn't really havemuch, and it was a lot of work.
I saw how much work they putinto it.
My friend's parents didn't worknearly as much, and so I never
(03:10):
wanted to do it.
Growing up it was always I wasgoing to be a physicist or a
scientist of some type, notgoing to be an entrepreneur here
I am.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So you went to school for physics and then you ended
up studying programming andbecoming a web developer in
corporate world.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yes, Turns out I hate physics.
Not completely accurate.
I'm a high-level idea guy andwhen you get into physics, if
you don't know, I like the ideasbehind the physics.
The actual math I despise.
And so, yeah, I did it until mysenior year in college Realized
this was not for me.
I'd done programming, a lot ofprogramming.
I was actually programmingprofessionally for a company.
My dad worked for good money atit as a college student, really
(03:44):
enjoyed it and decided that'swhat I want to do the rest of my
my life and so started that soyou actually wanted to be a
physicist growing up.
I want to be, so everyone's like.
You should be a scientist.
You should be a scientist rightand you get told something often
enough, you, you do, and so,like, I'm like I like a
challenge and so what's the mostchallenging part of science?
Physics, and so so, yeah, I'dalways had in my mind to be a
physicist, even though I wasreally, really good at chemistry
.
I'm going to be a great chemistbecause I like experiments and
(04:07):
there's a lot less math andchemistry and so.
But I got stuck in my mind Iwas going to be a physicist and
just stuck there until Irealized senior year, I don't
have to do this thing.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I can be something different.
I did the same thing.
I went to school for physics.
But I went to school forphysics because I don't want to
be a physicist.
I wanted to get into computers,and I thought you kind of had
to know physics to work at IBM,only to realize there's plenty
of other paths to be able to getthere.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yes, that is not generally the primary career
path.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
That's right.
So then on the side, youstarted Sawyer Solutions with
your dad and two other men, butyou had something different in
mind, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It was actually a joint venture.
We started the company right.
Software is back to tower.
The two people we were inbusiness with were both
structural engineers and my dadhad hired them to help back when
they worked at a tower companytogether 30 some years before we
started the business andthey're fast friends, know each
other a long time and theyneeded inspection software to
inspect towers.
At the time the only inspectionsoftware was out there were all
(05:06):
web-based and the kind ofinspections they were doing
there was no cell signal oryou're putting up a tower that
had the cell signal and so wehad to write a completely
offline method.
We were going to write thesoftware they're going to market
and sell for us.
We wrote the software didn'treally get much selling done, so
it's learned a valuable lessonthere, a lot of valuable lessons
on that one.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
So the power structure thing doesn't work out
, but you have an opportunitythat comes up that lets you and
your wife leave Memphis.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yes, at the time I was working for Brother
International, we lived inMemphis.
I didn't want to work thereanymore.
I didn't want to live thereanymore.
Let me phrase it like that Iwould have been happy if they
had a place in Golden, colorado,and I'm more than happy they
let me work there.
They did not.
So opportunity came up tobasically step into the MSP role
with a client where my momworked, and yeah, so we took it
(05:54):
on and started being full-timeMSP and transitions out of
corporate America intoentrepreneur life.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
What was that first stop?
What would that look like?
Was it more of a break-fix?
Speaker 1 (06:04):
type of no, it was actually full-up MSP, was it,
yeah?
And so it was a really good wedidn't start with break-fix.
They actually were coming froma fully managed kind of style.
It wasn't as much money as itneeded to be, as we discovered
later on, but it was a goodstarting point for us to start
out as this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Now, most of the clients we acquired after that
were break fixer a la carte, butthat one started out as a
full-time.
How did you know how tostructure that first one?
I mean, you had never, had youdone, had you seen him, hadn't
yeah we just kind of took whatthey had, yeah, and ran with it
yeah so what are they paying?
You just pay us the same thing.
It was a little more yeah, wewere better.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
We're doing a couple more things he wasn't doing.
Right, that's essentially yes,correct.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Wow.
So that's first of all.
That's got to be a prettyunique opportunity, because I
feel like most starting MSPshave to go to some manual book,
talk to somebody in thecommunity and go, oh, this is
what a contract should look likeand what should be included in
the package.
And you actually had a customerthat said I need X, y and Z and
you said we can deliver that.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yes, yeah, so it's a benefit of personal
relationships, but we're inBirmingham, alabama, where
relationships are key, andthey'd known us for a long time.
They trusted us and you know,so we were a known quantity.
They were willing to take arisk on.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So what did the organization look your
organization at that time?
What was your role?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
What was your dad's role?
The way we structure thebusiness is my mom and my wife
each own a quarter.
My dad and I each own a quarter, just because that's the way we
structure the business.
At the time my dad was runningthe CEO.
It was always designed for meto take over and run it.
He's turning 74 this year.
That was almost 11 years ago.
They knew there's a tickingclock here, right, and so it was
always going to be one of thethings where they were going to
turn it over to us or me and letme run it.
So he had a lot more experiencerunning the business than I had
.
I took one business class incollege.
(07:48):
It was macroeconomics, which isonly loosely business related.
So I came from corporateAmerica.
I was a senior web developerand I was in charge of mentoring
and all this kind of stuff, butit wasn't a business role and
so since they had moreexperience in it, they basically
kind, kind of ran the businessat first, but it was still run
as kind of my business, right.
(08:09):
I had the final say so were you?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
what kind of a visionary were you in those
early days?
Obviously you weren't the ceoyet, but did you have directions
that could you see thepossibility and the
opportunities with the companyand like, what did the, what did
the business model, the plan,what did it look like in those
early days?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
so that's a great question and I came to realizing
I was a visionary late in life,because I always imagine
visionaries walt disney, he'ssuper, super creative, right,
because he's held up as aquintessential visionary, right,
super creative, all this kindof stuff and I just didn't feel
like I was that creative.
But I am just in a differentway, right, and it's one things
where, like you know, you don'tthink things you know about
(08:45):
yourself.
You think everyone else hasthose too, but they don't
necessarily.
Like.
I have a friend who can't seethings in his head.
That's a thing, right.
When everyone's pictured this,he thought it was metaphorical,
not actual, literal, and so Ididn't really understand that.
And so, over the years, I kindof grew into it and it really
was about 2018, when I went tothe Goldman Sachs program, that
I really started understandingthat this is actually what I'm
(09:06):
for, this is what I'm good at, Ican see long term, I can see in
the future, get an actualvisual picture in my head of
what I want the future to looklike and direct things towards
that.
But early on no, early on wewere scrambling to make it work,
batten down the hatches, figureout this whole new business
we've never been in before.
Like I mean, we've done mspwork for businesses we've worked
(09:27):
with, but never done it as anmsp, and so trying to make all
that work and everything likethat, that, that was really what
kind of consumed me for thefirst couple of years what were
some of those, like some ofthose early challenges,
entrepreneurial challenges,business owner challenges that
you experienced and were theysurprising to you?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Were they surprising to your wife?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
It took a lot longer to get our second customer than
I thought it would.
We were just handed this giftof a first customer.
It was a good sized customer andso, like you know, like getting
our second customer took a lotlonger than I thought and it was
a really small customer becauseit was a two computer shop,
right, like you know, and thenlike so so growing that that's
been the most challenging part.
I'm not a sales guy, I don'thave a sales background, I'm a
(10:11):
technical person.
Just most MSP owners you haveto split, but a lot of them
started out as technical people.
I never wanted to do sales.
I didn't have the skill set forit, I wasn't equipped for it.
It still is consistently themost challenging part for us is,
you know, we do great and getreferrals and all that kind of
stuff, but like the actual saleshas been a learning experience.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I've known you for the last three or four years
now and I would say early onwhen I met you.
First of all, you're veryoutgoing.
You have no problem striking upa conversation, asking a
question, and so it'sinteresting you say you're not a
salesperson but you have someof the sales characteristics
right, Like you could go to thebar or a dinner or meet some
(10:52):
stranger and start talking techwith them.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I can.
That is a learned trait.
I used to and I'll censor thiswhen I was programming.
I used to say that I chose mycareer with malicious
forethought so that I coulddress casually and be a jerk to
people, and it was part of thecourse, right?
Because who thinks programmersare nice guys?
No one.
And so I was extremelyintroverted, a wallflower kind
(11:16):
of person.
So the idea of going up andtalking to people is something
I've learned to do over theyears.
I spent a lot of time in BNI.
That's why BNI is great for alot of things, especially when
you're starting out.
The clients we got out of BNI.
You know they got us to wherewe are, but they're not actually
the clients we need goingforward.
But I learned a lot of thingsabout networking and interacting
with people and working on thatkind of stuff, and that was
very beneficial to me.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Talk about the business growing.
You talked a little bit abouthow it took you a little bit of
time to get that second client,but how long did it take you to
get the third client and thefourth client?
And then when did you start torealize, well, we need more
staff and we've got to continueto grow.
Just what was that evolutionlike?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So I mean it was slow growth at first.
We grow consistently, but ittook a while because we weren't
sure about a pricing scheme andall the normal stuff you start
out with a business.
We started getting somemomentum and then six and a half
years six and a half years agowe hired our first employee.
Since we started, my dad and Istarted together.
There was already two of us.
We overcame that first hurdleof needing to add that first
(12:15):
person on, because now there'salready two of us, but of course
we weren't really making a lotof money that time, that point
in time.
But we needed a employee thereto basically be there all the
time as a tech, so that we coulddo the networking and all other
stuff we were doing and stillhave the phone manned.
And so we hired a guy who wentto church with me.
It was a great fit.
In a lot of ways it was a greatfirst employee.
(12:36):
But when he left he told mesomething that I found very
gratifying, which is he's likeyou know, before I went to work
for you I thought I wanted tostart my own business.
Now I realize I do not, andthat's a compliment.
Well, it's harder than peoplethink, right.
They think oh it's going to beeasy, and it is not easy.
Right, it is really not easy.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I think that's what's great about you, Benji, is
you're a pretty transparentperson.
So talk a little bit about theculture.
Right?
You're starting to hireemployees.
I mean, it's you and your dadand your dad.
First of all, I love my dad,and we agree some days and we
don't agree other days, so thathad to be an interesting dynamic
.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
It can be, and we've been told by staff several times
.
We argue too loudly a lot, yeah, but it's nice.
I mean I have friends that havecome from families they could
not trust to run their businesswith never been a problem for me
.
You know the fact that thismatter is like my parents we may
disagree on things, but I knowthey always have my best
interests at heart and so itmakes it easy in that regard.
(13:35):
But the culture has been.
I've been very intentionalabout that.
In 2018, I went through goldmansachs program, which I talked
about a little bit, and itreally drove home the importance
of culture, and I knew thatbecause, you know, I'd worked at
some bad places that had reallybad culture.
Yeah, and you can look them upon my LinkedIn.
Actually, one of the thingsthat really drove it home was
and this is you know, it's arelevant tangent, so I'll bring
(13:57):
it in so I lost a child.
Our third child died after afew days and so, against the
rules, my boss said go, I don'twant to see you for a month.
That was not what was allowed,right, right by corporate, but
she understood, like, theimportance of people, and I came
back a month later she sent mehome again after I cussed out
(14:17):
someone on a phone call and so Iwas not ready to be back at the
office, yeah, and so I realizedthat I wanted to build a place
fairly early on.
That really was about thepeople involved and gave them a
place like a refuge to be people, and so I always kind of built
the culture with that in mind.
I distinctly remember one timein tech you get a lot of men,
(14:38):
right, let's just be honestright, most of your employees
are going to be guys, and a lotof times, if you're not careful,
it can turn into bro culture.
And so a couple of my techswere joking around and they
started the that's what she saysjoke and it really irked me,
and it really irked me a lot,and I turned around and said
guys, you've got to stop Like,this is not acceptable here.
(14:58):
I don't know why I feel thisstrongly about it, but this is
not going to fly and I will fireyou.
And I never, I never threatenedmy employees, but I, I will
fire you if you continue it.
That was flat and they didn'tlike they, they, oh okay, I'm
sorry, but I realized later onit was, you know like when I
really had to under reflect onit it was, it was because it
wasn't.
You know it's.
It's not the kind of place wewant to be Like we want to.
(15:19):
You know that've always triedto build culture around people
and valuing people, because sooften in life that's not the
case, especially in our world.
I see it so often in my MSPs inmy area that just treat their
employees like dirt, treat themlike disposable cogs, and I
(15:41):
think that's morally wrong, andso that's what I'm trying to
stop.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, I think that comes from part of your.
You know the way you wereraised and, obviously, the
family.
You're a family man, right, andyou have.
You're a churchgoer, like youabsolutely have your feet on the
solid ground, right.
That this is what it shouldfeel like to come to work.
It should be a safe space,right, we're going to have good
(16:05):
days, we're going to have baddays, but you just need to set
the ground rules, set theboundaries, because you know
it's okay to blow off steam andget frustrated, but not not
disrespect.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yes, it's.
Let's be honest, it'sfrustrating.
Right?
You're going to deal withcustomers that are upset, and
they're generally not upset atyou.
Yeah, they're so sad and that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
So you mentioned this a couple of times 2018, you
attended the Goldman Sachs10,000 small business program.
Yes, what impact did that haveon your business?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
That's probably the single greatest impact I've ever
had of anything.
My business is like flat noholds barred.
It took me from being atechnician to a business owner.
If you ever have anyone who'swatching this has a chance to do
this program, you a hundredpercent need to do it.
It's a great program, put puton my Goldman Sachs, a bunch of
other people that collaboratetogether, and it's designed to
basically take small businessowners, who are generally good
at the thing they sell but notgood at being a business owner,
(16:55):
and turn them into a businessowner.
Think about it as a businessowner instead of the profession.
You are right, and that was anabsolutely amazing journey.
It was really hard, like threemonths of super condensed
learning while you're running abusiness.
That was rough, but it wasreally beneficial to me.
It made me confident that, nomatter what, I may not achieve
(17:15):
mega success in the world'sterms, but I can run a business.
I'm confident we're going tosucceed.
It may not be as fast as I wantsometimes, but we'll continue
to see and grow.
It gave me the tools to makethat happen.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
About this time you took over as CEO, but your dad
didn't want to step out, thoughno, he's still there today.
And how did this happen and howdid you manage it without sort
of awkwardness at that time?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Well, it's kind of gradual.
After I did the Almost TaxProgram I more and more took the
lead and stuff and it's verygradual.
But everyone all the employeesalways knew we were very clear
up front that like, while my dad, Ken, may have been running the
company at that point in time,officially, it was always gonna
be me stepping in right, and soeveryone knew this was gonna
happen.
It's a matter of when it wasgonna happen.
And so it was very, even thoughI wasn't officially the CEO, it
(18:04):
kind of ran thatFO role helikes playing with data and
numbers and so I just took overthe official title of running
the business.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
So how did you?
I know you talked a little bitabout the Goldman Sachs program
helping you think more like abusiness owners, but how did you
actually transition from thetechnical work to the business
management?
What?
How'd you learn those softskills?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So when I was working for Brother, I was in charge of
mentoring.
I was a senior developer inNorth and South America and so I
was in charge of mentoring andbuilding the team in a lot of
ways as well as doing the actualtechnical work.
So it kind of started there andI'd always worked on it and
stuff.
I enjoy solving puzzles andstuff, but at the end of the day
you're doing the same thingover and over again because
(18:46):
computers act in the same manner.
It's not squirrely sometimes,but by and large the same manner
.
But people are endlesslyinventive, right.
People are endlessly and I likenew things.
So therefore I really startedenjoying dealing with people in
a lot of ways.
They're always a new challenge,right.
It can be frustrating, don't getme wrong.
There are days when I'm like ohmy gosh.
But dealing with people is kindof the ultimate thing and it
(19:09):
stretches me, it does wear meout.
It's not my natural inclination, but I understood that if I was
going to grow the business, theway I needed to identified at
the time was me killing myselfby working too much, and so,
(19:29):
like I was working 100 hourweeks for months straight and
they're like you've got to stop,you've got to stop.
And when I realized they'reright, I've got to stop, I got
to slow down.
Then it's a matter of affordingpeople to hand it off to.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, so how'd you do that?
I mean, how do you approachthis new work-life balance?
And again, I've gotten to knowyou uh, you have, you have six
kids.
Obviously you've got your handsfull, but how?
Do you, how do you, how do youshed some of that?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So it's actually I love work, like, like I um, you
know, like I love, I love work.
I love hard work, physical, Idon't know.
It's part of who I am.
I have a drive to do things,and so it's been difficult in a
lot of ways.
I slowed it down.
It's kind of gradual over time.
Stepping back was difficult.
It really wasn't.
That's.
Every entrepreneur goes throughthis Handing things off,
(20:16):
trusting someone to do the jobfor you.
It really drove home one daywhen one of the guys had done
something and he did a betterjob at it than I would have.
I'm like, okay, that's it.
I don't have to be the final ofall knowledge.
I don't have to be like I'mhiring people, hopefully, who
are better at doing the thingthan I am, yep, you know, and my
job is to give them guidance asneeded, and so that's what I
shoot for I have the samechallenge that you do.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's like I don't know if it was the way I was
raised or just my aggressivenessin the situation is if you want
something done, right, you gotto do it yourself Right.
But that's not the answer.
When you have a million things,you're responsible for Right
Work until you're done.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Whatever that looks like I get it from my farming
grandparents.
Yeah, you know, when there'swork to do, you work.
Yeah, it doesn't matter howtired you are.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You work until the work's done.
What are you the most proud ofover the last handful of years?
Obviously, I know you're notdone growing, you're not done
transforming your MSP, but whatare you the most proud of?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
The team we've assembled is amazing.
It really is.
They're a great group of people.
It's been fun learning over theyears who's going to work in an
organization, who's not goingto work in an organization.
But one of the things we reallytalk about is care and
compassion and empathy, and wehave an amazing group of people
who are technical in natureright, they do a technical job
(21:31):
but they also understand thevalue of human beings and
showing caring and compassionand empathy to people.
I've always wanted to buildsomething like you know, like
the Ritz-Carlton kind of thing,where people are empowered to
solve problems.
It may not be technicalproblems, but problems people
have, and so they'll do thingsand they'll tell me about it.
One of our customers was doingtheir annual or biannual audit
of the thing they've got atPlotnitz and they were having a
(21:53):
rough time getting through it,and so I think it brought them
pizza.
We had someone whose mother wasin the hospital and they were
in Nashville, so they boughtthem gas cards to help pay for
the gas, because they're doingtrips two or three times a week.
It's ways of caring for eachother and caring for our
customers and, in addition tosolving their technical problems
, being great on the technicalside too, but just being good
with people.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
There's something neat about you that I thought
I'd mention on the podcast.
Not too many people do this,but you are a good listener.
You listen to people talk aboutoh I like this author, or I
like this topic, or read thisbook and you have a knack for
sending people a copy of a bookthat you thought they might
value.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Why do you do that Knowledge?
And long ago, when I was young,I thought I had to come up with
all this stuff on my own.
I don't know where I got thatidea, but when I realized that
people have tread this pathbefore and there's wisdom to be
waiting, like, I want to spreadthat so that it makes everyone's
lives better.
Right, like, if you canshortcut me, if I can read your
story or read something thatyou've written, it's going to
(22:53):
help me shortcut something.
And I don't have to, like, doall the hard work myself,
because there's plenty of hardwork to do even further down the
road.
Right, I will gladly do that.
And so I want people to youknow, have the same benefits
that I can.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Like whenever I can provide them.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
We all grow together.
The rising tide lifts all boatsright and I want to help be
that kind of rising tide.
Help good people, you know, dogood things.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, that's what I really love about you, ben.
You definitely are a uniquesoul and it's interesting, the
people that you do interact with, guys like Jimmy, guys like
Boyd I always hear them bringyour name up and it's always
positive, right?
Oh, I had this conversation,man.
What Benji said was reallyinteresting, so you definitely
have an impact on folks, forsure.
So what's next for you, benji?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Oh, what's next for me?
I mean, this month I plan ontaking a lot of time off.
Actually, good for you, spendtime with the family, although
you know, life always intrudes,you know.
But for me, you know, it'sreally about being more
comfortable with who I am.
Earlier this year I didsomething that may sound
horrible to people.
It may sound great, but I tooka think week, modeled after Bill
(24:00):
Gates' think weeks, and I wentto a cabin in the woods and it
was the most refreshing timeI've had in my life and I was
there by myself, which I'm anintrovert, so it was great.
I did miss the kids, especiallyat the first couple days,
because I live in a house of sixkids and it's insane all the
time.
It was a little weird.
Having quiet time, yeah, but Iwould get up in the morning, eat
some breakfast, go for a hike.
(24:20):
I love hiking, hiking and then,since it's Alabama and it's
January, it could be 30 degrees,it could be 80 degrees.
Luckily it was more like the 70, 80 range.
It was beautiful weather on thetrails by myself, because it's
the middle of January and theweek I wouldn't see another soul
and I'd hike for three, fourhours, go back, eat some lunch
and crack open a business bookand read until I went to bed
(24:41):
that night and just think andponder and pray and do things
that just really replenish mysoul.
And that was amazing and itreally helped me understand that
I've got to take better care ofmyself.
I'm the kind of person whotraditionally would not do a
good job of that, but that if Iwant to be the man I need to be
for my family and for myemployees, that I've got to take
(25:01):
a better care of myself, and sothat's kind of what I'm working
on now.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I'm glad to hear that I want that as well.
So what's next for SawyerSolutions?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, I had this really crazy idea that I'm
rethinking.
I was working with a salescoach and she was great.
Last year we had completed ourfirst 10X.
So we started the company.
We made $160,000 the first year.
Last year we made $1.8 millionand so that was 10x bigger than
we were when we started.
It took us 10 years to getthere.
I'm like great.
So I just finished reading DanSullivan's 10x is Easier Than 2x
.
It's a great book.
All of Dan Sullivan's books aregreat.
(25:33):
And I was like what's our next10x going to be?
What are we going to do here?
And I was talking to her aboutit and I was like, yeah, we can
do it eight years.
And it's like you're reallycomfortable with eight years.
Why don't you push it further?
I'm like I'm comfortable eightyears.
The math adds up, I can do itpretty easily in eight years, I
think.
So I decided I would try topush it to six years.
So that was this year's goal,was like kind of launch that off
(25:53):
.
And after doing that, I'm notsure I want to do that Like I
want to be Right.
And then how fast, how mucheffort I want to put into
getting there Right.
How much sacrifice is worth it.
Right, I have six kids.
My oldest is now 17.
She turns 18 in January.
Our youngest two are turningfive in a month.
There's only so much time withthem, right, I can.
I can build a bigger businesslater.
(26:15):
Right, and I've missed a lot oftheir times.
Sure, I sacrificed a lot to, toto get the business to where it
is, and so I'm really takingtime to think like, what is it I
really want to do?
Yeah, and rethink my plans, andI'm probably right now, which I
may change, but right now I'mleaning towards you know what?
It's okay to be smaller.
I can be a small big.
You know, a small giant if youwill have an outsized impact,
(26:40):
one of the things that IT hasdelivered Oftentimes you know
this because I'm not wearing it,but I have the no-jerk shirt,
which is infamous around Enable.
One of our core values is ifyou're a jerk, it ain't going to
work, and we mean that for ourcustomers.
We mean that for our employees,because often, too often, in
our industry, people are justtalked down to, they're
belittled, they are made to feelsmall because they don't know
(27:01):
something that the techniciandoes, and that's wrong, morally
and ethically wrong, and so Iwant a mission to change that
about our industry, to make itso.
The industry is one of actualservice.
Right, we are providing aservice to people.
Technology is how we'redelivering this, like it's
around that, but it's to apeople.
Right, we were doing this topeople, for people, and we need
to take that into account.
And so, you know, our actualmission is to change the way
(27:28):
that technology is delivered sothat it's one done with caring
and compassion, and so that's abig, lofty mission.
And I just I'm just stillgetting like that's not the
finished, polished version ofthe mission statement.
I'm still working on that, butlike, but it's okay if it takes
a while to get there.
We're not the only ones Like I'mnot saying that we're the only
ones who had this idea.
Cause I know we're not likemost, most of my, like my
friends that I've met throughthese enable events.
We all share the same idea inthis regard.
I'm just the one who's mostopenly talking about it and so
(27:49):
you know it'd be easier to makethat impact if I was a hundred
million dollar company.
But I've also got to balancethat against the actual personal
weight and measurements, whatit's going to do my personal
life.
So I don't really know what'sexactly next, except for I want
to keep pushing down the road oftrying to show people that this
is how it should be done.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Have you started to think at all about the long,
long-term plan, like where youwant this to go?
I mean, there was a successionplan for you.
Is that what you think might be?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
there for I mean, your kids are young, right?
Yeah, well, I mean, they havean age range.
The plan's always been, in thiscase it's to make it a
lifestyle business.
I don't really plan on sellingit anytime soon, yeah, but to
potentially, you know, have itwhere the kids can take over if
they want to I?
There are other businesses outthere that I really admire.
There's one who's turned hisbusiness recently into an esop
and so the employees can cantake ownership of it.
(28:40):
There's another business it'sactually a crane business out of
out of memphis.
They turned themselves into anon-profit.
Half their profit every year isreserved for growth of the
company and half their profit isdonated to charities.
Wow, and the owners, like whenthey started what the owners
bought it out from their dad andwhen they took over they set
their how much money they'd evermake and like that's been it
and so like they're they're notcashing in, like they're in,
(29:03):
they're very free how much moneythey have and stuff.
There's lots of options andthat kind of thing for me to
figure out.
I don't really have a drivingurge to work on that right now,
but I do think about it fromtime to time.
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
So the last question I want to ask you is when did
you know?
Now that's it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
So I was driving from Memphis when we first started
doing this.
I was still working for Brother, and so I'd drive from Memphis
to Birmingham to do things.
I had a lot of time banked andstuff.
And so I remember driving downthe road and, as you mentioned,
I'm a man of faith and I waslike is this really it?
I have this long prayer becauseit's four hours in the car by
myself and a guy would answerthis is it?
I'm like are you really sure?
(29:39):
And the guy answered yes.
I'm like, okay, then I will dothis until you tell me otherwise
.
And so that's when I realizedthat's it.
I'm doing this until I'm toldotherwise.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
So great, benji, it was a real pleasure having you
this week.
I am so honored to have met youin the last couple of years and
gotten to know you well.
Thank you so much for beingwith us.
Thank you very much.
One, two, three go.
We did a SWOT analysis of thecompany and the greatest threat
everyone in the companyidentified at the time was me
killing myself by working toomuch.
And so I was working 100-hourweeks for months straight and
they're like you've got to stop,you've got to stop.
And when I realized they'reright, I've got to stop, I've
got to slow down, then it's amatter of affording the people
to hand it off to.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
How did you do that?
I mean, how do you approachthis new work-life balance?
I love work, I love hard work.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Physical, I don't know.
It's part of who I am.
I have a drive to do things,and so it's been difficult in a
lot of ways.
Welcome to Now.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That's it stories of MSP success, where we dive into
the journeys of some of thetrailblazers in our industry to
find out how they used theirpassion for technology to help
turn managed services into thethriving sector it is today.
Benji Sawyer, welcome to theNow that's it podcast.
Thanks for having me.
So you label yourself as thehigh-tech guru guy at Sawyer
(00:56):
Systems?
Is that like Superman's ClarkKent identity?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
No, I'm pretty irreverent just in my own, like
everyday life, and we don't dofancy titles, we don't do stuffy
stuff.
Uh, you know, in fact, in ourjob postings we're talking about
, like, how we're not stuffedshirts.
Uh, it got me in trouble when Iwas in corporate America a lot.
Um, they didn't alwaysappreciate my sense of humor and
how I approach things, and sonow that I have a free hand to
(01:22):
do whatever I want, that'ssomething I came up with right
after we started the company andreally started doing it almost
11 years ago.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Co-founder and CEO at Sawyer Solutions.
You're a youth volunteer, skier, jogger, gamer when you have
free time right when I had freetime, I used to do those things.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Now I have a business and six kids.
That's pretty much all I do.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You grew up in a family of serial entrepreneurs,
you told me.
Grew up in a family of serialentrepreneurs.
You told me the mutual friendBoyd Smith, who had an episode
just recently.
He talks about how rare it isand hard for first-generation
entrepreneurs.
What was it like growing uparound entrepreneurs and how did
you think it shaped your future?
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So I never wanted to be an entrepreneur, just flat.
So my parents, they startedtheir first business after they
got married back in the 70s.
They did radio repair onairplanes and then the Arab Olin
Buggers shut all that downbecause no one flew anymore.
They started a business.
Painting towers eventuallyturned into erecting towers, big
giant steel towers that don'treally get made much anymore.
Both sets of grandparents wereentrepreneurs.
One owned a tire store and werefarmers.
(02:24):
The other one had owned a gasstation at one point in time and
did a bunch of other things.
And so we've always, I guess,had an entrepreneurial spirit in
ways.
And I very, very stronglyremember you know it's a rite of
passage I tell my kids, as aSawyer, you have to paint your
parents' office, and so Iremember doing that for them.
My kids paint, the older kidspaint paint the office.
(02:46):
We moved into it and stuff andso.
But I never wanted to do itthere.
While they've done a lot ofbusiness types of things,
they've never been reallyfocused on success.
It's never been about making alot of money, it's more
lifestyle for them.
So I've made more money thanothers and I mean there there
are times we didn't really havemuch, and it was a lot of work.
I saw how much work they putinto it.
My friend's parents didn't worknearly as much, and so I never
(03:10):
wanted to do it.
Growing up it was always I wasgoing to be a physicist or a
scientist of some type, notgoing to be an entrepreneur here
I am.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So you went to school for physics and then you ended
up studying programming andbecoming a web developer in
corporate world.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yes, Turns out I hate physics.
Not completely accurate.
I'm a high-level idea guy andwhen you get into physics, if
you don't know, I like the ideasbehind the physics.
The actual math I despise.
And so, yeah, I did it until mysenior year in college Realized
this was not for me.
I'd done programming, a lot ofprogramming.
I was actually programmingprofessionally for a company.
My dad worked for good money atit as a college student, really
(03:44):
enjoyed it and decided that'swhat I want to do the rest of my
my life and so started that soyou actually wanted to be a
physicist growing up.
I want to be, so everyone's like.
You should be a scientist.
You should be a scientist rightand you get told something often
enough, you, you do, and so,like, I'm like I like a
challenge and so what's the mostchallenging part of science?
Physics, and so so, yeah, I'dalways had in my mind to be a
physicist, even though I wasreally, really good at chemistry
.
I'm going to be a great chemistbecause I like experiments and
(04:07):
there's a lot less math andchemistry and so.
But I got stuck in my mind Iwas going to be a physicist and
just stuck there until Irealized senior year, I don't
have to do this thing.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I can be something different.
I did the same thing.
I went to school for physics.
But I went to school forphysics because I don't want to
be a physicist.
I wanted to get into computers,and I thought you kind of had
to know physics to work at IBM,only to realize there's plenty
of other paths to be able to getthere.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yes, that is not generally the primary career
path.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
That's right.
So then on the side, youstarted Sawyer Solutions with
your dad and two other men, butyou had something different in
mind, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
It was actually a joint venture.
We started the company right.
Software is back to tower.
The two people we were inbusiness with were both
structural engineers and my dadhad hired them to help back when
they worked at a tower companytogether 30 some years before we
started the business andthey're fast friends, know each
other a long time and theyneeded inspection software to
inspect towers.
At the time the only inspectionsoftware was out there were all
(05:06):
web-based and the kind ofinspections they were doing
there was no cell signal oryou're putting up a tower that
had the cell signal and so wehad to write a completely
offline method.
We were going to write thesoftware they're going to market
and sell for us.
We wrote the software didn'treally get much selling done, so
it's learned a valuable lessonthere, a lot of valuable lessons
on that one.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
So the power structure thing doesn't work out
, but you have an opportunitythat comes up that lets you and
your wife leave Memphis.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Yes, at the time I was working for Brother
International, we lived inMemphis.
I didn't want to work thereanymore.
I didn't want to live thereanymore.
Let me phrase it like that Iwould have been happy if they
had a place in Golden, colorado,and I'm more than happy they
let me work there.
They did not.
So opportunity came up tobasically step into the MSP role
with a client where my momworked, and yeah, so we took it
(05:54):
on and started being full-timeMSP and transitions out of
corporate America intoentrepreneur life.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
What was that first stop?
What would that look like?
Was it more of a break-fix?
Speaker 1 (06:04):
type of no, it was actually full-up MSP, was it,
yeah?
And so it was a really good wedidn't start with break-fix.
They actually were coming froma fully managed kind of style.
It wasn't as much money as itneeded to be, as we discovered
later on, but it was a goodstarting point for us to start
out as this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Now, most of the clients we acquired after that
were break fixer a la carte, butthat one started out as a
full-time.
How did you know how tostructure that first one?
I mean, you had never, had youdone, had you seen him, hadn't
yeah we just kind of took whatthey had, yeah, and ran with it
yeah so what are they paying?
You just pay us the same thing.
It was a little more yeah, wewere better.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
We're doing a couple more things he wasn't doing.
Right, that's essentially yes,correct.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Wow.
So that's first of all.
That's got to be a prettyunique opportunity, because I
feel like most starting MSPshave to go to some manual book,
talk to somebody in thecommunity and go, oh, this is
what a contract should look likeand what should be included in
the package.
And you actually had a customerthat said I need X, y and Z and
you said we can deliver that.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yes, yeah, so it's a benefit of personal
relationships, but we're inBirmingham, alabama, where
relationships are key, andthey'd known us for a long time.
They trusted us and you know,so we were a known quantity.
They were willing to take arisk on.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
So what did the organization look your
organization at that time?
What was your role?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
What was your dad's role?
The way we structure thebusiness is my mom and my wife
each own a quarter.
My dad and I each own a quarter, just because that's the way we
structure the business.
At the time my dad was runningthe CEO.
It was always designed for meto take over and run it.
He's turning 74 this year.
That was almost 11 years ago.
They knew there's a tickingclock here, right, and so it was
always going to be one of thethings where they were going to
turn it over to us or me and letme run it.
So he had a lot more experiencerunning the business than I had
.
I took one business class incollege.
(07:48):
It was macroeconomics, which isonly loosely business related.
So I came from corporateAmerica.
I was a senior web developerand I was in charge of mentoring
and all this kind of stuff, butit wasn't a business role and
so since they had moreexperience in it, they basically
kind, kind of ran the businessat first, but it was still run
as kind of my business, right.
(08:09):
I had the final say so were you?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
what kind of a visionary were you in those
early days?
Obviously you weren't the ceoyet, but did you have directions
that could you see thepossibility and the
opportunities with the companyand like, what did the, what did
the business model, the plan,what did it look like in those
early days?
Speaker 1 (08:25):
so that's a great question and I came to realizing
I was a visionary late in life,because I always imagine
visionaries walt disney, he'ssuper, super creative, right,
because he's held up as aquintessential visionary, right,
super creative, all this kindof stuff and I just didn't feel
like I was that creative.
But I am just in a differentway, right, and it's one things
where, like you know, you don'tthink things you know about
(08:45):
yourself.
You think everyone else hasthose too, but they don't
necessarily.
Like.
I have a friend who can't seethings in his head.
That's a thing, right.
When everyone's pictured this,he thought it was metaphorical,
not actual, literal, and so Ididn't really understand that.
And so, over the years, I kindof grew into it and it really
was about 2018, when I went tothe Goldman Sachs program, that
I really started understandingthat this is actually what I'm
(09:06):
for, this is what I'm good at, Ican see long term, I can see in
the future, get an actualvisual picture in my head of
what I want the future to looklike and direct things towards
that.
But early on no, early on wewere scrambling to make it work,
batten down the hatches, figureout this whole new business
we've never been in before.
Like I mean, we've done mspwork for businesses we've worked
(09:27):
with, but never done it as anmsp, and so trying to make all
that work and everything likethat, that, that was really what
kind of consumed me for thefirst couple of years what were
some of those, like some ofthose early challenges,
entrepreneurial challenges,business owner challenges that
you experienced and were theysurprising to you?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Were they surprising to your wife?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
It took a lot longer to get our second customer than
I thought it would.
We were just handed this giftof a first customer.
It was a good sized customer andso, like you know, like getting
our second customer took a lotlonger than I thought and it was
a really small customer becauseit was a two computer shop,
right, like you know, and thenlike so so growing that that's
been the most challenging part.
I'm not a sales guy, I don'thave a sales background, I'm a
(10:11):
technical person.
Just most MSP owners you haveto split, but a lot of them
started out as technical people.
I never wanted to do sales.
I didn't have the skill set forit, I wasn't equipped for it.
It still is consistently themost challenging part for us is,
you know, we do great and getreferrals and all that kind of
stuff, but like the actual saleshas been a learning experience.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I've known you for the last three or four years
now and I would say early onwhen I met you.
First of all, you're veryoutgoing.
You have no problem striking upa conversation, asking a
question, and so it'sinteresting you say you're not a
salesperson but you have someof the sales characteristics
right, Like you could go to thebar or a dinner or meet some
(10:52):
stranger and start talking techwith them.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I can.
That is a learned trait.
I used to and I'll censor thiswhen I was programming.
I used to say that I chose mycareer with malicious
forethought so that I coulddress casually and be a jerk to
people, and it was part of thecourse, right?
Because who thinks programmersare nice guys?
No one.
And so I was extremelyintroverted, a wallflower kind
(11:16):
of person.
So the idea of going up andtalking to people is something
I've learned to do over theyears.
I spent a lot of time in BNI.
That's why BNI is great for alot of things, especially when
you're starting out.
The clients we got out of BNI.
You know they got us to wherewe are, but they're not actually
the clients we need goingforward.
But I learned a lot of thingsabout networking and interacting
with people and working on thatkind of stuff, and that was
very beneficial to me.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Talk about the business growing.
You talked a little bit abouthow it took you a little bit of
time to get that second client,but how long did it take you to
get the third client and thefourth client?
And then when did you start torealize, well, we need more
staff and we've got to continueto grow.
Just what was that evolutionlike?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So I mean it was slow growth at first.
We grow consistently, but ittook a while because we weren't
sure about a pricing scheme andall the normal stuff you start
out with a business.
We started getting somemomentum and then six and a half
years six and a half years agowe hired our first employee.
Since we started, my dad and Istarted together.
There was already two of us.
We overcame that first hurdleof needing to add that first
(12:15):
person on, because now there'salready two of us, but of course
we weren't really making a lotof money that time, that point
in time.
But we needed a employee thereto basically be there all the
time as a tech, so that we coulddo the networking and all other
stuff we were doing and stillhave the phone manned.
And so we hired a guy who wentto church with me.
It was a great fit.
In a lot of ways it was a greatfirst employee.
(12:36):
But when he left he told mesomething that I found very
gratifying, which is he's likeyou know, before I went to work
for you I thought I wanted tostart my own business.
Now I realize I do not, andthat's a compliment.
Well, it's harder than peoplethink, right.
They think oh it's going to beeasy, and it is not easy.
Right, it is really not easy.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I think that's what's great about you, Benji, is
you're a pretty transparentperson.
So talk a little bit about theculture.
Right?
You're starting to hireemployees.
I mean, it's you and your dadand your dad.
First of all, I love my dad,and we agree some days and we
don't agree other days, so thathad to be an interesting dynamic
.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
It can be, and we've been told by staff several times
.
We argue too loudly a lot, yeah, but it's nice.
I mean I have friends that havecome from families they could
not trust to run their businesswith never been a problem for me
.
You know the fact that thismatter is like my parents we may
disagree on things, but I knowthey always have my best
interests at heart and so itmakes it easy in that regard.
(13:35):
But the culture has been.
I've been very intentionalabout that.
In 2018, I went through goldmansachs program, which I talked
about a little bit, and itreally drove home the importance
of culture, and I knew thatbecause, you know, I'd worked at
some bad places that had reallybad culture.
Yeah, and you can look them upon my LinkedIn.
Actually, one of the thingsthat really drove it home was
and this is you know, it's arelevant tangent, so I'll bring
(13:57):
it in so I lost a child.
Our third child died after afew days and so, against the
rules, my boss said go, I don'twant to see you for a month.
That was not what was allowed,right, right by corporate, but
she understood, like, theimportance of people, and I came
back a month later she sent mehome again after I cussed out
(14:17):
someone on a phone call and so Iwas not ready to be back at the
office, yeah, and so I realizedthat I wanted to build a place
fairly early on.
That really was about thepeople involved and gave them a
place like a refuge to be people, and so I always kind of built
the culture with that in mind.
I distinctly remember one timein tech you get a lot of men,
(14:38):
right, let's just be honestright, most of your employees
are going to be guys, and a lotof times, if you're not careful,
it can turn into bro culture.
And so a couple of my techswere joking around and they
started the that's what she saysjoke and it really irked me,
and it really irked me a lot,and I turned around and said
guys, you've got to stop Like,this is not acceptable here.
(14:58):
I don't know why I feel thisstrongly about it, but this is
not going to fly and I will fireyou.
And I never, I never threatenedmy employees, but I, I will
fire you if you continue it.
That was flat and they didn'tlike they, they, oh okay, I'm
sorry, but I realized later onit was, you know like when I
really had to under reflect onit it was, it was because it
wasn't.
You know it's.
It's not the kind of place wewant to be Like we want to.
(15:19):
You know that've always triedto build culture around people
and valuing people, because sooften in life that's not the
case, especially in our world.
I see it so often in my MSPs inmy area that just treat their
employees like dirt, treat themlike disposable cogs, and I
(15:41):
think that's morally wrong, andso that's what I'm trying to
stop.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah, I think that comes from part of your.
You know the way you wereraised and, obviously, the
family.
You're a family man, right, andyou have.
You're a churchgoer, like youabsolutely have your feet on the
solid ground, right.
That this is what it shouldfeel like to come to work.
It should be a safe space,right, we're going to have good
(16:05):
days, we're going to have baddays, but you just need to set
the ground rules, set theboundaries, because you know
it's okay to blow off steam andget frustrated, but not not
disrespect.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yes, it's.
Let's be honest, it'sfrustrating.
Right?
You're going to deal withcustomers that are upset, and
they're generally not upset atyou.
Yeah, they're so sad and that'sokay.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
So you mentioned this a couple of times 2018, you
attended the Goldman Sachs10,000 small business program.
Yes, what impact did that haveon your business?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
That's probably the single greatest impact I've ever
had of anything.
My business is like flat noholds barred.
It took me from being atechnician to a business owner.
If you ever have anyone who'swatching this has a chance to do
this program, you a hundredpercent need to do it.
It's a great program, put puton my Goldman Sachs, a bunch of
other people that collaboratetogether, and it's designed to
basically take small businessowners, who are generally good
at the thing they sell but notgood at being a business owner,
(16:55):
and turn them into a businessowner.
Think about it as a businessowner instead of the profession.
You are right, and that was anabsolutely amazing journey.
It was really hard, like threemonths of super condensed
learning while you're running abusiness.
That was rough, but it wasreally beneficial to me.
It made me confident that, nomatter what, I may not achieve
(17:15):
mega success in the world'sterms, but I can run a business.
I'm confident we're going tosucceed.
It may not be as fast as I wantsometimes, but we'll continue
to see and grow.
It gave me the tools to makethat happen.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
About this time you took over as CEO, but your dad
didn't want to step out, thoughno, he's still there today.
And how did this happen and howdid you manage it without sort
of awkwardness at that time?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Well, it's kind of gradual.
After I did the Almost TaxProgram I more and more took the
lead and stuff and it's verygradual.
But everyone all the employeesalways knew we were very clear
up front that like, while my dad, Ken, may have been running the
company at that point in time,officially, it was always gonna
be me stepping in right, and soeveryone knew this was gonna
happen.
It's a matter of when it wasgonna happen.
And so it was very, even thoughI wasn't officially the CEO, it
(18:04):
kind of ran thatFO role helikes playing with data and
numbers and so I just took overthe official title of running
the business.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
So how did you?
I know you talked a little bitabout the Goldman Sachs program
helping you think more like abusiness owners, but how did you
actually transition from thetechnical work to the business
management?
What?
How'd you learn those softskills?
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So when I was working for Brother, I was in charge of
mentoring.
I was a senior developer inNorth and South America and so I
was in charge of mentoring andbuilding the team in a lot of
ways as well as doing the actualtechnical work.
So it kind of started there andI'd always worked on it and
stuff.
I enjoy solving puzzles andstuff, but at the end of the day
you're doing the same thingover and over again because
(18:46):
computers act in the same manner.
It's not squirrely sometimes,but by and large the same manner
.
But people are endlesslyinventive, right.
People are endlessly and I likenew things.
So therefore I really startedenjoying dealing with people in
a lot of ways.
They're always a new challenge,right.
It can be frustrating, don't getme wrong.
There are days when I'm like ohmy gosh.
But dealing with people is kindof the ultimate thing and it
(19:09):
stretches me, it does wear meout.
It's not my natural inclination, but I understood that if I was
going to grow the business, theway I needed to identified at
the time was me killing myselfby working too much, and so,
(19:29):
like I was working 100 hourweeks for months straight and
they're like you've got to stop,you've got to stop.
And when I realized they'reright, I've got to stop, I got
to slow down.
Then it's a matter of affordingpeople to hand it off to.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Yeah, so how'd you do that?
I mean, how do you approachthis new work-life balance?
And again, I've gotten to knowyou uh, you have, you have six
kids.
Obviously you've got your handsfull, but how?
Do you, how do you, how do youshed some of that?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So it's actually I love work, like, like I um, you
know, like I love, I love work.
I love hard work, physical, Idon't know.
It's part of who I am.
I have a drive to do things,and so it's been difficult in a
lot of ways.
I slowed it down.
It's kind of gradual over time.
Stepping back was difficult.
It really wasn't.
That's.
Every entrepreneur goes throughthis Handing things off,
(20:16):
trusting someone to do the jobfor you.
It really drove home one daywhen one of the guys had done
something and he did a betterjob at it than I would have.
I'm like, okay, that's it.
I don't have to be the final ofall knowledge.
I don't have to be like I'mhiring people, hopefully, who
are better at doing the thingthan I am, yep, you know, and my
job is to give them guidance asneeded, and so that's what I
shoot for I have the samechallenge that you do.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's like I don't know if it was the way I was
raised or just my aggressivenessin the situation is if you want
something done, right, you gotto do it yourself Right.
But that's not the answer.
When you have a million things,you're responsible for Right
Work until you're done.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Whatever that looks like I get it from my farming
grandparents.
Yeah, you know, when there'swork to do, you work.
Yeah, it doesn't matter howtired you are.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
You work until the work's done.
What are you the most proud ofover the last handful of years?
Obviously, I know you're notdone growing, you're not done
transforming your MSP, but whatare you the most proud of?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
The team we've assembled is amazing.
It really is.
They're a great group of people.
It's been fun learning over theyears who's going to work in an
organization, who's not goingto work in an organization.
But one of the things we reallytalk about is care and
compassion and empathy, and wehave an amazing group of people
who are technical in natureright, they do a technical job
(21:31):
but they also understand thevalue of human beings and
showing caring and compassionand empathy to people.
I've always wanted to buildsomething like you know, like
the Ritz-Carlton kind of thing,where people are empowered to
solve problems.
It may not be technicalproblems, but problems people
have, and so they'll do thingsand they'll tell me about it.
One of our customers was doingtheir annual or biannual audit
of the thing they've got atPlotnitz and they were having a
(21:53):
rough time getting through it,and so I think it brought them
pizza.
We had someone whose mother wasin the hospital and they were
in Nashville, so they boughtthem gas cards to help pay for
the gas, because they're doingtrips two or three times a week.
It's ways of caring for eachother and caring for our
customers and, in addition tosolving their technical problems
, being great on the technicalside too, but just being good
with people.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
There's something neat about you that I thought
I'd mention on the podcast.
Not too many people do this,but you are a good listener.
You listen to people talk aboutoh I like this author, or I
like this topic, or read thisbook and you have a knack for
sending people a copy of a bookthat you thought they might
value.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Why do you do that Knowledge?
And long ago, when I was young,I thought I had to come up with
all this stuff on my own.
I don't know where I got thatidea, but when I realized that
people have tread this pathbefore and there's wisdom to be
waiting, like, I want to spreadthat so that it makes everyone's
lives better.
Right, like, if you canshortcut me, if I can read your
story or read something thatyou've written, it's going to
(22:53):
help me shortcut something.
And I don't have to, like, doall the hard work myself,
because there's plenty of hardwork to do even further down the
road.
Right, I will gladly do that.
And so I want people to youknow, have the same benefits
that I can.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Like whenever I can provide them.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
We all grow together.
The rising tide lifts all boatsright and I want to help be
that kind of rising tide.
Help good people, you know, dogood things.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Yeah, that's what I really love about you, ben.
You definitely are a uniquesoul and it's interesting, the
people that you do interact with, guys like Jimmy, guys like
Boyd I always hear them bringyour name up and it's always
positive, right?
Oh, I had this conversation,man.
What Benji said was reallyinteresting, so you definitely
have an impact on folks, forsure.
So what's next for you, benji?
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Oh, what's next for me?
I mean, this month I plan ontaking a lot of time off.
Actually, good for you, spendtime with the family, although
you know, life always intrudes,you know.
But for me, you know, it'sreally about being more
comfortable with who I am.
Earlier this year I didsomething that may sound
horrible to people.
It may sound great, but I tooka think week, modeled after Bill
(24:00):
Gates' think weeks, and I wentto a cabin in the woods and it
was the most refreshing timeI've had in my life and I was
there by myself, which I'm anintrovert, so it was great.
I did miss the kids, especiallyat the first couple days,
because I live in a house of sixkids and it's insane all the
time.
It was a little weird.
Having quiet time, yeah, but Iwould get up in the morning, eat
some breakfast, go for a hike.
(24:20):
I love hiking, hiking and then,since it's Alabama and it's
January, it could be 30 degrees,it could be 80 degrees.
Luckily it was more like the 70, 80 range.
It was beautiful weather on thetrails by myself, because it's
the middle of January and theweek I wouldn't see another soul
and I'd hike for three, fourhours, go back, eat some lunch
and crack open a business bookand read until I went to bed
(24:41):
that night and just think andponder and pray and do things
that just really replenish mysoul.
And that was amazing and itreally helped me understand that
I've got to take better care ofmyself.
I'm the kind of person whotraditionally would not do a
good job of that, but that if Iwant to be the man I need to be
for my family and for myemployees, that I've got to take
(25:01):
a better care of myself, and sothat's kind of what I'm working
on now.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I'm glad to hear that I want that as well.
So what's next for SawyerSolutions?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, I had this really crazy idea that I'm
rethinking.
I was working with a salescoach and she was great.
Last year we had completed ourfirst 10X.
So we started the company.
We made $160,000 the first year.
Last year we made $1.8 millionand so that was 10x bigger than
we were when we started.
It took us 10 years to getthere.
I'm like great.
So I just finished reading DanSullivan's 10x is Easier Than 2x
.
It's a great book.
All of Dan Sullivan's books aregreat.
(25:33):
And I was like what's our next10x going to be?
What are we going to do here?
And I was talking to her aboutit and I was like, yeah, we can
do it eight years.
And it's like you're reallycomfortable with eight years.
Why don't you push it further?
I'm like I'm comfortable eightyears.
The math adds up, I can do itpretty easily in eight years, I
think.
So I decided I would try topush it to six years.
So that was this year's goal,was like kind of launch that off
(25:53):
.
And after doing that, I'm notsure I want to do that Like I
want to be Right.
And then how fast, how mucheffort I want to put into
getting there Right.
How much sacrifice is worth it.
Right, I have six kids.
My oldest is now 17.
She turns 18 in January.
Our youngest two are turningfive in a month.
There's only so much time withthem, right, I can.
I can build a bigger businesslater.
(26:15):
Right, and I've missed a lot oftheir times.
Sure, I sacrificed a lot to, toto get the business to where it
is, and so I'm really takingtime to think like, what is it I
really want to do?
Yeah, and rethink my plans, andI'm probably right now, which I
may change, but right now I'mleaning towards you know what?
It's okay to be smaller.
I can be a small big.
You know, a small giant if youwill have an outsized impact,
(26:40):
one of the things that IT hasdelivered Oftentimes you know
this because I'm not wearing it,but I have the no-jerk shirt,
which is infamous around Enable.
One of our core values is ifyou're a jerk, it ain't going to
work, and we mean that for ourcustomers.
We mean that for our employees,because often, too often, in
our industry, people are justtalked down to, they're
belittled, they are made to feelsmall because they don't know
(27:01):
something that the techniciandoes, and that's wrong, morally
and ethically wrong, and so Iwant a mission to change that
about our industry, to make itso.
The industry is one of actualservice.
Right, we are providing aservice to people.
Technology is how we'redelivering this, like it's
around that, but it's to apeople.
Right, we were doing this topeople, for people, and we need
to take that into account.
And so, you know, our actualmission is to change the way
(27:28):
that technology is delivered sothat it's one done with caring
and compassion, and so that's abig, lofty mission.
And I just I'm just stillgetting like that's not the
finished, polished version ofthe mission statement.
I'm still working on that, butlike, but it's okay if it takes
a while to get there.
We're not the only ones Like I'mnot saying that we're the only
ones who had this idea.
Cause I know we're not likemost, most of my, like my
friends that I've met throughthese enable events.
We all share the same idea inthis regard.
I'm just the one who's mostopenly talking about it and so
(27:49):
you know it'd be easier to makethat impact if I was a hundred
million dollar company.
But I've also got to balancethat against the actual personal
weight and measurements, whatit's going to do my personal
life.
So I don't really know what'sexactly next, except for I want
to keep pushing down the road oftrying to show people that this
is how it should be done.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Have you started to think at all about the long,
long-term plan, like where youwant this to go?
I mean, there was a successionplan for you.
Is that what you think might be?
Speaker 1 (28:20):
there for I mean, your kids are young, right?
Yeah, well, I mean, they havean age range.
The plan's always been, in thiscase it's to make it a
lifestyle business.
I don't really plan on sellingit anytime soon, yeah, but to
potentially, you know, have itwhere the kids can take over if
they want to I?
There are other businesses outthere that I really admire.
There's one who's turned hisbusiness recently into an esop
and so the employees can cantake ownership of it.
(28:40):
There's another business it'sactually a crane business out of
out of memphis.
They turned themselves into anon-profit.
Half their profit every year isreserved for growth of the
company and half their profit isdonated to charities.
Wow, and the owners, like whenthey started what the owners
bought it out from their dad andwhen they took over they set
their how much money they'd evermake and like that's been it
and so like they're they're notcashing in, like they're in,
(29:03):
they're very free how much moneythey have and stuff.
There's lots of options andthat kind of thing for me to
figure out.
I don't really have a drivingurge to work on that right now,
but I do think about it fromtime to time.
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
So the last question I want to ask you is when did
you know?
Now that's it.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
So I was driving from Memphis when we first started
doing this.
I was still working for Brother, and so I'd drive from Memphis
to Birmingham to do things.
I had a lot of time banked andstuff.
And so I remember driving downthe road and, as you mentioned,
I'm a man of faith and I waslike is this really it?
I have this long prayer becauseit's four hours in the car by
myself and a guy would answerthis is it?
I'm like are you really sure?
(29:39):
And the guy answered yes.
I'm like, okay, then I will dothis until you tell me otherwise
.
And so that's when I realizedthat's it.
I'm doing this until I'm toldotherwise.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
So great, benji, it was a real pleasure having you
this week.
I am so honored to have met youin the last couple of years and
gotten to know you well.
Thank you so much for beingwith us.
Thank you very much.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.